Pioli to interview as soon as Tuesday

by AaronD on Dec 29, 2008 9:26 PM EST Comment 52 comments

Mary Kay Cabott says he is very interested in the open GM position in Cleveland.

If Pioli is brought on I assume he will not want to work with Mangini with all the SpyGate stuff, but does anyone else think he got screwed>>??

I, personally would love to get Mangini as our next head coach since Cowher is a no go.

He has a .500 record over course of 3 seasons. I know the Jets fell apart at seasons end this year but Mangini was a solid coordinator n New England and I would say a servicable head coach for the Jets that i my eyes can only get better.

He is 37. Cleveland would be very lucky to land him.

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I think Mangini would be a fantastic hire.

by gahnki on Dec 29, 2008 9:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I’m not a fan of Mangini. He moved the Jets to a 3-4 just as Crennel did in Cleveland, and had arguably LESS success defensively. No one hear thinks Crennel fulfilled the promise of the illustrious Belichick School for Defensive Geniuses. We’ll call them the BS defensive guru grads.

Take a look at the defensive efficiency measures for Cleveland and NYJ from 2005 to 2008.
Year: Team Defensive DVOA NJY / CLE
2005: 0.6% / 5.4%
2006: 10.3% / 5.0%
2007: 10.9% / 7.6%
2008: 8.4% / 8.4%

Mangini’s defense has always sucked. Worse than Crennel’s.

Further, look at the defensive measures for New England.

2004: -11.2% Crennel’s last year
2005: 10.5% Mangini’s only year
2006: -8.4% Pees rookie year

The Pats’ D sucked in 2005, but bounced back fine in 2006 under a different rookie coordinator. Now, these measures don’t take into effect personnel, but they don’t speak well for Mangini as some sort of defensive guru.

by danvail on Dec 30, 2008 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Keep in mind, for those not familiar, that DVOA measures defensive efficiency, weighing heavily the most important stops, e.g. giving up 2 yards on 3rd and 3 is considered good, while giving up 2 yards on 3rd and 1 is considered bad.

Typically, DVOA ranges from -30% to 30, with 0 representing league average over a number of years. For offensive measures, a positive DVOA is good (because it represents offensive successful movement) and for defensive measures a positive DVOA is bad (for the same reason).

So, Mangini’s average of 9.87% is pretty bad – about 22nd out of 32 teams for 2008.

by danvail on Dec 30, 2008 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mangini is the guy who decided that Pennington wasn’t up to the task in NY. This is the guy whose judgement you want?
From where I stand, every coordinator that worked under Belichick has been overrated. It tells me that Belichick, himself, is the difference maker in NE.

by elsandito on Dec 29, 2008 11:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I still am not sold on Pennington. I know he is doing well statistically and in the win column this year, but I am not sold.

I think teams will try to force him to throw deep in the playoffs and he will look terrible.

Honestly, though; if you are given the choice between Favre and your current guy and your current guy isn’t going to be a first ballot HoF lock, who do you pick?

I agree that a lot of Belichick’s assistants look good because of him, but letting Pennington go is hardly the key piece of evidence in that case.

by rufio on Dec 29, 2008 11:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think teams will try to force him to throw deep

You think that no one has thought of this all regular season? 19TD’s, 7INT’s, a rating of 97.4 and a YPA of 7.7. He’s good. Stats reflect reality.

by fwembt on Dec 30, 2008 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

. If you watched that game against the Jets, you can clearly see his liabilities. On the flea flicker, he really struggled getting that ball deep.

I think the Dolphins staff really has done a tremendous job hiding his weaknesses with the Wildcat and other scheme things.

He’s definitely good, but the Dolphins aren’t going anywhere with that arm. Chad Henne will probably be their starter next season.

by gahnki on Dec 30, 2008 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Chad Henne will probably be their starter next season.

Why? Pennington was excellent this year and has a career rating over 90 (90.6, I think). Why go to Henne when Pennington played very well?

by fwembt on Dec 30, 2008 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Because Henne can do things that Penington can only dream of.

by gahnki on Dec 30, 2008 9:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Take a 1-15 team one year to the playoffs the next? Throw 19 TD’s and only 7 INT’s? Be second in the NFL in passer rating? Which of those things is it Henne does better than Pennington?

by fwembt on Dec 30, 2008 9:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, to start your argument is flawed. Those are results. They aren’t actions. You are acting like Pennington single handedly restored Miami.

He has a weak arm, but makes good decisions. That’s fine. He has done what Miami wants him to do at this point. But they aren’t going to win a Super Bowl with him. He is functional but not ideal. He’s very accurate in the short passing game, but that isn’t always going to be there. And those stats came against some of the worst defenses in the NFL.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=mia</a>

Dolphins- .465

That’s the Dolphin SoS. He faced some of the weakest NFL defenses in St. Louis, Buffalo, KC, Houston, and Seattle. The only really good defense he played was Baltimore and they lost that game.

His value is heavily inflated by the weak SoS.

by gahnki on Dec 30, 2008 9:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He still played very, very well. I don’t think Pennington single-handedly restored the team but the fact of the matter is he is an above average quarterback and has been for most of his career.

by fwembt on Dec 30, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kind of like Derek Anderson 2007

by Roger Dorn on Dec 30, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly. He’s still good, but he is benefiting greatly from favorable match ups.

by gahnki on Dec 31, 2008 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But he couldn’t beat Ohio State.

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Dec 30, 2008 9:41 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs

REC!!

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He’s good, but he isn’t going to be someone who can create plays with his arm. He could win in the playoffs just like Trent Dilfer won in the playoffs. Favre is still much, much better, especially if Mangini knew his job was in trouble and only had this year to save it.

Stats reflect what happened. They don’t reflect who made them happen or how many lucky bounces someone got or where talent is. Watch the fleaflicker from the last game again, he underthrows the guy by 5+ yards. Miami runs the ball well which helps him, and they even do tons of creative things to make their offense score. He isn’t carrying them. If they are still alive in the AFC championship you can say “I told you so” as much as you want, but I don’t think that team will even be competitive on wild card weekend, and I think Pennington will look bad.

by rufio on Dec 30, 2008 10:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Let’s not rewrite history. Mangini selected Kellen Clemens to start over Pennington, and not Favre. In Mangini’s estimation, Pennington wasn’t supposed to be as good as Kellen Clemens. It was later that the Jets acquired Favre. What year will Kellen Clemens be inducted to the Pro Football Hall of Fame?

by elsandito on Dec 30, 2008 10:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Pennington is still a fraud. He would have to play perfect to accumulate the stats and wins that he has this year. To his credit, he has played a phenomenal year. Clemens at least has some upside.

I am not defending Mangini—maybe he did make a mistake if he chose Clemens—I am saying Pennington just isn’t as good as he is playing right now.

by rufio on Dec 31, 2008 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

His career rating is 90.6. How do you explain that?

by fwembt on Dec 31, 2008 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think that team will even be competitive on wild card weekend, and I think Pennington will look bad.

53.7 passer rating while throwing 4 INT and 1 TD while struggling mightily in a loss…so I was at least correct about teams picking him apart in the playoffs.

As to whether he will ever lead his team to a Super Bowl, we will have to wait.

by rufio on Jan 8, 2009 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How soon we forget.

A certain coach was lambasted for letting go of Bernie Kosar not too long ago. That coach did pretty well for himself, did he not?

by gahnki on Dec 30, 2008 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn’t make the Bernie decision correct.

by DaytonDogg on Dec 30, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Bernie never started again in the NFL

So apparantly Belichick was spot on. Kosar only came into games in mop-up roles or when the starter got hurt after he left Cleveland.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Dec 30, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He did a heck of a job getting the Cowboys to the Super Bowl when Aikman went down. He never got another chance to be a starter, but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have done well with the opportunity.

by DaytonDogg on Dec 30, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I remember being so happy that he got to come in and take the final snap in the Super Bowl, even if it was for the damn Cowboys.

by DaytonDogg on Dec 30, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Say What???

Bernie Kosar started ONE game for Dallas that year (1993) AND LOST to the lowly Atlanta Falcons that game. He mopped up in three others. That was Game #10 of the season. Aikman played the rest of the way. How in God’s name does that translate to “heck of a job getting the Cowboys to the Super Bowl”…?? His quarterback record was 0-1. He had the great Cowboys behind him and couldn’t beat a very bad Atlanta team. Of course he never got another chance to be starter.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Dec 30, 2008 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In the 1993 NFC Championship the Cowboys QB Troy Aikman was hurt at the end of the first half.

Bernie entered the game and went 5-9 for 83 yards and 1 TD with 0 INT.

Cowboys won the game and went on to defeat the Buffalo Bills 30-13.

So yeah Dayton Dogg was correct. Bernie came in and saved the day for Cowgirls.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 30, 2008 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Aikman left the game with a 28-7 lead

In the third quarter. To translate that into “getting the Cowboys to the Super Bowl” is not even close to being a fair statement. Look, the point here is this. Belichick was villified in Cleveland for the famous “diminishing skills” comment. Kosar was 30 years old. After he left Cleveland he was completely irrelevant other than being a serviceable backup, affirming Belichick’s position, a position that was denounced as blasphemous in Cleveland.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Dec 30, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just wait to that happens to Big Ben, your legion of fans will also cry bloody murder when he gets shipped out of town, if he doesn’t end up too beat up that is.

by talonk on Dec 30, 2008 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It hurts to say this, but I can’t disagree with a single thing in this post.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 30, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It would have been akin to Cowher announcing Bettis had “diminishing skills” and then running him out of town before the Super Bowl season. Not necessarily wrong, just hugely unpopular.

by fwembt on Dec 30, 2008 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, and we did have a similar incident

When Franco thought he was more than what he really was in 1984 and wanted to be the feature back, Noll let him walk to Seattle, That wasn’t so bad, but then saying “Franco Who?” was hurtful. You don’t do that to a future Hall of Famer. Fortunately, Noll had already credentialed himself into the Hall so he was given alot of rope. When Belichick uttered his “diminished skills” comment, much less harsh than Noll’s, he had yet to really prove himself, so he had much less rope with the fans. I was disappointed in Noll, truth be told.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Dec 30, 2008 9:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not the same, at all. Bernie was not demanding anything or “more than what he really was.” He was simply playing, just like he had been (5TD’s, 3INT’s, 77.2 rating. Sacked 21 times in 6 games). He had put up with being rotated with Vinny Testaverde and being underutilized by a defensive head coach.

The reason that Belichick became so despised was not the content of his message but rather the manner of his delivery. He blindsided Bernie, who is revered in Cleveland, and did so in a completely classless way. Bernie hadn’t done a thing to bring it on himself. This wasn’t a simmering feud or a contract negotiation or anything. It was a bushwhacking.

Belichick took the city’s beloved son and whacked him in the head with a shovel. Only he didn’t do it behind the shed, he did it on the front lawn. Belichick took the quarterback of a 5-3 team and replaced him with Todd Philcox. [Bernie then played the next week for the Cowboys (on four days of practice) and went 13-21 for a 199 yards and a touchdown in a win over the Cardinals.]

To really understand this, you have to have been here then. You need to know what Bernie meant to this town and to his team. Eric Metcalf said it was “like leaving us to die” and the team lost seven of the last nine.

Bernie was more than just a quarterback, my poster of Kosar hung on my wall until the day I moved out for college, fans still wear #19 to home games, most people still, 15 years later, call Bernie their favorite player. He was a Cleveland kid come good, he was our quarterback and some coach came along and killed him right in front of us. That’s the Bernie story and, honestly, you just can’t understand.

by fwembt on Dec 30, 2008 10:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs

Couldn’t have said it better. My name shows where I stand on the issue.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 30, 2008 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I never said it was the same

I said it was similar, and there is a big difference. Of course there were variations. As good as Kosar may have been, he was still not the Hall of Fame player Franco Harris was. So I know all about the beloved hero of a city. Who can be more beloved than the author of the greatest single play in NFL history?

Fact is, both were no longer capable of doing what they had done in the past.. Kosar was never again anything but a serviceable backup and Clevelend fans, on the whole, never acknowledged that fact. They blamed Belichick instead, who was dead right. And by the way, I did live in Cleveland for 13 years during that whole era. I understand more than you think.

The Steelers in 1983 were like the Browns in 1993, in that the team had aged collectively and needed to be rebuilt. Belichick started doing just that and had the team in the playoffs in 1995, but Cleveland could still not get over the Kosar stigma. Belichick remains the last coach to win a playoff game in Cleveland.

And if you think claiming “diminished skills” is a bushwacking, referring to a Hall of Fame player as “Franco Who” makes your bushwacking look like grade school detention. Ironically, I am blaming my own franchise for that.

What Noll did to Harris was light years worse than what Belichick did to Kosar. The difference was that Noll had already garnered Hall of fame status and Belichick was still unforeseen as a Hall of Fame coach, so the difference was in the length of the rope fans gave to their coach.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Dec 31, 2008 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ll disagree that what Noll did to Harris was any worse. You are missing the point, it doesn’t matter that Bernie wasn’t a Hall of Famer, he was our guy. He was from here, he wanted to play here and he loved it here. It was never a matter of whether he could still play at his top level or not. (Interestingly, his last full season in Cleveland he posted the second highest rating of his career and was following that when he got hurt the next year).

Bernie got axed in the middle of a season, that’s the big thing here. That is why it is a complete bushwhacking. Letting an aging player go to free agency happens every single year. That’s what you are not understanding. Kosar was cut after the eighth game, that just does not happen. Saying that a free agent signing is worse isn’t even defensible.

And there is no way that was the greatest play in NFL history. But that’s another argument for another time.

by fwembt on Dec 31, 2008 1:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This whole Bernie tangent is another argument

And we can agree to disagree about which was more unceremonious, Bernie or Franco. But the original point is this, and this is indisputable, to say that Bernie Kosar “did a heck of a job getting the Cowboys to the Super Bowl” is totally disingenuous. He was never anything more than what Bill Belichick claimed, and that can never be proven to the contrary.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Dec 31, 2008 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And the opposite is also true. You can’t prove that he wouldn’t have been a successful starter after he left Cleveland. He didn’t get another chance. He played well in the backup roll for Dallas, that same season. He helped get the Cowboys to the Super Bowl, even if I overstated his importance in that run.

Belichick kicked our QB out of town. The face of the franchise. A local kid. With some really good, if not great seasons. I don’t expect you to understand the emotion tied to it. Harris is a very silly comparison. The guy had a longer career than Bernie, your coach was a known and well respected quanity and its a freaking running back. I’m not sure who he was replaced with, but it wasn’t Todd Philcox.

Bernie still is the most iconic Cleveland Brown of anyone from 23-30years old, and probably of any Brown since the 60’s.

Harris was one of a bunch of good/great players in from Pittsburgh. Maybe this is more of an indictment on the Browns franchise since, but we’ve gone through some tough times, and we haven’t had a consistent QB since Bernie. Its different.

by DaytonDogg on Dec 31, 2008 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

I’lll have to agree with fwembt on this one.

Yes Franco was a HOFer, but he was not the most beloved plyaer of those Steeler squads or era, that would be more likely Bradshaw, Ham, Greene, Blount …. heck most of the D. I’d even hazard to guess Blier was more beloved in Pitt (working class guy). That is the distinction you are missing.

by talonk on Dec 31, 2008 3:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

As far as your greatest play comment, I’ll take Montana to Clark an day, especially since that was a legal play.

by fivekmd on Jan 2, 2009 8:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I expect the Immaculate Reception

to be cast aside by most Browns fans when compared to anything else. The very thought of dignifying anything Pittsburgh goes against your grain. But can you honestly answer this? If the Browns were losers for all 38 years of their existence, and then scored on a fourth down play from 60 yards away, do you think you would put a six-yard third-down pass in front of that? Not a chance. And as far as the legal part, that again is typical. There has never been evidence either way, except a physicist who projected the backward speed of the ball to be hit by someone running toward it (Tatum) rather than away from it (Fuqua), but again you choose the low road and call it illegal since that is what you want to believe.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 2, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It hit Fuqua last. But either way, it was a flukey play. That alone makes it not the greatest in NFL History.

by kwoog on Jan 3, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

rec. I have a picture of Bernie framed, that hangs in my room.

by DaytonDogg on Dec 31, 2008 1:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That isn’t even close to the point. It is irrelevant whether it was the right decision or not.

It just shows that focusing on one controversial decision is not how you decide who you want to hire.

by gahnki on Dec 30, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I know.

I’m admittedly still bitter.

by DaytonDogg on Dec 30, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, me too.

by gahnki on Dec 30, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

League source claims Mangini will be interviewed as soon as today or tomorrow.

Am I mistaken or did Lerner state that a GM would be hired first? Maybe I’m wrong and the talking heads’ opinions have seeped into my subconscious as truth.

So either the league source is speculating, or Pioli may be close to a deal and the Spygate stuff is behind them.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 30, 2008 2:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I REALLY hope that Lerner doesn’t repeat the “hire the GM and insist on the coach” mistake.

by danvail on Dec 30, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+ 1

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Dec 30, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lerner could want to ask Mangini how he would work with Pioli and how/if the spygate thing would affect the relationship. He could still pull the trigger on a GM first, while feeling coaches out in the meantime.

by rufio on Dec 30, 2008 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I was having a similar thought…Is it normal for the owner of the team to interviewing coaches and GM’s at the same time? If it were me, I’d get tired and confused pretty quickly. That’s probably why I’m no GM.

Plus, I can’t tell if Mr. Lerner is rushing to take the focus off himself, or being “aggressive” by starting his searches so quickly.

by RD74 on Dec 30, 2008 3:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs