Just like this guy.

Rothlisberger is definetly not better than Drew Brees, Payton Manning, or Tom Brady. It’s not even close. However, if you were to ask me who I thought the top 10 QB’s in the league are then I’d probably buy Ben is definetly on that list.

I don’t neccesarily agree with the notion that Rothlisberger is a game manager. Game managers, carry the team less then Ben has. GM’s also don’t turn the ball over as often, and are usually not trusted to try throwing 25 times or more.

The line is, Ben can make plays. The stats don’t show it, but the guy commands a huddle, has proven his toughness (despite always being knocked to the ground), and has made some plays that have gotten me to curse and yell at my tv. While he definetly wouldn’t be my first pick for my starting QB, I don’t have a problem putting him at the helm.

You forgot a few stats most importantly Win percentage. I know, I forgot, most Browns fans don’t know what that is but lets be real here. I will concede that fact that Ben is a drama queen and master of making up injuires. However most astute football fans will concede that there is more to quarterbacking than Attempts, Completions, Touchdowns, Ints and Rating.

Coming into the 2008 football season Ben was 5th in NFL History in career qb rating(min 1500 attempts). He had an off year on TDs which affected his rating and he still managed to win a superbowl with a line that would have left Manning crying.

He is the winningest QB in history second to Brady

Youngest to win a Superbowl

14-0 in his first 14 NFL starts

He is on pace to destroy not beat, destroy Elways comebacks record

These are just a few. Maybe when you ask the question “Best QB in the Game” you should ignore stats and ask yourself if I am down 4 and have 1:45 to go in the game and 80 yards of field. Who’s hands do i want the ball in? Fantasy Stars or Winners??

I dont know. Hes the perfectest Quarterback ever

but comparing him to Orton is kind of a joke.

Why?

This gets into the opportunity vs. talent level discussion, but I would love to see what Brees could do in the Steeler’s offense. I think the passing efficiency of the team would go up tremendously.

This is what I really wanted to get across. If you traded Ben Roethlisberger with Player X, would the Steelers still be a Super Bowl winning team? You cannot convince me that Brees on the Steelers last year would not have won the Super Bowl.

He is an analyst the blows John Maddens mind.

everyone makes the cameras move when they throw

has anybody in the history of football compared a player to a construction crane before this? what does that even mean?

The significance is no one takes you seriously around here, you’re a joke to us.

Ben Roethlisberger is the opposite, he stands there like a construction crane

great point…except for the inconvenient reality that one of ben’s greatest strengths is actually his mobility, and his capacity for keeping a broken play alive.

how does Brees not have a presence? You play the Saint, you spend a lot of time talking and preparing for Brees.

if Ben is such a weak QB, how he has beaten the browns like 9 or 10 times in a row?

First of all, I was unaware that Ben won these games all by himself. Football has always been a team game.

Second of all, where did I ever mention that the Browns are better than the Steelers? I didn’t. The Browns still have a lot of work to do to get better.

Please allow me to correct you and remind you of this key fact: the Pittsburgh Steelers are still World Champions.

2005 Superbowl: 9/21 123 Yards 2 INT’s. Like I said, team game.

The whole point is that he hasn’t beaten the Browns 9 times in a row, the Steelers have. There is no arguing that the Steelers have been a better team than the Browns over the last 3-4 seasons. The discussion here is if Big Ben is an elite QB. Elite QBs are NOT necessary for an elite team. Just ask Baltimore fans, Tampa Bay fans, Giant fans, etc.

The Browns and Bengals have really sucked lately, but that doesn’t prove anything one way or the other about Big Ben.

The Browns and the Bengals have—based on their records minus 1-2 seasons for each team—sucked over the last decade.

We are more talented now than we’ve been since we’ve been back. Hopefully we can make the rivalry interesting again by winning a few soon.

I agree that this post was probably fueled by hate, but we are supposed to hate the black and gold, and Bernie made a logical, statistically-based point that Ben hasn’t singlehandedly beaten us, and really hasn’t taken the steelers on his back as often as ESPN would like you to believe.

You’ll find a lot of Browns fans here. And there is no possible way we could be fairweather fans.

if Ben is such a weak QB, how he has beaten the browns like 9 or 10 times in a row? What does that say about your team?

That we suck? I don’t think that will come as a surprise to any of us. Our 4-12 record may have given us just a vague inkling as well.

Yes, you beat us. So did most teams. No, Ben is not that great of a QB.

It doesn’t help when Willie Parker runs all over us. We couldn’t stop the run at all the past years. Not so bad last year.

All of those W-L stats suffer from the same bad logic as your post above: Ben doesn’t win or lose games by himself. I think you’d be able to point to his gaudy stats if the team did just put everything on his shoulders and pass to win the game.

YPA, on the other hand, is a good stat. I tried to make something like that point above, where I talked about him not throwing a lot because he doesn’t have to.

Ben is good, he just is nowhere close to Drew Brees’ level right now.

Dude, you cannot use TEAM stats to evaluate PLAYERS. Ben does not win any games by himself; he’s a good quarterback who is surrounded by great players. Yeah, he has two Super Bowl rings — does that mean he’s better than Dan Marino? Hines Ward also has two Super Bowl rings — is he better than Randy Moss? Of course not! TEAMS win games, not players, so you can’t evaluate players by their team’s wins or losses. That’s simply ridiculous.

You are correct that YPA is a good stat.

Here is another stat for ya

2004: 13-0
2005: 10-0
2006: 3-0
2007: 6-1
2008: 5-1

Career: 37-2

Career record of games started in which Ben Roethlisberger threw the ball 25 or more times. 37-2. 22-18 when he throws more than 25.

Can you honestly say that Ben throwing is a good idea?

fine, stats don’t matter. therefore, we can all agree the steelers aren’t the greatest team in NFL history just because they have 6 SB wins. 6 is just a statistic.

Well said Steel Driver. I like to hear a counterpoint that doesn’t include the “you guys suck the most” view. You make a good point that Ben brings something to your team that has helped them win. Stats can go either way, depending on how you use them.

Ben didn’t win games by himself, he is a part of a team that has won.

Still love to hate the steelers though. :-)

Then how in the hell are you still under the impression that Ben Roethlisberger is one of the top 3 QBs in the league? He’s playing with the best defense in the league right now. Drew Brees? Uh not so much.

Let’s put it this way: If you put Brees in Ben’s position on the Steelers, you’d see not only him, but the team improve, and easily become the Superbowl favorite for multiple years. Now to the contrary, with Ben in Brees’ spot on the Saint’s you’d see the opposite. Both Ben and the team would decline, get worse.
And any Pittsburgh fan that claims the wouldn’t want to trade Brees for Ben is either an idiot or in denial.

Clearly, many Steelers fans are seriously delusional. Blinded by their own victories, they automatically assume they are simply the best at every position. When in reality, their AMAZING linebacking core is taking the team places, the best free safety in the game is a nice touch too. (The offense is sufficient, just about good enough, nothing much more.)

Just for future reference; it ruins the point when you tell us who A, B, and C are right away. See, the idea is that you make some statement about the players and then shock us all when you make the big revelation. Here you just created a bunch of extra typing for yourself.

Otto’s offense also only had three pass plays, so I’m not sure how much can be gathered from that data.

The last sentence is pretty funny. You gave me a good laugh

I don’t trust any analysis which includes this awful paragraph about Drew Brees:

Brees has proven he’s an elite passer. Now he must prove he’s an elite quarterback. You do that in the NFL by winning and then by winning playoff games. Brees is 1-2 in the postseason in his seven years as a starter with San Diego and New Orleans.

Are you kidding me? They’re judging Brees on his team’s lack of playoff success? And this was right after they talked about how crappy the Saints defense was last year and the team would have probably won the divison with even just an average defense. How is it Drew Brees’ fault that his team couldn’t win games because of their awful defense? That’s not right.

I know the QB is the most critical part of a football team’s success, but you cannot give ONE PLAYER credit for TEAM success. Just because the Dolphins never won a Super Bowl doesn’t change the fact that Dan Marino was one of the greatest quarerbacks of all time. Teams win championships, not players. Yes, Ben is a very good QB and has played well in the playoffs (most of the time — he was terrible in their first Super Bowl). But don’t tell me he’s better than Manning or Brees or Brady.

You call us rude? How ignorant can you be?

Thanks for missing the point of the article. That’s what happens when people have a pre-determined (and therefore meaningless) opinion I guess.

Its funny how he says we are rude

Yeah, well, I had sex with your wife! (George Costanza voice)

Thanks for insulting me after I stuck up for your boy, even though a part of me died while I did it.

Comparing Rothlisberger to Orton is a joke. Just as comparing Brees to Rothlisberger is a joke.

We didn’t put Ben with Kyle Orton, his own numbers did. And yes, we know that our team sucks.

And yes, I think Hines Ward is better than Randy Moss.

Not that anything else in that incoherent mess gave you credibility, but this takes the cake. Your logic is purely based on wins and losses, neglecting the team concept and defensive aspect of football. The Steelers have a fantastic defense which has allowed them to win lots of football games. This does not mean every player on their offense by virtue of winning more, is better than other players at their respective positions.

Robert Horry has a lot of rings. Patrick Ewiing, Charles Barkley, and Karl Malone are all much better individual players.

Its pretty impossible to say the steelers aren’t good at winning as an organization. It is pretty easy to say that they win more when Ben throws less.

TEAMS win games, not players. Ben has never, ever won a football game all by himself. Analyzing players by their team success is incredibly stupid and ignores the contribution of other members of the team.

And if you think Hines Ward is a better football player than Randy Moss then you don’t know anything about the game of football, simply put. I don’t care how many games you’ve been to; you are completely clueless when it comes to analyzing the game. Or you’re just biased and think all Steelers players are better than everyone else.

We are talking about ranking QBs, not the damn teams!!! Brett Favre is one of the greatest QBs of all time, and how many SB’s wins does he have? Silently anwser the question, and get the hell outta Cleveland.

Eh. Wouldn’t have mattered if it wasn’t for Harrison. Just saying.

i’d like to congratulate you. you’ve managed to display more Steeler fan qualities in one series of comments than maybe anyone we’ve ever seen. You’ve covered obnoxiousness, a poor grasp of the english language, name calling, a juvenile mindset, gloating, and overall buffonishness in a mere 4 or 5 comments.

well played sir, well played.

Probably Thigpen.

That looks like the kind of guy I would like to talk football with

Recently (ie, as of Friday) unemployed and loving it. I’m also on Chicago time.

And I start my sophomore year of college at 7 A.M. [sigh]

To update, fwembt, kwoog, Bernie19Kosar, rufio, simmsins, and myself have all made appearances after 1:30 Eastern time. This is pretty remarkable to me for some reason.

Obviously the discussion boils down to how much BR is responsible for the victories and we are not going to make any headway on that discussion. I feel strongly that he is very much resposible.

I’m done BTW peace folks.

Thanks for the logical view.

We obviously disagree but I admit that you have some valid points. I still can’t wrap my mind around how anyone can think that Ben is the third best QB in the NFL.

Now that’s reasonable.

I don’t know if I agree that Ben is the 3rd best 4th quarter comeback guy, but he certainly isn’t bad at putting together that one drive at the end of a game—and he’s done it several times over the course of his career.

You are completely ruining the stereotype that your comrades were trying so hard to establish.

Well done, you’re the first Steelers fan who hasn’t give the all original “Scoreboard” response.

I couldn’t agree with Johnny more.

As a Steeler fan since I was 4 (36+ years now), I’ve lived through the Steelers days of Franco & Bleir pounding for 1,000 yards each. Loved it. Only later did Bradshaw ever have to carry the team at all.

Essentially, though, what we do is set up the pas with the run. Yes, the majority of teams do that, but Pittsburgh REALLY accomplish this better than most. The difference is, with Roethlisberger, we can actually hit the WR’s now. There were days this wasn’t always the case. (Brister, O’Donnell, Stewart, et. al.)

We love our smash mouth football, our tough butt-kickin’ defense and blue collar ethic of running a franchise.

The only thing I would add to Johnny’s response would be that not only did Ben have a bunch of 4th Qtr comebacks last year, he stepped up and delivered on the absolute biggest stage, with most of the field in front of him, time running out. Delivered.

no running game? ha

Wish I hadn’t just spend time reading this.

why does it feel like we’re back in second grade again? comments should at least make an effort at being readable.

Maybe use the reply button? Who are you talking to?

Objection: Relevance?

Well, then you have very little clue as to what constitutes a good running game. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.

Thank you for the fresh perspective on why rings matter when evaluating a QB.

This is now the most moronic comment in this thread. Keep it rolling guys.

Thank you for the fresh perspective on why playoff wins matter when evaluating a QB.

Bubby Brister has a Super Bowl ring.

Thigpen has nowhere near what Ben has.

You might want to rethink that last question though.

We would not say Polamalu is overrated because he is not. Ben Roethlisberger is.

Still waiting for one Steelers fan to answer the question if Ben had played for the Lions last year, what would their record have been? Does that stop making him a “winner?”

Also, I nominate this a top 5 worst post to ever grace this site.

This is ban-worthy. What an idiot.

Wow, this high level of discourse and intellectual persuasion certainly changed my mind about things. Why use useless tools like statistics, analysis, and logic when shouting and especially CAPITALIZATION carry such weight?

I guess it just proves that there are morons in the fanbase everywhere. Your post does a disservice to the player whose name you use as a signature.

If you continue to post comment which contain foul language and serve only to bash Cleveland and its fans then you will be banned. We want intelligent discourse on this blog, not idiotic rants.

you are the dumbest person ever to have posted on SB Nation.

Actually you all lead the series 59-55. That isnt a ton.

Sorry but I had to rec this because it is the funniest post ever.

wow. way to take the high road.

D*mmit, meant as a reply.

However, statistics can only do a half-assed job at best when trying to describe reality.

This is certainly accurate: statistics are, in fact, a model of reality (whatever that is). As such, they can’t possibly capture all aspects of the larger situation. However, since they do model reality in some way, neither can you simply discard statistics, in effect saying “if the stats don’t agree with my perception, they’re intrinsically worthless.” The individual’s view of reality is no more an accurate reflection of reality than are various statistical measures. After all, the stats were invented to allow comparison of various aspects of performance. The statistical metrics might well be incomplete, or flawed, and that has to be factored into the discussion. However, the same thing applies when using personal experience as a metric for analysis. In fact, I don’t think most people are arguing that Ben’s success is due to his surrounding cast, but rather that some portion of his success can be attributed to his teammates, particularly the defense. We can argue what exactly that portion is, and that’s what makes this the thread that wouldn’t die. So, while I would agree that stats are imperfect, neither is entirely disregarding them a safe haven.

On the whole, though, thanks for your reasonable and intelligently stated discussion. If I rooted for a team with the Steeler’s success, I’m sure I would also be enthusiastic about the QB. I actually think Ben is good – sometimes better than merely good. I don’t, though, think he ranks in the top tier of QBs based on individual performance.

Yeah, just hit me up with your email and I’ll send the turtle wax.

to finish the thought … instead, we get all this hue and cry about how ben IS, in fact, awesome, and the only stat that counts is rings, which makes him THE BEST!!!!!

The other thing to consider is what happens if they don’t march down the field at the end of the game. It was an excellent drive by both Ben and Holmes, I have to grant them that. But what if Arizona pulls out that game on the back of that Fitzgerald TD? Both of Ben’s SB performances would have been considered underwhelming and this “winner” talk would be stupid.