WHY MANGINI IS NOT SUCCESSFUL IN CLEVELAND
Are you as puzzled as I am? 2007 = 10-6. 2008 = 4-12 (5 games lost by less than a TD, 1 game lost from Edwards not catching the ball). 2009 = New Regime = TERROR!!!! What is wrong with this team? Why is Mangini getting worse results than RAC? Do you buy in to a roster overhaul? I don’t, and here is why:
R. Smith, S Rogers, healthy C. Williams, CJ Mosley, K. Coleman, upgrade Barton over A. Davis, upgrade D. Bowens over nobody significant; upgrade A Elam over S Jones. Good young corners with better depth. Mike Adams is healthy and adding J. Trusnick round out a more talented overall defense. On offense, you bring in Furrey, get both your QB’s back, add depth with Ratliff, have Womack, Fraley, and Hadnot at RG, upgrade Mack over an aging Fraley, St. Clair comes in projected better than Schaeffer, a healthy RB situation, some solid WR additions, and only really lacking at TE.
The talent is there. This is better than the 4-12 Browns of 2008. So, I will ask again, what is wrong? Is Mangini a bad coach? One would not think that, considering the work he did in New England that translated over to the Jets. Is DaBoll a bad OC? Well, this is debatable, yet we haven’t seen any execution on the field to really be capable of determining that to be the factual case. Is Rob Ryan a bad DC? I don’t think so. He translated the term Defense into the Oakland Raiders, making them a top tier Defense in his 4 year tenure as the DC of Oakland. So, what is it that is happening in Berea that makes this a true second rate team?
Let us look at what is going onto the field. On the offensive line, from left to right:
Joe Thomas, Eric Steinbach, Alex Mack, Rex Hadnot, John St. Clair.
From LT to C, you have zone blockers. They possess great technique, good speed and agility for their positions, and are extremely smart. At RG and RT, you have power blockers, a lot of penalties on that side of the ball, no real technique, just decent footwork, good leverage, and good strength. So to sum it up, you have two separate styles of blockers manning your offensive line.
At Running Back, you have a washed up power runner and two finesse runners who use their speed and shiftiness to succeed. Lewis is just not the RB that he used to be. He does not hit the hole hard like he did in 2007 and previously with the Rats. His days as a quality NFL Running back are over. Chris Jennings and Jerome Harrison can be successful in this league. But neither fit a power running scheme.
Wide Receivers are currently too youthful. Mo Mass is not a #1 caliber in the NFL. Robiskie is not being used properly. Furrey is not being used enough. Chansi Stuckey has been absent since he arrived. For this group in the current scheme proposition, signing Matt Jones would be the best course of action. Similar to his first two starts, with a #1 WR on the field, Mo Mass can be very effective in 1 on 1 coverage and can stretch the field for Jones, a big speedy target who gets results.
Now to everyone’s favorite debate. The Quarterbacks have been anemic to put it nicely. Yet, there is a huge problem that both are trying to overcome. Neither is put in a position where their strengths are being showcased. Quinn is a West Coast Offense Quarterback. Derek Anderson will succeed only in a true Vertical Passing offensive scheme. During this season, Anderson has been asked to play a ball control game, where he is given short to intermediate routes to work with. Quinn was asked to handle that as well, but mixed with a touch of Vertical Passing. Neither qualifies for that system and has shown that throughout the 09’ season.
So, you may ask, “we have identified the problem, how do we fix it?” This is the most amazing part of the article. Someone who has done nothing more than play High School Football and watch years of the NFL has the answer to the Browns success in an internet article!
It is simple and I will outline it for you now:
OFFENSE
Zone Blocking Scheme / West Coast Offense:
LT – Thomas, LG – E Steinbach, C – A Mack, RG – H Fraley, RT – J Runyan
DJ Hackett QB – Quinn MM
Furrey
RB – Harrison/Jennings
DEFENSE
3-4 Defense
DE – R. Smith, NT – Shaun Rogers, DE – K. Coleman (run)/C. Williams (pass)
T. Laboy J. Trusnick D. Bowens K. Wimbley
E. Wright M. Adams
SS – A. Elam FS – B. Pool
To completely identify the problem for everyone, Coach Mangini has failed in several categories. A) He has not taken the opportunity to scour the FA block and capitalize on the available players that can succeed within the scheme B) He has failed to put players in a position to succeed C) He has failed to scheme around the strengths of the players on the roster D) He has failed to recognize that the style of offense that he would like to run does not fit the make up of the current players at his disposal. The current roster is filled with good Zone Blockers athletic enough to pull and finesse block, as well as reach the second level springing blocks for the faster and shifty backs like Jennings and Harrison. Quinn is a good short to intermediate passer who can flourish in a West Coast Offense. DJ Hackett could be an asset to a WCO and would take pressure off the rookies that are trying to produce more than they can. Runyan is a no brainer for a WCO/Zone blocking scheme. No matter the scheme, Fraley is an upgrade over any RG we have and is an asset on the field to the development of Alex Mack.
On the defensive side of the ball, the inside linebackers MUST recognize the delayed underneath routes and RB Slants that teams are killing them with. Bringing in an athletic LaBoy allows the coach to move some players around to better play within the scheme, get more pressure, stop the run, and become better in passing situations.
In case you wanted to know, coach Mangini’s failure to recognize what he has in his current pool of players and using them to the best of THEIR abilities is what has gotten our Browns off to a 1-7 start! The definition of a great coach is one that can recognize the issue and adjust to correct it. This is not happening in Cleveland with Mangini and his staff. By no means am I stating that the above will make the Browns 8-0 for a 9-7 finish. But I am of the opinion that by scheming to the strengths of the current players and adding some experienced veteran talent to that specific scheme would make the team more competitive and the results would be much easier to swallow! The quicker that anyone within this organization recognizes that we are not the Ravens, Steelers, or the Patriots, the quicker we can get on track to making this franchise a winning one, one that the City of Cleveland can once again be proud of!
0 recs |
40 comments
Comments
Welcome fellow Browns fan. Just a note for future reference: All caps and bold text don’t help you get your point across. Now then, on to the post…
This is better than the 4-12 Browns of 2008.
I disagree.
We also have seen absolutely no evidence that Quinn would make a for a successful West Coast offense quarterback in the NFL. I actually think we’ve seen quite the opposite from his very little starts. Nor do I think our current WR core could handle the pass heavy style of a WC offense.
I think it’s less about “Why isn’t Mangini successful?” but rather “Why are the Browns not successful?” Personally, I think the buck stops with the owner. Simply put, as many here have before, Randy Lerner has no eye for talent whatsoever.
by Simmsinns on Nov 14, 2009 12:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
the current WR core can’t catch balls that hit their hands regardless of the offensive play calling.
And I agree that the Browns as an organization are to blame for most of this mess.
by L Train on Nov 14, 2009 2:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, he is currently the one who hires them. (And thus far, they have not been very good ones.) He has no eye for managing / coaching talent. I should have made that more clear, my mistake.
by Simmsinns on Nov 14, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok that makes more sense, but to be fair at the time of those hirings everyone around the nfl thought they were the right people for the job.
by notthatnoise on Nov 14, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t call Elam an upgrade over Jones
by North Coast Flea on Nov 14, 2009 4:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I also, say Sean Jones is better then Elam
"There's nothing that cleanses the soul like getting the hell kicked out of you." Woody Hayes.
by rose_11 on Nov 14, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They seem comparable to me with Elam being able to stay on the field better (fewer injuries.) Jones is a backup in Philly and is only recently playing due to an injury.
by Roger Dorn on Nov 15, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Elam plays smarter as well. Jones was constantly out of position.
by golanbatrac on Nov 15, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll disagree as well. I think to do well in this division you need a cold weather team. Strong running game inside and out, tough hard nosed defense and a QB with a big arm. It looks like Eric ‘s plan to me…….just not the talent to pull it off. You also need players that don’t fold under pressure……been missing since the ‘return’ of the NFL to Cleveland.
Also you make no mention of Cribbs in the offense. He is the Browns best threat, he has to be included somewhere.
Let me suggest……his best plays come from KO’s and punt returns where he is facing the defense, has 2-3 seconds to read what moving pieces are doing and react. Rather than a wild cat maybe you consider ‘I’ back/tailback?, so he is 3/4 yards behind the line when he gets the ball with blockers out in front and let him react. This seems to be the best way of replicating his strenght.
This is a novelty offense like the wild cat and not a basic offense, but it is viable now with the bodies available..
by overthere on Nov 14, 2009 7:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You guys are missing the point. This is not a long term solution. It is what is the roster is CURRENTLY made up of. Mangini may have a masterful plan for the long term…. But with the CURRENT make of this roster, we do not have a power running game. No power runner, not so good power blockers, not a good enough defense to play the ball control game. We have 2 young, fast, and healthy RB’s who fit a WCO. The WCO consists of accuracy, getting rid of the ball quick, and running more short to intermediate passing plays. Also, the system is very simplified. This is something I feel Quinn can do successfully and could help the young WR’s as well. He can make the short/intermediate throws, he gets through his progressions fast (most times too fast) so the short game fits his strengths. We have 1 WR that fits a Vertical passing offense. All others are small speed receivers who are known for catching well and running sharp routes (though not in this current system).
Correct, I made no mention of Cribbs on offense. This is just my personal opinion. Yes, he would be very undersized for the position, but….. I would maybe try him out at TE some as well, on passing downs. He has good upper body strength, runs solid routes, his best routes are usually 8-10 yards in length, he can definitely take a hit so sending him up the seam like they did with Winslow at times is something that could open up. The Wildcat should continue to be used as well. But, you unfortunately cannot rely on that set for a full 40 minutes.
Like I said, I am not pointing out that his long term plan is improper. I am pointing out that the current make of the roster on offense is more suited for the WCO, not a power running attack. So, I guess I must ask. If you disagree with scheming to the strength of the current players, then your ok with continuing down the path of 3 to 6 points per game?
Can any one Browns Employee be competent?
by Dawg26 on Nov 14, 2009 8:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
We have a great downhill runner in Jamal, but there is no threat to breaking outside, and no threat at WR so our power running game is diminished by the fact that the defense has no other threat to keep in check. And again, open receivers dropping balls negates any play calling abilities. The lack of talent pretty much destroys any game plan at the moment.
by L Train on Nov 14, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But we need a long term solution. If we got 1-7 in the second half, well, that sucks. But we are playing for the evaluation and learning process of next year at this point. Changing our entire offensive scheme isn’t realistic for this season.
Also, maybe we should be better than last year’s 4-12 team. But you failed to mention the Winslow and Edwards trades that certainly hurt our top talent for this season, but were designed to help the future. Even with that said, I think we are about a 4-12, 5-11 team right now. I see the team, with much more minor changes than you have suggested, grabbing a couple wins in the second half of the season against a much easier schedule.
by Ryan Kelsey on Nov 15, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
mooncamping? Is this you with a different account?
by justrandy on Nov 14, 2009 9:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea who mooncamping is. I just recently stumbled upon this site. I am a regular at the OBR dawgbacker26
Came accross this on Google while looking for the moron, Dawg Pound Mike’s site.
Can any one Browns Employee be competent?
by Dawg26 on Nov 14, 2009 9:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, at least we can agree on one thing.
by Simmsinns on Nov 14, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dawg Pound Mike is a media whore douchebag. I can’t stand him. He thinks he’s representative of all Browns fans. Sure, a guy that makes millions a year and can travel to any away game is totally representative of our fanbase. The problem with him is that he got camera time as one of Charlie’s Fryes and he couldn’t let go of the notoriety that inevitably came with it. He keeps trying to extend his fifteen minutes but he doesn’t realize that he’s a joke within the real Browns community.
by justrandy on Nov 14, 2009 9:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Though I would have ended your first sentence at ‘media whore’.
by golanbatrac on Nov 14, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s been blown up.
Think Miami, do the rebuild right. The first half-season has been nothing more than extended training camp, don’t waste the time.
I did mention that there is not the talent at this time to pull off this type of plan.
As a fan, after the coaching change I thought 6 wins. When K2 didn’t last a day and it became obvious that ‘right now’ was secondary to ‘long term’, the realist in me thinks 2-3 is more likely. I’m OK with that if management sticks to the plan.
by overthere on Nov 14, 2009 9:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Also if you run back punts and kickoffs you can run off tackle and sweeps, that was my thought.
by overthere on Nov 14, 2009 10:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Justrandy
Agree. I parked next to him opening day and as we were walking back to our car, we saw him getting into his car. I proceeded to let him know how much of a toolbag he was and that nobody likes him. Yes, definite attention whore!
Can any one Browns Employee be competent?
by Dawg26 on Nov 14, 2009 10:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Overthere
I agree… If you are rebuilding, like Miami, you have to do it right. But, as a guy who was under the scope the minute he walked into Berea and made the moves that he made in an attempt to make this team better now, he must compete. If not, he is gone….. Which is the situation he is currently in. If he doesn’t win 3 games of the next 8, he is out…. And may be out regardless.
For him to win now, or atleast show progress, he must scheme to the strengths of the roster. You cannot instill ball control offense with 2 turnover machines. You cannot instill a power run scheme with zone blockers and small scat backs. You cannot go Vertical passing with nobody to stretch the field. You have to have the right players in place to do this successfully. You can implement an offensive system for the short term until you get the pieces that you need in place to execute your long term plan.
You can make a pizza without cheese and sauce. But until you put cheese and sauce on the pizza, it will taste like $h!t and nobody will buy it.
And for the record, I was serious about Cribbs playing some TE. Like the Wildcat, I think with him at TE, you could create a lot of mismatches against the LB’s. But I wouldn’t count on him to be much of a blocker…. Though I wouldn’t discount anything with Cribbs!
Can any one Browns Employee be competent?
by Dawg26 on Nov 14, 2009 10:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
please try to use the reply button, it makes the conversation much easier to follow
by notthatnoise on Nov 14, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, new to your site here and am used to hitting a universal “reply” button. I will catch on though. Thanks
Can any one Browns Employee be competent?
by Dawg26 on Nov 14, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i didn’t mean to sound snarky or anything, just a tip, i know you’re new to the site and don’t know how everything works yet.
by notthatnoise on Nov 14, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with your assesment of the offensive line:
Steinbach and Fraley are zone blockers who are able to power block on occasion. Thomas can do whatever needs done, and do it well. Mack is the very definition of a power blocking center, though he’s athletic enough to zone block. Hadnot is an average power blocker. The rest of our linemen are sub par starters or average backups.
by golanbatrac on Nov 14, 2009 10:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not really seeing where your disagreement is? Thomas can do either, Steinbach zone, Mack can do either quite well, and Fraley is Zone. Hadnot/Womack are power, but Fraley is the better of the 3.
So with 4 guys on the line that can more than adequately zone block, and only 2 that could be be considered technicians of a power blocking scheme, not to mention 2 RB’s that would succeed more so in a zone scheme, why would you want to go Power? Am I missing something?
Can any one Browns Employee be competent?
by Dawg26 on Nov 14, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m disagreeing with your claim that ‘from LT to Center, you have zone blockers’. You didn’t make it clear that you knew that Thomas and Mack could do either.
I guess we don’t disagree then, though I’d question modifying schemes to suit our current backfield. Our back of the future isn’t on the roster, and the only way Harrison or Peerman become useful to us in the future is if they are the one’s who make the adjustment.
by golanbatrac on Nov 14, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, should have been more clear. Yes, I knew Tedford ran a power blocking scheme at Cal with Mack as the Centerpiece. Though, I have been intrigued those times seeing him pull behind the right guard and get up into the second level with his speed and athleticism.
If you think about what I am saying for a minute, I am not changing the scheme for just the RB’s and I am not suggesting that we not go power run in the future. What I am saying is that at this specific time, this team is best suited for a zone blocking scheme and rolling WCO. Just this group at this time. I am not saying the moving forward that we continue it. I am saying that Mangini himself would benefit not only from the team being more competitive playing to their strengths, but he/DaBoll can showcase that they are not one deminsional coaches either.
Point blank, the current offense doesn’t fit the power run scheme. I am not of the belief that you continue to move forward with things that don’t work. Specifically this particular situation. For the Short Term solution, they should go WCO/Zone. It makes much more sense than continuing down a path where too many pieces are missing for you to show that you can remotely compete, let alone win.
Now, had the games leading up to now been somewhat close and you could see some type of execution and/or translation of the gameplan to the field, then I wouldn’t suggest this…. But this team is getting blown out of the water week in and out. He HAS to change something up. If you keep going to a fight and getting your @$$ kicked, you might think about learning how to fight or finding a new solution to the problem!
Is that more clear? Maybe? I think I just failed in presenting this to where folks could see that this was nothing more than a short term solution, until the roster was built to his individual liking.
Can any one Browns Employee be competent?
by Dawg26 on Nov 14, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like an interesting scheme to try. Why not? I think Lewis is going to be in the dog house anyway and you might as well find out what you have. I don’t know if I’d go full WC but definitely a short, quick passing scheme and something simpler is going to work for Quinn in the short run. I think part of the problem in the recent past has been the complexity of the offense and too much variation week to week. I’m all for game planning but we have to start with some kind of core theme and then vary from that.
Brownsyup
by Brownsyup on Nov 16, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This team lacks skilled players on offense. The trading of Braylon and Winslow put huge wholes on this team. The replacements are two rookies at wideout and Steve Heiden. We have a washed up running back and another back Mangini doesn’t want to use for some reason. Why McCoy was passed up in the second round I don’t get. Maybe it was character issues who knows.
Just like Jaws and Gruden have stated, it doesn’t matter who QB’s this team, this is a slow and prodding offense that needs speed and separation.
by Grockcubs on Nov 14, 2009 12:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I stopped reading after you used all caps and four exclamation points in the first paragraph.
Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.
by woodsmeister on Nov 14, 2009 3:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’m not too keen on the caps and bold but the content is interesting and I’m sure Dawg26 will figure that out. Welcome Dawg to the best Browns board.
Brownsyup
by Brownsyup on Nov 16, 2009 3:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
they say he was a bold man……..very bold
by KBizzle on Nov 19, 2009 10:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by 




















