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What About The Defense

With all the talk about the Offense, we are forgetting about the Defense.  The Cleveland Browns had a dynamic offense in the past.  The way the NFL is today, the offense gets all the "hype".  When was the last time anyone on defense was named MVP?  It was 1986, and that man was Lawrence Taylor.  that being said, the defense is not doing great for the Browns.  They are ranked 32 in overall defense and mostly in the bottom on every category.  I realize that the secondary is bad, but the front 3 aren't doing good either.  The only good point is the linebackers and they are above average at best.  The best statistic is sacks.  They are ranked 22, but that is still nothing to be too proud of.  To be honest, shouldn't Rob Ryan be blamed for this?  We blame the offense on Daboll and Eric Mangini, so why are we not talking about Ryan?

 

Ryan is quite possibly someone who you could run into at the Flats and be one of the guys.  He is a blue color coach, and that gives him a slide for the fans.  I think it also gives him a slide from the players.  he is a good coach and i think he can do better with better players.  I also think that the team can do better, but we need a good mixture of young players and veterans, not a lot of rookies.  Go Browns, i haven't given up on this season yet.  I still think you can win each Sunday. “On any given Sunday you're going to win or you're going to lose. The point is, can you win or lose like a man?” - Al Pacino, Any Given Sunday.


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yes there is some blame to be spread around the defense, but I’m one of the people who believes a lot of the defenses problems are solved with a good offense.

by notthatnoise on Oct 27, 2009 12:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i actually put some of the defensive struggles on daboll, too.

by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 30, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreeing with ntn …

Our defense has actually looked average in most of the games, at least in the first half.

However, with the continued failure of the offense [3 and out/turnovers], the defense gets overworked and ends up giving up big chunks in the second half, which in essence, drives our defensive numbers to the bottom.

I do agree we still need help on the defensive side, but even a few drives to midfield by our offense would be most helpful.

by talonk on Oct 27, 2009 12:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

you cant win games when your offense only puts up 3 pts no matter how good your defenses is.

by The Brown Note on Oct 27, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope we don’t make a stupid mistake and drop Ryan as our DC because we think he’s the problem. I was pumped to have a Ryan as a DC and he is definetly not the problem. He brings shove it down your throat defense to the Browns. I hope we don’t can him.

On the other hand, Daboll is actually a serious problem regarding the offense.

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 27, 2009 2:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If we are going to make moves, I would want to see Ryan being promoted instead of fired.

by rufio on Oct 27, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think he will go. he is probably the most knowledgable one on the staff. not saying the others don’t know anything, just that he knows more.

by holmes213 on Oct 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Can’t argue with numbers. Nice.

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 27, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking along the same line that is that the Defense was spending too much time on the filed resulting in poor play. But I took a look at when the majority of points are scored by the other team it broke down like this.

First Quarter 27 pts
Second Quarter 60 pts
Third Quarter 37 pts
Forth Quarter 47 pts
Overtime 3pts

This brake down still could suggest that the defense is spending too much time on the filed. It also could point to another problem because I don’t expect our defense to be tired in the second quarter (resulting in the most points given up). I’m thinking more that the first quarter the other team is feeling our defense out. Then in the second quarter they gash our defense for big points. And the last two quarter they hold on to the ball racking up the time difference. I tried to find a brake down of time of position by quarters but was unable to.

Something was said somewhere that the Green Bay coach noticed that we blitzed our CB on first and second down a lot during the Pittsburgh game. They game planed for that when we blitzed our CB they took advantage and tossed (I think it was) their first TD. Who should be blamed for this?

by The Brown Note on Oct 27, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Players and coaches both share the blame for defensive breakdowns.

I know Rob Ryan could have gone away from the CB blitz. The fact that you used a CB blitz in the last game, or the fact that the opposing OC knows what you like to do can’t dictate what plays you can or can’t call. If you let them completely take one play or one concept away from you, they win.

Every coach has tendencies, and other coaches will pick up on them. Players still have to disguise what they will do and execute the plays. Coaches need to keep opposing teams off balance so that they don’t know exactly what is coming or exactly when it is coming.

by rufio on Oct 27, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good analysis. I think you make a good point about the second quarter. Then once the opposing team gets a lead they go conservative and run out the clock.

Brownsyup

by Brownsyup on Oct 28, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even worse was Aaron Rodgers’ comment that the Green Bay scout team actually ran the Browns’ defense better than the Browns themselves. I doubt that he actually considered it a dig – just a simple statement of fact. Either way, it’s a really bad sign.

by drjeo on Oct 28, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Recd.

The problem I have with this is that a couple of those teams who posses the ball for a lesser amount of time also limit what the opposing offense is able to do.

If NE is blowing you out by 30 points, first, your offense is going to be demoralized and it probably won’t be giving their best efforts across the board, even if its a subconscious thing.

Also, if NE is up by 30, the opposing team is more likely to pass the ball, run draws and screens, etc. The defense can concede a few 4 yard runs because they don’t mean as much, and they can focus on taking away the pass.

So even if NE only possesses the ball for 5 minutes/half, they can help their D out a lot by simply scoring points.

by rufio on Oct 27, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t mean this to sound snarky or anything, but I’m just wondering if you ever played football. From my own personal experience 6.5 minutes is a ton.

by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did play some and 6 minutes is a lot, especially for the big dogs, but the analysis is pointing towards the maximum average difference and the truth is probably somewhat less than that. That analysis would take a lot more effort. I still think there is a lot more to the defensive struggles than bad offense in this case. I wish it were just the offense.

Brownsyup

by Brownsyup on Oct 28, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i certainly wouldn’t argue the defense is where it needs to be, my position is only that they would be at least average if the offense could stay on the field a little longer.

by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look at the statistics a different way: the 6.5 minutes doesn’t seem like all that much, but if you run the numbers out, it turns out differently. Look at N.E.‘s time of possession. If my math is right, the Brown’s defense is on the field more than 19% more time than New England’s. That’s a lot.

by drjeo on Oct 28, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

6.5 minutes is two hours for an OL. I should know, I played god damn tackle.

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

as someone who played both OG and DE let me tell you its the defensive snaps that took the most enery

by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My backup played starting DE, so I was saved during D snaps. I was Right Tackle with a left handed QB too. Thank God for defense.

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hate you. But in a good way. Haha.

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 29, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I get that a lot.

by drjeo on Oct 29, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

great info. i’d certainly agree it points to larger issues.

by Dawg Nuts on Oct 28, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our cornerbacks are midgets.
Our outside linebackers are sloths because they don´t fit the overhyped DE/OLB hybrid ideal (Bernard, Hall, Wimbley, Bowens, Brown)
Our best tacklers are heatseekers (Jackson and Elam) and quite possibly out of position for overcompensating.
We have carnage incarnated in Shaun Rogers, but that´s not a balanced d-line.
We´re concentrated on making sacks, when we should concentrate on holding and defending the line of scrimmage.
We have three linebackers more suited as 4-3 middle linebackers in Jackson, Vaikune and Trusnik.
We allow opposing offenses to move us around like pawns, everytime they expose a weakness. When we defend the pass they run it, when we defend the run they lob it across.
Rex Ryan has assembled players for the 4-3, the 3-4, the 46 and whatnot. Do we have the personnel for our standard 3-4, to include viable backups at each position? No.
So we have smash-mouth players, big deal, there are better thugs in the stands. Smash-mouth gets you nothing if you´re not fast enough to get to the ball.

by mooncamping on Oct 28, 2009 8:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Corrections: Rob Ryan mate. And we also don’t have any DE/OLB named Brown or Bernard. Easy on the Bs.

Don’t agree with everything you say apart from the Rogers comment. And I guess we aren’t fast enough to the ball – that’s true in a way.

by skipkirk on Oct 28, 2009 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will argue the fact about being worried about the sacks. If we don’t get to the QB, then will have all day to throw the ball. No secondary can cover any reciever in this league when the QB as 10 secs to get a pass off.( well maybe Braylon because you don’t really have to cover him, he’ll drop it anyway) I will defend Wimbley. I think this guy can play any OLB\DE in any defense.

by The naome40 on Oct 28, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The best way to pressure the quarterback is to have all areas and players covered, to not let the offense shift you around. You must resist the tidal dynamics that offenses try to create between short yardage threat and the so called dreaded long ball.
In simple terms, if you´re where you are supposed to be it´s where they can´t be.
Besides, we have three defensive linemen. The 3-4 is built to pressure the line, not the quarterback. These guys don´t line up outside, they´re inside battling all the time, trying to create havoc and imbalance the blocking, it´s about unpredictability. A defense that rushes all the time is predictable. Hunker down and defend the line of scrimmage. Sacks happen.
I repeat, the best way to pressure the quarterback is to take away his options.

by mooncamping on Oct 28, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wait a minute, are you saying we blitz too much? that was the biggest reason why we were frustrated by our D under romeo and why we were all so happy when mangini got rob ryan, is because we wanted a more aggressive D that would rush the passer more often. which do you want?

by Dawg Nuts on Oct 28, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You repeat nonsense, and everything you’ve said here is worthless garbage. You’ve never even seen a football game, I’m sure.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Oct 29, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You personally really need that ignore script for moon here, don’t you?

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 29, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

looks like i posted that 11 pm, so odds are I was a bit inebriated…

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Nov 1, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough. Just seeming a bit like a man on a mission here is all. Wouldn’t want you to get ulcers or anything!

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Nov 1, 2009 9:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No need to worry about an ulcer. Early in his tenure I made a mock post imitating his style:

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2009/7/16/951319/cliff-notes-browns-transactions#18313523

But enough is enough. After 100 posts advocating Nick freaking Sorenson at cornerback, it’s time to move on.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Nov 1, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That was an entertaining post. I still find moon pretty amusing though in a weird sort of way. Better him than any of the hundreds of “CLEVLAND SUX!!! FIRE MANG1NA!!!” posters.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Nov 1, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I repeat, the best way to pressure the quarterback is to take away his options.

Agree.

by golanbatrac on Oct 29, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How’d that work for Mel Tucker?

by rufio on Oct 30, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s not saying that you play the prevent for four quarters. You don’t need to play 10 yards off of the receivers if you have quality DB’s.

by golanbatrac on Oct 30, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

IMO, pass rush is always better than great cover corners.

You could have Nnamdi and Champ on the outside, but if a QB has all day, he is going to make a play.

On the other hand, the Giants won a Super Bowl with Aaron Ross, Corey Webster, RW McQuarters, Kevin Dockery, Sam Madison, and Gregory Pope as ther CB’s.

Any decent CB in the NFL should be able to cover a WR for 2 seconds. Rushing the passer is always the best defense.

by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 30, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s not in your opinion, an elite pass rusher is flat out more valuable than an elite cover man because the way the rules are written, period.

by rufio on Oct 30, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, I was in a really bad mood when I wrote that. It is still a matter of opinion, but the vast majority of GMs, scouts, etc. will agree with me on that point.

by rufio on Oct 30, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s cool. Have a cookie.

by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 30, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ross and Webster are pretty good (certainly helped by the pass rush though)

by Roger Dorn on Oct 31, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your ideas here fascinate me. To have your front line worry about controlling the line and not getting into the backfield is outstanding. Thats why DL practice bull rushes, swim moves, and rips. To get to the QB. On run plays, yes they need to control their gaps. The ultimate prize for the big guys, besides a touchdown and a pick, is a sack!!

by The naome40 on Oct 29, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please look up “cornerback” somewhere online and finally realize what the position entails. Or just shut up about it.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Oct 29, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you need to stop getting so worked up about mooncamping’s posts. try looking at them as a curiosity, or something just there to entertain you.

by notthatnoise on Oct 29, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have to agree. I love mooncamping like a brother myself, and consider him the Nikola Tesla of DBN, or maybe the Howard Hughes. If his gestalt really disturbs you, ignore him. (Greasemonkey beckons!)

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh, as said above, I was probably a little tipsy. I’ve been “playing” with moon since he got here.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Nov 1, 2009 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

for some reason i find DBN to be an enjoyable place to visit while intoxicated…

by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 1, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The way things have been going, I understand why.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Nov 1, 2009 9:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i know i have not been part of this for too long, but it seems that your only insulting people, kor a person, and not trying to bring something refreshing to the conversation

by holmes213 on Oct 29, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I agree that the defense deserves some of the blame (They had, what? one stop against the Packers?), I don’t agree with your diagnosis. The LBs are totally the weakest unit on D. The line and secondary need one or two more pieces, but I think the LBs need serious overhaul. I’ve actually been pleased with Barton, but he isn’t an impact player at all. A dynamic ILB is still the #1 need for this team, in my opinion.

A dynamic safety, an upgrade at DE and CB2 would be nice too. As would some depth at OLB. But I think the defense is on the right track. Rob Ryan shouldn’t be praised for his efforts, but I don’t think he is on any sort of hot seat.

Daboll should be fired before the season is over.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 28, 2009 10:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The positions you want upgraded, we could get tomorrow. I won´t name them though, because when mooncamping says it, it´s less likely.

by mooncamping on Oct 28, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. When Mooncamping says it, it’s stupid.

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 29, 2009 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, our LBs suck. they sucked last year, and they continue to suck.

by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 30, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Daboll is the worst OC that we have ever had. With the talent that we have, I know some don’t think we have it but we do, he should be more creative.

by The naome40 on Oct 28, 2009 10:33 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i hope that was hyperbole, you can’t possibly think this is THE WORST offensive coordinator we’ve ever had

by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It actually is possible, especially if just limited to the new Browns.

by rufio on Oct 29, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i gotta go with mo carthon…but daboll’s not out of the running…

by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 30, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not the worst but he is pretty predictable.

by The naome40 on Oct 28, 2009 2:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, OK, but that’s a lot different than being the worst. Predictability is mainly a problem when the offense is unable to execute, and consistently gets beat by the defense. Some teams are predictable, but it’s OK because they’re going to move the ball through execution more than by surprise. The Browns have to depend on deception and surprise because they’re not good enough to execute otherwise.

by drjeo on Oct 28, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Colts are the most predictable team in the league. I don’t think anybody expects a wildcat play from them…

Just saying…

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Teams would be able to stop them if they were predictable. Even if you know they are going to pass and pass alot, they are unpredictable within that; you can’t just take one route or one play or one target away from Peyton and expect to win.

Hell, they often go to the line of scrimmage with several plays called, so they don’t even always know what they are going to do next.

by rufio on Oct 29, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I watched the Cardinals – Giants game a few days ago and I noticed it before Collinsworth (there’s my 15 minutes of being smarter than a commentator) but everytime Eli said Omaha, the next snap count was the hit count. THAT’S predictable. He has to learn to mix that up a little.

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 29, 2009 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many times did it work? It constantly gets defenses to show too early, and to jump offsides, and they’ve been doing it for at least 2 seasons.

That’s also not how the “Omaha” funtions. It is an indicator that the snap count is “live”. He can use a hard count 1000 times before he says Omaha, but until then, linemen don’t even have to count. After he says Omaha, then it is “on two” or “on three” or whatever is called.

So it could be “Omaha, HUT!” or “Omaha, hut, hut, HUT!”.

Furthermore, if they are doing it correctly, Eli won’t use the “Omaha” call every time. That way once the defense catches on, they can go on a quick count WITHOUT the Omaha call, and hopefully catch a safety out of position, or get a really good jump on run blocks, etc. Then the D is really guessing.

It is in fact much less predictable, and becomes another wrinkle that the D has to worry about. We should be using it ourselves.

by rufio on Oct 30, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is great. I’ve never known this. Repped.

by skipkirk on Oct 30, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well everytime I was conscious of it, because it sounded like Eli had a mic, Omaha was used every play and the call after Omaha was always the hit count. I understand how it worked but because Eli didn’t mix it up it became predictable.

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 30, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So Let Me Get This

What you are saying is that we suck on both sides of the ball? Thanks for the enlightenment.

by realmccoy on Oct 29, 2009 7:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What is special teams considered? Above the ball? If so, we look good one dimensional. We should have the special teams unit out regardless of what position of the football we’re on. We’ll re – invent the game! We’ll call it SPECIAL CAT!

by SpecialBrownie on Oct 29, 2009 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Coming into the season, who else was excited about the defense? I did not get into the offense because it was structured the same way as last year. Nothing was new. i thought our defense was the most exciting aspect of the team, well besides special teams. I believe that the defense can still get it done, just need to be able to get a rest with the offense, but that will not happen because the browns can’t move the ball. At this point I don’t care who is at QB, i am not going to get into that debate on a defensive post, but if DA gives us the “best chance to move the ball” then Quinn is even worse. we can expect one extended drive per game. the defense will get no rest. As far as the points scored in the second quarter, the defense is tired from the first. then they get a break at half time, get tired in the 3rd. by the time the forth quarter rolls around the opposing team is just running out the clock.

by holmes213 on Oct 29, 2009 10:56 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m hoping somebody can answer this question for me. In a 3-4, how far apart should the down linemen be? Are they picking their spots based on what they see from the offense or do they try and make the offense adjust to them?

I’ll admit I’m really ignorant on this, but it just seems to me that often we end up with a knot of guys in the middle and no place for the LBs to get through. So, the play goes to the outside where we have nobody setting the edge. Maybe it’s just my frustration that is skewing my perception, but it seems like that happens a lot.

by JustBob on Nov 6, 2009 5:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

There could be a number of issues to this.

1. You’re seeing pinch slants. The DL are told to pinch inward to stop the inside rush, too bad that the O called an outside rush.

2. The opposing OL is just good at shoving defenders into the middle.

3. Usually in a base 3 – 4, DL take specific gaps. NT is at 0 or above the center, and both DE take B gap or the space between OT and OG. MLBs have A gap and OLBs have C gap.

Help?

by SpecialBrownie on Nov 6, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d agree. I’d also add that in the 3-4 defense (at least pulling from my personal experience), what gaps are filled by which people depends a lot on the reads that the linebackers make. As a nose tackle in the 3-4, I had to know which gap I was supposed to fill, but I couldn’t see anything in the backfield or really anything but right in front of me since you’re in a down position. So the LBs who can see all of that stuff might make a read on the defense and could tell me to switch and fill the other gap. So a lot of what it came down to in our D was having smart linebackers that could read and make switches.

Also, from my experience as a running back, the runner is always looking for a hole or a way to get more yardage. If a running play is supposed to go between the tackles and there’s no hole between said tackles (knot of guys in the middle), we take the play outside. If you can sell the inside run and get the linebackers to bite, they get blocked and can’t get to the outside edge to take the runner down.

So in short, I think the reason the middle is a blob and the outside is open is that we have some inexperienced linebackers.

But to answer your first question, how far apart the linemen are is dependent on what the specific scheme calls for. So most of the time I’d line up on center (in the 0 position) and fill the A gap (between the center and guard either on the right or left side, depending on whether the linebackers read strong right or strong left). Or sometimes I’d have to line up over the A gap and fill the A gap. It really just depends on what the scheme is as to where you line up.

by shep615 on Nov 7, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the explanation guys. I’m sure someone (Rufio) covered some of those points in the past and I just forgot. Hard to keep what is supposed to happen in mind when it seems to rarely transpire on the field. Camera angles don’t always help either.

by JustBob on Nov 7, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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