Dolphins want Cribbs?
Just a rumor right now. I wouldn't put anything by Mangini right now.
That being said, if he deals Cribbs, I may puke.
Update: Jason La Canfora is reporting that the Browns are taking calls from six teams, but as of right now, aren't planning on trading Cribbs. So, nothing has changed.
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Bernie19Kosar
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Headline should read: 31 NFL teams want Cribbs
by Roger Dorn on Oct 15, 2009 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
actually a rumor that the Colts are interested has popped up
which probably means nothing given how tight a hold the Colts FO keeps on info, but the Colts return game was awful last year and hasn’t been anything special this year, so it would make a bit of sense.
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
by shake n bake on Oct 15, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Colts also interested
I know you guys dont like it, but I hope we can acquire him. Colts have never had a special teams weapon. It would make there offense and defense that much better
mangini should be taking all calls right now…including for cribbs. if you can turn a special teams ace into some high-ish picks and/or an every down player or two? you gotta listen.
I’m not saying that he is untouchable, but we better get a nice return for him.
As of right now, he is the ONLY weapon that this team has. He has our longest rush of the season.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 15, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
i couldn’t agree more, but you have to listen…ESPECIALLY, now that it’s coming to light that there are several teams interested. if you can create some kind of bidding war, you could really turn a legit contributor into some meaningful picks/players. to me, that’s trading up.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 15, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
Miami just lost their KO returner so it makes sense. Can you imagine giving Peyton Manning good field position on a consistent basis?
Ask for a second rounder and a throw in (Melvin Bullitt with Bob Sanders coming back? That’s probably a little too rich.)
But I hope that all parties realize that we don’t HAVE to trade anyone right now.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 15, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
as much as it would hurt, you’re right, you have to listen to any and all offers.
to be honest though…. from a legit contender like the Colts, I’d be asking for their 1st, straight up. their 2nd rounder is 50-60, and i don’t know if you trade Cribbs for a Massaquoi or Veikune.
You are reading my signature.
Agree that we should be listening. However, to actually pull the trigger on a deal for Cribbs, it’d better be an absolutely STELLAR trade.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 16, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
please give ryan pontbriand his due…
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 15, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mr. Dorn, I don´t think you should quit the team following any personnel change at the moment. Aren´t we agreed that to escape disparity we need some major changes? Don´t announce such a consequence, there are good things ahead.
The Browns aren’t going to trade Joe Thomas under ANY circumstances — that’s why he made that comment. We all know this team needs major changes, but Thomas is one of our few long-term building blocks.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 16, 2009 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions
He is a guy worth franchising, a guy that will be good and valuable to the team under any situation, any coaching regime.
You´re absolutely right. He is a very valuable player, both financially and personally. Pending necessary changes to the roster and organization, what if he wants to leave?
It would be sad if Thomas wanted to leave. Braylon Edwards I foresaw him pushing his way out of Cleveland, but I don’t see the same happening with Thomas. I think he will be a Brown for 10-15 years.
Yeah, he seems like a stalwart. His worth is probably doubted 0%. What will happen however, if he stays, is he has to see many of his teammates leave, and it would be great if he could stay mum about it.
I also see a problem in having Phil Trautwein, who I think will be excellent as the type of big guy you want at blind side tackle. You could line him up in the QB´s line of sight at right offensive tackle as a bookmark, but I prefer a scrappy type of player there, to keep the QB excited and maybe be the one to indicate the line breaking down, if that´s possible.
you see a problem in that phil trautwein might challenge or displace thomas at LT? interesting…has trautwein ever played a down?
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 16, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Phil Trautwein is big and strong, and coming from a dominant national championship team, the Florida Gators, should still count as a quality designation.
Like I said, I think he could be a good bookend complement to Joe Thomas, so definitely worth retaining.
Could he effectively displace him? Too soon to call it.
I like a scrappy line of sight right offensive tackle, like Ryan Clady is one, that´s why I was sad to see George Foster go. For the same reason, Floyd Womack who is somewhere inbetween a guard and tackle, is servicable.
by mooncamping on Oct 16, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
He isn’t all that valuable financially. At least not directly. It’s not like people are buying his jersey left and right.
Well, right. They aren´t buying his jersey, yet.
But once again, can´t we make stars instead of buying them?
The Browns don’t need money. They make a lot of money even when they are bad and even when they are bad in a bad economy (see: last year).
Stars make you money. Great players get you wins. Great players aren’t always stars.
Joe Thomas is a great player, he just happens to play one of the less flashy positions.
So Shapiro’s at it again. How are we ever going to build any fan loyalty when he keeps dumping players for future talent at the trading deadline??? Come this point in the season, it never fails. Ahhh, such is the life of a Cleveland Indians fan.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
mangini’s been the coach for 5 games. relax.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 15, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, this really has nothing to do with baseball so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
But since you brought it up, that’s how small market teams need to operate in MLB. They can’t afford to spend big money to resign those players — and it’s not smart to spend that much money on players in their 30’s anyways — so they trade them for young players to build the team around. After all, that’s how we got Sizemore and Lee and Cabrera and Choo and LaPorta and Santana and so many other players.
Fans are going to be loyal if you build a winning team — they don’t need to keep all their players past their prime to “build fan loyalty” as you’re saying.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 15, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Money is not an issue, unless you´re not spending enough on less hyped players that are important to you´re team.
Yes, money is a huge issue in baseball.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 16, 2009 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Ahhh, such is the life of a Cleveland Indians Browns fan.
Fixed!
Actually, I find it ironic that these guys are brothers-in-law and find themselves in very similar situations. I wonder if the Shapiros (both father and son) are giving Mangini some negotiating hints. I’m very hopeful a trade will yield substantial value. If we have a bidding war, what can we hope for? Mangini also has the luxury of keeping him for the remainder of his contract, so he doesn’t have a “gun to his head” to make a deal. And many teams would love to have Cribbs on ST.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
NO
Josh Cribbs is more then a return man, more then the best special teams player in the NFL.
Many times last year I remember thinking, thank God for Joshua Cribbs, or these guys would be unwatchable.
He is the only player I see give consistent effort every single week, and he plays with intensity and heart everytime he steps onto the field.
He is exactly what Cleveland is about, a hard-working, class act man who changed postions and adapted on the fly out of college to become the best in the world at what he does.
Joshua Cribbs should be considered a true UNTOUCHABLE, and he should be made the face of the franchise. He’s the only threat we have, and the only player who Browns fans can be proud of.
Please Eric, don’t take Josh away from us.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
hard working, class act, only player fans can be proud of…blah blah blah. that’s all well and good, but what’s the browns’ record since cribbs has been on the team? w/o looking, i’d venture to say “shitty”.
listen, i like josh, too. i admire his heart and his all-out style of play, and i love the excitement when he gets his hands on the ball…but if he can be turned into multiple pieces that can be more instrumental in building a winning football team (that is the goal, is it not?), then i’ll help him pack.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 15, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
The Browns record has nothing to do with Josh Cribbs
The old, “They aren’t winning, so he must not be that good” argument is straight shit. Mangini’s “plan” is to build a football team with character people who love the game of football. Who better exemplifies that then Josh Cribbs?
If he could be turned into multiple pieces to help us win, sure, maybe you trade him. What the hell makes you think we will turn him into multiple pieces? We botch nearly every high draft pick we get, so why would we trade the best special teams player in the game, and a great wildcat threat, for the possibility of getting 2 players that MIGHT help us out.
Trading young proven talent for picks that may or may not pan out has never made any sense to me. Do you really think the 2nd and 5th we got for KWII are more valuable then him? We got MoMass with our second rounder, who is decent, Robiskie, who hasn’t even caught a damn ball yet, and Veikune, who never sees the field.
Bottom line, you trade talent for picks, you better be a damn good evaluator of talent, and, as has been proven, the Browns are not very good at that.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
Bottom line, you trade talent for picks, you better be a damn good evaluator of talent, and, as has been proven, the Browns are not very good at that.
It’s been proven that Mangini and Kokonis are poor talent evaluators? How’s that?
Also: a second and a fifth for K2, K2’s mouth, and K2’s bum knee was a massive win for the Browns.
Also: Kick Returners have a short shelf life. That’s why Cribbs jumped at that seven year contract, and why the contract was long on years and short on money. He hasn’t established himself at any other position, and short of that, he’s very likely on the back end of his career. If you’re going to trade him, now would be the time. Get value for him while he still has value.
Bottom line, you trade talent for picks, you better be a damn good evaluator of talent, and, as has been proven, the Browns are not very good at that.
How has that been proven? Mangini and Kokinis have had ONE draft so far with the team, and those picks have played a total of five games. Please tell me how they’ve “proven” to be bad evaluators of talent after so few games.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 16, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you really think the 2nd and 5th we got for KWII are more valuable then him?
absolutely, 100%, and without equivocation. if you can’t see that, you’re fooling yourself.
and i’m not saying that josh isn’t good b/c we aren’t winning…i’m saying 2 things: 1. a special teams ace is NEVER untouchable, and 2. josh may be great, but what have his contributions meant to the organization as far as wins, and what are they likely to mean in the future? the goal is to win, and if you can take your special teams specialist and turn him into “regular” players who will further that goal, it’s an absolute no brainer.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 16, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
So you're telling me Brian Robiskie is more valuable then Kellen Winslow?
No, he is not. And the 5th rounder we have this year, our hit rate on those types of picks is horrible. KWII had 7 more catches and 100 more yards on Sunday then derek anderson had completions and yards, I’d say we could use him instead of Robert “Hands of Stone” Royal.
Abolutely I can say Kellen Winslow is worth more then Brian Robiskie and a 5th rounder.
Excuse me for sounding negative, but, no, I don’t believe Mangini or Kokinis can evaluate talent. The fact that we passed up on potential difference makers to trade down 30 times and draft an average center did not impress me.
Nor did drafting a low upside, high polish receiver, then proceeding to not play him at all the first four weeks, and yep, he still doesn’t have a catch. Robo was supposed to step in right away, and not necessarily have much upside, so we’re stuck with a “polished” low upside wideout who’s not playing now, and probably never will.
The jury is still out on MoMass, but the fact that he’s the only 2nd round pick out of 3 showing any production at all does not inspire confidence.
Trading Cribbs for picks, will not help us at all.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
You can’t compare players without factoring in contracts. I would argue Robiskie and the cheap years left on his contract are FAR more valuable than Winslow and the very expensive years left on his contract.
This. I don’t care right now if K2 is better than MoMass. He is.
But when Tampa gave K2 that contract, the Browns became the winner in that deal. His knees are a HUGE question mark for that long.
I was against the K2 deal until he signed that deal. That is a bad, bad contract that will hurt the Bucs in the long run.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 16, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m going to stop, b/c you sound a lot like that other cat, Rocland…one who cannot be satisfied, and for whom all mangini/kotnkus (sp) moves will be horrible.
go root for buffalo.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 16, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey man, we win, I'll be satisfied
You act like because I question moves my team makes I’m not a fan. When in fact it’s just the opposite. I question because I care so much about this team, and it’s so frustrating to see them lose.
I disagree with you on the BE and KWII trades, also the trading down idea, because it’s left us with 0 playmakers, how exactly does that make me any less of a fan then you, who is satisfied with “building for the future,” as we’ve been doing for 10 years?
I am a Browns fan, like you, and just because I disagree with you does not mean I should go root for buffalo. A line like this is always used as a last resort in an arguement, when you see you can’t sway me, you pull out something dumb, such as this.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
That line was taken from an email Phil Savage famously sent to a Browns fan. We use around here often when someone is whining about the team too much.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 17, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with K2 was that while he was talented, I doubt he will be that productive down the road (as in in 3-4 years). His knee is already messed up, and after playing through another couple of years in pain I don’t see him getting any faster.
Maybe we will be good in the next 1-2 years, but I see the K2 trade as Mangini trading someone with not-the-best attitude and a questionable future for an investment in the team’s future. We already have a promising young WR, and we have another draft pick coming this year. I hated the trade at the time, but I certainly don’t think it was egregious now.
As for the Braylon trade; yeah, he was a talented WR, but are we really that much worse off without him? We probably weren’t going to be in the hunt for the playoffs, and he wasn’t making plays for us.
No one wants to continually build for the future, but I see these moves as an admission that the last time(s) we built, we built the wrong way. Is it better to continuously remodel a dilapidated house or to just knock the sucker over and start over at the foundation? Sure, it sucks, but what other choice do we have?
I love this building metaphor. I can just imagine Mangini with a toolbelt strapped on, walking around a half-completed house before scratching his head and saying “Well, I can see what the last guy was trying to build here, but there’s no way I’m working from that blueprint!”
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 19, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Well I guess that's where we disagree
My thought is that you don’t trade away your best players, you build around them. I can understand the Winslow trade, even though I don’t think we got what he’s worth, because they feel he’s damaged goods.
But trading him and Braylon has left us with very poor receiving options, making our Quarterbacks look even worse. While I can see what you’re saying with your “knock it all down, rebuild from the foundation” metaphor, I don’t really agree with it.
My strategy would be to build around a few pillars, your best players, Joe Thomas, Braylon, KWII, Shaun Rogers, Josh Cribbs, and put a lot of time and effort into scouting, making damn sure you don’t miss on your draft picks.
I didn’t like Savage’s trading away draft picks left and right, but I don’t agree with Mangini’s trading away proven talent for draft picks left and right either.
Use the New England model, trade away depth at positions and over-the-hill players for picks, build around a few players, Harrison, Brady, Light, Bruschi, etc.
JMHO
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
Interesting. Of the pillars you mention, most are still here. Only gone are Winslow, who had attitude issues, knee problems, and a high price tag, and Braylon, who had attitude issues and problems catching balls from our QBs. Seems like a measured approach to me. Cribbs has certainly gotten his time in this year.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 20, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
You're Right
They are focused on building on high-character guys, it seems. Although I always felt like BE and KW would buy in as long as they knew they were your guys and if we were winning, I could be wrong though.
That is why dealing Cribbs would make 0 sense, he’s the perfect Mangini player, highly talented, highly versatile, and high character.
If we don’t deal Cribbs, I can understand what Mangini’s doing, and while I may not agree with it, at least I can see his logic. If he deals Cribbs, I’ll lose all faith in him. Just my opinion.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
If he deals Cribbs, I’ll lose all faith in him.
come on…this is just craziness. if you can trade josh cribbs for (pulling a name out of a hat) anquan boldin, you’d lose all faith in mangini? anytime another team in interested in one of your guys you have the opportunity to improve the squad (to wit: 4 “things” in return for braylon); you have to listen and consider it seriously.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 20, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright
Let me rephrase that. If they trade Cribbs for what his perceived value probably is, then I’ll lose faith in him.
Yeah, if we get an elite WR like Boldin or Fitzgerald, I won’t lose faith in him.That is never going to happen though
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
If they trade Cribbs for what his perceived value probably is, then I’ll lose faith in him.
you’re still not making any sense. if mangini trades cribbs for what his perceived value probably is? what in the world does that even mean? what else is he supposed to trade him for aside from his value?
i’m not advocating for trading him, but you have to listen to offers, and if you get a good one (i’ll leave it to mangini to decide what “good” means), pull the trigger.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 20, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Market Value
Is what I was trying to get at. What other NFL teams would be willing to give up to get him. That will not be a 1st rounder, or an elite offensive threat.
As a result, I don’t feel that trading Cribbs will make us any better in the present or the future.
Obviously, my opinion means nothing, as I have no say in what the Browns do, but dealing Cribbs is a poor move should we choose to make it.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
He is the only player I see give consistent effort every single week
Not true at all. There are many players on the Browns who try hard every single week. Just because they’re not good doesn’t mean they’re not playing hard.
Talent wins football games, not “scrappy” guys who “play with intesity and heart every week”. Of course, Cribbs is a talented football player, but special teams players are only worth so much. I don’t want to trade him, but if you can get a good player and a high draft pick in return then you have to think about it. We’re building for the future to have a winning football team. Isn’t that more important that clinging to a single player on a crappy team?
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 15, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Dealing Cribbs solves nothing
As you say, talent wins football games. Are you going to tell me that consistently getting the ball near midfield to start every drive does not help win? Does being the team’s best offensive threat and by far the best special teams player not qualify as talent?
Say we deal Cribbs for 2 picks, hell, both 2nd rounders (very unlikely.) Our hit rate if we’re luckky would be 50%, and with our ability to evaluate talent, probably lower then that. Anyway, we hit on one of those guys, is he going to be more valuable then Josh Cribbs? No, unless we get extremely lucky. Not a single second round pick we’ve had since coming back has been as valuable as Josh Cribbs.
Don’t trade a sure thing, young proven talent, for the possiblity of later getting talent, it’s not a smart plan.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
I don’t mean to diminish Cribbs, because he is a great Brown, but I severely doubt our average field position after kick returns is anywhere near midfield. Likely in the low 30’s.
Exactly right. That comment is a huge exaggeration.
I love Josh Cribbs (I have his jersey) but kick returners don’t make as big of an impact on the outcome of a game as many other positions. If we can turn Cribbs in to two good players at important positions then it might be worth it.
And, once again, why are you criticizing our ability to evaluate talent when our GM and coach has been in place less than one year? How do you know they’re so bad after such a short amount of time? Also, if you look at the Jets team which Mangini helped to build the past three years then I’d say he’s probably a good evaluator of talent.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 16, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions
If we can turn Cribbs in to two good players at important positions then it might be worth it.
it is definitely worth it
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 16, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Most Kick Returners don't
But Cribbs does. You remember that Steelers game 2 years ago, hell the Bengals game 2 weeks ago, both Cribbs almost single-handedly kept us in the game.
As far as the talent evaluating thing, maybe Kokinis is good at it, but I’m pessimistic I guess, as I have seen nothing to make me think otherwise. Mangini’s picks haven’t been very good though, as Golston was a huge bust, Ferguson is nowhere near as good as his #4 overall would suggest, Mangold is average, I’ll give Revis to him, that was a good pick.
The bottom line on this is we aren’t going to get a first rounder for Josh Cribbs, and I don’t see how trading away the best special teamer in the game is going to make us any better.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
Mangold is regarded as one of the best centers in the game. I don’t know why you’d be pessismistic about Kokinis, other than you wanting something to whine about.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 17, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Idk man
I guess watching us make poor decisions since coming back has worn on me. Seeing us with 0 offensive weapons, besides Joshua Cribbs, is also very discouraging.
Watching that game Sunday made me even realize even more, that this team needs Josh Cribbs. He’s the heart and soul. Without him, we lose that game probably 34-0, as he’s the only one who can keep the offense on the field, move the ball, or provide excitement every time he touches it.
He’s an excellent gunner, the 2nd best Wildcat QB in the game, and by far the best return man in the game, oh, and he’s also the leader of the Cleveland Browns, and a man who plays his heart out no matter the score, game, record, or contract situation.
You don’t trade away your leader and best player, you just don’t.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
good thing cribbs is neither of those.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 19, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you kidding me?
Josh Cribbs is not the leader of the Cleveland Browns? He definitely is.
Granted, Joe Thomas and Shaun Rogers are better, but Josh is the 3rd best player, and most explosive, and really, the only chance we have of scoring right now.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
i mean…he’s just not the leader. rogers is more of a leader, d’qwell is more of a leader, thomas is more of a leader…it just ain’t cribbs.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 20, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I just don't agree with you
Thomas is a very soft spoken guy, Rogers wanted the hell out of here a couple months ago.
Cribbs has said he loves it here, and I feel he does more leading then JT or Rogers.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
leaders don’t bitch about their contract in the media.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 20, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
You really disliked his agent bringing up business in public, didn’t you? I thought it was reasonably handled myself. The subject was brought up to make a point, but that was about it. No holdout or anything too dramatic, and you can’t say Cribbs hasn’t done everything he can since to help this team win.
Anyway, I think Cribbs leads by example, if at all. But I’m fairly indifferent to the whole team leader idea, so YMMV.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 20, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Show me where he bitched about his contract
His agent said he desrved a new one. He’s said he loves being a Brown, and while he’d like a new one, he’s not “bitching about it to the media.”
The man absolutely deserves a new contract, btw.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
exactly. if we think that agents take it upon themselves to express feelings that aren’t consistent with the player, well, we’re deluding ourselves.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 22, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Any yard gained by the special teams that this offense doesn’t have to figure out a way to gain for itself is gold.
Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.
by woodsmeister on Oct 16, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Wrong, any yard the offense can gain, regardless of ST field position contribution is gold.
Offense is more valuable than ST, period.
This offense is so challenged to gain yards that it needs all the help from special teams that it can get, unfortunately.
Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.
by woodsmeister on Oct 16, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Fortunately
I don’t believe those in charge plan on the offense remaining challenged. Obviously we are struggling this year, but if trading Cribbs helps us to improve the offense, make it less challenged than that is a good trade-off.
"Do you want a bunch of duds walking around with their shoulders slumped and having no emotions, no feelings?" Bradley said. "I don’t think the fans want that. I think they want a guy who’s going to get into the game and feel a little bit. I’ve always said, ‘I don’t really play baseball, I feel it.’ "
Right, which means that our offense sucks, not that ST is important.
I think our team is a pretty good example that even top-3 or top-5 special teams can’t overcome a terrible, terrible offense.
If our offense was one of the best in the league, no one would care about our ST sucking in the opposite situation. If getting rid of Cribbs could mean a dramatic upgrade on O, we’d have to do it.
And if the offense keeps being unable to score it won’t matter how good Cribbs is because he can’t single-handedly win us games.
Does trading Josh Cribbs turn our horrible offense into a good one?
No, it does not. It weakens our only strength, and isn’t going to strengthen a huge weakness by much.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
Say we deal Cribbs for 2 picks, hell, both 2nd rounders (very unlikely.) Our hit rate if we’re luckky would be 50%, and with our ability to evaluate talent, probably lower then that.
The Browns would be foolish to pass on that deal. What you’re forgetting is that Cribbs was an UDFA. Kick returners can be found anywhere. Don’t get it twisted, JC is the best ST player in the NFL. He does not help this team on downs 1-3 on a consistent enough basis though. If we can get a RT and ILB for him, it has to be done. Kick returners are more easily replaced than quailty offensive and defensive starters.
If we are offered a great deal, trading Cribbs is an easy call.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 16, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I seriously doubt this rumor has any truth to it other than the other teams in the NFL would love to have Cribbs on their team. What would be the benefit of trading him? We have all the leverage with him considering the length of his contract. The Browns would be upsetting their entire fan base and how much could they really get in a trade for a special teams player. Cribbs is probably the best in the league at what he does, but how much would teams really be willing to give up for him? I just think that most of these rumors are created from wishful thinking on the part of the media and fans from the rest of the league who would like to see one of our few outstanding players that we actually have playing for them.
This front office doesn’t care.
The main reason I don’t give this trade rumor much credit is because the trades the Browns have made, have been CIA-like hush-hush operations.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 16, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Good point. If this were true, we’d probably only know it when we woke up to a “Browns Trade Cribbs” headline.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 16, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Whether there is anything to this rumor, it is good talk-show fodder because Mangini has made a few bold moves, most recently Edwards, and Cribbs is not signed.
The Browns are not making any news on the field, so all the talk is about off-the-field matters.
If the Browns can get a first round pick, I’d trade Cribbs.
Cribbs is signed
that’s the issue.
"Do you want a bunch of duds walking around with their shoulders slumped and having no emotions, no feelings?" Bradley said. "I don’t think the fans want that. I think they want a guy who’s going to get into the game and feel a little bit. I’ve always said, ‘I don’t really play baseball, I feel it.’ "
Joshua Cribbs is an All Purpose Talent. He is popular. He is a competitor. He´s a former QB, that could function in a QB/RB hybrid role. He´s hot, because they haven´t been able to give him a decent contract. He has not been targeted for receptions this year.
His motivation to be a Brown should factor heavily into the equation. Being a stand up guy, he´s in a position to signal general malcontent amongst the players.
He´s a character I would hate to lose, but if he´s chosen to get the ball rolling in terms of player exodus, so be it.
after reading this comment i couldn’t believe who posted it.
by notthatnoise on Oct 16, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Heard this rumor last night in the on the way home from work. Don’t like the idea for anything less than a 2nd rd. pick plus a player or lower pick.
I heard the rumor on 850AM and the host actually had an interesting point about Cribbs and how he would be used with the Dolphins. He thought that they would play him almost exclusively at RB instead of WR. With Ricky Williams rumored to retire at the end of the year they would have a need at that position.
Why don’t we play Cribbs more at RB instead of WR? IMO, RB is one of the easiest positions to learn, much easier than WR as their is no coverages to learn to read. Outside of learning your blitz pickups (which is important of course) it’s all instinct and athletic ability. At 6’1" 215 Lbs he is certianly big enough.
I’m sure many people with more football knowledge have pondered this before but it just seemed like a great idea to me.
I have asked this question to myself. He has great vision and runs through tackles. At the very worst you would think that he would be a great 3rd down back.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 16, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Lot of interesting comments here. So here is a question… If a trade of Cribbs was inevitable for some reason, what is the least you’d take for him were you the Browns’ GM? Players? Picks?
Brownsyup
For comparison I was thinking about Dante Hall. He made quite a stir as a returner. He was with Kansas City for about 7 years after being drafted in the 5th round of the 2000 draft. He had over 10,000 yards as a returner by his 6th year in the NFL.
He was still performing pretty well when traded to the Rams along with a 3rd round pick for the Ram’s 3rd and 5th round picks (which seems like hardly anything for this guy). But the Chief’s GM must have had a crystal ball because soon after the trade Hall hurt his ankle and was never the same afterward. He was released at the end of the 2008 season.
Brownsyup
Cribbs is younger.
Cribbs is a top special teams gunner in football.
Cribbs is stronger.
Cribbs averages more yards per kick return
Cribbs averages more yards per punt return
Cribbs is a better runner from the line of scrimmage.
Cribbs is worth way more than a 5th round pick.
by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 16, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Where did you find these stats on Hall to compare or are you just blowing smoke?
I mean I agree… seems like KC got nothing for Hall at the time of that trade but I was just looking for some real-life comparison of what a return specialist might be worth. Does what you wrote have any basis in fact to back it up?
Brownsyup
The basis in fact is the impact that Cribbs has on our football team, or more specifically, the impact the loss of Cribbs would potentially have on our football team.
Dante Hall was simply not that good at the time of the trade.
Cribbs does more for us (gunning, being a part time WR/RB/QB threat) and his skill set is likely to last longer than Hall’s because Hall’s game was based purely on speed, quickness and agility which I would argue more rapidly over time than Cribbs’ skillset.
I´m not that high on special teams. And I know a lot of people will jump such a comment. But on a professional football team, with a 56 man roster, the injured reserve, the practice squad, and the backburner squad no one perceives, I would assume you can put together a decent special teams unit, without having to invest heavily into specialists.
That´s why I´m emphasizing that he is an all-purpose player, although I think prognosticating him to be a star on defense is a bit exaggerated.
Personally, I think he is a fiery competitor and good to have around. Can he be enabled to be a star at any position other than punt returner/kick returner? Maybe as a flanker, if that position became a greater feature. But truthfully, I think there are freakier athletes to best fill that slot.
I do see potential uses for him as a QB/RB hybrid in situations, in that context lets also aquire Isaiah Stanback who played quarterback for the University of Washington. Seneca Wallace maybe? Are there any other NFL players that transitioned from college quarterback? If we had several of these QB/RB hybrids we could institute a scarier wildcat formation, with several potential passer/runners, otherwise I consider it merely a gimmick. Kind of a tangent, but just a single such player, as represented in Joshua Cribbs, would be merely an average quarterback that can scramble, to have several gives you a hitherto unheard of formation.
All in all, I would choose to retain him. If he must go, I want collateral. We don´t need more draft picks, the other teams in the NFL will never let us have the type of draft day bonanza some people are visualizing.
by mooncamping on Oct 16, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I love the idea of a mutant wildcat, but I don’t see us to as the team to implement it.
Cribbs as a personality is undisputedly a great player to have on the team. Works hard, won’t hold out, looks like he’s ready to make magic any chance he gets and is happy for those chances. But of course, this isn’t a popularity contest, so there has to be more to a trade decision than that….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 16, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Mutant wildcat. I don´t know what to call this package. Nothing creative comes to mind.
What I envisioned however, was three QB/RB hybrids lined up parallel to the offensive line, in a shotgun. The center could snap to either surprisingly, straight back or diagonally. Depending on how the play evolves, the ones who don´t receive the ball can block on running and passing plays.
The real appeal, though, is: Per play, each QB/RB would have a different play-set. The potential confusion is potentiated, until the ball is actually snapped.
“The Tribid?”
having 3 QB/RB type players on the field at the same time, with 2 of the 3 of them blocking?
seriously?
You are reading my signature.
1 or 2 would obviously be in the backfield
and 1 could be a wide out. Not that i’m advocating just saying the other two wouldn’t have to line up as strickly blockers.
"Do you want a bunch of duds walking around with their shoulders slumped and having no emotions, no feelings?" Bradley said. "I don’t think the fans want that. I think they want a guy who’s going to get into the game and feel a little bit. I’ve always said, ‘I don’t really play baseball, I feel it.’ "
I think I know what you´re pointing to.
QB´s are designated 0-19.
RB´s are designated 20-49.
WR´s are designated 10-19 and 80-89.
You´re right they would need an all-purpose number designation. Then they could line up as QB´s, RB´s or WR´s.
Also the formations could vary depending on whether you are running or passing. The point is, they are either running, blocking, passing or receiving.
It actually wouldn’t be that bad, the only real change between this and some wildcat stuff some teams run is the direct snap to anyone of the three. It would be like lining up Cribbs, Ronnie Brown, and Pat White in Shotgun as a QB and two RBs (take your pick as to which one is the QB).
Then you could have a read option involving any two of the three, and the third could either be the third part of the triple option, or block for either player, or go out into the flat for a pass.
You also might be able run a sweep or a zone-blocked run by snapping it to one of the players on the end and sending the other two out to block.
This might be the first good mooncamping idea. Problem is, we don’t have anything close to the personnel to do this effectively.
I love this idea, but as you said, not from us. After all, a plain vanilla offense is sadly a bit of a stretch for us right now….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 19, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
The word hybrid came up in connection with the DE/LB hybrid, such as James Harrison is one. These guys aren´t dominant on the line, and the lack of speed to the outside and into the flats is unacceptable. It´s just a type of player that can be rendered absolutely ineffective with the right play calling. I also didn´t like the buildup in trying to talk this type up, so they could get drafted into the NFL, they made it seem as if it´s the only way to go.
So what I´m saying is, in that context, hybrid describes a physical specimen more than an ability to alternate between two positions.
If hybrid means versatility, not a definate body type, it could be useful.
I like how you tried to think it through. I don´t see any problem, however, with having three quarterbacks in the backfield. It´s not forbidden, I think.
Hybrid has always meant versatility and not a definite body type—at least when I’ve used it. I have always been against having a “definite body type” for a given position.
Hybrid players need to have BOTH of the skill sets of the positions that they are “hybrids” of. The kind of player you are talking about needs to be able to run like a RB and throw like a QB, for example. If they have NEITHER of the skill sets (if they run like a QB and throw like a RB) they are just not a good player.
DeMarcus Ware on the Cowboys is the kind of hybrid DE/OLB you need to look at to see what we need for our defense. He can rush the passer better than just about anyone in the NFL, he can cover RBs in the passing game, he can tackle RBs in the running game, and he can defeat blockers in the running game. He’s very good.
Massoli from Oregon might be okay running the wildcat
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 16, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
A second rounder and either a young player or late pick.
If the Colts offered Bullitt and a second rounder I would help Josh pack myself.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 16, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Least I’d take as a the Browns GM:
Top 10 pick overall, or a late first rounder and 2 second rounders. Or a young pro-bowl DB.
The Browns won’t get any of that for Cribbs.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 17, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions
If Josh all of a sudden decides he's got to get out of here
And forces our hand, I accept nothing less then a 1st, preferably + a lower pick.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
oh…i see. so you’d lose all faith in mangini if he trades cribbs…unless he trades him for something good. then it’s ok. please…
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 20, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The Cribbs camp complained about money to the media.
Even though he’s handling the contract situation better than most players with his type of request, the fans know about it.
I get the feeling the Mangini organization doesn’t like the fact that a player blabbed about money and I could see Cribbs being moved out because of it.
Boy, do you really think a lot of fans are mad at Cribbs for asking for the money? After the way he’s played, I’ve heard more comments along the lines of “Give that guy the cash!” than anything else.
As for Mangini, who knows what he thinks of this. I’d guess that he’d move Cribbs for the right deal regardless, but past that, who knows.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 16, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s very easy to spend somebody else’s cash. It’s extremely hard to value a guy like Cribbs, who is really only good at an undervalued portion of the game. If you’re going to sign a multiyear contract, you have to be willing to accept the fact that sometimes you’ve traded off earning potential for security. Whining about not being paid enough on a multiyear contract, frankly, is not acceptable.
Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.
by woodsmeister on Oct 16, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem isn’t spending the money, its setting the precedent of renegotiating a player’s contract (to give him a huge raise) when that same player just renegotiated his contract a few years ago.
Cribbs has virtually no leverage here. He could sit out, but we’re already terrible. He is under a multi-year contract, so we really don’t have to do anything. He is close to powerless.
Literally by letting his agent go to the media, he decreases his chances of getting a deal done. If he would just shut his mouth and play his behind off, I bet Mangini would want to reward that behavior. He can’t positively reinforce the wrong behavior or it will keep happening.
Does he deserve the money? Yes. Not Devin Hester money, but a raise. But he can’t go about it this way or he won’t get it.
I actually don’t even think he is that much underpaid at his current salary, and I assume the Browns see the same thing. I would be okay with a small increase, but nothing more than 1 million per season. Give him a nice little bonus to keep him happy.
Maybe under 1.5 million/season with a team-friendly structure, some of those “LTBE” bonuses that are not going to be earned and will get the team some cap room.
Also, keep expanding his role on offense, which should be something like a RB who sometimes runs the wildcat.
Devin Hester money is crazy. And Hester is decent at WR (at least at getting me fantasy points as a WR).
I don’t think the fans are mad at Cribbs asking for more money.
If I were Mangini I would consider Cribbs’ actions the airing of laundry, turning the fans against the franchise, and trying to cause an unhealthy precedent.
Cleveland.com says Cribbs wants a new contract or a trade.
I’m guessing he’ll get the latter.
Cribbs himself hasn't asked for a trade
his agent has. Might be a minor detail, but Cribbs himself said he is focused on playing, and has shown that this year by playing hard.
Of course he has already asked for more money, so he really doesn’t have to comment on wanting a new contract.
"Do you want a bunch of duds walking around with their shoulders slumped and having no emotions, no feelings?" Bradley said. "I don’t think the fans want that. I think they want a guy who’s going to get into the game and feel a little bit. I’ve always said, ‘I don’t really play baseball, I feel it.’ "
I think Mangini
is thinking that he knows Cribbs won’t go back to the media himself and complain this year, and that any noise would be coming from his agent, and frankly I think Mangini could give, well could care less about the agent. However, if someone offers Mangini, I guess i should be saying Kokinis (sp?) something the organization likes, I think they will make a trade.
"Do you want a bunch of duds walking around with their shoulders slumped and having no emotions, no feelings?" Bradley said. "I don’t think the fans want that. I think they want a guy who’s going to get into the game and feel a little bit. I’ve always said, ‘I don’t really play baseball, I feel it.’ "
I have four factors regarding trading quality players.
1. Does he have potential for the new franchise?
2. Is he motivated to be here?
3. Do we want him?
4. Do we have to pay to get rid of him?
Funny, the most important thing is the absent:
- What are we getting in return.
by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 16, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Indeed. Also, 3 mostly seems to covered in the others.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 16, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems like they have similar strengths, with Cribbs being bigger. Cribbs’ experience and return abilities make him even more appealing. My understanding is that Miami drafted White mostly to use in Wildcat situations.
But Cribbs is rarely used like that — his value is mostly on special teams. From what I know, White plays no special teams so I wouldn’t consider them comparable at all.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 16, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
My understanding is that Miami drafted White mostly to use in Wildcat situations.
Actually no, they use Pat White as the QB when they run a spread option formation, which is very different from the wildcat. Pat White is also a much better passer than Cribbs.
I agree that Cribbs is more valuable though.
Cribbs is Carnation Instant Field Position.
The Browns aren’t interested in trading Cribbs, but are taking calls.What does this mean? Does it mean Browns’ secretaries are willing to answer the phones? Talk about 2 opposing concepts in the same sentence.
“Please stay on the line so Mr. Kokinis can tell you that you wasted cell phone minutes.”
It means they’re not looking to trade him but if a team overwhelms them with an offer then they’ll listen. That’s a pretty common statement by a team about a player.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 16, 2009 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
But that condition applies to almost any member of the team. Why bother to say it about any particular member?
Probably because a reporter asked about Cribbs specifically. It’s not like the Browns announced a press conference to say it; they just answered a question. What were they supposed to say?
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 16, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
100% what I was going to say.
Joe Thomas and DQ are the only two players we won’t “take calls” about.
Is that just your opinion or has Mangini said that?
Not trying to be sarcastic or a jackass, just curious as to if he said that in a press conference about D’Qwell and JT.
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
cribbs + quinn + anderson + pool + first and sec round for————-Matt Ryan……one can dream cant he?
GO BROWNS!!!
by charliefryfanhaha on Oct 17, 2009 9:46 PM EDT reply actions
i was having fun…but i would accept the trade if it was possible..i think Matty will be the next big QB down the road and watching him play is disturbing when compared to the recent QBs we’ve had lately
GO BROWNS!!!
by charliefryfanhaha on Oct 19, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
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