2010 Draft Thread (part 3) - Can Eric Berry slip to the Browns?
by Roger Dorn on Jan 18, 2010 2:18 PM EST
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PrintSo I did a little research yesterday about what the teams in front of us will be looking for by visiting the other SBN sites. I think overall fans tend to have a pretty good grasp of what direction their team should move in.
My conclusion is that we have a much better chance of getting Berry than we initially thought. Quick summary below:
1. St. Louis - Rams will select either Suh or a QB if they decide they need a franchise QB leading up to the draft. Chance of taking Berry - 0%
2. Detroit - The Lions took a safety in the second round last year and their fans feel the biggest needs are either LT or DT. If Suh falls to them, he is automatically the pick. G. McCoy is also a good bet to go here. Okung could be a sleeper. Chance of taking Berry - 15%
3. Tampa - This is the spot that I think is the biggest threat to take Berry in front of the Browns. The Tampa fans would prefer a DT, but it's possible that Suh and McCoy go 1 and 2. There is actually a post over at the Bucs website on why the draft has good safety depth and drafting a safety at number 3 overall is too high. That said, if Suh and McCoy go 1,2 Berry seems like the Bucs' fans choice for a fallback at 3. A trade down is also possible. Chance of taking Berry - 65% (contingent on Lions pick)
4. Washington - Washington has made 2 first round picks on safeties in the past decade (Landry and Taylor), and the team also needs a lot of help on offense. Offense will almost certainly be the choice, and they will either decide to move on from Jason Campbell and select one of the QBs or address the offensive line which they need a lot of help on. I think it's about 50/50 between the top QB and the top LT at this pick. Some grumblings over at the Skins site feel that Shanahan thinks he can win with Campbell. Selecting a LT at this spot would probably help the Browns get Berry. Chance of taking Berry - 0%
5. Kansas City - Another risk spot for Berry being selected, but the majority of Chiefs fans seem to prefer either a DT, in the unlikely event that one of the top 2 DT prospects falls. Another name that a lot of Chiefs fans want is Rolando McClain. Pioli is an interesting case where he seems to value positional value a bit more than top prospect available as evidenced by his time in NE and his selection of Tyson Jackson last year over the highly-rated Aaron Curry. If this holds true, he would be unlikely to draft a safety at 5 overall, and may in fact rate someone like Joe Haden a bit higher assuming he grades out as the top corner. Chance of taking Berry - this is the biggest question mark for me so I will put it at 50%
6. Seattle - Seattle fans seem to think that Jimmy Clausen is a great bet since Pete Carroll heavily recruited him at USC, but ultimately lost out to the Irish. The question is whether or not Clausen is still available at this pick. Quarterback is an obvious need for the Seahawks, but the team overall needs help in a lot of areas so this is another team that could do anything and not surprise me. Ultimately, I think Carroll will want to go with his franchise QB at this pick whether it is Bradford or Clausen. Chance of taking Berry - 33%
The Browns best hope for landing Berry is that the 2 DTs do not go 1 and 2 to the Rams and Lions. If that is the case, Tampa will think long and hard about taking Suh or McCoy at that spot. Once this scenario plays out, our last big threat would be the Chiefs at 5, at which point we should be rooting for them to select a guy like McClain or Haden. I really think Seattle will go with a QB at 6.
Now, I know some of you are not as high on Berry, but at the moment he would be my favorite choice should he fall to us. The Browns will need a pretty specific sequence of events to happen for Berry to be sitting there at number 7, but a lot can happen between now and April, a time when you see QBs and LTs rise just because of the positions they play.
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I would cry tears of joy if Berry fell to us.
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 18, 2010 2:36 PM EST reply actions
Hindsight is always 20/20, but I’m glad we got Mack over Aaron Curry, who wasn’t even in the top 3 of best LBs to come out of the draft last year.
yes. curry was just one of those guys that was a great player in college but who was just overblown because of the combine. without the combine he still would have been a mid first rounder, but nowhere near the projections. for his supposedly “elite” blitzing ability from the Linebacker position, he had only 9 career sacks (not that much better than McClain in this draft). he was a productive player in college but his production at times was overblown. everyone was just in love with a guy who was 250 pounds, had 25 BP reps, and ran almost a 4.5 40 from the LB position.
This is why you shouldn’t take LB’s that don’t rush the passer in the first round.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 18, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Great analysis Dorn. This breaks it down pretty well. I’d be ecstatic if Berry fell to us.
I really do think at least one of the two QB’s goes ahead of us, if not both. Teams always fall in love with QB’s at the combine and new coaches love to find their “QB of the future” (I’m looking at you, Pete).
The sweet spots for Berry really seem to be pick 3 and 5. The Chiefs and Bucs are the teams I will follow most closely leading up to the draft.
Its very possible seattle goes for berry also. I’m willing to say they’re a bigger risk than the Bucs.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 18, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
I agree it would not be out of question for Seattle to go in that direction. I was trying to rely on the general feeling amongst the teams fans and a lot of the Seattle fans were acting like QB was the position they would go.
I was hoping though with this post, that we could focus on what the teams in front of us were thinking, so I am glad we are discussing the potential that Seattle may in fact have a good need for Berry.
I agree with emily. this is a great scenario but what if there are No QBs available. I do agree washington should draft an LT but there is the possibility that they do go for a QB. if that happens, seattle is forced to not take a QB (if St. Louis already took one) and might go after berry. I do think that it is a wrong move for both washington and Seattle.
If there is no QB for seattle, they should go the LT route. yes they have walter Jones, but he is 35, missed all of this season, and 5 starts the previous 2 seasons. he has been having problems recently staying healthy and when healthy, he hasn’t been his old self. their backup at the position is technically a guard who moved to Right Tackle in 2006 when Porkchop got injured. He is not a true LT and that is what they need. Hopefully Okung will be available for them but they need an LT a lot more than people are saying. I have not seen many mocks that have them taking one, but I would say it is an area of great need.
if few mocks have it happening, it’s probably less of a need than you think. most of those mock writers do some research before writing. not all, but most.
yes. they do conduct research. I have seen a couple where they have them taking an LT, but some where they don’t. granted one that has them taking berry I saw also has Jacksonville taking tebow…
I was looking up numbers, and the left side of that line (specifically the tackle) gave up almost 20 sacks last year. most were by 4-3 DEs and 3-4 OLBs (a few from 4-3 OLBs). They really have a guard playing LT which is never that good. Plus they were 23rd in total sacks allowed. yes, there running backs weren’t great but they were still 25th in YPC. the only other 2 teams that were that low in both categories were the lions and the redskins. both of those teams many people have been saying they do need significant O-Line help which is true. you could argue that seattle needs as much as any of them.
you could easily argue that they need protection as much, if not more than the lions.
nice piece, rog. stranger things have happened, we might get lucky. but this year, i feel confident that whatever happens above us, our staff will make the right choice with what is available when we pick, be it a player or a trade down. it’s nice to finally have complete faith in a our drafters.
my preference with this pick is definitely defense. someone worth taking should still be there for us.
I don’t see KC taking Haden at 5. Safety is bigger need for them at this point. I could see them taking Berry since he’s projected to have the versatility to play safety or even CB, so they’ll place him where he’s needed. But they really need to take a pass rusher since their DB’s won’t matter unless they can get to the QB.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 18, 2010 3:18 PM EST reply actions
I tend to agree and think they have a pretty nice corner in Flowers. The only reason I am curious is that Pioli really does place a lot of value in positional value, and I am wondering if he would draft a top 10 safety. The Chiefs are a big wild card.
flowers is good. their biggest need is not at all in their secondary but in their linebacking corps. the last 2 years they have been bottom 2 in the league in sacks, rusing ypg, and rushing ypc. they can’t get to the QB and they can’t stop the run. while a safety can help a little in that, berry’s strength is in coverage. while KC isn’t great in coverage, their glaring needs are up the middle at ILB and at OLB next to tamba hali.
I’ve actually heard a lot about KC going for one of the top left tackles
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 19, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Our primary hope for landing Berry primarily rests on the hope that Suh falls to third overall? Ouch.
very true. what roger was saying is that pioli will draft for value/position rather than BPA. they did select tyson jackson last year, and although he was a great prospect, very few people had him pegged, until the few day before the draft, as even a top 5 pick. he was an excellent prospect but they drafted for position rather than BPA. he will likely do that again. they do need some help in the pass game but they were dreadful against the run.
Kansas city was tied for 30th in ypc given up and 31st in yards per game. Even if you take away harrison’s monster game away, they only drop to 28th and 29th respectively. so they gave up one of the best games in history and they are still horrible. harrison was amazing and he is a great runner, but any defense that gives up that kind of game is never good.
Their pass defense is not bad. they do have mike brown back there who, when healthy, is still a pretty good player.
their run defense was horrible as I said last year and their ILBs are not really that good. Demorrio williams has been there best player there and he is about average as a starter, maybe slightly above. the most glaring hole in their team is their inability to stop the run and drafting McClain automatically helps since they have absolutely no playmakers at the position.
I could also see them drafting a guy like Kindle or derrick Morgan. they were also 31st in the league in total sacks. it is a wonder that their pass was not horrible (22nd in ypg, 25th in yd per throw, 20th in opp QB rating) when the QBs had all day to throw. Tamba Hali is a nice player but they desperately need to put pressure on the QB. their pressure on the QB was better than ’08 but it is easy to improve on only 10 sacks. they are the only team to be in the bottom 7 in sacks the last 2 years.
I can definitely see them going after McClain, Kindle or Morgan. I do not think they will take berry because although they could use a FS, their pass defense is one of their lesser needs. their front 7 is where all the focus should be. not only were they the bottom 2 in sacks the last 2 years but they are in the bottom 3 in rush avg and yds per game the last 2 years. they can’t put pressure on the QB or stop the RB. these tasks are done by the front 7.
They have focused some on it, by picking up vrabel (who is past his prime though) glenn dorsey, and tyson jackson. now what they need is a great ILB and OLB.
sorry people it is so long…it isn’t just dumb stuff either…
summary for those who don’t want to read:
1. KC cannot get to the QB
2. KC cannot stop the run
3. KC has no playmakers at the ILB position
4. KC’s pass defense isn’t great but isn’t their glaring need
5. KC needs to replace vrabel at OLB and Hali should be a Strong Side OLB IMO
6. Pioli will draft more for need than BPA (e.g. Tyson Jackson)
7. Therefore I doubt Pioli will draft Eric Berry. I see him drafting Rolando McClain, Sergio Kindle, or Derrick Morgan (out of the pass rushers, I see him leaning towards morgan)
by bross09 on Jan 18, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the summary. I like this feature.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 18, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
yes. there is good stuff in the first part but very few probably want to read it…this summary looks much more clean.
in the future try starting with the summary version, then if anyone disagrees or has a question, that is the time to go into more detail.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 19, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
I know, I was just trying to encourage you to do the same in the future.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 19, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
thanks for the summary
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 19, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
I would be happy with either Berry or CB Joe Haden at No. 7.
http://dawgscooper.blogspot.com/
Dawg Scooper: An Unofficial Cleveland Browns Source
Interestingly enough, if you follow along the mock at mockingthedraft that TRSS is participating in for us, it kind of hints at some of the points I made. Tampa did end up with Berry at 3 since Suh and McCoy went 1-2. I really do think we need 1 of those 2 teams to not select a DT in front of Tampa if we want Berry to fall.
Its too bad there are too many trades, but its is pretty fun.
I would appreciate if everyone suggested people they want with our 2nd round pick. Right now I am leaning toward Gresham.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 18, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
If available gresham would be great. If damian williams (WR) is available I would love to have him. If people pass on him, he would be a steal, but he probably won’t drop. In Mocks I have seen online, I have seen JPP and Iupati at the tail end of the 1st. I don’t know if either have been drafted but they are options.
If sean witherspoon is left (and you think he could play ILB) he could be an option. Dan WIliams or Bryan price at NT. also trevard Lindley could be an option at CB (although from what I remember, you took haden)
I’m not sure about JPP as an OLB. I really don’t like Weatherspoon in a 3-4. I like Dan Williams but we already have Rodgers and Rubin.
And Price at Nose Tackle?!?! REALLY?!
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 18, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Personally, Iupati is a steal in the second round.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 18, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
Brandon Spikes would be a nice fit next to DQ.
Corey Wooten would be some nice addition to the DLine.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Spikes is a little small to play DE in a 3-4. I have some guys in mind for later in the draft at that position though.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 19, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
I think you mean Wooten.
He is already at 285 and I think he is going to get bigger. He reminds me of Chris Canty. I think he is perfect for the 3-4 DE.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yea I mean Wooton and I’ve seen him listed at 270. He also has serious knee problems.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 19, 2010 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
He had a ACL before this season right?
I don’t remember him having any other knee injures. (I am not saying he didn’t I just can’t remember any) If that was his only injury, I am still high on the kid.
I think he comes into the combine at 6-7 280lbs.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
and as someone who has torn an ACL, you can definitely come back from it about the same as before the injury.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 20, 2010 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
I like Tyson Alualu better. Clifton Geathers (sp) is also a guy to look at 6-8 287 DE
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 20, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
Geathers has off the field problems.
I think that Alualu is already at his peak. I don’t think that he will get much better than he is his right now. I think Wooten is just starting to scratch at his potential.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2010 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
I’d be a little surprised to see Wooten gone in the 2nd round. He had an amazing junior year but destroyed his knee in the Alamo bowl – his production senior year was pretty quiet. He was rehabbing basically all year and fighting off double-teams. But if you trust his junior year and the fact that he is such a physical freak, which I do, I’d love him in the third. Then take Sherrick McMannis in the 5th, just to round out the Wildcat presence.
If some people would look at that draft and let me know who you want in the 2nd, that would be nice. Right now my board goes:
Demarious Thomas
Jon Dwyer
Jahvid Best
Arrelious Benn
Your thoughts?
BTW Our good friend Malor was the one who took Gresham
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 18, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
Micah Johnson, also from Kentucky johnson could be a little bit of a reach (he is projected in the mid-second in most mocks I see)
Out of the RBs, I really am not a fan of either of them. best is similar in style to CJ spiller (but I actually like him better). the problem is, that harrison is a shifty quick back like spiller or best. to complement him I think we need a power runner. I like picking up Anthony Dixon from Miss St. in the third.
in the D-Backfield I would go safety. there is chad jones or nate allen. I also like stuckey or reshad jones in the third round (one might drop to the 4th…who knows).
I like benn and he could put up good numbers
I wouldn’t mind right side of the line but I don’t know what is available
I don’t really like Demarious thomas. From the projections I have seen, he has below average speed. this is puzzling to me b/c his YPC are ridiculous. he also is big and tall, but for someone his size, he really does not have a nose for the end zone. the one good thing is that he plays in a non-passing offense. I would like to see him at the combine before the browns actually draft him b/c I hope the 4.59 speed I have seen in places is a high estimate.
but for this, thomas would b okay…but I do not like any of the RBs that you said…mostly b/c best won’t be a feature back in the league, and dwyer does not make ppl miss enough and he breaks fewer tackles than he should.
Thomas has great game speed, but 40 times aren’t really that impressive.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 19, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
i do agree he had good game speed. he is just a bizarre prospect in an odd offense.
he has great game speed (i have seen that) but not a good 40 time. somehow without a great 40 time, he has a ridiculous YPC. he is a huge guy but he seems to shy away from the end zone. he also does not get a ton of catches. the lack of catches might be because of the fluky offense, but he also might not have god hands. I worry about a college receiver who over almost 3 years of starting, only has 120 receptions and 14 touchdowns (40 receptions and 5TDs a yr).
Also, I was looking at his game logs and it looks like he disappears a lot. on game, he’ll have 3 catches, then the next 8 catches for almost 200 yds, then back to 2 catches. I don’t know how consistent he is…
He doesn’t ‘shy away’ from the end zone, GT just runs the option on the goal line.
The type of offense is also why his stats don’t jump out at you and it might seem like he vanishes.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 19, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
I was saying I was not sure b/c I have not seen a ton of him on tape.
His stats say he shies away from the end zone but its probably what you said. because of the wierd offense and his bizarre stats (that don’t really seem to fit his skill set) it throws me off. I would agree with you there…
Even in an option, i worry a little about someone who has great games, then disappears. how much can you blame on the offense and how much on inconsistency??
GT averages around 5 pass completions a game. Not just Thomas, but the entire team.
Of course he is going to disappear, his offense doesn’t give him enough of a chance. When he is, he torches people.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
I ended up with Thomas. Dwyer and Benn were gone anyway.
Anyone got suggestions for the third round. What do you guys think about Jason Worilds?
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 20, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
What position is Thomas? I don’t even know who he is.
I will push for Danario Alexander, but don’t know what round he is expected to be drafted in.
Demaryius Thomas is a WR. I would never draft Alexander in the first 4 or 5 rounds, he is just so overrated.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 20, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Overrated? He finished 11th in Biletnikoff despite leading the nation in receiving yards. That sounds like underrated.
He is also 6 ft 5.
He only ran screens and a few slants.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 20, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
Um no. I know that is the perception since Mizzou runs the spread offense, but watch some highlight tapes. His average yards per reception were actually higher than the majority of his peers.
If you knock Alexander for being the product of a spread, you should be doing the same for someone like Michael Crabtree.
Try this highlight reel, a lot of flag and fly routes (over the top), not your typical spread routes.
Right.
The first one was from a single game (Navy). That could have been the gameplan going in.
You can’t draw all your conclusions from one game. Plus the guy averaged 15 YPC for his career, if he is just running slants and screens then is just running away/over people.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Alexander actually was asked to run far more deep routes than Jeremy Maclin was in 2008, and Maclin ended up having a pretty solid rookie season in the NFL. Maclin is clearly a better prospect due to his elite speed, but Alexander has better size, hands and instincts.
The Navy game gameplan was short passes to Alexander, and it was incredibly frustrating to not have them take shots downfield. That said, I believe the Navy defensive gameplan was to keep everything underneath and it is why they won with ease.
agreed. I just don’t trust the numbers. i mean, if you trust the numbers, thomas should not even be drafted in the first 4 rounds…just like he shouldn’t get discredited completely b/c of the offense, alexander shouldn’t get credited.
I watched him play more than a couple highlight reels. they ran a lot of screens and short slants. not a lot of pro patterns. if you have good execution on a bubble screen, you should get good yardage.
wouldn’t you think a guy that led the nation in receiving yards be higher than 11th in the voters eye?? these voters watch a lot of college football…maybe the fact that he led the nation in receiving yards but the voters thought 10 receivers were still better is a sign. he got beaten out by receivers from such schools (for the award) as san diego state and bowling green. and you know what, freddie barnes put up just as good of numbers as alexander and he went to a small school. to the voters, it was more telling of talent to play in the MAC, then it was to play in that offense.
No, it’s because of the stupid method they use to vote for those awards. Alexander wasn’t on any of the preseason watch lists, which really hurt him from the beginning because he lacked name recognition by many voters. His first half was good but not as great as his second half, so he didn’t make the “semifinalist” watch list. So by the time the season ended many of the voters hadn’t been paying attention to him to give him the credit he deserved.
By the way, I don’t know who voted on this award but I wouldn’t assume that they all watched a lot of college football because I’m guessing that many of them did not. Even if they did, there are over 120 teams in D 1-A so how many Missouri games do you think they watched? Probably not many at all. These awards are all about name recognition, not production.
So I wouldn’t make any assumptions based on what some stupid voters did.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 20, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
There was an interesting comparison I saw of Alexander and Jordan Shipley’s numbers against common opponents – since both teams play in the big 12. Alexander outproduced Shipley against each common opponent and sometimes by a whole lot.
Interesting. And Alexander was certainly playing with a lesser QB throwing to him.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 21, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71 at the combine. If a guy is always running away from players on tape, I don’t question their speed. Thomas runs away from a lot of people.
A lot of dudes run a 4.4 in their underwear. Not many run that fast in their pads.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
God hands. I wish we had a WR with god hands. (just bustin’ your juevos ; ] )
Braylon says he has god hands, but they’re really just goddam Braylon hands.
No no no. They’re “God! Hands!?” or “Goddamn these hands!”
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 19, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Dwyer. Is Cody still on the board? In the second round, I would love taking a shot on him.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Great write-up, that had to be a bitch to track down so many opinions.
Myself, I think that Berry will drop for one reason. The draft is just too far away. Berry’s best attribute is his out of this world anticipation. That is impossible to measure at a combine or on a Pro Day. Come April 22nd, it is going to be hard for certain teams to remember what sort of impact Berry made on Saturdays.
Every team does it. It is so easy to get caught up in a player running a blazing 40, or testing out of his mind in the short shuttle. Call it the Mike Mamula factor. It is the same reason that LaMar Woodley, after dominating the BigTen his senior year, lasted to the second round. Sometimes GM’s outsmart themselves.
Eric Berry is going to put up some great 40 times. But others will do it at “more important” positions. These players will pass on Berry because he is just a safety. I think that Joe Haden will be off the board before Berry.
I hope we don’t make that mistake, because Eric Berry will be an amazing pro player.
Good points. maybe this is the reason everyone was so high on curry last year. he did have good production in college but his draft stock skyrocketed because of the combine and never went down. he was drafted that high mostly because of his combine numbers.
I do agree with the sense that people and up forgetting the season and focus on combine numbers and 40 speed. it happens every year. Akili smith was a combine warrior. one could even argue that Jamarcus Russell was a combine warrior and people forgot about him in college (because he could throw 60 yards from his knees.
i think you’d be hard pressed to find someone who doesn’t think jamarcus was drafted based on the combine.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 19, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Russell’s stock exploded when LSU destroyed Notre Dame in the bowl game and Russell “outplayed” Quinn.
Then his pro day came and scouts fell in love with the fact that Russell could throw a football though a brick wall. Scouts, like I said above, forgot that Russell just has no idea what he is doing with the football. He made stupid decisions his entire career at LSU, but the draft was just too far away.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
I was agreeing with you, i was just making a joke about the wording “one could even argue…” i think almost everybody would argue that.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 19, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
I know, I was just expanding on the Russell point.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
I posted this in another thread, but it really is interesting to me how important tone of voice, pacing, and inflection are to human communication.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 20, 2010 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
wow…yeah, I would not like that. Even though he is from the same school as DA, I wouldn’t mind canfield.
I also don’t get how kindle will fall that far.
since DA though I do worry about taking a QB from Oregon St. Especially since neither had a ton of starting experience in college. at that point i might rather have McCoy. for QBs I look for experience. there is a stat that usually works that 30 is almost like the magic number for QB starts. most guys above 30 starts end up having decent or solid careers. most guys under 30 starts end up not being nearly as good. Canfield has 24. i think DA had like 26-28.
occasionally there is a good one that has less than 30 starts. there is not one set rule.
however, in general, 30 is kinda like the magic number and guys below it tend to do worse.
And I’m still not giving up on Brady.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 19, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Just because DA went to Oregon St. and was bad does not mean that because Canfield went to Oregon St. he will be as bad or even the same type of player.
I agree. I do like canfield in some areas.
I was kinda just kidding a little. I know that just b/c they both went to the same school, doesn’t mean they are the same player. they have different styles. what does worry me is the fact that he had less than 2 years experience playing QB. yes there are guys that do succeed with less than that in the NFL (Cassel, Brady) but those guys are not the norm, they are the exception.
since DA though I do worry about taking a QB from Oregon St. Especially since neither had a ton of starting experience in college.
Two different players, that shouldn’t matter at all. Plus DA was the starting QB for three seasons in OSU. He holds the Beaver records in passing yards (11,249) and TD’s (79). He had tons of starting experience.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Oswego State University, of course.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
Snead will be a bust. I don’t see why a QB that throws 20 INTS his 4th year of college should be considered a 2nd-3rd round prospect.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 18, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
At some point in this draft, Snead would be a great buy low option.
I don’t know what round that is, but I think McCoy is twice the QB prospect Snead is.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 18, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
I do not completely agree with this mock. I see the redskins taking Okung over bradford. shanahan did draft ryan Clady. I also see KC taking a LB (or Rush end to play OLB).
Not to be a jerk and dump on a great post, but if those were really the odds of each team selecting an available Berry the odds of him reaching us, I think, would be very low.
I believe it’s a simple multiplication… 1*.85*.35*1*.5*.67 = ~10% he reaches us.
As a probability rule, yes, that’s correct. Obviously it’s much more complicated than that because the probability of any pick depends on which picks went before that one and who’s left on the board, but I’m sure you know that. And his probabilities were just guesses, of course. But you’re right that even if those individual probabilites are rather small, the chance that one of those teams picks Berry is still rather large.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 18, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yea, the probabilities were completely fabricated. Ultimately, the point I guess is that there are two teams that I am really worried about, and if somehow those teams look elsewhere, our odds improve.
My opinion is that the chiefs will look elsewhere. Pioli will draft based on position need not BPA (tyson jackson). they could use a safety but mike brown can still make plays when healthy.
My opinion is they will go Linebacker. there best inside guy is demorrio williams, and he is nothing special. on the outside they have tamba hali but he cannot get all the sacks by himself. they need another pass rusher and an elite ILB. I see derrick morgan as being similar to Willie McGinnest in many ways (when mcginnest was good, not his browns years).
they were bottom 2 the last 2 years in sacks, and bottom 3 in rushing yards allowed. their pass D wasn’t good but it was just out of the bottom 10. berry does not do enough in the run game for what they need. they will probably go McClain (who they will see as a ray lewis type enforcer) or Morgan.
No offense, but because you keep posting the same thing over and over, you’re starting to sound like a broken record. Yes, we get it already! You think Pioli will draft by need, not BPA. I understood you the first dozen times! Yeesh!
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 19, 2010 8:28 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah but looking at them that’s about where I would put them. It puts it into perspective: a lot of picks need to roll our way in order to get Berry.
This is a good point. We do need specific events to occur. Our best hope will be the natural rising and falling of prospects that we don’t foresee currently.
I think it is 50/50 that he gets to us right now, and I think it goes up after combines, pro days, etc.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Until Berry runs a 4.2 flat. Wouldn’t that suck? Hopefully Mays runs something ridiculous and Berry runs more of a normal time.
If he does that, we have no shot.
Maybe we should be rooting for Berry to “tweak” his hamstring before the combine.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 21, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Detroit also drafts BPA style and since a lot of draft boards I have seen have Berry on top I think it’s a higher chance that the Lions select Berry, but that will all depend on if St. Louis selects Suh or not (which unfortunately I think they will).
Yes, I think I did underestimate the likelihood of Berry being selected by the Lions, but it would be unprecedented for a safety to go number 2 overall which is why I discounted the likelihood. Does anyone know the highest a safety has been taken? The highest I can think of is Sean Taylor.
The Browns took Eric Turner with the second pick in 1991.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Yeah, I agree that number 2 is really high for a safety but being as that I became a Lions fan after the browns were taken from us I have been following a lot of what it looks like they may do this off-season (as well as the browns) and Jim Schwartz is also super high on Jeff Backus for some reason and going as far as saying that he deserved pro-bowl votes for his play this year. So that all but takes Okung off the list, obviously they won’t be taking a QB, so that leaves Suh, McCoy and Berry in my mind and if St. Louis takes Suh, I’m really thinking they may take Berry just because of the whole BPA thing…. but then again it is the lions and maybe they’ll take another WR.
I think that with Schwartz’s background in Tennessee, he goes for Suh or McCoy.
Those Titan defenses were always tough upfront.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I definitely agree with you on Suh for sure, if St. Louis passes on him I’m about 100% sure Suh will be in Detroit next year, but if St. Louis passes on him I could see them going with either Berry or McCoy depending on who they have higher on their draft board.
Nice job trying to wrap your mind around draft day scenarios Mr. Dorn.
I think what is more relevant though, is that you still have Eric Berry to go first off your personal draft board, as I remember you supporting him since pre season. And that although briefly flirting with Ndamukong Suh as a player worth drafting in round one, he has not supplanted Eric Berry as your favorite.
I also remember, that from the Jimmy Clausen thread, despite beating the prospect everywhich way, you did not emerge convinced that he could be our QB.
I´m not thorough enough on this draft board to recall who else you may have been flirting with, but I think first of all we should figure out your rationales towards draft priorities.
As things often go in Cleveland odds are stacked against certain probabilities from the get go. Such as:
1. Abe Elam had a pretty darn good season at Strong Safety.
2. A lot of people would argue that Shaun Rogers could still best Ndamukong Suh in a comparison.
3. What are the odds of replacing one starter at QB from Notre Dame with another?
I have just one question to you directly Mr. Dorn. Would you be so nice as to list and number the players you deem worthy of going at slot number seven? It would give us much more to go on, in whittling away at a final Browns draft strategy.
I don’t think it’s so much that Suh didn’t displace Berry as his favorite, only that we all know there is absolutely no way that Suh will fall to us at #7 so we aren’t even considering him any more. It is more realistic that Berry will fall to us so that is why we’re still holding out hope to get him.
I can’t speak for Dorn, but I think that if we had the #1 pick then most people would still want Suh.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 19, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
yeah thats how i see it. i think before our last four games many of us kind of assumed we would have the first or second pick.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 19, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
To echo what Brad says, Suh would be a top priority if we were selecting number 1, but I see the possibility of Suh falling to number 7 as impossible. The difference is that I do think there is a chance that Berry falls to 7.
I think Elam played all right, and would not mind having him start at Strong Safety again this year, but the secondary needs upgrading in at least 2 spots, another corner and another safety. Berry is the best defensive back prospect in this draft and the Browns would be lucky to land him.
I haven’t thought a lot about the QB position yet, and kind of want to wait until I see what happens with the combine and the general consensus on the QBs before I weigh in. I definitely think there is a chance of the Browns selecting a QB in round 1, but the offseason free agency period could also dictate how we approach the position.
As for my personal preference of who to take at 7 assuming everyone is available, it would go something like this (in terms of best fit for the Browns combined with best talent, and not necessarily best prospect):
1. Suh
2. Berry
3. Haden
4. Bradford/Clausen (unsure at this point)
5. McClain
6. Morgan/Kindle (unsure here as well)
7. Dez Bryant
walterfootball’s latest mock had kindle falling all the way to the 3rd round I believe
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 19, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
yes, but the same draft has tebow going in the top 10.
supposedly according to this draft, Derrick Morgan has a shot of falling out of the top 15
they have the browns taking tony pike in round 2…which won’t happen
spikes falls to the second. tate falls to pick 41
ricky sapp goes to the end of the 2nd. at least they don’t have us taking snead anymore.
they have Micah Johnson falling to pick 90…
then they have us drafting a pass rusher instead of a safety (which I think is a bigger need).
Walterfootball is usually one of the better sites but this mock has a lot of weird picks
Thanks for your candid response. These guys may indeed represent the Slalom course to getting who we really want.
I’m not well versed in the FB’s that are availble in this draft, but I bet two or three of them would be worth the #7 pick and contribute to our “all fullback scheme”.
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 19, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No way Berry goes that late
Seattle will scoop him if he even goes that low. Safeties Good safeties are becoming a premium in this pass happy league and with little free agent stock at this position, he will go fast. IMO.
I am inclined to agree, but if you look at it from the perspective of what is available in the draft, we are looking really at only one valuable cornerback which may make Joe Haden a more valuable commodity. A team could pass on Berry and expect to draft another safety in the 2nd round. Again, my take was to look at what teams are likely to draft, and I only see 3 teams in front of the Browns that might take him.
I think Haden would be the kind of player Heckert would be willing to reach for, because CB is such a need for us.
I saw an interesting mock over at the OBR that had the Browns taking Haden at 7, and Nate Allen the safety from South Florida in the 2nd. I could live with that.
Call me crazy (which I know some of you will), but I like Rolondo McClain at 7 if the Chiefs take Berry.
So what if KC/Seattle takes Berry then turns around and offers him for the player they really want (with our pick) plus one of our other draft picks. Do you take it? They get their player at a lower cost plus another pick or they end up with a top safety. I guess thats why teams don’t like to let on who they really want.
Depends on the pick.
Anything higher than a 5th and they can screw off.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
NFL.com has the browns taking Anthony Davis OT from Rutgers. First time ive seen a mock draft with us taking something other then a QB or a defensive player. Although i would rather have Davis then a QB.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d815d58ce&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true
That mock is horrible.
If Haden and Berry both last to pick 13, I will eat a pound of mayonnaise.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 19, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Ya my feelings as well. Thought that NFL.com would have gotten it better.
by The Brown Note on Jan 19, 2010 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
its wierd, sometimes they have hidden genius (KC taking morgan) in this draft and then they are flat out dumb (berry and haden dropping, us taking Davis there…or at all)
I looked…they don’t even have clausen in the first round!!!
this is honestly the dumbest mock I have seen maybe (for clausen, plus spikes going before haden
Trying to look intelligent by making bold predictions that will be forgotten as tripe if they don’t come to fruition but that they could point back to if by some chance they do come to pass.
true…but some things are so bold that they are just completely unlikely to happen.
what are the chances that jimmy clausen does not get drafted in the first round?
0%. if he somehow miraculously does and this guy predicted it…good for him. if you are making a mock as a wager if something ridiculous or crazy happens, just to say you predicted it, i honestly do not find you very intelligent about mocks then.
I actually do expect him a 2nd round QB with a good 50% chance actually.
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 20, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
You really think Clausen to go in the second? Oh yeah, you’re an ND hater.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 20, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
while i think its unlikely, It wouldn’t necessarily surprise me.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 20, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Nothing should be a surprise when it comes to the NFL draft.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
. . . . says the man who promised to eat a pound of mayonaise if Berry and Haden last to pick 13.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 20, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
Cleveland stadium mustard, the only good kind there is.
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 24, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
i think we should all make an effort to remember this comment, just in case.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 20, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed and we need a DBN spotter to watch so he doesn’t replace it with Miracle Whip.
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 20, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
Watch them both test positive for weed at the combine.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
If they do you must also then snort 5 tobasco sauce trails.
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 20, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
The fire sauce, not that weak “mild” shit.
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 20, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
its wierd, sometimes they have hidden genius (KC taking morgan) in this draft and then they are flat out dumb (berry and haden dropping, us taking Davis there…or at all)
I looked…they don’t even have clausen in the first round!!!
this is honestly the dumbest mock I have seen maybe (for clausen, plus spikes going before haden
You guys may have read this already, but the late release of underclassmen declaring for the draft, a whopping 53, might explain the disparity in the experts early mocks.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d815d4503&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true
I hope we draft Bruce Campbell just for the evil dead references.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 20, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
imdb says evil dead four is in production.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 22, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
scratch that, “in development”
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 22, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Mel Kiper’s first, and possibly most worthless, Mock Draft has the Browns taking Haden:
I’m not convinced the Browns will be willing to draft a quarterback simply because the position is unsettled. In Haden, they can’t go wrong with by far the top CB on the board, a player they can plug in from day one. A deft cover corner and great tackler, Haden is the complete package.
You are reading my signature.
i hate mel kiper, a lot, but i would like haden as well.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 20, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
i found a picture of this limb:
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jan 20, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Not a chance. We are not taking a RB with the 7th pick, I can guarentee that.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 20, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Probably not with the first rounder, but I could see us drafting a punter or signing one UFA. Zastidal (sp?) is supposed to be paid something like 4 mil this year, I think? Plus, he’s been injured quite a few times the past few years. I’d like to get a fresh leg in there.
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 22, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
The contract is probably a LTBE/NLTBE thing that gets us more cap room. No way we are actually paying a punter 4mil.
The injuries are a legit concern.
I actually think its his roster bonus.
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 22, 2010 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Quick Observation
I just did the math in your scenario and it adds up to 88% likelihood that he is taken before the Browns pick.
Right. And then 22% that he tests positive for weed at the combine and B19K eats a pound of mayonnaise.
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 21, 2010 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
88 + 22 = 110? Looks like someone else should be tested for weed.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 21, 2010 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
lol…all that means is there a 10% chance that he tests positive for weed and still is drafted higher than us.
Precisely
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 21, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
I’m pretty sure there have been players drafted that high (no pun intended) that were tested positive for drugs.
by bross09 on Jan 21, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Should have left the no pun intended out. That’s rec worthy.
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 22, 2010 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
I took my last ever math class last semester. I literally forgot it all over Winter break. I regret nothing.
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 21, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
BTW I got Ciron Black for us in the 3rd round for us in the 3rd round of MTD’s mock draft. I’m hoping Reshad Jones falls to my next pick. If not, Stuckey or Major Wright should.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 21, 2010 9:54 PM EST reply actions
What do you mean? If you are asking if they went pro then yes.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 22, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry am late to this thread, what’s the take on CB Haden? I’ve seen him ranked in the top 5 and also at the bottom of the first round.
On first impressions I’d take Haden if Berry goes.
"The Braylon vaccine- one jab and you'll never catch anything ever again"
http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2010eberry.php (Berry Scounting Report)
http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2010jhaden.php ( Joe Haden Scounting Report)
Not sold on eather of them.
That is indeed why we are obessesed with him.
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 22, 2010 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
compares does not mean will be that is all speculation on what the guy thinks he is more like but I do not see it.
Ed Reed was good vs pass and run when he came out along with being a big hitter.Berry is not.
by Brownsfan4ever on Jan 23, 2010 5:32 AM EST up reply actions
I gave the scouting eport because I did not see one and no one here wants to bring up his down side.This shows his down side of poor angles vs the run and bad foot work on the backpedal and lack of size and strenght for the position.
All everyone here is talking about is ow grea he is the 3 games I got to see with him in it he look ok and his last game he looked very bad,slow on the reads and out of position 75% of the game
by Brownsfan4ever on Jan 23, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
I gave the scouting eport because I did not see one and no one here wants to bring up his down side.This shows his down side of poor angles vs the run and bad foot work on the backpedal and lack of size and strenght for the position.
Every single player in the draft has a downside. That being said, if Eric Berry’s issues are his back pedal (100% coachable) and poor angles (I have watched a lot of UT football, and I have never noticed him taking bad angles) then big freaking deal.
As for his size, the Browns have had safties with good size that have sucked for seasons. Give me playmakers. Eric Berry has been a playmaker ever since he set foot on Tennessee’s campus.
Sign me up.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 23, 2010 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
Buy the hype if you like I do not and will not.Hope we don’t waste a pick on him just my opion. /shrug
by Brownsfan4ever on Jan 23, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Who should we use this pick on?
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
Not sure yet there is still undercalss that has not said if they will enter the draft yet or not.It is way to early to say who I would like but and I will hold out and see how things pan out.I always have trusted the front office to make the right pick even though over the years they don’t.
I loved the Mack pick last year and still think we should be trading down for more picks with so many holes on this team.If they pick Berry then so be it I will live with that and hope like I have always that they made the right pick.
by Brownsfan4ever on Jan 24, 2010 6:40 AM EST up reply actions
find someone who has less of a downside. you really cannot find a player (except for ndamukong suh) with less weaknesses…there is no perfect player and honestly, the weaknesses berry has are more nitpicking. you can criticize him for size but he isn’t smaller than ed reed or polamalu.
please try to find me a prospect with fewer major weaknesses in his game. you really can’t.
Walterfootball is worthless. I don’t trust them to know if Berry was supposed to be the alley, force, cutback, or contain defender on any given running play. Still, that’s not something that’s too hard to train out of guys anyway. Just about everyone in the NFL is a gamebreaker in college, so defenders face adjustments anyway.
Even though it doesn’t look like they updated that scouting report all year, I will give you this, from the link you posted:
Berry is the No. 1 prospect in the 2010 NFL Draft, in my opinion.
Player Comparison: Ed Reed. Both players are 5-11 with a surreal knack for the game of football and have the ball skills, range, and playmaking ability you look for.
I don’t think Berry would have any problem getting to the same size as Polamalu (listed 5’10", 207), Reed (5’11", 200), or even LaRon Landry or Brian Dawkins (both 6’, 210). Berry is pretty lean right now, and I don’t think it would be outrageous for him to add 5-10 lbs between the end of the season and the combine and another 5-10 after he’s in the league. If strength is the thing that is limiting his game, he can improve it.
He’s just got something that the other guys don’t have, that you can’t coach, and that is extremely hard to develop. Every player to ever play the game has things to improve on, except maybe Munoz. Nitpicking his talent doesn’t mean he isn’t worth a very high 1st round pick.
I think the only real argument against selecting Berry should he fall to us is the value of having an extremely talented safety vs. someone who plays closer to the ball (QB, pass rusher, OT, NT). I think given our ridiculous lack of depth that Berry or a similarly talented safety would be worth it.
that isn’t completely true. berry might not be as good as ed reed against the run, but he is pretty darn close. he is one of the best safeties against the run. he is better than earl thomas against the run, a much bigger hitter, and he is a more solid defender against the run sometimes than even taylor mays. he is a solid fundamental tackler who can make the big hit in the open field.
He makes a lot of plays for a safety behind the LOS and he excells at getting to the QB. the only knock I can see is that he isn’t above 6 feet and doesn’t have elite size…but neither did ed reed.
If you’re not sold on Eric Berry then I have no idea what you’re looking for.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 22, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
A man that takes poor angles on run stops and is ok in pass coverage is not a great or awsome player.A SS/FS is your last line vs pass and run if he takes a bad angle on run stops then he is just a LB playing SS
by Brownsfan4ever on Jan 23, 2010 5:28 AM EST up reply actions
Are we discussing the same Eric Berry?
Ok in pass coverage?
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 23, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
he isn’t the most consistent player at taking angles against the run but very few safeties coming out are. even ed reed was not elite on his angles against the run. in every aspect of the game, I would say he is the best safety prospect and one of the best in years (except for how hard he hits…mays is a little better).
he does not consistently take poor angles. he isn’t as consistent as people would like on his angles, but if that is your only knock, that is pretty weak. that is like saying “oh, peyton manning can’t scramble that well”.
it is hilarious that you say OK…he reads the quarterbacks eyes better than anyone coming out since ed reed. both him and reed are playmakers, have great hands, and are marvelous in coverage because they know exactly where the ball is going to be. he is really one of the top 1-2 most complete prospects in this draft.
He migh read the QB’s eyes and most of the plays I seen him make was a bad pass from the QB.He is out of position on most pass plays and only looks for the big hit n tackles he does not wrap up a tackle well and tries to destroy the player not tackle.NFL that will not work players are bigger faster and will shrug off those type of hits and keep on going.Size at SS/FS does matter and Berry does not have it
by Brownsfan4ever on Jan 23, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
Are you sure you aren’t talking about Taylor Mays?
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
yeah…it must be the QBs fault every time berry makes a good play. if he can read the QBs eyes, he can read it. he faced some darn good QBs in the SEC.
He is in the right position in just about every play…seriously have we been watching the same guy or did you somehow come up with a 20 second tape of all his blown plays. He is in the right position on just about every pass play…
He looks to stop the play from happening…not the big hit. he had a good amount of pass breakups and a lot of interceptions…doesn’t sound like he goes for the hit.
saying he doesn’t wrap up well is completely false. this is one of his best qualities. he isn’t a huge hitter but is a very good fundamental tackler.
Size does matter…here are some successful safeties that are a similar size to Berry and do not suffer because of their size
Bob Sanders 5’9’’ 201 lbs (Strong S)
Ed Reed 5’11’’ 200 lbs (FS)
Polamalu 5’10’’ 207 lbs (Strong S)
Louis Delmas 5’11’’ 202 lbs (Strong S)
Nick Collins 5’11’’ 207 lbs (FS)
Reynaldo Hill 5’11’’ 205 (SS)
Eric Berry 5’11’’ 203 (last weighted weight…could put on some pounds)
look at all these successful NFL safeties…if these guys have enough size to be successful why doesn’t berry?? he has more size than Ed Reed. he is bigger than reed coming out and his projected 40 speed is about .2 seconds slower. yes projected doesn’t mean much but his 40 speed coming out of HS was a 4.34. he also was listed as 6 feet then so he might be 6 feet flat.
the point is, blaming on his size is dumb because there are smaller guys that have been superstars.
Size at SS/FS does matter and Berry does not have it
Continuing Rufio’s point:
Eric Berry 5-11 203lbs.
Troy Polamalu 5-11 207lbs.
Bob Sanders 5-8 206lbs.
LaRon Landry 6-0 210lbs.
Donte Whitner 5-10 208lbs.
Antrel Rolle 6-0 208lbs.
Ed Reed 5-11 200lbs.
Brian Dawkins 6-0 210lbs.
Nick Collins 5-11 207lbs.
Jim Leonhard 5-8 186lbs.
Brandon Meriweather 5-11 200lbs.
Ryan Clark 5-11 205lbs.
Eric Weddle 5-11 200lbs.
Oshiomogho Atogwe 5-11 205lbs.
Michael Griffin 6-0 202lbs.
According to this list, Eric Berry isn’t lacking for size one bit. Other than Ed Reed, no one on this list shows the kind of anticipation that Berry showed at UT.
NFL that will not work players are bigger faster and will shrug off those type of hits and keep on going
Look at the list above and ask yourself if any of those guys can hit.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 24, 2010 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Until I see a DNA test, I will continue to believe that Adrian Wilson is an alien.
Unless someone knows of another human that can jump over 66 inches.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 24, 2010 2:46 AM EST up reply actions
and that list has guys that hit and wrap up after the hit.Nit pick what I said and leave out the big part were I said he hits but does not wrap up.
by Brownsfan4ever on Jan 24, 2010 6:30 AM EST up reply actions
thats not true either though
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 24, 2010 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
there is a difference between occasionally doing something and doing something often. occasionally berry doesn’t take good angles to the runner but in general he takes good ones more often. being inconsistent does not mean that someone can’t do it…
and also, if you are going by scouting reports and film…give us some solid evidence that he cannot wrap up the ballcarrier. you are saying this but please enlighten us. show us who, besides you says he does not wrap up. show me game tape where he looks horrible…
A SS/FS is your last line vs pass and run if he takes a bad angle on run stops then he is just a LB playing SS
Either safety would have a variety of run and pass responsibilities, particularly a safety as talented as Berry, particularly in Rob Ryan’s system (because he will have a guy like that do any and everything).
Tennessee actually rolled Berry up to play as the flat defender In their “Tampa-2” schemes against Florida this year. That would mean he would be the first line of pass defense, and I don’t really know what you mean by the last line of run defense. He would probably be the force defender in that situation, but I guarantee he had a variety of run responsibilities.
Additionally, LBs should be taking good angles on running plays, just like safeties, just like every defender. A SS taking bad angles against the run is just a SS taking bad angles. That player would be in no way more similar to a LB than a SS taking good angles versus the run.
Your point about players taking bad angles is taken: if a player consistently takes bad angles, that raises a red flag. Cleveland Browns defenders cannot afford to take bad angles. That said, the above just makes no sense.
Have you all heard that Herschel Walker is entering UFC?
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 23, 2010 8:14 PM EST reply actions
I found this to be a very interesting read about going against the grain to find success in the NFL. I think that inside the NFL (not to mention the fans) groupthink tends to rule. There are some very interesting observations on drafting.
Here’s a scenario: Berry ends up having a bit of an off day at the combine (or whatever) and that 12% chance happens and he falls to us. We, of course, grab him. Why not trade Rogers (plus other picks?), as Pluto suggests here, and get another pick in the first round. Yes, trade up. If Haden is still available, grab him. We’d get the top two DBs in the draft. In the 2nd round get the best available OL.
If we’re going to succeed, we need to find our own way. On defense, build a suffocating D that tackles well and shuts down the rest of the league’s strength – passing. Be bigger, stronger and more intimidating then the opponents offense. On offense, if you build a great OL then you can run to kingdom come and that’ll let the QB develop. Is Quinn the next Marino, Manning or Brees? No – but he doesn’t need to be. A good line lets us run and lets him grow to being serviceable. For over ten years I’ve watched sure bet QBs be pummeled into has-beens. Build the line, resign Vickers and run it down their throats.
Our tradition has been smashmouth football. The Jets are showing us that we don’t have to copy the rest of the league and be pass dependent and pass rushing-bend, but don’t break defenses. There is another way to win. I’d rather watch us do it our own way.
I just wanted to believe.
There’s a bit of an idea. But trading Rogers with no plans to get Suh to me seems like a step backward. Sure, we’d have two of the best rookie DBs, but they’d be hard-pressed trying to cover receivers if there’s no pass rush.
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
But as Pluto points out, we weren’t that much worse without Rogers:
Here are the raw numbers: In the first 11 games with Rogers at nose tackle, the Browns allowed 155 yards per game rushing. That was near the bottom of the league. In the last five with Rubin, it was 111 yards. With Rogers, they allowed 13 rushing touchdowns in 11 games; with Rubin, it was two in five games.
…and…
This season, he did not make many big plays — only 27 tackles and 2.0 sacks in those 11 games. In 2008, it was 73 tackles and 4.5 sacks in 16 games.
This is not to trash Rogers – he’s a great player. Its just that we may be better without him.
I just wanted to believe.
Yeah those stats are focusing on our run defense. I guess Rubin is the better lane clogger. However, I just think Rogers is better at pass-rushing than Rubin is. I reckon if we trade Rogers our pass defense might get worse. Hey, Charlie Frye did have a career day against us.
I like the plan to trade up to get both Haden and Berry. If it’s Rogers we’re shipping out though, then we better have a capable replacement.
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
As I’m sure you noticed, the truly relevant quote was listed below. We’ve spread around our pass rush with a fair amount of success. I’m just saying, while Rogers is a stud – can we be good without him? I think the answer has been shown to be yes.
I just wanted to believe.
1. I would say that the size sample of games without him is large enough to get an accurate depiction.
2. We faced some teams who just cannot run the ball at all without rogers whereas we faced backs such as Matt forte, AD, the Ravens Backfield twice, Ryan Grant. etc…
corellation does not causation. that is fallacious
And of course, I failed to quote Pluto’s most relevant quote to your point:
The Browns finished with 40 sacks, the most since 2001. They had 16 different players with sacks, five with at least 4.0. That fit into the coaches’ plan to have a team that brings pressure on the passer from different angles and from different people. It also means they don’t have to rely on Rogers to rush the passer — stopping the run is a higher priority. That didn’t work well with Rogers, though, compared with Rubin’s impact.
It’s all a matter of where you’re getting the pass rush from and obviously we’ve found a way to spread that around without focusing on the NT too much.
I just wanted to believe.
It doesn’t matter where the sacks come from, and Mangini and Ryan would tell you the same thing. Still, the more attention one guy commands, the less players we have to send at the QB. A coach would love to know he would get good pressure only rushing 4. We can’t do that right now, especially without Rogers.
The NT is the key to our whole defense, against the pass or against the run.
Rubin can play, no doubt. And the team seemed to find itself when Rogers was out with injury.
I still don’t think that Rogers being out necessarily caused us to start playing better. There were a huge number of factors: people knew they had to block Rogers (and did) while they didn’t know they had to double-team Rubin (and didn’t always), other teams had less to play for, we played the Chiefs, Quinn and DA stopped throwing INTs, Jerome Harrison exploded, Matt Roth became the best 3-4 LOLB we’ve had since 1999, Bowens moved inside and got comfortable, etc.
This isn’t to say we shouldn’t move Rogers; he isn’t getting younger, we have what seems to be a capable replacement, and we might waste the twilight of his career while we rebuild. Plus, he is a pretty rare guy who could bring us a lot in return. I think I would learn to live without Rogers if we really could get Berry and Haden in return.
We would have to find a guy that big to be Rubin’s backup, though, as I don’t think he would be able to play 100% of the snaps.
Very true. I think the team improved despite the absence of Rogers; especially the offense. It’s great that Rubin has come through, and on a talent-scarce squad like this can we afford two good starters at the same position?
I think any talk of playing Rogers at End or switching to a 4-3 is blind optimism. I prefer a 4-3 but the Browns are geared up completely to a 3-4 at the moment.
"The Braylon vaccine- one jab and you'll never catch anything ever again"
by LondonBrown on Jan 24, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
I really prefer the typical 3-4 personnel because it is so much more flexible. We never saw that flexibility under Crennel, but we are starting to see it now.
Rogers can play DE in the 3-4, and have a feeling he would play both there and inside in 4DL sub packages if Rob Ryan felt comfortable enough with Rubin.
I think not only can we afford to keep two good players at NT, we absolutely need to. How many NTs do you know of that are in good enough shape to play 100% of defensive snaps? Add in the flexibility of Rogers because of his quickness, and he’s definitely worth it.
Corey Williams would be the guy who isn’t worth it cap- and VORP-wise.
My point wasn’t that we have to get rid of Rogers or that his absence was the reason for us suddenly becoming better. I don’t think that’s true. My point was that his being out showed us that we could survive not having him around. Of course we’d have to find another NT, but a backup NT is much easier to find then a shutdown CB.
Pluto also points out that Rogers free lances more, which might not play as well within a strict scheme. It might play better elsewhere. If we’re going for a strict, disciplined defensive scheme it would be better to get guys who fit that mold.
I just wanted to believe.
That is the contention of some PD writers. But I did think you are contending that we would be better without Rogers and with Haden than we would be with Rogers and without Haden. I think that because of some of the things I listed, we would be even better with Rogers back, and thus better with Rogers and without Haden—at least in the short term. Long-term, Rogers is 30+ and won’t be dominant much longer, while we would potentially be getting a great young player. This, along with my trust of Holmgren/Heckert is why I wouldn’t be totally upset if this happened.
Backup NTs are not extremely hard to find, but Shaun Rogerses are. In order to be as good next year as we could we with Rogers, we wouldn’t be just having to find a backup NT. We would have to have Rubin step up and play as well as Rogers can, then find a backup NT, then Haden would have to be as advertised (and quickly). The way it stands now, we just have to find a CB who is above-average and anything else is a bonus.
Pluto also points out that Rogers free lances more
I love Terry Pluto, but he doesn’t know what a Mike point is, so I can all but guarantee that he doesn’t know Rogers’ role within the defense. That’s not to say it isn’t true, I just remember Rogers doing this a lot more under Crennel’s defenses (which were never going to get to the QB unless Rogers “freelanced”) than this year under Ryan. If Rogers really needed to one-gap, and Rubin can really two-gap as well as anyone on the team, we could use more under/over fronts which would allow each to play to their strengths.
I don’t believe in the “shutdown” corner. Revis gets beat. Asomugha gets beat. Bailey gets beat. Plus, what’s the drop off from a guy like that down against Cromartie or Rodgers-Cromartie or Trufant or Finnegan?
I think the success rate of 1st round CBs is pretty high, even from picks 15-30. How many good corners have been drafted in the last 5 years vs. good NTs? Great corners vs. great NTs? I can only think of one great NT drafted in the last 5 years (Ngata).
I do agree with all of this but I do think with this team we need to look more long term. the browns are not doing anything now and you even say it could be better long term to trade him. I agree it will probably make us a little worse in the short term but we are rebuilding a franchise. I really like rogers and what he brings but he is over 30. granted Interior DLineman have long careers (ted washington) but he might only have a couple great years left.
he is now 31 and has been banged up. he has played 9 seasons in the league. this might not seem like a lot but after the 9th season, defensive tackles often have a drop off. while they are still effective players and can still play, I have noticed a statistical dropoff after the 9th or 10th season for most players.
Sapp: 9th season
John Randle 10th season
LaRoi Glover 9th season
Pat WIlliams 11th season (while not a pass rusher, has seen effectiveness drop)
Chike Okafor (technically and end) 9th season.
I do agree with all of this but I do think with this team we need to look more long term. the browns are not doing anything now and you even say it could be better long term to trade him.
Who is to say that the Browns aren’t in the playoff hunt next season? This is the NFL. Insane turnarounds happen every year.
he is now 31 and has been banged up. he has played 9 seasons in the league. this might not seem like a lot but after the 9th season, defensive tackles often have a drop off. while they are still effective players and can still play, I have noticed a statistical dropoff after the 9th or 10th season for most players.
Rogers broke a bone. That isn’t banged up. Rogers has played in 125 out of a possible 144 in his career. 10 of those DNP’s came in one season. This isn’t like he has had knee injuries, he has been very healthy for a DT.
As for the drop off in stats, Rogers isn’t a DT he is a NT. NT’s can be effective much later in their career’s. I am watching a 37 year old Pat Williams control the middle right now. Why would Rogers be any different?
Let us say that Rogers stops rushing the passer and just becomes a massive fat guy stopping the run in 5 years. What is the difference in that and what Rubin gives us right now?
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 24, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
I am not saying he will not be good. I am just saying that his value will likely drop in the next couple of years. Honestly, I think he is a very good player and will still be effective but I don’t know how many more years he has left being as effective as he was in ’08…
but you are right, if he can just clog things up I wouldn’t mind.
i apologize in advance if i’m wrong, but weren’t you the one who said statistics for NTs don’t matter?
You are reading my signature.
My overall thought here is having long-term vision with the team and its drafting, not just working this season. For me, this vision is an outstanding defense, outstanding OL which can create opportunity for the running game and QB maturation, and finally a stellar ST. You then draft accordingly, using personnel and trading up to make even strong areas of your team stronger in these focal areas.
My point in bringing up a possible Rogers trade is that he is one of the few players on this team who can get us a real return. He also happens to have been injured just enough for us to picture what life without him could look like on this team. Unless you think we’re suddenly going to contend and could end up winning the division, shouldn’t we be looking at the mid-to-long-term with this team? As good as Rogers is, how much longer will her dominate? How good could Haden become?
You mention that there is no such thing as a shutdown CB. I’ll say this is just semantics. We’re dealing with humans here, everyone makes mistakes and miss plays they should make – whether they be a All-Pro NT or shutdown CB. We have a theoretical opportunity here to lay the foundations for a great secondary.
I just think that over the next 3 years, Rogers might do us more good if he’s wearing another team’s uniform.
I just wanted to believe.
As good as Rogers is, how much longer will her dominate? How good could Haden become?
These are two huge questions that no one could possibly answer definitively. I think Rogers can be as dominant for another 4-5 years. He could probably be a run stuffer who is hard to move (essentially what Rubin is now) until he is 38-40. He could absolutely still be effective for us in a future season when we could expect to contend for the playoffs.
Haden could be the next Charles Woodson, or he could be the next DeAngelo Hall. I think he will be a good player in the NFL, a #1 CB, but not a pro bowler.
You mention that there is no such thing as a shutdown CB. I’ll say this is just semantics.
No, I am really trying to say something meaningful about the amount of human beings who are able to do the things required of a NT vs a CB, and the impact of those players on a football game.
NTs are a part of every play, run or pass. By nature of their position, they impact the game more than any DB. If you have the choice between a DL and DB of equal talent, age, character, likelihood of injury, etc., you always take the DL. Of course all players make the occasional mistake. That doesn’t change the fact that DL make more of an impact than DBs.
Additionally, due to the nature of the positions, there are fewer elite NT/DTs than there are elite CBs. There just aren’t that many guys that big. I think if we lined up the #1 CB in the NFL all the way to the #32 CB, there would be a gradual dropoff in talent from 1-32. I think if we lined up all ofthe NTs from 1-32, there would be a huge dropoff in talent at some point. NT, like LOT, is a position that is simply harder to fill.
I just think that over the next 3 years, Rogers might do us more good if he’s wearing another team’s uniform.
I think this is possible. But, if it were me, it would take more than just Haden to make the move. Maybe Holmgren and Heckert know something I don’t, and I trust them if they do end up making the move you suggest. I just wouldn’t make the move.
I think haden has more of a chance though at being charles woodsen than deangelo hall…
Just pointing it out (although I do agree with you on a lot). his skill set is very similar to woodsen’s (great speed, superb tackler, makes plays and good hands)
Hall had the ability to do all of those things well too. He had a season or two where he was playing at a really high level. Then he decided not to care anymore and has sucked since.
Not saying Haden will follow that path, but even guys as talented as him have to continuously work to sniff the level of Nnamdi or Bailey.
i do agree about that.
I am not completely in agreement on hall. I just don’t remember him being that great at stopping the run, but I could be mistaken
One thing that does worry a bit is I heard from a source that joe haden occasionally takes plays off. this is somewhat of a red flag and if this is actually true, could be a warning sign that he won’t be Nnamdi or Bailey
It might be true, I haven’t heard anything about that though. I am just saying that even what seem like the hardest working guys or the surest things don’t always work out, that’s all.
Haden seems like a good kid, and I hope we can get him or someone as talented in our Dbackfield, we need someone that good. I’m just saying with Rogers we know exactly what kind of talent he is, and with anyone in the draft, we really don’t.
I would trade Shaun Rogers for maybe 5 CB’s in the NFL. (Revis, Nnamdi, Rogers-Cromartie, and Finnegan)
Rogers is one of a kind. Maybe Haden becomes a premier CB, but I am not willing to trade the best NT in the NFL on a “maybe”.
As for Rogers free lancing, it is on our coaching staff to do one of two things.
1. Get Rogers to play in the system.
2. Adapt the system into using Rogers strengths.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 24, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
I totally agree.
the arguments made about this are completely fallacious in many ways
Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (correlation must be causation)…or A occurred, then B occurred. Therefore, A caused B.
False Dichotomy fallacy
Base rate fallacy (not using all the evidence and ignoring the good rushing teams the browns faced when rogers was in)
The way you pointed out the fallacies makes you mooncamping – ish due to the fact that that mess of a comment made absolutely no damn sense.
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 25, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was just pointing out the fallacies people have used when trying to diss shaun rogers. I should have been more clear at the beginning about what I was talking about…
but if you add that at the beginning, it does make sense.
don’t worry you’ve been much better lately, most people here don’t have a problem with you.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
that was meant to be under golanbatrac’s comment
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
Golan, you need to stop this right now. You’re acting like a little baby. Posting the same thing over and over again when it’s already been deleted many times is just childish. If you know that it’s in violation then why continue posting it, other than to annoy me and Chris?
When one comment gets deleted then all replies also get deleted, even if there is nothing improper about them. That’s the way the formatting works. Stop whining and grow up.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 28, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
You’re acting like a little baby.
Personal attack. If I were bross, your post would have already been flagged and deleted. I’m not bross though, so feel free to let your attack stand.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Just stop already. I have no idea what you’re trying to prove, but you need to grow up. I have better things to do then check up on you all the time to make sure you’re not posting any more vulgar words.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 28, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
I already said that I wasn’t going to stop. You could read all about it, but that post (which didn’t violate the terms of service) disappeared this morning.
I have better things to do then check up on you all the time
Easy solution: quit checking up on me.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
You could read all about it, but that post (which didn’t violate the terms of service) disappeared this morning.
Being utterly confused, I’d rather like to be able to do that. Oh well.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jan 28, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
First of all, I’m the moderator so it’s my job to monitor the comments. Secondly, as I already told you, if a post which didn’t contain any bad language was deleted it’s because it was in response to a post which did and when a comment gets deleted all the responses go with it. That’s the way the blog is formatted and nobody can change it. Many people have had their perfectly fine comments deleted because of this so I have no idea why you’re going off the deep end about it.
If you continue to act like this then we’re going to ban you because I’m not putting up with this crap any more. Just shut up and stop using cuss words and I’ll stop deleting your comments.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 28, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
Go for it. Make it a permanent ban. If it’s temporary, I’ll start right back up just as soon as I’m live again.
Arbitrary post deletion is my limit. I’m not going to put up with it.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Jan 28, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
What is arbitrary about deleting posts that contain foul language? That will not be tolerated no matter who posts it. Why is that so hard to accept? Nobody else has a problem with it.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 28, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
A quick browser search of the three parts of this draft thread for a few common ‘cuss words’ shows 31 instances.
The only use of the word ‘fuck’ was by betsy, who when not using the word himself is busy pretending to be oh-so sensitive to the ‘f-bomb’ and flagging my posts.
Thirty one instances of vulgarity allowed to stand, yet my posts continue to disappear. Arbitrary.
(And that wasn’t even a thorough search - doesn’t include f-k and f__k and other masked words which are no less vulgar than the words themselves, yet are always allowed to stand, or the many personal attacks that are much more difficult to search for after the fact, yet are almost always allowed to stand.)
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Jan 28, 2010 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously, bross, just let it go. You’re only feeding him. Please ignore him because as you can see I’m taking care of it. Your constant responses aren’t helping.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 29, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
My gosh, bross, do you ever learn? I asked you to just ingore him, yet you kept responding to his comments. Why? Did you really think that was going to do any good? I said that I was taking care of it and for you to leave this alone.
Seriously, you’ve got to learn when to just let things go. This is why people get so mad at you sometimes. You don’t need to respond to every comment, especially when someone is acting like an idiot. Just let it go and move on.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 29, 2010 6:31 AM EST up reply actions
Chris and I cannot be everywhere on this site at all times and sometimes things slip by us. We’re not perfect. But also the context in which the word was used is also relevant, and calling someone else a vulgar name will not be allowed under any circumstances, by you or anyone else. Personal attacks are hard to define and rarely deleted. I usually just ask people to stop and they do. Your behavior is completely uncalled for.
The problem is that are repeatedly using the same word after I have asked you to stop and deleted it many times. I’m not going to continue doing this. I don’t want to ban you, but if you continue to blatantly disregard the rules then I am forced to take such measures. Nobody else in the two years that I’ve been doing this has every acted this immaturely when I’ve deleted their comments or asked them to stop. I have no idea what your problem is but you need to stop this nonsense.
You need to start taking responsiblity for your actions and quit blaming everyone else. Stop posting the word that I keep deleting and let this go and you’ll be fine. But if you continue this blatant disregard for our rules then you will lose the priviledge of posting on this site.
I’m not doing this any more. This is your last warning.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 29, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
Dude, deleting a one-word comment with only a cuss word (and coming from an intelligent guy who has to know it is one of the most hated cuss words out there, and not just something like “damn” “hell” or “crap”) is not at all arbitrary.
I think I deleted that one. I’ve only used the moderating button a couple times, but that was pretty obvious.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
Well, I deleted it about 7 or 8 times, because he kept posting it every time he posted a comment. Which is why he is now banned.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 30, 2010 8:23 AM EST up reply actions
sucks that it had to come to that, I can’t believe he blew up like that.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2010 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed. I could see maybe posting relevant cuss words at times when they are warranted, but he probably knew he was asking to get banned with the whole one-word tirade.
Sucks to lose him cause when he wasn’t doing that, he had some good things to say.
Yup. I didn’t want to do it, and gave him many chances to let it go and move on, but in the end he was practically begging me to ban him. I enjoyed having him on this blog and I’m really sorry that it had to come to this. But I couldn’t let that continue forever, and he wasn’t going to stop.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 30, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Permanently.
And I’m pretty sure his IP is banned right? Not just the screen name?
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 30, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
If someone registers another screen name using the same IP then we can tell.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 30, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
bross, you don’t need to use big words to show everyone how smart you are.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 25, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You are suggesting to take Berry at 7 and then get another 1st round pick for Rogers to select Haden, right? I don’t really consider that “trading up”. Berry and Haden sounds like a pretty good 1st round to me, though.
The Ravens went against the grain, too, and lost early in the playoffs. The Raiders are always against the grain, and an awful franchise. The Jets are getting pretty lucky. 3 missed FGs by San Diego, any one of which could have cost them that game? 9-7 record barely squeaking them in to the playoffs after their own coach thought they were mathematically eliminated? That isn’t to say that a team can’t still win by running and playing defense, just that simply doing something different doesn’t win games. You have to do something extremely well to get that deep in the playoffs. If that’s running and defense for us, pass me a brown sweater vest.
Also, I thought groupthink only applied when the group was making decisions as a unit? Each NFL team makes decisions on its own about how to structure their team, and are all in competition with one another…does that qualify? I totally agree that thoughts, philosophies, draft/team-building strategies are “inbred” and that the NFL is a “copycat league”, just wondering about the appropriate use of “groupthink”.
My interpretation of groupthink also includes more of a mob think where everyone pursues the same type of plan. In a copycat league like the NFL – everyone pursues the same type of plan if it’s had success. Everyone seems to think that you have to have a franchise QB who’ll establish himself immediately (at least within a season) otherwise you should draft a new one. I say build a line and a running game while you let someone ( who you were high enough on a few years ago to trade up for) develop. Until we have a solid line and other options, we’ll never have some franchise QB just come out of now where as if a gift from heaven.
I just wanted to believe.
Until we have a solid line and other options, we’ll never have some franchise QB just come out of now where as if a gift from heaven.
Also, drafting a QB would not mean one coming from nowhere, obviously. Silly statement.
I am willing to bet as much as I don’t like it if one of the Big QB’s as in Clausen,McCoy or Bradford is still on the board at #7 one of them will be are pick. I very much don’t like any of them but the way it looks are QB’s are bad and Holmgren likes good a good QB.
So I could see us signing Hasselbeck for a stop gap and draft a young QB to sit behind him for one year.I know “it won’t happen” crowd will yell but do not be shocked if it happens
by Brownsfan4ever on Jan 24, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, agreed it was a silly statement – or at least poorly put. My excuse is that I was watching the Colts-Jets game at them moment.
That said, while I like our line – especially from the center to the left – the right side can be improved. My general contention is that we should not draft a QB in the first round. Heck, I would say that a QB should never be the first round pick on a team. But then I’m probably just making silly statements again.
Even further, I think if given an opportunity Quinn could develop into a serviceable QB for the next few years. Silly statements abound!
I just wanted to believe.
Heck, I would say that a QB should never be the first round pick on a team.
This is very silly. Where do most good-to-elite QBs come from? Also: draft position does have some bearing on success, and not just because of opportunity.
Our line is phenomenal at run blocking, which you seem to want to be our strength. Why would you waste draft picks trying to get starters on the right side when we could spend them elsewhere? I think a RT would really help our pass pro, but even our pass pro was good-to-very good at the end of the year.
I think Quinn could be serviceable, too, especially if we gave him all of the reps, Daboll got some tutelage from Holmgren in the passing game, someone stepped up at WR and we continued to run like we did at the end of the year.
I wouldn’t model my team after the Jets. They were a .500 team that had every break in the world to sneak into the playoffs. They played pretty well to get to the AFC Championship game and then got destroyed.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
Well, in fairness to that team, they have a rookie QB starting. I don’t much like the Sanchise as a QB, but it’s possible he takes a significant leap forward in the next few years. If they manage to keep the defense and run game in tact with that kind of improvement out of the QB, and they could be… the Vikings.
Also, their WRs are not good. And I think they could stand to add talent to their defense, as scary as that sounds. Rex Ryan is getting a lot out of what he has.
If they got a couple of young, talented WRs and another stud or two in that front 7, they could be a force. (Assuming Sanchez grows as a QB).
Yes, true. Really, though, I think Sanchez is a limited QB. He’ll get better, but I’m not sure he’ll ever be good. I think he’ll limit their growth.
Even more so since having Edwards on the field reduces the number of receivers he can throw to.
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 26, 2010 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That’s the way Jesus wanted it.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 25, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Anyone have any more info on O’Brien Schofield from Wisconsin?
I only saw two-three Wisconsin games this season and the kid always seemed to jump off the screen to me. He is 6-2 240lbs and played with his hand down at UW.
Could be a late pickup that I would love. Anybody have a better scouting report on him?
Wow. Just found out that he tore his ACL this season.
I would still take this kid late (6th-7th round) and stash him on IR for the season.
That is some horrible luck though, from what I am reading he was shooting up draft boards.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 26, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
I was just about to write that I liked him in the Shrine Game.
He looked really good against OSU, too. As a mid-late rounder, I’d pull the trigger on him.
Tore his ACL this morning.
Bummer. Still would take him late and stash him.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 26, 2010 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
Ouch. That’s tough luck. He could probably play a good chunk of the season next year, but he wouldn’t be back to what he was.
We could draft him and stash him on the PUP list, and after week 6, if he isn’t ready, IR him.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 26, 2010 2:05 AM EST up reply actions
A USC tackle was just elected to the All-American tea by the name of Charles Brown. What’s the word on this kid? Is a RT, and is he a viable second day option?
I think he is a little undersized, but quick. Sounds like a guy who should be in a zone blocking system to me.
Which one do the Browns use? I couldn’t tell when I was watching. I thought they used a zone system, but I’m probably wrong…
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 27, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
Our running plays looked like mostly man blocks toward the end of the year. As for pass plays, I would think a pro team would use at least some zone, but I think it would be safe to say we do not employ “the zone blocking system” (i.e. Denver under Shannahan).
I say that based on Mangini’s stated preference for larger OL, and remembering a lot of pulls, which usually indicates man blocking. But I haven’t looked at the tape in a while, and some teams (Colts) actually run the zone plays with some of the OL pulling, so I could be wrong.
If Haden and Berry isn’t available and the regime doesn’t want a QB, I wouldn’t be opposed to trading down and snagging Brandon Ghee and Iupati if its possible. I kinda feel like he’s a better pick late in the first than Haden that early.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 28, 2010 4:57 PM EST reply actions
If Iupati was showing he could play RT, I would have no problem trying to trade down to get him instead of taking Haden high. I want Berry.
Ghee is not worth it in the 1st at this point. Not even close. Mid 2nd or later, maybe. I still prefer to draft CBs who go through workouts well enough to be considered in the back half of the 1st/early 2nd.
If Haden and Berry are gone? Tell you the truth, I’m starting to buy into the McClain policy. I’m starting to like this CB from Boise (can’t remember the name) so getting Haden wouldn’t be an absolute must if we miss out on Berry.
Actually, if we miss out on Berry, and get McClain then at least we can get Boise kid and Coleman in later rounds. I was shocked when I heard Coleman’s currently projected as a late 3’rd to 4’th rounder.
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 28, 2010 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. I like kyle wilson too. He could be a good 2nd-3rd rounder. he has good speed and great cover skills. the only knock is that he is like 5’10" and isn’t an amazing leaper (from what I have heard). he can still contest balls and has good instincts. I also like trevard lindley from Kentucky.
Height is pretty far down my list of characteristics that I want in a CB. If he can move like Scandrick, I’ll take him.
I still don’t think you can hold out hope for one or two specific players later in the draft. That’s how you end up falling in love with a guy and trading up when it isn’t worth it. Let the chips fall where they may, and if you are passing up decent CBs or FSs, just make sure you get someone good somewhere else.
I agree height doesn’t matter. I don’t mind the height but scouts do mind. It is one of the reasons he may drop, that is all.
I think guys like that who drop are good value picks, and one of the reasons I think you can find good pro CBs in the 2nd round.
Still, I don’t think 5’10" is a big concern for scouts. In fact, I would think that’s <1" below average in the NFL. I don’t trust the measurements till the combine, though.
If he drops because of height, that’s just a bigger pool of talent available to us.
Iupati has the physical dominance to be great at RT, and Ghee and Kyle Wilson have been dominating the senior bowl this year. I’m not sure the difference between them and Haden is that great, if there is a separation at all. But trading down to mid-late first and grabbing Iupati and taking Ghee or Wilson in the second would be great.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 29, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
The difference in talent is probably not substantial, but we need a corner a lot worse than we need offensive line help. The difference between Haden and Mcdonald could be much greater than the difference between Iupati and Hadnot/St. Clair/Pork Chop.
While this is all true, we can get decent CBs from anywhere. We shouldn’t be looking for “decent” in the first two rounds where we are picking. We can upgrade over McDonald in free agency, probably even with people cut during training camp.
We’ve got to find a corner somewhere, but we also almost have to go BPA.
I hear that, but that’s also a remnant of the fear we had after the Bentley/Shaffer signings. Thomas and Steinbach are paid well, but Mack doesn’t make all that much and there’s not really any long term money on the right side. If Haden and Berry are gone, that probably means one of the top flight OTs is available. I wouldn’t be horrified of the thought of taking one and having elite talent at 4 of 5 spots on the line. It would be a fairly unique build, but if the alternative is taking a RB, reaching, or taking poor value to trade down, then maybe it would be the best option.
We could do some damage in the trenches.
I’d probably take the bad value in trading down. There is a huge difference between the money we will have to pay #7 and the money we paid Mack. People might reach for OTs but not so bad that we couldn’t get a very good lineman after we traded down.
Okung is the only guy worth a top 10 pick in this draft at OT, IMO, and I don’t think he can hold up at RT. Someone will probably take the chance and reach for Davis because he is a physical freak. The guys I like at RT who are first round prospects are Bulaga and Campbell, and Iupati would probably command less money and be available later because he is a guard (although the better player IMO). I think it would be safe to count on one of those three being there in the late teens.
I don’t think Haden is merely decent, and I also don’t think it’s that often that good corners hit the free agency market without getting massive paydays.
We don’t need someone “good” to upgrade over McDonald. I think that we could find an upgrade over McDonald with the extra #2 pick we’d pick up in a trade back for Iupati, although that player might not ever develop into a true #1 CB. This would fill our need and get us a great player.
You are correct that guys who can be #1 CBs don’t often hit FA without a huge payday. We would have to at least Nate Clements a guy and provide the appearance of a huge contract.
I still want to see how the draft preseason works out for Haden, as I think it is quite relevant to CBs. Much moreso than other positions, anyway.
After/during this Senior Bowl, I really think Iupati is heads and shoulders above any guard prospect in not only this draft, but last year’s too. Maybe the year before, but I forget who came out then. I don’t think I would say the same about Haden.
Honestly, I wouldn’t mind either course of action. Still holding out some hope for Berry, though.
First of all, if you are going to put so much stock in the senior bowl, Iupati was struggling there when they put him at RT. So either Ghee and Wilson’s performances don’t count as much or Iupati’s lack of performance does.
Also, Iupati asked to be moved back inside. This should throw up some kind of red flag for us. This time of year, at least, all draft prospects should be looking to do any and everything to look competitive, hungry, and willing to do whatever the coaches ask. This would mean staying at RT, getting pissed he wasn’t getting it, and working his tail off to stay there like the coaches asked, even if he felt he was struggling.
Third, I want to see Ghee and Wilson run.
Mangini does value flexibility after all.
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
Flexibility yes but brains seems to be higher on his list. He likes players smart enough to see and react, to learn from their mistakes. Weren’t all of our higher round picks last year a high GPA people?
Maybe we need to be looking at the GPA of some of the players we are wanting.
He apparently did look like the best player at the senior bowl when he was playing guard
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 30, 2010 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
“First of all, if you are going to put so much stock in the senior bowl, Iupati was struggling there when they put him at RT. So either Ghee and Wilson’s performances don’t count as much or Iupati’s lack of performance does.”
If I were to draft Iupati it would be as a Guard, with the added flexibility to play RT. So I’ll take it that Wilson, and Iupati dominated at their respective position throughout the senior bowl. Fair?
And the two CB’s were said to have been able to keep up with Jacoby Ford who is probably the fastest WR at the Senior Bowl. That’s good enough for me,
by The Licensed Pessimist on Feb 1, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
If I were to draft Iupati it would be as a Guard, with the added flexibility to play RT.
He has the tools to play RT, but he does not have the flexibility to play RT right now. The concern about him asking to move back inside is that he will never develop that flexibility because he doesn’t have that desire. So while he has the “physical dominance to play RT” there is now reason to question whether he will actually be able to become a great/capable RT.
So I’ll take it that Wilson, and Iupati dominated at their respective position throughout the senior bowl. Fair?
Yes, except for when Iupati got beat by Atkins during the game. They both looked good in that environment. Iupati looked bad at RT in that environment, as I have already stated. At Guard, he looked very good. I wouldn’t say Wilson dominated the way Iupati did, but he was good.
And the two CB’s were said to have been able to keep up with Jacoby Ford who is probably the fastest WR at the Senior Bowl.
In the game, teams were forced to play MOFC coverage, so they played a ton of Cover-3. In a cover-3 zone, they can start 7-8 yards+ over the WR, so they sure as hell better be able to keep up with them if they want to play in the NFL. If you read this about practices where they had to bump him and then turn and run with him for 40+ yards, then that is more impressive. Is McCluster really not faster than Ford?
Brandon Graham. Please.
Good character, very high motor, good enough speed to play OLB, good pass rusher, stout against the run. Could stand to loosen hips and get more flexible, but he reminds me a lot of Woodley (which seems a bit too easy because they both went to michigan), who I also thought was stiff for a 3-4 backer.
He’d be a great 2nd round pick IMO.
Graham has shown some great flashes. I wish we had three 2nd rounders like last year.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 29, 2010 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Players like Graham are an example of the genius behind the Patriots’ theory of stockpiling 2nd rounders.
I am actually in the middle of explaining this theory.
I have been working on it for about two weeks now. Should have a post on it in the next week or so.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 30, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
I still think he would be much better as a DE.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 30, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
I totally agree. I didn’t even notice that you made this comparison.
Even without the michigan connection, I would still say they were similar players. they are both slightly shorter than the average DE/OLB (6 foot 2 compared to 6’4’’-6’5’’). they are bulkier than the speed rushers like ricky sapp (265 pounds compared to 248). they don’t have elite speed (both were supposedly timed in the 4.7 range) but have a great initial burst and explosion and have a very high motor. Both have a nose for the ball and make plays
Basically they have the same body type, same skill set, and same style of play, except honestly, looking at the stats I think graham might end up being better. He had 6 more career sacks in a similar amount of games played (he played about 2 more). he also made a ridiculous amount of TFLs (including a ridiculous 25 this year). I think graham has even more of a playmaking instinct than woodley.
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but a number of mock drafts have the Washington Redskins taking Sam Bradford with their first round pick. Interestingly though, Sam Bradford is part Indian. Not sure if this would create any type of controversy, as the Indian community has really rallied behind him, similarly to how the Mexican community rallied behind Mark Sanchez last year.
Watching the Senior Bowl:
Brandon Graham is for real. Hopefully he runs poorly at the combine and falls to us in the 2nd.
DT Neal from Purdue could proably play DE for us, he looks good. There are a lot of stout college DTs who we could give a look at DE in this draft. There are a lot of potential 3-4 DL in this draft, these guys might be good value pickups for us later in the draft. I like the DT from Tennessee too.
I think the OT Black from LSU has been labeled “overrated” for so long he is now underrated.
Mardy Gilyard’s speed translates to the NFL, IMO. I don’t know what kind of 40 he will run, but he can move.
Geno Atkins beat Iupati. He has a lot of potential but is inconsistent.
Taylor Mays actually made a play in coverage.
The OT from VaTech might be worth a look at RT for us. They are passing most of the game so far, and he has done well on the left side, although I don’t know if I would trust him on the left if I were a team, but he is good enough to be an upgrade in pass pro on our right side. I’d like to see him run block a little.
Ed Wang? People at Mockingthedraft have him going 6th or 7th.
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
I don’t think Wang is enough of a mauler to play RT.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 30, 2010 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
If he was that good at run blocking, I am sure he would go early in the draft. Who is going to be left in the 5th+ rounds who looks like they are good at everything you will ask them to do?
Can he maul more than St. Clair?
John Jerry and Mitch Petrus are both good, but should go in the 4th.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 30, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
those guys are really guards. Jerry is a great guard but he is very slow and immobile, even for a guard. not only does that mean he would not be able to pull well, but I would not trust him at all on the right flank. he needs guys next to him and he cannot face a speed rusher. he would be a turnstile there just like St. Clair was.
Petrus does not look like a RT either. he is a guard, and undersized for a guard a little. he also isn’t super athletic. he might be adequate at RT but he has never played there.
If we are just talking RT, I like the pickup you made in the mock on mocking the draft when you got ciron black with the first pick in the third. the only knock I have ever seen is that he will never be able to protect the QBs blindside. besides that, he is a mauler (and LSU ran wild behind him), big at 322 pounds, athletic for his size, and is extremely durable. even though he isn’t a great pass blocker, he will still be less of a turnstile on the end than St. Clair was.
I think Black is the kind of guy we should be looking for at RT. Productive in college, falls in the draft due to lack of elite athleticism, still agile enough to play RT, and can be physical.
I totally agree. the only reason I am reading black is being rated low is because he will never be a Left tackle…we have joe thomas, we don’t care, he is mauling in the rung game, durable, athletic, and good enough as a pass blocker that he will still be better than st. clair.
on that website though that i saw sacks allowed, St. Clair allowed the most on the team…and didn’t play in all the games.
when it showed JT having 4 sacks, that was actually pretty good for a LT that started all 16 games. some other LTs that got around 4 and started all 16 games were Jake Long, Jason Peters, Marcus McNeill, and Max Starks. these guys are the best LTs in the leage.
when you play that posision, you go against the teams best pass rusher on every down. so 4 sacks a year isn’t horrible. but when st. clair plays on the right side and gives up 4.5 that isn’t good. a good player on the right side gives up around 2.5 or less…sometimes 3. the interior guys usually do not give up a lot of sacks b/c most sacks come from the edge…
but back to the point. Black at RT makes our line awesome.
Plus, I can remember that two of the sacks that JT got blamed for were totally on Anderson. Take that away and Thomas really had a great year.
"There is a small, but important difference between peeing in the pool and peeing into the pool." - Demitri Martin
yes. and he still had great numbers for an LT in sacks allowed. the average, middle of the pack LT that starts 16 games gives up about 7-8 that are his fault. the average on the right gives up maybe 4.5ish.
it is just the nature of the position. even walter jones in his prime would not be able to stop every single blindside rusher, every week, on every play, from getting to the QB. it is just hte fact that they would go up against the best player every down, every week, at getting to the QB. it is like trying to make a catch against Nnamdi Asomuga occasionally it happens b/c he can’t stop every team’s number 1 on every play, but he is still the best in the league at what he does.
I thank God for Joe Thomas. Maybe this is my bias speaking, but at the rate that he’s going, he could possibly go down as one of the top 5 Offensive Tackles of all time. Again, I have no problem showing my man-love for Joe Thomas.
"There is a small, but important difference between peeing in the pool and peeing into the pool." - Demitri Martin
Its a bias but he has started his career so damn well it definitely isn’t out of the question. however I would like to see another 4-5 healthy seasons of this performance or higher (because hopefully he gets better b/c he is not definitely the top tackle in the league right now, but you could make a good case for it). that would be about 8 years as an elite player. then we can definitely consider it.
I don’t disagree with you. I think at this rate it is entirely possible and if he keeps improving, definitely, but we cannot say for certain yet.
Top 5 of All Time or not, Joe Thomas is awesome.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Feb 4, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
not even going to deny that. no matter what my comment is, JT is my favorite player, i just wanted to be realistic. There is just some quality with him that I love. Just that good ol’ midwestern humble attitude. He reminds me a lot in attitude to Thome (except hopefully we keep him his whole career b/c he has said he wants to stay).
on the subject of thome, I read some sort of article where one of the main reasons he wasn’t back was b/c the indians were rebuilding and really didn’t want him back b/c he didn’t fit in (and he didn’t want to be on a rebuilding club).
Not quite sure how you can say that he is definitely not the top tackle in the league right now. In my book, and this may be a bias again, he is the best at his position across the league.
If he’s not number one, then who is?
Some would be quick to consider Ryan Clady here, but I think he falls short in comparison to JT. Thomas goes up against the Ravens and the Steelers a combined 25% of the season, Clady gets the terribly intimidating pass rushes of the Chargers, Chiefs and the Raiders 6 games a year. Don’t think so.
Jason Peters…maybe, but I would still rather have JT.
"There is a small, but important difference between peeing in the pool and peeing into the pool." - Demitri Martin
I would probably say if I had to put money on the subject i would probably put it on him being the best LT in the league. the problem is that there are not a ton of stats out there to judge LTs and a lot of teams these days have elite ones. It is just hard to say for certain but I do believe (even without my bias) he may be the best.
Yeah, it’s hard with almost no stats on the offensive linemen. But here’s what I go by, flawed as it may be:
Jared Allen (easily one of the top DE’s in the game) was completely shut down by Joe Thomas in game 1 of this season. A guy who had nearly 15 sacks this past season, and he didn’t even sniff one against JT. Sorry, I get carried away.
You’re right, besides the fact that he’s such a great player, there is something completely likeable about the guy.
"There is a small, but important difference between peeing in the pool and peeing into the pool." - Demitri Martin
I agree with that. the case may be made for long but even without my cleveland bias, I still might say thomas (although long is more complete since he is a better run blocker from what I have seen)
The interesting thing is there is not that one elite guy anymore. when thomas came into the league there were the big 3. Ogden, Pace, and Jones. Pace was still a good player and Ogden and Jones both were all pro that year. since then, pace has been on a rapid decline, Ogden retired, and jones has slowly been going down the path pace went down. there was also Tarik Glenn (who was in the league i believe when thomas was drafted but soon after retired).
Now, there is not that definite elite tackle. those guys were all drafted around the same time (3 in the ‘97 draft and one in the ’96). no one has truly made a name for themselves since then. D’Brickishaw at one point was supposed to be the guy but really hasn’t that one guy (until thomas was drafted) that has really played at that caliber.
I think ‘07 and ’08 will go down in history like ’96 and ’97 did for LTs. you have ryan clady, Jake Long, tony Ugoh, and Joe Thomas. between those 4 guys you have 10 seasons played and 6 pro bowls (ugoh still hasn’t made one but has been good). then you can even throw oher in and this could get epic in 5 years or so.
Jerry is not slow for a guard. He played tackle at Ole Miss.
Petrus is 314 and has played Fullback, tight end, and guard. That seems athletic.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 31, 2010 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
This is just what I have seen and read about each one.
Jerry did get beat sometimes and would have guys blow by him. He also didn’t pull that well.
Petrus has above average athleticism for a RG but average to below average athleticism for his size. he is a little undersized. he doesn’t do one thing that great. he is solid in everything but also does not have elite size. with time, I think he could be a decent RT but he has never played the position before to my knowledge.
LeFevour is struggling. After this game, there’s no way Graham isn’t a first round pick. He’s owning everyone the South lines up against him.
The North is using a lot of 12 personnel (1 back, 2 bigs.) LeFevour is very uncomfortable throwing to the middle of the field to tight ends- everything is riding high. They ran a play-action out of an unbalanced set, and he was completely lost. He needed to sell the fake hard and come across to the weak side, but it was a poor fake and he got hit while he threw.
Maycock with an incredible stat: 32 out of 46 passes were less than ten yards in one game tape that Maycock viewed.
Javier Arenas is awesome. 5th round pick, I assume. Nickelback and special teams guy.
Jacoby Ford is James Davis Part 2.
LeGarrette Blount will be a steal for someone in the late rounds. If he didn’t punch that kid from Boise, he’d be a 2nd round pick.
I think of Arenas as more of a 3rd round guy.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 30, 2010 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
He might fall into the late second. I was doing a mock draft on my computer (which I will post soon and goes through the first 4 rounds so far) and I projected him near the end of the second. I wouldn’t take him honestly, especially since he is raw, but a team that doesn’t have a desperate need at the position wouldn’t mind.
somewhat. arenas his first year was a return specialist. he didn’t truly play corner consistently until a little ways into his junior year. he really has less than 2 years of experience at the position and from an instincts sense is still very raw. he is a great returner but still needs work as a CB. the physical skills are all there, he just needs to play consistent football. although he supposedly has excellent hands, he doesn’t get many INTs.
I wouldn’t mind taking Blount in the later rounds. We still need help at RB and he’s got talent. Just because he did something stupid doesn’t make him a bad person.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 31, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
Blount doesn’t take it well.
Punches Mangini.
Raiders take him in 2nd round because Al Davis heard he is a fighter.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 31, 2010 2:34 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
What are the odds on this actually happening?
by Chief WaDrew on Jan 31, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, of course. But if Mangini and Holmgren think that he’s learned from his mistake and won’t cause any more trouble than I’d have no problem drafting him. I’m sure the kid realizes that he has a lot to prove to people and will want to show that he’s more than just the player who punched an opponent after a game.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 31, 2010 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
He has been suspended twice before for not attending workouts and not following team rules, so it looks like a pattern to me, and i’d be skeptical about him really turning over a new leaf. maybe he has, but we better be damn sure.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 31, 2010 9:16 AM EST up reply actions
I would think that Holmgren and Mangini would adequately assess Blount. T
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
T?
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 31, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Dexter McCluster reminds me of Percy Harvin; I’m not sure where he fits. I thought Harvin would struggle at receiver and was wrong, but I still don’t like that type of athlete in the NFL.
Tebow just made a nice play. Fake pitch and got hit immediately but he got the throw off for a completion.
Larry Asante, remember the name Browns’ fans. Just caused a fumble from McCluster by sticking his helmet in his gut. I’d be surprised if it didn’t knock the wind out of him too.
Marty Gilyard is a player. He is excellent on vertical routes, likely because that’s all he ran at Cincinnati. The North is just better than the South. 24-13 right now.
I’m not a fan of LeFevour at all. Charles Scott and Maycock are but I don’t see it.
Gilyard will bust, he is small, has bad hands, and is a poor route runner.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 30, 2010 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
DeSean Jackson was a poor route runner with questionable hands. I see a kid who can get open. He doesn’t have Braylon hands. He can and will learn to run routes.
Gilyard’s speed is nothing compared to DeSean J
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 30, 2010 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
gilyard has very good playing speed. his timed speed isn’t great but he has great field speed. that being said, Jackson is faster. I would say jackson was a better prospect but gilyard isn’t bad in the mid-second. gilyard is skinny but he is 6’1’’ and has 3-4 inches on jackson.
I would say jackson was a better prospect but gilyard isn’t bad in the mid-second.
Interestingly enough, DeSean Jackson went 49th overall, right in the middle of the second.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 31, 2010 2:35 AM EST up reply actions
Look at the Senior Bowl measurements and weigh in.
by TheRealSlimShady on Feb 1, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
C’mon, even arguing against Gilyard you know that isn’t true.
Jackson is probably faster, but Gilyard can separate from NFL CBs with his raw athleticism. He gets separation, he gets open, he can run by guys in pads. Ted Ginn is faster than either of those guys, but just isn’t as good at getting open or using his speed.
Ben Tate from Auburn is a big back to watch in the middle rounds.
If Tebow wants to be a quarterback, he will be a 5th round pick. If he is willing to be an athlete, he could be a 3rd round pick. He just fumbled after being stripped. Way too many fundamental issues with him and not enough payoff. Why should a team draft him high and teach him when they can draft a similar guy with less fundamental issues?
Lefevour had a nice TD pass to Gilyard. 31-13 North.
If Brandon Graham falls to the Browns in the 2nd round, I will forgive him for going to Michigan. He has had the most impressive day by far.
Harry Coleman from LSU just took out a guy on the sideline. Impressive.
Myron Rolle sounds like a college professor in his interviews. Seriously, who else uses “pertinent” in their interview? Right after this conversation, the announcing team references Shylock from the Merchant of Venice. Not sure why, though.
Sideline announcer to Marty Gilyard: Nice catch over Gilbert Arenas (Really over Javier Arenas.)
Stafon Johnson sounds like Darth Vader now after his throat accident. He’s well-spoken still.
Ciron Black just lit up Sean Witherspoon on an interception return.
Sorry for clogging up the thread with all the posts, but I needed something to do while I wait on something.
P.S.- Brandam Graham named Senior Bowl MVP.
Don’t apologize. Us few who don’t have the NFL network can’t see it.
You and Rufio did a great job at adding in what you all were seeing.
Thanks to both.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 30, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeap thanks.
I do like Brandon Graham. Not with the 7th pick but if he’s there in the 2nd round, why not? Is he an OLB in a 3-4?
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
Yes he is a hybrid type.
Whenever I watched a scUM game, Graham flat out made plays.
He is one of those players that gets overlooked because he won’t run a blazing time and look awesome in his underwear. But when you put on some tape of the guy, he is just everywhere.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 30, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
he reminds me of woodley who was also from michigan. similar size, same school. they both don’t have blazing speed but they both have extremely high motors and just make plays.
Also, both look too stiff to be LBs when you just look at them, but they somehow move well enough on gameday.
I am really hoping Graham’s workout is dissappointing, that would be pretty much the only reason he wouldn’t be a 1st round pick.
I saw Myron Rolle on PTI this week and he sounds like a Mangini type of player. If we can’t get Berry I wouldn’t mind going after him later in the draft. Where is he projected to go?
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 31, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
I expect Rolle to shoot up draft boards once he kicks some of the rust off. I would not mind taking him in the 3rd at all. Absolutely a “Mangini guy”, and his intelligence seems to translate to the field pretty well.
I am not a big Rolle guy. He was a top 10 recruit entering college, but never really did much and has lived off of that reputation since to keep his draft stock intact. Part of the reason he chose the Rhodes Scholarship was that his NFL prospects were slipping quick.
I also think he plans on receiving his masters before playing in the NFL and also doing charity work in Africa I think. Can a player be drafted in the NFL and withhold for that long?
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 31, 2010 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
I never heard that. I would guess that he would do all that after his NFL career is over, since he has a very short window to play in the NFL and the rest of his life to do that other stuff. If he didn’t plan on playing in the NFL this coming season then I don’t think he would enter the draft, because if a player is drafted and doesn’t sign with that team then he is eligible for the draft next season. So no team would draft him if he wasn’t going to play this season.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 31, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Nevermind. He’s already taken his year off for school and his backup is to open a clinic in the Bahamas if the NFL doesn’t work out.
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 31, 2010 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
I think the big concern is his commitment to football. His reactions and readings of what the offense is trying to do reminds me a lot of DQ. He won’t be the physical freak that Mays is speed-wide, but he is about as big, more fluid, and makes more plays.
I really think he quieted a lot of the concerns about interest in football at the Senior Bowl. McShay was raving about how he must have found time to work out at Oxford because he was in good shape and showed football and academics aren’t mutually exclusive. If he could convince Mangini and Holmgren that he was serious about football, I wouldn’t be worried about it.
two hours a day working out and running on the rugby pitch at Oxford, according to his PTI interview.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
Yup. That’s commitment. He’s obviously serious about playing in the NFL.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 31, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
“Florida quarterback Tim Tebow, meanwhile, had a shaky outing running a pro-style offense against a sturdy defense. He fumbled twice and finished 8 of 12 passing for 50 yards in the showcase for senior NFL prospects.”
Shocking.
As he should be. He is not going to be a good quarterback in the NFL. I’m not saying this because I can’t stand Tebow, either.
He talks about having worked on his footwork and mechanics, but both were still bad, at least in the first half and all of the replays of practice that I saw.
He still brings the ball below his waist when he winds up to throw. I know he’s probably only been really working on it for one week, but his motion does not look good right now.
I kinda hope the Raiders draft him in the first.
I kinda hope the Raiders draft him in the first.
What’s his 40?
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 30, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
I bet Terrance Cody posts a DNF on his 40 time.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 31, 2010 8:56 PM EST reply actions
That dude is too freaking massive. I can’t believe he didn’t bother watching his weight after the season ended.
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
Soon I’ll post up my results from our mock draft over at mockingthedraft.
by TheRealSlimShady on Feb 1, 2010 7:23 PM EST reply actions
Walterfootball.com updated his mock today.
1st round: Joe Haden CB
2nd round: Corey Wootton DE/DT
3rd round: Tony Pike QB (Noooo. But the description says that his accuracy and intelligence would be a good fit for the WCO.), Reshad Jones S (…Who?)
4th round: Ciron Black OT
The guy over there that writes for the main mocks is rather annoying. Very condescending when it comes to his opinion on drafting QBs.
I agree with this draft except for Pike. I honestly doubt black will fall that far, but if he does, I would love it. Reshad jones is a safety from georgia who has good size and good speed. he is projected to go in the 2nd or 3rd rounds in most drafts. he is a good tackler, has decent hands, and can play the run. He could definitely start at safety IMO in week 1. I saw a report that said he would be a better college player than pro player (especially since he was on a bad D and was picked apart b/c of it). that sounds good since he averaged 4 INTs and 70 tackles a yr as a starter. He is a nice pickup there.
I disagree on pike though.
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