Quinn to Stay Benched, Derek Anderson Named Starting QB
by Chris Pokorny on Sep 30, 2009 11:33 AM EDT
in General News
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PrintDerek Anderson could have given up hope in the offseason that he would never start for the Cleveland Browns again. Instead, he hung in there, thanks to the "shot" that Eric Mangini offered him. Four weeks into the NFL season, Derek Anderson is once again the starting quarterback of the Browns. In that one sentence, there is both misery and a touch of joy.
"Giving Derek the opportunity is something I think will help us offensively,'' stated Mangini. "I'm not saying it's all Brady. Derek did some things that were positive and that's what it's based on.''
This is a tough situation as a fan. I want to win, and right now, I believe Anderson can at least attempt to move the ball better than Quinn has been doing solely because he is willing to gun it down the field. However, Brady Quinn still has not received a fair shot to grow like many other quarterbacks have received, and if he is our long-term answer, he should be playing.
Here's an interesting note though: if the Pittsburgh Steelers continue to struggle and lose to the San Diego Chargers this week, and then the Browns are able to somehow beat the Bengals at home, guess who would be in the cellar of the division? Not us.
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SIgh. Anyone have an idea what this team is going for? Immediate success? Building for the future?
10 quarters. That is what Mangini gave Quinn to prove himself. I fear that we will go into this off-season still without a clear picture of what kind of player Brady Quinn is.
10 long miserable quarters mind you. I understand the want for most people to see what Quinn can offer and he can’t do that without playing time. Granted Anderson threw 3 picks but he also moved down the field better. If he can start making better decisions with his throws he’ll get back to his 07 form. I’m not saying he’s going to save this team from a horrible season but maybe we can pull a couple wins out of him.
Now, with this change do we view it as a good thing, bad thing, or a blessing in disguise?
"It’s tough," Martinez said. "This is my house. This is my home."
We'll miss you, Vic
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Sep 30, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Granted Anderson threw 3 picks but he also moved down the field better.
Do you not see the problem with this statement? 3 INTs in a half.
If he can start making better decisions with his throws he’ll get back to his 07 form.
What has a better chance of happening? Quinn getting more comfortable with the offense and starts throwing downfield more, or DA all the sudden stops throwing the ball to the other team?
Now, with this change do we view it as a good thing, bad thing, or a blessing in disguise?
I view it is a coaches desperate grasp at fixing a bad situation. Not to mention the great sign it sends to your locker room. The entire NFL is getting a lesson on how NOT to handle a QB situation.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Though to be fair, Mangini has said time and time again that there’s competition at every position. That no one has a spot locked down.
I don’t like the decision, and I didn’t like the decision to pull Quinn last week, but it’s not like this is coming out of left field.
by e.c. matter on Sep 30, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
And to be fair, Mangini has said that ball security is part of a QB’s job.
And it should be out of left field. Quinn got 10 quarters against 3 of the top 7 defenses in the NFL. (Granted those team numbers may be inflated some due to the fact that they played the Browns.)
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
And to be fair, neither QB has done an adequate job securing the football.
by e.c. matter on Sep 30, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that’s shocking.
As for me, I’m indifferent. I still want Quinn to get his chances but he hasn’t shown anything in the first 2 1/2 games. He looks like he has regressed from last year’s performances. Of course our problems on offense are more than just the QB, but let’s see what Anderson can do. Maybe he has learned from his mistakes last year and he’ll give us a better opportunity to move the football. Maybe he can regain some of his ’07 form and make himself in to our starter for the next couple years.
I still think it’s too soon to give up on Quinn. Hopefully he will get a chance sometime down the road. I really thought he would play well this year when given the opportunity, but he hasn’t had much help from his teammates.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I really could not say things better than this.
by DisplacedBuckeye on Sep 30, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m thinking the same thing. anderson starting really doesn’t shock me at all. i’d prefer to just play out the season with brady. but, i am still willing to give anderson a chance.
hey brad, what do you think about wedge being fired? i just came home and found that out. do you think it was the right decision?
Yes, he needed to be fired. It should have happened a few months ago. I was surprised that they announced the decision now instead of waiting until the end of the season, but he needed to go. He had his moments but it’s time for a new manager in Cleveland.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course he needed to go. The team has sucked for 2 straight years and he has an overall losing record in MLB. There was no reason to keep him this year, even less to keep him for next year. This shouldn’t even be a question.
I don’t know, Quinn hasn’t really ever looked good. He had one decent half against a terrible Broncos defense last year. Sometimes there is a reason nobody in the 1st round wanted Quinn.
I think Anderson gives the Browns a much better chance to win this year. But he offers nothing for competing in the future.
I would have let Quinn play out the year, prove he can’t do it, and then drafted a QB or signed a FA next year. In my opinion, Mangini is feeling the heat to win now, and Anderson gives the team a better chance to do that. He’s playing Anderson in order to save his own skin, which is pretty short sighted.
Yes, but if Mangini gets fired within one season, then he will probably never get a head coaching job again. He probably needs to be short-sighted for his own sake. If Quinn is garbage as you suggest, then I understand the move completely.
This actually is the only way this move makes sense to me: if Mangini is worried about not surviving this season. The long term move is so clearly to let Quinn play it out, at least for another 6-8 weeks. He must be that worried about looking so bad that he may get fired if they don’t win a couple games and look a little better.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe that’s his thought process, but it still doesn’t make any sense. How bad does it make you look to take all offseason to decide who’s the starting QB, then bench him after 2 1/2 games, AND THEN put in a QB who throws 3 picks in a half. We know what we’re going to get with Anderson, inaccuracy and bad decisions, give Quinn a chance to prove himself without having to worry about exactly this situation happening. Brady was probably so worried about getting picked and subsequently benched that he wouldn’t throw down field, apparently Mangina prefers to turn the ball over six times a game.
by Clevsports on Sep 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you Pokorny for giving me something to be optimistic about this weekend: It’s possible (very slight chance) the Browns could be ahead of the Steelers after this weekend.
It kind of reminds me of that scene from Dumb and Dumber.
“I’d say more like one out of a million.”
“So you’re telling me there’s a chance… *Yes!!!”
Go Browns!
Next year?
This begs the question, who is the quarterback next year. We already know Derek Anderson is not the answer. It appears they have given up on Brady Quinn already. It’s tough to say he needs more time when he has already been with the organization for 3 years, even if he hasn’t played much, when you see Flacco, Ryan and now Sanchez playing the way they did as true rookies.
I was a Quinn supporter but he didn’t get it done.
My guess? A veteran comes in for the next couple years. Maybe Donovan McNabb. Kolb is playing well now. McNabb is old and injury prone. He’d probably be available.
The Browns certainly can’t go draft another quarterback since they botched this up.
Next year you can bet Mangini will draft his guy….
by Red-Right-88 on Sep 30, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt it, he could have drafted his guy this year at #5. Instead he traded down and ended up with Alex Mack and two receivers who don’t see the field too often.
Oh yeah, and Abram Elam, a 29 year old safety.
That just means that he didn’t think Sanchez was his guy. And he saved a ton of cap space and added 2 defensive starters, a 3rd string QB and a starter at C and future starter at WR.
But besides the trade being really good, it really just meant he wanted to see what he had with Anderson and Quinn first and knew that next year’s QB rookie and free agent class should be better than last year’s.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
2 mediocre defensive starters. We are talking about Eric Barton who is over 30 (I think) and Abram Elam who is nearly 30. Two guys who probably would start on other teams, but aren’t difference makers at all.
A 3rd string QB? Trading for a 3rd string QB seems pretty stupid when you can pick up a 3rd string QB pretty much any time you need too.
Yes, Alex Mack is a starter and he might someday be great, but right now he isn’t even good, which isn’t something you want to see when you drafted a center! with a 1st round pick. If he had to go OL, Michael Oher was sitting right there and plays a much more demanding position and a position of need (RT) on the Browns.
Maybe one of the 2nd round WR will work out, but I don’t think you can call that trade a slam dunk when all the Browns got was the mediocrity of Barton, Elam, Ratliff, and Mack. That isn’t very much for a team that needs stars and playmakers, not just ordinary guys with little or no upside.
Actually, they got Coleman, not Barton in that deal. You say “Mack is a starter and he might be great someday” and then “maybe one of the 2nd round WR will work out” answers your question. It is a move that can’t be evaluated for another few years. We are dealing with draft picks.
We needed a bunch of depth and a bunch of depth at a bunch of positions, the move was a no-brainer. If you think Sanchez on this team would make us good, you are delusional. That would mean Sanchez, but no Massaquoi, Coleman, Elam, Mack. And probably not enough cap room to sign Barton and less cap room for the next several seasons. It may seem hard to believe, but that team sounds way worse to me.
Right. This team needed (and still needs) depth. One QB isn’t going to help. I doubt Sanchez would be looking much better than Quinn or DA right now in this Browns offense, and everybody would be saying the Browns screwed up by drafting him.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I get this. But sometimes you need to take a chance. They way the Ravens took a chance on Flacco, the Falcons took a chance on Ryan, and the Jets took a chance on Sanchez. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn’t. But at least those teams rolled the dice.
It’s much better than treading water forever.
Mangini has had one draft to take that chance- and he passed on one QB. Savage took that chance on Quinn. I don’t see who or what is “treading water forever”
Exactly. How does not drafting a QB in your first draft mean you will be treading water forever? The Browns just took a QB in the first round two years ago, and gave up their first round pick last year in the process. We can’t be picking QB’s in the first round every other year. We needed to give Quinn a shot to see if he’s the guy. Maybe he’s not, but you can’t say the Browns need to “take a shot” — they’ve taken plenty of shots, and so far they usually miss.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I totally disagree. You take talent when it is there. Sanchez was sitting there and they let him go. But OK, I think I am definitely in the minority on this one.
That’s easy to say now that Sanchez has looked good. The Browns took Tim Couch and Courtney Brown, who were both regarded as huge talents, and that didn’t work out so well for them.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course not, and it hasn’t. But you’re acting like taking Sanchez — or anyone else — in the top 10 was a sure thing.
I guess it comes down to what Kokinis and Mangini thought of Quinn this offeseason. If they knew he wasn’t the future then they should have taken Sanchez, or at least thought about taking Sanchez, but if they thought that they needed to see more of Quinn before deciding on him then trading down for depth and more picks was the right move.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
If they thought that Quinn was the answer and then benched him after 3 games, it shouldn’t give you much confidence in their talent evaluation.
I still think they should be playing Quinn for the whole year. At least then they could find out if he is the answer or not.
Well, they really didn’t get much of a chance to see him before the draft. I’m sure they watched film, of course, but there weren’t any practices or live action.
And there’s a difference between what you said and what I said. I said if they knew he wasn’t the future, and you said they thought he was the answer. There’s a big gulf in between — maybe they didn’t know he was the answer but they needed more time to evaluate him and give him the chance to establish himself. Maybe what they say in trainging camp and these first three games showed them Quinn wasn’t the answer. I don’t know. But you can’t really expect them to come in before ever seeing Quinn practice, let alone play in a game, and expect them to make a definitive answer about him.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
How much of Sanchez’ success so far is because he has a rock solid O line and time to make his reads?
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Quite a bit.
The Jets had an abysmal line in 2005. Mangini used his first two picks as Jets coach on Linemen ( Nick Mangold, D’Brickshaw Ferguson) and now they’re one of the best lines in football.
Clearly he should have passed on Ferguson and taken Leinart instead.
Find me one credible ource that says Brick is better than Thomas. D’Brickshaw has been very average.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Correct me if I’m wrong e.c., but I think the point is that Furgeson is good, not that he is great or better than Thomas.
I was going off the “He allowed less sacks than Thomas.”
Brick is average. Above average at best.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Who said anything about him being better than Thomas? Thomas is the best in the league, bar none. That’s what makes him a good point of comparison
But Ferguson is a damn good tackle as well. Well worth the number 4 pick.
by e.c. matter on Sep 30, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
My fault it took it the wrong way. I still don’t think that Brick was worth the fifth pick.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he’s made the Pro Bowl yet, but I’m not sure what Cols is trying to say here. Ferguson is a really solid player- started every game since coming into the league and part of a very good line.
There are very few “can’t miss OTs” that actually miss- unlike QBs.
But some positions have more busts than others. Of course there are OT’s drafted high who don’t pan out, but their success rate is much higher than QB’s drafted in the first round. Look at the history. The success rate for QB’s in the first round over the past decade or so is 50%. Many other positions have a much higher success rate.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, Gallery is a good example of why LT is a safer and better idea for a top pick. At worst, you got a solid LG or RT.
Williams, admittedly, was a bust. But that is one in the last 10 years you can come up with? QB busts aren’t just high profile, they are really frequent.
No, you just get a guard with a top five pick and all of the crazy salary implications that you said I was igonoring. If you are picking that high and there is a good QB and you have a need, you should take him. You’re going to paying the guy a ton anyways. You may as well do it on the most important position in football.
Williams main issue was his inability to control his weight.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
ddogg, you are exactly right. OL/DL are the safest positions to draft, b/c at worst you end up w/ a serviceable guy at a different position than you may have originally intended.
cols, you are dead-up wrong about taking a qb if there’s a good one there. qb’s and rb’s bust out at a higher rate than any other position.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
If you’d rather have Barton, Elam, Mack, Massoquoi and Coleman right now than Sanchez, you are delusional. Only one of those guys is a difference maker, and it’s certainly not a center, 3 journeymen, and a 2nd round WR.
“Difference maker”? What does that even mean? A center is hugely important. Elam has shown flashes. Coleman is a nice piece. Massaquoi has pretty high upside. And Sanchez has played 3 games, looked good in about 3 of those quarters. Forget a second that 4 of the guys we are talking about are draft picks and can’t be evaluated for years. You are still missing perspective.
We aren’t the Jets- a team that was 9-7 last year and 8-3 at one point. A team with a solid defense and an O-Line that is top 5 in the league. Sanchez on the Browns this year (without Mack, Elam, Massaquoi, Coleman, Barton) would make Quinn and Anderson’s performance against the Ravens look HOF worthy. We’d lose by 50.
Just think- that means Mike Adams or Nick Sorensen are starting. Fraley would be at Center and who would have played RG? Who plays the other ILB?
But again, its about the future, and building a team. You do that with depth on the O-Line, depth across the defense, especially on the D-Line, etc.
So what would you do differently to make the Browns a better team? They aren’t very good, I’m suggesting that not drafting Sanchez was a mistake. I think taking him makes this a better team now and definitely in the future. But what would you do differently? Or are you just going to defend every move they make?
No. We need to draft well. We don’t know if the 2009 draft was a good or bad draft yet.
We need to build depth at every position (something Mangini is attempting to do.) It is too early to tell if he did good or bad getting some new guys in.
We aren’t defending the moves, we just aren’t blasting them after three games.
I’m saying its a total rebuild. It takes time, they need to improve every position. I think, in that trade they improved at Safety, D-Line, Center, WR. That was a step in the right direction.
What would I have done differently? Go after Bart Scott or a different LB than Barton. I would have probably not drafted Robiskie. But you are fooling yourself if you think we are one move away from being anything significantly different.
I’m not saying the Browns are one move away. Just how could you say right now, that you are glad they passed on Sanchez? I don’t see how that could possibly be true.
1.) Sanchez hasn’t looked amazing- he has a good team around him and played a couple good quarters.
2.) QB is a very overrated position, in my mind.
3.) The Browns needed to fill several holes, not just one. They started to do so in that trade.
4.) Salary and cap room are important, they saved a boat load by not picking in the top 5- especially at QB.
5.) Alex Mack could be a stud. At least as big a chance as Sanchez, probably higher.
6.) I wanted to see what Quinn would be able to do with a whole camp and season as a starter (obviously, he hasn’t gotten either of these chances still).
7.) I think Quinn and Anderson are both pretty bad, but they are better than what the Jets have behind Sanchez. That is to say, Sanchez would not have won the 3 way competition, might not have even been considered. Sanchez would be sitting the bench right now in Cleveland.
Yeah, I’m glad, right now, that they passed on Sanchez.
Sure, we may have traded one of them, but I think Sanchez sits. Rookie QBs usually do, unless the team has absolutely no other respectable option.
Yea, Sanchez would not be the same guy on the Browns this year that he is on the Jets and people would be sitting here laughing about how we blew another 1st round pick on a QB. Let’s let things play out
This is undoubtably true. Sanchez would not look as good right now. He’d probably be sitting behind Anderson for the year. But how can you not wish the Browns drafted him?
And DD, no QB is not an overrated position. The only team to win the SB with a mediocre QB in the last 2 decades is the Ravens, and their defense played out of its mind in the playoffs.
And no, Roethlisberger’s crappy performance in 2005 does not count. There is absolutely no way the Steelers make it there without him playing out of his mind vs the Bengals, Colts, and Broncos. He carried that team to the SB.
The problem is this. Prior to the season, we had an unknown in Quinn, and another guy who has been wildly inconsistent, but has also made the Pro Bowl.
AT THE TIME, does it make any sense to draft ANOTHER QB. You better be 100% certain that Sanchez is going to be awesome if you are going to do that, and even after 3 games it is foolish to say you could be that certain.
In retrospect, things have become slightly more clear, but still far from a certainty.
by Roger Dorn on Sep 30, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
In addition to supporting this, I’m a firm believer in the idea that he wouldn’t be playing this well if he were with the Browns.
In fact, I doubt any rookie QB (from last years draft, or next years draft) could step into this lineup and be good. There is that much work that needs to be done.
While QB is the most important position, I think it should be one that we try to fill last, not first. A rookie QB needs to be put into a position to succeed. And if we draft another QB and put them behind our line with no running back threat and a meh receiving corps.. it will just be disaster all over again.
Trent Dilfer, of course is the poster child for a bad QB to with the superbowl. Brad Johnson is no world beater either. Rothlisberger in his first year was a mediocre QB. Eli Manning was pretty mediocre during his superbowl season.
Is it easier when you have a Tom Brady or Peyton Manning? Sure, but those guys are found all over the place, from the first round out of a major program to the sixth round to the CFL.
Brad Johnson is a good example as well, nice find. Sure, it’s possible to get lucky in the later rounds of the draft. But they are most often found in the 1st round of the NFL draft.
Roethlisberger was decidely not mediocre in the 2005 NFL playoffs, including the SB:
G Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rating
4 93 58 62.3% 803 8.63 54 7 3 101.7
Do they come more often from teh first round?
Pro bowlers from last two years:
Drew Brees- 2nd Round
Kurt Warner- Undrafted/Arena football
Eli Manning- high first round
Peyton Manning- high first round
Brett Favre- 2nd Round
Kerry Collins- high first round
Jay Cutler- mid first round
Matt Hasselbeck- 6th round
Tony Romo- Undrafted
Jeff Garcia- Undrafted/CFL
Tom Brady- 6th Round
Ben Rothlishberger- mid first round
Derek Anderson- 6th Round
I count 5 first rounders, 3 6th rounders, 3 undrafted, 2 second rounders.
Clearly, when 5 first rounders and two high 2nd rounders, then yes they most often are found at the top of the draft, especially in the first round.
2nd round isn’t 1st round. And that’s what we are talking about. Also more 6th round or later than in the first round.
Pro Bowl QBs are just as likeyl to come from the end of the draft/off the street than the first round.
Also: Vince Young, Matt Leinert, Alex Smith, JP Losman, Rex Grossman, Kyle Bollman, JaMarcus Russell, Carr, Harrington, Ramsey, Couch, Akili Smith, etc.
5 in the first round. That is by far the most of any round. The other rounds don’t all get lumped together. And of course there are busts. There are also OL busts, RB busts, etc.
It’s not any riskier to draft a QB in the 1st round than to draft a bad OT.
well, drafting a “bad” anything would appear to count as flawed strategy.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at the Steelers, then. They have Roethlisberger and are still below .500. it’s not just the QB who takes the team to a SB win, but w/o a quality OLine, you’ve got nothing
Not only that
You got a better chance to beat the Bengal’s than we do the Chargers
by steelerstyle on Sep 30, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, you had a good chance to beat the Bengals and didn’t. What the hell makes you think that we can do what you were unable to do, since we clearly have such an inferior team?
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe that wasn't clear
But I was comparing our odds on beating the chargers against your odds on beating the Bengals. I could see why you are pessimistic about the browns just keep in mind the gals only showed up to play one quarter of the game.
by steelerstyle on Oct 1, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Well. Apparently showing up to play one quarter of the game was enough to beat the Steelers.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Oct 3, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
How do we know this? So far we know of no teams. Mack went earlier than Oher.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
We also got James Davis and Coye Francies because of this trade.
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Mack has actually played pretty well except for the bad snaps. He held his own against Fat Pat and Kevin Williams in week 1 which is really impressive. Also, did not get owned by Ngata last Sunday.
Actually, this is true. But we are still talking about a center with the 23rd overall pick in the draft.
Yes at the end of the round. But that isn’t really the point. The Browns had the chance to take a difference maker with the #5 pick, and instead ended up with mediocrity and maybe a good center.
But OK, if you’d rather have Mack than Sanchez or any number of players drafted in the 1st round, that’s fine by me.
I agree with dayton that Sanchez on the Browns without the trade might be an epic disaster. I am not really upset about passing on him, he went to a better situation and is playing well. We have a lot of pieces to fill, and we need to do it by drafting well. That includes every position, we have a long way to go, so I will not be mad if we drafted solid players. Way too early to say one way or the other.
I don’t understand this line of thinking. Teams that draft in the top 10 understandably have tons of holes to fill. Sometimes they take a QB and it works out, not all of the time. Sometimes you have to take that chance.
The Browns took a chance with Tim Couch in the top 10. That didn’t work out too well.
Like I said above, the Browns picked a QB in the first round only two years ago. They had to give him a chance to see if he’s the guy or not. They can’t keep picking new QB’s every other year.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
who was qb last time we made the playoffs?
GO BROWNS!!!
by charliefryfanhaha on Oct 3, 2009 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions
i thought couch got us there
GO BROWNS!!!
by charliefryfanhaha on Oct 5, 2009 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions
my question should of read “who was the last qb to get us to the playoffs ?”
GO BROWNS!!!
by charliefryfanhaha on Oct 5, 2009 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Top 5 QBs don’t work often. And it is a huge risk. You have to pay a ton of money and valuable cap space and you are passing on more sure things like an O-Lineman.
Most teams have tried to trade down because it is so risky. And the Browns have taken that risk. And for Mangini- he had one chance and didn’t think it was the right time for the Browns. I can’t really fault him for that.
Yea, Cols you keep glossing over the money issue in drafting in the top 5. We have paid boatloads of money to failed prospects, I can see why in a complete rebuild it might be wise to avoid paying a guy a ton of money if you don’t have your heart set on them.
I think if Aaron Curry drops to 5, we stay put and pay up, otherwise I don’t think the coaches saw anyone worth that kind of money at pick 5. Sanchez has looked good….on a team that had a ton of talent already (mind you a lot of that was Eric Mangini’s doing.)
I think the mistake your making is your looking at is as Mack vs. Sanchez.
You need to look at it as Mack, Elam, Coleman, Davis, Francies, Ratliff and a TON of cap savings vs Sanchez.
I am a huge anti-Mangini guy, but that trade was the right move for the Browns. And to be honest with you I hope we trade down next year also.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I forgot to include Davis and Francies a couple times above. That trade looks very, very good to me. Even now.
What in the world are you talking about. Davis hasn’t shown anything spectacular outside of training camp where even BQ looked half decent. And just to fill you in, if you look around the league in the message boards of teams who drafted late round RB’s, they all have the same delusional thought that they got a steal out of their late round RB’s also. So either this is the deepest RB class ever, or fans like you are over-hyping these late round RB’s
And when it comes to Francies, once again he’s done absolutely nothing to be excited about once again. And he’s never going to be able to develop since we’ll leave him stranded on an island for 7 seconds against WR’s because he haven’t had a pass attack in decades. So you can continue to try to convince yourselves that these players were worth giving the Jets their franchise QB over. But deep down I don’t think you can be that dense.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Sep 30, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry bud, I’ll take the significant upgrade at C, DE, and SS with good added depth to RB and CB- each with upside- over a rookie QB any day. I loved the trade at the time, I think its good now, and I think it will turn out very good in the future.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
where are the significant upgrades? Barton and Bowens have NO sacks, Mack isn’t doing anything significant besides screwing up snaps, and I saw Elam get burned and miss some plays last sunday. Significant upgrades my foot:|
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 2, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Mack is a significant upgrade over Fraley. It’s not even close. He had some struggles with the snap, but he has held his own against some of the league’s best DT’s.
At DE (Coleman was in this deal, not Barton or Bowens), Coleman has looked ok, and without him, we have Shaun Smith and/or Luis Leonard playing a big chunk of snaps. Instead, we get Williams to move to the bench to spell Robaire and Coleman. Much better situation on the D-Line. Again, if you can’t see the upgrade there, you aren’t paying attention.
Elam hasn’t been perfect, but he has made more plays in 3 weeks than Mike Adams and Nick Sorensen have made in their combined careers.
You can’t show how mack has been a significance upgrade. The line is still performing poorly so calling Mack a “significant upgrade” is you not being able to admit to the reality of the situation.
With Coleman, he has 12 tackles in 3 games. And once again the D line is performing like crap. So regardless of the depth and bench players, how is a crappy DL playing better than our old DL? Are you ready to admit you’re wrong? You’re too busy looking at names rather than Stats and performances. You should be a Cowboy fan.
And one again Elam has missed as many plays as Mike Adams and Sorensen and hasn’t done anything to aid in success. A lot of tackles doesn’t mean much for a DB other than the ball somehow makes it to the secondary. a lot
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 2, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
With Coleman, he has 12 tackles in 3 games. And once again the D line is performing like crap.
You must have no idea how a 3-4 lineman should play. 12 tackles in 3 games isn’t bad. Actually it is decent.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 2, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
At that rate he would get 64 tackles, which is pretty good.
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 2, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow.
Fraley was old and worn down last year. He got dominated by the big NTs of our division. Mack has played really well. There aren’t a lot of stats available for centers- maybe you missed the games the last two seasons, cause the upgrade at that position is pretty clear.
Re- Coleman, like Bernie said, 12 tackles in 3 games from a 3-4 lineman is pretty solid. And again, the line looks revitalized compared to last year. They have worn down, but that means we need more depth, not less.
Again, maybe you haven’t been able to catch any of the games this year, but you are wrong on Elam. Elam has played in the box and supporting the run and pass rush a lot of the time. His tackles aren’t coming 30 yards down field. And regardless of where they come from, you still need to be able to make the tackle, something that Adams and Sorensen have struggled with in the past.
I think you really underestimate these pieces. To say nothing of Davis and Francies. But your mistake is really trying to evaluate the trade based on this season (all of three games). This was a trade that netted us 6 players, 3 of them draft picks. All six will be part of the Browns for more than this year, some for several years down the line. The Jets got a draft pick who also can’t fairly be judged.
Also, the Cowboys suck.
Wow. You really seem to dislike Mack. Just because the line hasn’t as a unit been awesome doesn’t mean he’s a bad player. I mean, our offense stinks but I wouldn’t say that means we should cut Edwards. Bad snaps aside, which are a clear point of failure, the consensus seems to be that he’s done quite well as a rookie against some very tough opponents….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 2, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
So you can continue to try to convince yourselves that these players were worth giving the Jets their franchise QB over.
Cap hit + possible good QB on roster + roster depth = no freaking reason to draft Sanchez.
I have never seen so many people jump all over a dudes jock after three games in quite sometime. Did’t Vince Young look pretty good after 3 weeks?
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I could honestly care less about sanchez and I didn’t want to draft him. But I’m more upset about giving the Jets exactly what they needed for a couple of rental players
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 2, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
If a move benefits the Browns (like trading down did), I don’t care if it helps another team. The Browns need to make the best move possible for them.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 2, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
And to be honest with you I hope we trade down next year also.
Me too. We need players, and lots of them.
by e.c. matter on Sep 30, 2009 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
As long as we dont turn down Eric Berry
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Ndamukong Suh is also very impressive.
I am becoming very interested in Fresno State’s starting running back. I think he would be an option in the second and could be an every down back.
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I love Eric Berry. But if the Browns get offered a fatty package for the pick, they better take it.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
The last safety drafted in the top 4 was Eric Turner in 1991 (by the Browns, of course). The only other safeties picked in the top 10 since ‘91 were Roy Williams, Sean Taylor, Michael Huff, Donte Whitner, and LeRon Landry. The NFL website draft history only goes back to ’91 I’m not sure about before that, but it’s obvious that drafting a safety that high is very rare. That doesn’t mean Eric Berry isn’t worth it, of course.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 1, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Surprising that all of those safeties have been at least solid players. I would think someone would have really really busted.
Yes Huff is a bust. He has played well this year, but it was rumored that he was getting cut/benched before the season started.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
So he’s a bust, but not to the extent where he isn’t in the league anymore? I guess that was what I was trying to mean by “really, really busted”
if Huff didn’t start off strong this season he would have been in the free agency by now. Sad part is I wanted the Browns to snatch him up
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 2, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you. Your talking Ryan Leaf busted.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 2, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice to see someone sticking up for Mack. Those bad snaps were painful, but otherwise as a rookie, it seems to me that he’s done pretty well. And he’s still learning.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you really judging rookies after three games??
Maybe he didn’t like Sanchez, or he didn’t want to pay him the big bucks that a high pick demands, or that he thought Quinn might be his guy and he wanted to find out.
Either way, it’s much too early to start evaluating the draft. You know that.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that I’m jumping the gun on this, but it seems likely that the Browns are going to regret not taking Sanchez and instead trading for Barton, Ratliff, Elam, and Mack.
I was a Quinn supporter but he didn’t get it done.
10 quarters. If you think that is long enough, check out Drew Brees stats.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t about stats. Quinn has shown a decided inability to make the throws or make any sort of progressing. He’s actually getting worse the more he plays, that’s the issue.
How much of that can be that he played 3 very good defenses. Granted it is 3 games, and one of those was against the Browns, but those teams all rank in the top 7 of the NFL.
Not saying the guy didn’t suck, just we needed to see him for longer.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with that to an extent, but there should have been some progression there. He’s looked worse with each passing game. Something should have clicked for him and made some sort of positive impact. Besides, each of those teams may rank highly because they played us. It’s early enough in the season for some stats to be skewed.
I defended Mangini in a sense about wittholding the starter until last second before week 1, but in retrospect, it was really stupid.
i agree with you. i wasn’t convinced it was a bad move when he delayed, but as it turns out it was a horrible example of mismanagement at the most important position on the football field. error, mangini.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t feel good about this.
In fact, I’m shocked. 3 INTs in one half. Unbelievable. This is a new low. Wow.
We were down 20 points and facing possible the best defense this season. I’m not trying to make excuses, I’m just saying he simply entered the game at a point where a QB like D.A. (one capable of taking shots down field) is a lot more likely to throw those picks.
There’s no reason to be shocked either. D.A. showed that he can move the ball and get first downs, something Quinn was struggling to do (not the only thing). Once Mangini figured out the QB that’s actually capable, you’d think that he’s hoping the decision making gets better, because that is a lot easier to improve on than ability.
Do I think he will improve? Not really, no. Though, I still feel that Quinn is in no way the answer, but I’ve thought this since we’ve drafted him, I guess now I just have more evidence to prove my assumption true. I feel like I’m repeating myself, but: We have two QBs, who’d be nice back-ups in the NFL.
I totally agree with your conclusion.
But I don’t think DA really moved the ball down the field so well. And even if he did, 3 INTs in a half is terrible. Awful. In any situation totally and completely unacceptable. It, in itself is grounds for a benching. Especially a coach who purportedly preaches protecting the ball. Quinn may stink, but the sample is so small and his problems seem more fixable (getting comfortable in the offense, against NFL defenses) than Anderson, who has regressed over two years and was terribly inaccurate even when he had a decent year.
Anyway, I came to the conclusion that the ‘10 QB was not on our roster when it took Mangini so long to name a starter in the preseason. If Quinn couldn’t separate himself decisively and clearly, it is obvious to me, he was having a terrible camp.
Anderson is the answer!!!
This is what all you panty waists were saying a couple years ago, and he came in and lit Cincinnati up!!!!! And you were the same band wagon jumpers who quickly jumped on after that!!! Brady Quinn is not our future!! He is not a winner, he cant throw the ball, and he is scared to death!!!!
He Did show some “touch” on the dink to that Ravens LB….ack!
by Red-Right-88 on Sep 30, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Really. Everyone knows it is Pansy Waists. Sheesh.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Can Ratliff be in the Mix?
A Mangenius favorite? Could Anderson struggle against the bungles and could we see Mangini’s boy Ratliff?
Heck after Sunday….why not? Wonder what Todd Philcox is doin….ack!
Hell no
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Sep 30, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
We’ll see him in the second half on Sunday.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
grossi said on his podcast that he’s been told multiple times that brett ratliff was brought here to have a chance at starting for the browns at some point this year (i know…consider the source)
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
High Hopes Down the Crapper
3 games into the season and it’s time to start from scratch. Kinda reminds me of last year— only worse.
I saw them in Denver. “Flat” is the word that comes to mind.
Quinn is not a captain. He is not a leader— or even a potential leader for the team. At least Anderson has his teammates’ respect. That’s a good place to start.
DP
the punt unit should cheer up, they’ll never see the field as long as Anderson throws picks.
by Uriah33 on Sep 30, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Defense
No but with DA starting maybe they will be able to rest a little!!!!
by cfields on Sep 30, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Anderson has my full support, hopefully we can salvage some wins. Let’s start in Cincy.
Also, no more knee jerk benchings.
Yeah, if he pulls Anderson in the middle of week 5 or something I think I’ll snap. Unless he puts up multiple Jake Dellomne 5 pick days he better be in there for the rest of the year.
I’d rather see them mix and match. Anderson one week, Quinn the next. Or even go to a two quarterback system.
That would indicate to me that the coaching staff thinks that neither player is the solution.
That would indicate to me that the coaching staff thinks that neither player is the solution.
I would say that the coaching staffs complete mismangement of this QB situation should show you that already.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
That seems like a rough place to start this season. (I’m still shocked by Cincy’s start thus far.) Odom is looking like a sack machine, and I don’t think our line will handle that very well.
Odom has to go against Joe Thomas. I am willing to wager a decent amount of money that Odom will be unable to beat Joe for one.
You know if gambling was legal…
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, sign me up. DA’s the guy, we get behind him. (Whatever we might think about the decision.)
Give the gunslinger the ammo box and let’s see how many targets he can hit!
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I am a diehard browns fan and i thought starting quinn wasnt going to work out. and now after seeing what he has done this year has just proven a point that quinn just isnt the quarterback that the browns hoped he would be when they drafted him. he doesnt have the arm strength or hasnt shown the leadership ability that everyone raved about. he looks terrible. i get tired of watching the browns offense play with quinn when you watch him drop back to pass you know where the ball is going. its going to be checked down to the running back in the flats or a running back over the middle. he doesnt have the arm strength and is afraid to make plays. ultimately i think the decision to start anderson is the right move he might have throw 3 ints in the 2nd half against the ravens but we were down 20-0. he was at least trying to get us back in the game by making plays all quinn does is dump the ball down for 3 and outs and its a waste id rather see anderson try to make plays than quinn throw 2 and 3 yard completions how exciting is that. anderson is a gambler and quinn isnt. i dont understand how all these quinn backers think he still deserves a chance after watching him throw ints and fumble and not throw the ball down the field. the browns offense isnt exciting with him because he cant throw more than 10 yards downfield and the browns offense needs a qb that can do that. we should have traded quinn in the offseason when we could have gotten a first for him but its too late now bc we will never get that again. anderson gives us the best chance to win now and in the future unless we get someone.
hmmmm
Some of the play calling Quinn has been subject to has been shaky, 1 and 10 at the 48 and we do a QB sneak? ahhhhhhhhh!
by Red-Right-88 on Sep 30, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
QB sneak
The sneak was run to try and catch Baltimore with 12 men on the field but Quinn was too slow and they got the 12th man off before he snapped the ball. This was on Quinn
by reunite the dales on Oct 1, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Paragraph breaks are your friends.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont understand how all these quinn backers think he still deserves a chance after watching him throw ints and fumble and not throw the ball down the field.
Quinn backers? I think most of the people on this board are Browns backers, no matter their opinion on the quarterback situation.
You really think so? Say it ain’t so, BQiB / TRSS / AotW! :)
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
i was just making a guess since his user name is “bradyquinnisbeast”. i don’t think anyone on here is more of a quinn backer, though.
That would be Alias of the Week, of course. :)
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I am a quinn backer, in that I want him to play more, i just am sooooooooo frustrated as to why he just refuses to throw it more than 10 yards. just burns me up.
i still don’t like the decision. crennel couldn’t make a decision on the field, and mangini can’t make a QB decision…he just doesn’t get it.
he had the word ‘focus’ painted on the field, but he has done more to ‘distract’ than anyone.
DA should have started the season anyways. He’s the guy.
I know I’ve said this before, but DA was the scapegoat for last year’s lousey team.
The man isn’t scared to throw the ball and he’ll start racking up the 250+ yard games.
0-16 is not in the picture anymore.
GO BROWNS!
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
You’re right. In his entire career, I don’t think anyone has EVER accuse DA of being afraid to throw the ball.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 3, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Brady Quinn is the Andy Marte of the Browns.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not well, not well at all. Although maybe Brady will be like Andy and finally become an average at best player after constant trips to the minor leagues and a fun detour through waiver land!
"Quote goes here."
More to the point, maybe Quinn will become a more accomplished player when he’s given a fair chance to develop into one.
That makes it seem like Andy Marte was somehow not given many many fair chances to prove himself. I do agree that Brady still can grow and become better, but good gravy Andy Marte was terrible. I remember at one point last year, CC had more RBIs than him. That is just hilariously sad.
"Quote goes here."
He’s been brought up to the majors many times since he’s been here for decent periods of time, and when we ran out of I forget what you call them, AAA options?, the number of times you can send a guy back down without going through waivers, we went ahead and took our chances and no one bothered to pick him up. I mean, that has to say something. And now that he’s been up most recently, he’s finally not completely terrible. Not even average, just not horrible.
"Quote goes here."
I’m sorry, but you aren’t even close to being right.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Care to elaborate? At all? I’m not trying to be a dick, but just saying I’m wrong isn’t really adding a whole lot to the discourse here.
"Quote goes here."
Just to make a very simplistic argument, and there’ are much better ones in the LGT archives:
Andy Marte is 25 years old. When Travis Hafner was 25 years old, he was batting .242 with one home run in his first cup of coffee with the Texas Rangers. When Hafner was 26, he hit .254 with the Indians. The year Pronk turned 27, we were pretty glad that the Rangers got rid of him.
Andy was exposed to the majors early and never given a consistent string of at-bats. Even in lost seasons, we never let him play every day. He’s still at an age where some prospects have never touched the majors, and he’s destroyed minor league pitching several times in his career. Giving up on him could be a big mistake.
I think this situation is way more complicated than just which quarterback is “the guy.”
I think Daboll is calling plays for Quinn that are conservative, thinking he’s playing to quinn’s strength, but instead making our offense predictable. I agree that Quinn is not taking shots down the field because he’s more comfortable checking down but that comes with time and adjusting to the speed of the game downfield. When Anderson got in I think the playcalling was loosened up, playing to his strengths. The problem is that nobody is confused about the strengths of either quarterback. Quinn is in, they bring the safeties up. Anderson is in, they drop back in coverage and dare us to run. I think there is joint responsibility between the QB and the coaching staff. The predictability predictability of our offensive set with either quarterback and their individual playing flaws in that system is what is killing our offense. (i’m willing to be shown wrong about the playcalling changing from QB to QB)
Quinn getting pulled early this year was a bummer for several reasons.
-Mangini said he was going to stick with a quarterback. He’s just shown the QBs that they’re on a short leash and can’t make many mistakes without being benched.
-He’s also shown the team that he has zero confidence in Quinn, so if Anderson continues to throw the ball to the other team game after agonizing game, it will be difficult to put Quinn back in and have the team support it.
-Anderson’s 2007 season came when he had a strong group of receivers who were tall and could catch almost anything. Even if Braylon is back to his old form, we are really gonna miss winslow and jurevicius catching erratically thrown anderson balls.
In short, neither quarterback is “the guy.” But the coaching staff is making it difficult for either to play to their potential by calling predictable schemes. No wonder the vikings weren’t worried about who would start. It only goes one of two ways. Let’s hope that the coaches start giving these guys schemes that work and an intelligent/deceiving way of mixing the offense up for either of them. I want wins.
GO BROWNS
by the_fox_and_the_browns on Sep 30, 2009 2:57 PM EDT reply actions
Long throw in Denver
Didnt Quinn make a 50 yard throw in Denver that looked effortless, our receiver couldnt catch up to it? I thought at that moment, well there ya go, thats all ya need now get some accuracy….maybe I am wrong.
Dawgs dont do well with shortleashes…
by Red-Right-88 on Sep 30, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
thats true. I was just looking at the regular season games. I just wanted to see him get some calls where he could air it out in the regular season. So sad
by the_fox_and_the_browns on Sep 30, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
you are not wrong….I saw the same thing…and the Ravens saw it coming too….the corners were sitting on the routes when Quinn was in…could have set up a barcolounger 7 yards deep in the flats….and then they just spread four 30 yards downfield when DA was in….the only two that didn’t see this was the OC (who was too busy looking for his next QB sneak opportunity) and our ballboy….
It’s hard to judge the playcalling. Is Daboll calling conservative plays, or is he calling longer plays and Brady is just not throwing the ball out there? Is he calling more plays downfield for DA, or is DA just willing to wing it at whichever receiver is farthest downfield?
It’s hard for laypeople to judge. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just saying I don’t know.
I suppose the excitement of Anderson moving the ball a bit – before he throws an interception – will make at least a portion of the cost of my Sunday Ticket worthwhile.
But if neither of these guys are the answer, then there’s no reason to expect to see either on the roster next year unless one of them is willing to restructure his contract to reflect a backup position.
We need to ask,,,Just what exactly are we trying to accomplish here this season? I think we all agree our chances of any sort of dramatic turnaround are slim to none…and the most we can hope for with Anderson is maybe, MAYBE (and it certainly isn’t a given by ANY means) another few wins here and there down the road.
I think this is a bad, BAD decision…Quinn should be starting for the majority of the season to get a true evaluation…I think that would be FAR more beneficial than another meaningless win in a season that for all intensive purposes is already lost. I don’t have a problem with Quinn being on a short leash, hell he’s not a kid, played D I college ball and has had a few years in the NFL under his belt. The knowledge that if you don’t perform well will get you benched isn’t exactly a novel idea in the NFL.
SO what would YOU rather do with the remainder of the season?
If Quinn remains a complete failure, well then we accomplish two goals…we get a higher draft pick in a draft full of QB’s, and we can finally say we know what we have here.
This decision just seems to indicate the ship is drifting aimlessly, and taking on water fast.
Agree with most of this. Though I don’t have as harsh a conclusion.
What is the contract situation with DA?
He signed a three-year contract worth a maximum of $26 million, but with no less than $24 million in February of 2008. The actual guaranteed money is $13.5 million, but the "practical’’ guarantee is $14.5 million.
by johnnyphoenix on Sep 30, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, and similar to what I’ve said before, but what are you going to do? DA starts, so we hope we get the best he has to offer, to beat the Bengals and get the team’s legs back under it again….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
just a pet peeve…there’s no such thing as an “intensive purpose”. it’s “all intents and purposes”.
/end grammar nerd
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
MY purposes are all intensive, though.
by johnnyphoenix on Oct 3, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Why is every Browns fan so against Anderson?
He was a Pro Bowler just 2 years ago and he had a concussion last year. They benched him after he finally seemed recovered and I didn’t really get that. Why don’t people give him a pass for the first few games last year?
I have to agree…Anderson is not a bad quarterback and is capable of putting up some big numbers and making some big plays. With that comes some questionable throws but those can be managed if the right coach can work with him to understand when to take those big chances and when to just throw the ball away.
by brownsrock99 on Sep 30, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
well, that’s a lot easier said than done, isn’t it? Basically you’re saying “he would be a good quarterback if only he made only the good throws and could be coached into not making bad ones.” What is actually in question is his ability to make that judgment – something he has never shown, in college or the pros. His completion percentage in college was somewhere in the mid-50s: not a good sign for the NFL, because it’s rare to see a dramatic improvement going from college to the pros, as you would expect. I would like to see DA develop into a consistent QB, but I certainly haven’t seen anything that would lead me to expect it. Remember that even in 2007 he was a poor quarterback over the last 4 games of the season. His numbers overwhelmingly came earlier in the season.
he was actually a below-average qb for more like 6-7 games to end ’07, w/ the last 4 being outright poor. the guy really has only played about 8 good to very good games
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
part of the question seems to be, how can a guy who we shouldn’t be “against” lose his position to a guy who played as miserable of 10 quarters as we all witnessed?
How is HE supposed to do better if he still lost to brady? I am hardpressed to trust much of an improvement (given esp his return in the 2nd half last week with 3 INTs!)
You’re assuming that Mangini’s original decision to start Quinn was the right one in the first place. Anderson is a play maker and putting him in gives the offense a better chance to score. It opens up the field and defenses have to be more aware of the long ball…they can’t crowd the line of scrimmage and jump all over the run or the 3 to 5 yard dump passes that Quinn looks for. Anderson will improve the offensive output…Edwards will become more of a factor as well.
by brownsrock99 on Sep 30, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
and if Mangini didn’t make the first right decision, how am I supposed to assume that this is the right decision?
what i dont get is how suddenly a miraculous shift will occur over time for Anderson, but giving Quinn more time for improvement is flawed logic
It's not a miraculous shift
Just hoping for a return to form, really.
by Donald Driver on Sep 30, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If Anderson was such a “playmaker”, how come he spent the first half of last year not making plays?
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Is anyone else agreeing with this ‘DA had brain damage last year’ line of argument? Just curious, really….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure played like it.
Thank you, I will be here all week.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha. That was a nice straight line, wasn’t it?
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah he got it in the Preseason against the Giants
If you look at his first few games vs. his next few there was a pretty big difference. Trent Edwards wasn’t the same after his concussion last year either.
by Donald Driver on Sep 30, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
That explains his 66.5 QB rating for the entire season – he had a concussion in pre-season and never got over it.
Riiiiiight.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
First, a lot of people don’t buy the Pro Bowl season he had. It was against a soft schedule and he had everything around him going perfectly: solid line, Edwards’ career year, Winslow and Jurevicious were healthy all year, Lewis had a solid year. Even then, he had too many INT’s, a low completion percentage, and was only really a “pro bowler” as an alternate because nobody else had a good year. He also fell apart down the stretch and he ruined playoff chances against a bad Cincinnati team.
Last year, concussion or no, he looked very bad throughout. By his last game, he looked uninterested. It was bad. He seems to be successful only when EVERYTHING else around him is going perfectly and he crumbles with any adversity. That is not a successful QB.
But mostly, he is really inaccurate and throws too many pics.
hell…second half breakdowns aside, I don’t think our defense plays THAT badly. Generally, we’re IN the game until the 3rd or 4th quarter, but our QB’s can’t move the sticks and continually put the D in tough positions with turnovers.
by johnnyphoenix on Sep 30, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Our defense just got worn down by AD in week 1.
Our defense quit in the second half in week 2.
Our defense team quit at kickoff in week 3.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, you’re right. The whole defense has been showing no growth and has actually been regressing. I say bench ’em!
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 3, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s just so frustrating…he has SO much potential, and yet his biggest flaw is absolutely the worst habit a QB can have.
He FORCES the ball into coverage, and at times we all seen him throw a ball RIGHT into the chest of defenders. Turnovers are just ABSOLUTE killers, for all teams, but especially for a team which lacks talent and/or the ability to score points.
by johnnyphoenix on Sep 30, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Not only does he force balls into coverage, his accuracy is pretty erratic. The trio of Edwards (big catching radius, makes difficult catches), Winslow (huge catching radius, great hands) and Jurevicious (huge catching radius and great hands) made that lack of Drew Breesesque accuracy fine and dandy.
Totally agree with this. His receiver corps made him look great. It’s all about support staff.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 1, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
If that’s true, “It’s all about the support staff”, then is it also true that DA looked so badly last year because of all Edwards’ drops, Winslow’s Passing Interferences, and Steptoe’s general existence?
Because of Steptoe being small vs the huge Joe J, yes. Because our line did not play as well, yes. Because Lewis wasn’t as good, yes. But also because teams figured him out and were able to capitalize on his erratic arm, and also because he threw passes 5+ yards away from where they should have been. Edwards dropped a lot of balls in 07, too. I think he was 2nd in the league in drops in 07.
Both seasons DA displayed some inaccuracy, but he was getting big rewards to go with those risks in 07, and he was trying to be a different QB in 08. He also simply threw a better ball in 07.
This is all true. I’m just saying, DA bashers give him no credit for his successes and all the blame for his failures. He’s certainly had his share of both; let’s just be fair about it.
DA bashers who have never given him credit for a good throw or who would blame him for holding on to the ball too long while Kevin Schaffer was getting run over en route to a sack are probably the kinds of people you will find at cleveland.com.
Hopefully you won’t find that at all here.
Personally, I really don’t think DA is the guy for the job, but the man quarterbacked us to our best season since returning to the league. I have to give him credit for that. In 07, he was able to balance risk with reward enough that we almost made the playoffs. In 08 he didn’t do as good of a job at balancing those two very important things. His line and WRs didn’t give him any additional help, but he still didn’t play as well.
Whatever happens this year, I just hope we find out if either of these guys is “the guy”.
As always, there’s a lot going on across the team that has an impact on QB play. And obviously, there’s Edwards and his drops. (Props to him for not showing that problem much this year.)
I do think it’s interesting how (within reason) the right receiver corps can correct for lack of accuracy in a QB, thus making him look much much better. Without a receiving corps with the same compensating strengths (or when a little off becomes 5+ yards off like rufio said) DA’s weaknesses might come to the fore again with a vengeance.
It’s not just a question of general receiver competence, but also a question of those exact receivers matching with this exact QB to potentially create a greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts equation. We need our new receivers to get more playing time to see if they can develop these kinds of equations, making something special in the aggregate….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 1, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That rapport between WR and QB is also probably developed in training camp and over multiple years of playing together. Thats one reason continuity is important not only in terms of the offensive playbook, but also who the starting QB is. In hindsight, maybe Mangini should have picked someone earlier.
DA and Braylon did look like they had that kind of chemistry in 07, though, when DA wasn’t the starter in camp. So maybe they just have a good intuitive feel for each other.
Either way, I’d love to get a serious look at the young kids sometime soon.
I sinned against the language by using the phrase ‘all about’, certainly. (I should take better lessons from Roger Dorn here.) As covered above, there are a lot of moving parts in a team, and there’s more than one cause for last year’s breakdowns….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 1, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Brady Quinn should look for a U-Haul dealership.
I am a Quinn guy, I still think he did not get a fair deal. 10 quarters this year against teams that are 9-0.
His career is essentially over in Cleveland, move him get a 4th rounder and then draft another QB next year. The cycle of life continues.
even if DA sucks, i don’t think that they can (or will) go back to quinn again. if i was him, i’d want to be traded. i don’t think he got a fair deal, either. but, we’re not the coaches so sadly we can’t do anything about it :-/
so the question is… how are they going to approach this at the end of the season? most of us agree that DA isn’t a long-term answer. as dayton dogg said above, he’s inaccurate and throws too many picks. i think the coaches realize it as well.
here’s what i think will happen: first, quinn will be traded for a 4th round pick. i’m sure there’s a team out there who will think that with some grooming and the right personnel, he can be a good starting qb. or, at least a good backup. previous posts i have said “bradford or mccoy!” but i don’t think this will happen. the browns have so many needs, that i doubt they will spend their #1 pick on a qb. maybe eric berry or a good OT. then, maybe in the 2nd or early 3rd round the browns will draft a qb like… idk, zac robinson. (i’m just naming someone who comes to mind.) idk if he would learn from DA (if he’s still on the team, that is) or start, though. i don’t know if we’d want him to learn from DA though, lol.
that’s just a thought of mine. i doubt most, if any, of it will happen, but it could. because i highly doubt that this whole qb situation will be completely settled by the end of the season. although i hope i’m wrong.
Funny, I just posted the exact opposite down thread: Quinn is not done in Cleveland. First, he is the #2 QB to DA. Mangini sees Andreson throw a couple more frustrating, inexplicable pics, he could pull him and go back to Quinn. Anderson can get hurt, and Quinn is back in. Mangnini could give up the season and decide that Quinn should play.
Quinn will get more opportunities. Deserved, or not.
really, i think it could go either way.
“Mangini sees Anderson throw a couple more frustrating, inexplicable pics, he could pull him and go back to Quinn.”
i don’t think that mangini would do that. he just benched quinn after 10 quarters. now i know that looks bad, but it’d look even worse if he put DA in and benched him after 5 games in favor of quinn. then again, i’m not mangini so idk what he’s thinking.
you’re right on the idea that DA could get hurt, though. i didn’t really think about that. i would like quinn to get more opportunities as well, but i don’t think he’s going to be back on this team after this season. unless, like you said, he gets put back in and really makes a case for himself. i highly doubt mangini’s going to have a DA vs. quinn competition again next offseason.
plus the fact that this qb draft class is really good. i think that if mangini doesn’t 100% think one of these guys can be the qb for more than 1 season, then they draft one.
i highly doubt mangini’s going to have a DA vs. quinn competition again next offseason.
Boy do I hope you’re right on this point!
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I totally think DA could be benched on performance. First, he has shown in the past that he can be so, so, so bad that the coach is forced to make a move. Second, Mangini has shown to have a quick trigger. Third, Mangini may not have given up on Quinn totally, in fact, I’d be surprised if he has. He wants a spark, he needs some offense and he is going with the gunslinger. But just like the Titans aren’t cutting Vince Young and the Cardinals aren’t giving up on Leinert, Quinn is just waiting for the next opportunity.
I do think Quinn’s issues are more correctable than Anderson’s (namely confidence) but Quinn just wasn’t ready. It remains to be seen if he ever will, but I’d be shocked if Quinn doesn’t have more starts as a Cleveland Brown.
On your last point, I think the Browns will find another QB. If they like Bradford or McCoy and have the opportunity, they might draft one of them. But they also may go the FA or trade route.
i think we both have the possibility to be right with our predictions. you have good points in your first paragraph especially, but i wouldn’t be surprised if quinn was traded. i’m pretty sure that either he or anderson will not be on the roster next year, though.
i’m not completely ruling out bradford or mccoy, but idk if they would want to spend another 1st rounder on a qb, rather than (like i said above) something the browns are in desperate need of. (ok they will be in need of a qb, too but i think you know what i mean.) especially when this qb class is so deep. i think they could find a qb with good potential (ex. i used above— zac robinson) in later rounds of the draft. it may even be better to get a qb who isn’t so over-hyped, but still has solid potential.
let’s just not draft jimmy clausen, like many mocks are predicting lately… or worse… tebow (aka the second coming of christ, according to the guys on espn)!
i just think that with the 1st round pick, the browns should go with safety (if eric berry’s available), OT, or maybe running back (but that’s probably be better in the 2nd round).
and i apologize for talking about the draft already! typical browns fan, here haha.
I understand the desire to talk about the draft, and its not that I don’t agree with some of your draft thoughts.
I just refuse to get too deep into draft discussions. Too much can happen in both the College year and the NFL for me to get into the draft. Heck, the injuries to Michael Floyd, Stefan Johsnon, Tebow, Bradford already have big impact on what draft boards would look like. There are just too many of different things that could happen from now until the draft.
No RB in the first, please. Especially not where we will be drafting. Eric Berry, Gerald McCoy, Suh, Potentially Mays, or some sort of LB would be fine with me.
If Jonathan Dwyer runs a 4.28, I’d consider it though. Just based on what I have seen there isn’t a back who is that type of LT/AP stud who would warrant a draft pick in the top 10 (where we’d be drafting if the season was over now).
Its not that I am against drafting a back in the 1st altogether, that RB just has to be really, really worth it.
This. There are just too many talented backs in college to take one in the first, let alone where we will pick.
That being said, I think that Dwyer is a beast.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 2, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep an eye on Ryan Matthews. He has good size (220) and has good burst and lateral quickness, but is aslo a tough runner that can break tackles and can drag defenders. He keeps his pads low and has good hands too.
I think he can be an everydown back.
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 2, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I am still suprised that he hasn;t seen the field yet this year.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Quinn is not done in Cleveland
I go the other way. I think that Mangini has already lost the locker room, but if he went back to Quinn, unless it is for injury, the entire situation looks like he has no idea.
May be pretty close to happening already.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I was there when I first heard the news, but it is starting to make a little sense to me. He wanted Quinn to start and to work out. But he has looked worse than anyone expected. He looks tentative and shaky. He is holding the ball to long and is indecisive. He simply doesn’t look ready. Even if this is all about Quinn and his growth, the best thing might just be to sit him down for a couple games.
The other side of it, Mangini is a little desperate to get something out of his offense and maybe to win a game. Anderson could give him a little lightening in a bottle. Or at least go down swinging. The running game is probbaly a little worsethan he thought, plus the RBs can’t stay healthy.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
you know, this may be the thing that quinn needed. he’s now suffered the worst you can suffer in sports…he was benched. maybe he’s able to let his hair down and actually play football if/when he gets another shot. he seemed SO tentative in his 2.5 games so far.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the best we can hope for. I originally thought this would inevitably lead to his exodus from the Browns, but now I’m not so sure. Maybe it’s possible for him to follow a sort of Asdrubel Cabrera route: take a step back, make the necessary correction, then return to be a productive player. Or maybe I’m delusional.
I am looking at it from the coaching staff side.
How does Mangini look anything other than dumb as hell, if he puts Brady back in after 2 games? If anything, Ratliff will get a shot before Quinn. If he goes back to Quinn outside of an injury, it will look like he has NO clue what is going on.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not so sure. First, I don’t think Mangini cares if he LOOKS LIKE he has no clue. More importantly, don’t you think there is at least a chance that a couple games on the sidelines would be good for Quinn? The game looked like it was going to fast for him and he wasn’t comfortable in the offense or against the defensive schemes. A step back for two weeks makes a lot of sense in that situation, to me.
I’m not sure this is what is going on here, but it makes as much sense as anything else.
Yes it may do Quinn some good, but Mangini has made it impossible to go back to Quinn.
If after game 6 we are 0-6, Mangini can’t go back to Quinn. If he did, then the media, fans, are most importantly the players would lose what little belief they had in Mangini.
They only way Quinn gets back in is injury to DA or after DA AND Ratliff have bombed out also.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Why? Why is it so hard to see Quinn getting a couple weeks off and then coming back in? Why would anyone, that hadn’t given up on Mangini already, think badly of him if Quinn came back in a couple weeks?? Especially the players. Quinn was the starter, he wasn’t ready. Maybe he will be ready in a couple weeks.
Also, DA has shown time and time again that he can play himself out of any job and out of anyone’s favor. Is it that hard to see DA throwing 8 picks in 3 games and getting benched in favor of Quinn??
I’m just not seeing this as meaning all that much for Quinn’s or Mangini’s long term future. Quinn and the offense was really bad through 2.5 games. IS a benching for a game and half that shocking or devastating? To say that he is done with Mangini or Mangini is done if he goes back to Quinn just doesn’t make sense to me.
I guess I look at it this way.
Mangini had a full training camp and preseason to make a choice. After a laughable attempt to keep things under wraps he chose Quinn. He told the press that this was not a week-to-week thing. He has now turned it into that.
He had a competition. He named a winner. He has now had a knee jerk reaction and changed his mind. If he goes back, it looks like the guy has no idea what he is doing. I truely think that Mangini will go to Ratliff before he goes back to Quinn.
Either way I believe that Mangini has no idea how to handle team situations. Look at how many situations, going back to the Jets, that Mangini has just cluster effed.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know that it was a knee-jerk reaction. 10 quarters is not enough to evaluate the career of a young QB, and I don’t think that is what Mangini is doing. But 10 quarters is enough to see that the QB is not comfortable on the field or in the offense. We all jumped on Romeo for not being able to pull the trigger before the season was lost. Mangini isn’t repeating that mistake.
Again, you may think Mangini doesn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. But get over it, he has that benefit for the rest of the season. Try to think of rational reasons he would have handled the situation the way he has- I don’t think its too hard.
Through preseason- DA looks like a backup. Quinn shows some potential. Neither looks great. Get as much info as possible- decide to go with Quinn.
2.5 games later of almost no production and erratic play from the QB, let the youngster take a seat. Send him a message and/or let him get some perspective from the sidelines. Also, let the backup try to move the ball down the field.
Let that go for a 1-4 games. If the backup plays like crap or the young guy seems ready make the switch back to the guy with potential.
I don’t think that is to hard to fathom. And it makes a lot more sense to me than to say that Magnini is inept or bad at coaching.
by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 1, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think that is to hard to fathom. And it makes a lot more sense to me than to say that Magnini is inept or bad at coaching.
What in all honesty makes you think he is a good coach? What has he handled the proper way since he got here? Go back to NY. What did he do there that was so great? He pissed off veterans, fined the crap out of players, and the team, media, and fans were estatic to be rid of the guy.
And in the case of saving a lost season, this season is already lost. There is no way, NO WAY, this team can make the playoffs. This season should be about evauluation. What players on this roster are woth keeping next year?
We can agree to disagree on this one. Truthfully you have raised some good points, just not enough to sway me.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions
We’ll agree to disagree.
But I never said he was a good coach. I haven’t decided what I think of him, and I know I’m going to withhold my judgment AT LEAST until the end of this season, and probably until this time next season.
What I did say is I won’t accept that he is some inept or terrible coach. He managed about a .500 record in New York in three years- with a team that kinda sucked when he got there and he had to deal with Favre (which I don’t think was his choice) in his last year. I just don’t think he is that extremely terrible that I’m going to refuse to give him any leeway in his ability to make rational decisions. Also, I think the the stories of him pissing off players is overblown and not very relevant.
I also think this season is pretty much gone. But I do appreciate the effort to not totally give up after 3 weeks and to win some games along the way. There will be plenty games after October to do full on evaluation. And that’s why I think Quinn will likely play again this year.
Good dialogue though. My position on this situation and Mangini has been developing a lot thorugh the last couple days and I’ve enjoyed talking it out with some level-headed and informed fans.
by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 1, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Good dialogue though. My position on this situation and Mangini has been developing a lot thorugh the last couple days and I’ve enjoyed talking it out with some level-headed and informed fans.
Rec.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Are any of the Browns’ players Samoan? I know we’ve had former players (Sangapolotele(sp?) comes immediately to mind).
The Bengals blog is reporting that one Bengals player lost four members of his family in the earthquake/tsunami and Maualuga hasn’t been able to contact his younger brother.
Those werethe only players I could think of, but I think they’re both Hawaiian.
by e.c. matter on Sep 30, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It's the coaching...it is always the coaching...
I don’t know where to start….
I guess when you commit to a quarterback and then only give him 10 quarters to prove he is top flight…you are, as a head coach, setting yourself up for disaster….
If I was the head coach I would have played both BQ and DA in the final preseason against da Bears..starting DA as the veteren and then traded series back and forth with BQ for the entire game. Based on those performances I would have announced the next day who was starting for the Vikes game….Then barring injury…they woulda been my starter for at least the first half of the season…
The fact is…the game is all about potential…and realizing that potential…and as far as potential, both DA and BQ have it….it then becomes an issue of the coaching staff being able to realize that potential
I would have probably started the season with DA, (being the veteren) but w/o the benefit of that fourth preseason game…who knows??? But based on what i saw in the first three I could make the case that BQ was not quite ready for primetime.
Anyone who read my comment in the clueless thread already knows I am calling for Mangini’s ouster….because excepting for three positions we have enough talent to contend in the NFC North this year….but with what Mangini has already done to this team we don’t have a prayer….
Position #1: Receivers: What on earth is Mangini thinking in summarily trading Winslow. I am all for discipline….but he didn’t even get a chance to shape up under the new coach….and why no rumors about making inquiries to bring in Marvin Harrison or Jerry Porter….it’s not like they aren’t available and we don’t need the help….
Position #2: Defensive backs: They may be old but Ty Law and Kelly Herndon could certainly help improve the secondary, and the youngsters could learn alot…
Position #3: OL: last I checked Jon Runyon and Damien MacIntosh are available and either one of them would put instant pressure on St. Clair for the starting role….
But all that aside….we will instead watch the horror of musical quarterbacks as our ball boy spins the tunes….
Mangini was interviewed by and has the full support and respect of Randy Lerner. If Mangini has decided that what pro football is missing is musical qbs every 10 qtrs, then, it has to be right. If Mangini decided that we needed to draft offense despite the fact that he inherited a defense that couldnt stop the run or pass, he had to be right. If Mangini brought aging Jets players to the Browns, then it has to be right. If Mangini decides punting on second down and running qb sneaks on first down will fool the opponents, its right.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again….Lerner needs to sell 51% of the team to Bill Cowher for $1.00 and beg him to save us from the ballboy….
the defense has been much better than the offense.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
What the FUCK?!?!?!?
Why would you not give Quinn a chance?
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 4:58 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Heh. Short, blunt and to the point!
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Quinn
I’m not a Browns fan but BQ fan.I always thought Oakland was the most defunked franchise,but its surely Cleveland.Oakland has the worst QB in the league and still giving him a chance to learn and grow.Quinn has started 5 games in his career and has little to no support around.Bad o-line play,no running game, and he gets benched.
Yep. The Browns got no funk.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes the Browns are approaching Raiders level of buffonery. Russell has played beyond poorly, but they run him out every game. Last year the Raiders ran the ball well, this year I don’t know how they are doing.
Browns running backs: Jamal can’t get to the hole anymore and hurt. Davis was hurt and a rookie who has played like one even by his own admission and Harrison who never can get healthy who actually ran decent last week.
But Quinn is done in Cleveland. I will be shocked if he finds the field. The only way, DA gets hurt.
Oh, common. The Raiders have a head coach that broke an assistant’s jaw. Russell looks like the bad parts of Anderson combined with the bad parts of Quinn. I think the Browns still look like a better organization than the Raiders.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
All of that is true. But that team has played hard for their coach. That’s something I can’t say about this about the Browns.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, this sucks. And now I have an impossible decision to make, in light of the fact that the sooner Mangini is fired, the better (as we will never go anywhere with such a poor evaluator/motivator/strategizer as coach). Thus, the best thing for the Browns is that they lose as much as possible, to get this clown out of here. However, I find it very hard to root against the Browns (despite it being in their interest as a franchise to lose). So…
1) Root for the Browns to lose, thus ensuring Mangini’s firing, thus giving Dorn’s “blind pig” theory a chance for Lerner to get it right.
2) Root for the Browns to win, despite knowing that it is detrimental to the franchise.
I honestly think it might be #1… like when I was rooting for the Indians to be in the bottom 15 last year so their #1 draft pick would be protected from free agency.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
Eh- you root for them to win, but when/if they lose, you aren’t surprised or all that disappointed.
But I dont’ think I’m there with Mangini yet. He has had some success in this league, and I just refuse to give up on him after three games. I am disheartened by the negative stories from just about every angle about him, but it seems more petty than serious.
I hate this move and how the QB situation was handled, but I honestly think it doesn’t matter- Mangini didn’t have a good QB to work with and now he know it.
I just don’t think you know it about Quinn. In fact, I think it’s pretty impossible to “know it” about any QB that has had Quinn’s amount of experience.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
Agreed. But he has seen him in training camp and preseason and Quinn barely inched out Anderson. So, Quinn wasn’t thought of all that highly from his performance going into the year. Also, Quinn isn’t being cast away. He is the backup and I’d be shocked if he doesn’t play again this year.
What is upsetting is that this is a move about week 4 of the 2009 season. I honestly think nothing else went into the decision making process (and he’s pretty much said so, right?). This is wrong because week 4 of the 2009 season is about as meaningless as it gets. What this 100% concern for the present shows me is that more than I ever could have thought, this is Mangini’s team through and through. It’s not about the players, development, consistency, trust or a long term vision. It’s about Mangini, his ridged structure of a team, and everything else are just interchangeable variables to be pulled in and out at random. I’m saying this not b/c I favor Quinn over Anderson (I do), I’m saying it b/c it happened after ten quarters. If DA had won the job, 10 quarters would have been too short for him as well (though I would have been happy, and he’s had 2+ prior years to evaluate).
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
I agree that this move is made for the very short term. He wants to win this week. Is a miraculous playoff run likely? No. It’s possible Mangini is worried about his job, as speculated up thread. Or he is just trying to when the game in front of him, and I can appreciate that.
But Quinn didn’t look comfortable at all and just didn’t seem ready through 10 quarters. And it might be best for his development to take a step back too.
the more I consider why this move was made, the more I kinda get it.
And the vision you describe seems like how the Patriots are run. It also sounds very similar to how Troy Polamalu described the way the Steelers are run (he was interviewed on ESPN and talked about how nobody is irreplaceable, every part is interchangeable, and the concepts, ideals and the team are larger than any one player’s skills- citing Joey Porter leaving). If that’s the model of the two most successful organizations in the league, I don’t mind emulating it.
Not only 4 weeks into the season, 4 weeks into a NEW coaching regime. Do you think St. Louis, NYJets, or any other new coaches are having their most loyal fans wonder if it is better that they lose so they are fired?
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That is what I still don’t understand and jerks me about Mangini. He made look like Quinn only inched out DA. He should of made the decision either way to start DA or Quinn after the 3rd pre-season game and have the team focus on who is leading the team from the QB position.
I don’t think he just made it look like Quinn inched out DA- I think it was honestly that close.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
If you root for them to lose, you will probably enjoy games more : )
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
1) Root for the Browns to lose, thus ensuring Mangini’s firing, thus giving Dorn’s "blind pig" theory a chance for Lerner to get it right.
This. I can’t stand Mangini. We need a coach that isn’t from Baltimore/New England that has a clue of what to do on offense.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Old saying: “Even a blind squirrel eventually finds a nut.”
by e.c. matter on Sep 30, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont want to try another one from New England
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 1, 2009 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think anyone would like that decision if it were made…unless the coach was good and the Browns actually started winning lots of games.
None of the Belichick related coaches have worked for us; not even Belichick.
I would rather have a tough guy like Singletary
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 1, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
we have a tough guy like singletary. i’m completely serious.
our version is just shorter, fatter, whiter, and light a super bowl ring (as a player) and hall of fame bust.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a difference is being tough and being an ass.
And plus Singletary wins.
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 1, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
if you lose, you’re an ass; if you win, you’re tough.
singletary is 7-5, mangini 23-28. hardly dispositive that singletary “wins”.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 2, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Singletary and Mangini have very different personalities, dont try to act like thats not true. Mangini is losing the team, but players seem to listen to Singletary
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 2, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I personally think Singletary handled that situation perfectly.
by Simmsinns on Oct 2, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So do I, but I get the feeling that had that happened on the Browns, it’d be offered as proof positive that Mangini had lost the team.
without question. and maybe that’s mangini’s failing…maybe he needs to have been a HoF linebacker to be able to be the hard ass that he aspires to be. but the philosophies are virtually identical.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 2, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think that Mangini respects his players. I know that may sound harsh, but I have not heard one player speak well of him, not to mention the comical amount of grieveances. I think that the 49ers would run through a wall for Singletary. I think Manginis guys would put him through a wall.
Singletary named Vernon Davis a captain this season. He broke him down and rebuilt him into a team first player that is turning into a pretty good player. Mangini treats his players like crap and gets rid of the players that don’t agree with it. Right or wrong, thats a pretty crapy way to win guys over.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
How many did sign here as FA’s? Bowens and Barton?
It just seemed like we signed a butt load of Jets due to the draft day trade. That and Barton and Bowens were not going to be brought back to NY.
So I guess your answer would be because that is who wanted them? Not the best answer, but I bet Derrick Brooks wished someone wanted him. Working for an a$shole is better than not working at all.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions
He broke him down and rebuilt him into a team first player that is turning into a pretty good player
so, by “broke them down” you meant that singletary made davis pancakes and carried his luggage? seems to me that breaking someone down would consist of A LOT of crap-like treatment
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 3, 2009 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions
No I mean that he benched the guy and made him earn his way back to a starter. He made Vernon Davis be accountable for his actions, something that I don’t think anyone ever did to Davis before.
Just because you are hard on a guy doesn’t mean that you have to treat him like crap.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Grievences arent being filed on Singletary. And Veronica davis got what he had coming.
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 2, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
This. And Vernon Davis has responed well. He looks like he may turn into the player they all thought he was.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions
i actually never said anything about personalities; i was comparing coaching philosophies. but if you want to change the argument, by all means, proceed.
i’m not sure why “mangini is losing the team” has become fact. the team is not good…ergo, mangini is losing them?
don’t underestimate the 9 games of seasoning that the 49ers had w/ singletary at the helm last year. it takes a bit of time to adjust to the singletary/mangini style of 24/7, 100% accountability, discipline and personal responsibility. as well, mike nolan was more of a hard ass than romeo, AND singletary had been around as a coord for some period of time.
i’m not saying mangini is great…just that his style is being employed effectively elsewhere (singletary being one of the many examples), and it’s way to early to punt on him.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 2, 2009 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m not sure why "mangini is losing the team" has become fact. the team is not good…ergo, mangini is losing them?
1. Locker room fight, followed by your star WR telling the press “welcome to the Cleveland Browns locker room”.
2. Grievances. Lots of them.
3. If that team didn’t quit in the second half of the Denver game, then I have no idea what you would call it.
4. 30-3. I don’t care if Baltimore is a good team. Kansas City took them to the wire. The freaking Browns made them look like a mix between the 85 Bears and the 07 Pats.
5. We have seen plenty of bad football teams here in Cleveland. I have never seen one play with such a lack of effort as this one. And it isn’t even week 4. They aren’t tired. What else could it be?
i’m not saying mangini is great…just that his style is being employed effectively elsewhere (singletary being one of the many examples), and it’s way to early to punt on him.
My issue is that this brand of coaching can work (Parcells, Coughlin, Billacheat), but Mangini has shown that he does not possess the skills to do it. You can only be so much of an asshole before the players start to tune you out. He failed in NY and Cleveland has been terrible. Hell the Lions won a game.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions
1. Abe Elam claims that no punches were thrown. Only ice.
2. Of which we still know nothing. The only grievance we know anything about is the $1700 bottle of water grievance (which Elam debunks on his blog).
3. I saw a defense that was worn out.
4. The Ravens are a good team, though.
5. I saw a lot of players leaving it all on the field, and a few (ahem…Brandon McDonald) who gave up. Interestingly enough, at least one of the players who gave up is now on the bench.
I don’t care what Elam says, the fight happened IN FRONT of the media.
And if you can find me any source that says the Browns players AREN’T filing grievances. Adam Schefter is as good as it gets when it comes to the NFL, so I trust what he says. The water bottle incident, whether its true or not, is just one of many incidents.
Yes Brandon McDonald was benched, and he should have been. He should not have been replaced with a safety.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t care what Elam says, the fight happened IN FRONT of the media.
The same media that continues to report on the $1700 water bottle fine?
And if you can find me any source that says the Browns players AREN’T filing grievances.
I didn’t say that players weren’t filing grievances. I said that we know nothing about the grievances which have been filed.
Yes Brandon McDonald was benched, and he should have been. He should not have been replaced with a safety.
I agree.
Really? The media is making the fight up or embelishing it? I am sure that every single media outlet got together and made it up.
As for for the water bottle incident, so far it is a he-said she-said. And once again, I don’t care what the fine was for. Water bottle, parking spaces, whatever. 1,700 dollars is stupid and it is killing a fly with a cannon. Just like Mangini. This is why his players have disliked him no matter where he goes.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I tend to believe one of our players over Tony Grossi or whoever else was in that room.
Especially when it comes to the water bottle fine. Elam has the media 100% on his side and he comes out and says that, no, they have it wrong? Why would he do that unless they, in fact, had it wrong? If he were as pissed as you seem to think he is, wouldn’t he be playing it up to the media?
A grievance is a form of arbitration between team and player. Dispute resolution. Nothing more. The filing of a grievance doesn’t indicate that a) the player is pissed off or fed up with the team or coaching staff, and b) that the player is in the right and the team or coach is in the wrong.
Wait, we aren’t talking about the rookie hazing thing, are we? If so, Bernie, I think you are off on this one. Everything I’ve read on that makes it seem very harmless.
How is a player punching another player IN FRONT OF THE MEDIA, not a big deal? Not only that, other players treated in like it was a normal occurance.
That is a big deal.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Im taking a break from this site, maybe you’ll see me when Quinn gets back in…
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 6:11 PM EDT reply actions
You’re a Yankee fan, comes with the territory.
by Roger Dorn on Sep 30, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Rec
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yankees = Satan. Rip on Yankee = Green.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, psuedo-Browns fan who is also a Yankees fan doesn’t get much sympathy from me when they decide to leave after an 0-3 start.
If you look on do you can see that the whole leaving thing was a joke.
I have 2 accounts, and I said I was leaving on one, but Im staying with another.
No one can take jokes these days…
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, the two accounts thing is pretty annoying. This is why.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Well sorry but Im just trying to have some fun instead of whining about how much we suck all the time.
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
there’s a huge difference between whining…all the time and analyzing, discussing, and critiquing the situation.
Those in the former camp are fair-weather fans. And they are more than welcome to flee in this latest storm…
Im not fleeing, unless people want me to leave
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 1, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I was planning on being done with those, unless i think of something really good to do with them
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 1, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I find this whole “I’m not going to be a Browns fan if BQ is not QB” thing on this board right now to be kind of juvenile. I wanted Anderson from the beginning but I didn’t stop rooting for the team because Quinn got picked to be the QB. I wanted them to be successful no matter what.
To me it is not about giving this or that player a chance, it is about giving the Browns the best chance of winning. You don’t have the luxury in the NFL to build and build and build. Why? Because while you are building here something else is crumbling there. Someone wants a bigger contract if they are successful, this other guy gets hurt and is never the same, that guy gets older and loses a step. It is how it works.
Teams go from bad to good in a year. Other teams seem to be good for a very long stretch. Some of it is luck, some skill but you have to always try and win now with what you have.
Brownsyup
by Brownsyup on Oct 1, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I really think the only person saying they won’t be a Browns fan unless Quinn is the QB is BQiB (or TRSS) and I suppose he’s allowed because I think he only became a Browns fan when they drafted Quinn, so he’s more of a Quinn fan than a Browns fan (although he’s become quite the Browns fan the past two years). Many people have voiced their opposition to the benching of Quinn but I haven’t heard anyone else say they’re ready to give up on the Browns because of it.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 1, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No cult of personality going on here. I’ll be a fan even if they reacquire Gradkowski and start him for the rest of the year.
(Oh, but there would be alcohol involved.)
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 1, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said I dont wanna be a fan if Quinn is gone.
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 1, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Its not because of this, I just think I’ve been spending too much time on here and with all the homework I’ve been getting, I need to spend less time doing something.
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The reason I said I might come back is because then I might have something to talk about. Right now we have just been going through repetitive conversations
by TheRealSlimShady on Sep 30, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
BUT IM STILL HERE!
" Of course Steroids should be allowed! I wanna see 700 foot home runs and 90 yard field goals! I litterally want to see someone's d**k get shoved in the dirt!"
by BradyQuinnisBeast on Sep 30, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It is unfortunate that Mangini is willing to forego the possibility of more substantive change with the team in the hope that they’ll have some short term success.
I do not think Anderson is a long term answer for the team because:
He has few weapons in his arsenal.
His opponents figured out these weapons in 2007, and shut him down. (After the most recent Ravens game, their players said they knew exactly what they would get with Anderson, and were prepared for it.)
He had three established receivers in 2007 (Edwards, Winslow, Jurevicius), while we only have one this year.
He has appeared to me to be a hot and cold player.
So, what’s the point of putting him in? To win a few games this season? I don’t think we are likely to reach the playoffs this season, so why not commit to the plan Mangini came into the regular season with, and watch it play out? I wouldn’t care if they lose a ton of games this year. If it doesn’t work out, then it will be easy to see that we need a new QB in 2010.
Indeed, although we’ve said all this before….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 30, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Unbelievable….Quinn gets 2 and half games to prove himself. All three of the teams are undefeated that we’ve played and some of the top defenses in the league. I just think that he deserved at least 8 games to show something. It would just be nice for the Browns to not be a punchline anymore.
well, being that we play in the AFCN, we’re going to face some of the NFL’s top defenses (BAL, PIT) every year. at some point, quinn’s going to have to show more than he has against’ “some of the top defenses”
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
This doesn’t surprise me. Mangini is not going to give up on the season after just 3 games. Maybe Anderson can lead us to a victory over the Bengals. I’m all for trying to win.
Lets say that DA plays decent and the Browns somehow win. Then what? You think that this is a playoff football team? Or was a week 4 win over Cinncy worth not getting a full grasp on what we have at QB?
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 30, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I do not think this is a playoff team. I’m just saying that it’s Eric Mangini’s job to get the most out of this team. If he feels that he can’t do it with Quinn, or that Anderson may give him a better chance, then he should not hesitate to make the switch.
Well if that is the case why did Detroit pick Stafford over Culpepper? The reason is because the Lions have a plan and it is for the future. I still have no idea what this team is thinking.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions
It seems that Mangini wanted to try to win this year, even at the cost of the team’s future. The trade down from the #5 pick for veteran players certainly suggests that. I’m just confused why he took this approach when the team he was inheriting went 4-12 the previous year. Even more so, I’m confused why Randy Lerner would hire a coach with such a gameplan. Did he think it would be easy to recreate our ’07 success?
It could be that he did it with the Jets. (4-12 the year before Mangini to 10-6 and playoffs in Mangini’s first year). It could be that Lerner saw it done by his Cleveland Browns (4-12 in 2006, 10-6 in 2007).
Even on my most optimistic days this offseason and preseason, I didn’t see more than 8 wins this season, but it is silly to say that a 4-12 team has no chance to compete the next season in the NFL. Mangini’s 06 and the Browns’ 07 are not that uncommon in the NFL. See also, Miami, Baltimore, Atlanta last year.
Yes Mangini took a 4-12 team to the playoffs. The following year, he finished the year at 4-12.
Romeo Crennel took a 4-12 team to 10 wins. The following year, he finished the year at 4-12.
Scary huh?
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
SO…if we dump Quinn, which AFC team is he gonna go to and make the pro-bowl every year and throw for 350+ yards against us?
I think he’s gone if we stay with Anderson. Anderson would make a very capable backup to keep around, Quinn…not so sure right now.
by johnnyphoenix on Sep 30, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
well, miami’s starting henne for the rest of the season, unless something happens. but if he doesn’t perform well, they may go for quinn. wouldn’t surprise me. unless they’d rather take a qb from the draft.
I’m sure they’d love to get their hands on Tebow for their Wildcat….
by johnnyphoenix on Sep 30, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
plus, jacksonville has basically announced that they’re going after tebow. as far as i’m concerned, they can have him.
That’s a smart move in Florida though. Asses in the seats and Jerseys will fly off the shelves.
by e.c. matter on Sep 30, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
No it’s not. Fans come if you win games, not if you draft a local hero. That will only last so long.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Not the same thing. Tebow was a Florida high school legend before he ever suited up as a Gator. And as a gator he won a national championship and a heisman trophy.
The Jags would sell enough tickets and merchandise in the first year to cover the entirety of his contract. And the buzz around the franchise, even if short-term, would be worth the, perhaps, wasted pick for a struggling franchise.
Many went to see him even when he wasn’t starting. How many #10 jerseys were out there before he even saw game action?
…and what are people doing with those jerseys now?
I gave my Gerard Warren jersey to Goodwill.
They didn’t want it either.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 2, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe for one or two games. That wouldn’t have a lasting effect, though. If the owner/ GM really picks Tebow just because he’s a local legend then they’re really, really stupid. If he turns out to be a bad NFL quarterback they will soon turn on him and want someone else playing.
The fans will come if they build a winning team, not just to see one player. They may sell a few jerseys and tickets but that won’t last very long.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 1, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
drafting local heroes hasn’t worked out so well for the charlotte bobcats…
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Bullshit. Asses in seats to see tebow. He is the second coming in Fla.
by johnnyphoenix on Oct 2, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Pat White actually doesn’t play very often, if at all, in the true wildcat. Miami has him take snaps in spread option plays, which is not nearly as effective as Ronnie Brown taking snaps in the traditional wildcat with Ricky Williams moving on the sweep option.
The spread option is NOT the wildcat. And I’m pretty sure they haven’t even put Pat White in on a single traditional Dolphin wildcat play.
I think one common misconception about the wildcat is that you need a RB / Athlete that has the ability to throw well. While that is nice, the first thing you want to be effective is 1 great RB (under center) and another good RB (sweep option). Once you’ve got that and you can run it fairly consistently, you can catch the defense off guard and will not need a lot of true passing skill to make the throws out of the wildcat.
The real problem that the wildcat creates for defenses is not that the RB is a threat to throw, it is that the never know which way the ball is going on the run. There about 6 different places the offense can run the ball out of the traditional wildcat. (The small passing threat should be less of a priority.)
The Ian Eagle / Rich Gannon team gets to broadcast Browns/Bengals game.
Gannon was persona non grata at the Raiders team HQ last week, having blasted his former team frequently. CBS pointed out that their contract required the Raiders to let him in.
It will be interesting to get his take on Anderson/Quinn.
Great. Rich Gannon is the idiot who defended Hines Ward’s cheapshot hit against Daven Holly.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
We're still playing?
I already moved on to hockey. Go Jackets!
Let’s be honest, none of us will be happy till June/July when we somehow forget how truly bad we were.
I would put the browns chance of winning with DA this sunday at 20 … and with Quinn at less than 5… Mangini would be an idiot to turn down those odds…
DA’s strenghts just make the offense better than his weaknesses hurt it…
May I remind you of this game? Oh, the power of DA.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
May I remind you of the other Cincy game? Oh, the power of DA.
(Just saying you can do that both ways.)
I thought someone might bring that up. Mr. Jekyll, I’d like you to meet Mr. Hyde.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 1, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
True. But he wasn’t under any pressure to win the early game. Second time, he was a must-win for the playoffs. DA then pulled one of the all-time gag jobs. Granted Romeo’s coaching didn’t help him much.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
DA has done nothing but gone downhill from his fluke of a game against Cincy two years ago. He has no 2007 form and he made the Pro Bowl by default. Pull up his stats from 07 and his QB rating steadily declined all year. I hate Notre Dame and was never sold on Quinn, but DA got 8 games to stink it up last year. DA has proven his inability over and over to make sound decisions with the football and he can not make the accurate short throw. You would be delusional to think DA is going to take the Browns to the playoffs this year. Let Quinn play his way to waviers or the starting job!
The logical part of me says it is far too early to be thinking about firing Mangini.
Something else in me thinks we should, and promote Rob Ryan to head coach.
by rufio on Oct 1, 2009 2:40 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
what bothers me most about this QB move from Mangini is that he said in the offseason that when he finally chooses a QB that it will be a decision he will stick with. Well he stuck with it for 3.5 games and to me Brady did not get a fair shot! We are not going to the playoffs and we dont have to win now, give the kid a shot to get better. I don’t know how to feel about Mangini, but I don’t trust him thats for sure…
Joey_D
2.5 games, 10 quarters. Mangini goes through the camp bullshit, takes his sweet ass time to name a QB, and now this? Sorry. I hope they trade Quinn. The toughest position is all sports you could argue and give a guy 10 quarters, who is learning a whole new offense, all be it a 10 yard passing game, play 3 teams that are 9-0, and say," see ya Brady, nice to know your ass."
Trade him. This just reeks of the inability to run a team.
I was opposed to this before, but I dont know what to think about it now
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 1, 2009 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, let’s not forget we root for the BEST football team EVER. So we have THAT going for us, no matter how bad we suck. I say we adopt the Hartford Whale Theme and just listen to it….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDKSpEfPOTo&mode=related&search=
Setting up for Win
This whole season is a lose/lose for DA unless he can grab some wins quickly, or beats Pitt. The fans in the seats are now back to loving the Back up QB. DA will be booed mercilessly each interception. And when he gets hurt, possibly from tripping over his own feet in the red zone, the cheers for BQ coming in will be nuts, if Brown fans know anything, they know when a player has been given a raw deal…..should be interesting.
Hey, Buckeye Brad … I haven’t forgot!
I hate being right in this situation.
Watching the Browns this season you begin to understand how teams become periennel losers in a system designed to avoid that. Much like the poor in our society, they become victims of bad decisions from their past and are unable to overcome them, no matter what they do in the future.
Brady Quinn is one such bad decision. Not that the decision to draft Brady was a bad one, but leaving him on the bench for too long and leaving his ability as a mystery has hampered this orginization. It’s kept us in a holding pattern at the QB position when we should have moved on in this past off-season. But that’s what happens when you have a coaching carousel that forces coaches to “win now” because they fear for their job. It causes you to be a franchise that is continually looking to eke out every win they can now instead of building a solid base for the future.
So, the Browns are in a catch 22. They need to make better decisions for long term success, but they have guys in there (IMO) that are making poor decisions and focusing on short-term success. Quinn should have been let to start (and play) at least 8 consecutive games this season. I can’t imagine the pressure the kid will feel next time he comes in.
Not that the decision to draft Brady was a bad one
Yes it was. A bad decision.
by Simmsinns on Oct 1, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Quinn is a flameout, I think you have to knock Savage way down. He took a risk and it could be a horrible backfire.
I always wondered if Savage picked up Quinn as trade bait. But then he gave up a first round pick to do it. It could have been seriously bad had the team played worse that year and given up a high pick but they didn’t. One thing that I always wondered though is why Quinn wasn’t traded when Anderson was having his success? It seemed we were QB heavy at that point but had serious needs at other positions. Do you think there was interest in Quinn from other teams that first year?
Brownsyup
There was speculation that the Vikings made a huge offer to the Browns for Quinn. Also remember hearing the Chiefs had made an offer for Quinn. Will never know if those rumors were truthful.
Here is the trade rumor. And if you don’t want to throw up all over your keyboard, don’t read it.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I read it, and subsequently threw up all over my kerboard. I guess the only thing we have going for us is that this was only a rumor.
If that happened, with Cleveland’s luck Quinn would end up being a top tier QB in the league if they made that trade
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 1, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I can name 10 players in the NFL that I wouldn’t trade for 2 number 1 draft picks. And 10 may be stretching it.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Almost. My list is this;
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Adrian Peterson
5. Maybe, maybe Darrelle Revis
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d add Philip Rivers to the list and subtract Revis, Manning and Brady. If I’m giving up two picks, the player I get would have to be younger than Brady or Manning.
I’d consider Calvin Johnson and Mario Williams.
Joe Thomas
Demarcus Ware
Revis can go, but I wouldn’t trade Megatron
Troy Polamalu
Patrick Willis
Haloti Ngata
Matt Ryan is quickly approaching that territory.
Andre Johnson was definitely on that list a few years ago, no I am not sure how much longer he will be a ridiculous talent because he is 28.
Plus the top 4 guys above. There are potentially a couple I am missing.
Good call on Matt Ryan. He has turned that FRANCHISE around.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 2, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Of all of the good young quarterbacks, he’s the only one who wasn’t dropped into an ideal situation. He’s certainly the best of the lot.
That franchise was a mess. From top to bottom. Ryan changed the whole attitude about that team. I thought he was the MVP last year.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought about adding Andre Johnson and Calvin Johnson, but I think that I would still trade them for two firsts.
My personal belief is that teams should always trade for draft picks unless it is for impact players. Shaun Rogers not Corey Williams if you will.
Case in point, the 49ers gave up their second rounder to the Panthers last year for Carolina’s first rounder this year. That pick may end up being a top 10. Evertte Brown is not worth a top 10 pick. It is like the only thing that I agree with Billacheat on.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m starting to think we should trade rogers.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 2, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
uhhh, obviously.
my implication is that we should trade him b/c we can get something very valuable (like a first round pick), not that we could scoop up an extra box of balls.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 2, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate to say it, but I think your right. San Diego has Super Bowl asperations and are missing a NT.
1st rounder in 2010 and a 2nd in 2011. Can’t believe I would say it but I would be down.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Yea, I love Rogers but we arent contending for a SB soon.
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 3, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I know. I just don’t want to become the Pittsburgh Pirates – always trading away good players now for potential down the road.
Arguably the problem with the Pirates is that they’ve never had any good players nor gotten any potential down the road. What good players have they traded in the last 10 years? Jason Bay? Nate McClouth? Those guys just happened in the last 15 months. Anybody else?
Shaun probably has 3 years left in him, and he might not play that long if its just for a losing team.
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 3, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Football isn’t baseball. Small-market baseball teams like the PIrates (and the Indians) need to do that to win. That’s the only way they can compete with the big boys.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 4, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. He’ll be done before the rest of the team is ready. If they can get a first rounder for him, they’d be fools not to do it.
I don’t know. If you trade for a first round pick, and that pick pans out, then you’re only getting a player as good as Rogers. Granted, the pick would be younger, but there is also the chance he wouldn’t pan out at all.
Look at what the Redskins paid for a top tier nose tackle. It is a premier position that is crucial to the 3-4 defense.
However, if we could get a first rounder + other picks too, then we probably should do it.
Not sure. But I do know this team is going to win max 4 games even if we have Superman at NT.
I know this because we won 4 games last year with Superman at NT.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like to throw in qualifying words so that I don’t get attacked from all angles, when I had no intent of taking a side for that particular comment.
You are wise in the ways of language….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 1, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Six starts. We still have no idea if Brady Quinn is a decent NFL player or not.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Ouch.
New York knows after three that they have a franchise QB.
"If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." -- #58
Think the Titans thought they had a franchise QB after three Vince Young starts?
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I just followed your link though. Reading through that now, it gave me a good laugh on an otherwise gloomy subject.
Really, that was quite a damn good call, considering it was only May.
Well, I was one of the few Browns’ fans online that was pleading for the organization to dump DA for whatever they could get (or cut him) and draft Sanchez. Or trade BQ because at least he still had some value (because his ability was still a mystery, to some extent).
I wasn’t certain that Sanchez would be a franchise QB, but I knew he was better than both the schlubs on the bench.
such a strong post…
but when would you have put quinn in? during 07… youd be an idiot to play him.. perhaps earlier in 08… but the browns were close to viability… at the beginning of the year and Quinn was essentially a rook…
the really poor moves that the browns made were in the 07-08 offseason… that move not to unload da…. is what really hurt this team…
In all honesty, can you blame them for keeping DA? They were 4-12 in 2006. DA takes over for a piss poor starter in front of him and goes 10-6. Hypothetically speaking, let’s say Romeo and Savage trade DA for high picks and start Brady.
And he went 1-5 in his first six games as he has right now. Fans would be all over DA’s nuts and ‘why did we trade him?’ and all that.
It’s similar to the situation the Patriots had with Matt Cassel last year… except the guy they had on reserve is arguably the greatest QB of this decade. The Eagles might be in this situation if Kolb starts and puts up another big game, but the Eagles could afford to unload him or McNabb b/c they’re both proven QB (Kolb less so, but you get my point).
Crennel had a rookie who’d played one series in ‘07. You expected him to trade a Pro-Bowler he got for essentially nothing (they got DA off waivers from the Ravens) and start a rookie it’s pretty clear he wasn’t particularly fond of? THAT, would’ve been a boneheaded move. If Quinn hadn’t went to the playoffs in ‘08 (i.e. had a better year than DA in ’07), Crennel would’ve fired. It would’ve been INSANE to trade away a QB after he just took the team to only their second winning season since their return to the league. No other team would do that. Except maybe the Raiders b/c they’re the Raiders.
by Michael Jay on Oct 1, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The situation then was a little bit more like San Diego’s. They had a pretty good thing going with Brees and then drafted Rivers. They ended up trading Brees in one of the biggest deals in the off season that year. They both turned out to be barn burners . I think that is the exception and if Rivers had been a bust, everyone would be saying how bone-headed they’d been as Brees is lighting up every team the Saints play. The only way you’d have traded away Anderson would have been if you were pretty sure you had a winner in Quinn. Maybe this speaks to some of the thinking in the Browns front office about Quinn. Even though they took him at great cost, did they really believe in him?
Anyway, I rec’d your post as I think it puts the actual events in context and, therefore, it makes more sense in helping to see how we got where we are.
Brownsyup
My fault I didn’t see this before my post.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Well spoken. Nice to be reminded where we were….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 1, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t the Chargers have a tough decision to make with Rivers and Brees? Granted it worked out because both QB’s are very good (Great in the case of Brees). So it has been done before.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Brees was fresh off a shoulder surgery and the Chargers just flat out dumped him. They didn’t want to risk him as QB.
The fans over here were pissed then, and they’re still pissed. I don’t know anyone here that likes Rivers.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Oct 2, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I personally think that Philip Rivers is one of the biggest douches in football.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 2, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t think of any other QB in the NFL who gets as many 15 yard personal foul penalties.
The guy is going to cost his team an important football game one day by being a dumb @ss. He has a ton of talent. That can’t be denied. But I am just not sure that I would trust that guy, and his temperment, at a big moment.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Me too. I can’t stand to look at him.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Oct 2, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ben's....
….Only a “douche” because he’s not on the Browns and he continually leads drives to beat you down.
And what kills you….more than that…you could have had him.
"If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." -- #58
Not really, he is actually a douche. I mean, he went to Miami which ups your douche rating, but even the people I know who went to Miami say he is a giant douche. Also, he was a douche in grade school- I’m pretty sure I played and beat him in CYO basketball one year.
by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 2, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You know what sucks worse than that?
1. Blowing leads in the fourth quarter to the Bears and Bengals.
2. Actually liking Hines Ward
3. The Steelers offensive line (I’m a Browns fan and I think Pitts O-Line sucks)
4. Drafting a bust in the first and second round in the same draft (Mendenfall and Sweed)
5. Being a Steeler fan.
Adios Douche, back under your rock.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
michael jay…
you have to look at my comments in the context of the discussion… I was responding to a comment by toxicadam… who was saying that cleveland should have played quinn earlier to see what they had… in all honesty… i would have been in favor of dumping either in the 07-08 offseason… however… I think that strategically… It would have made sense flip DA for a couple of top 100 picks… he was eessentially a waiver acquisition… but in any case… the inability to make a decision on a QB and to stick with him… has really haunted this team… Im not sure why mangini felt that splitting reps between 2 qbs would give a team better chance in a new offense… than just committing to one guy…
Savage’s strength was (allegedly) talent evaluation… not having a pick until the 4th round… really hampered this teams ability to get better in the long run… if they could have gotten a RT… and perhaps a RB… they might have something to build on after this year…
Ha, I guess you were right. But I never imagined Brady would play this terrible. This isn’t the Brady we say last year when he was healthy (which I know was only a couple games).
Of course, I really don’t expect much better from DA but I guess we’ll see.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 1, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I do think it is strange that Quinn has looked so bad in the last 3 games. I always thought the pace of the offense increased when he was in last year and in pre-season this year. In the actual games this year everything seemed to bog down when he was in. He and the team looked way different than before.
Brownsyup
That’s actually the biggest puzzle to me. What in the world happened to him? It’s clear that the team as a whole has serious problems with their mentality (as well as an overall lack of skill). It looks like they all took a tremendous psychological blow – they don’t believe they can win, and play like it. I can’t remember when I’ve seen such a mess, and I’ve been watching for a long time.
Frye in the game against Pittsburgh is the only QB performance I have seen that has been worse for the Browns since ’99 (excluding Dorsey and Gradkowski who were forced into the situation.)
Coaching. What happened is coaching. Daboll/Mangini are horrible, Peyton freaking Manning couldn’t do anything on this team.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
i agree on the daboll point, and i agree wholeheartedly with the peyton manning point.
i can’t get there w/ you on mangini so far, though. he has a record that is decidedly not terrible (not that 23-25 is world-beater quality, but 2 winning seasons in 3, and a playoff appearance, speaks of his ability), and he’s literally starting from scratch. there is highly limited talent on this team (in part of his own doing by shipping some people out), AND, he has instituted a 180-degree change in culture in the building. while talent is paramount, of course, these wholesale changes he’s made to the romeo/savage attitude should be expected to produce choppy results, especially with bad players.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa there, buddy! Let’s not get crazy. :D
The thing is great coaches can get a lot out of average to middling talent. At the very least keep their head above water until they get the talent they want, either through the draft or via free agency.
One only needs to look at Josh McDaniels in Denver or Mike Singletary over in San Fran can see what good coaching can do to an average, at best, unit.
I refuse to believe there isn’t talent on this team. I believe the talent is badly badly coached at the moment. I was willing to give the defense a little leeway until I started noticing how god awful the tackling has been. I think Braylon Edwards is a top 5 receiver if he had some good coaching behind him instead of “throw it in his general vicinity and let him jump for it.” Braylon’s route running has actually gotten WORSE since he was drafted. DA just threw him jump balls all through 2007 that he (mostly) caught. That’s just plain bad coaching.
Willis McGahee had a 34 yard run in the second half where one of our DBs (think it was B-Mac) had a clear line for a sure tackle… and he reaches out and pushes Willis in the chest with both hands. I’m not exagerrating.
Eric Wright dove at Adrian Peterson without his arms up to wrap him up. Peterson just swatted him like a fly and kept running.
We’re a poorly coached team. I’m sad to see to Brady Quinn be the biggest victim of that, but I’m in the boat that he was never that great to begin with.
Willis McGahee had a 34 yard run in the second half where one of our DBs (think it was B-Mac) had a clear line for a sure tackle… and he reaches out and pushes Willis in the chest with both hands. I’m not exagerrating.
Not only did McDonald not make a decent attempt, he then ran next to Willis for 15 yards playing patty cake with him.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
michael jay…
im not sure why people believe that the defense should fight for every inch in a game where their efforts make no difference… you are getting upset for a guy not tackling when the game was totally out of reach… I am a die hard fan… and I didnt even want to watch the 4th quarter… (if quinn had stayed in… I would have probably gone to sleep (i live in belgium))… Look… its a reality… this is professional athlethics… when the game gets out of reach… efforts decline… who wants to get K2ed… injured when it doesnt matter…
I would spend my time getting upset about an offense who only keeps possession for 25 percent of the game…
The McGahee run MAYBE, but the Peterson run was inexcusable. He didn’t shrug off the first three tackles he broke. Guys just didn’t wrap him up. Seeing D’Qwell Jackson just dive at his legs like a bird made me sick. And that play DID put the game out of reach.
I don’t buy the “when the game is out of reach, stop playing” mentality. How many miracle comebacks have we seen in the NFL? Best example, the Colts first game against the Texans last year. Down three scores with 3 minutes to go… and they won b/c the D forced three straight turnovers. Remember that Cards/Bears game in ’06.
If you’re gonna throw in the towel and half ass, go to the damn bench and let the young guys who are screaming for playing time get on the field (hello, Alex Hall).
When players quit, 99% of the time that falls back on the coach.
I guess I fail to see why Mangini is considered a good coach. I know he went to the playoffs. He got bitch slapped in the first round by 21. Then he goes back to 4-12. Then he starts out great, and chokes it all away (Blame Brett Favre as much as you would like, but shouldn’t a coach be able to get something out of his team going down the stretch?)
He has come to Cleveland and been Billy BA with the players. It has gone over like a turd in a punch bowl. He TOTALLY mis-managed his QB situation from jump street. I won’t go into the laundry list of off the field incidents that Mangini has had with this team. His players are filing grievences at an alarming rate. And we haven’t made it to week 4!
So other than one crazy season where he took the Jets to the heights of a first round playoff beating (to a divisional rival no less), what has he done differently than Butch Davis?
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it is too early to tell, especially here with us. Far too early. He isn’t directly responsible for the play design/calling on either side of the ball, so it is hard to see exactly how he is helping/hurting the team.
When Daboll makes a terrible call or runs a play that anyone can defend, it is easy to see how terrible he is. When Rob Ryan decides to blitz 8 and leave McDonald on an island, it is easy to see his mistake. There has at least been reasoning behind what Mangini has done—even if it is poor reasoning.
He hasn’t convinced me he is/will be a good coach, but he hasn’t totally convinced me he is Butch Davis (worthless as a HC in the NFL). Certainly not yet.
Mangini’s the one who pulled a starter after 10 quarters, watched the other guy throw 3 ugly picks, and named the latter the starter going forward.
Again, if the situation was exactly the opposite, I might not be complaining, but I’d know it’s wrong. No matter the outcome, his method is wrong. And the method is the number one thing he’s in charge of (players win games, blah blah blah).
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
i’m not going to argue that the qb situation has been mismanaged, but i don’t think that makes mangini horrible.
as well, i think i’m developing a theory that mangini knows he was handed a shit sandwich at qb (i think he believed that both quinn and anderson sucked as he took this job), and is trying to do whatever he can at qb to put a couple of w’s on the board before he scoops up someone more to his liking in the offseason (by the way, i have NO IDEA who someone more to his liking would be).
said differently, mangini has
neverthought the ’10 qb is on this roster, so he may not care what kind of development he gets out of either of the current top two.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
that blockquote never was supposed to be an italic never
never
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
i think i’m developing a theory that mangini knows he was handed a shit sandwich at qb (i think he believed that both quinn and anderson sucked as he took this job),
Then he should have been smart enough to trade them. It’s not like he had a problem trading other players that he didn’t like (Winslow). He didn’t care what the fans thought (thankfully) about that deal. Why should the QB’s have been any difference?
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 1, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I think someone either didn’t know or forgot that they were playing the Ravens. They blitz on almost every down when playing the Browns and the play calling never seemed to address it. Quinn was rushing his passes so a lot sailed high.
Screens didn’t work because the Ravens were already in the backfield by the time Quinn got the ball.
They threw a lot of dunky short passes that were never near the first down and when they were caught a Raven was standing there to make the tackle for little to no yards after the catch.
It just made me so sad that the team was so out coached it was not funny….
The Ravens played like they always do but the Browns seemed lost.
The trick against a team like the Ravens is that you need to pick up good solid yardage on 1st and 2nd. You know that if they get you in 3rd and long they are going to blitz you and they are going to be very good at it. Keep yourself out of that situation as much as possible, and be good and ready for it when it comes.
Then he should have been smart enough to trade them.
sure…that’s great in theory. but in practice, it ain’t exactly easy to move out 2 qb’s in short order and get something resembling a return for them.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 2, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
But isn’t it worse to keep the players and totally kill any trade value that they ever possessed?
DA should have been able to bring in a mid round pick. Thats nothing crazy to expect. Even after last year.
I do think that Mangini had a chance to get some real value for Quinn. Maybe not the 2 first rounders as rumored, but something.
This is all under the belief that Mangini thought both QB’s sucked.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions
“That’s actually the biggest puzzle to me. What in the world happened to him?”
“I always thought the pace of the offense increased when he was in last year and in pre-season this year.”
100% agree with both of these!
Guys (and Emily), that was PRESEASON. Preseason is only good for players coming off of season ending injuries last year to shake off the rust, rookies, and free agents trying to make the team. There is NO indication of how someone will perform in the regular season. Case in point, the Lions won ALL of their preseason games last year. David Carr looked FANTASTIC in preseason his first year with the Texans (I remember ESPN gushing all over the guy).
And last year against the Broncos, people seem to forget that the Broncos were a piss poor defense last year, giving up 374 yards in the air per game. They were ranked 30th overall. And Brady only had 268 yards passing against them. His average was 6.8 yards a catch. For comparison’s sake, that’s a little over a yard better than he put up against them in week 1 of this season. So don’t go gushing over Quinn like he was the second coming last year.
Don’t get me started on the Bills game where Captain Dink n’ Dunk completed less than half of his passes, (38% to be exact) and had less than ten first downs the whole game. Our defense and Jerome Harrison’s “I Made Chris Pokorny spontaneously ejaculate” Td run won that game for us.
Not saying DA is the answer, but Quinn wasn’t a godsend last year. Numbers don’t lie.
And I’m tired of this “give him time” crap. Matt Stafford took over a worse offense this year and they won last week. Joe Flacco took over a REALLY bad offense last year (they were 24th in the league in 2007) and went to the AFC title game, this is after he didn’t get a full training camp with him installed as the starter. He de facto got the job b/c Troy Smith was sick.
Average to below average QBs need time to adjust.
GOOD QBs show they’re good right out of the gate when they get their chance and the offense builds around them. Case in point, look at the Ravens offense in 2007, then 2008, and look at it now.
The playcalling’s been bad. I won’t deny that. But I’m not listening to this Quinn-apologist crap anymore. He looked TERRIBLE and currently leads the last ranked offense in the league. I agree it was too soon to pull him, but no more of this “he never got a chance” garbage. If he’d shown ANYTHING in 2008 before he got hurt, I really don’t think Mangini would’ve questioned starting him. It’s not like DA looked any better in 2008 (Giants game notwithstanding).
by Michael Jay on Oct 1, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don’t worry, pretty soon everyone will move on to crucifying DA instead.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 1, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Quinn played very well against the Broncos in 2008, moving the ball despite key turnovers that weren’t his fault, key pass interference calls against K2, drops by both K2 and Braylon, and our defense’s inability to get the ball back. I have tape of that game and have watched it multiple times.
Yes, the Broncos’ D sucked, but Brady played well.
He also played well against the 49ers during the regular season in 2007, and against Buffalo in 2008 before breaking his hand—the only other two times we have seen him healthy in the regular season prior to this year.
Win/Loss record is one of the stupidest statistics for evaluating a QB as an individual, as has been discussed ad nauseum on this site. Peyton Manning had an awful win-loss record his first year, but I bet he still did some things on film that made people realize he had potential. Drew Brees had a couple of statistically mediocre years, but he’s doing alright now. So, no; “GOOD” QBs don’t necessarily show they are good right away.
Quinn has looked terrible this year—I am not defending his performances. They have been bad. But, to say he can’t get better or that he hasn’t ever shown flashes of being at least a “GOOD” QB is just wrong.
yeah, not quite sure how that got in there.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 1, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, I botched that allegory.
My point was that people’s fate (no matter what their social status) is often due to decisions made in past. A past they had no control of.
Do we even know whether the guy can catch or block? We also know he lacks great top end speed, so remove return specialist from the list of potential roles in the NFL. Hmmm… maybe fullback but you’d want someone with more total bulk, right?
All I can think of is putting him in a goalline situations, where you might call a QB sneak or short PA pass. One thing we know for certain is that the guy can pound the rock, take a lot of damage, and get up for the next play. (Despite the latest concussion, missing 0 games over the past 3+ years is a damn good number, considering the way he plays QB.)
I know he runs around and screams at his team mates a lot. Oh, and he loves him some Jesus.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions
As a quarterback?!?!? Is this a joke? Do you really think Tebow is going to make a good NFL quarterback?
Tebow isn’t going to be picked anywhere near the top of the NFL draft.
i think he’s going to play qb in the nfl, and play it rather capably.
as to where he gets drafted, i have no clue.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 2, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The Cellar....
….Funny.
Even if that WERE to happen, and ther Steelers occupied that position in the cellar, there’s a difference between them and you.
1) They have the team that could get out of that cellar.
2) They have a better schedule than the Browns to do it with.
3) On that point, they play you twice. Wow…make that two easy wins right there.
4) The Steelers organization is not the Browns organization. Their team is just better, from the guys who sweep up the stadium aftrwards to the players, and the executives.
5) The Steelers dont lose much, so when they do, they like to correct it and continue winning. The Steelers have shown that year after year.
So essentially, have fun with your momentary excitement of being “above” the Steelers, al based on a “what if” scenarioa that a) hasn’t even happened yet and b) means absolutely nothing even f it does.
Fight on.
And as far as DA or BQ?
Call me when you get a signal caller who doesn’t look like he should be doing keg stands and lifting weights 24/7. Sheesh. Dude looks like a typical beefed up football frat boy.
"If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." -- #58
Wow. Someone’s pretty insecure about their team, aren’t they? That 1-2 record must really hurt some overinflated egos, eh?
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Oct 2, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
But wait, they are supposed to be the new “America’s Team” right?
Ha.
In all honestly, the notion that America as a whole has a single “favorite” team is pretty asinine, and is a simple excuse for being a front-runner. Based on ESPNs logic, America’s Team is the latest SuperBowl winner.
Based on ESPNs logic, America’s Team isthe latest SuperBowl winner.TIM FREAKING TEBOW
Fixed. Mark May thanks you.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Thank you from bringing down the intelligence level of this blog.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 2, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh thats cool that you scout the players that sweep the stadium.
by TheRealSlimShady on Oct 2, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The Steelers organization is not the Browns organization. Their team is just better, from the guys who sweep up the stadium aftrwards to the players, and the executives.
Hows your kicker working out for ya? At least he is a quality dude.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 3, 2009 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, I was really hoping there would be a change in the play calling or a shuffle of receivers before we started flipping QBs. Alas, all we can do at this point is wait to see what happens next.
I know that DA is just as likely to throw to the Bengals’ secondary as he is to a Browns receiver, but at least Zastudil will be able to take a breather.
Man, it is just so hard to get worked up about this game.
Solution:
Fire Mangina. He was a mistake to begin with. Cut both Quinn and DA. Sign a free agent QB for next year. And like I have been saying all year…With the 1st pick in the NFL 2010 draft, the Cleveland Browns take QB………you decide who we need.
If we can get anything close to a 1st round pick for Braylon “Hands of Stone” Edwards, do it. The defense is acceptable as long as the Offense can get them off the field every once in a while.
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