Pioli or Mangini?

I agree with you and prefer Pioli, but am fearing the rumors that he wants to hire Kirk Ferentz.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 2, 2009 3:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

If Pioli insists on Ferentz, it may cost him the job. No doubt that Ferentz is a good coach, but how do you pass on all of the other available coaches for him?

by gahnki on Jan 2, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I just don’t understand what makes Ferentz a good candidate. College coaches scare the living daylights out of me

Pete Carroll, Steve Spurrier, Nick Saban, Butch Davis, Bobby Petrino…the list goes on and on. All terrific college coaches, all were miserable in the pros

by Roger Dorn on Jan 2, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

by danvail on Jan 2, 2009 7:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not much of a football historian, so I gotta ask – if for o other reason than to play devil’s advocate: Are there any college coaches who have gone on to greatness in the NFL?

by JustBob on Jan 2, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jimmy Johnson is an obvious example. Tom Coughlin was once head coach at Boston College, but he was an NFL assistant before becoming a head coach. Barry Switzer won a Super Bowl with the Cowboys, although the team was loaded when he got there. Of course, you could go way back to Paul Brown.

But the recent history isn’t good. Butch Davis seemed like a great hire — he had taken a Miami program unders suspension and built a championship team there. But he failed in Cleveland (although that might have been more of a failure as a GM than a coach). Pete Carroll is definately more of a college coach and peope question whether Spurrier had the work ethic necessary for the NFL. I heard someone mention on ESPN this morning that college coaches see the NFL as the “utlimate challenge”, yet they don’t know how much time is required for the job. I think a college coach with experience as an NFL assistant, such as Ferentz, would have a better shot than a guy who’s never been in the NFL.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 2, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I was wrong, Coughlin went straight from head coach at Boston College to Jacksonville. So he’s another example of a successful college coach (but he was an NFL assistant before that).

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 2, 2009 9:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Barry Switzer won a Super Bowl with the Cowboys, although the team was paid for when he got there.

Fixed it for ya.

by gahnki on Jan 3, 2009 1:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dang..I ruined the joked. I was supposed to insert “National Title” with Super Bowl and “Oklahoma” with Cowboys to make it look like:

Barry Switzer won a National Title with Oklahoma, although the team was paid for when he got there.

Bad execution on my part.

by gahnki on Jan 3, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And as a Boston College guy, he is much more likely to succeed in anything he does

by Roger Dorn on Jan 3, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

There’s no bias here. :)

by gahnki on Jan 3, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

To be fair, most examples of College transplant busts are coaches who have never coached in the NFL before. Kirk Ferentz is not that. He was an excellent NFL OL coach.

by math_geek on Jan 3, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Great point

To their credit, the guys listed above have the ability and charm to recruit superior talent. To their detriment, they need superior talent in order to win. When they get on the stage where the talent is spread equally, they fall flat on their face. There will always be exceptions, of course, Jimmy Johnson and Tom Coughlin had the talent to build a team through the draft. Barry Switzer was a huge bust, though he gets credit for winning a Super Bowl. All those Cowboys were Johnson’s Cowboys and Switzer barely won on two mysterious Larry Brown interceptions. Switzer got out in a hurry, or he would have been in the Pete Carroll, Steve Spurrior list.

Jim Tressel has the best job in the country. He will line up with superior talent 11 out of 12 times every year, and I mean FAR superior talent. Any registered voter in the State of Ohio can coach the Buckeyes to at least 8 wins every year. Tressel is a great recruiter, to his credit, which is all it takes to go 10-2 in Columbus every year.

Recruiting ability covers the weaknesses of coaching ability in the college ranks. When you get to the NFL, you have to play with the same cards in your hand. That is why Tressel would be a damn fool if he ever left Ohio State for the Browns.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 3, 2009 9:07 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Jim Tressel has the best job in the country. He will line up with superior talent 11 out of 12 times every year, and I mean FAR superior talent. Any registered voter in the State of Ohio can coach the Buckeyes to at least 8 wins every year. Tressel is a great recruiter, to his credit, which is all it takes to go 10-2 in Columbus every year.

Ohio State has actually recruited very averagely except for the past two seasons. There is a very real upgrade in talent in the past two years.

by gahnki on Jan 3, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

OSU does not have superior talent in 11 out of 12 games. There are many college football programs that recruit top talent, not just OSU.Penn St. and Michigan (and often Wisconsin) usually have just as much talent as OSU, if not more some years. And that doesn’t include the one nonconference game that the Buckeyes always play against a big-time school, such as USC or Texas (and they have Miami, Oklahoma, Virginia Tech, and California on their future schedules). So they can’t just line up every game and dominate because of superior talent, they actually have to play well. Give Tressel and his staff some credit for their coaching.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 4, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Michigan and Penn St. USUALLY compete with OSU in terms of recruited talent. Not in the past 2-3 years. And if you don’t think OSU’s rising upperclassmen have superior talent to michigan’s right now, you are crazy. Penn St is probably going to be horrible next year.

Michigan will rise back up in 2-6 years, depending on if RichRod can get the job done (closer to 2 years) or if they fire him (closer to 6). But lately that game has been too easy.

OSU has superior talent to everyone they will play next year except USC and possibly the bowl game.

Pointing out that Tress is a great recruiter does not take away from his coaching talent: recruiting is part of the job description in college, probably the most important part. He knows he needs to be good at recruiting, he gets the job done. He is also a good in-game coach, and a good leader and he might be able to get it done in the NFL, but I have to agree that he would be stupid to leave. Why leave the Buckeyes?!? He’s making a ton of money, gets to coach an awesome team with tremendous tradition and a lot of pride and he gets to make it a family atmosphere.

by rufio on Jan 4, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course OSU has more talent that Michigan RIGHT NOW — Michigan just finished its worst season in their history. The talent level of teams is fluid and goes up and down, but I’m talking about how much talent those teams generally have (and what kind of recruits they usually get).

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 4, 2009 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The Big Ten is pathetic

Michigan has been going downhill for several years now. Penn State has been more bad than good over the last decade with recruits not trusting an 82-year-old coach. Wisconsin is mediocre at best and the rest of the league is a joke. This is what Ohio State has to line up against. Not to mention Troy, Akron, Bowling Green, Ohio U and all the other JV teams they schedule. Yes, they schedule one and only one quality non-conference opponent. Hooray. Yes, other top teams also schedule cupcakes, but their league schedules are much harder. Ohio State gets the best of both worlds. The state should sponsor a lottery contest to let citizens coach the team after Tressel recruits them. They would still be 10-2 at worst. It is the best coaching job in the country. Tressel would never leave that job for the NFL, where every game is against the LSUs, Floridas and Southern Cals of the world. Things are a little different then.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 4, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ll give you the JV teams, but Iowa just creamed a team from the big bad SEC. Northwestern was watchable this year. Illinios is on the way up. If Michigan St. had a quarterback they would be very good. Minnesota, Purdue, and Indiana are jokes.

It is fashionable to pick on the Big 10, but it isn’t as weak of a league as most think.

by rufio on Jan 4, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If you mention the Iowa win

It should also be mentioned that was the only win. The Big Ten is 1-5 in bowl games. Shameful. And that big bad SEC team was a mediocre 6-6 this year. I think we all know what happens when the best of the Big Ten plays the best of the SEC, and it is not pretty. There is good reason why it is fashionable to pick on the Big Ten.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 4, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe we should invite Utah to the Big Ten?

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 4, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Correction:

Maybe we should invite Utah to the Big ~~Ten~~ Eleven

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jan 5, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey if we get 12 teams we could have a championship game.

by danvail on Jan 5, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Championship games are for nothing more than to make more money. Just ask Texas this year.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

quoting bowl records for a conference is spurious and laughable.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 7, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

1-5, yes, but OSU was supposed to get completely dominated and it took a last minute TD to beat them. USC should have been in the title game and not playing PSU. Wisconsin was bad this year and should not have been in a bowl game. MSU doesn’t have a legit highschool QB.

The ACC and Big East are TERRIBLE. Why does no one pick on them? Florida St. and Miami are shadows of their former selves, but for whatever reason they get matched up with bottom feeders/middle of the pack teams from other conferences so they win bowl games. Meanwhile, OSU and Penn St get to play two legit title contenders who are seeded higher than their Big 10 opponents. OSU wipes the floor with anyone in the Big East, soundly beats everyone from the ACC, and competes with all three teams at the top of the Big 12.

Did you watch the LSU-OSU game? It was a far cry from complete domination. If our dumbass LB gets the ball instead of the punter, it is a whole new ballgame. Beanie Wells ran away from all that “SEC speed”, and LSU’s All-American safety.

Florida, I’ll give you. That was a complete embarrassment and the players were clearly too arrogant to work hard leading up to the game.

by rufio on Jan 8, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know the Big Ten has been down the past couple years. Every college football announcer and fan reminds us all the time. But the quality of conferences is cyclical and it will be back up again soon. The Pac-10 sucked this year, too (outside of USC), unti lthey decided to turn it on for the bowl games. The Big Ten has always been one of the 2 or 3 best football conferences in the country and will be back near the top again soon. If you disagree then you don’t know much about college football.

So you can’t say OSU’s schedule is a joke every year. That’s simply not true. and you’re not giving credit to the coaching of Tressel and his staff. You an idiot if you think any football coach could go 10-2 at OSU every year. Tressel won FOUR national championships at Youngstown State, not exactly a hotbed of recruiting. He’s a great football coach.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 4, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Your knowledge on this subject is very, very wrong. I would advise anyway against discussing this with you, because you really do not know very much, and it would only lead to frustration. There is little of what you stated above that is factual or true. I think all would appreciate it if you would stop spewing this nonsense.

by gahnki on Jan 4, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

When did this turn into an OSU blog?

by exposition on Jan 5, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Say what you want

But when the Buckeyes had the ball second and two at the Texas 15 and 210 left to play. I screamed at the TV to run a QB dive. Gain a yard, maybe yard-and-a-half. Set up third and 12 inches. Texas had two timetouts. If OSU runs two QB dives they run out the clock and kick a field goal to win. This is not hindsight, it is foresight. When Ohio State scored their TD, they gave new life to Texas, who took advantage of it. You can insult my knowledge all you want. Put Tressel in the NFL where he can’t beat up on inferior talent, he goes the same way as Spurrior and Butch Davis. In the meantime, enjoy your wins over Indiana, Minnesota, Purdue, Youngstown State, Kent State, Akron, Troy, Bowling Green whatever. Enjoy them.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 9, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What the hell is your problem? Nobody said Tressel would be a great NFL coach. Many college coaches haven’t succeeded in the NFL — does that make them bad coaches? The NFL and college are different games. There are probably NFL coaches that couldn’t succeed in college.

But if you’re trying to knock Tressel’s coaching abilities, you have no idea what you’re talking about. John Cooper had great talent every year at OSU and he never won a national championship. Many colleges have superior talent, but very few win a national championship and win mulitple conference titles like Tressel has. Also, you’re forgetting Tresse’s time before OSU. Let me repeat this for you — he won FOUR NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS at Youngstown State before coming to Ohio State. Are you going to tell me that YSU had “superior talent” all those years and anybody could have coached those teams? Do you think recruits are lining up to play at YSU? I don’t think so. Trust me, I spent 5 years at YSU. It’s not a top destination by any means. But Tressel recruited good enough players and coached them to win FOUR national titles. And you think just anybody could do that?

Also, your strategy for the OSU game doesn’t make sense. If Texas had 2 timeouts, how could OSU run two QB dives and run out the clock? Obviously that wouldn’t have happened. Texas would have called those timeouts and still got the ball back with about 2 minutes left. And then Texas would have needed only a field goal to win, not a touchdown. But, yeah, I’m sure you could coach OSU to 8 wins because you’re just as smart as Tressel.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You obviously didn't major in math

Two dive plays gets you two yards and a fresh first down, which gives you four more plays. Six total. Texas takes their two timeouts which means OSU gets four plays to run off 40 seconds, the last one being the game-winning field goal. Ohio State could have completely controlled the clock.

Yes, maybe Texas stuffs the dive plays, maybe the short field goal gets botched or blocked, but football is a game of playing the percentages. Two dive plays to pick up two yards total, followed by three kneel-downs and a chip shot field goal was absolutely the best percentage to win that football game. Giving Texas the ball and new life to answer with two minutes was not.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 9, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I actually did major in math, believe it or not. I didn’t know you assumed getting a first down. If they did, then they could run time off the clock. I agree with that. But there was no guarentee of that happening.

But you still haven’t told me how a coach who has won four 1-AA national titles at YSU and one more at OSU isn’t that great of a coach.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Then again, maybe my math degree from YSU isn’t worth very much, kind of like how you think Tressel’s national championships at YSU aren’t worth very much, evidently.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I never said Tressel wasn't a good coach

He beat Miami as a 14-point underdog to win the national championship. The points that I made are the following:

1) Of course there are no guarantees, but as a coach you play your best percentages. And no (to the other guy who said hindsight), I screamed at the TV to run a one-yard dive. I honestly believe OSU would have won that game with smart clock management. Remember Brian Westbrook?

2) Tressel is a great recruiter.

3) Ohio State will again have four guys taken in the first round of the NFL draft, maybe early second, as they seem to do most years. Considering their massive talent advantage over at least three non-conference foes plus the lower half of the Big Ten, winning 9-10 games in Columbus is not a difficult coaching challenge. John Cooper even did it and got run out of town, and he was a horrible coach (good recruiter).

4) Tressel would be a fool to leave a guaranteed 9-10 wins every year to be in the NFL, where the talent is spread equally in every game. Pete Carroll, Steve Spurrior, Nick Saban and Butch Davis, all in similar positions to Ohio State where they can easily manhandle 9-10 teams every year with superior talent, found that out the hard way.

Those were the points I made. Which among them is inaccurate?

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 9, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

2) Tressel is a great recruiter.

Tressel had actually been universally criticized by OSU recruiting followers for poor results pre-2008. He is a good recruiter, but Ohio State did not have the more talented team in any of their National Championship losses. The only argument I would hold is the 2007 game, yet Florida clearly held an edge on line talent.

by gahnki on Jan 9, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The state should sponsor a lottery contest to let citizens coach the team after Tressel recruits them. They would still be 10-2 at worst.

When you claim that any person in the state could do just as good of a job coaching Ohio State as Tressel does, I consider that criticizing Tressel’s coaching. Do you really think YOU could coach OSU to a 10-2 record? Don’t kid yourself. You constantly claim the Buckeyes can just line up and beat most of their opponents without even trying. You’re discounting all the work that the players and the coaches do to prepare for the games.

Do you think any guy off the street could coach Youngstown State to FOUR national championships? Did they just line up and beat all those teams because of their great recruits without any help from the coaching staff?

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m still waiting for an answer, maryrose. How was the above comment not a knock on Tressel’s coaching abilities?

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 11, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not going to keep repeating myself

And keep this thread alive anymore. At Ohio State the baseline is nine wins, maybe 10 now that Michigan stinks. When Cooper was coaching in an 11-game schedule, the baseline was 8 wins, meaning 8 wins were a given considering all but one non-conference foe plus the bulk of the Big Ten, OSU has a massive talent advantage. Remember, John Cooper was run out of town because all he could do was win the baseline.

Thus, Tressel is judged on three games a year. That is his real record. The bowl game, plus their one decent non-conference game, plus whichever Big Ten team decides to be a factor.

I never said he was a bad coach. He won half his bowl games, beat Miami for the national title, and beat Michigan 7 of 8, which is a major improvement over Cooper. All I am saying is to judge Tressel on those three games per year, not all the rif-raf they play during the season. John Cooper proves my point. Those Akron/Kent/Minnesota/Indiana games do not matter. And yes, any coach can win those games with that talent advantage.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 12, 2009 8:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

this is absolutely hindsight…when you’re losing, you have to score. i believe it’s that simple. it’s nice to take into account clock, etc., but you flat out have to take the lead. especially with the way the defense had played, scoring and turning your fate over to them was not a bad risk.

i don’t know what “new life” for texas is supposed to mean. they were energized by going down 4 w/ 2 minutes left? i think not.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 9, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have a bigger problem with not one safety valve being used with under 20 seconds left.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 9, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah. They were keeping the recievers in front of them the whole drive, making them drive down the field and use time, and then they send the house with 20 seconds left? One guy misses a tackle and the game is over. Bad defensive call (and not Tressel’s call).

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I did not agree with the decision either. But if it works out, and Anderson comes up with the ball, it is lauded as the play of the game.

by gahnki on Jan 9, 2009 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Energized by new life

Absolutely. If Ohio State gets two yards on two plays, Texas uses their timeouts and Ohio State simply takes a knee for three plays while the clock runs down to 4 seconds and then kicks the winning field goal. Can the field goal get botched or blocked? Sure, there are no guarantees, but that was clearly the best chance for OSU to win that game with Colt McCoy a frustrated spectator while the clock ran out. How is that not clear? And hindsight, absolutely not. I screamed it in foresight.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 9, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure, there are no guarantees, but that was clearly the best chance for OSU to win that game with Colt McCoy a frustrated spectator while the clock ran out. How is that not clear? And hindsight, absolutely not. I screamed it in foresight.

Are you sure about that? I think scoring a touchdown, and then making Texas drive 80 yards in two minutes is a pretty good bet to win. You just don’t leave points on the board.

by gahnki on Jan 9, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly. Was there any reason to expect the defense to completely fold like that? No. You score the touchdown and leave the game in the hands of one of the best defenses in the nation. Had Tressel just shoved the ball up the guy he would have been rightly derided for being excessively conservative. The blame here doesn’t lie in that call, or anything the offense did. The blames lies with a very good defense that suffered a very bad hiccup.

And Grady not batting second.

by fwembt on Jan 10, 2009 3:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

has tressel tried growing a beard for any of these BCS games?? instant grit…

by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 10, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Also, they still ran the ball. They didn’t do something as stupid as try to throw the TD. It was Boom, not Beanie, and I didn’t see that play going for a TD when the ball was snapped.

by rufio on Jan 10, 2009 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am not insulting your knowledge or intellect, merely your position. It is decidedly non-factual. It is obviously an opinion, but it is not even a particularly well thought out one.

But when the Buckeyes had the ball second and two at the Texas 15 and 210 left to play. I screamed at the TV to run a QB dive. Gain a yard, maybe yard-and-a-half. Set up third and 12 inches. Texas had two timetouts. If OSU runs two QB dives they run out the clock and kick a field goal to win.

This is a very ridiculous complaint. You play to put points on the board. What if the quarterback loses yards on the QB dive? Now, you have 3rd and medium with no more time off the clock because Texas used their timeout. What if the field goal is missed? Now, Ohio State loses just like that. Very poor complaint here. This is the reason ’hindsight is 20/20" is a popular phrase.

Put Tressel in the NFL where he can’t beat up on inferior talent, he goes the same way as Spurrior and Butch Davis.

Steve Spurrier lost, because he insisted on running his system in the NFL. His system relies on isolating wide receivers on slower linebackers. Well, linebackers can run a bit faster in the NFL than college. Look at how his prodigal offense is doing at USC now. Not well at all. Every coach needs talent..to deny that is to deny the basics of the game.

As for how Tressel would do, that point is purely conjecture. You do not know. I know that he works extremely hard. I know he has a passion for being a football coach. And I also know that players would respect him, because he respects them. Do I know if he would succeed? No, but neither do you.

In the meantime, enjoy your wins over Indiana, Minnesota, Purdue, Youngstown State, Kent State, Akron, Troy, Bowling Green whatever. Enjoy them.

Purely childish.

by gahnki on Jan 9, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, linebackers can run a bit faster in the NFL than college.

Not to mention that DL (and the pass rush in general) are a lot faster.

by rufio on Jan 10, 2009 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Steve Spurrier lost, because he insisted on running his system in the NFL. His system relies on isolating wide receivers on slower linebackers. Well, linebackers can run a bit faster in the NFL than college. Look at how his prodigal offense is doing at USC now.

To expound on this a bit, Spurrier’s system was a spread based entirely on timing. If you have a chance to see some video on some of his earlier team, you will find that he will always have his quarterback under center. Even five wide, in an obvious passing situation, they be taking the snap under the center. His offense was so timing based that a quarterback would equate a certain step in his drop back with a progression in the routes. He added shotgun a later to give his quarterback more of a chance.

by gahnki on Jan 10, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Shanahan would be the best option here. It disturbs me that we haven’t heard anything connecting him to us.

by fwembt on Jan 2, 2009 4:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I would love Shanny as a coach without doubling as GM

by Roger Dorn on Jan 2, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Shanahan would be a total disaster, and gone in 3 years, max.

by kwoog on Jan 2, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why? He has a great track record in Denver.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 2, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not that high on Shannahan either. He has only worked at one place for the last fourteen years. How does he adapt outside of Denver? Does he still have the motivation to coach? I mean, to really coach, not just take millions and do a job.

by gahnki on Jan 2, 2009 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

From what I hear, Shanahan is one of those workaholic coaches who loves to put in long days at the office (although I guess most coaches are like that). He doesn’t seem like the type to take a job just for the money, but because coaching is his life. I think he’ll do great with a fresh start.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 2, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He might. I just don’t know either way. It’s just one of those questions the Browns decision-makers will have to find out.

by gahnki on Jan 2, 2009 8:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think his track record is great, especially in such a consistently weak division.

by kwoog on Jan 3, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

To give a more detailed response, Shanahan has a specific “program” that he implemented in Denver for a long time. Obviously he believes in it and would want bring it here. However, the chances are that a lot of our current (talented) players would not be the greatest fit to his system. Combine this with the fact that he is not a good evaluator of talent, and the transition to a successful “Shanahan-style” team would definitely not be possible in 3 or 4 years. Lerner/fans would lose patience and we’d be starting over again.

Savage should have been retained. That isn’t possible b/c Lerner, a nepotism-beneficiary “businessman”, fired him. Thus, the next best thing is to have another personnel guru come in and build on the many successes already in place… but this time hire his own Coach, with no prerequisites other than they have the talent to succeed.

by kwoog on Jan 3, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

rec

by danvail on Jan 3, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that Shannahan is a bad evaluator of talent, particularly on defense. He also might not know how to hire a DC.

But he is a phenomenal offensive mind. With a GM in place who had the final say on roster decisions, would you take Shannahan? I would, no doubt. I don’t think he would take the job, or any job in 2009, but I would still love to see it happen.

by rufio on Jan 4, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think the problem is that he would want to be in control of personel. If you look at what he did with Denver’s drafting and FA, you should be afraid. I mean Mo Clarett in the third round?

If he wants to be a coach and only a coach, I’m down. If he wants to be personel boss and coach, I’ll pass.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 2, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t see Lerner giving him full power. After the Butch Davis experience, I don’t see the Browns doing that again.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 2, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am in the Pioli camp. Him and Ferentz must go way back. I know they worked under Belichek on Bills wonderful time here in Cleveland, so who knows.
I just hope Pioli takes the job soon.

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on Jan 2, 2009 7:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Today the Day?

Is today the day we find out if Pioli takes the job? He moved his interview with the Chiefs up to today instead of Monday so that he can make a decision. What do you guys think?

by drunkrooster on Jan 3, 2009 10:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

What about the idea of Crennel staying on in some capacity? Is it just me or wouldn’t that be more than a bit awkward for the players who return to the roster next year? Sure, we can say that they’re professionals and it’s up to them to adjust to whatever the coaching situation is, but if they are really such professionals then we shouldn’t need to worry about brining in a coach who can instill discipline.

I don’t really know which of the candidates is going to make the best HC for the Browns, but I would like it to be someone who can figure out how best to use the players he’s given. It would be nice to just have a locker room full of super talented players, but it’s more realistic to think that the coach is going to have make his (NFL) average players look no worse than average, and perhaps at times above average.

by JustBob on Jan 3, 2009 7:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I think it would be more awkward for Romeo than the players. It rarely happens in the NFL (mostly because of pride) but Romeo still has a fistfull of rings, a great track record at DC, and the players still love him based on all of the things I have read.

If he is still going to drop 8/rush 3 I don’t want him, though.

by rufio on Jan 4, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Do you think Lerner watched the Ravens – Dolphins game today?

by palcal on Jan 4, 2009 4:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Can I vote “ok with either”, its bascially a crapshoot regardless.

by vegasbrown on Jan 5, 2009 9:24 AM EST reply actions 1 recs

exactly. We can debate all we like on who we would like, but we have no idea who will be good and who won’t. It’s up to the guys on the insdie to make a well informed sound decision regardless of the track records and hollywood appeal of certain candidates. I’m happy with Piloi, Mangini or Joe Schmo as long as the one that is picked can do the job which we won’t know for quite some time.

by dvd1204 on Jan 5, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That’s no fun right now. Part of the fun of being a fan is making partially-informed judgements.

by danvail on Jan 5, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course we’ll all be happy with someone if they win a championship — what’s your point? We don’t know that now, so all we can do is speculate on who we think is the best candidate based on what we know now. That’s like saying we shouldn’t talk about the draft because we don’t know how good any of the players will be in the NFL. If all we did was talk about what we KNEW for certain, then there wouldn’t be much discussion on this site.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 5, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

all we can do is speculate on who we think is the best candidate based on what we know now

My point is we know nothing now, and I have a feeling that we still know more than Lerner.

I don’t mean to rain on the parade. I understand that this is the fun part for fans. Outside of Schottenheimer ~~or Parcells~~ (who have won in multiple locations despite ownership), I just cannot get excited when the team still has no direction from ownership…

One day it’s an all powerful coach in Cohwer. The next day it’s the “proven” gm type with Pioli. Oh wait, we interviewed a coach, Mangini, who impressed and his career progression somewhat, if we squint really hard, mirrors Belichick’s. He’s gonna win 3 superbowls in the next four years! We got to have this coach! Let’s interview his buddy for GM! We can’t lose!

by dvd1204 on Jan 5, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

OK….so who do you want?

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 5, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I really don’t know. I only have limited exposure to all these guys, but if I had to pick knowing that i know nothing, I’d take Savage as a GM and Schottenheimer as coach. Out of the names being tossed around, I’m actually intrigued by Kokinis simply because I think (again with absolutely no knowledge so) that he would continue to build upon the processes that Savage has put in place. I suspect that our talent evaluation processes are now similar to Baltimore’s and thus not foreign to Kokinis. I believe Mangini is tremendously overrated, but if he was announced tomorrow, I’d be behind him for at least 3 years and probably 5. If Joe Schmo and Buckeye Brad were announced as the new GM and coach, I’d be behind you as well and give you no less than 3 years to prove yourself as well.

I understand that the speculation is fun, but I guess my experience tells me that big names have no more of a success rate than the no-names, so I’m left to trust that ownership is making the best decision possible. As a Brown’s fan that’s a huge leap of faith.

by dvd1204 on Jan 6, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

the most important thing, to me, is to get some people in the building with experience. that doesn’t mean we should hire lane kiffin b/c he coached 1.5 years in oakland, but you get my point. we haven’t hired a non-rookie coach since before schottenheimer. gimme a guy who’s worn the headset, working with a guy who’s been a decision maker manning the phones.

that said, i would have answered pioli to this prior to the mangini news.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 7, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This is all the more reason to have kept Savage, b/c we had empirical evidence that he could get the job done.

by kwoog on Jan 5, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I was all for keeping Savage but you’re taking things a little to far. I don’t know how much evidence we had that he could get things done; he did many things well but there were also many mistakes that you could point out. You’ve been defending him a little too strongly on this site I think. Calling him “one of the best young personnel men in the NFL” is a stretch.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 5, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It’s what he was 4 years ago. And since then by any measurable he has drastically improved the talent on a team that was probably the worst in all of football.

by kwoog on Jan 5, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

which, in and of itself, is completely meaningless. by definition “a team that was probably the worst in all of football” would have no direction to go but up as far as talent. improving the talent on the team, in a vacuum, is utterly without relevance. how much did the talent improve relative to the rest of the league? (rhetorical question…we don’t need to get into these weeds again)

by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 7, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We were better than Detroit when Savage took over.

by rufio on Jan 8, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Respectfully disagree.

by kwoog on Jan 8, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Savage’s basic problem was that he is an immature person who could not get along with people (the public, Collins, Crennel, Lerner). The fact that people around the NFL are now dismissing the roster he has built is just icing on the cake.

by palcal on Jan 5, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Collins is a MKT executive, so it’s a sign of good character that Phil couldn’t get along with him.

Crennel repeatedly backed Savage, even in his power struggle with Collins.

“Immature” is complete conjecture on your part. Even if he is a bit thin skinned, or “immature,” the man has objectively gone from the lowest rung in his profession to the highest, at an amazingly impressive rate. Assuming that he can’t “get along with people” despite being able to execute multiple trades, getting 100% support from players and coaches not named Winslow, etc is simple fan overreaction. I’m sure Belichick, Reid, Walsh, etc couldn’t “get along” with some of the people they encountered along the way. The difference is they were given time to improve at their job.

Stability is key.

by kwoog on Jan 5, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

As a young developing manager, Savage needed to report to someone who could mentor him. I don’t think Lerner played that role, both by choice and by temperament.

by palcal on Jan 6, 2009 3:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mentor him at what? What did he do wrong? Send an email with a “dirty” word (what are we, gradeschoolers)? Hire the wrong person who hired the wrong person who hired the wrong person who hired a twenty-something PR rep who texted Winslow a stupid thing?

Here’s my take on the “management style” question: the Browns draft and player acquisition departments have never run more smoothly or aggressively as it did under Savage. He struck like lightening multiple times in the beginning of the FA/trade season, whether they worked out wonderfully (Rogers) or were bad luck (Bentley, Baxter). All three of these were players HIGHLY covetted by other teams… teams that lost out to the Browns. He also executed draft day trades that were aggressive, gutsy, important, and widely lauded (even if the verdict hasn’t, and will never be finally written). And this all happened b/c he revamped the scouting/drafting/player contracts departments from the ground up, as there was basically nothing to keep from the Davis era. And he did it immediately, by obviously working ungodly hours, instead of wearing a suit and sitting at a desk like Collins wanted. That’s effective management style in football.

by kwoog on Jan 6, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Where does emailing crude insults to fans work in there? I really think that damaged Savage more than we are considering.

by fwembt on Jan 7, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m sure it did, that’s my B. It should be inconsequential, but instead it sounds like it was a driving reason.

by kwoog on Jan 7, 2009 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I can’t agree with inconsequential. This man, for better or worse, is the face of a professional organization. Responding to emails from idiots is bad enough, doing it with an expletive is inexcusable. Where I agree is that should not have been the main factor in his firing. As one factor, sure. As the whole thing, no way.

by fwembt on Jan 7, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Does anybody really think this was just some “fan”? From the sounds of it, they were going back and forth for a while, and they had a history. Do you have Savage’s email? Do you think you could get it? I don’t. So I hardly doubt he’s receiving, much less responding to, “emails from idiots.”

by kwoog on Jan 7, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

psavage@clevelandbrowns.com

although it’s probably disconnected now…

by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 7, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have said it before and will say again, no one should have had Savage’s real email address.

There should have been a form letter response/room of interns who answer email if they wanted to set up an account like that to make fans think they were contacting him.

by rufio on Jan 8, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But how are we supposed to make draft suggestions to the GM? Who do you think told Savage to take Thomas and trade up for Quinn — that was me!!!!!!

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 8, 2009 7:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I just don’t understand how that isn’t protocol for every professional organization.

by gahnki on Jan 8, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

how effective his management style can be reflected in two ways, in my opinion, one that can be measured right now, and one that will bear out over time:

1. working with romeo (the one that can be measured now). we can argue about romeo’s shortcomings as a coach, but by all accounts the relationship with savage was completely fractured. there is zero question that that is the most important relationship for savage in the building, and the fact that he (romeo is culpable, too) let it sink to such a level is an indictment of savage (and romeo)

2. your effusive praise for savage’s scouting/drafting/player contracts department cannot be supported or refuted, explicitly, TODAY (the one that is yet to be borne out). what will flesh this one out is how many of savage’s people remain with the browns, are picked up by other organizations, and are ultimately elevated to higher positions in other organizations. if he truly built the great wall, as you suggest, some of his people will ascend to positions of some prominence in the football world. in my opinion, that is unlikely, just as yours is that it is likely…it will take time to see.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 7, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Is Lerner qualified to hire a coach? Shouldn’t he leave that to the GM?

by palcal on Jan 5, 2009 4:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

It’s amazing how, just a few days ago, it was almost certain that Scott Pioli would be receiving the job. Now, it looks like we are going with someone from the Baltimore Ravens personnel department and an ex-Belichick minion. Deja Vu, indeed.

by gahnki on Jan 5, 2009 6:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Savage was creative

I feared that about him. He used all the weapons available at his disposal. He didn’t just wait for his turn to draft. He was ahead of the power curve. He had the knowledge to get Thomas first and then when Quinn kept falling, traded for him later in the round. Quinn remains the future of the franchise. He then traded more draft picks for those beasts on the defensive line and put together the secondary that was pretty darn good. I think the Browns were among the leaders in turnovers gained. They held half their opponents this year to 17 points or less and the almighty Manning brothers scored exactly 17 combined. You’e never going to bat 1,000 and some of the nightmares that happened to him and them were awful luck, but you could feel Savage ticking 24 hours a day thinking of ways to improve his club in any means possible, both conventional and unconventional. I am glad he is out of Cleveland (from a rival perspective) and I’ll bet the farm he succeeds elsewhere. The Browns problem lately has been coaching.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 5, 2009 7:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Exactly. I was going to ask for your perspective, maryrose.

And this is the perspective of someone who knows football (as most of us do on this site), but along with that X&O knowledge, knows successful football (which we Browns fans don’t… unless we have a really, really good memory of a time when the game was completely different).

by kwoog on Jan 5, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The problem with Savage wasn’t picking players to fill out his roster. It was how he dealt with people in the orginization. He clashed with Collins, Crennel, Fans and Winslow. I doubt those are the only people he had a problem with during his time. Those are just the ones we know about.

Savage was miscast as a face of a franchise. Not his fault, but he needed to go. This season got out of control and instead of Savage stepping in front of the PR mess and controling it, he fueled the fire. That is what did him in, not his ability to pick out young football players.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The fans pretty much single handedly saved Savage’s job, along w/ help from Crennel. Two people of import clashed w/ Savage in four years… Collins and Winslow. If you want to count December-Crennel, fine, but it Savage had a reason to call out him out for such an egregious dereliction of duties (Steptoe’s PT, Harrison’s lackthereof, game management, field goals, hurry up offense, etc etc etc).

The revisionist history on here is almost as amazing as the sudden lack of football knowledge. We’re not talking about Pepsi signing Britney Spears to star in their commercials and be the “face of the brand.” Again, I ask, do you think Kevin Colbert, or Ozzie Newsome, or Pioli/Belichick have ever sat around and practiced this?

by kwoog on Jan 6, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Listen, I don’t mind that Savage had an issue with Crennel’s coaching decisions. But the way that Savage went about it is a microcosm of why he was fired. Name me one other GM that called out their head coach in the media? I can’t think of any. Winning franchises don’t do this. He threw Romeo under the bus to shift blame off of him plain and simple. It was a desperate move by a man to save his own job. What coach would ever like to coach for him knowing that when things get tough Savage will go into CYA mode?

If he had a problem with the way Crennel was coaching, it was his job to take care of this behind the scene. Not at a press conference. And if Crennel then did not change his ways, fire him. Not turn it into a circus.

And my meaning of face of the franchise is this; a leader. When you think of a team’s front office, who do you think of? When you think of the Cleveland Indians, you think of Mark Shapiro. You trust that when he trades for Mark DeRosa, you have a trust factor that the move will probably work out. Did Lion fans trust Matt Millen? Teams need a person to be at the fore front of team matters and handle situations. This franchise needed a leader that can/will lead this team. Savage is a great scout, but not a leader.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Point taken. I’m not sure how overt his throwing Crennel under the bus was… i recall him simply saying that he doesn’t choose who plays, etc, which obviously has a connotation of shifting blame. So I get it. But it’s hard for me to fault him, b/c I felt the same way (ie, i agreed w/ the second-guessing of gameday decision making).

I just wish he had gotten to hire a coach to be the Leader you speak of. Then i think he would have continued on his path from great scout to great GM, which is where I thought he was headed.

by kwoog on Jan 6, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Here is some small tidbits;

’’I’ve said it on this program a number of times,‘’ Savage said. ’’Hey, my responsibility is the 53-man roster, and then it’s Romeo and the rest of the coaching staff’s decision how to utilize the 45 players that are dressed on Sunday. Who starts. Who plays. When they’re gonna play. How they’re gonna be utilized.

‘’If I’m going to get involved in those decisions, then I may as well put a headset on and double my salary.’’

In other words “not my bad that fatty can’t win with the Pro Bowlers I have given him.”

Then he called the loss to the Texans the worst loss since he has been in Cleveland. I guess he missed that ass kicking the Steelers gave us to end the Charlie Frye expierence.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 7, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In all honesty, what he said was just a simple description of the job responsibilities. That block quote could just as easily be prefaced with this question, “What do you think about Derek Anderson, a career third stringer, coming out and throwing 5 TD passes a week after the debacle that was the Steelers game?”

Okay, maybe I’m reaching (haha), but still, i think he was frustrated. I’d blame him more if the coaching wasn’t so egregious. And I don’t think another talented head coach wouldn’t work for him after that. But it’s quite possible I’m wrong.

by kwoog on Jan 7, 2009 12:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i do think you’re reaching.. i see it as more akin to derek anderson saying, when asked about braylon’s drops, “it’s my job to throw the ball in places where braylon can catch them…it’s not my fault if he can’t catch them. i can’t throw and catch”.

for that, anderson would be skewered in the media for abandoning edwards. he’d be called a TO. we should expect the same professional conduct from the suits as we do the players.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 7, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't throw Terri Hatcher out of bed for eating crackers

Whatever friction there was with Collins resulted from A) two guys having overlap responsibilities and B) one of them completely incompetent as a football guy. Don’t know what clash he had with fans, except for one. I don’t trust Winslow to fault Savage and the Crennel thing isn’t moving me far. I am not saying Savage isn’t like the rest of us in that he lives and learns. I am saying he was relentless in his pursuit of massively upgrading the talent on the Browns. There was still more work to be done, but I thought he was doing it pretty well. The problem with the Browns was that Romeo was thinking Arby’s too much standing on the sidelines.

Thoughtful discussion with a sense of history

by maryrose on Jan 6, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am not defending Romeo in any sort of manner. I’m just saying that Savage, for lack of a better term, had blood on his hands also. I wouldn’t have been pissed if Savage would have been kept on staff, but he would to have been paired with a strong HC.

Only problem is that a well-known respected HC would not have come in here and worked under Savage after the way he threw Romeo under the bus. While Romeo was a bad HC this past season, he is still one of the most respected coaches in the league, and the manner in which Savage handled the situation was more than enough reason for him to be removed.

In what company is it considered smart for your number one employee to toss your number two guy under the bus in the media? Doesn’t happen to good a company. The Browns are facing an important off-season that could change this franchise for the next couple of years. A bad hire, and we will waste the best years of BE and K2. Coach is probably gone in 3-4 years and Brady is learning his 3rd offense in 5 years. What good QB faces that much turnover in his first five years? This offseason is the most important offseason since 1999. Lerner didn’t trust Savage to right this ship, and I don’t blame him.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs