Fraley was horrendous in 2008, that much I know. Watch the Buffalo game for evidence.

my friend who likes the steelers told me that the steelers were going to take mack in the 1st.

Because he was already off the board when we picked, which was the point. Had we a) wanted to trade up, and b) been able to trade up, there were better players at positions of greater need available.

I think it would have been, but then again, hindsight is always 20-20.

i sure you do, you’d go another decade without losing to us.

Agreed. Other than the still somewhat unproven Crabtree, I’d say Harvin turned out to be the most talented WR from the 2009 draft.

Depends in the entire context of what we are trying to build. I would rather have a sick running game then a shut down secondary. A mauling center would go a long way to getting that. If we don’t acquire the other appropriate pieces to fit around Mack, then the pick is not as good as it should have been.

Agreed. I still hold out hope for Robiskie, but without any idea of why he can’t get on the field even in what should clearly be a developmental situation, maybe I’m just being blindly optimistic.

(jn a good way)

I wouldn’t say so. The gameplan that he is using has us going 1-11. I’m not saying don’t build a running team, i’m saying use what we have and conform a strategy out of our strengths, not walking into an entirely new organization expecting to fit square pieces into circle molds. He’s trying to make us the Jets.

He’s trying to make a successful and even with 11 losses and a 13- 6 home win over a obviously sub par team, it is still obvious that this team is playing for Mangini and with all the injuries they are fighting to be competitive we have two winnable games and a final home date against a Jax team that might be fighting for a playoff spot. If we win those three games we have a 5 win season, probably around where everyone expected us to be.

Now obviously we would have gotten there in an ugly manner but gotten there nonetheless and gotten there with a late season run that would create some optimism for the offseason, where we will have mad draft picks and the intrigue of a new GM coming in.

Recent success can often cover past failures.

what are you talking about?? Are you beginning to make stuff up? Who cares if these backups know the offense or not, the players that you go after are ones who can uprade the team. Let them do their job of learning the offense like most players in th NFL have to when they go to a new team. He rid the team of players who were accustomed to playing with the browns and filled it with players who were accustomed to the Jets. Like I said before no coach goes to a team expecting to make them into their old team. And he’s trying to turn the browns into the Jets. The Jets that he flopped with and fired him.

Those players have upgraded the team. We have had many injuries that have hurt us, not that we would be all that much better, but the ex-Jets on the team are not the reason we have 11 losses.

Congrats again on a great pick whose just starting to catch 3 balls a game. DA is a guy who’s nuts you were probably on 2 years ago, don’t degrade him down to a 4th stringer now. And once again you proved my point about filling the team up with average players.

Every team wants above average players. Unfortunately they don’t grow on trees and you can’t just conjure them out of thin air. So far Mangini has done a good job using a cost effective method and a method that has brought in guys who know his system and are able and will be able to teach it to and monitor guys that we bring in. Guys who will undoubtedly be more talented than our ex-Jets but will also be new to the team and the systems.

In my uneducated view, having these ex-Jets on the team when we have our massive amount of draft picks next year is a great benefit. We have some guys on the team that we know can contribute and they know what’s going on and will be an example out young guys can follow in camp, preseason, etc.

He rid the team of players who were accustomed to playing with the browns and filled it with players who were accustomed to the Jets. Like I said before no coach goes to a team expecting to make them into their old team. And he’s trying to turn the browns into the Jets. The Jets that he flopped with and fired him.

Also by bringing in ex-Jets, Mangini a first year coach here in Cleveland, has basically created 2+ year vets. Mangini’s Browns are not Savage’s and Romeo’s Browns. So whether they are accustomed to playing for the Browns in my opinion means very little, because right now the only connection this team has to last year’s team is some players and a name. Also if you are taking over a 4-12 team i sure as heck hope you are trying to make that team over into another team and not the one that they were because we were a 4 – 12 mess team that had lost 6 in a row to end the season with no viable options at most positions on the field.

And yes the Jets flopped, but stop overlooking the fact that Favre finished the season hurt.

The only thing I will say is, using Yahoo for scouting analysis is not the best way to prove your point.

The gameplan that he is using has us going 1-11. I’m not saying don’t build a running team, i’m saying use what we have and conform a strategy out of our strengths, not walking into an entirely new organization expecting to fit square pieces into circle molds.

1. 2-11 after last night’s win over the Steelers. And we still have a chance to better last years’ stellar 4-12 record when we were, presumably, using square pegs in square holes (or molds, or whatever it is you’re talking about…?).

2. I’m all for building a strong running team, but I never made mention of it in my prior post. Had you read the supplied link carefully (or at all) you would have learned that:

“Despite its reputation, this system is not always a run first offense. Erhardt commonly ran the system in his later years spread wide open with multiple receivers (earning the moniker “Air Erhardt”), as NFL rules evolved to benefit the passing game. As a result of this influence, the Patriots will frequently run this offense with five potential receivers and an empty backfield should a favorable matchup present itself or as a function of available personnel. With the addition of Randy Moss and Wes Welker to the Patriots offense in 2007, the Patriots placed an emphasis on a wide open passing attack (with record setting results).

3. What strengths? When he took over we had the thinnest roster in all of the NFL. Who should we have built around, and what offensive/defensive scheme would have best suited their abilities?

He’s trying to make us the Jets.

I hear he’s got super secret plans to change the team colors and add a whirligig to the helmets as well… The nerve of this guy!

what are you talking about??

Football. You?

Who cares if these backups know the offense or not, the players that you go after are ones who can uprade the team. Let them do their job of learning the offense like most players in th NFL have to when they go to a new team. He rid the team of players who were accustomed to playing with the browns and filled it with players who were accustomed to the Jets. Like I said before no coach goes to a team expecting to make them into their old team. And he’s trying to turn the browns into the Jets. The Jets that he flopped with and fired him.

1. Players who know the scheme ARE an upgrade over players who don’t.

2. It doesn’t matter one iota what team a player is ‘accustomed to playing with’. Charlie Frye is ‘accustomed to playing with the Browns’. So is Sean Smith. I don’t want either of those guys on my team.

3. Mangini led the Jets to a winning record twice in three years and the playoffs once.

All of these players have contributed to the worst run defense in the league, And also I should send my thanks to mangini on upgrading our team by getting a player just as bad as the last one we had. Thats the mark of a great coach and justification of a delusional fan. Trusnik has a couple sack and he’s a surprise? He’s still have been ran over by RB’s and misses tackles. Thats not surprising

1. Again, the roster is thin. It’s less thin now than it was when Mangini first got here, but still, it’s thin. Many of these guys are starters out of necessity. As we’re able to acquire players over the next year or two, they become backups. Quality, experienced depth (something we have not had in the expansion era).

2. Elam’s contract: 1 year, $1.5 million; Sean Jones contract: 1 year, $3 million. Elam is leading the Browns in tackles. Jones is a backup with the Eagles.

3. We gave up nothing for Trusnik, and he’s contributing, not just on special teams as expected, but on the defense as well.

Congrats again on a great pick whose just starting to catch 3 balls a game. DA is a guy who’s nuts you were probably on 2 years ago, don’t degrade him down to a 4th stringer now. And once again you proved my point about filling the team up with average players.

1. That’s three more balls than Edwards was catching for us.

2. I was never ‘on DA’s nuts’. 2007 was a mirage. I said it at the time, and I continue to say it. A 10 win team without depth or direction isn’t a ten win team.

3. As someone pointed out earlier this week, DA would have a better QB rating right now had he simply thrown nothing but incomplete passes all year. He hasn’t just had a bad year, he’s had a historically bad year.

4. Average players or quality depth?

1. Yes mack was a reach at 21. Most people realizes this but you. as quoted by yahoo sports

"After some wheeling and dealing on draft day, the Browns finally made a selection at pick 21 and brought in center Alex Mack. I think this a bit high for Mack,"

Or what about cleveland scouts:

Despite being described a reach by many draft pundits, in selecting Mack at #21, the Browns got the man they had targeted early

Both of your above sources had him going 32 to the Steelers. Late in the first round, where he went. We took him as late as we could while still guaranteeing that we got him with both the Steelers and Bills very interested in Mack.

“Alex Mack was a good pick at No. 21 and Mohamed Massaquoi was a very good pickup in the second round. I think fellow second-rounder David Veikune was a bit of a reach in that round, but not enough of one to seriously dent the Browns’ grade. They didn’t get a great receiver in Brian Robiskie in the second round, but he’s polished enough as a rookie that he could be a solid possession guy for this franchise.” — Mel Kiper

2. Center is a much easier position to fill than RT

How many Tackles were taken in the draft? Answer: 23 How many Centers? Answer: 5 Quality Centers are a rarity.

3. Stop making stuff up again. Centers are the lowest paid position on the line, are the least sought after but yet the second most important position? Please…try again.

Do I really need to post the link to that Len Pasquarelli article again? Scroll up, take a few minutes and read the article.

Mass was actually projected to go in the fourth round. Robiske was projected in the late first to second, but the only teams who he was projected to go to was either the colts or pats, two teams who could make me turn into a start reciever.

And also Robiske was the 7th ranked WR and MoMass was the 13th ranked WR. Do research before you begin making stuff up.
In regards to them being reaches, this is also from cleveland scouts.

"While the selections of WR’s Brian Robiskie at #36 and Mohamed Massaquoi at #50 are also considered reaches at their respective draft spots by some"

And calling veikune a half round of a reach is blind stupidity

“Alex Mack was a good pick at No. 21 and Mohamed Massaquoi was a very good pickup in the second round. I think fellow second-rounder David Veikune was a bit of a reach in that round, but not enough of one to seriously dent the Browns’ grade. They didn’t get a great receiver in Brian Robiskie in the second round, but he’s polished enough as a rookie that he could be a solid possession guy for this franchise.” — Mel Kiper

Show me the guru who had MoMass projected as a fourth round pick please.

What were the needs on this team? You seem to feel that the WR was a bigger need than any other position on this team. And WR’s are kinda like RB. Their success in large part depends on the people around them. So if our plan was to develop WR’s over 3 year then there shouldn’t have been no problem allowing a later round pick to develop since there is the same amount of risk involved.

You just moved the goalpost (again). I wasn’t making a point about team needs (clearly DB and WR were both needs). I was pointing out the contradiction in the application of your draft day logic to one position of need while lambasting Mangini for applying the same logic at another position of need.

You seem to know nothing of nfl positions or you are just using this as a justification. For the most part an interior linebacker is an interior linebacker regardless of whether he’s needed for a 3-4 or a 4-3. To say these players don’t fit our defense is ridiculous.

Since you have this insight, which college ILB or position does fit our defense? Are you telling me a DE from Hawaii fits our ILB position better than MLB’s from OSU and USC? Whats even more ridiculous is the fact that you were pushing for Aaron Curry, who is naturally a WLB, who is WAY more unfit for a 3-4 than any MLB’s for a 3-4. This really proves you’re talking out the side of your neck.

1. The mistake you’re making is in assuming that college position is more important than build and skill set. Speed, agility, lateral movement, the size to stop the run, the speed to get to the sideline, the ability to cover Tight ends backs and slot receivers, etc… all have more to do with where a player projects in the NFL than what position they played in college.

2. I like Veikune better on the outside, but trust that Mangini knows more about it than any of us here.

3. I never pushed for Aaron Curry. He would have been hard to pass up at number 5 though, because like Suh this year, his game is strong in so many facets that it doesn’t matter what defense he plays in. Suh and Curry are exceptional prospects though. Laurenitis is not.

You saying you perfer mack means nothing since Mangini could have picked a punter and you would find a way to justify it. A good LB is better for the 32 ranked defense than a center is for a bad run game.

1. prefer, not perfer.

2. I would have had a HUGE problem with the Browns selecting a punter in the first round. I’m going to guess that you would have had them select a strawman.

3. Good linebackers (as good or better than Laurenitis) will be available next year, the year after, and every year from now until the end of time. Great Center prospects are few and far between.

I’m fighting the good fight, but you continue creating things up in your head in order to justify your lack of independent thinking. I guess every club have the blind sheep fanboy.

I’m surprised you can type with your knee jerking like that.

The Packers are what the Browns should be. Well run organization, die-hard fanbase.

He made a few plays that don’t show up in the stat sheet, too. Just saying he hasn’t been flawless. Thanks for the quibbling jab, though.