Latest Mangini Presser: Wimbley Growing, Insight on QB's
Cleveland Browns head coach Eric Mangini met with the media again on Thursday for a press conference. Here are some of his statements, along with my thoughts:
(On how much Kamerion Wimbley can grow at outside linebacker) - "He has definitely done a lot of positive things at outside linebacker. He had a couple sacks against us his rookie season, and I think another one, one of the other times we played against the Browns in the past. What we are trying to do with Kamerion, like with all the defensive players, is the building of flexibility. Work him both on the right, on the left, work him at sub at different positions, so we can continue to build upon the base that he has and expand it. The more versatile he is, the more roles we can give him, the different matchups we can create. That is something that we worked hard on with Bryan Thomas who was another defensive end that made the transition and it's important."
(On if the defense can get Wimbley to be an impact player like he was in his rookie season) - "What I am looking for from Kamerion is not just impact in terms of rushing the passer, but impact as an outside linebacker in this system. Sacks sometimes come in bunches. Sometimes there's a bunch of them and sometimes you go on a little bit of a drought. The key thing isn't to focus on the volume, the numbers. The key thing is to focus on the process. That's what we are doing with Kamerion and with all of the guys, is to focus on the things that he can do better as a pass rusher. The things that he can do better in the running game. How to vary up his pass rush and it's an ongoing process. I stress, it's not just Kamerion with that.
We are always trying to give; here is your core move, what's your counter off of that move, what's your secondary move, what's your counter off of that move. The ability to move the player from right to left, get in the sub package, maybe have him as a walk around type of guy. All of those things can produce sacks. All of those things can take advantage of strengths. In order to take advantage of those strengths, you have to build in that flexibility and that is something that we are focusing on from a scheme perspective, and also individually identifying strengths and weaknesses, really working on the weaknesses and really trying to complement the strengths."
(On if Wimbley can be versatile and play multiple positions) - "That's what we are trying to find out. I think that he has worked hard at learning the different positions. With Bryan Thomas, he went from defensive end to outside linebacker, and then he was able to do a good job there. He carved out a role in sub where sometimes he was defensive end; sometimes he was a walk around guy. I think those are two guys from similar backgrounds. So my anticipation is, with hard work and building on the reps that you get and anything is possible, but you still have to see it."
Thoughts: It would be nice to see Wimbley back on track, and to be something other than just a pass-rushing linebacker. Mangini indicated that they will focus on things such as Wimbley's counter and second moves, something that has been a significant problem for him. The last regime failed miserably at getting through to him; hopefully the new one has better luck.
As far as seeing Wimbley at other positions, it's hard to say. I was for that last season, but now, I would like him to focus on his current position under the assumption that legitimate "coaching" will be taking place.
(On if Bowens' main spot will be at outside linebacker) - "That was his starting point in New York, but he did end up starting five games for us at inside linebacker and did a nice job. The more that these guys can play inside or outside, now you are just moving the parts around. If they are looking for Bowens outside and now he is moved to inside and the inside linebacker is moved to outside and you just keep moving the pieces and things don't make sense. Now, its post snap decisions, its tendency breakers, but that has to be built. You can't just throw it out there."
Thoughts: With all of the love for D'Qwell Jackson and a somewhat open outside linebacker position opposite Wimbley, I'd expect David Bowens to stay on the outside.
(On what criteria he uses to judge the quarterbacks) - "The big one for me is huddle presence and the ability to run the offense. Who can most effectively run the offense? Who can look at the defense, understand what the coverage is and go to the right place with the ball? Who can see a blitz look and put us into the right play? Who can do the "check with me's," where you have two plays called and understand that this is the better of the two selections? Those things are huge because there is always going to be a right answer. The ability for us offensively, to get to the right answer, in a short amount of time, under pressure, that's what's going to drive the decision."
(On if he can see that from last year's tapes) - "It's harder because you don't know what the player was told. You don't know what the thought process was going into the game. You don't know what they were facing defensively. If you're projecting, sometimes you are way off base. You think that he should have gone somewhere with the ball, but when you actually understand what was being taught or asked or anticipated, it's really not true."
Thoughts: Derek Anderson: "Can't I just go out there and rope the ball to the receiver?" I understand Mangini's point about not being able to scrutinize every detail of the tapes, but there were many "what the ..." moments for Mr. Anderson last season. Brady Quinn had some of those moments in the Buffalo game too, but Anderson was the one who had more opportunities.
(On if he will scrimmage any other teams) - "We are not going to do that this year, no."
(On if he is against scrimmages) - "No, I am not generally against it. I've done it, worked against some other teams over the course of my career. I think there is some real value to that. I don't think it's important either way."
(On if a scrimmage will take away from the learning process) - "Sometimes it's that. Sometimes it's the days that the other teams want to do it just don't really fit into your installation progression. It's got to fit right for both teams for us to do it."
Thoughts: Former head coach Butch Davis was the last Browns coach to have opposing teams come in during training camp. I was always a big advocate of these scrimmages, so it's disappointing that Mangini isn't instituting it. Hopefully the Family Fun Day training camp session still takes place at Cleveland Browns Stadium.
(On if Mack is in a tough situation because Hank Fraley was voted a team captain last season) - "There is always going to be competition every year for every spot. The veterans have been in positions where new guys are brought in. For rookies, this is a little bit new for them. I go back to Otis (Smith). It was every year someone was brought in to beat him out and every year he beat them out. Each guy has a chance to prove who should be the best player and the best player will play. That being said, with all of the competitions going on, I expect it to be a spirit of helping each other get better. That was the nice thing in New York with the quarterback competition; because those guys went out and worked hard every day then they were in the meeting rooms helping each other get better. That to me is what a teammate should do."
Thoughts: I think it's clear that Alex Mack will start at center, but you never know. Based on history, odds seem to indicate that a starting offensive lineman will go down in camp.
(On Donte' Stallworth falling behind on the field) - "There is a lot of information going in and this is a nice time to provide a base of information. Moving to training camp, the one that veteran players have over rookie players, and I keep trying to explain this to our rookies, is they have things that they can apply back to, or look back to. So, "40 Gut" is the same as what we called it last year, which was "Play X" or something they did with another team. That's how a lot of veterans learn; they apply concepts to concepts they already know. Those neurons are already in place. The rookies, they are building neurons, so it takes a little longer."
Thoughts: I really don't sympathize with Stallworth, but I can't really say how I would feel if he were back practicing with the team. As a receiver, he can still bring something to the table despite how much of a complete, 99% waste he was last season. I think we've acquired enough talent in the offseason to push him aside though.
(On if his past defensive experiences will help in making a quarterback decision) - "One of the problems defensively is not knowing who the starting quarterback is going to be. That is always a huge problem defensively. I hated when I didn't know who their starting quarterback for the other team was. It's a huge, huge headache. From my perspective, I think where I can add value to the quarterbacks and to the offense is explaining why. Why does this route hurt the defense? Why does this play hurt the defense? That is what I am constantly trying to do. When I sit in that room say ok, here's what we are doing fellas and this is why it's a problem. If you do it this way, this is the bind you are going to put them into. I think that hopefully adds something to the system."
(On if both quarterbacks could see playing time) - "I would anticipate having a starter and moving forward with that starter, but I don't rule out anything."
Thoughts: I don't see this being a two-quarterback system. It's still Brady Quinn's job to lose.
Look forward to a piece on Browns safety Abram Elam soon.
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Comments
Is that photographic evidence of Jerome Harrison effectively pass blocking against a legit ILB!?
by rufio on Jun 6, 2009 2:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope this means good things for Harrison and not bad things for Barton.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 6, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff, For the most Mangini answer questions and gives at least some insight, where I for one never knew where Romeo was coming from.
I still think this team will surprise and be in every game.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Jun 6, 2009 7:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely! I’m feeling the rumblings of a great season. It may not reflect in wins, but we will at least be much better than last season!
by Big Baby Rogers on Jun 6, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldnt want Wimbley and Bowens playing any ILB
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 6, 2009 9:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I am okay with it on 3rd down. If we are lining up 3 or 4 pass rushers in the 4 LB positions, it will be much more difficult for the offense to know where the blitz is coming from. Having a guy like Bowens and potentially Veikune able to line up inside, would allow us to have Wimbley, Hall, Bowens, and Veikune on the field all at the same time. All 4 of those guys are expected to be able to rush the passer
by Roger Dorn on Jun 6, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think a 3rd down situation is probably more of what Mangini was referring to.
Wimbley is already good at dropping in to coverage, and I don’t think he would be especially terrible at tackling a RB from the middle, so where he lines up really doesn’t matter to me. In theory it would only be a change in the angles he has to take to drop into coverage, blitz a certain gap, or get to the ball carrier. The % of times he does those things from ILB vs. OLB wouldn’t need to change unless Mangini made it so.
Position won’t necessarily dictate what he does after the snap, so as long as the movement benefits us and not the other team (i.e. WImbley won’t be asked to do something he can’t simply because of a change in position) I would be happy to see him moved around. He could theoretically line up at “SS” and come up into the box and play like a LB.
I love hearing that we might have a “walk around guy” on D. Movement before the snap to confuse the offense? Unheard of!
by rufio on Jun 6, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. I think this is what Mangini is looking for when he says that he wants “versatility”. Someone that can line up and rush from any spot
by Roger Dorn on Jun 6, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did Romeo just forget how to do that sort of thing while he was here, or was Belichick really hands-on as the head coach in NE?
by rufio on Jun 7, 2009 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please dont start the Position won’t necessarily dictate what he does after the snap again.
Is a walk around guy just someone who changes positions a lot?
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 8, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he was referring to a guy who will line up somewhere, and then pre-snap he would show blitz, then back out again, then move to the other side of the formation, then back again, kind of like what Polamalu does sometimes. I think we also did this with Rogers in out “UFO” formation last year. Just kind of prowling around so you have even less of an idea of what he will try to do after the snap.
Just my interpretation, though.
by rufio on Jun 8, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So are you saying that Wimbley would be the walk around guy?
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 8, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think I have the information I would need to make that call. My guess is that he could do some of that. Of our LBs, he’d probably be the one I would pick.
by rufio on Jun 8, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a somewhat related note, I was excited to hear a little about the defense from the LBs on cleveland.com:
“We will be smart and we will be aggressive,” linebacker David Bowens said
I like hearing the word “aggressive”.
“We’re a multiple-scheme defense,” said linebacker Eric Barton. “We’re going to try to attack the offense’s weaknesses, however we have to line up or cover, whatever we have to do.”
This probably hints at some hybridity between “4-3” and “3-4” schemes (one-gapping and two-gapping). How much of each we do and how many people’s hands will actually be on the ground is anyone’s guess. I am a little excited about Rob Ryan’s connection to the 46 defensive formation, too. Rob’s father, Buddy Ryan ran the 46 effectively in the 80s and probably 90s and his brother Rex Ryan ran some 46 stuff in Baltimore.
“It’s pretty much the same 3-4 [defense], but we have a lot of different things we’re doing with different looks,” Jackson said. “…As of right now, I see a little bit more pressure, little more in the attack mode.”
I am a little disappointed that this defense is “pretty much the same 3-4”, but I am absolutely positive we didn’t open up the whole playbook last year during games. Hopefully we are constantly a little more in attack mode, and use some new things. Unless there are several LBs/DL who will make a much bigger impact this year than last, I don’t see us having the personnel to really go into a full-on attack mode.
I wonder if Mangini got mad at either player for talking to the media about the defense.
by rufio on Jun 6, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m also a bit disappointed. I was honestly hoping for a hybrid defense like Baltimore. Maybe I was assuming that’s what we were getting because of the ‘Ryan’ name. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the hybrid defense rely heavily on a hybrid OLB? I’m still holding out hope that Wimbley will make a drastic upswing. Maybe we could utilize him more in a hybrid defense.
I still think that the defense will be better due to the talent that we’ve brought in this off season, but we still need a better scheme…
by Big Baby Rogers on Jun 6, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually don’t expect them to say much beyond that we are running different variations out of the 3-4. Anything more would be too much information for the opposition
by Roger Dorn on Jun 6, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t be surprised if those two were already in trouble.
by rufio on Jun 7, 2009 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A true “hybrid” defense relies on multiple “hybrid”-type players. Guys like Seymor or Dockett from AZ are big, fast, and skilled enough that they can act as a penetrating, attacking DT on one play, and then a stout, 2-gapping DE the next. LB/DEs like Wimbley are the other type of “hybrid” guy you’d really want.
I think the bare minimum to run an effective “hybrid” scheme is probably two of those guys who are starting-caliber. With Baltimore, Kelly Gregg is usually going to have the same job (eat blockers/space) on a given play and Ray Lewis is likely going to have the same job (tackle people) on any given play, but just about every other guy in their front 7 can be doing one of multiple things after the snap.
I just don’t see us having that type of front 7 yet. I like Veikune because he seems like he has/will have the versatility to play a variety of positions: 3-4 ILB, 4-3 SLB, 3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE (but even in the best imaginable scenario he wouldn’t be that good as soon as this year). Wimbley should have that sort of versatility already. An in shape and under 320lb Corey Williams might be quick enough to be a penetrating type DT, too. Rogers could be an attacking DT or very stout DE if we had someone else to play NT. That’s about all we got, though, and that’s a lot of maybe’s and probably not’s.
We should be able to use Wimbley a lot even if we run a “normal” 3-4. Romeo and Mel just didn’t feel like it. And they let him go 3 years in the NFL without a counter move. Mangini talked about “core move”, counter, “secondary move”, counter. Kam is 1/4 there. He just has to become more of a threat if we are going to have a good defense this year. It sounds like Mangini is already making him do new things, which is great.
I would be willing to bet pretty heavily that the scheme will be better than last year. We might not look like the Giants or the Ravens, but we don’t have that kind of front 7 personnel either.
by rufio on Jun 7, 2009 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we run a hybrid, aquiring Ruud, The Boulder, and Veikune makes more sense.
I dont understand why we would put Rogers at DE, but if we did I wonder if Rubin or Leonard would be good NTs.
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 8, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rogers is quick enough to shoot gaps. In the situation I was talking about, he would line up at “DE” (probably in the 3 or 4 technique range) and then either behave like a “3-4 DE” and 2-gap (pretty much exactly what he already does as a NT, just against different OL) or he could behave like a “4-3 DT” and shoot a gap en route to the QB (think Warren Sapp).
I believe the Ravens do this with Ngata all the time. Guys like Rogers and Ngata are such freaks because they are as big as they are and as quick as they are.
Rubin is alright at the NT, especially for short stretches, IMO. I am not as high on Leonard.
by rufio on Jun 8, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who would you rather have between Ngata and Rodgers?
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 8, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For one game, Rogers. Ngata is quite a bit younger, though and I think he would probably be the guy if I was drafting either of them today—purely based on age.
by rufio on Jun 8, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just thought I’d ask. I’d go for Ngata as well. Pretty much the same reason as rufio.
by tjk_doc on Jun 10, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea it depends on the question. If we are talking for just this next season, I might be inclined to take Rogers, but if we are discussing remaining career than Ngata is the safer bet
by Roger Dorn on Jun 10, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is not to say that there is a clear cut answer to this question. Anyone arguing either way is just biased
by Roger Dorn on Jun 10, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also a debate at ESPN.com
I think Walker kinda backs out of that debate. Ngata is an easy choice because of age vs Hampton and Rogers, but the real question is who the better player is right now. I’m still going Rogers.
by rufio on Jun 11, 2009 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Walker seems to go out of his way to avoid coming off as biased since he lives in Cleveland
by Roger Dorn on Jun 11, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Traitor! Delete this comment before those idiots at the Ravens blog see this!
by Big Baby Rogers on Jun 10, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Do you think that Wimbley would be more effective in a hybrid defense, or is he just a bust? I tend to believe that Wimbley would be an excellent hybrid OLB/DE. If he had been drafted by the Giants or Ravens, he would have probably been much more successful. The problem is that we don’t have anyone to develop him. I was hoping that McGinest would help him along, but that didn’t happen.
by Big Baby Rogers on Jun 10, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wimbley needs more moves and more intensity while pass rushing regardless of where people are lining him up or what they are calling his position. He dropped into coverage for us under Romeo, and he came after the passer under Romeo. He lined up as a ROLB under Romeo and he put his hand on the ground in nickel packages under Romeo. He has already been doing a lot of “hybrid” things, and he’s one of the reasons we were mentioned in the article on hybrid defenses.
I don’t think simply moving him would help. I do think coaching him to be more aggressive and asking more out of him than Romeo did will help.
If Kam went to the Giants or Ravens, I think he would have been better, but both of those teams are really deep in the front 7, so he would have had time to earn a starting job and he would have learned from some of the best in the game about how to do that in the NFL. For us, he walked into a starting job and success as a rookie, then encountered some adversity his second year. Last year was the real disappointment in my mind: how do the defensive coaches not get on him to learn some new moves or to play like his hair is on fire when he was really one of two guys who could put pressure on the QB for us? Why did he not go look at film of how people shut him down in 2007 and then come up with a way to get beyond that?
All the physical tools are there, and he is still young, so I am not calling him a bust yet. Some think a player needs 3 years to earn the bust label, and if that was your time limit, it would be hard not to say he’s a bust. To me, this year is the make or break year for Wimbley.
by rufio on Jun 11, 2009 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is our Nickel package? 3-3 or 4-2
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jun 11, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Romeo did some of both. I don’t know what % of the time we ran either of them. If I had to guess, I would say we ran a 4-2-5 more at about a 2:1 ratio.
We also ran a 0-6-5 or something like that a very low % of the time. Rogers lined up as a LB and all of the LBs just constantly moved around and about 4 of them blitzed. Imagine trying to anchor against Rogers when he has 4 yards to get a head of steam…yikes.
by rufio on Jun 11, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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