An Interesting Argument from Will Leitch

by BringBackKosar on Jun 15, 2008 12:11 PM EDT Comment 20 comments

I'm assuming most of you are familiar with the sports blog Deadspin and its founding editor, Will Leitch. I was perusing his book, God Save the Fan, which is actually pretty solid and worth the read, when I saw a reference to our beloved Browns in the section of the book about Fans.

He's discussing the oft-debated subject of what makes a "true" fan, and he makes the following interesting argument about loyalty to a franchise:

".......Because a real fan never leaves his team...even if they leave him. A friend of mine recently told me how difficult his life is as a Cleveland Browns fan. He had the usual complaints: They don't care enough about their fans, they don't have a concrete plan in place[NOTE: this book was written previous to last year's resurgence] , and (of course most important) they'd never made it to a Super Bowl. My friend went on about this.......at least I think it was my friend; he was wearing one of those Dawg Pound masks at the time, I suppose it could've been anybody.

But I had no sympathy. If he were a real fan, he would have celebrated his first Super Bowl win 7 years ago....with the Baltimore Ravens."

Moving a bit forward in his rant, he continues:

If something as silly as geography guides your rooting interests, isn't it wishy-washy to move your loyalty around just because someone realized the franchise could make more money in Topeka than Boise?

........And as for "abandoning" a city..please. NFL Teams and their fans live in the same city about 27 days a year. A team and its fans have as much in common as your hand and a vending machine.

......I looked at my Browns fan friend and just shook my head. I didn't want to hear it; if he were a real fan he'd have his Super Bowl. Eight years ago against the Giants. You can look it up."

I find this position, that a true fan follows a franchise regardless of city, to be...interesting. Of course, I sharply disagree; I think geography has and should have a lot of influence on who we root for., especially with teams like the Browns , Packers and BIlls-places where that team is an integral part of the community.

This reminds me of a question(or taunt) I hear a lot out here in SoCal...I'm a proud Brown's fan, have been since I was 10, but I'm not from Ohio. I've never lived there. I chose Cleveland to root for when I was a kid because I hated the LA teams and my mom's side of the family were all Ohio natives. Because of cost, I may never be able to attend a Brown's game in person. So, am I less of a "pure" fan because my geographic ties to the team are tangential?

Anyway, I was just interested to hear any thoughts on Mr. Leitch's argument.

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Difference of opinions

I also think the team you root for has everything to do with geography. I want to attend the games in person, read the local newspaper covering my team, and listen to talk radio discussing my team. My loyalty will always lie with the city, especially in today’s era of free agency, expansion and moving teams. The city, helmets, and colors are the only thing to cheer. I want all eyes on my city because our team is winning. Baltimore’s Super Bowl was a kick in the gut because that owner turned his back on the city and took away the opportunity for our city to win the Super Bowl.

by bellar on Jun 15, 2008 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

What an idiot. Does he actually know anything about sports? There isn’t a team in the world who’s fane base is not created completely because of the geographic location of that sports teams. While some teams spread beyond those bounds, and fans can be found everywhere, there is still a tie.

Being a fan of a team creates an identity, a fellowship and a community.  When I say I am a Browns fan, it means I am part of a community of Browns fans.  Why do I hate the Steelers?  Why do I hate the Cavaliers (UVA not Cleveland)?  Its not because of some actual or perceived slight, or so long forgotten conflict.  Its because the community of sports that I identify with is at odds with those communities.  We are fans of the Cleveland Browns, not the association of players and names who just happened to play in Cleveland at the time.

Its not about cheering for a location, or a color, or a name or a face.  Its about an identity.  Its a group.  This is why when you go to a sports event you get caught up in the roar, the rush.  Its an instinct. you become atuned with your fellows, in essence a family of identity.  A sports fan is no different from a nationalist.  And this author would be hard pressed to just disregard identity in those terms.  I am an American.  If the Congress moved overseas and the flag was changed and the name of the country was Uzbekistan, I would not become an Uzbekistani.  I would not cheer for the Uzbekistani military and economy.

If Mr. Leitch actually understood the subject of his book, fandom and fans, then he would not dare right such an insulting line as "If he were a real fan".  Its disrespectful to those of us who root for the Browns to imply that we are not real fans because we didn't root for the ravens.  His inferences about what a fan is, proves that he is in fact not one.  Being a fan is not just some sort of casual acceptance of a team, but an embrace, and with that embrace comes an identity, a history and a certain level of acknowledgement about what a team is.  And a team is not just some rich guys playing a game, its an idea.

Oh, and as an extra kick.  There was a team in Cleveland when the Ravens won their Super Bowl.  So... no, he shouldn't have rooted for the Ravens to win in the Super Bowl.

by Estonianzulu on Jun 15, 2008 1:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

So yeah., I have no idea what happened to my comment :(

by Estonianzulu on Jun 15, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have to disagree with the geography thing.

I grew up in Hawaii, where there is no pro team. Free to choose from any of the NFL teams, people choose based on any number of things. The closest team geographically is the Chargers, and a lot of people root for them and did so even when the Chargers were terrible. A lot of people like the 49ers because they were about as close and really really good in the 80s/90s (my Dad lived in SanFran so my family rooted for them. Winning didn’t hurt things.) A lot of people I still know back there respected the Patriots last year and how they went about their business, and this sort of fairweather fanhood does exist in abundance. BUT, I knew Bengals fans in Hawaii, I knew Oilers fans, I knew New Orleans fans, and none of those teams had any shot at anything. Even though they were sometimes just choosing a team based on pretty much nothing (and certainly not geography), they were just as die-hard and intense as any fans here on the mainland with a team in their city.

Geography doesn’t necessarily matter. Loyalty does, and Modell was not loyal in his moving the team.

by rufio on Jun 15, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have to disagree with the geography thing.

Yeah, sorry I think my first line came across a bit different then what I meant (I was kind of seeing red). I meant that you associate with a team from a certain geography. You won’t say, root for the “Browns” who just happen to be in Cleveland. You root for the “Cleveland Browns”. You can’t have one without the other, they are a single entity. And like I said, it does extend beyond that, but because the identity exists. There are Cleveland Browns fans, even far from Cleveland (myself included in that group). But I consider myself a fan of the “Cleveland Browns”. I would not be a fan of the “Baltimore Browns”. Although I am amused that anyone could respect how the Patriots went about their business last year and not be a diehard Pats fan. They were just evil :D

by Estonianzulu on Jun 15, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's a bug that's been happening...

Here is your post (hopefully) in it’s entirety:

Written by Estonianzulu: What an idiot. Does he actually know anything about sports? There isn’t a team in the world whose fan base is not created completely because of the geographic location of that sports teams. While some teams spread beyond those bounds, and fans can be found everywhere, there is still a tie.
Being a fan of a team creates an identity, a fellowship and a community. When I say I am a Browns fan, it means I am part of a community of Browns fans. Why do I hate the Steelers? Why do I hate the Cavaliers (UVA not Cleveland)? Its not because of some actual or perceived slight, or so long forgotten conflict. Its because the community of sports that I identify with is at odds with those communities. We are fans of the Cleveland Browns, not the association of players and names who just happened to play in Cleveland at the time.

Its not about cheering for a location, or a color, or a name or a face. Its about an identity. Its a group. This is why when you go to a sports event you get caught up in the roar, the rush. Its an instinct. you become atuned with your fellows, in essence a family of identity. A sports fan is no different from a nationalist. And this author would be hard pressed to just disregard identity in those terms. I am an American. If the Congress moved overseas and the flag was changed and the name of the country was Uzbekistan, I would not become an Uzbekistani. I would not cheer for the Uzbekistani military and economy.

If Mr. Leitch actually understood the subject of his book, fandom and fans, then he would not dare right such an insulting line as “If he were a real fan”. Its disrespectful to those of us who root for the Browns to imply that we are not real fans because we didn’t root for the ravens. His inferences about what a fan is, proves that he is in fact not one. Being a fan is not just some sort of casual acceptance of a team, but an embrace, and with that embrace comes an identity, a history and a certain level of acknowledgment about what a team is. And a team is not just some rich guys playing a game, its an idea.

Oh, and as an extra kick. There was a team in Cleveland when the Ravens won their Super Bowl. So… no, he shouldn’t have rooted for the Ravens to win in the Super Bowl.

Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.

by Chris Pokorny on Jun 15, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No way.

When that team left Cleveland, it ceased to be the Browns. Even if you are choosing a team to root for between, say, where you live now versus where you used to live or where your family is from, you don’t choose based on who owns the team. I couldn’t care less who owns the Browns as long as they sign checks, hire the people needed to win football games, make winning their #1 goal, keep the team in Cleveland, and otherwise don’t screw up.

Modell made money his #1 goal, and I can’t respect that. He took football away from Cleveland, and I can’t cheer for that. He took every bit of history and tradition and connection to Clevelanders that his franchise had and he destroyed all of it. That team didn’t leave us, that team ceased to exist. Its the same reason I can’t cheer for the Carlos Boozers of the world, he told us “you know what, I care more about you as a market and you as someone I can make money off of than about my football team, playing the game, and winning.” Maybe Baltimore is a bigger market, but we have the most rabid fans in football, and a winning franchise can exist here. There are two reasons for sports: money and love. Which one do you choose?

by rufio on Jun 15, 2008 1:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Another quote from the book

So the only way to be honest with oneself is to pick a team and stick with them…...true fans stay around no matter what; people from Houston should root for the Titans, people from Charlotte should root for the Hornets, and people from Minnesota should root for he Dallas Stars. Otherwise, you’re the one who’s disloyal. You’re just following whomever it’s convenient to follow.

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

by BringBackKosar on Jun 15, 2008 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Right, because it was “convenient” for us to follow a 3-13 Cleveland team over a Super Bowl winning Raven team…

by Estonianzulu on Jun 15, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He did get one of those right. People in Houston do root for the Titans, err…well…they root for Vince and he’s on the Titans!

by dvd1204 on Jul 11, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Normally I like Will...

But I wonder if he would say the same thing if the St. Louis Cardinals moved to Vegas? Man, this bugs me. I am stuck out here in Hawaii (I am from Cleveland)....and geographic location means EVERYTHING. Do you know how nice it is to see the Cleveland skyline during a Sunday football game? What a ridiculous argument. And…oh come on…the “team” didn’t move to Baltimore, that was the whole point…oh…I am writing a letter to an editor or something. Grrr.

by OscarDog on Jun 15, 2008 6:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

To be fair

He did follow the St. Louis football Cardinals to Arizona.

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

by BringBackKosar on Jun 15, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ummm, no.

by Roger Dorn on Jun 15, 2008 8:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This might be the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen written about sports.

by kwoog on Jun 15, 2008 11:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This is absolutely atrocious. Deadspin is the National Enquirer of Sports media, and I wouldn’t expect anything better from their founder. So today, in the middle of the NBA Finals, after the most memorable US Open in recent memory, with a good baseball season in our midst, with minicamps going on in football, what do you think Deadspin’s top entry is? Some crap about Michael Wilbon and Strippers. And not even that he is with a stripper currently, just that he said that he doesn’t understand why people are interested in him being photographed with a stripper in the past. This guy is telling us about fandom? What a joke. Maybe I’ll pay attention to him if I want to know who Brad Pitt is screwing, but now about what how sports fans should act.

Our Team Our Name Our Colors Our History. The City and the fans fought for these things. Model tried to take away our team, and we fought him. He lost. The BROWNS still play in Cleveland. Jim Brown’s number is retired for the BROWNS, not the Ravens. If Brady Quinn goes on to throw 160 TD’s in his Browns career, he would be breaking Brian Sipe’s record. If Kyle Boller goes on to throw 150 INT’s in his career… he will NOT have passed Sipe’s Browns record, he will set the Ravens mark.

There is one Browns franchise in Pro Football, it has only called one city home- Cleveland.

I can’t speak to the Titans or the Rams or the Colts. I don’t know how those situations went down, I don’t know how those cities dealt with it. But I do know that the team I cheer for now, is the same team that I watched when I was a kid. It was the same team my Dad cheered for and it will be the same team I take my kid in the future to see on the Lake front.

Screw you Will Leitch. Go find a picture of Matt Leinert eating dinner or something. And never again claim to be a real fan, of anything. You suck.

by Ryan Kelsey on Jun 16, 2008 6:22 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs

$ comment.

by rufio on Jun 17, 2008 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perfect!

BRAVO!!!! DaytoDog well said.

by SirBoydicus on Jun 19, 2008 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So is Will Leitch up for dumbass post of the week?

by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 16, 2008 7:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I’m glad I didn’t have to cheer Modell and Ray Lewis standing on the podium together that night. That nearly made me hurl.

by JulioBernazard on Jun 26, 2008 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice Daytondog, I agree Modell f’d the City of Cleveland and all Browns fans nationwide and then trying to steal the Identity of the city to boot. We all can not wait for his demise, when he passes there will be parties around Cleveland lol.

by jrock138 on Jul 14, 2008 8:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs