Cleveland Browns Training Camp 2009: Fullback Preview (Will Ali Make the Cut?)
by Chris Pokorny on Jun 26, 2009 12:00 AM EDT
in 2009 Training Camp
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PrintWith the running back training camp preview, you sort of get a two-for-one. With only two fullbacks on the roster, it wasn't worth giving the position its own three-to-four-day period. Nonetheless, you'll still have two full days to talk all you want about Lawrence Vickers and Charles Ali, as well as continuing the discussion on the running backs.
Romeo Crennel did a horrible job utilizing the roster he was provided with. The fullback position was included in that. Vickers was once praised by Crennel and Savage as a huge asset to the offense -- yet how many times did we run the ball with Jamal Lewis without Vickers in the backfield? Or, how many times were we struggling to protect the quarterback, but Charlies Ali would motion out of the backfield to the top of the screen?
Eric Mangini had a reliable fullback last year in veteran Tony Richardson. Richardson mostly did what he has always done -- blocked. It should be noted that the Jets only carried one fullback on their roster though, which could leave Ali shafted.
1. LAWRENCE VICKERS - STARTING FULLBACK
Lawrence Vickers (#47)Height: 6-0
Weight: 250
College: Colorado
Experience: 3 years
Stats: 5-of-6 in short runs
Is Vickers still a future Pro Bowler, as he looked to be two years ago? That'll depend on how he is utilized by Mangini. Vickers missed four games last season, allowing Ali to gain some experience in his place. People have suggested before that Vickers should be given more carries as almost a "third running back", like some teams do. He has the speed to pick up some nice yards, but I see Mangini keeping his non-blocking offensive involvement to a minimum.
I'm not going to do a specific worst attribute/best attribute for the fullbacks; I tried coming up with something, and the categories I came up with seemed a bit "forced" just for the sake of trying to find something.
Vickers seemed to improve upon his third-down situations last year.
1. 3rd-and-1: 2 yard gain (first down)
2. 2nd-and-1: 4 yard gain (first down)
3. 3rd-and-1: 2 yard gain (first down)
4. 3rd-and-1: No gain (led to punt)
5. 4th-and-1: 1 yard gain (first down)
6. 2nd-and-1: 2 yard gain (first down)
Five out of six isn't bad, and if I recall correctly, that is better than his 2007 campaign. Vickers also has pretty good hands; although we might not be running fullback screens as often as I'd like, his hands are definitely an asset when you get down on the goal line off of a playaction pass.
Job Security: A+
Player Quality: B+
Final Roster Odds: 100%
2. CHARLES ALI - BACKUP FULLBACK
Charles Ali (#41)Height: 6-2
Weight: 255
College: Arkansas-Pine
Experience: 2 years
Note: Special teams
As an undrafted rookie free agent two years, Ali made the roster. He returned last season and ended up playing in all 16 games. Most of his action came on special teams, but when Vickers was hurt, he gained some starting experience. As a blocker, he wasn't elite, but he wasn't a weakness either. Throughout the season, Ali was praised by the coaches as another coveted player.
With a new coaching staff, it doesn't come down to talent as much as it does a numbers game. Personally, I am in favor of having two fullbacks on the roster. In a big game, I always want the luxury of having a backup ready to enter the game. A player like Noah Herron might be able to fill that role temporarily, but he doesn't have the same bulk that Ali does. Mangini carried one fullback when he coached the Jets last season; it's hard to believe that he'd change his mind and definitively want two fullbacks. Ali's chances will likely come down to whether or not special teams coordinator Brad Seely wants him on the roster or not. I say he'll make it.
Player Quality: C+
Final Roster Odds: 60%
FB Position Quality (Overall): B
Expanding more on keeping two fullbacks, another option is to just consider one of your tight ends a backup fullback. Darnell Dinkins could have been an emergency fullback last year; could Robert Royal or Steve Heiden be given that consideration this year? Two years ago, the Jets did have two fullbacks on their roster, but both of them were listed as hybrid fullbacks/tight ends.
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Lawrence Vickers appears to be a versatile guy, who could help out more in the passing game and by running the ball. He is a pretty good blocker, too, but he isn’t Tony Richardson-/Lorenzo Neal-good.
So, based on all of the talk about having a flexible offense that can run or pass to win, that will find a defense’s weakness and attack it, and that is versatile, you would think we would look to get more out of Vickers this year.
We don’t necessarily have to actually get him the ball a lot. We absolutely should at least use the threat of getting him the ball to keep the opposing defense guessing. If defenses don’t pay attention to Vickers as a threat, then we should get him the ball. If they pay attention to him, it makes moving the ball easier for everyone else.
As for Herron/Ali on the roster, I think Herron makes it. I really think they are about equal in terms of value to the team, and if we have 5 spots for RBs/FBs I’ll bet on the guy that Mangini and Kotuknus (sp) brought in.
If I could, I would have 20 fullbacks and 20 linebackers on the team, they´re the ones that win games.
Listen, I´m sorry, but how you could arrive at making it seem logical, that having more than one fullback could be a luxury, and that it may be wise to use a tight-end instead (which is a totally different body and skill set), is just extremely baffling to me.
We need five more fullbacks, to get the best playing.
To contribute to that effect, I would call certain slots filled. How many defensive backs are we entertaining?
If you need an extra reason, I have never met a good fullback who wasn´t good at also playing linebacker, they just don´t do it so they can concentrate on creating havoc on offense.
If your rationale is general knowledge, and like I said how you could ever arrive there is just grrrrrrr, then we need a definate shift in attitude.
I didn’t defend putting a tight end as the second fullback. But, Mangini has done it before, and there are many teams in the past that have done the same thing as well. I stated in my post that I wanted Ali on the roster.
Your reasons might have some intrigue to them, but do you honestly believe that any NFL head coach is going to adapt your philosophies? If coaches haven’t been doing it, they are not going to suddenly start doing it. Your comment could easily apply to any team in the NFL; but in reality, we pretty much know that Mangini will keep two fullbacks at most. Can you comment on what our situation will end up like, and not what you hope it would end up like in a dream scenario for you?
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Jun 26, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
The Redskins already started doing it last year, Portis stepping in and out of the tracks of whatever fullback was in there with him, and Portis is by no means a small runningback, he might count as a fast fullback. The Titans and the Panthers had success with at least a tight fullback/halfback combo. It´s going in that direction. The reason I´m so adamant about taking it all the way with two fullbacks, is that the first to employ old school successfully will look like a frigging genius.
Everybody is using one runningback no matter how slow or big that individual might be. Where is the realism? Barry Sanders, the first to do this successfully, was extraordinary.
We should be ahead of the pack on this. Nobody likes copycats, and that´s what we´ll be, because once enough clubs start doing it so will we, the Browns mentality lends itself towards smashmouth anyways.
My comment could apply to anyone in the NFL, right. But I stated it here first and exclusively, so maybe someone can jingle the grapevine. I´m a new Browns fan, and I want to be a good one. Consider it my welcome gift.
If you want me to comment on how our situation will end up, if we don´t institute something groundbreaking like I offered?
O.k. The defenses won´t rush tha precollapsed line anymore, they will staunchly defend the line of scrimmage, resulting in no discrepancies or obvious holes, big Jamal Lewis will hit an impenetrable line, he does not have the speed to break it outside. Harrison is even less assertive, zip, zilch. We´ll end up using a combination of either Vickers or Ali, or alternating, blocking for James Davis. Davis is a football enthusiasts runningback, he´ll do his very best, he will seem great because his fundamentals are great, he hits the hole, follows his blocking. He will have gains up to 10 yards, but he will not break free, he is simply too average for the NFL. He will be lauded for his 120 yard games and being such a little spunky, but it´s nothing to get excited about. Any fundamentally sound halfback, with good blocking and enough handoffs will break 100 yards. We´ll end up rewarding him with a lucrative contract for just average work.
None of these halfbacks will get us into the playoffs, much less contending for the AFC crown.
The two fullback approach will pound the line of scrimmage until it softens up, you´ll see, the fullbacks will start getting 10 or 15 yards instead of their customary 1 or 2 yards.
Why don´t you realise that you have to send some force at the defense?
by mooncamping on Jun 26, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
What’s next? The 3 fullback approach and no tight end? Certainly with 2 fullbacks blazing the way for the ball carrier, the defense would crumble thinking about the impending impact. Def Cos would never know how to counteract this force, except to put everyone in the box. Every sports columnist would be quoting old Woody Hayes axioms. The forward pass would become extinct save for the 6 shuffle passes during the game to change things up.
Good idea! Then you really wouldn’t need a quarterback, so just replace him with ….. oh, I know! A fullback! Think of the fear that would inspire!
The best was the BQ interview after OTA’s where he explained the difference between himself and DA
“I am more of a weight room giuy, DA is a golf guy”
by Roger Dorn on Jun 26, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You know what, you´re right. The presence of two kick*** fullbacks in the backfield may require a more staunch quarterback, otherwise we´ll get nothing done, because he´ll be so intimidated by real football players.
Fullback on the o-line? Tempting, but I think we can afford to feed some tall boys.
What happened to you wanting a short offensive line?
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 27, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Please just shut up. You’re not funny
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 26, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Another nice write-up, Chris. Please keep ’em coming.
A couple of years ago it seemed that Ali got a lot of praise early on, but then faded from sight. I was never sure if that was due to his ability or the management at the time.
Perhaps whether or not Ali stays on the roster may depend not only on whether Mangini thinks he has a replacement blocker from another position, but how badly he wants to keep the other RBs on the roster. If he doesn’t want to risk trying to get Davis to the practice squad, then does the one-FB scenario perhaps become a bit more likely?
Tooting my own horn here...
I thought it was cool that I made a random roster odds percentage projection for Charles Ali (60%), and the poll closed with 60% of the voters believing Ali will be the backup fullback.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
I think vicker/ali is a damned good tandem to have on any team at FB
by North Coast Flea on Jul 22, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe this post is dead.
But I neglected to say who I want for training camp:
1. Owen Schmitt, Seattle Seahawks
2. Kyle Eckel, Philadelphia Eagles
3. Byron Storer, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
4. Jon Bradley, Detroit Lions
5. Zac Keasey, San Francisco 49ers
6. Nate Ilaoa, Columbus Destroyers
just a wild guess and I’m not trying to encourage mooncamping but this is probably a list written up by order of interest, not that he/she wants all of them on the team, or am I giving too much credit to moon?
by North Coast Flea on Jul 21, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
or am I giving too much credit to moon?
Trust me. Waaaaaaaaaay too much credit.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 22, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
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