Dawgs By Nature: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
New Blog: The Nova Blog for Villanova Fans!

Ask a Ravens Fan

Not trying to stir things up with our AFC North division rivals, but I thought it might be a good time to touch base with the teams we will be facing off against twice per year. I've already posted a similar FanPost over at Cincy Jungle, and a Steeler fan started this off by doing the same over at Baltimore Beatdown.

So what I'm here for is not to bash you, or even praise you. However, I am curious as to how the Browns fans feel their team has transitioned to the new leadership in the clubhouse as well as on the field. New coach, open QB competition, trading of a key player, perhaps another, and a very interesting draft last month to say the least.

Cleveland totally underwhelmed most fans after expecting to contend for the AFC North title in 2008 after just missing the post season in 2007. Which team do you all expect to be on the field in 2009, the '07 or '08 versions? How do you think you will do in the division, much less the rest of your schedule? Who will win the QB battle and with or without Braylon Edwards, your wide receiver corp seems to be pretty stacked?

So let this Ravens fan know your feelings about your team, and I guess mine as well as the others within the division. This could be interesting. Thanks.

1 recs  |  Comment 197 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Dawgs By Nature

Comments

Display:

Neither the 07 or 08 team will be on the field because we are much different.

Im thinking we will win 2 or 3 games in the division. For the whole season, im hoping for more but its realistic to expect 7 or 8 wins.

Brady will be the guy and Brayon will stay.

Heres a question for u; who will be better between us and cincinatti

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 13, 2009 4:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You don't want to hear my opinion, but...

…you asked. I think the Bengals who were devastated by injuries will return to better form before the Browns will. Their nucleus of their passing game appears better ready to respond than the new Browns team that Mangini is trying to build. Just my opinion. Sorry.

Rexx

by Rexx on May 14, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Carson Palmer plays as well as he should and Chad Ocho Cinco plays like Chad Johnson, their passing game could indeed be dangerous.

by rufio on May 14, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

are you saying the browns didnt have injury problems last year?

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 14, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, the Browns were just as devestated by injuries as the Bengals were. We were on our 4th string QB by the end of the season.

by Buckeye Brad on May 14, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree, but...

..other than that Giants game, you were pretty awful with both DA and Brady. Quinn is by far the better QB and not too sure why mangenius is having an “open” competition.

Rexx

by Rexx on May 15, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think he is; he’s saying that in public, but I’ll bet Quinn has the job unless he’s completely awful in preseason.

by Buckeye Brad on May 15, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty awful only by wins and losses standard. Would you say the Browns were awful offensively when they posted a 17 point lead against the Ravens?

by Roger Dorn on May 15, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point.

It’s hard to pull everything together. You can have a great offense and still lose. Sometimes it’s hard to translate stats into wins. That was the Brown’s problem last season. The best teams are not solely defined their superstars (although, every team needs them). They’re known for their ability to find guys in the late rounds who can consistently step up and make a difference. Talent is important in football, but there is one lesson that I learned from the Browns struggles and the Ravens success last season… Talent alone doesn’t win games. Determination, execution and a solid system are much more important.

by BAL_Hawk on May 15, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, agreed. I have way more faith that Mangini can do this than Crennel

by Roger Dorn on May 15, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, Brady only played 2 games. We put up over 20 points in both those games

by Roger Dorn on May 15, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We were awful with Brady?

We were very close to beating the broncos and we beat the bills. I wouldnt say that is awful

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 15, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lost Housh though. Really not impressed by any of their other receivers. Ocho Cinco has to return to form, but he looked pretty awful last year

by Roger Dorn on May 14, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought they got some good prospects at WR in the recent past. They didn’t look great as rookies, but Jerome Simpson looked like a good prospect to me, Urrutia has freakish size, and Caldwell is pretty fast. If one of them really puts it together and the other two can be decent…Maybe I just think Carson Palmer is just really good.

The Bengals might still give up 30 points/game, though.

by rufio on May 15, 2009 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Might have lost TJ, but...

..signing L. Coles is not too much of a drop off. Chad may have had a down year, but the offensive line in Cincy was horrible, which had Carson flat on his back or running for his life rather than throwing to 85. If and a big if,the Bengals o-line improves only a little, that could be a huge difference.

Funny thing is they think their defense will be a top five, top ten at worst! Did you know their defense finished ranked #12? I didn’t either.

Rexx

by Rexx on May 15, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that’s pretty common knowledge. They’ve been drafting 1s on defense for about 5 years now.

In all honesty, I buy the Bengals hype. They’re definitely feast or famine, but this is a whopper of a division in my mind. I think any of the four teams could win a division or two in the NFC.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 15, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just don’t like their coaching staff. They better hope the O-line steps up or it will be more of the same

by Roger Dorn on May 15, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I totally agree. I have heard many experts praising the Bengals draft, but I’m not convinced. They are either going to be really good or really bad. They bet the farm on this draft class. If the Bengals were known for reforming players, I’d be more positive, but that is obviously not the case. The Bengals team seems to attract troubled players and criminals. I don’t see how bringing in players with off-field issues can help. Character needs to be a bigger priority.

Of course, they are very talented players, and they were cheap. I guess we will see.

by BAL_Hawk on May 15, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we disagree here. Housh is much better than Coles (at this point in his career)

by Roger Dorn on May 15, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah, he’s definately better.

by Buckeye Brad on May 15, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t follow that trade what did the Bengals get for Housh? Because unless I’m mistaken wasn’t Coles picked up through FA? Like I said I didn’t see it but I think cincy got the short end somewhere in this.

by tjk_doc on May 15, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or did Housh contract just run out? (Forgot to put in last post, sorry)

by tjk_doc on May 15, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was a free agent

by Roger Dorn on May 15, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Roger

by tjk_doc on May 15, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The reason I don’t buy the Bengals’ hype (if we can call it that at this point) is because I don’t think either of their lines are particularly good. Or even any good.

Andre Smith could be a dominating LT, or he could flake out. Other than him, I don’t really see a stud on their OL.

They don’t have a good pass rusher. They have a lot of talent in the back 7, but I don’t think they can capitalize on it without someone great in the front 4. Stats aside, I am not very afraid of their D.

by rufio on May 15, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And their leadership makes Crennel/Savage look like Pioli/Bellicheck. Their talent level only means so much. At the first sign of adversity, I can see the team falling apart… again.

by Ryan Kelsey on May 16, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Michael Johnson could be a pass rusher but his attitude sucks

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 16, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carson hasnt done anything since 06

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 15, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See Rexx, I knew you had it in you to be a civil poster. Please keep up the good will (as well as your brethren Malor – don’t encourage him to make another troll name, k?!) and you will get reasoned responses back.

In regards to your questions:

Which team do you all expect to be on the field in 2009, the ‘07 or ’08 versions? Offensively we shouldn’t look like either team. The 2007 version was a high scoring team with DA throwing to BE and KWII with Jamal being decent. The 2008 version tanked because of the BE dropsies and very little offensive innovation. The 2009 version should have BE closer to his 2007 version (we hope it was all mental) and the line has improved since last year, especially in the depth. I would expect more running formations with a better blocking TE in Royal and a shorter passing game than the homerun of previous years. I believe BQ will win the competition (although I expect that is more a smokescreen than anything else).

Defensively, we actually were better in 2008 than 2007 even if the numbers don’t reflect that. With the putrid offensive output the final 6 weeks, our defensive numbers took a major hit. Besides the new system for 2009 should be more of an attacking 3-4 rather than Crennel’s read and react 3-4. That alone should improve our defense. Am I expected a Pitt/Bal D this season? No way, but I believe we can get closer to average or perhaps a little better.

How do you think you will do in the division, much less the rest of your schedule?
I will agree with BQB, we should get 2-3 wins. Is this the year we actually beat Pitt? Doubtful, but who knows. We actually competed very well with them last year in the first game. I would expect to win minimum 1 game against Cincy (hopefully both) and we will have an ok shot at stealing one of the home games vs you or Pitt, but by no means a guarantee, For the first time in years, we don’t have 3 of our division games in the first 4-5 games of the season. That should benefit us somewhat. As for the rest of the schedule, it is much easier than last year, and we have enough talent to pull out 5-6 wins. If the new O/D schemes flourish, we could sneak up to 7-8 wins.

Who will win the QB battle and with or without Braylon Edwards, your wide receiver corp seems to be pretty stacked?
Answered that above. I believe BQ is already the starter, but they have named a competition to keep DA sharp and perhaps deal him in preaseason ot the first team that has a major QB injury. I think the WR corp will be improved from last year, but not as good as 2007. BE has to be better than 2008, but not as good as 2007 (although he has the talent to return there). Either Robiskie or Massaquoi will be ok as the slot, leaving Patten/Furrey as the #2, at least early in the season. I expect Rucker to have a ok year as the receiving TE, and Cribbs will get some time as a Slash WR/RB as well. I still think we will need another WR next season unless both Robo and Mass succeed.

by talonk on May 13, 2009 6:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I kinda disagree with your last paragraph. I would rather have Robiskie playing opposite Braylon and have Furrey in the slot. And it is hard to say Robo and MoMass need to be good THIS YEAR, because WRs usually need a few years to reach their potential. I actually think WR is one of the few positions we defineatly DONT need next year

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 13, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you note, my statement was that Patten/Furrey would open the season as the #2. I don’t expect Robo or Mass to open the season as the #2 as rookies, unless they absolutely explode in training camp. My guess is whichever one shows their talents faster, gets the #2 spot by week 5-6.

As for next seasons WR, my expectation is that one of Robo/Mass succeeds, the other doesnt, at least this year. The reason for that is that the odds are one of them will not pan out. Great if they both do, but I cant expect that. Which brings us to next season. If BE is dealt next offseason (distinct possibility), we will need another WR. Even if he doesn’t get dealt, and one of Robo/Mass flames out, we still only would have 2 WRs (I don’t count Furrey/Patten as long term options). So we have two scenarios where we need a WRs and one where we don’t. I’ll take the odds of 2 to1 at this point.

by talonk on May 13, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still wouldnt draft another receiever. If Massaquoi doesnt look great i would still give him one more year. And we also have Cribbs, Hubb, and Norwood, and there is a chance that one of them could be a good #3 guy

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 14, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really like Robiskie!

He is the closest thing to NFL ready and should be on the field for the first snap and be a solid possessin receiver with sneaky speed. Braylon has GOT to be better and you will have a decent offense if Jamal or someone can run. If not, be prepared for your o-line to work real hard to keep him off his back if he is constantly faced with third and longs.

Rexx

by Rexx on May 14, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jamal is my biggest worry for next year’s Browns. He looked slow last year

by Roger Dorn on May 14, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree. I think he is starting to lose the speed he once had. And at 29 it doesn’t look like he is gonna get it back. I just hope that Davis is the answer.

by tjk_doc on May 15, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whomever carries the rock

will determine how good your passing game is. If you can’t run, I feel fro your QB, no matter how good your o-line is. On the other hand, if they can run block good, anyone should be able to get yards. Just not the stutter-stepping Jamal, who us Ravens fans laugh at every time he touches the ball and did so his last year in Baltimore as well.

Rexx

by Rexx on May 15, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think we have a line that’s better constituted for running the ball this year, which makes up for a lot of shortcomings at RB.

by DontCallMeJoey on May 15, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point. We have acquired some players to try and patch up that pesky right side as well as added depth. Hopefully its as good on the field as it is on paper.

by tjk_doc on May 15, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep.

Please more unbalanced line, too. Running at Joe Thomas = good idea.

by rufio on May 15, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish we would take Selvin Young in the free agency. He would make our running game a lot better

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 15, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not sold on him. He looked good for Denver, but everyone looked good in that scheme.

by rufio on May 15, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he would be cheap and i wouldnt hurt us to have another RB

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 16, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never said he wouldn’t be worth a shot, I just think that assuming “he would make our running game a lot better” is a little far. I’d probably even take him over Noah Herron.

by rufio on May 16, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“I’d take him over Noah Herron”

I would take about anyone over him.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 16, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would nominate myself before Herron lol

by tjk_doc on May 18, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think we’ll look like either the 08 or the 07 teams. I think we will play closer to the 07 team’s talent level. I expect our defense to be better than 07, with our offense less explosive. My best guess is we will use a lot of spread offense sets and inside zone runs. Defensively, I have no idea. Mangini has used something similar to Romeo’s style of 3-4, Rob Ryan has wanted to be aggressive like his brother/your former DC.

7-8 wins. 2-3 in the division. We beat Cinci at home, and then have a shot to beat them on the road and/or steal one from you or the steelers. That’s my best guess if I had to make one.

We will miss Kellen, but if Robo or MoMass can get open, we won’t miss him for long. I expect our WRs to be much better than last year (but how could they get much worse?). But, I am not expecting either rookie to have a DeSean Jackson/Eddie Royal/Colston rookie season. Our OL is better, our TEs are worse, and our RBs are about the same. James Davis could surprise, or Mangini might actually play Jerome Harrison, but I am not holding my breath.

Quinn is the QB, Braylon stays in Cleveland.

Defensively, I think our DL gets better with a healthy Corey WIlliams and better chances of someone emerging at RDE because we have 3 guys who can play there. Our LBs can’t get much worse than they were last year. Our DBs probably get slightly better, because we might actually have a legit 3rd DB. Sean Jones will be missed, but he and Brodney Pool were only on the field at the same time for a few games last year.

Mangini butts heads with someone in training camp, but it blows over after a few weeks.

by rufio on May 13, 2009 7:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Will probably post something tomorrow, but wanted to thank you for a civil, non-incendiary fanpost

by Roger Dorn on May 14, 2009 2:05 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree. This is the kind of discussions that we want to have here, and I hope it contiues throughout the season.

by Buckeye Brad on May 14, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. This post has been very informative, and I have enjoyed reading your opinions. Hopefully, this is an olive branch.

by BAL_Hawk on May 15, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We shouldn’t have to thank a fellow poster for this, especially a site mod.

Resident Josh Freeman fan.

by gahnki on May 14, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Seriously. One civil post or not, he still advocated trolling on our site.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 14, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

There's my buddy, kwoog

nce to see and hear from you. looking forward to throwing verbal grenades w/ you and my guys this season, although hopefully we can keep it civilized and base it on facts instead of bs, right?

Rexx

by Rexx on May 14, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right. Hopefully Orange Helmets/Malor can as well.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 14, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

What’s worse Orange Helmats or purple jerseys?

by Roger Dorn on May 14, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no promises on him

I am not my brother’s keeper there. Sorry.

Rexx

by Rexx on May 15, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey i saw on the baltimore site that Malor is gonna make a new account. I cant stand him.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 17, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

 a new DBN account that is

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 17, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am sure whatever he contributes will be really hilarious. He should consider writing his own blog

by Roger Dorn on May 17, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it’s funny.

by BAL_Hawk on May 18, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

man i tried posting on balitimore beatdown and i was immediatley attacked by Ampallang, and i said nothing against your team. Stay classy baltimore

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 18, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry about that. They went out of their way to disagree with you, but I don’t think that they “attacked” you. I didn’t see any personal insults. When you post on a rival’s blog, you should expect resistance and tread lightly if you don’t want to be “attacked.” That’s a lesson that I’ve learned from my time here at DBN. Anyway… I can’t speak for everyone, but I enjoy having opposing opinions on our blog.

by BAL_Hawk on May 19, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you look at all of my comments on BB i never said anything negative about the ravens. You and Rexx cant say the same about posting about the browns on DBN

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 19, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We don’t expect you to say good or bad things about the Ravens. We just expect you to back up your statements when challenged. Steelers fans frequently visit our blog and trash the Ravens. We don’t mind it if they refrain from personal attacks. This should go for just about anyone on any blog.

Rexx (as far as I know) and I have never personally attacked anyone on this blog. We may hate the Browns, but we don’t hate Browns fans. I’d like to think that we respect your opinions but ardently reserve the right to disagree.

by BAL_Hawk on May 19, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is all a lot pretty talk. And it’s wholly meaningless when you then send your douche bag, 20 year old proxy (malor) over to make personal insults under an alias.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 11, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trolling is only funny to trolls.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 18, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He’s not doing any harm. I’d laugh if someone created a fake name for the Beatdown. We really can’t take ourselves too seriously on an internet blog. It’s suppose to be fun… right?

by BAL_Hawk on May 19, 2009 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He’s an asshole and he’s doing harm.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 19, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha! Are you serious? What harm?

by BAL_Hawk on May 19, 2009 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Intentionally (and incognito) lowering the level of respectful, thoughtful discourse on blog.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 19, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh please… Fine. I don’t need to argue this.

by BAL_Hawk on May 20, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m a pretty reasonable person and am willing to admit when something is funny. Mr Malor is not funny

by Roger Dorn on May 18, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In terms of funny;
Larry the Cable Guy movies> Malor

and that REALLY says a lot

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 18, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve never seen one, so I can’t form an opinion.

by Roger Dorn on May 18, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah...

….his arms aren’t as big as Larry’s. He’s a skinny little runt of a guy. Plays golf and watches porn online (same grip).

Just kidding (I think).

Rexx

by Rexx on May 19, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s disgusting!

by BAL_Hawk on May 19, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am just trying to make it a point that we will respond to comments and posts like these

by Roger Dorn on May 14, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It all depends on our mentality. Since we’ve been lackluster for the past decade or so we have to develop a winner’s mentality. That and we have to get tougher and more aggressive. Of our players can perform aggressively and actually believe they can beat anyone then we’ll possibly win a number of games. But if we play soft like we usually do then there is no hope.

by Rocland on May 14, 2009 10:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Can you explain what you mean by “a winner’s mentality”?

I usually think people are referring to things like toughness and aggressiveness, but you said we need a winner’s mentality and toughness and aggressiveness. Just curious as to what else you think goes in to that.

All indications are that Mangini will be tougher on the players, and that Kokutnus (sp?) is drafting tough players. I really hope that shows up on the field.

by rufio on May 14, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s an inside joke, Rexx.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 15, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and it’s actually “Kokinis.”

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 15, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This really, really doesn’t mean anything at all.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 14, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn’t depend on mentality, it depends on talent and scheme. The reason the Browns haven’t developed a “winner’s mentality” is because they haven’t won. And winning depends on how well the players play and the coached coach, not about “getting tougher and more aggressive.” That’s just a bunch of bullcrap that the media talks about but doesn’t mean a thing.

by Buckeye Brad on May 15, 2009 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Talent and scheme are the two most important factors in modern football, but football is extremely competitive. Where do you go from there? Every team has talent and a scheme that should work in theory. How do you separate yourself? How do you get players to consistently give 110 percent? If you say “professional pride will motivate them,” than every team would be equal since there are professional players on each team. It boils down to the mentality of the team. I don’t know if I’d call it a “winning mentality,” but I’d definitely call it a “team mentality.”

I’m talking about the mentality with which the team does everything… everything from drafting to practicing to playing. Why do you think that players who come from winning teams talk about the atmosphere and mentality of their former teams? When Willie Anderson signed with the Ravens, he talked about the difference in “mentality” between Cincy and Baltimore. It’s a tangible thing for the players. I’m convinced that “mentality” is the difference between good and bad organizations. It’s why average players will play hard for the Ravens and superstars will underachieve for the Cowboys.

What is this mentality? I think that each team has it’s own mentality, but I think that one trend in successful teams is toughness. I think that toughness is the most undervalued and undercoached attribute in modern players. I think that the successful teams draft tough guys. I don’t know everything that goes into building a successful team. I don’t claim to be an expert, but I have been around football long enough to see what is beneficial. As always… I’m open to other opinions.

by BAL_Hawk on May 15, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this. Call it mentality, call it attitude, whatever, but it does exist and it does make a difference. I’ve seen guys who were average performers at best suddenly turn into rising stars by a change in environment. Sometimes it was a matter of that guy going to a new division or a new command, sometimes a change in the leadership at his present command – leadership at any one of several levels.

The weird thing is, some of those guys thought they were doing well before the change. It wasn’t until they got into a new environment that they realized how much more they could do not just on their own, but with those around them as well.

So, yeah. Id say mentality is a big factor, with much of it derived from leadership.

by JustBob on May 15, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But all of that stuff about having a “winner’s mentality” is after-the-fact analysis. After a team has started winning, people look back and talk about the how great the leadership was and all that other stuff. You can’t just have a winner’s mentailty — that comes from a few years of winning, and winning comes from how you play on the field. Of course it takes the right attitude, but most players have the right attitude even on losing teams. They just aren’t as good as the players on winning teams. That’s the difference.

I’ve seen guys who were average performers at best suddenly turn into rising stars by a change in environment.

Two things about that statement:
1. This doesn’t happen very often
2. When it does happen, it’s probably because the player goes in to a new situation where he’s surrounded by better players which make him look better or a scheme that fits his talents better

I’m sorry, but leadership and attitude and all that stuff just doesn’t turn a bad player in to a good player or a good player in to a great player. It’s about talent — you win football games with talent. Of course having the right attitude is important, and there are a few teams who fall apart because of lack of leadership (the recent Cowboys being the most obvious example), but most teams in the NFL have good leadership and most players have the right attitude. A “winner’s mentality” comes from winning, and winning comes from having good football players and the coaches to put them in the right situations.

by Buckeye Brad on May 15, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But all of that stuff about having a "winner’s mentality" is after-the-fact analysis.

Yes, I agree with this as well. Very few organizations keep that “winner’s mentality”, so it is hard to point it out before it happens. It is often after- the-fact analysis when people are attempting to explain why someone was successful.

Resident Josh Freeman fan.

by gahnki on May 15, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will agree that you cannot generalize every team out there, and it’s hard to distinguish between a mentality that comes from winning from a mentality that is conducive to winning (which I think it infinately better and much more stable). However, I know that Harbaugh brought a mentality with him. He installed it when he arrived last season.

The team was coming off a 5-11 season with a nine game losing streak. They just lost their long-time head coach and were a discouraged team to say the very least. Harbaugh brought his self proclaimed “hard-nosed” mentality, and it help the team persevere though a three game losing streak early in the season. You can say what you want about talent. Leonard, Walker and Ivy are not that amazing, but they still managed to get the job done last season (second in pass defense). They stepped up and played outside themselves. You can call it scheme. You can point to the pass rush, but I know that if Harbaugh hadn’t installed his mentality, they wouldn’t have held it together through the tough times. That’s when a good mentality is beneficial… It holds the team together and makes every player believe that they can make a difference and try harder.

by BAL_Hawk on May 16, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That being said… Mentality alone doesn’t win games. Talent is still extremely important. I’m not arguing against the importance of talent. There’s probably no mentality that would have saved the Lions from a losing season. Obviously, it is an unmeasurable quantity, and that’s probably why most people write it off. However, a good mentality will make a good team great, and a bad mentality will make a good team horrible.

by BAL_Hawk on May 16, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Football mentality

Is a lot more important than most people realize because it cannot be defined, or even described well.

Two best examples are the difference in the 49’ers from last year after Singletary took over.
And the 180 turn around by the Cardinals the past two years since the arrival of coaches Whiz and Grimm. Hell they even have the same FO but are now playing Steeler Style.

by steelerstyle on Jun 2, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree talent is an absolute requirement. But if you put a talented player on a team with poor leadership/bad mentality all you’ll get is flashes of brilliance nestled inside an otherwise dismal season.

It’s impossible to build a roster with the #1 guy at every position, so you need to get the talent you can while at the same time building an atmosphere that not only harnesses that talent, but also feeds positive energy to the other players and keeps them focused on their contribution to the overall effort.

This is starting to sound a bit esoteric. So in summary, neither talent nor mentality alone will do the trick. Each needs to reinforce the other.

by JustBob on May 16, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually agree with the winner’s mentality theory in this situation. When you have a culture of losing for such a long time, it is hard to break out of it even with some talent. Now, the Browns obviously need more talent to win, but having the idea that you are going to go out there and get the job done is very helpful to any competitor.

Resident Josh Freeman fan.

by gahnki on May 15, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Execution, execution and more execution. I agree with the talent and scemes, but if they can’t execute it we are not left with much. I guess that runs into the level of talent as well. I think the “mentality” is more of a confidence level, the more you win the more confident you are that you can keep winning. Let’s hope we bring all this to the field this season.

Joey_D

by Joey_D on May 15, 2009 8:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, it's all about execution

one o two plays a game could be the key to winning or losing. If Braylon had caught that long wide open pass against us, you very well should have won that game. Look how you played against the World Champs? A defense lapse here and there makes a big play that turns a game and forces you to play catch up and then the TO’s start. So start executing in key moments and you’d be better. But having too many me-first guys (K2, Braylon, Jamal) make a team into just a group of individuals.

The Ravens are a family and it shows on the field and off, especially when the offense washorrible and the defense just picked up the slack w/o complaining like they certainly could have. That is the mark of a winner and why we will still be in the hunt late in the season while most teams are thinking about the draft the following year!

Rexx

by Rexx on May 15, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Mangini agrees with you here, and I think he’s already begun efforts to create that kind of culture. Also, I know you have a long history with him, but Jamal-as-a-Brown has not been me-first at all. He spoke up once about running the ball more, but everyone in Ohio agreed with him after seeing DA throw three picks in 5 passes. Obviously you know K2 is gone.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 15, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s the mark of a winner, except two of the last four years (05 and 07).

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 15, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

…or seven out of the last ten years. We’ve been 8-8 or better in 7 out of 10 years (since 1999), and one of the “losing” seasons was 7-9. Things are always more accurate when you consider the whole picture… Nice try, kwoog.

by BAL_Hawk on May 15, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so you only want half a losing season for 7-9?

by DontCallMeJoey on May 15, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t ask for that. The numbers speak for themselves.

by BAL_Hawk on May 15, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, I’m allowed one little dig when my two biggest rivals play each other in the AFC Championship game the season that the Browns were preseason picks to do big things, aren’t I?

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on May 15, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha! Fair enough.

by BAL_Hawk on May 15, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

saying that Jamal and K2 were me-first players is inaccurate

by BradyQuinnisBeast on May 15, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe with Jamal, but certainly not K2. Selfish is as selfish does. And he continually shined his selfishness on and off the field.

Resident Josh Freeman fan.

by gahnki on May 15, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish the Browns would have drafted McCoy. All the emphasis that the new management has made on the “O” Line and commitment to run, a young fresh back who can get to a hole would of been a good pick. I just thing Jamal is past his prime and it will show this year.
 Other than that, I like the direction of this team and I see 7 to, and if all the cards fall into place( injuries, plus in turnover margin) Browns might see 9 wins.

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on May 19, 2009 7:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice to see the optimism

from a Browns loyalist.

Rexx

by Rexx on May 19, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

dont get your hopes up for any cleveland team other than the cavaliers
i have learned this the hard way

by Sizemorgasim on May 20, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well… So much for the Cavs. Will we ever win anything?

by Big Baby Rogers on May 31, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My Predictions

I don’t seem to be as optimistic as the rest of you guys here. I think we might win 5 if we’re lucky. I think we’ll resemble the 08 Browns more the the 07 Browns due to the loss of Joe J. Everyone can say all they want about BR and K2, but who was always there on 3rd and long in 07? even 3rd and short. You can’t lose a guy like Mr. 3rd down and not expect repercussions in your W-L column. Defensively we can’t get much worse BUT most of our defensive woes can be attributed to our offense’s amazing ability to give the other team the ball be it through turnover or 4th down. I know I’m going out on a limb here and opening myself to bashings from all the BQ fans out there but I think he’s not quite ready yet and DA should be our starter for tat least he beginning of the season.
As far as the division goes…. 2-3 wins if if a miracle happens. And to the hating the team and not the fans (a post near the middle) try living in Shittsburgh or anywhere within 50 miles of, you will grow to hate Steelers fans more than you ever did the team.

by North Coast Flea on May 27, 2009 6:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I too think the Browns really missed Joe J. last year, but I think they’ve taken steps to find someone to fill that spot. Personally, I expect Robiskie to step into that role very soon. Their problem last year was that there was literally nobody to go to in that situation. Should be much less of a problem this year.

Also, Quinn simply isn’t going to get “more ready” by standing on the sideline. He’s done plenty of that. Either he’s ready now, or he isn’t going to be. DA has shown that he has a strong arm, but he’s never going to have a high completion average, displays little touch on short-to-medium throws, and little judgment when trying to force the ball into coverage. I think all he’s proven is that he’s capable of having a hot streak, but overall he is an average QB at best, and a real liability at worst.

by drjeo on May 27, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That, and not having an NFL caliber QB for 1/4 of the schedule.

People, we won 4 games out of 12 last year, an we’ve improved over the off season and face a much easier schedule. The absolute minimum number of victories is 6. The mode is probably 8.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 3, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is right. It’s unfair to extrapolate including the last 4 games of last year. We were 4-8, with 3 of those 8 losses coming in games which we blew a lead in a game we should have won

by Roger Dorn on Jun 3, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And our schedule appears a lot easier this year.

by rufio on Jun 3, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly. Those loses to the Ravens and the Broncos really hurt. Most people do not understand that those loses and the subsequent injury-ridden games do not give an accurate portrayal of the talent on this team.

If we get as many good breaks as bad breaks we had last year, I think we can win 10 games or more.

by Big Baby Rogers on Jun 4, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just want a coach who will instill a little discipline. That alone should translate to more W’s

by Roger Dorn on Jun 5, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m sorry, you don’t go from 10 wins to 4 solely because of Jurevicious. We definitely missed him. Bigtime. But not 6 wins bigtime. I love(d) Joe J, and know losing him hurt us, but no third option makes that much of a difference on O.

If one were to allow that line of logic (that only a 3rd look on offense/more legitimate WR corps would boost us to 10-6), we should still be much better than last year because of the additions of Furrey, Patton, Robiskie, and Massaquoi, all of whom are better than Steptoe (who was lining up as our #2 WR for much of last year).

Robiskie and Massaquoi would both be bigtime home runs as draft picks if they ended up being a better tandem than Winslow and Joe J as rookies, so I don’t expect our offense to be as good as 2007’s, but our line should be better and if we can combine a Braylon rebound season with Robo and MoMass as WRs and then find a way to get something out of Cribbs, Harrison, and/or Rucker we could be way closer to 07 than 08.

The defense can not be worse than last year.

by rufio on May 29, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

as far as the OL, have we heard anything about the steinbach situation at LG recently? last i remember was that hadnot was taking first team reps…

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 8, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you that not having that possesion reciever that you need when the game is tight can make big impacts, but I think Furrey was signed and Robo and MoMass were drafted to give us the ability to fill that role. Also, I dont think anybody was playing very well last year and playing your 3rd string QB due to injuries can also hurt. I have to agree with drjeo and rufio.

by tjk_doc on Jun 3, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t understand why these Ravens fans continue to post stuff on our blog. We don’t bother them… Do we?

by Big Baby Rogers on Jun 4, 2009 10:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know if we do, I have never wasted my time over there

by Roger Dorn on Jun 5, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Neither have I. Its like walking into a firing sqaud.

by tjk_doc on Jun 5, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The cross-site communication is one of the best features of SBN to me. The Steelers guys (though unbelievably cocky) have really good discussions and know their football. I’m pretty welcome over there, or was at one time.

Now the Ravens, blog, there’s literally nothing of value there.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 5, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The cross-site communication is one of the best features of SBN to me.

I totally agree. As much as we’ve butted heads in the past, I do appreciate the outside opinions, including those from DBN and BTSC. We will tell you that we prefer the “quality over quantity” approach to our blog, but the reality is that it’s a new blog and Bruce is still estabilishing its base. We like what we have right now, and its getting better every day.

If course a Browns fan wouldn’t see the value of a Ravens blog. The value is in the eye of the beholder.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 6, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When a site moderator advocates trolling on a sister site (as he formerly known as “Rexx” did), that drastically and unequivocally undermines any credibility the site claims to have. Of course, contrition could allay that, but he’s never acknowledged or apologized for it, and that’s a prerequisite for you to be taken seriously when you claim a desire for a “quality” approach.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 6, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I’ve said before, we shouldn’t take ourselves too seriously on an internet blog.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 6, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is irrelevant to what we’re talking about.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 6, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unless holding a person accountable for a remark made in a joking manner on their own blog and requiring an acknoledgement or apology for the remark is taking yourself too seriously. If not, then you’re right.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 6, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You and I will never agree on this. There is no more disruptive thing one can do on a blog than troll. You ridiculously assume that it was just “all a gag”, as if it were one or two posts were he just said a funny line and left. No. He posted fan shots and browbeat those in this community, someone we took as as a Browns fan who actually wanted to have a “quality” dialogue. And he did this often and regularly, just to “get a rise” out of a bunch of fans on our own site, and he did so at the behest of a fellow site moderator. It would have been less egregious and disruptive if he had come on here and told us all to ^%$# our mothers.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 7, 2009 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You’re right. We will never agree on this issue. It’s not my place to address what Bruce says anyway.

We can leave it at that.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 7, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If course a Browns fan wouldn’t see the value of a Ravens blog. The value is in the eye of the beholder.

I completely disagree. Even though we may hate the Ravens and the Steelers, any intelligent Browns fans (which most here are) can appreciate the value of a Ravens or Steelers blog if it produces quality material. But when members of the blog are constantly trolling on our blog and making inflammatory comments then we’re not going to respect that blog, as kwoog said. I respect Ravens or Steelers fans who want to talk football without starting fights and calling people names.

by Buckeye Brad on Jun 6, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can see what you’re saying. I only meant to say that we appreciate the blog simply because we’re Ravens fans.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 6, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I post there but I dont bother them.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 5, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dont even know why I bother though.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 5, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its kinda funny because now that they had one good year they all think that they are win the super bowl next year and they think the Browns will win 2 games. They also think they drafted much better than us ( and their draft sucked IMO) and that Mack will be terrible.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 5, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oher will probably be good. Kruger will be good, especially if he can sit for a year or two and work on some things, learning from Suggs and Lewis et al.

Phillips was a decent pick, and I think Peerman could be a good 3rd RB.

Only time will tell, but at this point I don’t think they blew us out of the water or anything.

by rufio on Jun 6, 2009 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

 I think Oher will be good, but Kruger is slow and he is also 23 years old.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 6, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this. Michael Oher should be very good. He requested the play-book after he was drafted and came to team activities knowing the plays. Cam Cameron said that Oher was the first rookie he’d ever seen to report knowing the plays. With the retirement or Anderson, Oher will probably start at RT this season.

Paul Kruger should be good too. I haven’t seen much film on him, but many people have compared him to Aaron Kampman, which would be fantastic. I think that the Ravens idea is to replace Trevor Pryce with Kruger eventually. If he cannot play DE effectively, they will convert him to an OLB in the mold of Suggs. He showed the ability to drop into coverage in college.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 6, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the Kampman comparison is a little far. At least Kampman now to Kruger now, I did not watch Kampman in college so for all I know a college to college comparison could be valid.

I think Kruger’s best shot is probably at that Pryce position for you guys. He is nowhere close to as explosive as Suggs, who is a pretty rare breed.

by rufio on Jun 6, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah. Kruger’s definitely not explosive like Suggs. I was referring to him converting to a hybrid OLB like Suggs. He would probably be more like Jarret Johnson, who also started at DE.

I saw a little of Kampman in college. He played for Iowa and helped them beat Michigan… at least one game that I can remember. The similarities to Kruger are striking. I think that Kruger could be like Kampman… one day. He’s no where near that good right now, but if he sits behind Pryce for a couple seasons, it’s definitely possible. He will need to play close to that level in order to start after Pryce.

Anyway… Harbaugh said that their hope for Kruger is to play Pryce’s position. I hope that he can too.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 6, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kruger is only 260 though.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 8, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think that the Browns had a bad draft. They did the smart thing by trading down as far as possible. This year’s draft class was weaker than average. I’m not sure about Mack. I loved him before the draft, but I’m just not convinced that the Browns took the best player available. I suppose only time will tell.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 6, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Weaker than average? I think Mack will be great, and AT LEAST one of the receivers that we got should be good, if not both. And IMO Veikune > Kruger. I also wouldnt be surprised if either Coye Francies or James Davis turns out to be okay.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 8, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So to compare your first day to ours;

Mack and Oher should both be good offensive lineman

We got 2 receivers

Veikune and Kruger are somewhat similar, but I think Veikune is a little better.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 8, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he was referring to the entire class, not just the players we selected.

Maybe we didn’t take the best player available, but we probably took a very good player at a key position in our division. We also traded down out of the top 5 and picked up more picks and some defensive starters, something a lot of us on this blog wanted but didn’t think we could accomplish.

I am fine with a Baltimore fan not being in love with our draft. It was the Kokimanster’s first, and we did a heckuva lot better than a few other franchises.

by rufio on Jun 8, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually think that Cleveland had a pretty good draft. I was specifically talking about the Mack selection.

You make a very good point about the “key position” in the division. There are certain reasons to deviate from the best player available approach. The need of key positions must be one of them.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 8, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it’s evident also that Mangenius wants to run the ball. In my eyes he views Mack as a road-grader type center that typically isn’t available. Couple that with having to face Hampton and Ngata 4 times a year and the pick makes a lot of sense

by Roger Dorn on Jun 9, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think its funny how Ravens fans think Gaither is better than Thomas.

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 9, 2009 9:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gaither is one of the best tackles in the league, and is only getting better. The fact that we’re comparing a fifth round supplemental draft pick with a top three draft pick is really the point. Personally, I believe that Gaither had a better season last year, but Thomas and the Browns did have a bad year. Thomas will have an excellent career, and Gaither will too. It’ll be interesting to watch their careers evolve.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you may be comparing them, but that would make 1 comparison…

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 10, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can compare Jason Wright to Adrian Peterson: Wright is terrible, and Peterson is awesome.

Gaither is good, but i wouldn’t put him in as “one of the best in the league”.

by rufio on Jun 11, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would say top ten.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 11, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would not.

by rufio on Jun 11, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The fact that we’re comparing a fifth round supplemental draft pick with a top three draft pick is really the point.

That, and the fact that they’re not close to comparable is the point.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 10, 2009 1:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

meant as a reply to Balhawk

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 10, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jared Gaither was 6th in the league for sacks allowed and played only the league’s fourth ranked rushing offense. Joe Thomas was 17th in the league in sacks allowed and played on the league’s 26th ranked rushing offense. Gaither allowed less sacks and helped lead the better rushing attack. How is he “not close to comparable” to Thomas? In fact, I’d say that he was better than Thomas last season.

Furthermore, Gaither started the game against the Giants with an injured arm. After the Giants game, Harbaugh said, “Jared just did a tremendous job on all those guys rushing on the left side. He basically was going with one arm for a while and he was pass-protecting with one arm.”

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

B/c those stats are literally meaningless.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 10, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha… Good one.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They are. Sacks against, seriously? Team Rushing Yards? Good god, you might as well throw in Nick Markakis’ slugging percentage as proof that Gaithner is in Thomas’ league.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 10, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t feel I have to explain Team Rushing Yards. If you really think that has any bearing on an individual LT comparison, then there’s no help for you.

Here’s our man rufio breaking down stuff like a pro, maybe you’ll learn something. It exposes just one of the many reasons “sacks against” is a specious stat (nevermind the fact that the difference b/w “#6” and “#17” was 1.5).

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 10, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah… I understand what you’re saying, and I should have qualified my argument about the 1.5 sacks. There really aren’t many statistics to judge an offensive tackle by. Even though the statistics may not tell the whole story, they are not entirely meaningless. The sacks allowed list looks about right. All of the great tackles are near the top and all of the lesser tackles are near the bottom. The team rushing statistic isn’t totally meaningless either. Good rushing attacks need to have good offensive lineman… especially when your starting running-back is a converted fullback. Sure, it’s not a completely fool-proof method of evaluating lineman, but it’s all we’ve got. At the very least, Gaither is comparable to Thomas.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s not all we’ve got. One could simply watch one Browns game and one Ravens game and “get” more: which is that they’re not comparable. Thomas is comparable with Walter Jones, Chris Samuels and Jason Peters. Gaither is comparable with… I don’t know, Max Starks?

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 10, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, that’s very subjective… but I can roll with it.

Have you actually watched Gaither play? He’s a stud. He’s even MORE impressive when you “watch” him play. I’ve seen him drive Mario Williams ten yards up the field. I’ve seen him on an island versus James Harrison and win. He held Harrison without a sack in the second Steelers game and in the playoffs. I’ve seen him running in the open and leading a screen single-handedly. He forced Dallas to start blitzing DeMarcus Ware on the right side of the line. He is a dominate player when you “watch” him play.

I don’t know what criteria you’re looking for in your “watch” test or how refined your football eye must be to spot talent at a glance, but Gaither looks amazing to me. In fact, Gaither looks more impressive at a glance. He’s bigger (6’9" 330) than Thomas (6’6" 305) and appears to be faster. When you “watch” Gaither play, he dominates defensive ends, tackles and linebackers. Last season, he proved that he can be trusted versus almost any defensive player one-on-one.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh… By the way, Gaither is comparable to Thomas at the very least. I forgot to reassert that.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve seen him drive Mario Williams ten yards up the field

are you sure mario wasn’t dropping into coverage and gaither was running after him??

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 10, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No… I specifically remember that play. Williams tried to spin inside, and when he spun, Gaither hit him. The initial impact drove him Williams back about 2-3 yards, and Gaither just kept pushing.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe Williams got a cramp in his leg right when he spun.

Only kidding :p

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Jun 10, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not that I doubt you, but if there’s a way you could find some video of stuff like this, that’d be cool.

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Jun 10, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah… I was looking for it. It wasn’t an amazing play and is hard to find. Not to mention, Gaither is an unknown at this point, and people don’t make a big deal about him. It was a running play off left tackle. Gaither destroyed his man, but I believe the backside linebacker brought the ball-carrier down for a minimal gain.

It’s just one of those plays, as a fan, you remember…

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 11, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you have a 30 year old Jamal running the ball it doesnt matter who your LT is

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 10, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it is hard to find stats for OL, but the ones you chose are not particularly illuminating, in my opinion. football outsiders has some more interesting, and more refined, stats that give a little bit better picture of line play as a whole.

i don’t know a lot about gaither, let me first say that. it sounds like he is very big, which in and of itself means little, and thusly i would imagine a pretty good run blocker. from what you say, it appears as though he has the makings of a good pass rusher, but dare i say 1 year does not a legend make.

can we agree that the LT position is more important with respect to the pass blocking game than any other lineman? i feel comfortable in saying that, and i believe the salary numbers and draft positions of the linemen bear that out. well, FO has a specific “pass protection” section in its OL ratings…and cle ranked 8 in ’08, while bal ranked 22. that appears to be a pretty big win for cle, and i believe i pretty big win for joe t, if we agree that the LT is the most important pass blocker.

rushing is another matter, which we can get into elsewhere if we like. suffice it to say that i’ll concede that the ravens running stats appear to give gaither the edge over thomas in that part of the game, but as we all know, rushing the ball is a very complicated story, and especially when trying to judge individual linemen.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 10, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you’ll also note that the ravens ran the ball more than any other team in football last year, and not by a small margin…in fact, the ravens rushed the ball 178 more times than the browns…and yet the browns allowed 9 fewer sacks. and don’t give me the rookie qb baloney—the browns had a statue (anderson), what amounts to a rookie (quinn), and 2 guys from off the street (dorsey and gradkowski) start at qb last year.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 10, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually really like the way FO breaks down the rushing stats. I remember reading an ESPN insider article about how running at Joe Thomas (and the unbalanced line) was one of the best things the Browns could do because whatever stat they had that measured rushing success behind Thomas basically said that Thomas was awesome.

I know I have been critical of some of their stuff, but their work with the OL is vastly better than any stat out there for the OL.

by rufio on Jun 11, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is too much of a factor that includes running backs and the other lineman with regards to run blocking that can allow simple statistics to be relevant. For any amateur like the majority of us, we should rely mostly on expert scouting opinion because using our own naked eye to make these judgments is insufficient. Using basic stats is also insufficient

by Roger Dorn on Jun 10, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I usually agree. The “watch” test was not my idea.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the links! This is really good stuff.

I love Football Outsiders and didn’t even know that they did this analysis. It looks like you’re right about the pass-protection, but the overall difference in the adjusted sack rate is only 2.5%. I would have actually been surprised if Gaither was better in pass-protection right now. He has alot to learn, and pass-protection is more mental than physical.

Last season was Gaither’s first as a starter and the first season under Cameron’s system. Gaither’s already an excellent run-blocker. Between Gaither and Thomas, I believe that Gaither’s the better tackle for the Raven’s run-first offense. I think we’ve proven that Thomas is better in pass-protection and Gaither is a better run-blocker. Ultimately, Gaither has elite potential and can be compared to Thomas at the very least. Again, it’s amazing that we can even put a fifth round supplemental pick into this converstation.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gaither has elite potential and can be compared to Thomas at the very least. Again, it’s amazing that we can even put a fifth round supplemental pick into this converstation.

not trying to be dickish, but this has sort of been self-fulfilling on your part. to say “it’s amazing” to talk about gaither and thomas in the same conversation…well, you’re the one who put them in the conversation. i think the browns fans here have been engaged in refuting your claim, as opposed to wondering if gaither is in the thomas class. i’d venture that no one else puts gaither in the thomas conversation.

and i believe the numbers bear that out, to a large degree. pass blocking is clearly the most important thing that LTs do, and joe t. appears to be a much superior pass blocker. maybe gaither’s better in the run, but as is pointed out, that’s pretty hard to assess. not saying gaither doesn’t have potential, but today he doesn’t belong in the discussion w/ thomas.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 10, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn’t go too far with the 2.5% differential in the adjusted sack rate, but I will admit that Thomas is probably a better pass blocker at this point. However, Gaither is a natural run-blocker and his physical tools cannot be taught. He is only 22 and has tons of upside after one successful season.

I will relent. I know the futility of arguing about Browns players on a Browns blog. I still think that Gaither has at least as much potential as Thomas and am still amazed that we got him in the supplemental draft. However, I’m not going to put him in the same conversation any longer… at least not over here.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 10, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll admit I know nothing about Gaither, than what I’ve read since seeing a Ravens fan compare him to one of the 3 best LTs in the game that happens to wear a Browns jersey. I’ll also admit that it’s very possible that a 5th rounder could become an elite LT, even at an early age. If so it’s undoubtedly a grandslam pickup for Ozzie and company.

I just haven’t heard a peep about him anywhere else, certainly not mentioned in the upper echelon of players at the position. Thomas has since his second game.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jun 10, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you. Gaither is very underrated and unknown at this point. I think that it takes some time before late round picks get recognition. Thomas had a head start because he blew up at the combine and was drafted third overall. Gaither didn’t even attend the combine. That’s actually good for the Ravens because most scouts that I’ve read say that Gaither would have easily been a first rounder.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 11, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gaither had/has first round talent, no doubt. There were some non-physical concerns about him though, weren’t there? Clayton said some teams would have taken him in the 2nd round of the 08 draft.

I would also argue that Gaither and Thomas are not comparable players because Gaither is probably a more natural RT and Thomas a LT. I just don’t think Gaither has the elite pass blocking skill required to be a pro bowl LT, and I don’t think he has the potential to be an elite LT because he doesn’t have the physical tools to be a 330lb ballerina.

He is a 6’9" guy who plays high, which is a big weakness for a pass blocker. He gets away with a lot because of his freakishly long arms, but I don’t know if he’ll ever be able to be a pro-bowl LT kind of guy like you guys were used to with Ogden.

Also, Gaither is 23, not 22.

by rufio on Jun 11, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gaither did have some non-physical concerns. His grades weren’t the best at Maryland. Basically, he skipped the 2007 combine and committed to play in his senior year, but personal issues forced him to quit school and make money. That’s why he entered the supplemental draft.

Gaither and Thomas may not be comparable in their style of play, but I still think that they are comparable in their potential. Gaither’s style is more comparable to Jon Ogden (6’9" 345) or Marcus McNeill (6’7" 336), who Cameron coached in San Diego and has already made two Pro Bowls. Those are just the players who I think Gaither resembles. I’m not sure why you believe he’s a “more natural RT” and doesn’t have “the elite pass blocking skill required to be a pro bowl LT.” He did a remarkable job last season and allowed only six sacks. As I already said, I saw him hold down the left side all season and neutralize some of the NFL’s best pass-rushers.

A “6’9” guy who plays high" is a “big weakness” in pass-protection. I agree with that. Ogden was a 6’9" guy and struggled sometimes versus speed rushers like Freeney. He may have struggled at times in the passing game but was able to use his size in the running game. It’s all about the system that they’re in. Ogden was a perennial Pro Bowler for the Ravens.

Good technique is very important for guys like Gaither. Gaither did play a bit high as a rookie, but that’s something that he worked on in training camp and last season. He made massive strides and played well during the rest of the season. I’m not saying that Gaither will be as awesome as Ogden, but I think that he has awesome potential in the mold of Ogden. He can definitely be a Pro Bowler if he stays healthy and works hard.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 11, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A remarkable job for a LT is zero sacks allowed. Not six.

The fact that you admit Gaither is not going to be as good as Ogden means you admit he won’t be an elite LT: it takes a freak among freaks to be an elite LT. Ogden was a freak among freaks.

I still put Gaither’s potential at “good to very good” as a LT and “very good to extremely good” at RT.

by rufio on Jun 11, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m sorry… I had it wrong. Gaither only allowed three sacks last season. Joe Thomas allowed four and a half sacks. We’ve already discussed the meaninglessness of this stat, but you’re the one who said, “A remarkable job for a LT is zero sacks allowed. Not six.” I think that three sacks allowed is pretty darn good for a fifth round supplemental pick who is starting their first season. As I’ve already stated, it was good for sixth in the league.

Obviously, he’s not as good as Ogden right now, and as a Baltimore fan, I wouldn’t presume to say that he ever will be. Ogden is arguably the best LT of all time, and those are huge shoes to fill. I referenced Ogden to show that tall tackles can be successful if they use good technique and that Gaither has “potential in the mold of Ogden.”

You can put any labels on Gaither that you want. It doesn’t mean anything to me, and I know that it doesn’t mean anything to him. When Gaither was drafted in the supplemental draft with all of his concerns, I’m sure no one thought that he could actually start for an NFL team. He was labeled a backup. Obviously, he won the starting job. When he started in his first season, I sure no one thought that he would only allow three sacks all year. He was targeted by defenses and labeled a liability. Not only did he perform remarkably, but he proved himself versus the best defensive players in the NFL.

Gaither has only started one season, turned 23 in March and has his whole career ahead of him. His achievements against all odds are amazing for such a young player. Gaither obviously has a great career ahead of him, and at this rate, I do not see any reason why he wouldn’t make the Pro Bowl in a few years (or less). I’m just not seeing your evidence against him.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 12, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just don’t think he’s all that great. We clearly disagree on that, and it’s definitely got a high degree of subjectivity so no need to go all italics on me.

I didn’t say things contrary to a lot of what you say in this comment. He’s still 23 and not 22. Either way, he’s young. I never said he wasn’t.

I am sure plenty of GMs thought he could start for an NFL team—if he took care of business—which he didn’t do at Maryland. From what I read, he was always considered someone with the talent to start in the league.

A remarkable job for a LT is still 0 sacks in a year, regardless of how many Thomas, Gaither, or any other LT had last year.

I also never said that he wasn’t “pretty darn good for a fifth round supplemental pick who is starting their first season”. I questioned his ability to be a freak among freaks, not to be good, pretty darn good, or good despite not being in the real draft.

Good reasons why it will be very difficult for Gaither to make the pro bowl: Joe Thomas, Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Michael Roos, the fan vote, and the fact that linemen often get grandfathered in: unless they are clearly outplayed, they tend to keep making it year after year. Does the pro bowl say anything about his talent? Maybe only that he isn’t one of the top 6 OT in the game beyond all doubt…which is pretty much all I have been saying.

You can disagree with that all you want, no need to try to convince me otherwise.

by rufio on Jun 12, 2009 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good points and all valid.

Gaither’s potential is a very “subjective” argument and what our disagreement centered around. Obviously, a Ravens fan will be on the positive side of that argument. This whole thing started when I said that it’s amazing that the Ravens drafted Gaither in the supplemental draft and that we can compare Gaither and Thomas.

I’m still amazed that the Ravens were able to snag Gaither in the supplemental draft. That’s another slam-dunk for Ozzie. I still think that Gaither has Ogden potential and his achievements speak for themselves, but I should not have compared him to Thomas on a Browns blog. I can see how that’s “dickish.”

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 12, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the way, I never admitted that “Gaither is not going to be as good as Ogden.”

I just wasn’t going to claim that he would be. That would be like calling Flacco the next Unitas. He may have the potential, but it’s still too early to be making claims like that. Now… believing that they have the potential is a different story.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 12, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still put Gaither’s potential at "good to very good" as a LT and "very good to extremely good" at RT.

Would you keep Gaither on the left side and play Oher on the right? Or would you work Oher into the left spot and move Gaither to the right? The Ravens currently like Gaither on the left side. I’d just like to see what you think about Oher.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 12, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I honestly don’t remember watching Oher play college ball. The scouting reports prior to the draft said Oher wasn’t extremely quick or agile, that he is better in less space, and that he is a better run blocker than pass blocker. If those were correct, I’d say you guys are making the right decision—at least for now.

by rufio on Jun 12, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Being drafted that high does not really matter all that much though. Look at Robert Gallery for example. Play on the field is ultimately where the hype comes from

by Roger Dorn on Jun 11, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree in general… Performance is the biggest determining factor, but being a top-ten pick gives a player name recognition. Everyone knows that the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. I think the first rounders have an edge when the performances are comparable.

by BAL_Hawk on Jun 12, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it may be a popularity contest, but it’s at least turned into a popularity contest amongst the players…as in, the players get to vote and that’s the largest share of determining who goes. that’s very different from a fan-based popularity contest.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 12, 2009 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that is not a small human male

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 11, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely disagree.

by rufio on Jun 11, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Non-stop coverage of the team with the best fans in the NFL, the Cleveland Browns.

Community Guidelines
Send us a Scoop

Start posting about the Browns »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Info on Peyton Hillis
Small
Next Up on the Tradining block....
20051225mf_fbn_fan_takedownpj_450_small
Quinn and 2nd round pick to Broncos for Marshal
Troy_smith_small
About the Jake Delhomme acquisition.
4horsemen_small
Possible Mid round Sleepers.
Twitter-av_small
Why didn't we trade for McNabb or Kolb?
Rogerdorn_small
The Pittsburgh Steelers are Hypocrites?
4horsemen_small
Dear Mike Holmgren,
4horsemen_small
Want to know if Berry falls to #7? It depends on Mike Shanahan and the Redskins.
Wvu_small
How Long Before Our Brownies Are in PlayOff Contention?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Browns Links

Latest NFL Headlines from SB Nation

Niners Nation
Golden Nuggets: Wondering if I missed a good thread...
Bolts From The Blue
Serious Business: 3/16 Chargers Links
Gang Green Nation
Ihedigbo leads Group Of 20 To Haiti

SBNation.com Recent Stories

Photo link

Giants Win Coin Toss, Will Open New York Stadium

Washington Redskins quarterback Jason Campbell (17) is sacked by Atlanta Falcons' Kroy Biermann during the first quarter of an NFL football game Sunday, Nov. 8, 2009, in Atlanta. (AP Photo/John Bazemore) link

The Falcoholic Interviews Falcons DE Kroy Biermann

Cleveland Browns quarterback Brady Quinn fires a pass in the first quarter of an NFL football game against the Minnesota Vikings Sunday, Sept. 13, 2009, in Cleveland. (AP Photo/Mark Duncan) +4 updates

Cleveland Browns Trade Brady Quinn To Broncos For Peyton Hillis, Conditional Picks

More from SBNation.com >


Executive Editor

Dbn_small Chris Pokorny

Moderators

Pryor_small Buckeye Brad