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Around SBN: Explaining Jeremy Lin's Early, Surprising Success

Our D-Line

Just curious, but why are our Defensive so big? I know that D-lineman are usually larger in a 3-4 but I checked out some other teams depth charts that run a 3-4 and there lineman are smaller. Their Defensive ends are close to 300 and some are below that. Is this one reason for our lack of pass rush? With Ryan as the new defensive coordinator will our line look any different? 

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I wish the line would look different ( and lighter). That’s a tough task to accomplish in one offseason. Was our previous mangement dumb or high when they put that line together?

Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder

by jerseywahoo on Apr 8, 2009 7:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Pass rush in a 3-4 is highly reliant on the linebackers. The lack of a pass rush from the Browns defense is a result of poor linebacker play. The defensive line in a 3-4 is generally asked to play a two gap scheme (engaging two offensive linemen and “clogging” two gaps) for the majority of the game. Typically, the defensive line will have a 0 technique (NT) and two DE’s head up on a tackle ( either a 5 tech or 6 tech depending on the nomenclature used.) Their job is to be as physical and immovable as possible.

Personally, I was very pleased with the line all year long. They are very talented, but they will look much better once you get some guys who can clean up behind them.

by gahnki on Apr 8, 2009 9:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I think the line will be very solid this year. Shuan Rogers will be great (again), and if Corey Williams and Robaire Smith can come back and play at their previous level, that’d be awesome. Then you have a good versitaile backup in Shuan Smith and a another good backup in CJ Mosely, plus maybe a draft pick or even Ahtyba Rubin if he builds from last year, the line could be awesome. Although it just as easily could be as bad as 2007.

Josh Cribbs for the Hall of Fame!

by kardiackids2007 on Apr 8, 2009 10:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Our D line was so big because Romeo used a 2-gap scheme. As Ghanki says, this means they were basically used to “clog” gaps between OL, occupy blockers, and do other dirty work. All of that is basically strength-based work. To get stronger, players need to consume more calories than they expend (to add muscle mass). Our DL seemed to be very good at that part.

In Romeo’s 3-4, you want your DL to be as big as they can get so that they are as strong as they can get. Some believe that even just adding weight (fat) will be good for 2-gap linemen because if they get another 10 lbs on, that’s another 10 lbs the OL has to try to push around. In the trenches, just that extra 10 lbs leaning on an OL can be the difference between the offense getting that 2 inches on 4th and short or stopping the offense for a turnover.

I think letting the DL put on as much bad weight (fat) as it did last year really hurt us. Clearly, Rogers can play at whatever weight he was at last year and be very effective. Corey Williams was particularly hurt by his added weight, I thought. Surplus fat hurts a player’s speed. I think that one of the strengths of the 3-4 is its versatility. As our DL lost quickness, we lost the ability to be versatile and became extremely predictable. Its takes an immaculate amount of talent in the NFL to run only a few things (to be predictable) on defense and still be any good.

Still, its hard to tell how much of our DL looking slow was the weight, and how much was Romeo’s philosophy, which was quite literally to read and react. Some of our DL looked like they didn’t “read” too well, while some looked slow to “react”. Regardless of the DL play, the LBs were much, much worse last year.

At this point, its just wishful thinking, but I believe Rob Ryan will become much more aggressive with our D line, playing more of an attacking, “one-gap” scheme out of a 3-4 front. This is typically what people think of when they say a “4-3” defense: linemen have one gap they need to control—one space between two offensive linemen—and they look to “shoot” that gap (run through it en route to the QB or RB) right off the snap. This means instead of “reading and reacting” that the defense tries to make the first move.

This is considered to be more Rob Ryan’s style (think of his brother Rex, who was the Ravens DC last year), while Mangini has ties to Romeo’s style of the 3-4. I don’t know how much control Mangini is willing to give to Ryan or how much our defense will be a mixture of the two styles.

I think the best coaches are able to use the X’s and O’s to maximize the production of their talent, wherever it may be. For us, that means using the relative talent of our DL to mask our lack of talent in the LB corps. It also means confusing an offense and being an intelligent defense in terms of play design and scheme because our individual players will not be bigger, stronger, faster than the opposing offense every Sunday: make the offense think to slow them down.

To me, that means getting the DL’s weight down a little bit, but more importantly getting them in shape, and turning them loose to rush the passer sometimes.

by rufio on Apr 8, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions  

this is a really useful analysis; thanks.

by drjeo on Apr 9, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is a huge complaint i have about Romeo: he tried to make players fit in his ideal scheme, not create a variant of that ideal scheme around his players. I understand having a specific philosophy, but when you’re only 4 years into a program you can make concessions to your rigid dogma based on your actual personnel.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Apr 9, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

you should have

big fat meaty beast like DTs to stop the run up the middle and decent sized quick DEs to get penetration and help close gap to the sidelines. i think we should go back to the 4-3 defensive scheme puttind Shaun Smith in at tackle with rogers, move wimbly back on the line and find his replacement, or draft an end. that leaves jackson alone at starting ILB. but that will never happen. but this would solve the LB problem if we can’t get Currey. oh and our D-line is so big because romeo didnt want to be fattest guy around the place.

GO BROWNS!!!

by charliefryfanhaha on Apr 9, 2009 12:16 AM EDT reply actions  

We literally don’t have a single 4-3 defensive end on the roster.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Apr 9, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some would say Wimbley is a 4-3 end, since his only real success was his last year in school in that scheme

by Roger Dorn on Apr 9, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

And corey williams was a good 4-3 DT

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Apr 9, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alex Hall was a DE, and Wimbley was too, but that doesn’t mean they’d be good there in the NFL—or even better DEs than they are OLBs right now.

Really, the boost we could get by switching to the “4-3” would be Williams at DT. The 4-3/3-4 discussion is kinda pointless anyway, since it only involves whose hand is on the ground and whose isn’t. Every 3-4 team has packages with 4 down linemen, like our nickel package last year. You can still one-gap out of a 3-4 like the Cowboys, Chargers, sometimes Ravens, etc. I honestly think doing that would help all of the players look better (Williams, especially), except Rogers who already looks ridiculous.

Williams didn’t look worth a 2nd round pick last year because of what he was asked to do within the defensive scheme, not how many people’s hands were on the ground next to him. He also looked bad because of injury.

Wimbley is actually really good in coverage for a rush OLB, so putting his hand on the ground could take away a lot of the flexibility and versatility we could have on defense. If we did have him put his hand on the ground, we should run a lot of Eagles/Giants stuff where he drops in to coverage on a zone blitz. If we didn’t stop the run with blitzes (Eagles, Giants) or by using some variation of the Tampa-2 (Indy, TB), then Wimbley and Hall would be too small/weak to stop the run.

by rufio on Apr 9, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea i no i was just pointing out that they were DEs, not that they would be better at playing that position. I would like to see hall get some playing time this year, though because he started off last year great

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Apr 9, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’re not 4-3 DEs.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Apr 9, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

In college Danny Wuerffel was awesome.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Apr 9, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

IM NOT SAYING THEY SHOULD PLAY DE ALL I SAID WAS THAT THEY WERE IN COLLEGE. THATS ALL I SAID. THEY WILL BOTH BE OLBS FOR THEIR NFL CAREERS. NOW GET OFF MY BACK!

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Apr 9, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Relax, kid. If they’re both going to be OLB’s in the NFL, who cares what they played in college?

by Buckeye Brad on Apr 9, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. If you put either Wimbley or Hall on a 3-4 team right now, I think they’d still line up at LB.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Apr 9, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I meant, “on a 4-3 team right now”

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Apr 9, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, I wasn’t getting on your back, just having a conversation. Sorry you took it as snarky or whatever, didn’t mean it that way.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Apr 9, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Wimbley is too small to be a 4-3 DE. Same for Hall. To transition back to a 4-3 I believe we’d have to acquire no less than 3 true DE (guys like Jared Allen’s size).

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Apr 9, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

4-3 is a moot point

They are going to run a 3-4, so let’s not get too ahead of ourselves. The personel, as everyone has already pointed out, fits a 3-4 better and more importantly the staff has ties to the 3-4. The dominant player on our line (Big Baby) was revitalized in part by being in the 3-4, so we shouldn’t have him take a step back, we should build up the players around them.

Something being missed in the discussion is the offseason conditionaing program. I know it ruffled Big Baby’s feathers a bit, but if the big guys around him were not getting gassed he would be even more effective. The conditioning of the players last year was rediculous and improving that should help the productivity of the line. Remember we now have 3 strength and conditioning coaches!

The new attacking type of scheme that we may see this year (Thanks for the detail Rufio…now all we need is to see it implemented!) will actually play to the strengths of Williams. He was a penetrating force in the 4-3 but still responsible for containment. If he is asked to do a similar role, given his shoulder has to be 100%, he will fit the scheme better.

by blockersave93 on Apr 13, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do u all think of Senderrick marks

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Apr 9, 2009 4:59 PM EDT reply actions  

I wonder why his draft stock has fallen so much, but he looked to me like he could be a good DE in our scheme.

by rufio on Apr 9, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

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