Browns Dominate Lions 20-0 in First Quarter, Go on to Win 27-10
| DETROIT LIONS (1-1) | GAME #2 | CLEVELAND BROWNS (1-1) | |||
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VS. | ||||
| 10 | 27 |
For once, I felt bad for the opposition. They don't know who their quarterback will be, they are turning the ball over, they can't stop the run very well, and they really don't have a great running back. They are last year's 0-16 Detroit Lions.
What I saw from the first overall pick in the draft, Matthew Stafford, was a complete mess. He was confused by our coverages numerous times, making it easy to bait him into dangerous throws. When our defense did leave a few players wide open, Stafford horribly overthrew them. You expect a rookie to take some time to adjust to the league, but no where near as bad as Stafford was.
That was good news for the Browns' defense though, because it gave our players the opportunity to build some confidence and quickly get the ball back into the hands of our offense. In the end, the result was almost a complete 180 from last week's debacle against the Green Bay Packers.
PRESEASON GAME 2 - LIONS VS. BROWNS (GENERAL THOUGHTS)
- Preseason Game Ball - It's Time to Pay Up: Besides making progress as a wide receiver, Joshua Cribbs is just too good in the return game. If Eric Mangini wanted Cribbs to prove to him that he was worthy of a raise, then Cribbs is doing a heck of a job showing off his abilities. On the first play of the game, Cribbs returned the kickoff for a touchdown, disproving my theory that returners would have a tougher time this season without a wedge.
The play was brought back due to a phantom holding call on Abram Elam, but I'll live with that in the preseason since it gave our offense an early look on the field. In his next opportunity, coming on a punt return, Cribbs shifted through the defense and was off for an 84-yard touchdown. - The Truth on Derek Anderson: Did we learn anything new on Derek Anderson? Not really. He definitely played better than he did the previous week, and part of that had to do with making quicker decisions. Anderson was assisted by the playcalling of offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, who tailored the playbook to Anderson's strengths. This was Anderson, for the most part, at his best -- but we already knew he could make these plays.
- The Struggles of Derek Anderson: If you're a new reader, don't get me wrong -- I like Anderson and wouldn't be ticked off if he was the opening day starter. But you can't call his performance perfect when he missed a wide open Braylon Edwards down the sideline. A better throw would've resulted in a long touchdown, and would've prevented the need for a long third down play (which Anderson did convert on).
Then during the two-minute drill, Anderson could only find RB James Davis on some dumpoffs. His lack of touch on short throws proved to be a weakness when his extra-high pass to Davis was tipped and intercepted by the Lions, allowing them to kick a field goal just before half-time. Anderson also had a play earlier in which he had no touch, firing a quick slant to Edwards either into the ground, or low and behind him for an incompletion. - Quinn - Fine From What We Saw: At least Brady Quinn didn't tank during his limited action at quarterback. I did not agree with Quinn being inserted on a 3rd-and-1 play to start the second quarter. Anderson started that drive, and at the very least, Anderson should have stayed in until the chains were moved. He started with a nice 24-yard completion to Brian Robiskie, but then the play-calling became much more conservative with an emphasis on the run and throwing short passes on third down.
John St. Clair didn't help Quinn's cause with a few penalties to set the drive back. Quinn was OK, but in no way can you look at this game and saw that Quinn lost his shot at the starting role. At best, you can say that Anderson did enough not to have Quinn be named the starter immediately following the game. - Lewis on the Ground: Looking at the stat sheet, Jamal Lewis had another low-carry average, having 3.3 yards per carry on seven attempts. I don't see this as him struggling though; that is Jamal Lewis. Remember that throughout his career, minus the times he just obliterated the Browns as a member of the Ravens, he made his mark by pounding away and staying strong during the second half of the game.
- Davis' Stock Back Up: It's been about two weeks now since the James Davis show has had some highlights, but his 81-yard touchdown run changed that. It was a simple give-up call on 3rd-and-12 just before the end of the fourth-quarter -- a quick pump fake by Brett Ratliff, followed by the delayed draw handoff to Davis.
Davis shot through the line and the safeties overcommitted to the inside, allowing Davis to make a nice juke move to the outside where he then had the help of blocking from two Browns receivers. Davis then kicked it into another gear, outracing everyone to the end zone. Davis claims that it was the longest run he's had in his football career. - Taking Advantage: DB Eric Wright took advantage of Stafford's inexperience and of the Lions' lack of healthy receivers when he intercepted the Lions' first pass of the game. His return went for about 5 yards on the stat sheet, but ended up taking him a whole football field to get that. I hate the pesky celebration penalty after the fact, but I guess a rule is a rule.
- Ivy, Poteat, Francies: It was a great day to be a Browns cornerback, that's for sure. Between the three players listed in the subtitle, Corey Ivy had the most notable plays. He lit up one of the Lions' receivers on a third-and-short pass, and was also in on the tackle that caused a fumble at the start of the third quarter (Mike Adams had the recovery).
Hank Poteat had several nice plays, notably an interception near the sideline that didn't count after his hip fell just a bit out of bounds. Coye Francies, the rookie, had some tight coverage again. He left for a play or two with a hip injury, and returned on a play where he wasn't in press coverage and gave up a first down. - Quiet Night for Tight Ends: I'm not going to complain here, because I'd rather see our backs and receivers in the preseason over our tight ends. It was nice to see Steve Heiden back for his first game, catching a 20-yard pass from Derek Anderson. To see him in on a double tight end set with the first-string unit provides hope that he won't be a roster casualty.
- Vickers With the Assist: I saw more of our fullbacks tonight, particularly Lawrence Vickers early on. He hit several of his blocks very well, paving some lanes open for Lewis, including on his touchdown run in the first quarter. We haven't heard much about Vickers this camp, but I believe he's still an intregal part of our running attack.
- Backup QB's: I'm still not very impressed with Brett Ratliff, although our second-string offensive line is not very good in protection. Richard Bartel had his opportunity, but blew his chance when he just barely overthrew an open Lance Leggett deep down the field. I didn't get to see enough of Bartel this camp to have an opinion of him, but he'll probably be cut after the third preseason game when rosters are trimmed to 75.
- Furrey & Edwards: You can just tell that our third-down offense is going to be built around Mike Furrey after these first two preseason games. Even when we're in third-and-long situations, we're throwing the ball to him on short routes to see if he can break them open. he's not that type of player, but I'd imagine that for the preseason, those are really practice situations to focus on getting him the ball on "3rd-and-7", even if it's really a "3rd-and-15". Braylon Edwards had a catch -- nothing special, but at least the talk of the drop from Green Bay can die down for another week.
- Ticket Sales? The Browns are doing their 4 hot dogs, 4 drinks, 4 tickets for $99 deal again for this weekend's game against the Titans. I bet the Browns sell a few more of those packages than they did for the Lions game. A good outing at home can do that.
- Bernie Ripping on Brown: Announcer Bernie Kosar really ripped on Lions sixth-round RB Aaron Brown. Once a year, there is always a player on the opposing team in the preseason that gets on Kosar's nerves. I look forward to who that player is, and boy did Kosar rip into Brown. It started after Brown took a handoff on 3rd-and-6 out of bounds for a gain of four, rather than staying in bounds to fight for the extra yardage.
A few plays later on a pass play, Brown scurried out of bounds to avoid contact. (roughly transcribed) "This Brown just doesn't appear to like contact. That is not going to show up well for him in the film room or for when any teams in the league are looking for a free agent running back." Then on the Browns' series, Kosar notes that veteran Ryan Tucker is still in the game. "13 years Ryan has been in this league, and he's one of the toughest guys I know...definitely Aaron Brown on the other side of the spectrum from TCU...he's not even close to that type of toughness the way he runs out of bounds." I might be snoozing in the second half of preseason games if it weren't for Bernie. - Special Teams & Kaluka Maiava: I'll give him this own category this week because I'm running out of fresh sub-titles. Maiava had two early special teams tackles and made some positive plays defensively. Also having a good play on special teams was veteran LB Blake Costanzo. I know Gerard Lawson is backing up Cribbs as a returner, but I can't see him making the team again.
- This Week's Marcus Benard: ...is DB Bret Lockett. Lockett saw some action with the first-string defense and made several individual one-on-one tackles. That ability intrigues me, even to the point where I now might change my mind and want to keep him over backup S Nick Sorensen (who did have a nice block on Cribbs' punt return TD). I had no idea where LB Marcus Benard was this week, as I didn't hear his name mentioned once. I have to imagine he didn't even play.
- Down on Foster: I'm not at all impressed by the play of George Foster. He's even rivaling Isaac Sowells when it comes to down performances. Foster was responsible for Ratliff's fumble in the third quarter, a play that led to Lions QB Drew Stanton throwing a touchdown on his first play.
- Cleaning Up the Penalties: On special teams, the Browns had one too many penalties, negating a few nice punts by Dave Zastudil and Cribbs' first touchdown return. As good as the game was as a whole, we'll have a few players running laps for their mistakes.
- Brownies: LB Kamerion Wimbley played well early, as did MLB Eric Barton, who made a nice play on the ball dropping back into coverage and drilled Stafford on a free blitz...RB Chris Jennings came close to blocking a punt on two consecutive possessions.
- Final Word: Thanks for being a footnote, Shaun Smith.
QB Derek Anderson celebrates in belief that he has won the quarterback competition (in reality, this was him celebrating Davis' TD run)Eric Mangini has a decision to make. Starting quarterbacks are usually named by the third preseason game, but based on our first two games, you can't really say one player outplayed the other. It should really come down to how the quarterbacks have done overall in training camp, and most importantly, who Mangini has more faith in to lead the type of offense he wants the Browns to run. If he wants mistake-free football, Quinn should be the guy. If he wants the high risk/high reward route, maybe it's Anderson.
NOTE: To all fantasy football DBN players, remember that the draft is at 9 PM EST tonight!
Here is the roll call of who participated in the game thread, with rufio and myself having the most to say...
Roll Call: kjc, doggrad87, dergru, Roger Dorn, BradyQuinnisBeast, rufio, gahnki, skipkirk, rockybrown, ChrisPokorny, irish1083, nickjs21, woodsmeister, danzig, dohior, JustBob, aufrank, BrownDawg1409, Bernie19Kosar, Juannieboy
Total Users: 20
Total Posts: 294
Total Threads: 1
| Name | # of Posts |
|---|---|
| rufio | 59 |
| ChrisPokorny | 59 |
| Roger Dorn | 35 |
| JustBob | 23 |
| woodsmeister | 19 |
| gahnki | 17 |
| BradyQuinnisBeast | 17 |
| BrownDawg1409 | 13 |
| rockybrown | 10 |
| skipkirk | 10 |
| Juannieboy | 8 |
| irish1083 | 6 |
| aufrank | 5 |
| nickjs21 | 4 |
| dergru | 3 |
| kjc | 2 |
| doggrad87 | 1 |
| Bernie19Kosar | 1 |
| dohior | 1 |
| danzig | 1 |
0 recs |
89 comments
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Comments
So do you think Weary might make the roster over Foster
I didnt mean for that to rhyme
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Aug 23, 2009 7:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I saw a lot of praise for Anderson in the PD this morning, and he did look good out there most of the time, but he still had too many mistakes. More than a few people, including Pluto, said that his only mistake was the pick before halftime, but they’re ignoring his other two really bad throws in the first quarter. You mentioned his bad throw to Braylon on the sidelines, but he had another pass where he horribly underthrew someone (don’t remember who) over the middle who was also open. He did make some nice throws, as he always does, but he’s still too inconsistant for me.
I wish we could have seen more of Quinn; I was hoping that he’d play a series or two in the second half. I didn’t like putting him on third-and-one, and though he didn’t lead to any points he made some nice throws. As you mentioned, the two penalties on St. Clair hurt his chances to move the ball. I was hoping that Quinn would seperate himself after this game, so we’d have a clear starter going in to the third week, but I guess that’s not happening.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 23, 2009 7:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey I will say it, “Eric, this is Quinn’s team, name him starter and lets get on with it”
Here is to Quinn having a good week and game against the Titans.
Fuerry seems like the right player for this team, reminds me of Brian Brennen a bit.
Davis could turn out to be a hell of steal in the 6th round. Funny I wanted the Browns to draft McCoy and after a good first game for McCoy he really struggled in the second game. See how this pans out.
No Norwood, oh well.
Good win, Browns needed a good effort, even though it was preseason.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 23, 2009 8:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I watched the first half of the game this morning and although Anderson did a nice job of moving the ball for the most part, it is still painfully obvious that he cannot throw the short ones. On the short pas that he threw low and outside to Edwards his arm movement looked more like a powerful (really powerful) twitch rather than an intentional passing motion.
It’s as if he gets his arm pre-loaded for a long pass and doesn’t have a pressure relief valve when he needs to adjust to something shorter. On the plus side, I did not notice him staring down his receivers, something that I recall as at least an occasional problem last year.
Overall, as much as I like the way he can connect on the bombs, I would rather not see him get the starting job until he can get that spasm under control.
One other note. Last week Quinn started and got good protection, but as soon as Anderson came in the protection dissolved. This week Anderson started with good protection which dissolved as soon as Quinn got in the game. As far as I can tell there were no changes in the O-line personnel in either game when the relieving QB came in, so I’m not sure what’s going on there.
by JustBob on Aug 23, 2009 9:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can’t connect to the draft room. I hope it went well. For me.
by skipkirk on Aug 23, 2009 10:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ah, sorry that you couldn’t get in :-(
It wasn’t a complete mess for your team, but you did get very unfortunate with a few of the auto picks. Brandon Marshall (due to his suspension), Greg Olsen (taken too early), and Willis McGahee (again, a tad too early) were the bad ones that stood out.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Aug 23, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait- did Marshall actually get suspended? I thought I read he might play in the next preseason game?
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 23, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I was typing with my mind on the TV. I meant to say due to his holdout.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Aug 23, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Brandon Marshall experience will not end well in Denver. McDaniels has really made a mess of that situation. Don’t forget that he traded his first round pick next year. That will probably end up being a top 5 pick.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 23, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I"m a little more confident that it will work out. I just read something on the SBN’s Bronco site that basically took all the Marshall quotes out of a recent interview. The conclusion- he isn’t too happy with his contract, but he likes playing in Denver and likes McDaniels.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 24, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My notes from watching most of the first half and a little of the second:
- Hall and Wimbley look good on running plays- actually playing contain on the edges. I don’t remember our OLB’s doing that very well under Crennel.
- Eric Wright is a stud. He is one of our top 5 players, and probably #2 on defense behind Rogers. I hoping for a Pro Bowl caliber season.
- Josh Cribbs is a stud. He is one of our top 5 players, and perhaps even our #2 WR. I don’t have a doubt he could be a good safety, a decent wildcat back/3rd down back, or a starting WR if we wanted him to focus on any of those things. But, I like him in his mixed role: kick returner, punt returner, gunner, WR on maybe 45% of offensive snaps, wild cat QB on maybe 5% of offensive snaps.
- Bold prediction: by week 12, one way or another, James Davis will be our primary 1st down and 2nd down RB,.
- I have some thoughts on the QB situation, but I’m going to put that in a different post or comment.
- I’m really unsure about the right side of our line. I still think I want Womack and Tucker as the starters. St. Clair sure didn’t help his case in my book with the penalties.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 23, 2009 10:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would say Dqwell is no.2 on defense
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Aug 23, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Wright a good deal more than D’Qwell.
by danvail on Aug 24, 2009 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way. D’Qwell is a guy that can drag a guy down 4-6 yards down field as a ILB. He’s alright in pass coverage, but doesn’t make impact plays. All-in-all, I’d say he is an exactly average starting ILB.
Wright is a playmaker already and the potential to be a top CB in the league for years to come.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 24, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think it is clear cut. Mangini has implied that DQ is our second best defensive player.
by Roger Dorn on Aug 24, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. I think Wright is going to be a stud at CB and D’Qwell is only average at LB. You’re right that he doesn’t make many impact plays. I know Mangini said he liked DQ as our #2 defensive player when he first came here but I have a feeling that will change as the season progresses.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 24, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
D’Qwell is not asked to blitz a lot. In terms of making game-changing plays, that will probably never be his role. In a 3-4 the MLB needs to be reliable and make every tackle when the time comes. I think D’Qwell is extremely solid in the role he is asked to play in, which is why he gets the praise. He is definitely an above average LB.
by Roger Dorn on Aug 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure. I know in this scheme he isn’t going to get bunches of sacks, but how bout some more TFLs? How bout hit a guy and driving him backwards instead of being dragged for an extra yard or two? How bout shedding blockers and going forward instead of running around them and getting to the ball a step too late.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 24, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I probably don’t watch the LBs enough, but this strikes me as hearsay. I could take your word for it that Jackson takes bad routes and makes too many tackles well after the line of scrimmage, or I could note that DQ led the league in tackles and was widely praised for his play last season.
by Roger Dorn on Aug 24, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could note that DQ led the league in tackles and was widely praised for his play last season.
we know the pitfalls of counting stats of course…and i think you’re exaggerating about his being “widely” praised. i’m hard pressed to recall (without checking) much in the way of recent praise from anyone not named eric mangini
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 24, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess my point is that until I see a professional’s explanation that DQ is overrated or not as good as the numbers implied, I will tend to believe the only professional opinion that we have (Mangini….and Phil Savage to an extent.)
by Roger Dorn on Aug 24, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
which is fair. but let’s keep the context in mind of what mangini actually said as a brand new coach in a new city looking for “positives”…again, w/o going back to verify, he mentioned that d’q stands out on this defense, right? a bit like being the skinniest kid at fat camp.
i don’t see any argument that d’q is anything but average at LB so far. not saying that can’t change, but i don’t think we’ve got anything that would tell us otherwise right now.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 24, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have watched a number of his press conferences, and I don’t feel like revisiting them, but I would say his excitement about DQ goes beyond just him standing out amongst the defense. The way he talks about Jackson indicates to me that he feels he is one of the best in the game.
FYi, I do not want this to be a DQ versus Wright thing, who I think is also potentially outstanding, just trying to stand up for DQ.
by Roger Dorn on Aug 24, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did get some pub from yahoo and, i think, si.com for being a big time player. If I remember right, both articles were centered around how little he is paid for what he is worth.
That said, I still think DQ is, if anything, overrated.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 24, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’d be hard-pressed to call him overrated outside of the Browns community. If I were to ask a random selection of people I know who follow football (none of which like the Browns), not one of them would have anything constructive to say about D’Qwell Jackson.
He may be overrated in the sense that Mangini and some Browns fans view him as a near excellent MLB, which you don’t think is the case.
by Roger Dorn on Aug 24, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I meant in the context of Browns fans, and apparently, Mangini.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 24, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say D´Quell is a heat seeker. Employing such a player, indicates to me that the coach did not trust his defensive alignment. That happens when defense tries to be an offense, meaning employing a playbook instead of making sure guys have their assignments and areas covered. He´s the big compensator and maybe quite adept at doing that. Is he primo primo at inside linebacker as it will be played, forwards, backwards, sideways…? I would imagine in asking for a guy who can shed blocks, we´ve ended up with a cumbersome athlete. We need guys who can play heavy and play light.
by mooncamping on Aug 25, 2009 5:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This makes me lean more towards Eric Wright.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 25, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i thought you said he was a roaming rhino
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Aug 26, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jackson reacts quicker to the ball and recognizes plays quicker than a lot of LBs in the league. He is very good at that.
Romeo/Mel just didn’t want LBs to take chances to get TFLs or make “impact plays”, they stressed getting sure thing tackles, even if that meant letting the ballcarrier get a few yards before hand.
I do not contend that Jackson has made enough impact plays to this point, but the scheme certainly wasn’t helping him do so and might have been hindering his ability to do so. For all we know, he was doing 100% of what the coaches told him to do, exactly how they told him to do it.
Let’s see him in a (please, dear lord) more aggressive scheme designed to get those impact plays before we say that he cant do it.
by rufio on Aug 28, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was actually hoping DA wouldn’t have this good of a game. A bad outing, and I think Quinn would have the job by Monday morning. Instead, we have to suffer through at least another week of this “competition”.
I’ve never been a fan of DA, but this whole thing has made me really sour on Quinn. I mean, if Mangini, who should have no personal reason for choosing anyone but the best QB for our team, doesn’t think Quinn is clearly ahead of DA, in makes me think Quinn doesn’t have much of a future. I just feel I really know what DA is: a slightly below average QB with a big arm, an inconsistent demeanor and confidence, and no touch to speak of. But If Quinn can’t be that, in the eyes of now two purportedly defensive and conservative head coaches, I just can’t remain too hopeful for his future.
I am beginning to agree with the negative commentators on the radio and papers that say the 2010 QB is very possibly not on this roster.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 23, 2009 10:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I am beginning to agree with the negative commentators on the radio and papers that say the 2010 QB is very possibly not on this roster.
i’m not going to disagree with this comment…but what i will say is that i believe anderson will always be really enticing for coaches b/c of his big-arm, big-play ability. you can make up for a lot of shortcomings with that howitzer. what i’m saying is that i think it’s hard to turn your back on a pro bowl qb w/ that kind of arm in favor of a guy w/ 2 starts who doesn’t necessarily blow you away w/ any one physical attribute.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 24, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a horrible decision maker though. Just really, really poor at going through reads quickly. I think a team may give him a flyer, but I don’t see the Browns reciveing any type of significant value for him.
by gahnki on Aug 24, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think we might be able to get more than you seem to suggest here, but ultimately i agree with you. he’s proven himself to be a horrible decision maker, and that doesn’t appear likely to change. the big arm, though, is a little bit like seeing a 7-footer (kwame brown) in hoops…hard to resist the urge to give it a go.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 24, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the big arm, though, is a little bit like seeing a 7-footer (kwame brown) in hoops…hard to resist the urge to give it a go.
Definitely.
by gahnki on Aug 24, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked the results from Anderson, but the process was still too messy for me. There were still mistakes and bad throws, but there was also an awful lot of rushed throws as well. He didn’t seem to go through his reads as efficiently as Quinn. The stat line looks great for Anderson, but if we were playing anyone other than the Lions, I’m not so sure he doesn’t have a bad game.
by gahnki on Aug 23, 2009 10:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Right. As I said above, he had more bad throws besides the one interception. I don’t like when reporters claim that his only bad throw was the pick and they forget about his other passes where he missed open receivers.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 24, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's the game thread
and how do i participate?
by Cavs4 life on Aug 24, 2009 12:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you look on the front page?
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 24, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You´ve got to give perks to Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn for stepping up and showing what they´re worth. Both have to be feeling that the Browns fans don´t want to be strung along by either of them for another season. Consensus should be, that if you can´t have either, you keep neither. By not totally tanking it, they are giving us a chance to trade them as good Browns products. This is a professional football club with a new GM and head coach, I wouldn´t be surprised if they procur their type of quarterback before the season starts.
I still need more evidence that Joshua Cribbs can play the freaky flanker position, and represent the scary threat in the short yardage passing, sweep and reverse, dominate horizontally outside the offensive line type guy, I am seeking. If he can´t lock that down, all he would do for me is continue to return punts and kickoffs. To think he´s so great he could play defense, is nonsense.
James Davis, fundamentally sound, but a college level talent. Let´s not go overboard with the hype here.
I want more commentary about how the inside linebackers and outside linebackers are suited towards their responsibilities in the 3-4, and I want the cornerbacks tested in run support, they better be racking up assists. In my mind they are too small, and should be duking it out for the free safety position. If we don´t get anyone else, my starters at cornerback would certainly be the larger Hamza and Pool.
Expect Mangini to skip the rhetoric, and institute whatever he wants. It´s two more preseason games. If we want to see changes before regular season we´ve got to get with it.
by mooncamping on Aug 24, 2009 6:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I still need more evidence that Joshua Cribbs can play the freaky flanker position, and represent the scary threat in the short yardage passing, sweep and reverse, dominate horizontally outside the offensive line type guy, I am seeking.
Erm, he can?
James Davis, fundamentally sound, but a college level talent. Let´s not go overboard with the hype here.
This is the only thing I agree on with you so far. Davis has talent but let’s not put so much pressure on him as to call him a starter before season’s end.
by skipkirk on Aug 24, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know why I would actually waste my time, but I’m a little bored this morning.
I still need more evidence that Joshua Cribbs can play the freaky flanker position, and represent the scary threat in the short yardage passing, sweep and reverse, dominate horizontally outside the offensive line type guy, I am seeking. If he can´t lock that down, all he would do for me is continue to return punts and kickoffs. To think he´s so great he could play defense, is nonsense.
Josh Cribbs has basically played the #2 WR spot the past 2 weeks. He looks like a regular WR, not some decoy/only screen passes and end around plays guy that you describe. I’m not sure you’ve watched the preseason games with this comment. Also, the main reason to think he could play defense is his solid amazing play the last few seasons as a gunner on special teams. He hits, and hits hard. He is a very good open field tackler. And he has good football instincts. I’m not sure you watched the Browns punt and kick off coverage with this comment.
James Davis, fundamentally sound, but a college level talent. Let´s not go overboard with the hype here.
Please tell me what you mean here. He was a very good college RB. Now he is a rookie and has shined through training camp and taken advantage of the time he’s got in the preseason. Also, my comment that he will be our starting RB by the end of the year has more to do with Lewis’ suckiness and age and Harrison’s fragility than it does with Davis hype. Still, I think the kid could be good.
I want the cornerbacks tested in run support, they better be racking up assists. In my mind they are too small, and should be duking it out for the free safety position. If we don´t get anyone else, my starters at cornerback would certainly be the larger Hamza and Pool.
The reason I was happy to see Hall and Wimbley play contain so well is because you don’t want to have your CB’s keying in on running plays too much. And at 5-10, 190-200, Wright and McDonald are actually pretty big for NFL QBs. To put them at FS would be a waste of their coverage skills and speed. Hamza Abdullah likely is getting cut, and Pool would never be able to keep up with NFL WRs. That is simply a joke. Has Abdullah ever played corner in his life? This comment makes me think you’ve never watched an NFL or NCAA football game before.
Expect Mangini to skip the rhetoric, and institute whatever he wants. It´s two more preseason games. If we want to see changes before regular season we´ve got to get with it.
Not quite sure what you are trying to say, but Mangini was full go with the rhetoric yesterday.
Conclusion- shut up.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 24, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talk it up. You´re just playing coy on half your commentary. I think you are a stooge, using rhetoric to get the wrong type of player playing the wrong scheme. Your sheeps´ coat would seem to be consensus and common sense, but in reality you´re just pushing commentary by uninformed people, picking the adverse comments and opinions. You are a manipulator of a minority positioned to act for the majority.
The only point I will comment on is, sorry earl, outside linebackers do not play outside containment that is reserved for defensive ends in a 4-3. And, sorry big logic guy, we will absolutely need our cornerbacks keying in on run plays, as they are the second impactors on gang tackles. We don´t want spiders willing to neglect the underneath routes, and cherry picking the medium to long routes.
by mooncamping on Aug 25, 2009 6:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The first priority of cornerbacks is to cover wide receivers, not make tackles on running plays.
I’ll ask this for the millionth time — do you ever watch NFL football?
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 25, 2009 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I´ll tell you for the first time, the first priority for a cornerback is to prevent yardage of any type. They are not exempt from tackling and contact, even if they are midgets.
by mooncamping on Aug 26, 2009 6:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee if you saw a 5’10", 195lbs CB in real life (Eric Wright), you wouldn’t be calling him a “midget”. I bet he looks pretty jacked compared to a normal person.
The only DB on the team who has noticeably shied away from contact has been Brandon McDonald. And they’ve all made tackles and delt with contact consistently.
If you can’t cover, the other team won’t even need to bother running at you, they’ll just throw over your head over and over and over.
by rufio on Aug 26, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the first priority for a cornerback is to prevent yardage of any type
Nope.
by fwembt on Aug 26, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So does that mean you havent watched football?
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Aug 26, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the browns play the 3-4, professor.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 25, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I don’t know where to start here, so we’ll go from the beginning:
You´re just playing coy on half your commentary. I think you are a stooge,
Not sure what you mean. Cribbs has played in a regular WR capacity for two weeks now and is clearly competiting for the #2 WR spot. He is a great gunner and could be a solid safety, but that is now moot. Don’t see how any of this is coy or me being a “stooge”.
using rhetoric to get the wrong type of player playing the wrong scheme.
Maybe if you wrote in more complete thoughts it would be easier to have a conversatoin with you. I’m not sure if you are talking about Cribbs here, still, but I’m not doing anything. I’m commenting on what Mangini is clearly doing. And whether you are talking about Cribbs, Quinn/DA, the RBs, or the OLBs, or the CBs, everyone else in the world seems to agree that if nothing else, everyone is playing the correct position. If you think you are smarter, in a football sense, than Mangini, Bowden, Ritch, Crennell, Ryan, and every other coach that has had some of these guys, you just need to quit. No coach, I repeat not one, would move Davis or Pool or McDonald or Wright to any different position. So just quit that stuff, or take it somewhere else.
Your sheeps´ coat would seem to be consensus and common sense, but in reality you´re just pushing commentary by uninformed people, picking the adverse comments and opinions. You are a manipulator of a minority positioned to act for the majority.
This doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Again, try to bear down and write in complete thoughts. My thoughts that Wright is a CB and not a FS is not a even a thought. It is not an opinion. It is not a concept. I don’t really know if it is a sheeps’ coat, but it isn’t even part of common sense. Yes, the earth is round, and yes, Eric Wright is a cornerback. End of discussion. He would be a corner for Belichek, any of the Ryan bros, Tomlin, Reid, anyone. He is a corner. Get over it. That is not a minority or a majority position. It just is the fact. And it will continue to be.
The only point I will comment on is, sorry earl, outside linebackers do not play outside containment that is reserved for defensive ends in a 4-3.
Well, at least I know you are sort of talking about football here. I don’t know “earl”, but I do know that Mangini and Ryan are running a 3-4 here for the Cleveland Browns. Just as Tucker and Crennell did before them. So, I’m not sure what the role of a 4-3 DE has to do with the Cleveland Browns. We don’t run that system.
And, sorry big logic guy, we will absolutely need our cornerbacks keying in on run plays, as they are the second impactors on gang tackles.
Football is a game with 11 people on each side of the ball. The offense has two fundamental option to advance the ball down the field: running and passing. In a normal formation there are 2-3 “Wide Receivers” on the field for the offense. Their primary objective is to catch balls thrown to them by the “Quarter Back”. On defense, the Wide Receivers are guarded by “Corner Backs”, whose main objective is to keep the Wide Receivers from catching the ball. Sure, a Wide Receiver also blocks on running plays, and a corner will get a few tackles on running plays. But that is NOT their primary role on the their team.
We don´t want spiders willing to neglect the underneath routes, and cherry picking the medium to long routes.
This is borderline nonsense. You just had a sentence about corners supported the run defense, and now you are talking about underneath routes vs. long routes. I’m not sure if you need an English lesson or a football lesson more, but I just don’t have the time to do both for you.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 25, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No comment.
Well wait.
No.
No comment.
Well….
No.
by mooncamping on Aug 26, 2009 6:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me get this straight. When faced with legitimate questions/criticism you just cut and run? You, my friend, are a coward. Answer the man’s questions.
by fwembt on Aug 26, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just see how evaluation of Quinn is complete in some minds. We know what DA is, Quinn hasn’t had that opportunity. I would love to see 12 starts in a row, then evaluate.
I cringe when I hear 2010 and draft a QB, when will it end.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 24, 2009 9:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really want to think of having to draft another QB either, but what else do you do if Quinn can’t even win the starting job and DA is the DA from 2008? I feel like we will use at least a later round selection on a QB.
by rufio on Aug 24, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree that I, personally, would love to see Quinn more before making a judgment. But Mangini and Crennel and their staffs have seen him quite a bit more than you or me. And at no point has he impressed them enough that they thought he would give the Browns more of a chance to win than DA. (Save Quinn’s two games last year). I really want to trust Mangini a little here.
I don’t want to think about 2010 either, but let’s be real. Quinn has had an entire off season and 1/2 of a preseason to prove he is the QB of the future. He has, in the minds of the people that get to make the decision, failed so far. He has 2 weeks left to do so.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 24, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also think Mangin and co. are the type to make this evaluation heavily dependent on game situations. And in that regard, they’ve got 4 Quinn drives to go off of, not including tape of 2+ games last year. That’s simply not enough. I think we could all see this going down to the last minute from the get go, I just don’t agree with it.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
by kwoog on Aug 24, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone over at the Lions site did a play-by-play analysis of the game, which had to take a lot of time and effort. The post is geared towards how the Lions handled things, but you might want to browse it still.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Aug 24, 2009 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is there a feeling that James Davis has eclipsed Jerome Harrison as far as the “change of pace” back? Remember, Harrison has shown us the long ball talent under the bright lights of, uh, Buffalo.
by Les Fleurs Du Mal on Aug 24, 2009 12:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Harrison’s problem is that every time he gets tackled he is hurt for 3 weeks.
by Ryan Kelsey on Aug 24, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, obviously, he should just never get tackled.
by fwembt on Aug 24, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked what I saw from DA this week. I know it puts me in the minority here, but I would like to see him win the starting spot. If I’m being honest, either of them winning it would be nice, just so we can move on with the season.
by fwembt on Aug 24, 2009 1:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My concern has always been the fact that Anderson will completely bomb when the pressure is on, and when the conditions aren’t ideal. He can look great in perfect conditions, only to completely ruin the season because of a stiff breeze and a little cold.
by Roger Dorn on Aug 24, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we could get a consistent performance, or at least a little bit more conservative play from him, when he isn’t on fire, then I would not mind as much. It’s the fact that he single-handedly loses games that is a major cause for concern.
by Roger Dorn on Aug 24, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is not a hard decision - There are no hard decisions
One thing I have learned in life is this. There are no hard decisions. If A is better than B you pick A. If B is better than A you pick B. If they are so close that you cannot decide – JUST PICK ONE!! The worse thing you can do is string things out and be indecisive allowing a halfway measure of each which usually results in mediocracy and frankly smacks of a lack of courageous leadership. I am not saying that letting someone go who you have respect for is easy on an emotional level but you cannot let that derail progress and getting on with the plan.
No you cannot keep both Quinn and Anderson. The odd man out will be unhappy and the chosen one will be forever looking over his shoulder with feelings of insecurity. The best backups are guys who can carry the load but not be a constant challenger for the starting spot. I really think this is hurting you guys. Your starter is not getting enough snaps with the first unit for the WRs and RBs to get comfortable. Both of your QBs have their strengths and weaknesses and Mangini, you Browns fans and everyone else knows what they are by now. I don’t think you will ever be a contender as long as both of these guys are there. Pick one and move the other out and maybe get something you need more in some kind of a deal. There are several teams who would like to have either Quinn or Anderson. It is time to deal. At least this is the take of this Bengals fan.
" My enemy said "Love your enemy". I obeyed and loved myself." Gibran
by JUNGLEJOHN on Aug 24, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Except we don’t know if A or B is better. Which makes this a hard decision.
by fwembt on Aug 25, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please see above fwembt
If they are so close you can’t decide then it really does not matter who you pick. The damage being done in terms of leadership development and preparation thru repetition is greater than the potential talent differential. That was my point. You need a leader on the field that is clear cut and decisive. Mangini, IMO, is making a HUGE leadership mistake here and your team development is suffering because he is showing one of the all time biggest leadership mistakes because he is afraid of making a mistake. That is plain to anyone with expertise in the subject. He needs to make a decisive move, pick an on field general and throw all of his support behind him so he can develop his team on the field. Mangini is taking the easy way out and hurting your team thru his inability to make a decisive and courageous move. I teach and lecture on leadership and team building in the work place believe me battles have been lost and companies driven into failure because of this basic leadership fault. History is rife with examples. Take my word for it. I know what I am talking about.
Of course if he continues on this road in his decision making it works to my benefit as your team will be easier to beat and this example will be a great story to use in my lectures as an example of poor poor leadership and it’s consequences.
" My enemy said "Love your enemy". I obeyed and loved myself." Gibran
by JUNGLEJOHN on Aug 25, 2009 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am with you. Partly because I am biased towards Quinn and also you are correct on your analysis of leadership. Boy if there is ever a team that needs an offensive leader this is it.
"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"
by Grockcubs on Aug 25, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now I follow. I missed your main point last night.
by fwembt on Aug 25, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I recced this
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Aug 26, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think Quinn is the likely starter for the regular season. Mangini is constantly commenting about the QB needing to have a wide variety of skills. Quinn is showing this, and Anderson is not. It would not surprise me at all if Mangini has his mind made up already, and is choosing not to share the news with the public. Will we ever know why (trade value, competitive edge, practicality)? Probably not.
by NM Dawg on Aug 24, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It would not surprise me at all if Mangini has his mind made up already, and is choosing not to share the news with the public
this has occurred to me a bunch recently, and i think that mangini is much closer to a decision (if not already at a decision) than he is letting on. still, i can’t figure out why he wouldn’t disclose that to the team (and public), so my theory falls apart…
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 24, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To make the Vikings prepare for both QBs before week 1? That only makes sense if we don’t get a starter until right before that game.
by rufio on Aug 25, 2009 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just watched the first half on tivo…did brodney pool get concussed again?
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 24, 2009 7:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He was con-somethinged. That’s for sure.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 24, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what the PD is speculating.
And that’s disastrous for us.
Count me on the “cut Sorensen, keep Lockett” bandwagon.
by rufio on Aug 25, 2009 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what the PD is speculating.
And if he did, we’re in trouble back there.
Count me on the “cut Sorensen, keep Lockett” bandwagon.
by rufio on Aug 25, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have been on that bandwagon for a while
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Aug 26, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A little random, but I am a little disappointed in Brian Robiskie to this point. It sounded like he had a few good practices, but I honestly expected him to be closer to ready by now.
I know it takes rookies some time to learn a playbook, adjust to the NFL game, etc.—particularly at WR—but Robo just seems like the kind of guy who would not only have a good jump on that kind of learning, but also be able to learn new things quickly as well.
Hopefully, with a choice at QB and some regular season games, Robo can make an impact and get a real chance to impress without necessarily having to earn a job with the starters.
I am hoping that Cribbs stepping up at WR and Massaquoi being able to adjust a little better than I thought he would are the reasons Robiskie is not #2 on the depth chart right now.
by rufio on Aug 25, 2009 3:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would say Robo is closer to number 5 than number 2
by Roger Dorn on Aug 25, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, technically it doesn’t matter. Massaquoi definitely has been the pleasant surprise (even though he was drafted only 2 picks below) but If Massaquoi is outperforming Robo then good for him and good for us. Only bad for Robo.
by skipkirk on Aug 25, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Be Patient Browns Fans!
We have a relatively weak schedule this year especially as compared to last year’s. The bad part is that we have a lot of the tough teams early in the year. After 8 games we could definitely be looking at 2 and 6.. 3 and 5 if we are lucky. We only have 3 home games in the first 8 and all the teams we play in those weeks had much better records than the Browns last year. Even the hapless Bengals had a better season last year by virtue of their tie.
So if we are 4 and 4 after 8 I’d say the team has improved significantly and might even garner (dare I say it) a playoff berth. If they are 3 and 5 I’d say they are somewhat improved. If they are 2 and 6 I’d say there has been little or no improvement over last year. My prediction would be that we’ll be looking at 3 and 5 after the first 8 games.
So why be patient? I think the Browns have a really good chance of finishing strong in the last half of the season. I’ll be looking for cheap tickets at the half-way point.
Brownsyup
by Brownsyup on Aug 25, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 and 6? dang, you must see the glass as empty
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Aug 26, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Be patient with Robiski
I have followed Robiski in his college career as I am an alumni. Brian is a thinker and tends to over do it at times. He had similar problems in his early college career. He is the kind of player who needs to know not only what to do but why before he can completely buy into it and get loose and confident. Guys like this always seem a bit slower on the uptake but once they “get it” they have a tendancy to had a huge growth spurt. The coaches need to recognize this and allow him to develop. If they do you will see a very good athlete unleash his true potential. With him it is as much mental as physical. Be patient and IMO you will be glad you did. I think his upside down the road is greater than Massaquoi.
" My enemy said "Love your enemy". I obeyed and loved myself." Gibran
by JUNGLEJOHN on Aug 25, 2009 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this. I like Robiski and I think time will show that he was a good pick.
Brownsyup
by Brownsyup on Aug 25, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Robiskie has an ‘e’ at the end
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Aug 26, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think that Massaqoui has more upside. Robo was supposed to be more polished
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Aug 26, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Post-Game
I can’t believe how refreshing it is to hear a head coach talk about actual football and specific improvements to be made in a post-game interview. I got so tired of Crennel and his “we didn’t do things well” and “they did things better” shtick. I say Mangini is a great improvement over Crennel but that really isn’t saying much. I like what I see so far but only time will tell if it is enough. At this time of the season, hope in the Browns is at its nadir. This is our time!
Brownsyup
by Brownsyup on Aug 25, 2009 3:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Am I crazy or ...
Another thing that I noticed in watching this last game was coaches talking to players as they came off the field. Am I crazy or is this something relatively new for the Browns? I suppose it could be that it’s preseason, or maybe there were just more shots of the sidelines in this game, but it’s something that I noticed with other teams during past regular seasons, but not with the Browns.
by JustBob on Aug 25, 2009 8:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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