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Cleveland Browns Training Camp 2009: Offensive Line Preview (Part 1)

We're staying in the trenches still, but this time on the opposite side of the line. In 2007, our offensive line was tremendous compared to the previous eight years. Our starting quarterback was sacked less than once per game (14 times in 16 games), something that usually sounds like a Peyton Manning statistic. Our line did not specialize in the running game, but they still helped pave the way for a 1,300 yard season for Jamal Lewis.

Last year, things got much, much worse. Derek Anderson was sacked 14 times, but in just 10 games. That's still not a bad number, but the stats don't show how often Anderson was drilled by a defender, causing a desperation throw that would only lead to disaster. Lewis was getting hit in the backfield far too often.

When Eric Mangini took over the Jets, he made a commitment to the offensive line by drafting the likes of D'Brickashaw Ferguson and Nick Mangold in the same season. He already had a stud left tackle on the Browns roster and a solid left guard, but the rest of the line to the right of them was shaky.

Gone is Kevin Shaffer. In come veterans Floyd Womack and John St. Clair. In comes rookie center Alex Mack. And, waiting in the wings is the one and only Ryan Tucker. The offensive line is shaping up to be pretty darn good, but with a plan to become a unit that excels in the power running game.

Today, in Part 1, I will cover seven players who are competing for five spots. Tomorrow, the other six offensive linemen on the roster will be covered.

1. JOE THOMAS - STARTING LEFT TACKLE

8257_mediumJoe Thomas (#73)
Height:
6-6
Weight: 305
College: Wisconsin
Experience: 3 years
Note: All-around beast

After a Pro Bowl rookie season in 2007, Joe Thomas earned the same honors in 2008. It didn't seem like he played as well this past season, although he wasn't anywhere close to being terrible. He remained our best offensive lineman throughout the season. If anything, his struggles were a combination of the products around him struggling or being out with injuries.

The Browns have had a lot of high draft picks turn out to be busts, and a lot of left tackles taken early have ended up being nothing more than average. We were very fortunate to have the No. 3 pick in 2007, because we shouldn't have to worry about this position for about a decade. What should we look forward to with Thomas in training camp? Just don't pull a LeCharles Bentley, and everything should be fine. No, not just fine. Great.

Shaun Rogers is our best defensive player, and Joe Thomas is our best offensive player. It's good to have those foundations set in place in the trenches.

Job Security: A+
Player Quality: A+
Final Roster Odds: 100%


2. ERIC STEINBACH - STARTING LEFT GUARD

6369_mediumEric Steinbach (#65)
Height:
6-6
Weight: 295
College: Iowa
Experience: 7 years
Note: Told to beef up, but not to shut up

I don't buy in to the reports from earlier in the offseason that Eric Steinbach could end up being a surprise cut. The rumor started due to Steinbach not being the type of "big" offensive lineman that Mangini would like. After Mangini asked Steinbach to add a few pounds, more fuel was added to the fire.

Any way you look at it though, I don't see how any of the above would cause Mangini to cut our best interior offensive lineman.

I don't know what Steinbach weighs in at right now; the roster page says 295, but he reportedly added 12 pounds  back at the beginning of June, and Terry Pluto indicated that he was somewhere in the 270-range last season.

"The key is adding weight but also keeping Steinbach's quickness, which is the key to his success."

-Terry Pluto, Cleveland Plain Dealer

Beyond bulking up, Steinbach needs to remain healthy this year. He missed a few games last season to injury and was banged up even when he did play, hurting an already thin Browns line. Mangini might decide to rotate Steinbach in-and-out of the lineup this season for instances where he really wants to pound the ball, but in no logical scenario do I see him cutting Steinbach.

Job Security: A
Player Quality: A-
Final Roster Odds: 99%


3. ALEX MACK - STARTING CENTER

Images_mediumAlex Mack (#65)
Height:
6-4
Weight: 311
College: California
Experience: Rookie
Stats: Sex appeal

After a manageable 2007 season, center Hank Fraley just didn't quite cut it last season. Having two hungry, powerhouse defenses in our division, the Browns can't afford to be vulnerable straight up the middle. When Brady Quinn goes for a playaction pass, the ideal scenario would have the defender still at the line of scrimmage, not a foot away from him. Fraley's level of play degraded last season, and I could only imagine it getting worse this season.

Enter rookie Alex Mack out of California. We tried a center once in the first round (Jeff Faine) an had decent results. With Mack, we don't need him to be a Pro Bowler -- just the stable presence that Fraley was starting to lack. In fairness to Fraley, Mangini is not going to award Mack the starting job right away. And, with all rookies, the possibility always exists that it takes a longer time to adjust to the NFL; not everyone can do it as well as Thomas did. In other words, Mack isn't a guarantee to start Week 1; but I believe he will.

If you missed them or would like to look back, here are two very good pieces we featured on Mack shortly after he was drafted back in April:

Highlights of C Alex Mack, No. 21 Overall Pick of the Cleveland Browns

Questions Answered About Alex Mack by California Golden Blogs

Job Security: B
Player Quality: TBD
Final Roster Odds: 100%


4. RYAN TUCKER - STARTING RIGHT TACKLE

4205_mediumRyan Tucker (#72)
Height:
6-6
Weight: 315
College: TCU
Experience: 13 years
Note: Injury issues of late

Do not take it literally that Ryan Tucker is listed below Mack. I did it that way to make more of a transition from the left side of the line to the right side of the line, which is where we now stand. In an overall ranking, a healthy Tucker would be No. 2 or No. 3 on my list.

With Shaffer anchoring the right tackle position the past two seasons, the position is now open for Tucker to take again. Although, technically, it's not like Tucker ever really lost that position. In 2007, he was suspended for the first four games of the season. When he returned, he was place at right guard. Last year, early indications in training camp were that Tucker would see some time at tackle over Shaffer. That changed due to another injury for Tucker; he only played in one game. That game was a memorable one against the New York Giants. That game itself explains the difference Tucker can have on our pass protection.

The almighty question for Tucker is can he do it for 16 games again? He's done it before, so it might just require a little bit of luck from the football gods. He's been in the league for 13 years, but I don't think that plays into the equation yet. He's still good enough to play at a high level.

One more note: it's shaping up to be Ryan Tucker vs. Floyd Womack vs. John St. Clair vs. Rex Hadnot for the two positions on the right side of the line. In reality though, only one position is "up for grabs". Tucker will start at either right guard or at right tackle -- that might depend on where Mangini feels one of the other three guys fits in best. At this time, I'm projecting Tucker at the right tackle though.

Job Security: B- for right tackle, A for starting somewhere
Player Quality: B+
Final Roster Odds: 99%


5. FLOYD "PORK CHOP" WOMACK - COMPETING FOR STARTING RIGHT GUARD

5576_mediumFloyd Womack (#77)
Height:
6-4
Weight: 328
College: Mississippi State
Experience: 9 years
Note: "Pork Chop"

Floyd Womack is my early favorite to be the Browns' right guard. While not a long-term solution, he has plenty of starting experience in the league and has played every position on the line except for center. While Womack is a candidate at right tackle too, right from the get go when he was signed in March, I made my prediction known:

"Although the signing of Womack so soon after the release of Kevin Shaffer might seem like a sign that he will be placed at right tackle, I wouldn't count on it. Womack, originally a fourth round pick in the 2001 draft, has only started in 47 of the 90 games he has played. Last season, Womack started 14 games -- 8 at right guard and 6 at left guard." (Link)

At 328 pounds, Womack would be about 50 pounds heavier than Steinbach was last year on the line. He has the bulk and the experience, but is he "good enough" to be a starter?

Job Security: B-
Player Quality: C+
Final Roster Odds: 98%


6. REX HADNOT - COMPETING FOR STARTING RIGHT GUARD

6933_mediumRex Hadnot (#70)
Height:
6-2
Weight: 320
College: Houston
Experience: 6 years
Note: Starting guard in '08

We can't count Rex Hadnot out of the picture just yet, considering he is the reigning starting right guard of the Browns. Prior to that, he had significant experience with the Miami Dolphins for several seasons.

You'll find that Hank Fraley is missing from today's piece (he'll be listed in Day 2). It looks like it could come down to a situation where we will keep one or the other -- Fraley or Hadnot. Fraley has more experience but appears to be on the downside of his career. Hadnot has experience at center and guard, and while he wasn't dominant last year, he wasn't manhandled the way Fraley was at times. This is a plus for Hadnot's roster chances, where youth would prevail over the aging veteran.

As far as actually winning the right guard position, we'll have to see. Hadnot seems to be at a disadvantage to start though since he lacks the experience at tackle. If Tucker is the guard, he's got no chance to start. If Tucker is the tackle, then he'll have to beat out a more established and versatile Womack.

Player Quality: C
Final Roster Odds: 75%


7. JOHN ST. CLAIR - COMPETING FOR STARTING RIGHT TACKLE

4205_mediumJohn St. Clair (#78)
Height:
6-5
Weight: 315
College: Virginia
Experience: 10 years
Note: Loved then forgotten

For the Chicago Bears last season, John St. Clair started all 16 games. Originally, the Bears made it known that it was a priority this offseason to bring him back...only to see him get signed by the Browns. This irritated many Bears fans at first over at Windy City Gridiron, our SB Nation affiliate:

Well, are you happy now? Most of you got your wish, St.Clair is gone. Now were a little closer to being seriously f**ked.

Not all the reactions were that drastic, mind you. The consensus seemed to be that St. Clair was mediocre, and fans thought he could be brought back for cheap. He ended up signing a 3-year, $9 million deal with the Browns. Several months later, Bears fans are now saying "John Who?" after the team signed Frank Omiyale, Orlando Pace, and former Brown Kevin Shaffer. The Bears upgraded at the position, but, similar to Womack at guard, St. Clair can fill at one-year void as a starter if necessary. If not, then he would be our best backup tackle.

Player Quality: C
Final Roster Odds: 95%


OL Position Quality: B+ (Starters/Contenders Only)


NOTE: Tomorrow I will have Part 2 of the offensive line preview, where depth players Marlon Davis, George Foster, Hank Fraley, Dustin Fry, Kurt Quarterman, and Isaac Sowells will be looked at.

Be sure to vote in the poll below, just like all of you have been doing with the other position previews. It'll be interesting to see which combination draws the highest approval rating at right tackle.

Poll
Which RG and RT combination do you expect to see starting in Week 1?
Tucker at RG, St. Clair at RT
118 votes
Tucker at RG, Womack at RT
82 votes
Womack at RG, Tucker at RT
224 votes
Hadnot at RG, Tucker at RT
44 votes
Fraley at RG, Tucker at RT
23 votes
Tucker Won't Start (Other)
20 votes

511 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 40 comments |

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BTW, thanks to BradyQuinnisBeast for the suggestion of the poll to go with this piece. Remember guys, if you have any more training camp preview suggestions or want to contribute your own pieces, shoot me an email (see the email icon at the very bottom of the page).

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Jul 1, 2009 1:43 AM EDT reply actions  

I would really like to work out the guards seperately.
A guard is a special animal.
Versatility is absolutely not required. Considering this is the USA, cradle of American football, I would very much like born and bred guards. I mean with all the football teams in this country, the offensive linemen represent a pretty large demographic. I think I have the right to expect two prototype offensive guards for my established professional NFL franchise. I think we all know what a prototypical guard looks like, if you have two big guys, it´s the squat round looking one.
But like I said, until we get there, I would very much like to run the candidates for guard seperately.
I imagine, running them pretty hard, exert them to see who is really the fastest and strongest outside the weightroom. I would have them do pulling guard plays for a whole practice session, it should become readily apparent who is a guard type and who isn´t.
From your article, I think Thomas left tackle and Tucker right tackle is fantastic. Steinbach is a backup tackle considering the quality of Thomas and Tucker (and Foster, needs to be proven). Womack is also a tackle, albeit untypical due to his proportions (so not likely at all). Hadnot is kind of a mirage, he´s been around long enough to distinguish himself, and I think no one knows what he´s got. I can´t say emphatically enough, that I would like to know how Fraley´s qualities can be in doubt, considering he started at center for perennial NFC championship contenders Philadelphia Eagles for five years straight. If there is something wrong with that comparison (five years starting center on a contender), I would also like to see that illustrated. Alex Mack is a guard, and like I said I like prototypical, I don´t know if he can get his behind moving enough every darn play to be a scary runblocker upfield and pulling, he´s the last of the roadblocks. He´s not my type of player at all, not to the extent that I would keep him out of the line-up, but just not my cup of tea. If he turns out great, I stand corrected. You´ll be given opportunities to succeed, but at this level getting the chance to fail is ridiculous.

by mooncamping on Jul 1, 2009 5:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

judging fraley’s quality on what he did with the eagles makes no sense, becasue it was years ago. by your rational, we should sign joe montana to play quarterback because he led SF to several super bowl wins. we could also use chuck bednarik on defense…

by Dawg Nuts on Jul 1, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t try to grasp his rational because he has none. It works better to just laugh and move on.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 1, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought a prototypical guard would be a fullback

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jul 1, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Different guards fit different systems. And tackles can play guard, but guards cannot always play tackle. It is better to stockpile tackles than it is to reach on a guard.

by gahnki on Jul 2, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure I believe Womack is more ‘versatile’ than Hadnot, being able to play both guard positions. I might be mistaken, but wasnt Hadnot a center and guard for the Dolphins? That to me would indicate that Hadnot is more versatile, and just as likely to keep a roster spot. Being able to play center behind Mack might help him out quite a bit.

by Lisol on Jul 1, 2009 4:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Duh you said he plays center in the article. Reading comperehension > Me.

by Lisol on Jul 1, 2009 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s borderline I suppose. Womack has played both tackle positions and both guard positions. Hadnot’s experience at center though is more of a bonus attraction since that is exactly what Womack hasn’t done.

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Jul 1, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I should probably refrain from posting at 4am, as I somehow managed to totally skip over the fact that Womack can play tackle too. I more or less took issue with the fact that Hadnot only had been given a 75% final roster odds, when I believe that he is a lock to make the final roster and Fraley, not so much.

by Lisol on Jul 1, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am inclined to agree, but Fraley will probably be given lower odds than Hadnot received. 75% is pretty good for someone fighting for a starting position

by Roger Dorn on Jul 1, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe that playing an above average line position is as much about desire as size.
I’ve seen behemoths who can fly perform poorly. I’ve seen guys who looked overmatched in terms of size, play above average.
Vince Lombardi motivated his players through fear. There are many ways to motivate and different approaches work for different people. I wonder how well Mangini will motivate our lines?

by elsandito on Jul 1, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions  

In the end it all comes down to talent. You can talk all you want about intangibles, I just don’t know what that means. Talent makes winners, not intangibles. Can nice guys win? Sure, nice guys can win – if they’re nice guys with a lot of talent. Nice guys with a little talent finish fourth and nice guys with no talent finish last.

Sandy Koufax

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jul 1, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

This, a million times this.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 1, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the line, I’ll take a marginal guy who wants it every time over a talented guy who doesn’t give solid effort. You must give great effort on the line on every play, because the difference between a loss and a gain is so infinitesimal that effort is often the deciding factor.

by gahnki on Jul 2, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the difference is so small, how do you know that talent isn’t the deciding factor? Wouldn’t you want the guy who is a half-second quicker to the block?

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 2, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the line, I’ll take a marginal guy who wants it every time over a talented guy who doesn’t give solid effort.

If these are your only two options, it doesn’t matter which you choose because you’re going to inevitably lose either way. A line of Hank Fraley’s will get destroyed by the Steelers every time, as the difference between a loss and a gain is not infinitesimal there at all.

There are 32 teams in the NFL. I think we can find 6 or 7 of 160 most talented (sigh, and driven) guys in the world to play on our line without giving extra credit for the imagined metal lunch pail that sits on the passenger seat of his 2010 Mercedes.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jul 2, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please, this is the NFL where everyone has some degree of talent. No one is disputing this. But to deny that desire to succeed isn’t a very large part of being an offensive linemen is the pinnacle of football ignorance. Offensive linemen get their asses kicked on every play. Desire and toughness are very real qualities that very successful offensive line coaches specifically look for when evaluating linemen.

This isn’t the often humorous “grit” that is attributed to Casey Blake by announcers. This is a tangible attribute that is paramount to success as a lineman.

Read this story for a look at an average game for a linemen. It is quite illuminating.

You and Brad are both very smart guys. But you are both wrong in this instance.

by gahnki on Jul 2, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would also argue that everyone in the NFL has some degree of desire or they wouldn’t have made it to the league. There are plenty of immensely talented players who didn’t make it out of high school or college because they didn’t have the desire or work ethic.

Also, do you really think desire and toughness is more paramount in offensive lineman than other positions in football? I think it’s important for every player no matter where they play.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 2, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

This isn’t about being born with the talent to hit major league pitching. This is about shoving a man out of your way. Blocking is about the desire to make another man do that which he refuses to do. You do have to have some size, but most of it is your will against his.

by elsandito on Jul 2, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still don’t think there is a “most of it is X” in this discussion.

You have to have both, period.

Without desire, talent is worthless. Without talent, desire is worthless.

If you have a guy with all-pro talent that gives moderate effort, that’s an OK player. If you have a guy with all-pro heart that has moderate talent, that’s an OK player too.

As far as choosing between those guys, give me the talented guy who hasn’t played hard to this point if I am drafting outside the 2nd round or signing a guy younger than 25. Maybe my coach can get him to use that talent or maybe the fresh start will do him some good. Give me the effort player if it’s an older free agent.

My 1st and 2nd round picks have to have both talent and desire (Alex Mack).

by rufio on Jul 2, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would also argue that everyone in the NFL has some degree of desire or they wouldn’t have made it to the league.

I would not disagree with this at all. But past desire to get to the league and collect a check may not always translate to current desire.

Also, do you really think desire and toughness is more paramount in offensive lineman than other positions in football? I think it’s important for every player no matter where they play.

I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with this either, but I think the very nature of the game for linemen (offensive and defensive) relies heavily on desire and toughness. Braylon Edwards can loaf on a few routes, but make a spectacular touchdown catch and everyone feels good about his level of play.

But if a linemen is loafing on a few plays, and the ball does not advance in the running game or the quarterback is sacked then everyone wants the guys head. Remember Kevin Schaeffer against Dwight Freeney? And how he was just absolutely bull-rushed backwards? Now, Freeney is very talented, but he also held a 50-70 pound weight disadvantage which should prevent him from pushing Schaeffer onto the ground. That seems like the perfect example of someone who really wanted it going against someone who played on a team whose season was clearly over.

by gahnki on Jul 3, 2009 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Freeney also probably had the talent/quickness to get leverage on Shaffer. I’ll admit that lineplay necessitates more “will” than other positions, or at least will more consistently. My original problem was with the first comment, “playing an above average line position is as much about desire as size.” I don’t think they’re equal (substituting “talent” for “size”, of course).

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jul 3, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was actually Robert Mathis who embarassed Shaffer. That play was the one where DA got hurt. Mathis also scored the defensive TD in that game, but it was Freeney who sacked DA on the TD play.

I re-watched that game the other day.

The announcer doing the game was joking about Mathis being listed at 235 and said he looked 10 lbs smaller than that. So that’s probably at least an 80lb advantage for Schaffer. On the TD play (Freeney’s sack), Thomas probably outweighs Freeney by 40 or so pounds and Freeney was able to pressure DA because Thomas got lazy and was playing high.

Which players were better than the others is up for debate (i.e. speed vs. strength) but once Thomas and Shaffer got their hands on Freeney and Mathis, they should have been able to control them.

by rufio on Jul 4, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

tell that to david when he beat goliath

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jul 5, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Apocrypha aside, in the real world Goliaths usually win.

www.lowbrowsophisticate.com

by kwoog on Jul 6, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right. David beating Goliath is a nice story but it rarely happens in the real world.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

So are we all over Ryan Tucker’s steriod use? Just wondering because I don’t really remember how it played out a few years ago just that it was made a big deal by the media.

by SpecialBrownie on Jul 1, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions  

I think he has served his time, and it sounded like something that was related to his mental disorder (although it appeared he tried not to say much about it and took the punishment “like a man”).

I think I am over it.

by rufio on Jul 1, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

For some reason, I care about steroids in football much less than baseball. I think it’s because baseball is so numbers based, roids just made a mockery of all that came before it. With the NFL the game has changed so much it would be crazy to compare Red Grange’s numbers to Adrian Peterson.

Hell the Steelers team doctor was caught with a TON of HGH and it was a story for a week. If the Yankees team doctor was caught with that much HGH Bob Costa’s head would explode. And for Costas that’s saying something…

by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 1, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I personally don’t care about steroids in any sport. Science is so far ahead of testing that I assume everyone is using something.

by gahnki on Jul 2, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for using that pole Chris.

I think the key to our right side is Tucker ( Which position did he play last year when he did good?). If Tucker is a tackle, Womack will start. If tucker is a guard, St. Clair will start.
If Womack or St. Clair prove to be much better than the other, it might help determine where Tuck plays.

Hadnot will make the roster, Hank shouldnt.

I would give the O-line an A

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jul 1, 2009 9:54 PM EDT reply actions  

I believe he has most recently played at RG. In 2007, he managed to make Shaffer look quite good at RT, IMO.

by rufio on Jul 2, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pulling guards for a whole practice session, with all the coaches watching with an open mind, and we have one less predicament. You´ll see the difference between a typical natural born guard and a well fed behemoth. Too bad there´s no one on ones to involve the linemen, that would show you that just plain size does not a football player make.

by mooncamping on Jul 2, 2009 6:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Stats: Sex appeal

Just saw that. $.

by rufio on Jul 2, 2009 4:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Not being impatient, but isnt the other half of the preview supposed to be today?

by BradyQuinnisBeast on Jul 2, 2009 4:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes, that was the original intention. Since Bernie19Kosar wrote a very nice piece about our defense though, I didn’t want to shove his post further down the front page. Also, since we had two spare days to talk about the offensive line (Friday and Saturday), it’ll fit in nicely :)

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Jul 2, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

meant to say…

“…I didn’t want to shove his post further down the front page so soon.”

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Jul 2, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just read where Terry Pluto said that

In the past, the Browns used more zone, finesse blocking schemes.

 Is it just my memory, or has that NOT been a part of the Browns’ blocking schemes? To my untrained eye it seemed that our line just seemed to try and put a block on the nearest guy. Can someone educate me as to what the finesse part of the Browns O-line has been?

by JustBob on Jul 6, 2009 9:50 PM EDT reply actions  

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