Brandon Marshall to the Browns?
Well it looks like the Browns are interested in another Bronco. This time it is Brandon Marshall. Marshall has a checkered past, and that is putting it lightly.
Rumor is; Joshua Cribbs and a draft pick for Brandon Marshall
I have said before that I am not in favor of keeping players with numerous incidents. I am not sure that I am loving this idea of Cribbs and a pick for Marshall. Lower than a first, and I am probably on board. This would enable to Browns to play hardball with Edwards or flip him out.
Looking at Marshall, he is a trouble maker off the field and a complete beast on the field. I personally think that he is a bigger, stronger Anquan Boldin.
over 2 years ago
Bernie19Kosar
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Quick thoughts:
-No idea where Florio is getting this information, he doesn’t even link to anything. This seems more tenuous than the Quinn and Edwards rumors before the draft
-The speculation of Edwards to the Ravens makes this seem even more unlikely
-I know Cribbs is a fan favorite, and he is also one of my favorite players, but if you have the chance to get Brandon Marshall for Cribbs and a mid-round pick, you make that move
-Keep Edwards either way
Edwards and Marshall lining up together would give alot of defenses some major headaches. I think its worth the price as.
i hate florio. i can’t say anymore without fear of rupturing blood vessels in my forehead.
-I know Cribbs is a fan favorite, and he is also one of my favorite players, but if you have the chance to get Brandon Marshall for Cribbs and a mid-round pick, you make that move
as a proud Josh Cribbs jersey owner, I said pretty much the same thing this morning upon hearing the news.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
Cribbs for Marshall????
no… cribbs has been growing with the browns and has done so many things in different positions to get rid of. I understand that we would be getting an outstanding player on the field, but 2 things: 1.off field incidences…. we dont need any more of that in cleveland. 2. he’s not as notable when it comes to playing different positions like cribbs. This is how cleveland always does their fans.. they get a fan fav. (cribbs), build him up, then get rid of him for a “better” player and then he ends up folding… (Rogers last year). We need to stop getting rid of our only couple players that actually deserve to play every second, every game and let them lead our brownies to the big W.
by Clevelandfan05 on Jun 17, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions
The Rogers move was a great move.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 17, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
marshall is an obvious and extreme football upgrade over cribbs. there’s actually never been anything more certain. if marshall continued to play football at the high level that he has for the past several years, he would help the browns win much more than cribbs. the fans would be fine with that. it’s about winning. the off-field stuff would be all that would stand in the way of this deal (which actually is probably also the only thing that created the potential for this deal).
and rogers was freaking awesome last year. when did he fold? in the pro bowl?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 17, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
no… cribbs has been growing with the browns and has done so many things in different positions to get rid of. I understand that we would be getting an outstanding player on the field, but 2 things: 1.off field incidences…. we dont need any more of that in cleveland. 2. he’s not as notable when it comes to playing different positions like cribbs. This is how cleveland always does their fans.. they get a fan fav. (cribbs), build him up, then get rid of him for a "better" player and then he ends up folding… (Rogers last year). We need to stop getting rid of our only couple players that actually deserve to play every second, every game and let them lead our brownies to the big W.
I find what I bolded funny because Shaun Rogers never folded last year. To say something like that is completely retarded. Do you not pay attention to statistics and even the games he played in? Please delete your account until you have something intelligent to state.
while i thought this was a silly post, too, you go a little overboard here, man.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 18, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
"stating" the obvious
Just sayin that Shaun Rogers never really lived up to the hype.. thats all.. AND it kinda is hard for me to pay attention to every single little stat and game considering that I am busy fighting for YOUR freedom overseas as we have this tiny conversation.. so how about you take it easy tonto, and think about what your goning to say the next time you wanna be an ass
by Clevelandfan05 on Jun 22, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Just saying, how would we have known? but thanks though
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 22, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
To be perfectly honest, the first thing I thought when I heard Marshall was a free agent, is that the Giants, Vikings, or Bears would pursue him.
Guess I am old school, I really don’t want Marshall to be a Brown. Great receiver, but he will be problems, that is a given. No thanks.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
I am kinda with this. Its one thing to mess up once or to be young and stupid for a year or so. But this dude has been in the league and he is in trouble far too often.
Maybe a fresh start in Cleveland would do him some good, I don’t know. I did see an interview with him where he seemed to claim complete innocence in his most recent abuse charges, and didn’t seem to think that he needed to remove himself from certain situations or make changes in his life. After being arrested several times, you’d think he might be trying to become a “new” Brandon Marshall, just like the “new” Chris Henry.
He is a freak athlete, but unless there is info out there that I don’t have that can vouch for his character, I don’t want him.
If he came to Cleveland he might leave his girlfriend in Denver
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 17, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think a pro football player would have trouble finding another girlfriend in Cleveland.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 17, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn’t one of his injuries because he slipped on a McDonald’s paper bag and fell on an exposed knife on the ground? Something like that?
hmmm…. didn’t a Browns RB once claim to have slipped on the stairs while carrying a knife and accidentally stabbed himself in the back? Pretty similar stories. Maybe Marshall would fit right in here.
William Green
He said that he slipped down the stairs and stabbed himself in the back. He was actually covering for his girlfriend, who was the one who obviously was the one who did it.
I heard william Green is trying to comeback into the league. Anyone interested?
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 30, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Marshall has had numerous incidents with the law. Almost all of them include his former girlfriend Rasheedah Watley. I believe that they are no longer a couple.
I guess the FO needs to balance Marshalls talent versus his off-field troubles. I personally am a huge Marshall fan (He being on a fantasy football roster of mine helped) and think that adding him to the Browns would be a huge addition. I love Josh Cribbs, but if you have a chance to add one of the best WR’s in the NFL, you have to do it.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 17, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
You make a good point. It depends on what kind of draft pick we get. It would be nice if we could throw in MoMass instead of a draft pick.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 17, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
If all of the incidents involved his ex, then maybe. At least he would have shown signs of separating himself from the situation.
Also, 3rd round pick or lower.
I honestly wouldn’t mind if it was a second rounder.
If I could get Brandon Marshall for the 33rd-64th pick in next years draft, I’m in.
Someone needs to talk me down. I am envisoning Edwards and Marshall on the outside. That would take the place of K2s’ production.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 18, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Lets say we do trade for Marshall, and we have Edwards, and 100 or so rookie WRs… now lets go as far to say they become an amazing receiving core like we’ve seen in Arizona, New England, or Indy…… we’re missing a piece that all those teams had. Payton Manning, Tom Brady, even Kurt Warner. We don’t have that caliber of QB. We are stuck with two or three decent back-up QBs that make for sub-par starters. Unless DA has some miracle return to the first half of 2007, but I know most of you here don’t think that’ll happen.
So you are able to write off Brady Quinn after 2 starts in which the offense scored over 20 points both games?
(Believe me, I would want nothing more than a Browns’ QB to be the next Tom Brady, but I don’t think Quinn is the guy)
I write him off based on his 3 years in the NFL (2 TDs, and 2 INTs), 3 college bowl losses, and 4 USC thrashings. He failed repeatedly to lead his team to victory in big games. I see no reason why that pattern would change all of the sudden.
All of this is beside my original point: Strong receiving tandems are best suited with an elite QB.
Do I think Brady Quinn is or ever will be an elite QB? No.
I write him off based on his 3 years in the NFL (2 TDs, and 2 INTs), 3 college bowl losses, and 4 USC thrashings. He failed repeatedly to lead his team to victory in big games. I see no reason why that pattern would change all of the sudden.
literally none of this has any bearing on whether or not quinn will be a successful qb in the NFL. seriously. zero.
feel free to try again, though.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 18, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, I’m going to pick my battles considering it’s one on four here. I’m willing to brush off the fact that, in college, his team repeatedly failed in big game after big game.
But you’re trying to tell me the fact that he has failed to make the starting roster on the Cleveland Browns for three strait years has NO bearing on his NFL success? Seriously, zero?
First off, he has played for two years.
Second, last time I checked, Midway through the season he passed DA until he broke his finger.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 18, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Right. In Quinn’s first season DA took over for the second game and had a Pro Bowl season. Nothing Quinn could do there, and he was still just a roookie. Last year he started as the backup but became the starter and played pretty well in 2 1/2 games before the was injured for the rest of the season. I don’t really see what there is to complain about here.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 18, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
seriously. zero.
as has been pointed out, it’s been 2 years. and the fact of the matter is he was the starter for one half of one of those years (starting w/ the DEN game last year). so, he sat for 1 1/2 years. the first behind a pro bowl effort from a qb of a 10-6 team.
and then he got hurt in his second start. so, once more, none of what you’ve said has any bearing on his ability to be a successful pro.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 18, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Im tired of people saying that he cant lead a team. If you watched any ND football you could tell he was the WHOLE reason the team was that good.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 18, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
ND suffers from having such a big following that they always get placed in a better bowl than they deserve. Can Quinn overcome the fact that his teams weren’t as good as the bowl they were placed in?
He played brilliantly against a far more talented USC team, in a game they should have won. He started all 4 years (one strong proven indicator of NFL success)
Yea, we do and I will admit that. Speaking of Brady Quinn, have I ever told you guys about how i got to shake his hand while he was coming out of mass before an ND game( two years in a row!)
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 18, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
So admit that Quinn and his team wasn’t good enough to play in a bowl that has any prestige whatsoever. At least we got that much cleared up.
No, I’m just saying that in 06 they didnt deserve to play in the Sugar Bowl against the #4 team. They deserved either a different BCS or the best non-BCS bowl.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 18, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the TEAM. It has nothing to do with the PLAYER. Why don’t you get that?
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 18, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That wasn’t even the subject in that exact post.
Quinn and his team
Please get your facts straight before you post.
HAHA! YOU are going to tell someone to get their facts straight?!? The person who doesn’t know how long Quinn has been with the Browns?
I was referring to your constant posts that “Quinn can’t win the big games”.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 18, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
It was a play on the fact that you said the exact words in an earlier post. I’m sorry I got his years in the NFL wrong. Last time I checked they drafted him in 2007. I got the ‘incorrect’ stat off of ESPN, actually.
No offense, Simmsinns, but you shouldnt be the one telling us to get our facts straight.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 18, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
ND has won nothing since Quinn left.
4 USC thrashings? I remember USC needing a “Bush Push” to beat ND and Quinn.
By the way, Tom Brady couldn’t beat out Drew Henson for a job at scUM. Case closed.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 18, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, put just about any QB at Notre Dame during Quinn’s era and you still don’t have much of a chance to win those games.
ND just didn’t have a whole lot of talent, and a lot of the teams they played were freaking stacked.
a few years ago i was watching the ND USC game (the Bush Push one) when Leinart was USC’s QB, and I remember thinking that if we had Leinart and USC had Brady this game would be a shutout.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 19, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
ND being the team getting shut out
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 19, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
First of all, Quinn has only played 2 years in the NFL so far. And the idea that he can’t win “big games” ridiculous. He had virtually no NFL talent on his team besides him and he still led ND to very good seasons every year. Putting the success of the whole team on one player is foolish.
Also, you seem to be forgetting that ND should have beaten a USC team that many considered one of the best in history, and only lost because of the “Bush Push”. That’s not a blowout.
Please get your facts straight before you post.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 18, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I apologize, I forgot about that one game. For the record, make it 3 thrashings at the hands of USC. By the way, how’d that “best in history” team perform against Ohio State?
USC didn’t play Ohio State that year. are you confusing a video game that you played?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 18, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh ok, I miss understood him. I thought he was trying to claim that 2005 ND was the best in history.
ND is the best at being overrated every year and that’s about it
by Roger Dorn on Jun 18, 2009 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Haha, I am kind of joking this time. It’s in my contract as a BC alum to point this out whenever the opportunity presents itself
I am almost waiting for ND’s recruiting classes to finally factor in to their W-L record to the point where everyone is underrating them.
I still hate LSU, Florida, michigan, and USC more than Notre Dame.
by rufio on Jun 19, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did you see Warner with the Giants?
Maybe the sick WR’s he played with in St. Louis (Bruce, Holt, Az-Hakim, Faulk) and Zona (Boldin, Fitz) had something to do with him winning?
I have a hard time believing that Quinn and/or DA would not be successful throwing to Marshall and Edwards. And like Roger Dorn said, add in Robo and Furrey working the short areas, I’m about to black out.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 18, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Gradkowski would be successful throwing to Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith and Randy Moss on the same team.
/s
and a healthy westbrook (is there such a thing) at RB and Gates at TE
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 19, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
You know, all 5 of you have shown me the light and for that, I thank you!
Due to my unnecessary behavior seen here (i.e. Quinn’s 3 years experience ect..), I’m willing to personally meet each one you at a neutral location at my own expense, so you can personally punch me in the face with out retaliation, after Quinn breaks the single season passing touchdown record in 2009.
From an outside perspective, the thing is that it’s not impossible to be very critical of the Browns or their current roster. You just have to go about it the right way. Don’t argue Quinn sucks b/c he “didn’t win the big game”, argue he sucks b/c his Completion percentage is too low, or his arm isn’t good enough, or something that actually has some relevance.
The same goes with other potential critques (Wimbley isn’t strong enough to be a pass rusher, Jackson is too small, running backs have a great deal to do with running success and it takes more than a good line).
So my point is this: critical Browns fans, you have a wealth at your disposal. So stop being dumb about your pessimism and start being smart, and we might actually get somewhere on this site.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
Romeo didn’t win because he is fat!
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 19, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Here’s where I went wrong: I decided to state my opinion and attempt to defend it against the onslaught. Sorry for having an opinion that’s different than yours.
For the record, I’m not a pessimistic Cleveland fan. Look at my history, I was one of the first here saying JH is the next big thing and that Edwards is on is way back to the top. (I spent a half hour making my own Cavs Believeland logo) I just simply thought Quinn was overrated, but NOT ANYMORE!
It was fun but I lost. I’m now a bigger fan of Quinn than the guy around here with Quinn in his username! By the way, you never told me where we should meet after Quinn breaks the TD record.
Did you even read what he wrote? He never said you weren’t allowed to have an opinion. He actually gave a few reasons why you might think Quinn wasn’t going to be any good. But don’t say he’s overrated because “he couldn’t win the big game in college” because that’s not intelligent analysis and it makes you look dumb (plus the fact that you didn’t know how long he’s been in the NFL). We welcome dissenting opinions if you state your argument based on logical analysis.
You don’t need to pretend you’re a big Quinn fan to make us feel better — that’s not what we want. We want intelligent discussions no matter what your opinion is.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 19, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Galway Bay, in Chicago.
You can have an opinion, and opinions can be wrong or invalid. I was merely advocating to those that want to combat some of the optimism of Dorn, Rufio, BBrad and myself, that there are better and worse ways to go about it. As Brad says below, I’d actually welcome some intelligent pessimism on this blog. Embrace the dialectics, baby.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
I can tell you were sarcastic but I’m the biggest Quinn fan around here. Period.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 19, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, so let’s say Quinn never won the big game in college and that it actually was his fault, or that he could have somehow pulled a LeBron and scored the final 25+ points for his team, or that he could have made someone else better, etc.
Craig Krenzel?
There are reasons to believe Quinn won’t be a legit starting QB:
-He just doesn’t throw deep. He has the arm strength, but he just never attempts passes down the field? Why? What is he hiding? What if a defense forces him to do it?
-He is accurate for the most part, but then he will have a few passes that just go nowhere close to the intended receiver. At a guy’s feet, behind him, over his head, NOWHERE close.
The problem wasn’t that you had an opinion different than us, it was the reasons you had that opinion. Football is such a team sport that even an individual’s poor performances in a particular game may or may not be his fault. You didn’t even cite BQ’s numbers from those “big” games, you just cited the W-L record, which certainly can’t be blamed on Quinn.
I'm afaid I'll have to wave the white flag at this point.
Go Quinn, Go! (greatest QB in the sport, ever)
I realize that this is sarcasm, but that is pretty cool.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 20, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I am often very sarcastic, but I seriously lost the argument. Actually, ‘lost’ is putting it lightly, I got ripped to shreds. Thoroughly owned after every statement I made on the matter. I’ve now admitted defeat.
Apparently, some people want to keep bringing it back up in every thread I comment in. [sigh]
Go Quinn, Go! (greatest QB in the sport, ever)
Im not one who keeps bringing it up, but the reason they do is because of your avatar and Quinn.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 20, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting idea, I never thought of it. It doesn’t seem that Baltimore had been interested in getting into bidding wars for past WR (Boldin, TO, etc.).
I guess I wouldn’t put it past this FO. Remember the leak about this FO falling in love with Sanchez? That worked out.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 18, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yea, and I am pretty proud of the commenters and Chris for seeing through that smoke screen the entire time. I feel like everyone here was pretty comfortable in acknowledging that Brady wasn’t going anywhere and that were were trying to create more value at our number 5 pick
Greak work Kotnkus (sp?)
The only time I thought that Quinn could be moved was during the Jay Cutler time.
Either way, the Jets bought it!
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 18, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Cribbs is a kick-punt return specialist, and he requires an upgrade in pay. He is neither, a receiver due to his linebacker like body, nor is it even feasible that he will play defense just so he can show off his versatility.
Marshal is a Bronco for life, he is not available. Someone is just rocking the boat.
Marshal is a Bronco for life
This is the NFL. There are probably only 5 players that are for life. Brady, Peyton, Big Ben, Peterson and maybe Eli? No one is assured a job after this year. Even those people I listed could very easily be in another uniform next year. Remember, the NFL stands for Not For Long.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 18, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
We all though there would be no way Brett would play for anyone but the packers a few years ago.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 18, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t even put Peterson in that category. Mostly because he is a RB and plays like he doesn’t give a care about his body.
Honestly I had a hard time coming up with anyone after Peyton and Brady and that is just because they are older.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 19, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it is much more relevant that great players like Nate Harris (released by the Jets) are available off waivers. Boss Bailey, unclaimed. Derrick Brooks still has a few good years. Barrett Ruud, who is the better Ruud, is malcontent and maybe available. Also awesome players wasting away on other teams rosters, such as Demorrio Williams (Chiefs) and someone like Erinie Sims (Lions) possibly riding the bench behind Julian Peterson next year. Meanwhile proven inside linebackers from college, Worrell Williams (California), Maurice Crum Jr. (Notre Dame) and lesser known Greg Trent (Washington State), guys with classic inside linebacker bodies and temperament, went undrafted and unsigned.
This may seem like a tangent, but to me as a new fan, this team is simply not vigilant towards all possibilities.
Passing up B.J. Raji in the draft, to complement the best nose guard in the NFL, Shaun Rogers, is to me almost criminally negligent towards the Browns fans.
Guys that could be succeeding elsewhere meanwhile, like Anderson, Edwards and even Quinn, are squandering their value away on the Browns.
Let´s get with it. Success doesn´t require money, it requires decisiveness.
I’m with you on Boss Bailey. Also, Barrett is the better Ruud.
Derrick Brooks, however, is a terrible fit for our scheme, and will probably only want to play for a contender. There is no way anyone in or around Detroit is stupid enough to put Ernie Sims on the bench. It would take quite a lot to acquire Sims or Ruud.
All three of the “proven” LBs you talk about are not promising pro prospects—or really anywhere close.
I liked Raji, too. But trading down out of the top 5 instead of selecting him with his questionable intelligence, work ethic, etc. and investing that much cap room in him is not anywhere close to “criminally negligent”. Its more like “one of the options we had if we couldn’t trade down”.
You have zero room to say what the new FO has been “vigilant” to because you have no clue what they’ve considered, only what they’ve done.
How has this regime not been decisive? They put forward a pretty clear vision of what they want, traded a star who didn’t fit their system/they didn’t like/has a questionable future due to injury, made a big trade on draft day (down from #5), cut a bunch of players, and got a bunch that they liked. What exactly is not “decisive” about that?
thanks for your measured response.
It´s too bad you are so down on Raji. To me defense line is not rocket science, but it does require talent. Raji was a blinding beacon in that regard, he is exceptional. However if you´re rationale is the average opinion, questionable intelligence and bad work ethic, that at least explains why he was slighted. To me it was a decision to be good not great.
In terms of decisiveness in the draft, ok I think Elam is a pretty valuable addition, the rest is just fluffering. I know Mack can play guard and Fraley probably isn´t so bad at center considering he started on the vaunted Eagles for five years, but if you´re going to go center, just wait and see, Unger and Wood are true building blocks. Of the USC linebackers, I mean I hope he pans out, but you choose the invisible man in Kaluka Maiava, was there a pact with the Packers, not only Raji but also Clay Matthews? Similar with Vaikune, maybe he´s a hidden talent at outside linebacker, he´s strong and agressive and has some wheels, but where is the favorable label coming out of the draft, to warrant him challenging for the starting position? Instead Robiskie, who´s slow as heck, is getting all sugar coated and prepped for starting, while the much more gifted Massaquoi must live with some kind of benefit of the doubt. I would say they were very decisive in garnering questionable talent with a penchant for having to prove themselves. If you´re asking, I think someone was hell bent on stacking the deck against the new coach Mangini. I hate self impediment.
Robiskie is “slow as heck”?? Umm, you do know he ran track at OSU, right? He’s not the fastest WR in the NFL but he’s certainly fast enough to play.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 19, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Mack wont be a guard. Tucker and Womack are better at RG than Fraley is at center.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 19, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I think someone was hell bent on stacking the deck against the new coach Mangini. I hate self impediment.
who, exactly, would be stacking the deck against mangini? mangini? as an update, since you clearly weren’t paying attention, mangini and kotnkus (sp) run the whole show, including making all the draft picks.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 19, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, Robiskie runs a 4.49 and is 6’3". That isn’t blazing fast, but it’s definitely fast enough to play WR in the NFL—especially at that size with those hands. Braylon ran his 40 in 4.46-4.48.
Massaquoi ran a 4.57 at the combine, the same location where Robiskie ran his 4.49.
Both displayed athleticism, too. Robo’s vert was 37.5 inches, and Massaquoi’s broad jump was 10’2"—both very good numbers. I think it is probably fair to say that Massaquoi is more athletic, but I really think that it isn’t by a longshot. Both are fast enough to do well in the NFL, and both do different things well (athletically speaking).
You may end up being correct about Unger or Wood, but at this point in time I view Mack as clear and away the best center in this draft, and maybe the best that has come out for quite some time. He has the lower body power to deal with those big AFC North NTs, unlike the other two—its clear as day if you watch their film. He’s also pretty darn smart—something valuable against the complex defenses of pIT and BAL.
Fraley was traded to us for a 7th round pick a few years ago. Doesn’t that say something about his value to the Eagles?
I guess what I think was decisive about the move of not taking Raji at #5 and trading down to get Mack was that Mangini and Kokinis basically said this: “We want blue-collar, hard working guys. We want intelligent guys. You had better play your tail off and prepare your tail off if you want to be a Cleveland Brown. We won’t tolerate laziness, even if you are a rare talent”. I think that’s pretty damn decisive. Raji does have rare quickness for a 330lb man, and rare potential,I’ll admit that.
In terms of the players we got, Coleman is a solid DE, and Ratliff is better than Dorsey, which isn’t saying much. Still, we did save cap room and probably picked up 2 starters and some picks.
Maiava was a 4th round pick. He shouldn’t be judged against how the other USC LBs do in the NFL, he should be judged as a 4th round pick. Kokinis and Mangini weren’t picking between USC LBs, they were picking amongst all of the players out there. If you want to compare the USC ‘backers to our picks, you have to compare them to Robiskie, Mack, and Massaquoi. Matthews may well end up being better than those three, but judging him against Maiava isn’t fair.
Mangini plays a large part in the draft. He doesn’t have the final say, but he has a big say. He’s stacking some of his own deck.
by rufio on Jun 19, 2009 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Have you ever heard of curbing bad grades. That´s what they did with the 40 times for the wide receivers at the combine. They highten the average to accomodate the slower ones, which Robiskie is. If he ran track, maybe it was the 400 or 800 because he has a long stride, a receiver needs sprinters speed.
The linebackers on the other hand all had horrible 40 times, probably so scouts would concentrate on their body of work in college and footwork.
I know people hate hearing it, because of long standing records, such as Deion Sander´s 4.23 time, but they goofed. They curbed it.
Robiskie ran the 4×100 relay for OSU on a team which placed 2nd in the Big Ten and made the NCAA relays. He was also a top high school sprinter.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 21, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
So let me get this straight: because the WRs actually timed slow, they altered the times they released to the media? And when Robiskie was clocked even faster than that at his pro day—what about that?
Sprinter’s speed is probably the least likely kind of speed to transfer to a football field, even the 100m. Races on the football field are won in much shorter distances than that. 40 yards is more applicable than 100m. Things like the short shuttle and the 3-cone drill probably apply more (and Robiskie didn’t do too horribly there). Really, what applies the most is speed with the pads on—speed on gameday.
Robiskie got open on corners from Texas, the SEC, and Vonte Davis, so I think he’ll be able to get open against #2s in the NFL. And, he’s definitely faster than a 30 year old Joe Jurevicious, who did just fine for the Browns.
Your right on most of your assertions. But from what I gathered Robiskie does not get free based on speed, but his supposed superior body positioning, which in reality will simply get him plastered. College players play with abandon, if you know when to cut or not you´ll have a few yards leeway. The NFL is less forgiving.
I like to say: Give the players every opportunity to succeed, but do not give them chances to fail. If they want to run Robiskie with the other receivers because he is exemplary on fundamentals fine. But Furrey can do that, too. Joe Jurevicious is still out there, if you´d like to revise your comparison.
The 40´s are not timed with like laser sensors, there are guys hitting a button, at the beginning and at the end. I don´t have proof, but the times for all receivers were too fast to include the variety of receivers, and the times for the linebackers were too slow to include some of them.
by mooncamping on Jun 22, 2009 6:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Since 1990 the NFL has used partial electronic timing system. It is started by hand, but the finish is electronic.
It is impossible for someone to adjust these times without the scouts knowing. A difference of .1 seconds could happen between scouts and combine, but the NFL is the legit number.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 22, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Im pretty sure that they couldnt get away with releasing false 40 times. duh
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 21, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
And in regards to what you say a Cleveland Brown is like, they´re probably capable of kicking themselves in the mouth, too. Any football player who does his homework, thus maintaining a 4.0 average is considered above average intelligent. How was Mack´s wonderlic. With preparation and given an unknown, standard IQ test, I bet Raji could lick Mack. Mack is like a lot of those California boys, instant pedigree, comes with positive descriptors.
Now you are just arguing for no reason when you have nothing to support your answer.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 21, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
You have zero idea of what you are talking about, and clearly were not paying attention to reports of Alex Mack’s visit to the Browns, where Mangini gave him his own version of an IQ test.
They took players into a room, threw a ton of plays/techniques/system-oriented information, took them out of that situation and talked to them about their hobbies, interests, and other personal things for a while, and then took them back in the room and gave them a 30ish question test on the football plays. Mack tested very well.
Also, because wonderlic scores aren’t supposed to be released, we don’t know how he did vs. Raji there. It is rumored, however, that Mack had the highest Wonderlic score among all combine participants, regardless of position.
And didnt he get that Academic Heisman or something like that.
I dont see Raji being too smart. I see him being more of a trouble maker.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 21, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, Mack did win the equivalent of the Academic Heisman.
Again, it was something probably based on grades and academics (which I think mooncamper said is easy to fudge/easy to do if you are a football player) and was probably voted on by outsiders, so I don’t know how much that means.
Regardless, Mack is/was considered questionably the smartest kid in the draft, and almost definitely the smartest kid over 300lbs in this draft.
In any event, I am done with this mini-thread.
this really shows a staggering lack of understanding of american football.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 22, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
someone like Erinie Sims (Lions) possibly riding the bench behind Julian Peterson next year.
Ernie Sims is one of the best young LB’s in football. He is not sitting on the bench next year.
Passing up B.J. Raji in the draft, to complement the best nose guard in the NFL, Shaun Rogers, is to me almost criminally negligent towards the Browns fans.
This is crazy. Raji had a ton of flags and is a boom or bust pick. I think the Browns needed a sure bet in the first round this year. Mack is going to be a stud. Oh and he costs like 45 million dollars less. No big deal.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 18, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Mack costs like 45 million dollars less, because he was pawned to prevent an immediate all pro defensive line (Rogers, Raji and whoever), or because he was chosen instead of Unger, who would have been a stalwart at center for the next decade or so. Maybe the 45 million dollars will be needed to soothe all the sour fans in some roundabout way.
Mack will make a good guard, and if so maybe a steal. And some of those guys may actually start, but do any of them get my juices pumping? The excitement factor is zilch.
And no one is being fooled, the Browns is a storied franchise with as much entitlement to good player stock as any other old franchise in the NFL. What´s the sado masochistic thrill in publicly cutting yourselves short?
I don’t care how “exciting” our draft picks are, I want players who will help us win games and Mack will do that. Almost everyone had Mack rated above Unger. He’s going to be our starting center for the next decade. Spending huge money on top 5 draft picks is not efficient, so I’m happy that we traded down to get more players and cheaper picks.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 19, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
The footage I saw he acts like a total fool after he snaps it. It´s like he goes ape**** or something. By the time the play is over he could be anywhere within a 30 yard radius. Maybe he has some berzerker genes or something. But dude, he does not have the calm demeanor of a top flight center. Maybe he doesn´t like contact. A good center, let´s be honest gets hit once in a while.
Give me a link to the tape you’ve been watching because in all the tape I’ve watched I havent seen him shy away from contact.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 21, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
The footage I saw he acts like a total fool after he snaps it. It´s like he goes ape**** or something. By the time the play is over he could be anywhere within a 30 yard radius. Maybe he has some berzerker genes or something.
This sounds like one of the best things you could read on a OL’s scouting report. A little bit of a “bull in a china shop”, maybe, but you can’t really teach nastiness.
I know. My favorite part was when he was complaining about or line being too tall.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 21, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I care about explosiveness but that isnt the same as excitement.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 19, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Mack costs like 45 million dollars less, because he was pawned to prevent an immediate all pro defensive line (Rogers, Raji and whoever),
BJ Raji will not be an immediate All-Pro. I promise you that. I believe (without looking up) that the last rookie DL to make All-Pro was Jevon Kearse?
or because he was chosen instead of Unger, who would have been a stalwart at center for the next decade or so
So Unger and Raji are Pro Bowlers, and Alex Mack is not. Tell me more man from the future!
Mack will make a good guard, and if so maybe a steal. And some of those guys may actually start, but do any of them get my juices pumping? The excitement factor is zilch.
I have read NOWHERE that Mack will play Guard. I have read that he can, but he will be a Center for the Browns. If your not excited about building up an offensive line, then you should research on how good teams are built. The Browns had a great offense two years ago because the O-Line finally was a strength. Football is about blocking and tackling.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jun 19, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it would be really hard for Raji to be an immediate all-pro.
Even if it were likely for a DT, he’d still have to overcome learning a new scheme—and one that the veterans don’t know either. GB is transitioning to the 3-4 so none of them know it.
Also, he’s going to have to answer questions about his motor, intelligence, and work ethic.
Possible, but certainly not a lock.
Here´s the all pro line I´m talking about:
-left tackle: Joe Thomas
-left guard: Alex Mack
-center (for now): Hank Fraley
-right guard: George Foster
-right tackle: (absolute necessity to put this wiley veteran where the quarterback can see him) Ryan Tucker.
It´s pretty simple, you know how you want it, and if it fails any other way, you have bragging rights.
You can´t cry about spilled milk, but you can cry over the cats lapping it up.
Not even close. Where is Steinbach huh? How will Foster will be our starting RG over Steinbach and Womack. Foster is a backup RT. Here is how I see the line;
Thomas
Steinbach
Mack
Tucker
St. Clair
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 21, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
So you have a line with no one shorter than 6foot6? They´re all offensive tackles. Do you want them to win the street basketball tourney or something?
Wow. You’re complaining that our line would be too tall? Actually Mack is 6’4 and St. Clair is 6’5 but there is nothing wrong at all with a tall line.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 21, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you just have that memorized or something?
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 21, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I´m not an athletics fascist, but given a choice my center is 6´0, my guards are 6´2 and my tackles 6´4 max. Let´s not forget the prime requisite for unmovable people, a low center of gravity. The smaller ones tend to be scrappier, too. Big guys do tend to have gentle temperaments, just comes with the territory of growing up a big guy.
O-lines should definetly not be that short. Average centers and guards are about 6’4 and tackles are taller.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 22, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Well the problem is that typically guys that (relatively) short usually have shorter arms (when it comes to 300+lb OL). On the inside, you want a guy who is really, really wide, strong, agile, and has long arms. Height isn’t a huge issue.
You have to play low—especially in the running game, which is why sometimes shorter guys have the advantage on the inside. Ideally, you want to be the low man, pressing up/forward into the DL. If he gets under your pads and up into your chest, the best you can do is lean on him to try to push him back. You might end up moving backward to try to regain leverage, which is usually bad.
Note Joe Thomas getting up and under the DL here:
He is probably pass blocking in this picture, not needing to drive the DL forward, just to stop him from getting to the QB. Note how Thomas’ long arms are inside the DL’s and he can’t really do much to disengage from the block.
OL who are high-cut and play kinda high are usually better OTs because they are 1. typically dealing with smaller, quicker guys that are easier to run block and 2. those taller, longer guys typically have long arms and can use them to “ride pass rushers past the pocket” (make rushers take a wider, longer path to the QB, while remaining anchored inside against the double-move). The very best OT have those long arms and can get lower than the DL to push them around in the running game, too.
Leonard Davis (RG), Marc Colombo (RT) and Flozell Adams (LT). Note the increasing height, leg length, and arm length.
Mack gets pretty low.
by rufio on Jun 23, 2009 4:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Longer arms weaken easier, and the longer the arms are the easier they are to knock away. A taller guy can not get under you, he can only lean more, which makes his torso and center of gravity manipulatable. If you get a mean defensive lineman, which according to some sources is how they should be, a tall person with a bigger body is easier to beat up, there is simply more areas to manipulate. I guarantee you, if you have the luxury “to work the offensive lineman over”, instead of just engaging them or trying to get passed them, he will become pliable.
Is there a way to permanently block a specific user’s posts? Like, they don’t show up at all if I’m logged in, it doesn’t say “one new post” and I don’t have to waste my time clicking on it to read drivel like this?
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
Longer arms weaken easier, and the longer the arms are the easier they are to knock awa
What in the world would make you think that, and what evidence do you have for it? If that were true, then the ideal O-lineman would look like a T-Rex, right? Your arguments sound like the criticisms of Ed “Too Tall” Jones when he came into the league more than 30 years ago. They were wrong then, and they’re still wrong.
A taller guy can not get under you, he can only lean more,
Again, why would this be true? Are you assuming that tall people can’t bend their knees or flex? There is a good reason that the average height for NFL lineman continues to rise. They have bigger frames, are able to put on additional bulk, and tend to be stronger. If you look at NFL rosters, I think you’ll find very few lineman as short as 6’2", and virtually none shorter than that. As a guess, I would say the average is now closer to 6’5". Let’s give the coaches and FO people some credit and assume that they are choosing these guys for a reason.
OK, I’m replying to my own post. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that the Browns start Mack at center, Tucker and Thomas at tackles, Steinbach and Hadnot at guards. Tucker, Steinbach, and Thomas are all 6’6". Mack is listed at 6’4", and Hadnot would be the dwarf of the bunch at 6’2". Would anybody argue that Hadnot is the most effective player in this group because he is the shortest?
Longer arms “weaken easier” if you play with poor technique and/or are a pansy. Joe Thomas is not a pansy.
You can’t “get under” someone if you can’t reach their torso because their arms are so long.
Also, I just showed photographic evidence of Joe Thomas getting under a shorter DL. It can be done.
The best OL are tall and have long arms and play low and play with great technique. That’s the ideal combination.
The other thing that seems obvious to me in a lot of you guys comments is that you always mention collateral. You know “we got this guy like four years ago and he only cost us a seventh round draft pick”. It seems you don´t care about performance, but only about verifiable facts. You don´t seem to trust the judgement of the scouts and coaches, you act like it´s your money.
I tell you, Anderson´s value is wasting f.e., you´ve allowed a guy with a ProBowl player paycheck to wallow away until he is now nothing more than short change. Meanwhile time is a ticking for Brady Quinn, valuable playing and learning time was lost on him, his learning curve is damaged. It would seem that what goes into Cleveland can only leave flawed, and dare I say it, as a bargain priced value for other franchises.
After watching Favre’s stink job down the stretch for the Jets, I’ll pass. If you give me the Hall of Fame Packers version, I would take it in a second. Players don’t last forever
I would play him on a cart and with his throwing arm tied behind his back. It´s frigging Brett Favre!
That’s ridiculous. Do you want to bring in Joe Montana and Jerry Rice? How about Jim Brown? Let’s just bring in a bunch of Hall of Famers because they’re “big name” players and see how that works out.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 22, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions
this is so awesome b/c it literally makes no sense whatsoever. bravo.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 22, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Leggett is really fast. Do u think he could return kicks
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 21, 2009 6:40 PM EDT reply actions
Good point. Forgot about him. I have never seen him try to field a kick, so I don’t know. Hubbard would be a potential choice too, speaking of potentially cut-able WRs who are physically gifted. Imagine 6’3", 220 with track-runner speed coming at you as a dime DB…yikes.
Kick returns are arguably the best place to let “sprinter’s speed” show on the football field. You usually can get up to speed a little and if you are a long-strider, that means you can play to your strengths.
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