Why have the Browns never had a running game?

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 5, 2009 4:24 PM EST Comment 84 comments

I have made some of these points in other threads, and this is very long, so I apologize ahead of time.

Even in todays pass first NFL, teams still need to run the ball. I believe that there are three main components to a successful run game. In order, they are;

Offensive Line Play
Quarterback Play
Running Back

I know this sounds odd. How can the running back only be third on that list? My belief lies in the fact that if a team has an above average line that is able to control the LOS and decent quarterback play, most running backs would be successful. I think it is more important to have a talented QB than a talented RB, so I ranked it higher in importance. You could make a very effective case that those two should be switched, but it is my belief. Please understand that I am not saying that all running backs are plug and play. I would love to have Chris Johnson as our running back. I don't think he would be having the same season he is having in Tennessee, but I think he would still be explosive. I will touch on this further on Monday with another fanpost. I will link to it when I finish.

I have gone back to 1999. I compared the offensive line starters, the QB performance (I am using QB rating as a comparision stat. I don't think it is the greatest tool to use, but for this excersise, I think it is good enough), and finally looking at the leading rusher for each season. I am hoping to find out why the Browns have had such a hard time getting a ground game going.

1999

Browns

Offensive line; (LT, LG, C, RG, RT)

Lomas Brown, Jim Payne, Dave Wohlabaugh, Scott Renberg, Orlando Brown

That is fugly.

QB Play:

Tim Couch finished with a 73.2. (I would kill for a Browns QB to put up a 73.2 this season. That is how far we have fallen. I am pining for the days of Tim Couch. Kill me now.)

Leading Rusher:

Terry Kirby. He finished with 3.5 YPC for the season. Just for comparision sake, Jamal Lewis is getting 3.5 YPC this season. For his career, Kirby was never anything special. He got 100+ carries five times in his career. In those five seasons, he went over 3.8 YPC once. Yeah, that is not so hot.

Conclusion:

I don't think that anyone really expected much out of the Browns this season. We had a horrible roster and little chance of getting anything going. I think Barry Sanders would have had a hard time running behindthat offensive line.

2000

Offensive line:

Roman Oben, Steve Zahursky, Wohlobaugh, Everett Lindsey, James Brown.

One returning starter from the previous season. Even from a crappy unit, that sort of turnover is never a really good thing.

QB Play:

Tim Couch had a 77.3 rating. He only played half the season because of injury. Doug Pederson filled in and had a 56.6 rating. Yeesh.

Leading Rusher:

Travis Prentice

Prentice had 3.0 YPC for the season. He was the Browns 3rd round pick (63rd player overall) Prentice was a bad NFL back. He lasted in Cleveland for one season, his rookie season. After that he went to Minnesota for one season where he had 13 yards on 14 carries. You read that right. We wasted the 63rd choice on Travis Prentice. I just puked.

Conclusion:

Travis Prentice was a bad NFL back. The fact that he never caught on elsewhere shows that. The fact that the Browns wasted a third round pick on him makes me want to cry. The Browns offensive line was another mostly patchwork line. If a team is starting from scratch every year in the run game, a run game is never going to develop.

2001

Browns

Offensive line:

Oben, Ross Verba, Wohlobaugh, Jeremy McKinney, Roger Chanione

60% new starters. In three seasons the Browns have had 13 starters on the offensive line. This is the third season since the return. The fact that the Browns didn't have a single buildling block on their offensive line is a huge red flag. Verba is the only player on this line that was maybe league average.

QB Play:

Tim Couch goes for 73.1 rating. Nothing special. Approaching bust status.

Leading rusher:

James Jackson

James Jackson was a rookie out of the "U". He averaged 2.8 YPC. But he was really, really talented. Butch Davis told me so. He was the 65th pick in the 2001 NFL draft. How many crap running backs did we draft in third rounds? It isn't hard to figure out why this team has stunk for so long when I look back at old drafts.

Conclusion:

The revolving door at offensive line was still in motion for the Browns. The earliest draft choice that the Browns had used at this point on an offensive lineman was the final pick in the sixth round in 2000. In the 2001 draft Paul Zukaukas was taken in the 7th round. To expect a brand new franchise to be able to function without addressing a main need year in and year out was, IMO, THE reason that the Browns struggled so badly out of the gates.

2002

Offensive Line:

Verba, Barry Stokes, Wohlobaugh, Shaun O'Hara, Ryan Tucker

Again 60% turnover. Granted, this group was far and away the best group, but still to have 3 new starters year in and year out kills the continuity of an offensive line.

QB Play:

Tim Couch had a 76.8 rating, Kelly Holcomb had a 92.9 rating four games. Maybe you guys heard of this, they had a QB controversy.

Leading rusher:

William Green, rookie out of BC, had a 3.7 YPC. I have a hard time judging William Green. He had talent, but he always seemed to be lacking a certain urgerncy when it came to hitting a hole. He always seemed to be waiting in the backfield. For his career he averaged 3.7 YPC for his career. Jamel White had 106 carries and posted a 4.4 YPC in 2001.

Conclusion:

This team still couldn't run the ball when it mattered. In the playoff game, we ran the ball 28 times for 38 yards. I wanted William Green to be a good back, but with his off the field issues and crap offensive line, he never was more than a average at best RB.

2003

Offensive line:

Stokes, O'Hara, Jeff Faine/Melvin Fowler, Zukauskas, Tucker

Only Ryan Tucker returned to his position from the previous season. I couldn't make this stuff up. Faine was the first offensive lineman taken in the first two rounds since the Browns returned. It is a pattern at this point. Offensive lines cannot be made with band aids and retreads.

QB play:

Kelly Holcomb played 8 games with a 74.6 rating and Couch played 8 games with a 77.6 rating.

Leading Rusher:

William Green only played in 7 games. He averaged 80 YPG. He still was at 3.9 YPC which isn't awesome, but was the high water mark for his career. James Jackson, Lee Suggs, and Jamel White all started some games the rest of the season with only Suggs having an impact (5.2 YPC in only 50 carries).

Conclusion

William Green struggled again. The line was once again musical chairs. How can we expect a rushing game to get going when the most important aspect of the running game is in complete and total flux year in and year out?

2004

Offensive Line:

Verba, Enoch DeMar, Faine, Kevin Garmon, Joaquin Gonzalez

Again. 60% turnover. By the way, DeMar was undrafted. Garmon and Gonzalez were both 7th rounders. Yes, sometimes you can find a great offensive lineman late or undrafted. These, aren't those kind of guys. Another patchwork group.

QB Play:

Jeff Garcia came in and put up a 76.7 rating. Outside of his stint in Detroit, it was the worst of his career.

Leading rusher:

Suggs and Green split carries with Suggs having an edge even though William Green started 12 games to Suggs 4. Suggs followed up his great finish of '03 with a pretty normal '04. Suggs had a 3.7 YPC while Green had a 3.6 YPC. I think both of these backs are comparable. For Suggs I think that injuries really robbed him of his explosion and a real shot at being special. He averaged 4.0 YPC for his career. Running behind a garabge OLine, Suggs and Green did pretty decent with this season.

2005

Offensive Line:

L.J Shelton, Joe Andruzzi, Faine, Cosey Coleman, Tucker

80% turnover from the previous season. Shelton, Tucker and Faine are all prett decent offensive lineman. Coleman was on the backside of a decent career. This was the best offensive line since the Browns return. that isn't saying much.

QB Play:

Trent Dilfer put up a 76.9 rating. He was benched though in favor of rookie Charlie Frye, a grudge that he still arries with him today. Let it go Trent. You Trent freakin Dilfer. Frye came in went for a 72.8 rating. Not to bad for a rookie.

Leading rusher:

Finally! A 1,000 yard season. Ruben Droughns gave the Browns the best RB that he had since '99. If you don't remember, Droughns had a 1,200 yard season in '04 with the RB factory that is Denver. He was then traded to Cleveland for some crappy defensive lineman. Droughns came in and ran for 4.0 YPC a full half yard lower than his season before in Denver. 4.0 YPC is the second highest mark for a leading rusher for the Browns in the '99-'09 decade. Seriously.

Conclusion:

The Browns rode Droughns. He ran hard and faced a lot of tough fronts with a rookie QB. He had a nice season. that being said, the Browns running attack still ranked 24th in the NFL. Reason was that the Browns only had Droughns. Our second leading carrier for the season was Trent Dilfer. Think about that. A QB that played in 11 games had the second most carries for the Browns at 20. A nice season for Droughns, but still a poor season for the Browns.

2006

Offensive Line:

Kevin Schaffer, Joe Andruzzi, Hank Fraley, Coleman, Tucker/ Kelly Butler

Once again the Browns have 60% new starters. Fraley was needed because LeCharles Bentley went down. It was a good move that was cut down by some horrid luck. It's Cleveland. We should have seen it coming.

QB Play:

Charlie Frye started 13 games and turned in a 72.2 rating. Derek Anderson came off the bench and helped out with a 63.1 rating in 3 starts.

Leading rusher:

Ruben Droughns was cooked. Maybe it was the previous seasons workload catching up or maybe his carriage finally turned back into a pumpkin, but he came up with a 3.4 YPC. Jason Wright was the back-up and he gave a 3.0 YPC. That is really, really, ugly.

Conclusion:

The Browns had added some decent lineman. Fraley was good ceonsidering what most expected and Schaffer was playing out of position, but was a definite step up over Shelton. Still another season with continuous line make overs is not a good thing.

2007

Offensive Line:

Joe Thomas, Eric Steinbach, Fraley, Tucker/ Seth McKinney, Shaffer

As good as it has been in Cleveland. Yes the line had 80% new starters at new positions, but the Browns added two pro bowlers. Anytime you add in two pro bowl level players it is a great move. Plus the Browns kept the three best lineman from the previous season.

QB Play:

Derek Anderson bloomed right before our eyes. He had a 82.5 QB rating and went to the Pro Bowl. By far the best season that the Browns have had out of a QB in a long, long time.

Leading Rusher:

Jamal Lewis had the second highest YPC of his career in '07 with a 4.4 average. Jason Wright also chipped in with a 4.6 YPC on 60 carries. For the very first time since '99, the Browns had a rushing game that could win games.

Conclusion:

The pass game led by Anderson, Edwards and Winslow was allowing the Browns to run the ball effectively behind a much improved O-Line. I still think that Jamal Lewis was very close to the end of his career, but the other two factors of the run game were working so well, even a RB on the backside of his career could go for great numbers. For the first time the Browns made a real effort to bolster the offensive line and it showed.

2008

Offensive Line:

Thomas, Steinbach, Fraley, Rex Hadnot, Kevin Schaffer

For the first time in over 10 years the Browns didn't replace more than one starter from the previous season. Hadnot was brought in and was named the starter after Ryan Tucker had his off the field issues and drug suspension. Fraley fell off and went from decent to well below average. the left side was still one of the best in all the NFL.

QB Play:

Browns had 4 starting QBs this season. One stunk more than the other. Just for the sake of keeping everything uniform, here are your stats. Anderson, 66.5 rating. Quinn, 66.6 rating. Dorsey, 26.4 rating. Gradkowski 2.8 rating (that isn't a typo).

Leading rusher:

Jamal Lewis once again was the leading rusher for the Browns. He averaged 3.6 YPC. His backup Jerome Harrison averaged 7.2 (7.2!) on 34 carries. Once again we see a RB that didn't have much of a back-up to take some of the weight of Jamal's shoulders. We saw the same kind of thing happen to Droughns. How can a RB stay fresh when he is on the field at all times? Don't forget that Jamal Lewis was playing with some of the worst QB play that anyone had seen in quite sometime.

Conclusion:

This is why I think that QB play is so very important to running the ball. Adrian Peterson couldn't have done much on this seasons team. The QB situation was a complete garbage fire. Plus Lewis was asked to do waaay to much. He was a 29 YO running back that was asked to carry an offense. Chester Taylor had 100 carries in 2008 behind Adrian Peterson. Bad situation with an aging RB. Asking for trouble.

2009

Offensive Line:

Thomas, Stienbach, Alex Mack, Floyd Womack, John St. Clair.

Another season, another 3 starters. The Mack pick was the right move. As for the other two, I am not sure that they are any sort of step-up from the previous season.

QB Play:

Don't look if you're easily gagged. Quinn, 66.7 rating. Anderson, 36.2 rating. By the way the QB rating for an incompete pass is 39.6. In other words if DA does nothing but throw incomplete passes, he would have a better passing rating than he has now.

Leading rusher:

Jamal Lewis is getting 3.5 YPC. He sucks. We know this now.

Conclusion:

This is the worst offense I have ever seen.

I had no idea the amount of turnover our offensive line has gone through over the years. 9 out of 10 seasons the Browns have added at least two new starters from the previous season. I have gone back and looked at successful running teams (Denver and Tennessee). These teams have used multiple draft picks on lineman, and have for the most part kept starters from season to season. This isn't a fluke. Quarterbacks have come and gone with those two teams, yet they always seem to be in the hunt. No matter if it is Steve McNair, Billy Volek, Kerry Collins, or Vince Young. Broncos rolled with Griese, Plummer and Cutler.

The faces could change on the O-Lines, but it was never a full swap out. these teams and front offices planned for these changes. Tennessee would lose Brad Hopkins as a LT. They planned ahead and drafted Michael Roos in the second round the previous season and let him get his feet wet as a RT as a rookie. In 2005 Justin Hartwig leaves as a FA, the Titans replace him with All-Pro Kevin Mawae. It is a plan that is laid out and followed.

The Browns have shown a pattern to always rip out guts and start new every season. We have the best LT in the game. Stienbach is a vey good guard who has struggled at times this season, but I believe is a player that can be counted on in the future. Mack is a stud that i think will get better in ever season. RG and RT will have to be addressed. I hope whoever is in charge of next seasons draft will use our second rounder on an offensive lineman.

What do you think has been the Browns major flaw in developing a run game?

Poll

What has been the biggest hold-up in the Browns developing a running attack?

The lack of a true, in prime, running back

95 votes

The lack of any real passing threat

53 votes

The lack of development of the Browns offensive line

228 votes

Coaching scheme

67 votes

Other (Please explain in comments)

9 votes

452 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs | Comment 84 comments | Share

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Question when was the last time the brfowns\\

by broncosfaninphilly on Dec 5, 2009 4:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Oops sorry !

When was the last time any browns QB or RB played with a lead in a game ?
Mabey things would turnout diffrently in this situation . success leads to confidence which
could get shattered when your team is constantly trailing on the score board.

by broncosfaninphilly on Dec 5, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That is an issue that I thought about.

My personal feeling was that if a team runs the ball properly, you should never really be in a situation where you are getting blown out. Sort of a chicken or the egg kind of thing.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 5, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I enjoyed reading this post very interesting ....REC-ED also

by broncosfaninphilly on Dec 5, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks!

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 5, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Alot of work went into this I will give you that IMO we have no had a back worth givin the ball to as well so yes you listed 3 issues ine is 1 but think are last 2 years passing has been so bad because teams do not have to worry about Lewis running the ball because they know he is 2 steps slower and can’t hit a hole.So it is alowing teams to place LB in the middle of the passing lanes and taks that part of the field away were a good running back that could break one for more then10 yards would have the LB’s up on the line more.

Passing and running work hand and hand if you can’t run you can’t pass the ball well eather.As well if you can’t pass you cant run well eather.

by Brownsfan4ever on Dec 5, 2009 5:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Passing and running work hand and hand if you can’t run you can’t pass the ball well eather.As well if you can’t pass you cant run well eather.

To a point. The Colts have one of the worst running games, yet they can throw the ball. Same for the Cards. That is because of the talent that these teams have at QB and WR.

Jamal Lewis ran for 2000 yards with Boller and Anthony Wright at QB. Adrian Peterson put up a great season last year with Gus Ferotte and Tavaris Jackson.

We don’t have either one of those kind of talents, but it can be done.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 5, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I will give you Colts the past 2 years but before that they had James ad won the SB with him running the ball.As for the Cards they have a ground game now with Wells and he looks like he will be a stud.

Not sure if there has ever been a team to win the Supper Bowl with out haveing a 1,000 yard rusher? (been trying to find info but have came up with nothing)

by Brownsfan4ever on Dec 6, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m pretty sure the Patriots didn’t have a 1000-yard rusher for either of their first two Super Bowls, and possibly all three (I think Corey Dillon was there for the third one). There running backs were mostly no-name guys like Antowan Smith and Kevin Faulk.

by Buckeye Brad on Dec 6, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Antowain Smith had 1000 yards in the first Super Bowl season for the Pats but not the second one. And Dillon had 1000 yards in their third championship season. But the Steelers didn’t have a 1000-yard rusher last season — Parker led them with 791 — and neither did the Bucs when they won it. So it’s happened three times in the last 7 seasons alone.

by Buckeye Brad on Dec 6, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually, the Colts won the Super Bowl with Dominic Rhodes and Joseph Addai running the ball for them.

"Nobody ever thinks, 'Hey, maybe I’m actually an idiot.'" - Jay

by woodsmeister on Dec 7, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ahhh . . .Travis Prentice. When I was at the Browns/Broncos game earlier this season I saw a lot of Browns fans in the parking lots tailgating and wearing various Browns jerseys. My buddy and I were picking out all the random jerseys fans had on — Leroy Hoard, Chris Spielman, Charlie Frye, etc. — but the oddest one we saw was a guy in a Travis Prentice jersey. I didn’t know if I was more surprised that they actually made Travis Prentice jerseys or that some Browns fan somewhere still had one in his closet and chose it to wear to a game. I mean, you have to be a pretty serious Browns fan to have a Travis Prentice jersey, but then you’d think a really serious fan would have bought another jersey within the last 9 years. Although I suppose he could be a Miami grad; that might make some sense. Either way, it seemed like an odd choice of a jersey.

by Buckeye Brad on Dec 5, 2009 9:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I like this analysis. It is difficult to pinpoint 1, 2 or even 3 factors that affect any given aspect of a team. Once you pin down one or two, you can think of several more (preparation, play calls, etc.). Then there is the “Old Lady The Swallowed a Fly” syndrome: poor receivers running poor patterns lead to poor passing game leads to defense stacking box leads to bad running game. Or bad running game due to primary back declining skills leads to more linebackers in pass coverage leads to no open receivers which leads to QB getting sacked… that kind of thing. It just seems difficult to point to 1 or 2 particular things.
Having said that there are probably prime movers in what causes problems in an offense and these are probably pretty key items. I think your analysis definitely shows the effect of a very poor O-line with lots of turn-over. Then looking at our current line which seems to have more skilled players than we’ve ever had, it accounts for why our running game still sucks. It is pretty obvious that we are missing the passing game this year AND our best RB has significantly declined skills.
Reading this made my eyes bleed for sure. It is really painful to see how horrible the team has been at maintaining any kind of continuity.

Brownsyup

by Brownsyup on Dec 5, 2009 9:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I am glad you posted this. Great information, well done.
This has been my biggest beef this franchise ( there have been many since 1999).
The Browns have always taken a patch the holes on the “O” line since 1999, hence the constant turnover. The Bently injury was unfortunate and untimely. He was by all accounts one of the better “O” lineman in the league, two Pro-Bowls at two different postions and only 26 when the Browns signed him.
Three good picks in the draft (IMO) Thomas, Fanine and Mack, the rest wavier wire, FA’s, and released players.
The running back situation is actually worse. By-passing Portis ( Butch) for William Green and Andre Davis was just plain dumb. Passing on LT and drafting Gerard Green was another bust. And to really nick pick, Sproles, Barber and Brandon Jacobs were all drafted in the 4th round. Browns picks leading up to that point: Braylon, Pool, Charlie Frye, and Antonio Perkins. Should the Browns hit every pick, NO, but you would think they would get a good running back in the 3rd to 5th round range just maybe once in awhile. Frank Gore was taken in the 3rd round in the 2005 draft.
Browns have had to many draft failures and to many front office changes/directions. This is why we are 1-10.

by Grockcubs on Dec 5, 2009 10:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

That been said, watching the Texas/Nebraska game. If the Browns get the chance draft Suh, don’t even second guess, don’t trade down. Just draft the guy.

by Grockcubs on Dec 5, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That was the most dominating game by a DT I have ever witnessed. That isn’t hyperbole either. Texas had no chance against him. Everything they tried failed. Cutting. Double team. Running away from him. Rolling McCoy out of the pocket. It did not matter.

12 tackles. 7 for a loss. 4.5 sacks. Those are Playstation numbers. I have seen 5-6 Nebraska games this season. Suh has been a monster in almost all of them. But tonight was the real treat. He was unstopable. He has the quickness of a DE and the brute strength of a NT.

The best play he made all night was on a QB draw by McCoy. McCoy was planning on running through the gap on the right of Suh. Instead Suh ripped with his left arm. The center/guard was still holding him across his body. Suh grabbed McCoy with his right arm, while still being held by the O-Lineman and threw McCoy down for a one yard loss. Absolute beast mode.

I have been in the Eric Berry camp because I think that he is truely special. I am now in the Suh camp because I think that he really has a shot to be the best DT in the NFL in 3 years. If we bring in a 4-3 coach, can you imagine Rogers and Suh in the middle for the next 4-5 seasons? I just peed a little I’m so excited!

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 6, 2009 2:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I said to my brother earlier in the year that Suh was the best D lineman I have ever seen at the college level, last night he agreed with me.

by Roger Dorn on Dec 6, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And Texas has an all american center

by TheRealSlimShady on Dec 6, 2009 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

suh > berry

if suh’s out of the question, that’s when we take berry.

by emily522 on Dec 7, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I want to see the combine before I come to that conclusion. Both have a huge amount of “it”, to go along with stellar film, and seemingly great intelligence and attitudes.

But for DBs, speed is very, very important. If Berry ran something ridiculous at the combine to go along with all of his intangibles, I’d have to think about putting him ahead of Suh.

by rufio on Dec 7, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok Al Davis

by TheRealSlimShady on Dec 8, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It doesn’t work so well for WRs, but having speed at the CB and probably even S positions is absolutely necessary.

That’s partially why you don’t see many CBs drafted outside the 1st/early to mid 2nd turn out to be true #1 CBs.

by rufio on Dec 8, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I voted “Other (Please explain in comments)”.

My write in is: “All of the above.”

by Simmsinns on Dec 5, 2009 11:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

+1
i would like to change my vote to this one

by L Train on Dec 6, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This was a great read and I enjoyed it. Though when speaking of the garbage linemen we traded for Rueben Droughns, Those guys were Ebeneizer Ekuban, Gerard Warren, and Kenard Lang They went to the Broncos and the next season led one of the top 3 defenses in the AFC that year. They were killed by injuries that started in Cleveland.

by razordawg on Dec 6, 2009 12:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Droughns was traded for Ekuban and Michael Myers (The DT not the killer).

The Broncos added Warren for a 4th rounder in 2005.

Kenard Lang was released by the Browns and signed in Denver as a FA.

In 2005 Courtney Brown also went to Denver as a FA.

One mans trash, is another mans treasure I guess.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 6, 2009 2:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting reading B19K. Quite a litany of change in those summaries. Given the odds of yet more upheaval next year, it’s depressing to think that it’s likely to continue…

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Dec 6, 2009 12:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

But I see a silver lining.

No matter what coach we hire, I am 99% certain that we have our LT, LG, and Center next season.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 6, 2009 2:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, as bad as the line has been, this seems to me like something we can be really happy about going forward, and maybe the only block we have left on which to build for the future. Thomas and Mack will anchor this line for years to come, and even steinbach has a few good years left in him. if we pick up a decent RT in the early/middle rounds(3rd or 4th), this line could be scary good in 2 years.

by Dawg Nuts on Dec 6, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Good points, gentlemen. Thanks, I feel a little better.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Dec 6, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not sure- Steinbach has been pretty awful this year.

by gahnki on Dec 6, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

but has shown he is good. not ready to call him over the hill yet. he has some years left in him.

by Dawg Nuts on Dec 6, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Football Outsiders did a nice analysis on OL continuity in their 2007 prospectus, tellingly putting it as a special feature in the Browns section. Quick summary:

Over 7 years by the FO analysis 6 teams rated “excellent”, four teams rated “poor” and 22 were average. The excellent group had 25 postseason trips, the poor group made just one (interestingly that’s the 2002 Browns).

And most relevantly:

“Continuity does not measure whether the new lineman is a top pick or a star free agent or some guy off the practise squad. It is only concerned with how long that player remains in the starting lineup”

by LondonBrown on Dec 6, 2009 4:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

obviously its a combination of everything listed so far, but i think the most important factors are the line and poor coaching schemes. by poor coaching schemes i’m including things like play calling, play design, and blocking scheme.

by notthatnoise on Dec 6, 2009 12:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

agree that it’s a combination of everything, but forced to chose one, I think choice #1, the identity of the RB has been the biggest problem by far.

I know that seems like the dumb fan’s answer, but these guys have been horrible. There hasn’t been one with either breakaway speed or dynamic moves. Not one guy that another organization would have wanted to take from us. Green was a bust, and he was the only real attempt at an all-around top-shelf RB. I hate this.

by dgcambridge on Dec 7, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What’s frustrating this year is that it’s very hard to get a good gauge on the line’s ability to run-block. An average NFL back will put up a an average YPC of 4. An offensive line can control the YPC number by neutralizing the front level defenders. Anything extra is upon the ability of the back. The problem is that Jamal Lewis is so bad that I’m not sure whether to attribute the horrible rushing numbers to the offensive line or JL.

by gahnki on Dec 6, 2009 2:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

i would agree, two guys i would keep an eye on in the draft would be toby gerhart from stanford; this man is a beast who hardly goes down on first contact, hop he slips to the second round for us to take, also i think lagarret blount from oregon will go no higher than middle third round; because of attitude problems and the whole punch thing( i think coaches besides al davis will frown on this character flaw) i dont think we will get suh, i think tampa will snatch him up, second best thing to do? take eric berry, then go after a team like san fran.who has two picks in the first round and trade corey williams( who hasnt produced much since coming from GB, and a fifth and six roun this year and maybe a second next year to get one of their first rounders this year, then take iaputo from idaho, or trent williams from oklahoma!

by findlaybrownslover on Dec 6, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Gerhart will be a intresting pick not sure how good he really is and for a collage back 300+ carries is a lot.Would be a little worried about what that might have done to his body.But I would take him if he droped to the 3rd not sure teh 2nd round

by Brownsfan4ever on Dec 7, 2009 2:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i’d like to cj spiller fall to the 2nd, which probably won’t happen but you never know. he had 4 TDs and 300 all-purpose yards vs. GA tech. that’s insane.

by emily522 on Dec 7, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Obviously it’s just speculation but ESPN has Scouts, Inc. having him #9 right now.

One baseball game, he came to the plate and heard a woman in the crowd shout to the pitcher, "I'll make you a chocolate cake if you strike out that 'so-and-so'!" Says Strong: "I hit that ball out of the park. Then I looked at her like, 'Do I get a cake now?' "

by Villeslgr on Dec 7, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I know everyone wants Shu or Berry But I feel RB is more in need then a DT or FS

by Brownsfan4ever on Dec 7, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I am of the feeling that you never take a RB in the first round.

Just not worth it.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 7, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Another agree to disagree with us.But alot of the greats came out of the 1st round and the way are ground game looks I would only do it if there was a sure thing as of right no I would not but do think a RB is more a need then a DT or a FS is all.Hope we burn a 2nd a RB or I would even trade down for a extra 2nd round pick again and get a back in mid first.

by Brownsfan4ever on Dec 7, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I realize that a first rounder should be easier to find a great runner, but I am of the belief that with the amount of pounding a RB takes, they aren’t worth the price a team would have to pay, pick and money wise, for a RB. If the ground game needs improvement, draft a lineman and either pick a RB later or grab a FA.

Outside of Peterson, DeAngelo and CJ I can’t point to a RB in the first round since 2004 that I would consider a worthwhile choice.

Plus I would never, and I mean never, give a RB his second contract for big money.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 8, 2009 2:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would not be agenst a lineman with are first pick eather but think alot on here would flip out if we picked another lineman this year.

by Brownsfan4ever on Dec 8, 2009 3:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Any lineman is not worth it when we already have Thomas, IMO. RTs are easier to find.

by rufio on Dec 8, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I really don’t think taking a RB is that big of a deal in the late 1st round. Addai was probably worth it. Where you are drafting in the 1st matters a lot. Adding a first round RB who can play at a high level for about 6-8 years is worth it when you are already good enough to be picking late.

The fact that we are picking so high makes RB even less worth it, unless there is a Tomlinson or Peterson out there. I don’t know if I see one who has declared.

I don’t think DeAngelo is worth a top 15 pick.

by rufio on Dec 8, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Even as a late first rounder, I don’t think the value is there.

I think Addai is junk. Donald Brown is already a much better back. (Yes I understand that Brown is also a 1st rounder).

Yes, I would be passing on the Petersons and CJs, but RB is the shortest career path, and I would rather have my first rounders be able to play for 10+ seasons. Personal preferance.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 8, 2009 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Addai has been great this season.

by Roger Dorn on Dec 8, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No way.

He is averaging 3.7 YPC, never has broken 100 yards in the past 17 games (going back to last season obviously). His two longest carries of the season are 21 and 15! That is Jamal Lewis like.

He is still pretty solid at catching the ball out of the backfield though (43 catches).

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 9, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea, I was incorporating his ability as a checkdown back and receiver, at which he has been fantastic.

Despite his average yds/carry, he has 9 rushing TDs and only 180 carries.

by Roger Dorn on Dec 9, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Is Browns YPC better, or can the Colts just not really run the ball well?

by rufio on Dec 9, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Brown’s

by rufio on Dec 9, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Brown is averaging 4.5 YPC behind the worst run blocking team in the NFL.

He has been stopped for loss only four times while Addai has been tackled for a loss 21 times this season. Granted Addai has more carries (181 compared to 59 for Brown) but Addai just seems soft to me.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 9, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My point is really not that Addai and/or Brown are great, just that they are valuable to the Colts. They don’t need great “carry the team on your back” backs, they need versatile, intelligent backs who can catch the ball, pass block, and read defensive fronts.

Also that a 1st round pick for the Colts really isn’t that big of a deal because they already have very good players at just about every position. Do they need Brown to become a pro bowler? No, because they already have Addai. But they have the luxury of being able to do that. Not to mention the cap implications of missing there vs. where we will be picking.

Also, they can deal with short careers from their first rounders, because they already have everything in place. If they were taking RBs before having Peyton and Freeney, a solid Oline and good WRs in place, they’d be in trouble.

We can’t do the same things they can. Thomas over Peterson was the right pick because we’d be wasting half of Peterson’s career getting a solid team around him. Once we get that solid core, then I think it is fine to think about backs in the first.

by rufio on Dec 8, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I understand what you are saying.

But I think the Colts would be better off drafting an offensive lineman or defensive lineman with that pick. They have shown the ability to find good skill players late in the draft (I am sure that Peyton is about 90% responsible for that). Maybe they can skip drafting O-Lineman early in the draft because Manning is so freaking skilled at passing the ball that pass rush is rarely an issue. But maybe the lack of first round lineman is the reason that they have been unable to run the ball the last couple of seasons?

I mean what other team on earth can survive with a 4th, 2nd, 6th rounders and two guys who weren’t even drafted as your starting offensive line? I’m not saying that draft position tells the whole story, but c’mon. Without Peyton, that would probably be one of the five worst O-Lines in the NFL.

I am not saying that one way is right over the other, I just personally think that a first round pick on a RB is a waste. I just looked it up, the last offensive lineman the Colts took with a number 1 was Tarik Glenn in 1997. Wow.

by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 9, 2009 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn’t say never, but I wouldn’t draft a RB in the top 10 unless he was really, really special (Adrian Peterson). Definitely not #1 overall. They just have too short of a career to be worth the pick and the money, even if they are great.

But there is no way we’re taking a RB with our #1 pick this year.

by Buckeye Brad on Dec 7, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would not say we wont think if we dont get in the top 2 then we might try to trade down and that would be the only way I see us picking a RB in the first round.But this draft seems to be loaded with QB’s and RB that getting on in the 2nd might not be to bad for us as well.

I don’t mind what we get just as long as the player is going to be something we need to fill one of the many holes on this team.

by Brownsfan4ever on Dec 8, 2009 1:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would totally be in for a 2nd round RB.

by rufio on Dec 8, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What do you all think about Montario Hardesty? He has been awesome for Tennessee this year and could be available in the third

by TheRealSlimShady on Dec 8, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would love to see him in pass blocking drills. I haven’t seen a whole lot of him but that seems to be one of the biggest knocks on him.

I think he’s going to have to be able to be effective in the passing game at his size. I am not sure he would ever be capable of being our bell cow back, but there are some things I really like about his running style.

by rufio on Dec 8, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I want to know what you think about Syd’Quan Thompson.

by rufio on Dec 8, 2009 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I really don’t like him as a prospect. When I watch him, I see ZERO game speed and no closing speed at all. He will get beat about any time he is put in man-to-man

by TheRealSlimShady on Dec 10, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Are you being sarcastic?

by rufio on Dec 11, 2009 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

we have three decent running backs( harrison,jennings, and davis when he gets healthy) taking a running back with the first pick i dont believe would be a logical choice!

by findlaybrownslover on Dec 7, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I dont think any of them are decent backs but that is my opion.As I don’t think drafting a DL/DE a logical choice when are offense is in need of almost everything.

by Brownsfan4ever on Dec 8, 2009 3:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

so is our defense. when you’re drafting in the top five, you need to go best player available, because those are guys that should turn out to be pro bowlers, and you can’t just pass them up because you may have a more pressing need elsewhere

by notthatnoise on Dec 10, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well dammit lol

by emily522 on Dec 7, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

gerhart is monster, he has now been chosen as a heisman finalist, he also leads the nation in both yards( over 1700) and touchdowns( 27 i think), but he also has as good a set of hands to catch the ball out of the backfield as spiller, now that he is a heisman finalist i do not see him slipping to the second round. someone like new england will probably pick him up in the first round.i know spiller is good but he wont make it out of the top ten and i dont think gerhart will make it out of top twenty.i for one am against the browns taking a quaterback in the first round, too many good ones in the draft to choose later, i do believe suh will be gone before our pick, best choice from there is eric berry, our backfield really could use some help, and with him being able to play either safety positionor cornerback if needed, is to much talent to pass up!

by findlaybrownslover on Dec 7, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He now holds every single record for Stanford running backs. The previous record holder was ‘Touchdown’ Tommy Vardell.

The last white running back to rush for a thousand yards in the NFL? Craig James. 23 years ago.

Maybe Gerhardt is the second coming of John Riggins, but clearly, the deck is stacked against him. I’d be comfortable grabbing him if he were still there in round three, but prior to that? I don’t know… I think absolute best case scenario, he’s a fullback/goal line back.

by golanbatrac on Dec 10, 2009 1:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A lot for me will depend on his 40 time before I decide on what I think.

by Roger Dorn on Dec 10, 2009 8:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, a good 40 time would help.

by golanbatrac on Dec 10, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

someone who can torch USC and oregon for over 200 yards has got to be fast enough to play tailback

by notthatnoise on Dec 10, 2009 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I feel like our line is doing an adequate job, one that would get an average RB 4.0ypc.

Lewis being done is hurting us.

Also, we have run a bunch of poorly coached and poorly schemed runs. How does Cribbs not know who to block on our run to the left where he blocks down on the line and Thomas pulls out? Why do we have Lewis running that play instead of any other RB? We run in obvious situations. We don’t have a bread-and-butter run. Why do we allow our QB to check to an opposite side run against an 8 man front, but not to a pass? Why are we putting Fraley in at TE without being able to win against an 8 man front and checking to passes?

Of the coaching, RB, and OLine, I blame the OL the least.

by rufio on Dec 6, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs