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Around SBN: The Amateur Mathematics Of Linsanity

A Look Back: 2001 NFL Draft

Sigh.

Large_butch-davis-cleveland-browns-01_medium

Expansion Browns, take 2.

Star-divide

In case you missed them, here are 1999 and 2000.

Two seasons back and the Browns had five combined wins.  It was past the honeymoon stage, and the natives were getting restless.  On January 11th, Chris Palmer was fired as the Head Coach of the Cleveland Browns.  Looking back on it, Palmer was given chicken sh*t and asked to make wedding cake.  I don't think that Paul Brown himself would have gotten more than 5 wins out of those teams, the talent just wasn't there.  

It took some time, but the Browns decided on hiring Butch Davis, the HC at the University of Miami.  I have watched a good amount of football, but I have never, and probably will never again, see the amount of talent that Miami had on their football team under Butch Davis.  Look at this roster that Davis left in Miami.  Their running backs were Clinton Portis, Frank Gore, Willis McGahee and Najeah Davenport!  Their defensive backfield was Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, Antrell Rolle, Kelly Jennings, Phillip Buchannon, and Mike Rumph all first rounders!  The fact that Larry Coker only won ONE national title says a lot about him. [Don't forget mad love for the Silver Bullets]

Dwight Clark was kept on as GM, but it would quickly become known that he would have little to no power.  The defacto GM would be Davis himself and his own personal do-bitch, Pete Garcia whom he brought in from Miami.  Davis was hired late in the game and didn't have much time to prepare for the upcoming draft.  

But who cares?  We had the greatest evaluator of talent that football had seen in the past 25 years!  He was Vince Lombardi and Ron Wolf rolled into one!  The Cleveland Browns had their newest great architect for the new decade and it was only a matter of time before we were printing Super Bowl memorabilia.  

3rd Pick, 1st Round, 3rd Overall: Gerard Warren, DT University of Florida

In the book False Start, author Terry Pluto gave some awesome insight to the Browns thinking leading up to the draft.  The previous regime was in love with Texas Christian University Running Back LaDainian Tomlinson and would have been the pick if Palmer wasn't fired.

But even with holdover GM Dwight Clark, this was the Butch Davis show.  Davis had three players on his board, two defensive and one offensive.  The offensive player wasn't LT, it was University of Michigan WR David Terrell.  Terrell was a huge bust in Chicago and would have done the same here.  His two defensive candidates were Richard Seymour and Gerard Warren.

The scouts loved Seymour.  He was a high motor guy that could play numerous positions on the defensive line.  He didn't have anything that he did poorly and he was strong.  He lead a good UGA team in TFL and had zero personal questions.  Seymour was a two time All SEC including '99 in front of Warren.

Warren on the other hand was somewhat of a wildcard.  At times he flashed amazing potential and was unblockable.  He gave himself the nickname of "Big Money" at the University of Florida because he was destined to be a star.  His motor was a question mark and his work ethic was even more so of one.

Leading up to the draft, Davis, Garcia and Clark agreed that if he was there at pick number three, Richard Seymour would be the Cleveland Browns number one pick in 2001.

Morning of the draft, Davis had a change of heart.  No one but Davis knows why.  Some think it was because Davis recruited Warren to Miami but lost out to UF and he now had a shot at hooking the one that got away.  No matter the reason, it was Butch's call and he chose "Big Money" Warren.

Warren had a disappointing career in Cleveland.  He had decent stats (16.5 sacks in Cleveland), but Warren always let me wanting for more.  It seemed that in every game, Warren would have a string of 4-5 plays where he was just destroying the interior of the opposing offensive line.  He was a man possessed.  Where did that player go the other 50 plays of the game?  Why did Warren never have the want to truly be great?  Warren is still getting paid in the NFL because he is a rare physical freak.  Big, fast and at times nasty.

While I can make excuses for CBrown and Couch, I can't do the same for Warren.  Maybe Butch coddled him too much.  Maybe he was just lazy.  I don't know, but I know that Warren was a major disappointment, and a poor first pick for Butch Davis.

Did I mention that Warren was arrested for gun possession hours after beating Baltimore in '01?  Sweet.

He was traded in 2005 to the Denver Broncos for a 4th round draft choice.

Career Stats: (As a Brown, he is still in the NFL)

4 Seasons: 116 Tackles, 16.5 sacks, 4 FF, 4 FR 

Players we could have drafted: (Yes I know this is stupid and 100% subjective to many factors, but I always like looking back at who we "could have drafted" just for fun.) LaDanian Tomlinson and Richard Seymour 

2nd Pick, 2nd Round, 33rd Overall: Quincy Morgan, WR Kansas State University

Quincy Morgan was a good college WR.  He started his career at a JUCO, then exploded on Manhattan (Kansas).  He finished his time at KSU with the 5th most yardage as a WR even though he only played there two seasons.  His senior season he caught 64 passes for 1,166 yards (18.2 YPC) and 14 TD's.

He wasn't great as a Brown, but he was decent.  Not a great trait for a second rounder, but passable.  He started 9 games his rookie season and notched 432 yards with 2 TD;'s.  His second season was by far his best as a Brown.  He notched 56 catches for 964 yards, leading the NFL with a 17.2 YPC and 7 TD's.  

In 2004 Morgan was swapped mid-season for notorious head case and uber talented WR Antonio Bryant.

Career Stats:

164 catches, 2,466 yards, 17 TD's

Players we could have drafted: Chad Johnson/Ochocinco, Kris Jenkins, Alge Crumpler, Kyle Vanden Bosch and Shaun Rogers (Drew Brees, Todd Heap, and Reggie Wayne were the three picks before Morgan.)

3rd Pick, 3rd Round, 65th Pick Overall: James Jackson, RB University of Miami

With all the talent that Miami had at running back, we ended up with James Jackson.  This guy took the Miami RB job after Edgerian James and left it to Clinton Portis.  Only the early Browns would be able to pull a complete scrub from the University of Miami backfield.  Once again, our offensive line sucked, but Jackson was nothing to write home about.  He stepped in right away and was the starter for the Browns splitting time with Jamel White.  To say that he sucked would be a massive understatement.  During his rookie season he averaged 2.8 YPC on 195 carries.  Wowza that is low.  His long run for the season was 22 yards.  

His offensive line sucked (Roger Chanoine anyone?) but to not even average 3 yards on almost 200 carries has to be some sort of record of futility.  He was traded mid-season in 2004 to the Green Bay Packers, then cut after one game.  

Career stats:

325 carries, 1082 yards, 3.3 YPC, 5 TD's, 32 catches, 232 yards

Players we could have drafted: Steve Smith, Kareem McKenzie, Dwight Smith, and Jonas Jennings (Adrian Wilson went the pick before)

2nd Pick, 4th Round, 97th Overall: Anthony Henry, CB South Florida

The best pick of this draft, hands down.  Anthony Henry had an awesome rookie season and should have gotten Defensive Rookie of the Year (Kendrell Bell of Pittsburgh got it).  He played nickel back (Behind McCutcheon and Corey Fuller) and led the NFL with 10 INT's.  He added in a 97 yard INT return for a TD as his signature moment.  

From there it was less than awesome.  He struggled in man coverage and ways always a pump fake away from being beaten deep or committing defensive PI.  He was at his best when he could ball hawk as a nickel back.  When he was asked to match up against 1's and 2's, it was a mismatch.

Anthony Henry left the Browns as a FA in 2005.  Prior to last season he was traded to Detroit for back-up QB Jon Kitna.  

Career Stats (Only as a Brown, since he is still in the NFL):

203 tackles, 17 interceptions, 3 FF, 1 defensive TD

Players we could have drafted: Rudi Johnson, Edgerton Hartwell, and Roberto Garza.  Looking back on it, Henry was a great pick in the fourth round.

3rd Pick, 5th Round, 134th Overall: Jeremiah Pharms, LB University of Washington

I just noted that Anthony Henry was maybe the best draft pick since the Browns came back.  This one is easily the worst.  That isn't a low bar my friends.  Here is a quick background on our fifth rounder, Mr. Pharms.

On October of 1999, Pharms was arrested for assulting his wife over an argument over a girlfriend.

On March 14th, 2000, Jeremiah Pharms was involved in a shooting of a local drug dealer.  His bloody finger print was at the scene.  He was picked out by the victim.  One of Pharms old girlfriends car was used in the get away.  His DNA, after a prolonged investigation, was proven to be at the scene of the shooting.  At the time of the draft, the investigation was still on going.

On December 27th, 2000, Police seized four pit bulls from Pharms house.  The dogs were suffering from malnutrition and as the vet called them "all bony prominences".  The dogs were never returned to Pharms.

With all of this hanging over his head, the Browns decided to use a fifth rounder on Mr. Pharms.

Shockingly, (I cannot stress the amount of sarcasm I am using here.  The guy HAD A BLOODY FINGERPRINT AT THE SCENE OF A SHOOTING!) Pharms was charged in the shooting two months after the NFL Draft.  

"This was kind of a shock to everybody, but one of the most horrible things you can do, is jump to conclusions".   - Browns Head Coach, Butch Davis

Maybe someone should explain what "shock" means, because Butch and I must have very different ideas.

Needless to say, the Browns cut Pharms  before he even put on a Browns uniform.  If there was a worst draft pick in NFL history, I am all ears.  

Pharms was released from prison and caught on with the New York Dragons of the Arena League.  He didn't last one full season.  In 2008, Pharms was charged with two felonies, illegal possession of a firearm by a convicted felon and discharging a firearm in a grossly negligent manner that could harm or kill.

Career Stats:

3 felonies, 0 tackles.

Players we could have drafted:  Matt Lehr, Ross Hochstein (It was a fugly round, but we drafted the only felon)

2nd Pick, 6th Round, 165th Pick Overall: Michael Jameson, CB Texas A&M University

Dude was really small.  Texas A&M had him at 5-11 179lbs going into his final season as an Aggie.  He played FS at Texas AM, but he mostly stuck at CB for the Browns.  He was mostly a special teamer during his years as a Brown.  He only had one start his entire career.  He played with the Browns for four seasons.  Not the worst return on a sixth rounder.

Career Stats:

17 tackles, 1 sack, 1 INT, 1 FF

Players we could have drafted: Cedrick Wilson, Renaldo Hill

3rd Pick, 7th Round, 203rd Overall: Paul Zukauskas, OG Boston College

The thing I always remember Zukauskas was for his blocking on kick returns.  He wasn't just an odd shape on returns though, he did start 10 games in 2003.  He wasn't great but he was a decent fill in.  For a seventh rounder he was a great get.  How often can you find a OL that can fill in at all offensive line positions?  That was a nice find by Butch.

Career Stats:

18 Starts, 10 in '03

Players we could have drafted: T.J. Houshmanzadeh (pick right after Zukauskas), Kynan Forney, and Marlon McCree

43rd Pick, 7th Round, 245th Pick Overall: Andre King, WR University of Miami

Andre King was more athlete than football player.  King played in the Reds and Braves minor league systems.  Butch always seemed to go after Miami players or players that he recruited.  Usually this wouldn't bother me, but it always seemed like Davis was reaching for the wrong Miami guys.  

This being said, King was a decent gamble.  He was a great athlete and could have been a good player.  He always seemed to make the team for no reason under Davis.  He stuck around for 4 seasons even though it seemed that he never made much of an impact.  Think of him as an athletic Syndric Steptoe.

Career Stats:

30 catches, 327 yards, 0 TD's

Players we could have drafted:  Antonio Pierce, Stephen Neal and Nick Harper

Draft Recap:

Looking back at this draft, I would have to give the Browns a D+.  We got an overpaid, off-the-field mess at DT.  A WR that was a question mark at best.  A RB that sucked big time.  Outside of Anthony Henry the Browns got zero playmakers out of this draft.  Did I mention that we drafted a player who was arrested weeks after the draft for a shooting that happened before the draft?  HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?!

Davis had a drafting strategy.  Draft athletes.  It's what makes Davis a great college HC.  He can take those athletes, plug them in and destroy a lesser college.  In the NFL, everyone has great athletes.  Butch never understood this.  

Once again, the Browns had another draft at the top of the draft board and we came away with nothing special.  If you look at this drafts ('99-'01), it would blow your mind that Butch somehow took this team to a 7-9 record in '01.  These horrible drafts set up what was coming in three years, another massive rebuilding.

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“Mr.” Pharms? Was he watching you type this?

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 26, 2010 3:28 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Rec-ced.

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Jan 26, 2010 5:42 AM EST up reply actions  

That was my point.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 26, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

What was the stat line that analysts love to bring up when talking about why the Browns suck so bad? Because none of our first or second rounders from 99-05 were good enough to stick with the team? That’s 14 great players that we missed out on! Add the possiblity of getting the more picks back in 99’ and we missed out on a possible 16 potential franchise players. It sickens me.

I never knew that Anthony Henry was a Browns pick. The way you describe sounds a little like Brandon McD. Good nickelback who’s mismatched against 1’s and 2’s.

by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 26, 2010 9:11 AM EST reply actions  

They are actually remarkably similar players, but I’d say Henry was more of a consistent player. At times McDonald can cover very well, at other times he’s just schooled. Henry seemed consistent in the types of players he could or could not cover.

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I would also say Henry might be a little more skilled and has better hands…but yes, they were similar. henry sucked when in man coverage in dallas.

by bross09 on Jan 26, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I think they are oddly different players. While both seem to have decent ball skills, I don’t see many other similarities. McDonald plays small and shys away from tackles. He is decent in man coverage. Henry was pretty tall, if I remember correctly, and played like a center fielder.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Jan 26, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I guess you’re right. Am I wrong in thinking that McDonald tends to play overly-aggressively in coverage, thus taking himself out of position for tackles? That’s always been my never-really-looked-at-it-closely appraisal.

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

He plays aggressively, but I’d argue that the times he actually got beat in coverage was due to more complacency. When he is giving full effort, I still think he is pretty decent in man coverage.

His inability to tackle, however, is inexcusable and probably a fatal flaw in his game.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Jan 26, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I usually forget that we got this guy in the fifth round. With that being said, I think he’s done pretty well. It’s not like we were expecting him to be a super star when we drafted him.

by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 26, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, I can’t fully fault him that we have relied on him to be a full-time starter the past 2 years. Part of it is the fault of the player personnel people for never getting better depth at the CB position. McDonald could be a more effective nickel.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 26, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

You are right, I was and am a huge Anthony Henry fan. His rookie season was outstanding, and with him and McCutcheon we had our best pair of corners since the Browns have returned. Hopefully we can pair someone with Wright and beat out that duo.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 26, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Hm, did Bodden and Baxter ever play together. That might rival Henry and McCutcheon.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Jan 26, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s possible, but I can’t give Baxter much credit since he only played in 8 games over 2 years with the Browns. 3 total interceptions.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 26, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

And Bodden sucked.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 26, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

He had one pretty good season. Got an undeserved reputation that disappeared once he went to the Lions and was part of the sieve that was the Pats’ secondary this year.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 26, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought Bodden was damn good for about a season and a half.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Jan 26, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, he wasn’t bad when he was here.

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 26, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember spending most of the ‘07 season bitching about Bodden. I think you could probably combine the best of Bodden and Brandon McDonald and make an adequate #2 corner, or a good nickel back, but either player alone isn’t all that good. Like McDonald, he’s at best a backup.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 26, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Bodden was much better than that when he wasn’t hurt. In 2005 he was a solid #1.

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

He had a habit of shutting down Chad Johnson

The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.

by North Coast Flea on Jan 26, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the packers game, 2005.

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

the reason they are similar is that they do not have the awareness or skills to play well in man.

by bross09 on Jan 26, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s not true of McDonald though.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Jan 26, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I would say so. McDonald does blow some coverages because of his instincts. He is not an extremely instinctive corner out there at all.

by bross09 on Jan 27, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he has very good man instincts. He gambles when playing zone however and he can’t tackle. If all he was asked to do was play man in pass coverage, he’d be a very good corner.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Jan 27, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I guess We will agree to disagree. he plays man from what I saw more often than zone. he might not be horrible in man but he is no champ bailey at all. he has average at best man instincts. I feel he gambles a bit in man too.

by bross09 on Jan 27, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought Henry was faster in a straight line, too.

McDonald seriously regressed this year.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I was pissed when they fired Palmer, they only gave him 2 seasons with an expansion team that had almost no talent. Was Lerner expecting him to be like king Midas and turn shit into gold?

The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.

by North Coast Flea on Jan 26, 2010 9:33 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah I could see that but really, look at what little he’s gone on to accomplish and you quickly realize he would never have been the guy to make it all work. He’s had one OC gig and two QB coaching gigs. Not exactly working his way back up.

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Right. I think it’s obvious that Chris Palmer, while a nice enough guy, should have never been hired as Browns head coach in the first place. Of course, Dwight Clark should have never been hired as GM so it’s very fitting that they were both here together.

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 26, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

at least we were consistent in our hirings

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

punches wall

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

While this is true, hindsight is 20/20 and at the time I was still pissed.

The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.

by North Coast Flea on Jan 26, 2010 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Well that’s fair.

by danvail on Jan 27, 2010 7:11 AM EST up reply actions  

So after three years of “we could have drafted this guy”, here’s what our roster could have looked like going into 2002:

QB: Tom Brady
RB: LDT, Kevin Faulk
WR: Steve Smith, L Coles, D Driver, Stokely, Price
TE: Desmond Clark
LT: C Samuels
OG/C: JP Machado, Todd McLure, Kelvin Garmon, C Carligle, Shaun O’ Hara, Matt Lehr
RT: Jon Jansen

DT: Shaun Rogers, Rod Coleman
DE: …I didn’t draft any somehow
OLB: Porter, Bowens, Simoneau
MLB: Barton, Urlacher, Haggans
CB: Bailey, Azumah, McKenzie, Henry
S: Mike Brown, Nick Harper

That defense would have been amazing even with bums at DE. QB would have been shaky the first few years, but Brady could have had two years of development time. The interior line isn’t great, but we have great ends and a stacked receiving corps. Plus, LDT.

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 11:28 AM EST reply actions  

granted. it is always great to have this hindsight but at the same time, some of the picks we took were so dumb. we easily should have taken LDT

by bross09 on Jan 26, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m not even commenting on the fact that we missed so much. Just having fun with the exercise of what ifs. That defense is fun to picture.

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Porter and Urlacher would have been a murderous duo behind Rogers and Coleman. And the secondary could have shutdown everyone.

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree…it would be interesting…

by bross09 on Jan 26, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

even applying a 50/50 hit-or-miss, assuming Brady, LDT, Driver and Stokely, that’s a decent offense to build around through free agency.

prior to Thomas, Winslow was easily the best of the bunch, and he’s a middle-tier, better-than-average TE right now… and that’s it.

You are reading my signature.

by rolub on Jan 26, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

This is why the draft is important.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:14 AM EST up reply actions  

My god what the hell was wrong with our front office? How is it possible to be so wrong so many times? Its almost impressive

by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 26, 2010 12:02 PM EST reply actions  

i agree, and said it in an eariler post. how could a team possibly miss that badly, that many times? the odds of it seem mindblowing. how didn’t a single one of them turn into a solid starter that remained with the team until now?

by Dawg Nuts on Jan 26, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s ridiculous.

by emily522 on Jan 26, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s a conspiracy.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 26, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

The Browns had the perfect storm of suck brewing before we even came back. We didn’t have the extra picks that Carolina and Jacksonville got. In ‘99 every other NFL team had figured out how to maneuver around the cap, so the Browns didn’t have the added benefit of throwing buckets of cash at good veterans on June 1st (the day when every other NFL team cut overpaid players in order to stretch a cap hit over two seasons instead of one.)

The Browns were starting behind the eight ball. We were drafting young players on to a roster of trash. Don’t get it wrong, they drafted poorly but part of me wonders how well other players would have done on such a bad roster.

All that being said, the Browns drafting has been flawed since the start and it has killed this franchise.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 26, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Somehow I think “killed” is an understatement.

It’s more like someone tried to revive a zombie back from the dead, shot it, burned it, scattered it’s ashes, had said ashes vaporized with nuclear weapons, and finally planted a seed in it called the 2007 draft.

by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 26, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

if a player has true natural talent, he will excel despite the team around him to at least a certain extent. Look at Calvin Johnson in Detroit, he had an absolute nobody throwing him the ball and he still managed over 1,000 yards and over 10 TD’s. Ndmandi was on a terrible defense and was still seen as the best CB in the league. RB is probably the hardest position to excel in with no passing threat and a bad line but somehow, Steven Jackson managed over 100 yards a game last year. So with as many opportunities that we had being at the top of the draft order in each round for 7 years, we should have come away with at least ONE franchise player that should have stuck with the browns for his entire career. But somehow, our front office was so excruciatingly shitty that they went 7 years and around 50 picks without getting a long term, above average player. The only one to come close has been DQ and the jury’s still out. It’s almost infuriating.

by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 28, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Define “long term”.

And Andre Johnson in Houston is another guy who has quietly put up great numbers, despite playing with (before Schaub) anything approaching a good QB, almost a complete lack of a running game, and an average-at-best defense.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

you have a better chance at throwing blindfold against a dart board and hitting than you did with hitting on a guy in the draft with that front office.

by bross09 on Jan 26, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Could be worse. We could be Lions fans. Their drafts have to look pretty similar.

by Crazy Ray on Jan 26, 2010 8:00 PM EST up reply actions  

To be honest

The ‘could have drafted’ can apply to any team who passes on a late round steal, so don’t shoot yourselves in the foot over that.

But yes, this draft was ugly, outside of Henry, who was serviceable for a good amount of time.

Warren seemed to have found his niche with the Broncos, which is a shame for the Browns.

I’m just glad you guys passed on LT. :)

by ryebr3ad on Jan 26, 2010 4:11 PM EST reply actions  

I think most of us are aware on the hypothetical stuff, however if you look at the Browns early drafts it is an exercise in complete misses. You almost have to be excellent at sucking to miss as often as we did.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 26, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Sort of like it takes a genius to miss every question on the SAT.

Someone else brought up that example before.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 26, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

That was me actually

by Roger Dorn on Jan 26, 2010 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

He still wasn’t good at all when he was with the broncos. he is inconsistent and they keep him b/c he is a physical freak but he never really produces.

He has in fact been with the raiders for the past 3 seasons. perfect place for an overpaid, underperforming physical freak. he is no more effective than a guy like kenyon coleman on the browns, and probably significantly less effective.

What a shame for any team that actually played him after the browns. for all the crap we give him, he has been much worse since we got rid of him…I would not call it a shame we got rid of him.

by bross09 on Jan 26, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha, yeah, he does belong on the Raiders. Though they do have that new technique of drafting players that suck right off the bat (Heyward-Bey, Russell). Even Ashomuga was a hideous reach, and that was the one pick they got right.

by ryebr3ad on Jan 27, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s not a lot of difference between Warren’s stats and Richard Seymour’s stats. Warren has played in 6 more games than Seymour, and Seymour has 30 more tackles and 11 more sacks than Warren. Over a nine year career, that’s not much separation between a guy who is considered elite and a guy who is considered a bust.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 27, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

What about all the Pro Bowls and such?

by Western Reserve on Jan 27, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Chad clifton made the Pro Bowl this year. Derek Anderson is a former Pro Bowl QB. I don’t really think the pro bowl counts for all that much. If Seymour has an All-Pro bid or two, then I’d take notice (don’t know if he does or not).

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 27, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Five Pro Bowls and four times named to the All-Pro team.

by Western Reserve on Jan 27, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

golanbatrac takes notice.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 27, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh my gosh. He’s become self-aware — like Skynet.

by Western Reserve on Jan 27, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I hate it whenever someone brings up that D.A. went to the pro-bowl. For one thing, he was an alternate who went because Phillip Rivers was hurt that year. For the second, he was bad when he played the whole second half. I knew right then and there that D.A. was going to give us hell and that he was going to end up in the unemployment office. As a greeter.

by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 27, 2010 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate it whenever someone brings up that D.A. went to the pro-bowl. For one thing, he was an alternate who went because Phillip Rivers was hurt that year. For the second, he was bad when he played the whole second half.

Thank you!

by emily522 on Jan 27, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I used DA as an example for why I don’t think pro bowl bids count for all that much in player evaluation. I don’t see what the problem is here?

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 28, 2010 2:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Derek Anderson is a former Pro Bowl QB. I don’t really think the pro bowl counts for all that much.

Yeah, there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here.

by Western Reserve on Jan 28, 2010 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I knew right then and there that D.A. was going to give us hell and that he was going to end up in the unemployment office. As a greeter.

From your lips to God’s ears!

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jan 30, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Warren has been in an attacking 4-3 his entire career.

Seymour has been in a 3-4 every year except this past season when he was traded to Oakland.

I am not Rufio, but I think the differences in the schemes of these defenses has a lot to do with similar stat lines.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

This is true. Hadn’t thought of that.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 27, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I would agree that Seymour is a far better player, but a lot of Pats fans I know were calling Seymour the most overrated Patriot when they traded him to Oakland. Take it with a grain of salt, but that is the feeling amongst their general fanbase.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 27, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

rec. and agreed. we have to take the opinions of the idiot pats fan base with a grain of salt too…a very large grain of salt.

by bross09 on Jan 27, 2010 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

He would have been a 2-gapper most of the time in NE. I think their whole DL is highly underrated. Even when he was in Oakland this past year and in a 1-gap scheme (I don’t know if I would really consider that “out of position” for him or not), he looked like he was just pushing the OTs wherever he wanted.

Anyway, he would not have been asked to get sacks the way a 3-tech would have under Butch Davis. Also, it is kind of a hard comparison IMO, because a 4-3 end (which Seymor now is) would probably be asked to get more sacks than either 4-3 DT (the 3tech or the nose).

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Stats ≠ production.

I didn’t watch Warren the way I am watching our picks these days, but I can almost guaranteed Seymor would grade out higher to his coaches than Warren would.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Just look at what each was traded for at some point in their careers. While it’s true that Al Davis trades should be accounted for accordingly, Seymour fetched a 1, while Warren fetched a 4.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 28, 2010 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Right, I think this is pretty much a no-brainer.

by Western Reserve on Jan 28, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

And Seymor was older when the trade happened. But the whole Al Davis thing…

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

The ‘could have drafted’ can apply to any team who passes on a late round steal, so don’t shoot yourselves in the foot over that.

We know, duh. It’s just conversation.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 26, 2010 4:50 PM EST reply actions  

responce to Steeler troll

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 26, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty loose definition of a troll, don't you think?

I like keeping tabs on my rival teams. Is that so much to ask?

by ryebr3ad on Jan 27, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Very loose definition.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 27, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I don’t think he was a troll.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I know. Just pickin’ on the Steeler fan, that’s all.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 27, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Have you been here when Rexx or Malor have really been cutting loose?

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

M4L0R?

If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...

by SpecialBrownie on Jan 28, 2010 7:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Any one of the additional names he’s made up would suffice.

He’s been civil lately, but the less recent past makes me thankful we haven’t had serious trolls in a while. To Rexx/Bruce’s credit, he’s stayed away as well, and often seemed at least a little interested in serious intra-SBN talk.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

HAHA nope

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 28, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Career Stats:
3 felonies, 0 tackles.

Ahaha I just noticed this now.

by emily522 on Jan 26, 2010 5:18 PM EST reply actions  

when ppl say lol, rarely do they laugh out loud. I actually laughed out loud and got weird looks.

by bross09 on Jan 26, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I laughed for a good 10 seconds when I read that.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 26, 2010 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

At least when we do 2007, we’ll be able to say some positive stuff (Thomas, Wright).

by emily522 on Jan 26, 2010 5:19 PM EST reply actions  

You mean we have 5 more of these to endure before something positive?

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin

by Spidey on Jan 26, 2010 5:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I am in the middle of doing the ’02 one right now.

Trust me, it gets worse. Even though drafting a felon that never saw a NFL snap is a tough act to follow.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 26, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

can’t wait to hear ’02 then. however horrible and cringeworthy these are, I still love these articles. maybe I am a sports masochist.

by bross09 on Jan 26, 2010 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

you are a browns fan after all.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly. Case in point.

by danvail on Jan 26, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I know…ergo sports masochist.

by bross09 on Jan 27, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Awesome! I mean, awesome that we will get more of these, not that it gets worse.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin

by Spidey on Jan 27, 2010 4:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It kinda stops at (Thomas, Wright) though.

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Jan 26, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

What about McDonald? He’s freaking awesome!

*snickers

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 27, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

for taking him in the fifth round, he’s probably been better than expected. He still sucks as a starting corner, but would probably make a good nickel, and thats more than you get from the normal fifth rounder.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Jan 27, 2010 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Looking at it from that point of view, yeah.

But to me he comes across as someone who thinks he’s really darn good, but he isn’t.

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Jan 27, 2010 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I get that feeling too, but couldn’t tell you why

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Jan 27, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Soulja Boy dancing with Braylon during warmups? That actually doesn’t bother me too much

I really hope he doesn’t think he’s better than he is, especially considering he’s lost his starting spot a bunch of times, and just had a year where he regressed horribly.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree. he is a very good pick in the 5th round and I won’t knock him for that. I still think he shouldn’t start on really any NFL team.

by bross09 on Jan 27, 2010 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

He shouldn’t be starting for us, either. Hopefully we can get someone to push him down the depth chart a little.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree. that is why I said he shouldn’t start on an NFL team at this point in his career…he is extremely lucky we have virtually no one at that position, otherwise he would rarely see the field.

by bross09 on Jan 28, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I always thought that Davis was a pretty good coach. To get the wins out of the players he had was amazing. Unfortunately he sucked as a GM. His drafts were terrible.

by Crazy Ray on Jan 26, 2010 8:02 PM EST reply actions  

I thought he had a keen eye for talent, but no idea how to play the draft process. He’d become infatuated with certain players and sacrifice everything to get them (2nd round pick to move up one spot for a tight end.) He’s someone who needed a GM in charge of the draft.

by gahnki on Jan 26, 2010 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Her certainly knows how to recruit.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Hey B19K, for the ‘02 draft, don’t forget to mention that Davis drafted Green out of spite.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 26, 2010 9:56 PM EST reply actions  

I was hoping for Duckett in the first.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 26, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Only the early Browns would be able to pull a complete scrub from the University of Miami backfield.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Jan 26, 2010 11:39 PM EST reply actions  

If anyone cares, the Cardinals are no longer going to be "threat".

Warner is done

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 27, 2010 4:37 PM EST reply actions  

Well now they can grind it out on the ground with Beanie and Hightower.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Holmgren wants to make QB call before training camp

He totally punks Mangini’s philosophy here.

link

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 27, 2010 4:45 PM EST reply actions  

Mangini had next to no game film on Quinn last off-season.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 27, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I meant in the sense of keeping the starter a secret. He knew from day one who he was playing. He was giving DA more unnecessary reps to cover his own ass, which lead to Quinn not getting enough work.
I’m sure a professional coach can evaluate a player based off a few starts from the previous season, preseason games, and watching a couple months worth of practices first hand.

What Holmgren was saying was that he won’t let that garbage happen again.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 27, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

He was giving DA more unnecessary reps to cover his own ass,

Proof?

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 27, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I think most of us knew that BQ was going to be the starter before training camp ever began (I was foolishly backing DA at that time *sigh). And Mangini knew that if he didn’t start Quinn, the lynch mob in Cleveland was coming for his jelly rolls. He wanted to win sooo badly in his first game that he started playing "stupid" as to who the starter was going to be in the first game. Therefor DA got unnecessary reps to hide Mangini’s choice.

Of course, I have no actual proof. It’s just my opinion/belief. You don’t have to agree, bro.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 27, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

You don’t have to agree, bro.

That’s good, because I don’t agree.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 27, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Enlighten me please. What are your thoughts?

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 28, 2010 12:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I think most of us knew that BQ was going to be the starter before training camp ever began

I think many of us were hoping that Quinn would start, but no one knew who would start (including the coaching staff). He said there would be competition at every position, and lo and behold, there was.

And Mangini knew that if he didn’t start Quinn, the lynch mob in Cleveland was coming for his jelly rolls.

The lynch mob was on Mangini from day one, and Mangini made no concessions. I think anyone who thinks that Mangini gives a rats ass about what the mouthbreathers want (especially to the point of making personnel decisions based on public opinion) is delusional. A coach who rules via public opinion wouldn’t have traded down to take a center in the first round, wouldn’t have told Cribbs (the most popular player of the expansion era) to wait for a new contract and then lowball him, wouldn’t have taken two receivers and a project in the second round, and would have went to great lengths to put an end to the endless speculation surrounding the waterbottle nonsense, the mural nonsense, the Davis injury and all of the other incidents endlessly cited as proof positive that Mangini needed to be fired.

He wanted to win sooo badly in his first game that he started playing “stupid” as to who the starter was going to be in the first game.

Do we really want a coach who doesn’t want to win? More to the point, would a coach who is desperate for an early win trade a pro bowl TE in the offseason and then trade his #1 receiver in week three leaving two rookies, a second year seventh rounder, and Mike Furrey as our only receivers?

Neither QB showed anything in camp or the preseason. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit that Mangini wasn’t sold on either QB, and made a last second decision in favor of Quinn. But ultimately, who gives a shit? Both QBs suck. Naming a starter a few days (or weeks) earlier than he did wouldn’t have changed a thing.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 28, 2010 2:09 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

You’re arguing just for the sake of arguing,. No one cares.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 28, 2010 3:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Disagree, his points are good ones here. Mangini is not being influenced by public perception. Critiquing his handling of the QB situation is fair game, but saying that he is swayed by the public or media in any shape is just wrong.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 28, 2010 8:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I honestly believe that the public opinion had something to do with his decisions. I’m probably just crazy then.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 28, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Public opinion didn’t cross his mind. Not once. No evidence to support that it did. Plenty that says it didn’t cross his mind.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Jan 29, 2010 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I’ll have to side with golan here.

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Jan 28, 2010 5:47 AM EST up reply actions  

agree with all of this, and rec.

by Dawg Nuts on Jan 28, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

LOL I just noticed your signature. Is that in reference to me calling BuckeyeBrad ‘Hitler’ awhile back? I was pretty drunk and on a tirade that day.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 28, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Paranoid much?

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 28, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

no, just asking

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 28, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

No. I think it’s when I was saying that Hitler was a genius. A terrible genius, but a genius none the less.

If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...

by SpecialBrownie on Jan 29, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said and agreed.

And Mangini knew that if he didn’t start Quinn, the lynch mob in Cleveland was coming for his jelly rolls.

They’d be after him because we sucked so badly at the start of this year, but had the team turned out vaguely competent and had DA somehow temporarily shown something, I don’t think it would have applied much. Winning quiets critics.

In other words, Mangini obviously had every reason to look for the best performing option at QB. He sure wasn’t going to get much credit just for starting BQ and then still sucking.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jan 30, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, I would have guessed that Quinn would be the starter. That said, I don’t think even Mangini himself knew who the starter would be.

Obviously, he should have just picked a guy and went with him early on, even if it ended up being the wrong choice.

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it would be fair game to have a lot bigger complaints if it were evident during this season that one QB was clearly better than the other. What I saw was one horribly below average QB and one below average QB who had one nice game. If anything Mangini’s indecision shows that he may have felt the QB situation was worse than he realized.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 28, 2010 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

This is my view of it. I don’t think he realized how bad it was until he opened the stall door and passed out on the piss-stained floor. By the time he woke up DA was busy tanking what little chance he had left at a career as a 3rd string emergency QB. Thankfully it was in enough time to tell Quinn to hand the ball off to Harrison and get out of the way.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Jan 28, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

At least we hope this was his thought process.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 28, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think he realized how bad it was until he opened the stall door and passed out on the piss-stained floor.

Well said.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jan 28, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I think he probably realized in camp that for whatever reason (Daboll’s offense, QBs playing worse than he thought, lack of pass pro, WRs, etc.) that we weren’t going to be good in the passing game.

He’s in a no-win situation at that point. I really think the only hope he had was to name someone the starter and hope that chemistry, combined with the rookies really stepping up to the plate would mean something in the pass game.

Knowing what he knows now, I’d bet he would admit not picking a guy was a mistake, albeit not a huge one (because no one was going to light it up anyway).

by rufio on Jan 28, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, Holmgren also says he doesn’t believe in that “competition stuff.”

by Western Reserve on Jan 27, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, if by “competition” you mean splitting first string practice time to ensure the offense doesn’t gel until week 14 – after its second QB change.

by danvail on Jan 27, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

More specifically, after the QB changed again and the rest of the offense realized eliminating the QB from the equation would actually be for the best.

by danvail on Jan 27, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Which makes it ironic that Harrison’s nickname is ghost really.

If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...

by SpecialBrownie on Jan 27, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

the rest of the offense realized eliminating the QB from the equation would actually be for the best.

That’s so true that it is frightening.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 28, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I can see the locker room now.

Shhh. They’re coming.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Jan 28, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, something like that.

by Western Reserve on Jan 28, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

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