Disagreements: Joe Thomas Not in Prisco's Top 50

by ChrisPokorny on Jun 26, 2008 9:02 PM EDT in General News Comment 22 comments

CBS Sportsline writer Pete Prisco ranked the top 50 players in the NFL heading into this season today. When rankings are done by position, then it's fairly easy to be justifiable in your reasoning. However, when you lump all of the positions together, you're going to get ripped to shreds. No matter how you go about it, it's too tough to decide whether a stud running back is a little more important than that game-changing cornerback.

Only two Browns players cracked Prisco's top 50:

34. Braylon Edwards, WR, Cleveland Browns: Edwards was second to Moss with 16 receiving touchdowns in his third season in the league. He averaged 16.1 per catch and will only get better as he hits his prime.

The following receivers were ranked ahead of Edwards: Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Steve Smith, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Chad Johnson, and Larry Fitzgerald. All of those players are extremely talented. However, ranking six players ahead of Edwards (excluding Moss) sounds a bit funny -- especially after Prisco's comment specifically stated that Edwards was second in the league in receiving touchdowns to go along with an impressive 16.1 yards per catch average.

44. Kellen Winslow, TE, Cleveland Browns: He has emerged as one of the rising stars for a rising team. His ability to stretch the defense is vital to the Cleveland offense.

Antonio Gates was the only tight end ranked ahead of Winslow. That sounds reasonable, as veterans like Tony Gonzalez and Todd Heap are getting up there in age (although of Winslow's health issues persist, he'll quickly "age" too).

I understand Derek Anderson being left off the list; he still has a lot to prove this season before officially joining "the big boys". The rating for Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer at No. 8 is a tad high though. While I do agree that Palmer initially had the potential to be the league's third best quarterback, he hasn't been at the top of his game the past two seasons.

One name stuck out as being ranked WAY too high: Texans defensive end Mario Williams. Priso ranks him at No. 6! By that rating, he's already the most dominating defensive lineman in the entire NFL. I don't believe Prisco's rankings are projections either -- I'm taking them as where they stand now. If Williams' performance last season earned him the six spot, then where in the world is Joe Thomas on the list?

Bills offensive tackle Jason Peters was ranked No. 27. If you recall, Peters was named to the Pro Bowl for the AFC last season, but was replaced by Thomas due to "injury issues". Even if Thomas didn't crack the top 50, he should have at least cracked Prisco's "Just Missed" list.

One valid point that could be made is that Anderson and Thomas didn't make the list because they need to prove themselves capable for two years, rather than one.

The counter point?

No. 15 Adrian Peterson
No. 43 Patrick Willis

Two rookies made the list: and Thomas excelled at the most sought-after position in football.

Poll

Should Joe Thomas have been in Prisco's Top 50?

Yes

238 votes

No

23 votes

261 votes | Poll has closed

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Comments

Where to start...

You are exactly right that it is impossible to lump all of the players together without screwing up ROYALY. Tom Brady is a clear #1 but Williams #6 and Palmer #8, no way. Why is Hester even on this list? I thought Braylon was low, even though he needs to prove it this year. Winslow too high and Thomas should be on the list. We should rank our top 5 Browns in order.
1. Braylon
2. Joe Thomas
3. DA
4. Jamal Lewis
5. Wimbley
Just missed – Winslow, Eric Wright, Cribbs.
What does everyone else think?

by bellar on Jun 26, 2008 10:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wright still has a lot to show us before he’s even in the just missed category IMO. I think Eric Steinbach is probably more suited for No. 4 or No. 5 on the list too.

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by ChrisPokorny on Jun 26, 2008 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Terrible

Winslow below DA? Please.

by rufio on Jun 27, 2008 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not saying I agree with it, but I’m curious on your view of this perspective: Which offense would be better? (maintain our current offensive line for each)

Option 1: Frye, Edwards, Winslow, Lewis.
Option 2: Anderson, Edwards, Rucker, Lewis.

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by ChrisPokorny on Jun 27, 2008 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am going option 2, BUT largely because of circumstance. For starters, if you are going with our current roster, then you have to take Frye out in place of Quinn. If you are going beginning of last year, you have to take Rucker off and keep Frye.

However, your situation is different than “best Browns” or “top players” at any given point during the Browns’ history, and is more like “most valuable” player. Generally speaking, the QB is one of if not the most important guy on a team in terms of W-L record. If you take Peyton off of the Colts, they plummet. If you take Palmer off of the Bengals, they probably can’t beat Kent State. If you take Matt Hasselbeck out of Seattle, they might not make the playoffs. But, that doesn’t mean they are necessarily the best players on their teams. If you were to rank players with an “overall” like in Madden, they might not have the highest rating on their teams, but they play a premium position. The NFL simply lacks enough good QBs, so their value doesn’t necessarily reflect their talent.

There are guys who are immensely talented who happen to play positions where talent is available year in and year out. Thats why we made the right call by taking Joe Thomas at #3 over Peterson. Guys like Thomas come around once every 5 years, and guys like Peterson are available every year or two.

Arguing for Winslow over DA was vague at best, and as I ripped on the writer, I did pretty much what he did there. My apologies. I should have said “Winslow has played more consistently and at a higher level than DA and his body of work leads me to conclude that he is the better player of the two”.

...at least thats my opinion.

by rufio on Jun 27, 2008 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I knew you’d respond with a good read…thanks :D

Continues to pull the strings above the curtain ;)

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by ChrisPokorny on Jun 27, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kellen should be number 5 on your list. I think Wimbly is more of a just missed than Winslow. Although I love Wright and think he is going to be more than solid for us, I agree with Chris he shouldn’t be in the just missed category yet. Cribbs is spot on though, one more year like last year and he is in the top 5, without him we probably would have been 6-10 not 10-6.

by vegasbrown on Jun 26, 2008 11:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This whole article is dumb.

He says he is listing the “top players”. What does that even mean? Top…stat-getters? Best at what they do? Most skilled overall? Most important to their team? Ranked in a draft-like order? The criteria are vague to begin with, at best.

Assuming the criteria are “level of play by an individual player as determined by the past few seasons with last season being weighted most heavily”...

Notable screwups:
Tom Brady being the top overall player. If you can’t put up somewhere near his stats with his offense, the defense getting him back the ball, AND knowledge of exactly what the opposing D is going to do, you are terrible. Would Peyton have gotten the “chokes in big games” rep if he went 18-0 or whatever and then didn’t win the superbowl? Somehow Tom avoids this and is still the top overall player in the league.

Champ Bailey at 5. Maybe 5-8 years ago. I remember Favre throwing over his head a couple of times last year…

Mario Williams and Carson Palmer. Mario is being compensated for being ripped by the media in the past. He is the player who everyone tagged “underrated” so much that he became overrated.

Albert Haynesworth. Took soooooo many plays off when it wasn’t a contract year.

Adrian Peterson. He won’t play all 16 games this year, and he probably won’t any year. He is a great runner when he is out there, but I think a guy who consistently preforms at a level slightly below Peterson’s ranks higher than Peterson.

DeMarcus Ware. One dimensional. Ranked too high.

Walter Jones. As per usual, no love for offensive lines. Jones is simply great. With Pace out last year, and Ogden retiring, he is probably tops in the NFL. Move him up.

Charles Woodson. Seriously? At 18? Seriously.

Jason Peters. Jason Peters < Joe Thomas.

Steven Jackson. He does less with more than Frank Gore.

Vince Wolfork, Patrick Willis, and Osi Umenyiora are all WAAAYYY too low.

Adrian Wilson, Antonio Cromartie, and Troy Polamalu all probably deserve to be on the list. Zero San Diego D linemen? Steve Huchinson? John Henderson/Marcus Stroud? Jammal Brown? Frank Gore has run behind one of if not the worst lines in the league for the past two years and he had 1695 and 1102 yards. I would take Josh Cribbs over Hester, AND its at least close enough to put Cribbs on your “just missed” list. Hester may be flashy, but teams will figure him out, and he is inconsistent. Cribbs starts your offense out past the 30 every single time. Some players are knocked down the list because they are oft injured or inconsistent, others are praised because of their talent and their inconsistency is ignored. These rankings get two big thumbs down.

by rufio on Jun 27, 2008 12:38 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Another good read there rufio. I’ll add a little comment to your point about Hester—teams probably won’t figure him out if they haven’t been able to for two years already. However, this is why I like Cribbs better than Hester…

-How many times do we see Hester try to make a ridiculous play, even when it’s not there? For all the wowing plays he makes, there are a few where he goes backwards or fumbles when he shouldn’t.

-Cribbs makes just as many wowing plays as Hester, but he’s always moving forward. He hits the gap beautifully…and going backwards would be silly of him, because he’s not really a stop-and-go type of runner.

Hester’s great, Cribbs is great, but if Hester’s on the list, Cribbs should’ve been too.

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by ChrisPokorny on Jun 27, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apparently, I was angry yesterday.

I guess instead of “figure him out” I should have said “make him fumble”. He makes negative game-changing plays almost as much as he makes positive game-changing plays.

Although when he scored a TD because he caught the ball and started walking toward his sideline (as if he were going to the bench), and the other team walked toward the opposite sideline (they were going to the bench) just as Hester broke out in a sprint…that could be “figured out”. Play to the whistle!!! You are correct in implying there is nothing to “figure out” about pure speed and explosive playmaking ability, though.

I would also take Cribbs over Hester, no doubt.

by rufio on Jun 27, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oops...

Steinbach was an oversight. Think of it this way if the current NFL rosters were re-drafted I think DA goes ahead of K2. It is difficult for us to find common ground with our own team. This joker tried to do the entire NFL, no chance. So is Wimbley the only defensive player we can consider (you guys shot down Wright and Rodges hasn’t played a down yet, Sean Jones would probably be next)? Off topic, why can’t anybody but Phil Dawson kickoff for us?

by bellar on Jun 27, 2008 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Normally I’d lump in my Phil Dawson thoughts here, but since we’re in the dead period of the offseason, how about you create a fan post about it to inflate the activity level? ;)

The only way to truly rank the NFL players to everyone’s liking is to probably do a HUGE survey amongst fans, in sort of a round robin bracket of eliminations. After repeating over and over and comparing, you could probably get a better list. Then again, I think the bias would be too strong for a lot of fans—I see all the Patriots fans voting for Brady, Moss, Maroney, Welker, etc. as the top five players in the league.

I think Wimbley is the only defensive player we can put in the top five right now. Although he didn’t rack up the stats last season, he did rack them up in his rookie season. We know what he’s capable of with the talent around him. Our new defensive players - like Rogers and Williams - need a year to judge them in our system for my liking. Sean Jones would probably be my No. 2 defensive player.

Our offense trounced our defense last season, so they’re getting the respect that they earned. If the defense shows up this year, the list will be more balanced next season.

Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.

by ChrisPokorny on Jun 27, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Jones is the clearcut #1 defensive player. He’s become an absolute beast, right up there w/ the two other superstar safeties in our division.

by kwoog on Jun 27, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Jones was the top defensive player on the team, it certainly isn’t clear cut.

He is definitely not on the level of Polamalu and Reed yet. I believe he will get there, but he isn’t there yet. Their games are different. Jones is bigger and stronger, the other two are more agile and faster.

My issue with Jones’ play last season was his inconsistency. A few of the games early in the season that I watched he had a lot of trouble in pass coverage. Later on, he apparently got better, but I was stuck listening to games on the radio instead of actually watching them on TV later in the season.

In a scheme where the linemen are supposed to draw double teams, none of them did so last year, and Wimbley was still putting pressure on the QB. He didn’t post the sack numbers, but if you did some Football Outsiders-type analysis on how he impacted the game, I’d be he would look really good.

by rufio on Jun 27, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I believe a Jones and Polamalu are quite comparable, when considering their games. Reed would be the one with a different game, in my opinion. Both Jones and Polamalu are physical, active in the run defense and big time tacklers in general. And the last two years Jones was better than Polamalu (injuries playing a factor). However, even if you compare them to Polamalu’s two best seasons (04 and 05), Jones has nothing to apologize for.

I’m weary to put blame on coverage issues based on what I see on tv. Often the guy closest to a wide open receiver seems like he blew it, when in reality and based on the scheme it might have been someone else (coughPoolecoughWright). I know about the early issues Jones had covering tight ends, but I think he improved on that little blip by midseason (and it was primarily caused by him biting on PA b/c we had no front 7). Overall, in this case I tend to go by what teammates and coaches say, and I think they’d all call him the MVP and leader of the defense.

by kwoog on Jun 27, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

3 rookies...Peterson, Willis, and...

correct me if I’m wrong, but Mario Williams was playing in his second year. Perhaps I just misunderstood?

By the way, great post Chris.

by socratesofnew on Jun 27, 2008 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow, sorry about that…a big-time oversight on my part. Lemme edit it to correct myself…thanks!

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by ChrisPokorny on Jun 27, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mario Williams still only had one good year, though. I mean, it was a hell of a year, but it was only one year.

Patrick Willis is not going anywhere though. He is ridiculous.

I think your point remains intact. If one good year can get you on the list, Joe Thomas needs to be on it.

by rufio on Jun 27, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Football, of all the major sports, is the hardest to rank players in one lumped group. Each position has different demands, skill sets and roles to the point that it’s illogical to compare a WR to a OT and say “which is a better player?”

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

by BringBackKosar on Jun 28, 2008 1:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It’s not really illogical. Of course Joe Thomas is a better player than Travis Wilson. But you can’t say with certainty that he’s better than Braylon Edwards. So, it becomes a question of line-drawing… where in between those two extremes is the answer. It may not be perfect or statistical driven (like in baseball, where you can compare a DH’s value to a Catcher’s pretty accurately), but it can be done. I’d argue it’s done a lot in player acquisition, most notably the “best available” strategy in a draft.

by kwoog on Jun 28, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the line-drawing comes when you’re comparing each team’s starters, while on the same note EXCLUDING certain starters that are inserted into the role by default (i.e. Brandon McDonald).

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by ChrisPokorny on Jun 28, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trades

I also agree that it is NOT illogical. It can be difficult but it is done all the time when teams trade players. What I never understood is why the value of a draft pick seems so high. When you trade for a proven player it seems to be safer then drafting a player who hasn’t set foot on the field. This is why I love the Browns draft this year, we know what were getting we just are positive how they will fit in. Too many Mike Junkin, Courtney Brown, and Gerard Warren type busts.

by bellar on Jun 28, 2008 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs