Romeo Relieved of Duties, Cowher Says, "No"
by Chris Pokorny on Dec 29, 2008 10:59 AM EST
in General News
168 comments
Cleveland Browns head coach Romeo Crennel has been relieved of his duties, according to team spokesman Bill Bonsiewsicz. According to Adam Caplan of Scout.com, the organization still owes Crennel about $9.8 million. What does the future hold for Crennel? Some Denver Broncos fans might be interested in him becoming their new defensive coordinator.
BREAKING 10:40 AM: According to Tony Rizzo of WKNR, Bill Cowher turned down Randy Lerner's offer on Saturday. Rizzo also reported that Phil Savage was fired on Saturday, prior to the final game against the Steelers.
UPDATE 11:00 AM: As for Randy Lerner's press conference, here is a brief recap, thanks to the Plain Dealer's reporting:
- One of the primary purposes of the press conference was to announce that Crennel had indeed been fired.
- He confirmed Rizzo's report that Cowher turned down his offer. Cowher, as he has said all season, told Lerner that he is not interested in coaching in 2009.
- Lerner has already asked for permission to speak with the Patriots' Scott Pioli. Filling the GM role is Lerner's primary objective, obviously.
- Lerned also stated that he requrested permission to speak with another NFL executive. However, that person was unnamed.
I know fans were very disappointed with how things went down this season. I think that by Lerner acting so quickly, he is again trying to "save" the organization. After all -- that stadium needs to be filled for eight games next season, right?
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The PD has an article about this already. They also reported that Lerner said he was going to ask permission to speak with Scott Pioli, and he’ll focus on filling the GM role before finding a coach.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
Thanks for the link — I’ve updated the main post accordingly.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
by Chris Pokorny on Dec 29, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
It looks like Cowher was not just going through the motions for the past two months in saying that he didn’t want the job. It may legitimately be true that he simply does not want to coach this year.
It’ll be interesting to see who the other Executive is. Other than that, I’m glad Lerner is taking such a proactive stance towards all of this. It’s how he will be able to rebuild some measure of confidence in the team.
by DisplacedBuckeye on Dec 29, 2008 11:08 AM EST reply actions
i’m starting to think that cowher may take the Jets job, but that’s just me playing mind games w/ myself.
on cowher and the poll question, i’m not that bummed. if you look at it from a returns perspective, cowher would have cost $9mm, plus you have to hire a personnel guy to create a belichick-pioli model. so, let’s say it costs you $10mm to get a HC + personnel guy. w/ pioli and coach X, it’s more like $6mm, and you can use that other $4mm to lure a big name coordinatore (mangini) and other established coaches to help beef up a potentially inexperienced HC’s cred in the locker room. i think that’s a better investment, personally.
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 29, 2008 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
So the big question that jumps out at me is: who’s the other unnamed executive? Parcells would be the fantasy answer to that question. More realistically would seem to be Chris Polian with the Colts, he’s also on the wish list of the Chiefs.
As an aside, if you’re asking for permission to interview someone for a position that would constitute a promotion, the request has to be granted.
and, importantly, the browns can offer pioli a promotion, as belichick currently maintains final say over the roster. if we’re willing to give that to pioli, they have to let him speak with us.
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 29, 2008 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
i don’t mean to turn this thread into something it’s not intended to be, so, chris, feel free to move this, but i’m going to weigh in w/ a prediction for 2009:
GM: Scott Pioli
HC: Josh McDaniels
DC: Eric Mangini
Jets HC: Bill Cowher
Jets QB: Brett Favre
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 29, 2008 11:48 AM EST reply actions
Heh…everything except the Cowher one ;) For him to tell the Browns’ owner “he’s not interested in coming back for 2009” only to come back with a different team wouldn’t make sense, publicity-wise. If he just didn’t want the Browns’ job, I’m sure he would’ve said so.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
by Chris Pokorny on Dec 29, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Whoops.
There was just a line on ESPN’s ticker that said something about Cowher being willing to interview for the Jets’ job…
I wasn’t in the camp of those begging for Cowher to come here, nor was I vehemently against the idea. And Kosar’s comments about Cowher wanting to pass on the Cleveland job because he didn’t want to go up against Dan Rooney and the organization that gave him his big break, well, if true that gave Cowher a bit more respect in my book.
But all that respect will be lost if he told Randy Lerner to his face that he was not interested in coaching in 2009, and then would accept a job with the Jets, or any other franchise for that matter. Cowher could have said that he’s not interested in coaching the Browns in ‘09, and it’d be over and done with.
If he told Lerner that he doesn’t want to coach in 2009, and then does coach in 2009, he’s a liar and nothing more.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
Clayton is reporting that the Jets-Cowher rumor is bogus. Cowher is not coaching next year.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 30, 2008 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Peter King has a story today that says Cowher absolutely will not come back in 2009 unless some team overwhelms him with an offer. When he left the Steelers, he told them he didn’t want to coach again until his youngest daughter graduates from high school and she’s a senior right now.
He also wrote this about Cowher and the Browns:
I’m also told reliably that if there was a job out there Cowher would have loved to consider, it was the Browns job. The fact he turned down the Browns’ job almost without thinking Saturday night in a face-to-face meeting with owner Randy Lerner tells you everything you need to know about his unwillingness to return in 2009. Cowher, a former Cleveland player and assistant coach, loves the tradition of the Browns and the passion of their fan base, but it just wasn’t the right time for him.
I found that very interesting. Some people thought Cowher wouldn’t come back to the Browns because he didn’t want to be in the same division as the Steelers, but evidently that wasn’t true. If Crennel had lasted one more year, we might have been able to get Cowher next year.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
You might not want to be enamored with Belichick disciples
Two of them just got fired today (Mangini and Crennel) and another should have been (Weis). Belichick disciples are really sexy hires, but are they effective without Belichick?
Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history
It is a disturbing trend. Its enough to keep me away from Mangini as Head Coach and McDaniels as Head Coach, but I’m still interested in Pioli.
if pioli thinks that one of those guys is the right pick, i’ll trust him.
what would you think of mangini as a DC?
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 29, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
That I’d trust to the new coach or GM. Mangini doesn’t really excite me, but he has a decent resume. I wouldn’t be upset with him as DC. I’d much prefer someone from Rex Ryan or Dick Labeau’s respective staffs.
as i say this, i just read the boston herald story that suggests pioli would hire kirk ferentz…in which case…Randy, who’s next on your GM list??!? i trust you Scott, but not that much.
how about Shanahan being fired? i think Dogg could rush for 681 yards in his scheme, anyone have Shanny’s number?
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 30, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
I’m glad we can finally put the Cowher thing to bed. He’s got a great gig with CBS where he shows up once a week, talks for a couple hours and then goes home to his new house in North Carolina to be with his family. Frankly, I think he’s a pretty smart guy and he knows he has it pretty good without all the constant stress of having to be the coach 24/7/365.
Would Pioli really want to come here though?
I mean, depending on who you ask, anywhere from 10-75 of the roster needs to be shown the door. We’re talking a total tear down or close to one, and not even having a 3rd or 5th round picks out of the gate.
I’d say he’d only really look at the job if he wanted a challenge or someone drove up to his house with the largest pile of cash.
Bill Cowher = victory
count me as one who doesn’t think we need a total tear down. Besides maybe the Jets, I’d think the Browns job will be the most compelling to guys like Pioli. You can’t tell me the Chiefs, the Lions, the Rams, etc. have anything that compares to Sean Rogers, Brady Quinn, Eric Wright, Joe Thomas and Erich Steinbach as a core 5 guys. Really, Savage left us with quality players at the positions you build teams around and some talent and assets (DA) elsewhere on the roster just waiting to be maximized by a new GM and coach.
If I’m a guy like Pioli or Cowher or someone that is going to be in high demand, you have to look at the Browns situation and think you have some good to work with. Plus, I fully believe that Lerner will be more than competitive in paying for these top guys. And with Savage gone, any and all control is available. This isn’t saying that the new management team won’t have lots of work to do, but it is to say that compared with other available jobs, this one must look promising to the best candidates out there.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 29, 2008 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec.
Well said. The chances of coming in and fielding a competitive team are as high here as almost any other available position.
Lerner will lose ~$10M to firing Crennel and lost (I think) ~$12M in firing Davis. He very much wants to find the right people to field a competitive team and he’s willing to pay to make it happen.
Lerner only has himself to blame. Nobody pointed a gun at his head and made him give Crennel four years at the end of last season.
by woodsmeister on Dec 30, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
i think we needed a total tear down of leadership. savage and romeo had lost this organization, which was exacerbated by all the losing.
but in the NFL you’re only ever one season away from competitiveness. we have a couple of anchors (only a couple) around which you can build, and if the browns can smartly acquire a couple of key pieces then they could return to respectability pretty quickly. i lost faith that savage and crennell could be smart about those acquisitions, but i’m anxious to see how pioli does.
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 29, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly. The Browns have a good foundation; people seem to forget that this team won 10 games just a year ago. Sure, that was with an easy schedule, but there is talent here. A few personnel moves and some good coaching can get this team back on track.
Chris Mortenson kept repeating on ESPN today that people he talked to in the leauge said the Browns were a very attractive job because they have the cornerstone pieces in place; a young QB, a left tackle, a defensive tackle, and a cornerback. Those are the key positions in the NFL that teams try to fill first, and the Browns have that. Add that with a owner who’s willing to spend money and a rabid fan base, and the Browns are a very attractive job. Anyone who thinks this team needs to be torn apart and rebuilt isn’t paying attention — the Browns definately has more talent than Miami and Atlanta had last year.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 29, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think there are a lot of talented players on this team—as has been discussed ad nauseum here—and agree that we have to be up there on the list of available jobs. I believe this will go in the books as the worst year of Braylon Edwards’ career and he will return to his all-pro form in the near future. Winslow might not have many years left on his knee, but he can make plays. The only challenge on our roster is the salary cap, but anyone with a brain and some knowledge of cap rules should be able to take care of that without a whole host of trouble.
Pioli does not have the final say on “the 53” right now, and it would be enough of a perk to pique his interest at worst. The Plain Dealer reports he is “very interested”, but the PD reports a lot of things.
I hope we can land him, and think we will.
Parcells is another intriguing option, as the Dolphins might be for sale(?) and he might not want to go through that. Parcells is taking his name out of the hat for all jobs where he could compete with Pioli (his son in law). If he becomes available we should make up a new position or re-introduce the position of Team President to land him in some fashion.
Draft season is right around the corner.
Kosar is running off at the mouth (pontificating) on WTAM now (he must have started drinking early today). He is helping Randy as a friend (now WE are in our 40s and smarter than before – Randy was listening to everbody and not getting it right).
Kosar says Savage ran a rudderless ship because he was always out of the office scouting. He tried to do too many things — should have stuck with the things he was good at.
You mean like picking players? Shoot, what’s the GM’s job, again? Oh yeah, to pick players.
I guess Savage should have been practicing his Blue Steal look for the Browns franchise instead. We all know that’s what Kevin Colbert and Ozzie Newsome do…
(this is not a critique of you, but of the idea that Phil failed at some mis-cast role as “Face of the Franchise”)
If anything, Savage’s failure was trying to fill that role. His press conferences were awkward at times, and he shouldn’t have even held them. That was Romeo’s role, to be the experienced and accountable head of the team and conduit for the media, with Savage as the “mad scientist” behind the scenes. I think he only held those regular press conferences out of a bit of hubris, and also b/c of how ineffective Romeo was at it.
I think that idea stems from some of the poor PR moves Phil exercised towards the end, but the extent of its validity is limited to his failures as the President/CEO of the organization. Don’t forget he was originally hired with Collins on board in that CEO role, and then expanded his responsibilities after he won the power struggle. I think the reason he was fired was that Lerner saw him neglecting those duties (presumably because he was trying to do two people’s jobs).
Perhaps, but that is still Lerner’s fault. Being in charge of all personel decisions is enough of a job. Plus, I always thought after Collins’ departure Lerner was assuming that CEO role himself, not adding it to Savage’s plate.
It still doesn’t take away the fact that the coach is the highest public figure as it is in all other successful organizations (Cowher, Tomlin, Billick, Harbaugh, Reid, Belichick, Coughlin, Dungy, etc etc etc).
Agreed. Savage took over as “franchise face” at least partly because Crennel was so terrible at it.
I do think, though, that much of Savage’s issues were of his own making in assuming too much power. He definitely gave off a power hungry vibe at times. There wasn’t necessarily anything wrong with that, but he seemed to neglect some portions of his responsibility.
The best run organizations
A) Make sure that only one person speaks publicly on a regular basis and B) make sure that said person is good at doing so. There is too much margin of error when two different people are asked the same questions and awkwardly step on each other, or avoid doing do by sidestepping questions. You’ve seen it with Jerry Jones/Wade Phillips and then with Savage/Crennel; the Bears had that problem with Jerry Angelo and of course, your standard Al Davis/anyone.
That doesn’t mean that others aren’t in power in some fashion or aren’t involved as they should be. Make no mistake, Dan Rooney knows everything that goes on and understands the top down. Also, Kevin Colbert has a vital role. But if you want a smooth operation where problems and differences are handled properly behind closed doors, Organization 101 teaches us to have one regular spokesman, the head coach, who has the skill to do so and represent the organization respectfully.
Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history
I say Triv is an idiot. Therefore, I am more insightful than Triv.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 29, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
A rock is more insightful than Triv.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 29, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
What the hell are you talking about? Igneous rocks are much, much dumber than sedimentary rocks.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 29, 2008 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly what I’d expect to hear out of some ill-informed, clastic dufus. Leave the thinking to your metamorphic cousins.
/unnecessary geological references
Metamorphic — now those are some dumb rocks.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Rec. Rec. Rec. Rec. Rec. I’m debating signing up for more accounts on SBN just to rec this more often.
by Fundamentals on Dec 29, 2008 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
Savage Screwed
I hope the Ravens pick him up..again. He a great judge of talent and it’s dead on that he had to do 2 peoples jobs in Cleveland. Romeo was in over his head and Savage spent valuable time bailing his ass out. Whether in the media, player/coach issues and general PR under a freak owner, Savage had his hands running over with tasks. In Baltimore, Ozzie is never seen or heard from. Occasionally, you’ll see him cruising around with the owner in his golf cart. You won’t see him in front of the camera explaining why the coach zigged and zagged.
Savage should thank Lerner for firing him and saving his health. The Browns had talent in a lot of places but the play calling was a joke..and flat out stupid. Romeo was just a big wish who flopped and will never hold a head coaching job again. Savage will recover and either end up with a winner or create one without Mr. Burns staring through his tinted skybox window. Savage was probably control hungry. He saw the way out and had to watch the rest of the train wreck before him. What a mess. With all the front office vacancies and the unwillingness of free agents to play in Cleveland, the Browns won’t be heard from for at least 4 years. The talent was there for a good team.
A lot of ignorance in this post...
I hope the Ravens pick him up..again. He a great judge of talent and it’s dead on that he had to do 2 peoples jobs in Cleveland. Romeo was in over his head and Savage spent valuable time bailing his ass out.
He can judge talent. He can’t run an organization. Romeo actually had to bail his ass out after Savage made a fool of himself by sending that email.
Savage should thank Lerner for firing him and saving his health. The Browns had talent in a lot of places but the play calling was a joke..and flat out stupid.
I get really sick of blanket statements like this. Prove why the playcalling was a joke. It’s not easy calling plays, and there is much more to it than Joe Armchair thinks.
What a mess. With all the front office vacancies and the unwillingness of free agents to play in Cleveland, the Browns won’t be heard from for at least 4 years.
The Ravens would like that. Unfortunately, it isn’t very true. There is no unwillingness of free agents to play in Cleveland. That is a fallacy. And the Browns have an awful amount of talent on this team. Very similar to the Ravens last year actually. Except the Browns are considerably younger at a number of positions.
I would worry about your own team’s future. They aren’t getting any younger on defense. They better make something worthwhile happen this postseason, because there is not a bright future in Baltimore.
by gahnki on Dec 29, 2008 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, I’m a Savage apologist, but some of these comments are silly.
Savage should thank Lerner for firing him and saving his health. The Browns had talent in a lot of places but the play calling was a joke..and flat out stupid.I get really sick of blanket statements like this. Prove why the playcalling was a joke. It’s not easy calling plays, and there is much more to it than Joe Armchair thinks.
Agree with gahnki here, especially since Chud was Savage’s man. You can’t have it both ways.
With all the front office vacancies and the unwillingness of free agents to play in Cleveland, the Browns won’t be heard from for at least 4 years.
This is thoughtless panic. There is no reason to believe we can’t be competitive. All signs point to us having Pioli in short order, with plenty of time to take his pick of the litter of coaching candidates and put in place a front office to his liking. Don’t forget, Pioli has been the GM in NE for years, he’s just lacked the final authority on personnel. He’s not going to have the same kind of learning curve Savage did (and Savage walked in a did an admirable job for the most part, even without picking his head coach). Savage was able to attract quality free agents, and so will Pioli (although Pioli has a lot more talent but a lot less cap space to work with than Phil did, so it’s a bit apples and oranges.)
I agree with a lot of this. I’ve said it elsewhere, but Savage will definitely win a Super Bowl somewhere, and probably as a head of the organization.
We give Lerner too much credit as owner willing to spend and allowing his people to manage. He inherited a fortune from daddy and throws money at problems. Not that daddy knew anything about running a sports franchise.
Employing lousy management is the Lerner hallmark. Firing the wrong people is the Lerner hallmark.
Savage will be earning kudos elsewhere for a long long time. We won’t care if Lerner hires someone equally capable, though. What are the chances of that? Is Savage perfect? No. Is Savage a finished product? No.
You will now observe Lerner chasing the next hot fad and tossing mega millions at people to show his love for all things Browns. He is the anti Rooney.
In summation, Randy Lerner is a dolt who was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.
by elsandito on Dec 29, 2008 9:54 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Lets see what the Lerner family has done so wrong.
They brought in Carmen Policy to oversee the return of the franchise. There isn’t enough space here for me to explain why the first management team failed, but it wasn’t because Policy didn’t know how to win in the NFL. He made a poor choice in Dwight Clark, but Policy was a good choice unless you don’t want a man who was part of Super Bowls in San Fran.
He then brought in Butch Davis. Butch Davis was at the helm of one of the greatest revivals in all of college football. When he took over at Miami, they were in big trouble. Maybe you forget the SI cover that said “Why the University of Miami should drop football”. He has the experience for working with Jimmy Johnson and had just created the most dominant college football team I had ever seen. His talent evaluation at the college level was awesome. Not good, not great, but awesome. He was Nick Saban in South Florida. He was viewed as a can’t miss. How was Lerner supposed to know?
Then came Savage, a talent evauluating Guru that was the right hand man of Ozzie. Not only did he get one of the best scouting guys in football, but he stole from a rival. Then came the choice of a Defensive Coordinator that was at the side of one of footballs great minds. The man was coming off a Super Bowl and was viewed as a can’t miss. He would help turn around this franchises poor defensive numbers.
So in other words, Lerner has hired a team President that oversaw a dynasty in San Fran. He then hired a DC of a NFL Dynasty and mastermind of College program that would go one to produce an embarassing amount of NFL Pro Bowlers. Then he hired a scouting mastermind that had won a Super Bowl, and a DC of a mulitiple Super Bowl winning team.
What else is Lerner to do? I am all for pointing the finger at a poor owner, but Lerner is not that. He has spent lavishly in FA that he has gotten little to nothing from some(Bentley and Baxter) and has continued to spend big without bitching. Think about how many other teams would kill for an owner that spends like Lerner. Who was the last big FA that Kansas City signed? Or the Bills? He has stayed off of Sportscenter by not saying dumb shit (ala Jerry Jones). Lerner is a great owner and has done nothing to show other wise.
by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 29, 2008 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Thank you, thank you, thank you. It’s easy to say after a coach/GM fails that the owner shouldn’t have hired that guy, but who was saying that at the time? Which fans were complaining about Savage when he was hired? I’m guessing nobody was. So you can’t complain now that Lerner doesn’t hire the right people. You don’t know if a guy will suceed in a job until you give him the chance; some time it doesn’t work out. That doesn’t mean the owner made a poor decision.
I really don’t know what else people want Lerner to do. The amount of people ripping him is ridiculous. He hires good people, spends money on players, then gets out of the way — what more do you want from an owner?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 29, 2008 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think that anyone here can honestly say that they felt like Butch Davis was a bad hire after his first two years. He was a much better gameday coach than Crenell. I wonder what he could have done with the roster we currently have now or how he would have done working with Savage.
It was is truly awful personel decisions that did him in along with the back and forth with Couch and Holcomb. He is why I’m leery of giving any coach total control. I don’t want another coach/GM that accidentally drafts a player looking at prison time for armed robbery (Jeramiah Pharms….).
How can anyone rec this?
Lerner is a fan. He hires like a fan not a businessman. Your a fan, so naturally you agree with his selections. I’ll readily admit that as a fan I liked the Davis, Savage, and Crennel hires. (I was never liked Policy since I always believed that he was the one that ran the 49ers into the ground). But there is one big difference between us as fans and Lerner as a fan. He gets to interview these guys! He gets to ask them questions on philosophy and more importantly process. The cornerstone of any good business or sports franchise is a sound and fundamental process with which to do business. The outcomes may vary, but as long as the process is sound, the success will come. The Lerner process is to spend on the flavor of the month and hope to get lucky. That process does not work, but you like it because he spends. Spending alone does not work, spedning intelligently does and Lerner has proven that is beyond him.
Oh, he has no idea. It’s much easier to second-guess someone and criticize them after the fact when things don’t work out than to come up with any ideas himself. That’s what idiot fans like him do.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
I realize I’m not going to change anyone’s mind, but I see the hire and fire pattern as an indictment of Lerner and Lerner alone. See my post in July. I have seen nothing from this season to dissuade me from this argument other than it is plainly clear that RAC and Savage don’t see eye to eye and thus one needs to go and I feel Savage has been much better at his job than RAC has been at his. In fact it was only recently that I switched on RAC as well. I know I’m in the minority, but Lerner presumably hired these guys for a reason. It is clear that Lerner wants a winning team and for that I commend him, but he obviously has no idea how to build one since he seems incapable of setting an organizational direction and sticking with it.
In case it isn’t clear, I would have a much higher opinon of Lerner if he actually didn’t fire Savage and RAC. It would signal to me that he has some idea that process to building a winning team matters more than the team’s record.
What I find interesting is that people are talking about the Brown’s jobs as being desirable because we have a OT, QB, WR, DT, and DB with which to build around. Where did all those guys come from? Savage built it. Now if Savage needed to be fired because of his email, that’s a reason I can’t argue against, but if he is fired because the team went 4-12, I put that on Lerner for not realizing you are going to heave some setbacks along the way. And really, what is the difference between the team going 4-12 and 7-9 besides numbers. Is the team any different? Wouldn’t we just be blaming a 7-9 season on injurys and schedule? Honsetly, how far was this team winning 3 more games. Baltimore, Denver, Houston, Indianpolis games all seem like winnable games to me.
It seems that Lerner had problems with Savage from the get go. He was almost canned after his first season. My guess is the only reason that Lerner did not fire him then was then Lerner would have looked silly trusting an advertising guy (Collins) over a football guy (Savage). Lerner can now do what he wanted to do then, but without looking as bad (“the Browns were 4-12, of course they had to get rid of Savage”).
Savage had his deficiencies, but these were organizational, but the organization has been a joke ever since it was reincarnated, so I can’t pin these deficiencies on Savage. The only constant through this has been Lerner. I don’t understand the Lerner defenders.
I’m pretty confused with what your point is here. Are you saying that Savage shouldn’t have been fired? Romeo? Both? Are you saying that there weren’t good enough reasons given, although there might be good enough reasons out there??
Look, do you really think Savage, Crennel, Davis interviewed in any way that would indicate their struggles in their respective roles on the Browns? Savage did some good things, he also did some idiotic things, and by the end of this season Lerner lost confidence in Crennel and Savage to be able to turn it around. Is this so unreasonable? He gave them 4 years to rebuild a team. Like Romeo said, they made some progress, but not enough to be able to continue. Nobody is accusing Savage of leaving this team with less talent than when he got here. He wasn’t good at any of the PR/face of the organization roles that Savage put himself in.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t want a Jerry Jones/Al Davis type owner. I want a guy that puts up money when needed, doesn’t complain about it, doesn’t meddle in football decisions and steps up only when things are going really badly, to make a change at the top. Lerner has done just that.
I don’t know the inner workings of the organization, so I do not know who should stay or go. I have my opionns and wishes, but I know enough to know I don’t know everything especially since I’m on the outside looking in.
What I want is a plan. I expect the owner to have a plan as to how to build a winning team and then to go hire accordingly. I really don’t care if it is a football czar or a GM-coach model, but I want it too be a plan where everyone knows his role and is working together towards building a winner. Then I want that plan to be implemented. I think all of this comes from the owner. I don’t care if it is the President or GM or coach who has the plan just as long as everyone inside knows who is leading and is in line with that plan includinag and especially the owner. I believe Lerner does not have a plan. You’re a Tribe fan and LGT reader, so you understand that this is how the Tribe has been run for years. This is also how the Steelers appear to be run as well (Tomlin hire).
My argument and frustration comes from the fact that I don’t believe Lerner has shown to have a plan and people working together. This started with Policy-Davis fueds, continued through Davis’ power grab and persisted through Collins-Savage-RAC disagreements.
A plan is what I want and what I feel Lerner has failed to deliver. Lerner is a great owner as he does not meddle and isn’t afraid to spend, but he is a poor owner as he is not a leader nor does he hire a leadr with whom he trusts.
F#&k off, go root for Buffalo then.
Just kidding of course.
by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 30, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at the thread in July is instructive. The poster’s arguments then were Savage was not very good, and the general replies were “this poster is an idiot, and probably a Steelers fan”. Six months later the general thought here is almost identical to the original posters argument, and everybody else is called idiotic.
I never wanted Savage to be fired; I thought he had done a good job bringing talent to his organization and he should stay. The problems this year have been mainly coaching. Crennel definately needed to go. Now, I’m not that upset Savage was fired, and I understand that his actions such as the email to the fan and the handling of the Winslow situation led to that decision. He didn’t seem to be the “face of the organization” which Lerner wanted. Maybe Pioli or someone can fill that role. But in the discussions we’ve had over the past couple months, I — and many others — have been arguing that Savage didn’t need to be fired, so I don’t think there has been a big change in sentiment this year.
What I don’t agree with is the criticisms of Lerner. First of all, he’s only been the owner for a few years; it was his father before that, and you can’t just lump those two together and act like they’re the same person. The owner’s job is to hire the right people then get out of the way. The hard part is finding the right people. But in hiring people to a position such as GM or coach, usually you have to take a chance. You have to hire someone who hasn’t filled that role before, so you don’t know how they’re going to do in that position. All you can do is hire someone with a good background who you hope will suceed in that new position. That’s what Lerner has done. Savage was a well-respected talent evaluator who came from a good organization. Crennel was a sucessful coach for a winning team. It’s easy to look back now and criticize those hiring, but who was doing that at the time? Unless you hire an experienced GM or coach from a winning team (and those types of guys are usually not available), you’re taking a chance. Hopefully the next guy will work for the Browns.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think Savage is horrible. He could find talent. This team is more talented than the one that he was given four years ago. But Savage did some really stupid stuff, and I can understand why he was fired. I may not agree with it, but I understand it.
ultimately I agree with this. I’m not frustrated by a 4-12 season as much as I am about blowing up and starting over. Maybe that comes from the fact that I did not have the same expectations for this team as others did and funny as it may sound, I believe this team made improvements upon last years team before the injuries really started kicking in.
i’d be interested to hear what areas/players you think improved from last year other than shaun rogers. maybe phil dawson.
plus, i think “blowing up and starting over” is a bit of an overstatement. of course, we’ve just booted the top 2 football people in the organization, but in the NFL you’re only ever a year or two (and a good schedule) away from being competitive. i trust pioli. give him a shot.
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 30, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
I think Wright, McDonald and Pool all improved. We added some young talent that needs to be coached up in Hall. We mixed in Harrison a little more and we got to see a bit of Quinn. All of this will help next year. This isn’t a superbowl team, but it is above average and I believe they are a playoff contender next year no matter who the coach is.
I’m a reasonable guy, it is overstated a bit. I just have no idea how Lerner plans to build a consistent winner when we turnover the GM and coach ever 4 years. There is some foundation, I hope that Pioli or whoever else gets the job builds on the processes that we don’t see but are used to evaluate talent and such.
Yeah, we don’t need to “blow up and start over”, and just because we’re getting a new GM and coach doesn’t mean we’ll be doing that. Once again, this is the NFL — where teams go from 1-15 to division winner in one year. It’s not like baseball, where you have to trade veteren players for prospects then wait a few years for them to mature.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
The only things Savage couldn’t do were talk to the media and send emails.
He shouldn’t have been doing either. That’s on Lerner. I think Lerner felt that Savage had to be canned because of the email.
I did not want Savage to go. I can point to very specific things while watching our defense as to why Crennel/Tucker were doing a horrible job and why at least one of them needed to go. I can make an argument as to why Savage was doing a good job with the roster, and wanted him to continue his work..
I don’t know. I didn’t do the interviewing. What I would do right now is keep Savage since it appears he implemented a relatively successful process to evaluating talent and fire RAC but that could be wrong too. I just don’t know because I don’t work for the Browns.
My argument is that there has been one constant over the last 10 years besides a losing team and that is the owner. Who in some respects is good, but in the most important is very bad. He is good in that he is willing to spend and that he does not seem to meddle where he shouldn’t. But he is also the guy that does the hiring and seems to have no idea how to do that. His hiring strategy is to poach talent from successful organizations without asking why or what makes those organizations successful. Great people in bad organizations will not succeed while bad people in great organizations will. Lerner needs to find the great in the great not just a body from the great. And even then, you need to get enough great people to change the bad organization into a successful one built on a repeatable and successful process. Lerner may eventually get there, but right now he is just as culpable and imo more so than anyone else as to why this team continues to fail.
His hiring strategy is to poach talent from successful organizations without asking why or what makes those organizations successful.
How do you know this?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
You’re right. I don’t know. It is my impression and response to
Lerner has hired a team President that oversaw a dynasty in San Fran. He then hired a DC of a NFL Dynasty and mastermind of College program that would go one to produce an embarassing amount of NFL Pro Bowlers. Then he hired a scouting mastermind that had won a Super Bowl, and a DC of a mulitiple Super Bowl winning team.
I feel that the arguement that he hired the best available and we still stink should actually be more of an indictment of Lerner rather than less of one because why have all these great hires failed. I see it as one of a two reasons
1. They weren’t actually great hires
2. They were great hires and winners but failed to be so under Lerner
I only claim that the buck ultimately stops at Lerner and that we can’t blame the first 2 years on Policy, Clark, and Palmer, then next 4 on Davis and these last 4 on Savage and RAC without blaming the guy who hired them all.
dvd, I agree with a good deal of what you’re saying, but I have a slightly different view on Savage.
It seems to me like the reason Savage got canned was because he didn’t want to cede control over the areas that he was either neglecting or failing at. It seems fair to assume that Collins was in place to provide some of that administrative duty (whatever the f that really is) while Savage was there to build the roster. Now, they had a tiff of sorts, probably because Collins was an idiot. We all cheered Savage when he won that, but the unfortunate result of that was that no one came on to help Phil out. He just had two people’s jobs, and from recent reports it seems he was neglecting the areas he felt were least important. Prioritizing. His catch 22 was that if he allowed Lerner to hire on someone else he risked two things:
1. That the new guy would be Collins part deux, and he’d then be viewed as the difficult one.
2. That it would be viewed as a demotion, and he’d lose face both inside and outside the organization. That would have weakened his ability to control difficult players (which we clearly have a couple of) and bring in FA talent (coaches and especially players).
I think that this was all developing over the course of 2006 and 2007. In 2006, he might have felt he could handle the added responsibility. With the success of 2007, he had no reason to take that risk. By 2008, it was too late, and risk #2 was no longer a risk but a guarantee.
The FO was clearly not working the way it needed to in order to be successful. Savage was in over his head in some areas. So Lerner had the impossible decision, either cut off Savage’s balls by fixing the FO and adding President/CEO type, or fire Phil. He may have even let Phil make the decision.
I’m with you. I don’t know what happened inside the org since I’m not there. My impression is that Savage is a jerk. He has his own ideas as to what his role should and shouldn’t be. I think Savage thought he was building a winner and anyone that diagreed with him was standing in the way. This loner attitude would obviously not go over well. So I blame Lerner for either not knowing this was the Savage he was hiring or not allowing Savage to be the man that he knew he was hiring.
Again, I’m not saying Savage is without blame, only that Lerner must share in that blame
Let’s say you are spot on about Savage.
How the heck does Lerner know that Savage reacts taht way to being a GM for the first time in his career? He obviously was under people in Baltimore. Maybe, you could argue, he should have seen this when there was the supposed power struggle with Collins and fired Savage then, but man, that is assuming a lot. And besides, the bottom line was that Savage was doing well gathering talent. Just doing poorly with other things.
If I’m spot on about Savage and I’m Lerner, I want to know what Savage thinks we need to do to continue to build. I trust in Savage, and I surround him with people who share his vision.
I concede that Savage and RAC shoulder blame. Do you think Lerner has done nothing wrong?
as i’ve said elsewhere, 24-40 provides enough blame to build a bridge to canada…so no one is blameless for the current state of affairs.
however, i’ll say that amongst the heads of the organization lerner is the least culpable. he had no choice but to boot butch, that was an untenable situation. subsequently, he hired the two hottest (although they were untested) names in talent evaluation/coaching…and they didn’t work out. i’m not sure how much blame you assign lerner for that.
i’m a guy who thought both romeo and savage needed to go, though. so i see very little blame for lerner…and in fact i credit him for cutting bait—the really tough decision—as opposed to hanging onto one or both for the sake of some faint, lame suggestion of “continuity”. continuing to do things poorly only ensures further poor performance. so, i assign little blame to randy.
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 30, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
There will always be a debate on when to cut and run versus holding the line. So I can accept that you believe it was time to cut and run, and I believe that this year did not surprise me and thus we should hold the line.
My frustration comes from the fact that last year these guys were getting extensions, everyone in football said the Browns were getting better and then we have a horrible year and everything changes. I just don’t understand what about the 2008 team makes it different than the 2007 team other than the record. The players are the same. I don’t blame Lerner for the 4-12 record, I blame him for his fly by the moment reactionary leadership and the constant reports of infighting within the FO which started before the arrival of Savage and RAC
Even during and after 2007, I thought RAC was a bad coach. He made very few adjustments, was indefensibly stubborn on how to play, and managed the clock very poorly. His teams often came out flat and his schemes were very unimaginative. I wanted to ditch Crennel before and after 2007.
Savage was a different story. It seems to me now that he was fired, and after hearing some of the reports, that he was fired for his means not his ends. It wasn’t the record the did Savage in, it was the state of the FO, the situation.
RAC was fired for both his means and ends.
well, i think telling a fan “f*ck you” is probably a pretty good data point in the “savage is a jerk” column.
i also think his tossing romeo under the bus in the fashion that he has done, after romeo’s support helped to save savage’s job in the collins fiasco, speaks to his questionable character.
i think the fact that lerner fired savage on saturday, before the final game, before firing romeo, says a lot. maybe you’ll say lerner’s a jerk (he’s not), but it speaks to their relationship and phil’s handling of the organization that the timing broke the way it did…and my opinion is that it indicates phil being a jerk.
i realize we disagree on all things savage, but i’ve also heard from “people who know stuff” (take it for what it’s worth from a random dude on the internet) that savage is not the greatest guy.
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 30, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
The fan email is nothing to me. I don’t see anything inappropriate about it at all (spend 10 seconds on cleveland.com message boards). In fact, I’m glad he felt that way.
He skin is clearly a bit thing, something that usually goes with cockiness… but both of these things also usually go with talented people. As with anyone, Savage was a joy with the media/organization when things were going well, and a “jerk” when things went downhill.
In the end, it’s obvious to me that Crennel was a bad head coach (for innumerable reasons). It’s not obvious to me that Savage was a bad GM, and it’s very possible that he is/could be a great one. I’d like to see some stability and Savage’s players directed under a real Coach.
I agree in spirit, but that email is completely ridiculous. There is just no call to answer any correspondence like that. The fact you compared it to cleveland.com tells you all you need to know. I do agree that he is, most likely, not a jerk and also could be a very good GM. I think he did fairly well here.
My argument is that there has been one constant over the last 10 years besides a losing team and that is the owner.
Maybe this is your problem. Randy Lerner has not owned the Browns for 10 years. He took over 6 years ago for his Dad. There is a significant difference there.
What is your evidence that he has no idea how to hire? He has made 1 real football-related hire in his life: Phil Savage. He was the hottest name out there, by far. He was, by all accounts, a great scout, talent evaluator and could put together a good team. Lerner didn’t direclty hire Crennel, although being the DC of the best team in the NFL and 30 year NFL lifer seemed like a positive choice for everyone around the league and the city. He also brought on Collins to replace Policy, but that really wasn’t a football role, except in Collins assistance in hiring Savage.
What the heck are you suggesting he do? If bringing in the best available people from some of the best organizations is wrong, what the heck is your criteria??
I just don’t get it. Lerner is never going to be a football guy. He didn’t play the game. He didn’t coach. He is a fan and an owner. He is an executive, a lawyer, a businessman, an investor. And by most accounts, he is good at all those things. Would it be great if he could find the Mark Shapiro- Football doppleganger? Yes. But that is going to require a little luck.
Good points, but I believe Lerner hired RAC and then Savage. I think he recognizes that was a mistake, and that’s why he’s intent on getting Pioli first, then letting him hire the coach.
I agree some luck is needed, but I also believe it is up to him to find an executive that he trusts, and with turnover at the top every 4 years, it is kind of hard to put processes in place to consistently build a winner. I believe this all starts at the top. It starts with hiring, but runs deeper than that. Lerner may get there, but he hasn’t yet. I hope that he does.
Right. Why do people keep bringing up Chris Palmer and Butch Davis? Randy Lerner didn’t hire these guys. He’s not the same person as his father.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
His hiring strategy is to poach talent from successful organizations without asking why or what makes those organizations successful.
Actually, Lerner sent people to observe the Patriots and Eagles organization four years ago. He told them to write down everything they saw, from the GM to the training staff.
Great people in bad organizations will not succeed while bad people in great organizations will.
That sounds great. But you have to ask, how did those organizations become great?
Great people make great organizations. Great organizations don’t randomly start.
Great people make great organizations. Great organizations don’t randomly start
Agreed. Lerner is responsible for not only acquiring great people but giving them an opportunity to build a great organization. The argument for giving Lerner a pass is that he always hires great people so it’s not his fault. it’s just that the great people weren’t as great as we thought.
Right, of course. Never mind that everyone that Lerner brought in had success (usually in the form of a title) elsewhere, never mind that interviewing and doing are completely different and never mind the fact that Lerner has done all he can to get the best people for the right job. It’s all his fault because he never asked Phil Savage what he thought of making sure you had at least five NFL quality quarterbacks on the roster. What a worthless interviewer.
ha. I like it.
Do you think Lerner is now asking Pioli: So hey, if Quinn’s finger falls off, Anderson’s knee implodes, Dorsey’s ribs melt, Gradkowski gets eaten by a giant dragon, and Cribb’s show gets picked up by Bravo and he quits football… what’s your plan at QB?? Do you think we should trade our whole draft to get Sam Bradford? Lure Jake Plummer out of retirement and then hire Jon Gruden as QB coach?
I don’t understand your argument. How was Lerner suppossed to know we’d be using a 4th string qb? He isn’t, but he should realize that the use of a 4th string qb may have something to do with the poor record and that he doesn’t need to blow everything.
The problem isn’t interviewing per se, the problem is that he is in charge and to say Lerner is not at fault but the people he hired are is just ridiculous. Lerner is the boss and I think fans give him a pass because Lerner does things fans enjoy like spending money and getting out of the way. As a fan I enjoy these characteristics too, but Lerner is the owner and he needs to hire and cultivate a successful cohesive unit which to this point he has failed to do. I don’t give him a pass for trying hard because Savage and RAC both tried hard to, but they are taking the blame.
but i’m still not sure how to criticize him, even under your scenario. he failed on this, his first, hiring attempt. ok, that sucks. and it was a failure that was pretty hard to predict, can we agree on that? i think we, and even football people, agree that he does the right things, as far as an owner is concerned, except for empowering the right people. he’s 0-for-1 (counting romeo/savage as 1 combined decision), but as i think you said, he’s setting up a system: hire good people (to the extent that’s predictable), and give them rope. he whiffed on a rookie (two rookies, actually), and so now he’ll hire the experienced gun. i think that’s laudable.
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 30, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see Savage as a failure. Acquiring 5 pro-bowlers in 4 years is not a failure imo, so I can’t agree to that. I think the failure was hiring Savage and RAC at the same time which many were concerned about early on.
Lerner’s plan to replace these guys is what concerns me. He reached out to Cohwer on Saturday. If Cohwer said he would take the job if he was gm and coach, do you think we’d be talking about Piloi today? We’d be back to the Butch Davis football czar. Unless he was talking to Cohwer about the GM role, he was going to hire a coach before hiring a gm. Cohwer said no, so now he is going after Piloi, a gm before a coach. It is this lack of having some clue, any clue, as to how he wants football operations run that is why I hold him most culpable. You don’t think it is a problem because the names Cohwer and Piloi are big names. I say there is more to runnning a team than hiring big names.
The problem isn’t interviewing per se, the problem is that he is in charge and to say Lerner is not at fault but the people he hired are is just ridiculous. Lerner is the boss and I think fans give him a pass because Lerner does things fans enjoy like spending money and getting out of the way. He hires big names, so as fans we get excited. As a fan I enjoy these characteristics too, but Lerner is the owner and he needs to hire and cultivate a successful cohesive unit which to this point he has failed to do. I don’t give him a pass for trying hard because Savage and RAC both tried hard to, but they are taking the blame.
Riiiiight….since I’m sure you were there when Lerner interviewed all those candidates, and you know what questions he asked them and what they discussed. Thanks for all your valuable insight.
By the way, I don’t trust the opinion of anyone who doesn’t know which form of “you’re” to use when writing. That’s elementary grammar.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t claim to know the correct choices, but I am wise enough to know that Lerner hasn’t done everthing right and it is just bad luck that all his hires fail. To say that he is not to blame because he spends money is simply idiotic.
Who said Lerner wasn’t to blame only because he spends money? I certainly didn’t.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Bernie19Kosar did
What else is Lerner to do? I am all for pointing the finger at a poor owner, but Lerner is not that. He has spent lavishly in FA that he has gotten little to nothing from some(Bentley and Baxter) and has continued to spend big without bitching.
Our debate started after I responded to his post. I agree that in some ways Lerner is a great owner. He isn’t afraid to spend, he doesn’t appear to meddle, and he wants a winning team. Those are great qualities in an owner. However, having those great qualities does not give him a pass for poor decisions.
You also left off the rest of my point. My full point was that Lerner is willing to spend money in order to help this team as well as other qualities. He has signed big money free agents every year. Baxter, Bentley, Stienbach, Stallworth, McGinnest, Shaffer, Jamal, and Robaire Smith are just a few I can think of off the top of my head. Not to mention handing Shaun Rogers and Corey Williams big money after their trades.
Is that the only part of a great owner? No. But it is a nice piece. Once again I ask you, who was the last expensive FA that Buffalo signed? Or KC? Bengals? You want Mike Brown as your owner? Jacksonville? Houston? Chargers or Bears?
Do you see where I am going with this? It is a HUGE part of an owners worth. The other half is not being an overbearing ass. Synder, Jones, Davis, etc. don’t fit this mold.
Who do you believe the best owner in the NFL is?
by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 30, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
Rooney
I said it many times before, Lerner has some wonderful qualities to which you point, but having these qualities does not allow him to pass the blame for his failures. I think we are just arguing about the extent of that blame.
CAN WE PLEASE HIRE A DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR WHO KNOWS HOW TO DESIGN A BLITZ!?!?!?
Anyone who can use the players we have on the roster at the time in a way that highlights their skills and hides their weaknesses is welcome in my book.
Chud might have had excuses with Braylon dropping balls, only having 1.5 NFL wide receivers on the roster (One of Stallworth’s legs still works), Tucker being out for the year, correctly predicting that Harrison would get injured with increased touches, and losing 1 2 3 quarterbacks to injury. Mel Tucker was simply continuing to do what didn’t work and expecting that it would magically fix itself.
Hopefully I can find some examples of what I am talking about and put something together when I get back after the holidays. How are we going to use that 4th overall draft pick?
I also think he’d be a great choice.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 29, 2008 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, that’s what I would like best at this point, but I don’t know a whole lot about McDaniels or many of the other candidates for that matter. If Lerner hires a GM, that guy should be making that decision over me.
The lack of blitzes when the alternative clearly does not work is sickening, though. That I do know.
Agreed. Color me very weary of McDaniels with the constant failure of Bilichek disciples elsewhere, but I’ll hold off judgment if Pioli or Parcells is making the call. Personally, Spagnolo is my preliminary top choice.
I still wish we could get a guy like this as a coordinator.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
by Chris Pokorny on Dec 30, 2008 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
While disappointed by the offense this year, I still think Chud has some promise. Not that he’ll stay on now though, under a new regime.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
by Chris Pokorny on Dec 30, 2008 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
He is who I’m most intrigued with also. The Giants defensive display in the Super Bowl was one for the ages. One issue though… don’t the Giants run a 4-3? We would need to do a complete overhaul of the defensive personel to run that.
I can’t watch another season of drop 8 rush 3 football. It might work in Madden 08 but it doesn’t in real life. IMO, you need to ubscribe to the Buddy Ryan train of thought, if 4 doesn’t get there, send 5 if five doesn’t get to the QB, you send 6, and so on.
We could probably transition to a 4-3 without much issue.
Right now the only players we have for the 3-4 front 7 that are worth a damn are Rogers, Jackson, C Williams, and then a bunch of question marks including L Williams, Hall, Wimbley, and Robaire. S Smith is all mouth, A Davis is filler, McGinest is probably retiring.
Rogers has played in a 43 his whole career minus last year, ditto for CW. Jackson is considered a better fit for a 43. I consider LW a better fit for a 43 OLB than 34 ILB. Robaire might be gone but I believe he has experience in a 43. Wimbley was a 43 DE that we converted, but he might need to be traded if we switch (up to the talent evaluators, not me). Hall is probably expendable if the new coach wants to run a 43. All in all, we’d need 1-2 starters on the Dline plus depth, and probably a ROLB and OLB depth. Well, that looks awfully similar to our needs in a 34. We need 1-2 starters at LB plus depth, and a starter at DE plus depth on the line.
It’s not something I’d like to see necessarily, but I’m not terrified by the prospect of a switch to the 43.
We could run it. Corey Williams would have to lose 10-15 lbs, but would actually be better in Spags’ scheme. Wimbley, Hall, Jackson, Williams, and Rogers could all probably play roles in the front 7, too. We would need another DE—preferably a big one—and it would probably be wise to draft a good LB or two, but I am warming up to the idea. Especially if that means we rush more than 3 or 4.
If it is Pioli, I would look for us to trade down. It is his MO from NE.
by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 29, 2008 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
According to the PD, Pioli is “very interested” in the Browns GM position. He started his career in Cleveland under Belichick and the report says he loves the city and the team. He has reportedly told associates that the Browns job is one of the few which would entice him to leave New England. He’s also good buddies with Indians’ GM Mark Shapiro. If Pioli could with the Browns what Shapiro has done with the Indians, I’d be thrilled.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
I’ve always wondered why Jim Johnson in Philly never got a shot. He might be a bit too old now for his first shot at a top job.
He might not have wanted one. Dick LeBeau got a shot and didn’t find success if I remember correctly. He liked being a DC and went back to being a DC.
Very true, Some “can’t miss” coordinators have really sucked when given a chance at the top job (eh em…. Romeo…).
That being said, I really am intrigued by Spagnolio. However, he could be a complete flop.
I’m also liking the talk of bringing in Pioli, however, a name I heard mentioned on 850 AM yesterday aslo made a lot of sense to me. what about Floyd Reece? The Titans seem to have drafted pretty well during his tenure and even more important IMO is the fact that they have had one coach, Jeff Fisher for over a decade.
Reece should at least get some consideration for the GM position IMO.
I’m not a fan of Reese. He drafted Pac-Man and Vince Young (Even though I think he may have been against VY but I’m not sure.)
by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 31, 2008 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
A Pioli/Mangini ticket sounds really good to me. Romeo could possibly be kept on as defensive coordinator. As crazy as that sounds, he seems to be considering that idea.
i’m not opposed to mangini. this should be an interesting search.
the romeo situation is intriguing…he makes, what $3-4mm per? which would likely make him the highest paid member of any new coach’s staff. w/ all the egos at play, it will be a compelling saga.
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 30, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure there would be much ego there, for all his deficiencies RAC has never seemed remotely egotistical.
i actually meant more with the new coach. is josh mcdaniels really worth $4mm, just so he can be paid more than his defensive coordinator who was just fired? that’s the stuff that i think will be interesting.
i agree on RAC’s lack of egotism.
by DontCallMeJoey on Dec 30, 2008 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
I am not opposed to having Romeo on as DC because he was a great DC for the Patriots. The problem I have with this defense is the lack of aggressiveness, which those NE teams clearly had. They moved defensive players all over the place and put in wrinkles every week to confuse opponents and get free rushers to the QB. If Romeo can do that, if ANYONE can do that, we should be considering them.
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