Joe J. released and more Jets looking to sign
by bellar on Mar 11, 2009 8:48 PM EDT
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I guess our questions about JJ are finally answered...does anyone think Crabtree is a more viable option at 5 now?
Additionally, why do we continue to sign below average players that have barely made a name for themselves, from a team that didn't make the playoffs? I wonder if Al Toon and Mark Gastineau will come out of retirement and sign.
AHHHHH, this is frustrating time to be a Browns fan, I see NO direction coming from this organization!!!!!
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Joe... Jurevicious?
that really sucks. i loved that guy soo much
im not impressed with your performance
by troy145 on Mar 11, 2009 9:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Read it on Yahoo, yeah it does suck, but so did the Staph infection craze in the Clinic.
Joe was tough as nails, I like to get the reason why. Was Joe owed any bonus money?
Geez one guy you would like to keep around.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Mar 11, 2009 9:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Crabtree has always been a viable option at 5. He is still risky simply because he plays WR. I have always counted him in the top 5 most talented in this draft since he declared.
The direction of this franchise is “rebuilding, so lets sign cheap backups who can fill in if we can’t find young impact players in one offseason. We have too much money invested in the team right now and there are too few impact guys in free agency to bother looking for permanent solutions”.
by rufio on Mar 12, 2009 1:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Crabtree will not help us win games with a defense that can’t stop an ant.
We need defense!! 2 of the top Defenses in the NFL is in our division. We gotta take one of those 2 spots.
As for old jets players.. what was there record last year? what was ours? They might not have made it to the playoffs but at least they had a winning season.. and missed it by only a game.
Think our old Defense is better then what were pulling out of the Jets old team? I think not! You got to start some were. Get a few guys that are solid then add your superstars once they jell..
The high flying pass throwing days are over.. get ready for Smash Mouth Cleveland football again!! We need to get back to our roots
by Locnar on Mar 12, 2009 9:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about? Do you really think we can win games with no good recievers? This isn’t the 1920’s. We need both offense and defense, but to say let’s get rid of our best recievers and run the ball every down is ridiculous (especially considering we don’t have a great RB).
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 12, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A solid Defense wins you games, sorry to break the news to you.
by CTWN4LIFE on Mar 12, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s this type of insightful observation that really brings this site to life…
a solid defense and division 3-level offense will not win any games. that’s brad’s point. we need to build both sides of the ball, and since you can’t do that in a single offseason, dumping capable pieces (edwards), and avoiding selecting their replacements (crabtree), that we already have simply b/c we don’t like them digs our hole even deeper.
by DontCallMeJoey on Mar 12, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Titans last year. 0 above average receiving options
by Roger Dorn on Mar 12, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and yes, the Titans of last year are the type of team I would love to root for
by Roger Dorn on Mar 12, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and i would argue that it was that lack of real receiving options that doomed the titans in the playoffs. as well, they will likely be looking hard to add to the receiving corps to make the “next step”. i realize we need to walk before we run, and make the playoffs first, but the point remains.
bo scaife is an above-average TE.
by DontCallMeJoey on Mar 12, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue the loss in the playoffs was two-fold
1. Chris Johnson getting hurt in the first half
2. Crucial fumbles in the red zone
and they still almost won
Scaife is good, but does not exactly strike fear in the heart of defenses as a pass catcher
by Roger Dorn on Mar 12, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. exactly. no other weapons (receivers) to fall back on once johnson went down.
2. that is true. and if memory serves it was a pass-catcher (crumpler?) who dropped one of those balls on the 1 yard line.
i think scaife is slept on b/c they haven’t had anything resembling a pass game since mcnair left. he’s good, and the one guy other defenses, i would think, assume they have to stop through the air.
by DontCallMeJoey on Mar 12, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Their TE(s?) is(are?) also a good reciever(s?) and Chris Johnson can catch the ball, too.
They had the best regular season record and then got beaten by the Ravens in their first playoff game because they are not a complete and well-balanced football team.
Kerry Collins had the high passing yardage of the game and Gage had the highest receiving yards but it didn’t get them the win because they didn’t have many viable passing options or a true #1 reciever. Baltimore knew the key to beating the Titans was stopping the run, and they did just that. Tennessee passed the ball 42 times and couldn’t win the game. Gotta have balance. Whatever one thing you want to take away as a defense, fine, we can score in other ways.
Arizona and pittsburgh have pretty good passing games. Arizona’s defense was inconsistent at best last year, and they won with Warner, Bolden and Fitz. If not for a ludicrous catch, they win that game without a dominant D or running game. The Colts just won a few years ago built around Peyton and that passing game with an average defense, didn’t they?
And furthermore, not that anyone here has said the opposite, but the only defenses that have been able to really win playoff games are very complex, intricate, and versatile—if not also aggressive. Bend-don’t-break has not worked lately, even when you have the Titans’ or the Vikings defensive players. When it has worked (Colts) it has been because the offense carried the team.
by rufio on Mar 12, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really agree with your analysis. The Titans outplayed the Ravens the whole game, and I think would have won if Chris Johnson didn’t get hurt in the first half. While he is a good pass catcher, this was not what we were debating. We were debating if it is possible to win with sub-par wide receivers. The Titans are proof that you can, unless you feel that Justin Gage is above average. I like Justin Gage a lot to as a Missouri fan, but he is a below average wide receiver
by Roger Dorn on Mar 12, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it is possible to win with sub-par recievers. It is possible to win with sub-par players at any position. No team in the NFL is great in every aspect of the game. The Ravens won a Super Bowl with a crappy QB. The Patriots won 2 Super Bowls without any good RB’s (I think Dillon was there for the last one, right?). The Rams won a Super Bowl with a below-average defense and a great offense. So, you’re right, teams can with with sub-par recievers.
But if we trade Braylon, who is left? Stallworth is not dependable, and even when healthy he’s barely better than Justin Gage. Who else is left?? Stallworth and Hubbard? Cribbs (who shouldn’t be starting b/c he’s too valuable in special teams)? Of course we can draft Crabtree or someone else in the 2nd round, but do you really want to count on a rookie to lead our recieving corps? Teams will not respect our passing game at all. You cannot be that one-dimensional in the NFL. The Titans may have below-average WR, but Kerry Collins still threw for over 2600 yards in basically 14 games.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 12, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only point I have made about Braylon is that if he does not want to extend with the team, that we should consider trading him. I actually think he is incredible and would love to see him on the team for the rest of his career
by Roger Dorn on Mar 13, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Johnson being hurt took away one of the Titans’ better pass catchers. He might not be a wide receiver on the depth chart, but he can help the passing game and move the ball against a defense keyed heavily on the run. My argument is that because he was hurt in the first half and Tennessee didn’t really have anyone stellar to catch the ball, they could not win the game. They lost their versatility on offense.
Without Johnson, Tennessee had one field goal’s worth of points for the entire game. Baltimore knew they had to take him away one way or another and did. Tennessee had no other viable offensive options, which was the problem.
You can win a TON of regular season games with sub-par receivers. But you can’t get deep in the playoffs without at least a solid passing game; be that via WRs like Arizona or Indy, or through having a multitude of solid-at-worst pass catching options at RB, TE, and WR like New England or San Diego. I bet a lot of those teams who don’t have stellar WRs who get in the playoffs at least have running backs or tight ends who can catch the ball.
Right now, our two best pass catching options are Edwards and probably Jerome Harrison. Stallworth might be average if he can stay healthy (a big if), Heiden is probably average at best as a pass catcher, and everyone from there down is not only “sub par” but terrible with the exception of Rucker, who might work out. If I were a DC going against that team, I would say stop the run, and look out for Harrison in the passing game. If anyone else can step up and beat us I can live with that.
Even if you were able to trade Braylon for Demarcus Ware, Troy Polamalu, Champ Bailey, and Patrick Willis, the Browns couldn’t win in the playoffs without adding at least one above average pass catcher. It wouldn’t have to be a wide receiver, but it would have to be a pass catcher. We wouldn’t have either.
by rufio on Mar 13, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, but with if Johnson doesn’t get hurt? I think Tennessee wins that game and thus makes the AFC championship with subpar receivers which has been my point the whole time. I am not talking about passing game, or receiving backs, I am only talking about the ability to win with subpar receivers
by Roger Dorn on Mar 13, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they might have still had a dangerous pass catcher who adds versatility to the offense.
Correct, you don’t need “wide receivers” but you do need someone to catch the ball who can move the chains through the air and a 2nd option that is dangerous enough that if the D takes away your 1st option you can still score.
So I agree that wide receiver proper is not a position where you need a stud—it helps, though—but you need at least several solid options in the passing game. But Brad said you can’t win games with no good receivers, which I took to mean “pass catchers”.
Regardless, trading Braylon at this very moment would be dumb unless someone made us an offer we couldn’t refuse. We don’t have many people left who can catch the ball.
by rufio on Mar 13, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are your feelings on trading Braylon if he indicates he has no intention of signing an extension?
by Roger Dorn on Mar 13, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We would have to get a great deal in return, as in the value we would have gotten prior to him dropping 9million balls last year. I don’t think there is a GM crazy enough to give me what I would want, something like a first and two seconds or a 1 2 and 3.
If he has no intention of signing an extension now, then we wait until next year. If he starts playing well again, we can either trade him for what he is actually worth prior to week 6, or we can offer him another extension when he is happy and people are cheering him and the team is looking like it might have success.
If we look terrible and he is still dropping balls, we offer him and try to sell him on the fact that we believe he is just still in a slump and is a great player and have confidence in him even when he isn’t playing his best.
If he still doesn’t want to sign, we franchise him after the season and then look to trade him. That gives us a whole extra calendar year to get WRs in the draft, develop them, get FA wideouts, and other viable pass catchers. I am willing to hinge a huge gamble that his trade stock won’t dip below where it is now in that period of time.
by rufio on Mar 13, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think if this team turns around and starts playing well again, and Braylon develops good chemistry with Brady Quinn, then he might want to stay in Cleveland. I know that a lot of fans are upset at his rant about OSU fans not liking him, but I think he was just frustrated from his bad season. Things can turn around quickly in the NFL.
I do see what you’re saying about not wanting to let him leave with no compensation. I don’t know exactly how the franchise tag works, but as rufio said we can use that to either keep him or trade him for draft picks. But I don’t want to trade him now when we have no suitable replacements on this team. Our “pass-catching” corps (recievers and TE) would be severly lacking in talent without him.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 13, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do think the franchise tag should be applied if he bounces back some, and I think it would be the best scenario unless we get a mammoth offer this offseason
by Roger Dorn on Mar 13, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As rufio said, we don’t have anyone who can catch the ball consistantly (outside of Edwards) no matther what position they play. If we still had Winslow then he would be a recieving threat even if he plays TE. And we don’t have running backs who catch the ball (besides Harrison who doesn’t play much). So it’s not about have good wide recievers, it’s about having good recieving threats, period.
If we trade Braylon then we’d have no viable recieving threats, and you cannot have a productive offense that way.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 13, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, you really want to build a team with no good recievers? That’s your goal??
By the way, they had two great running backs. We have zero.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 12, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You cannot have long-term success in the NFL without a balanced offense. You just cannot. Unless you have an excellent defense like the Ravens of a few years ago, but we’re nowhere close to that.
I know people love talking about playing smash-mouth, hard-nosed football focuse on good defense and running the football. That’s what “tough” fans in Cleveland are suppose to like. I get the stereotype. But the history of the NFL over the past three decades has shown that you need a balanced offense to win. You need recieving threats to keep the defense honest and off-balance, otherwise they’ll load the box against the run. You can’t trade all your recievers and say we’re going to win with defense, because our offense will be terrible and even the best defense can’t win a game by itself.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 12, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Straw man. You are trying to talk in absolutes. I am making a point that it is possible to win with below average receivers. I would argue the Titans have the worst receiving corps in the league and they finished with the best record in the NFL.
Given the choice, I would like to have good WRs. but there is a case for building the defense
by Roger Dorn on Mar 12, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To elaborate: your original question was
Do you really think we can win games with no good recievers?
The answer is most certainly, yes, I think we can win games with no good receivers. Not in our current state as a team, but if we build a team with a good defense and a solid running attack, then the answer is yes
by Roger Dorn on Mar 12, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i believe you are overstating it when you say the Titans have the worst receivers in the league. i think brandon jones and gage are capable (certainly not top half, but capable) enough to keep them out of the cellar. but they are not above average, that is for sure.
however, i do agree with you that it is possible to win games w/o good receivers. this is why i am in favor of a deal involving edwards IF it gets us a shot at 2 or more impact players. but, people who suggest that we should “dump” edwards or avoid crabtree b/c other teams have won w/o great receivers is silly.
by DontCallMeJoey on Mar 12, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am an advocate of building a stellar defense, but if Crabtree is the only pick that makes sense at 5, then I would not be upset about drafting him.
I also would not be upset about trading Braylon if its clear to management that he is not going to sign an extension
by Roger Dorn on Mar 12, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You still have to have good receivers. You might not need great receivers, but you need good ones. Even in the pre-Moss New England teams, David Givens, Deion Branch, and Troy Brown were still good players, and they had Kevin Faulk and their TE who could catch, too.
None of those were world-beaters or in Edwards’ class, but they were good, solid, dependable players.
by rufio on Mar 12, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be the voice of reason…..will Joe be missed? Yes! Not because he was the best reciever, but because he did his job. In a day where everyone is crying about getting more money. He flat out did his Job. Unfortunately, Joe did not do his job last year. (not saying it was his fault) but when you are paying a product to preform and it doesn’t, you get rid of it. I read an article that said this would not have been a huge deal if he was not from the area….I must say that i agree
by DaMessenger on Mar 12, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What? A lot of players “do their job” and don’t complain about money, but that doesn’t make them good football players. The NFL is a tough place — if you can’t get the job done then they’ll find someone else who can. I’m sorry that Joe got injured and he wasn’t able to complete his deal here with the Browns, but with all the surgeries he’s had they must have decided that he wasn’t going to be a viable reciever any more. You don’t keep a guy on the team because he “does his job”, whatever that means.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 12, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is this in reply to me in this spot?
Sure Joe did his job, and when you are injured in the NFL your job is to get as healthy as possible as soon as possible. Maybe he did that, maybe he didn’t. Could he have been healthy and been the same stable and reliable pass catcher that he always was in this coming season? Apparently no one in the front office thinks so, but I would have loved to see him try.
Still, this has nothing to do with needing solid pass catchers to win football games (directly) and is disputably the self-appointed “voice of reason”
by rufio on Mar 13, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What did Branch and Givens do once they left the Pats though? Are we sure that Tom Brady didn’t make these guys look good?
by Roger Dorn on Mar 12, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Browns don’t have Tom Brady.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 12, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am aware. I was just trying to say those WRs aren’t that impressive
by Roger Dorn on Mar 13, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They caught enough Tom Brady passes to get him into the status of being one of the top 2 QBs in the NFL. The offensive system played a role, the defensive system played a role, signal stealing probably played a role, but when it came down to it, they caught the ball.
That’s all I am saying; one of them was going to get open on any given play, and when it was thrown to them they caught it. That is my definition of an good-but-not-great/solid/dependable pass catcher. You might not need Fitz or Andre Johnson but you need guys who catch it when you throw it to them.
by rufio on Mar 13, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So stupid. The only guy who gave his all every game. Just when I was starting to like Mangini. I hope this comes back to haunt him.
Josh Cribbs for the Hall of Fame!
by kardiackids2007 on Mar 12, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
so you’re saying that you’d like to see negative repercussions for our coach (which probably means our football team) b/c he cut a player? now that, i would say, is what is “so stupid”. (i’m saying the sentiment is stupid, not you personally).
by DontCallMeJoey on Mar 12, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so civil and respectful lately. you’re nothing like Joseph.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
by kwoog on Mar 12, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Offense and Defense go hand in hand. Do you guys truly think we’ll be good this year and win a lot? I don’t. I can live with us not focusing on the Offense at all with our first 3 picks. I’d much rather see us go after the Defense with all 3 picks. This won’t be an overnight fix. A good D, will keep you in a game. You may not win but, you’ll be in the game to the end. I’d much rather see us focus on that before trying to get the offense potent. BTW, we still have Braylon Edwards, the guy had a bad year but in 07 we were all deeming him the 2nd best WR in the game, just saying.A good D and solid special teams can go along way.
by CTWN4LIFE on Mar 12, 2009 11:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would love to see defense with the first 3 picks, particularly if Aaron Curry is still available at #5 overall by some miracle. But if the situation calls for it and the far and away best player available is an offensive player (who isn’t a QB or LT), I say we should take him. I don’t think anyone was talking about going O with the first 3 picks.
With just one pass rushing OLB and an aggressive DC, this defense could be really good. Add another LB and either a SS or a RDE and I might actually be able to get excited about it.
by rufio on Mar 13, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya, I think another DE is deff needed. I’ve been saying go after Maola with the pick we got from TB. He could plug in at DE and be fine. If Curry isn’t there at 5 and we have to sit on the pick, I’d hope that B.J Raji is there. If not, why not take an OT? Especially, after the release of Shaffer. I’m just hoping we grab Matthews in the 2nd and a RB in the 4th. Arion Foster could be had in the 4th and I think he has potential.
by CTWN4LIFE on Mar 13, 2009 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RTs can be had much later in the draft than 5. it would be certifiably insane to take another top-5 OT.
by DontCallMeJoey on Mar 13, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don’t think RTs are worth the amount of money we would pay to someone at that pick, and that you can find them later in the draft. LTs are, because 300+lb ballerinas who have quick feet are very rare.
Really if we don’t get Curry, Raji, Crabtree, or Orakpo or maybe Maybin with the 5th pick I don’t think I will understand ManKok’s line of thinking. If we trade down, great.
by rufio on Mar 13, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There looks to be a ton of RT’s late in this draft. A Phil Loadholt could be had in the 2nd or 3rd round.
I still think the best value at 5 is a trade down or Crabtree…
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 13, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Loadholt but have no idea if he is quick enough to play OT. Defenses will find a way to make him get out wide to block little 240lb fast LBs if he is out there. If he can do that as big as he is, I would love to draft him as a RT. I am pretty convinced he could play RG either way.
by rufio on Mar 13, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He seemed to move pretty well as a LT this year. I really only watched him 4 or 5 times this year. He seemed to do pretty well with UF’s speed rushers. OU has him down for 104 pancakes in 740 plays this year. I just think that he would be an awesome road clearing RT.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 13, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no question he can clear some roads. The man is enormous.
I love it if we can get him in the 2nd round, particularly with the 2nd of our two picks. There are so many players I would love to pick with the first three picks…
by rufio on Mar 14, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe J
Staph Infection ruins another solid player (too bad for Joe J). I dont want Crabtree st #5 overall, but give me Robiskie with that 50th pick.
Chris Woodrow
by browndawg23 on Mar 15, 2009 10:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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