2009 Season in Review: The Wide Receivers
This is the fourth installment reviewing the 2009 season by position. Part 1- OL; Part 2- QB; Part 3- RB
No position underwent such an overhaul under the Mangini regime than Wide Receivers. At the end of 2008, our depth chart included a stone-handed, hard-headed, physically-gifted jackass, a soon-to-be suspended underacheiver, and a bunch of never-would-be's. Not to mention a supremely talented soilder with a tickicking time bomb for a knee.
Today, I'm not sure if the pass catchers on the team are better or worse. I do know that there is less drama. And the unit looks a lot different. Here's what our WR's did last year and what we can expect in the offseason.
The Players
Braylon Edwards (4 games, 4 starts, 10 catches, 139 YDS, 0 TDs)
Mohamed Massaquoi (16 games, 11 starts, 34 catches, 624 YDS, 3 TDs, -78 DYAR, -23.2% DVOA)
Josh Cribbs, the WR (16 games, 12 starts, 20 catches, 135 YDS, 1 TD, -115 DYAR, -52.7% DVOA)
Chansi Stuckey (11 games, 0 starts, 19 catches, 198 YDS, 1 TD)
Mike Furrey (16 games, 4 starts, 23 catches, 170 YDS, 0 TDs, -44 DYAR, -26.4% DVOA)
Brian Robiskie (11 games, 1 start, 7 catches, 106 YDS, 0 TDs, -37 DYAR, -36.2% DVOA)
Evaluation
It is really difficult to put these numbers in context. For one, except for Massaquoi none of the players had enough playing time or passes thrown their way to have much of a sample size. Also, the quarterback play was so inconsistent or, in my opinion, downright awful for 4/5 of the year, things like catch rate (thanks to DA) and yards per catch (thanks to early season Quinn) aren't the WR's fault.
Some things are hard to ignore. None of our WRs ranked on the positive side of DYAR or DVOA. Stuckey and Massaquoi were both in the bottom ten among qualifying WRs in both of these value stats. And Massaquoi's horrid 36% catch rate on balls thrown his way was 3rd worst among the 89 WRs ranked by football outsiders. Ouch.
But considering where we were coming from at the position, some growing pains were expected.
What we got
After Donte Stallworth had his accident and Winslow was shipped out, I pegged WRas our secondmost pressing need (behind LB) for the draft- regardless of Edwards' status. Mangini responded by drafting two productive, if not explosive, WRs out of big time programs. And when he finally pulled the trigger on an Edwards deal, he acquired another young WR in return in Stuckey. The bottom line is, we have an extermely young WR corps.
I praised the Winslow and Edwards moves. Though I wondered about drafting two WRs so close to eachother, I understood the logic and realized the desperate need we had at the position. But the end result is a lack of top end freakish talent like we had with Winslow and Edwards. Gone is the big play ability of Edwards. Gone is the freakishly good hands of Winslow. Stuckey, Robiskie, and Massaquoi all may turn out to be solid NFL players. But I don't see any of them having the raw talent as their predecessors.
Is Massaquoi a number 1 receiver? Hard to say. There was the argument that Massauoi's best game came when Edwards was the number 1 and coverages rolled to his side of the field. He had 3 solid games, but he was anything but consistent. He made the wrong read (at least compared to the QB) a ton. He struggled to get open. He didn't fight for jump balls. And he showed near-unforgivable lack of effort on some INT returns.
Robiskie couldn't find his way to the field. And when he was on the field, he was a ghost. Effectively erased by #2, #3, and #4 CBs for entire games. Often hailed as the most game-ready NFL receiver in last year's draft, this is really a puzzle. He has good straight line speed, but I don't know if he ever was asked to run a go route- seemingly his forte at Ohio State. Was this another case of Daboll's immaturity/uncreativity? Or just that Robo wasn't as ready as advertised?
Stuckey was so forgettable, despite being here the last 11 weeks of the year, that I have almost nothing to comment on. He had decent output against Detroit and Kansas City, but then, who didn't? Stuckey seems to be depth, and that's about it.
Cribbs-as-starting-WR didn't work out so well. Bad timing, imprecise routes, questionable hands plagued most of the early-season throws to Cribbs. Whats worse, it kept him off the coverage units and seemed to negatively affect his return productivity. By the end of the season, when he lined up at WR, it was to block. That seemed to be appropriate.
Furrey is old, but experienced. He made more of a contribution as a defender than an WR though.
What to look for in the offseason
Think of the 90's Packers, the 00's Seahawks, the late 00's Eagles, the late 00's Jets. Holmgren, Heckert, and Mangini all seem comfortable without a top tier WR. There were some good WRs on those teams, but not the top-10 draft pick type. And not the blockbuster superstar type. There doesn't seem to be a Calvin Johnson or Michael Crabtree in this draft (maybe Dez Bryant), but I wouldn't expect our brain trust to go that way anyway.
That said, I do think we need, at least, a minor injection of talent to the WR corps. Another 2nd rounder seems unlikey, but maybe Holmgren andcompany will find a guy that actually is what Paul Hubbard or Syndric Steptoe was supposed to be. Athletes with NFL promise in the later rounds. Taylor Price and Dexter McCluster come to mind.
With the youth of our current WRs though, maybe a vet is a more practical way to findthat talent. Some potential free agents include (a more complete list can be found here):
Terrell Owens: Always thought this guy got a bad rap. But at this point, he is way past his prime.
Antonio Bryant: I'd be up for this. He is still only 29, and may come at a bit of a discount.
Vincent Jackson (restricted): Top 5 WR. Yes please. But it won't happen- The Chargers would be fools to let him go.
Brandon Marshall (restricted): I'd do it. But I fear the character issues won't mesh with Mangini and Holmgren's "values".
Malcom Floyd (restricted): Yes Please. He's big, strong, fast, good hands. His production isn't eye-popping, but consider all the TDs they gift wrap for LT and Gates in the Chargers' offense. With all the potential free agents the Chargers have, this one may slip through the cracks. Plus, his lowish numbers might mean he won't be too expensive. I'd target him big time.
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171 comments
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Comments
Malcom Floyd is a big Hell Yes.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 28, 2010 10:15 PM EST reply actions
I’ve mentioned this before, but Chris Chambers is a free agent. He played well after getting traded to the Chiefs this year and he’s from Cleveland so he might want to come here to end his career. Maybe he’ll be our next Joe J. I think he’d be a good 3 /4 receiver and a veteran to help the young guys.
He’d be #2, at least.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 29, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
I would’ve thought Massaquoi as an OK pick. 630 yards for a rookie playin’ with QBs that range from average to holy shit.
I wonder what the 36% catch rate reflects though. Does it include throws that were really bad throws?
The other receivers are really just ‘meh’.
I kinda see Dexter McCluster as a Josh Cribbs with better hands. If we do go looking for someone, then Antonio Bryant and Marshall seem like better options.
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
Which QB’s were “average”? I missed them.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 28, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
No shit.
Average?!
I’d LOVE average at this point. I hate to say it…but as much as I’d like to see Quinn be successful I just do not think either will eventually be playing for us…and I think that will probably be for the best in the long run.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+2
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 30, 2010 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Re Catch Rate: The short answer is yes, the includes really bad throws. I mentioned that some of the low catch rates can be explained by DA’s (and to a lesser extent Quinn’s) inaccuracy. But that number is so much lower than average… so bad, even amongst other Browns receivers, it does not reflect well on Massaquoi.
Also, from observation, it seemed that he had a real hard time reading option routes. He would chose to run a seem when the coverage dictated that he should run a comeback route. (see rufio’s most recent post for more detail about this). And those incompletions also would be reflected in the catch rate stats. Here is the FO link.
Re: McCluster: Yeah, he would duplicate some of what Cribbs can do. But he does it in such a different way. He is short, low to the ground, really quick and good top end speed. Cribbs relies much more on vision and power. He would be another, different type, of unique and potentially explosive weapon. In the Darren Sproles mold.
I don’t know if I’d trust Daboll to use him correctly, but hopefully Holmgren has enough influence on the offense to make it a possibility. Also, I don’t know how early he is projected to go. I’m not suggesting a early pick on him, but if he slides to the second day, I’d take the gamble.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
by Ryan Kelsey on Jan 29, 2010 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
McCluster – He’s having a good Senior Bowl from what I’ve been reading. I wouldn’t mind him either. There’d be another playmaker in the offense. I doubt that he’s there in the 2nd day though.
Massaquoi – Two ways to look at it. He either sucks and we need to look for WRs. Again. Or he has a lot of upside. If he can polish the catching and route running then maybe he can break 1000 yards.
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
It’s way too early to say that he sucks. Wide receivers almost always take a couple years to adjust to the NFL before they break out, so I wouldn’t be worried yet. And if most of his problems are with knowing his routes and reading coverages then that is something which can be learned with experience, as opposed to just having bad hands (like Braylon) which can’t really be learned.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 29, 2010 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
It’s way too early to say that he sucks.
Agree. At this point I would venture he still has the potential to be a solid, solid…No. 2. on a decent team.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with this. I am willing to bet both he and Robi were swimming in the playbook this year and had to think rather than just playing the game.
this is a good point. i’d equate this statement to playing golf. when you swing, if you’re thinking about every little thing you have to do to hit the ball well, and every single step in the process, you won’t hit the ball well at all; but if you practice and practice and get your swing routine down, your muscle memory allows you to simply relax and hit the ball, without experiencing “paralysis by analysis.”
if our WRs had to consciously think on every play about what route to run, where the defenders would be, when to cut, who to block, they would probably be tentative and therefore not at 100%. once they learn all of the plays and get experience playing in the league, they’ll get better.
Adding to this, you could see times where MoMass just didn’t know when to cut routes shorts on blitzes, and other minor things like that.
That kind of stuff is usually just getting a feel for the game. I fully expect MoMass to be a good player.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
I really am not ready to evaluate Massaquoi’s catch rate yet because of the QB play. I am willing to wait and see what happens with a league average accurate QB.
Yes. How about we get a perhaps short term….but still…veteran QB who can deliver the ball and then let’s evaluate MoMass.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
QB is our issue…and we’re probably not going to solve it this year or most likely next…this is, unfortunately, our real issue. It aint gonna go away.
Let’s keep doing what we’re doing and bring in a guy who can work with Mangini and Holmgren and deliver the ball where he has to when he has to. Not flashy, just a bit older and a solid veteran.
I’m thinkin’ this coming year we might be able to win 6-8 games and establish something. Maybe more if we play like we did the last 5.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
McNabb has another 3-4 productive years in him. I think he will be a nice solution while we develop someone else.
He’d be great.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Man, it would be strange to see him wearing our colors.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 29, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
QB is our issue!. For sure, though if you really want to get to brass tacks, our offensive line on the right stunk, with no kind of pass protection, and our WR’s need to relearn route running. I think it would be a great to offer Jerry Rice either a consulting contract/WR coaching Job/ maybe somehow a combination type of thing. Why not have the best teach our young guys how to play the NFL game? Shore up the RT position and we wont have to draft a high OL, and then could address the defensive LB corp.
We have a ton of needs and a few players to trade off for young players or picks, or both.
The All-America Football Conference was created in June of 1944 to compete against the NFL. Even though the league outdrew the NFL in attendance, the continuing dominance of the Cleveland Browns led to the league's downfall.
Browns’ biggest positional weaknesses, ranked by importance and need:
1. QB
2. QB
3. QB
4. S*
5. CB*
6. RT*
7. WR*
8. DE*
9. OT*
10. RB*
*Subject to debate
by danvail on Jan 29, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i think he meant the order was debatable
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
oh. It was a little unclear to me if the order was subject to debate or the fact that they were weaknesses was subject to debate
Actually, I thought the right side of the line was pretty good for the last 5-6 games of the year.
by rufio on Jan 29, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
St. Clair…Womack.? Who else…I forget.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Womack was playing RT, while Hadnot and Fraley played at RG. I really think Fraley/Hadnot are above average at RG, and St. Clair was just so bad at RT it brought our whole line down I do think St. Clair could play backup RG/LG.
we stand a good chance to lose hadnot….
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
I thought St. Clair was decent in the run game, and got burnt by fast defensive ends. Overall, not bad for a minimal commitment. Probably just as effective as the expensive Shaffer.
He was…and I was m*therf*ckin’ him left and right…However, we have a really solid, solid line to build on so I would like to see that continue…let’s keep doing it right…I have to admit I was so, so wrong about Mack…
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
He got the job done, and Fraley at RG with Womack at RT was better than Womack at RG and St Clair at RT.
Fraley will never have the tools to dominate his guy, but he allowed the unit to dominate because of his consistency, effort, and skill. I would play Hadnot over him easily, but the two of them combined to allow us to do what we did on the ground without much help through the air. That’s good enough to me.
And even though I think Womack is the better individual player than Fraley, I would still like to upgrade at RT than RG. Maybe that means I misspoke earlier about Fraley, maybe it doesn’t.
I really am not ready to evaluate Massaquoi’s catch rate yet because of the QB play.
This. And furthermore, I think it is tough to evaluate ANY of our WRs or TEs for that matter for the same reason. I wouldn’t say that any of them are going to be top-tier but they’ll all look a whole lot better with a QB that can make the throws.
Brownsyup
Also, from observation, it seemed that he had a real hard time reading option routes. He would chose to run a seem when the coverage dictated that he should run a comeback route. (see rufio’s most recent post for more detail about this).
Thanks for the plug, and yes, I saw this too. A lot of teams will have the outside WR on an option between a go/fade, a comeback/out, or something like a skinny post, all based off of the CB’s leverage and whether or not they press. The run-n-shoot called this the “read” route, and it is also called the “choice” route.
It would frankly be dumb to try to run something like that when you have rookie WRs and QBs who didn’t get 100% of the practice snaps in camp with them.
Maybe it was dumb to run with the youth we had at QB and WR, but it sure seemed like we ran it a lot.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
It also seemed like we ran a lot of slow developing routes that usually favor stronger-armed QBs (the “switch” concept, deep comebacks especially) to fit our personnel.
You have to give Daboll some credit for being able to move the ball late in the season, but our passing game needs a lot of work.
Didn’t we already have Antonio Bryant?
And I’m not saying Marshall isn’t really, really talented…I just do NOT see this regime touching him with a ten foot pole.
I kinda see Dexter McCluster as a Josh Cribbs with better hands
I wouldn’t compare anyone…college or pro… to Cribbs and what he can do just yet.
I agree with Brad in that a player like Chambers is far more likely for this team at this point.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:44 AM EST up reply actions
Looking at his stats he has been productive.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
If we can get him on the cheap not a bad pick up at all….
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
…I still say we sign Chambers,.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
Bryant’s issues have never been his hands or talent.
It is his attitude that kills him.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t forget that he catches with his chest, not his hands, or at least he did when he was here last, maybe he actually learned how to catch the ball after he left, I don’t know.
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 30, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
I know of one play in which he used his hands on a catch.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 30, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
That would be one hand sir. ha ha
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Feb 3, 2010 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
If I had to compare McCluster to a player it would be Dante Hall.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
I fully blame Daboll for Cribbs’ lack of results. How many times have we seen him on redundant “wr screens” or running hitch routes? It seemed consensus that the best way is to let Cribbs run slot or crossing routes so that he could catch it on the run and do what he does best – run with authority.
Just like Quinn, I’m reeeeeaaaalllllyyyy hoping that Robo turns out just fine. I was doing the irish jig at work when I found out he was a Browns’ pick (exactly as I had predicted).
The WR screens are perfect for him if the players execute it better. Brady could’ve done a good job throwing it to him too.
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
Yes, if executed properly, you have Cribbs one-on-one with at WORST a OLB, and I trust him to break that tackle or run by/through the guy for 5 yards everytime.
Problem is, they have to be run in the correct situation, which it seemed was Daboll’s weakness.
so that he could catch it on the run and do what he does best – run with authority.
I think the screens were set up so that he wouldn’t have to catch it on the run, which appears to be what he does not at all.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I think Cribbs should not play WR at all, actually.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m with Johnny. Just because Cribbs is the best return man inn the league does not make him a viable WR; nice to have for gadget plays though. His strength (more RB than WR) should let him line up in some odd places more like the backfield- just needs a bit of invention.
I did a Gaelic jig the morning after the draft (I didn’t stay up after mack) when I saw Robiskie’s write-up.
Anyone else think we let Joe J go a year to early? Even with a banged up knee I think he’d have been a great mentor. Player-Coach if you will.
"The Braylon vaccine- one jab and you'll never catch anything ever again"
Well no one gave JJ a shot after he was released by us. Maybe he was that banged up.
Having said that I really liked him and cutting him was a bummer.
Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.
He was playing at under conract value for his hometown team- maybe after the Browns cut him he thought “stuff this” and got on with his life.
Struck me as the sort of character that might have used his NFL money sensibly and will move on into a regular sort of job without the all-too frequent bankruptcies and celebrity shenanigans?
Anyone know?
"The Braylon vaccine- one jab and you'll never catch anything ever again"
JJ aside…he might have just been done by that point…Cribbs as a return man and an occasional RB I think will pay big dividends. We need to get much more creative in our wildcat (whatever you want to call it)…use him there…and actually bring him in occasionally in our normal offensive sets with Vickers blocking. Have him work it up inside/outside…
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 4:44 AM EST up reply actions
…3rd down situations too…He’s not got the greatest hands but I guarantee running him out into the flat is gonna draw some serious attention. AND he can throw it ..not really what we want him to do but as long as we remind our opponents he can do it…well, that’s enough. His attributes are just as beneficial as a decoy/threat. Actually Im not so sure we even need another power back given our line/fb play. Davis aside I do think we need another quality running back, now that’s a 3 headed monster.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 4:50 AM EST up reply actions
…but again…we need another serious look at Davis.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 4:51 AM EST up reply actions
Yes; given that we don’t seem to need any real all-pros at RB I’m really hopeful that Davis will contribute something next year.
I’m very keen on the value of a decoy. I’m also worried about overworking or even breaking him. His value on ST is enormous as he’s not just a returner.
"The Braylon vaccine- one jab and you'll never catch anything ever again"
I’m also worried about overworking or even breaking him.
That’s HIS issue. He’s gonna get paid. No team should go into a season worried about overuse or injury. If it happens it happens…but so be it. We have to build for far more than just Cribbs.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
We need to indicate to teams we are gonna put him in wherever and whenever we feel like it. If he gets hurt, well…he gets hurt… that would seriously suck…of course…but we’re still gonna use him as much as we feel like we need to to give ourselves the best chance to win.
My biggest issue with Cribbs is using him as a RB and return man and NOT a WR.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
No coach is going to waste a roster spot on a guy who can’t play just because he’s a good mentor to young kids. That’s what they pay coaches for. As skipkirk said, considering that no other team picked up Joe J last year I really don’t think he could have helped the Browns at all. I know fans love him because he’s from Cleveland but that doesn’t mean we waste a roster spot on him all year long.
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 29, 2010 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
to be fair he was a pretty good fit for our team needs.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Kevin Walter of the Texans would be the perfect fit as a starter opposite Massaquoi and as a mentor to all the young talent at the position.
Walter would be a “Joe Jurevicius-like” addition to the team.
http://dawgscooper.blogspot.com/
Dawg Scooper: An Unofficial Cleveland Browns Source
I would not say he was terribly mediocre. His stats were affected by 2 things.
1. An injury that hampered him the first few games (and he only played in 14 games)
2. A lack of targets that were just going to Andre Johnson.
Walter is a possession receiver who can get open fairly well. he however was getting a lot less targets because andre johnson was getting a career high # of targets. walter is a very good posession receiver and was 4th in the league in catch rate. he caught just about every catchable ball thrown his way.
I would not call that terribly mediocre.
he was not targeted as much in recent years. he was still getting open about as much (but a little less at first b/c of the injury). most of the targets were going to other receivers.
before his injury, owen daniels was on pace to set a career high in targets. he had been pretty even with walter in targets in ‘08 in that offense, but walter was getting significantly less and daniels was getting significantly more. there were also several more targets going to 3rd and 4th WRs. this is partially b/c of walter’s injury and maybe partially b/c while he was gone, they found a rythm with the QB.
when walter was thrown the ball, he was very good, but he was targeted much less than in previous years. his average amount of targets per game in ’07 and ’08 were about 6.5. this year he had around 5. that is 1.5 less balls thrown his way. if you give him the amount of targets he had the previous 2 years, the stats are very similar (except more catches and less ypc).
you cannot fault walter b/c of the emergence of owen daniels. you also cannot fault him b/c they finally had a viable 3rd receiver in jacoby jones. before that their 3rd WR position was kind of a joke but jones emerged and stole 40 targets when he had less than 10 the year before. slaton, when healthy, was also used a lot more in the passing game.
on a bad team, where he gets more targets, he can regain his old form.
I am not faulting him, I just am not of the mindset to make excuses for guys when they aren’t producing. Sometimes there is a legitimate reason, but it is enough to approach with skepticism.
Terrell Owens: Always thought this guy got a bad rap. But at this point, he is way past his prime.
Showboating and being a bit of a tool isn’t that bad (see Chad Johnson) but the Eagles…man that was absolutely terrible how he handled that.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
I think TO has a thing were if he feels he’s not getting the respect/etc. that he deserves he shuts down socially and becomes a distraction. Although he sucked this year I don’t remember him being a problem. In Philly I thought his problems came after the Super Bowl.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I think TO has a thing were if he feels he’s not getting the respect/etc. that he deserves he shuts down
Then we don’t want/need him.
Hey, we don’t need choir boys, but we don’t need that kind of BS either. Braylon “has a thing where if he feels he’s not getting the respect/etc. that he deserves…” too.
Anyways, TO played great in the Super Bowl…but I remember most him throwing Mcnabb under the bus after the SB and calling a presser doing pushups in his driveway with his agent. Sure he wasn’t a problem this year…but I think he realizes the writings on the wall…he’s pretty much done. If he felt like he had any leverage he would have taken it. At this point, he could maybe help a contender as a 2 or 3…but really we dont have much use for him where we are.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:51 AM EST up reply actions
….or his salary.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:51 AM EST up reply actions
No on Marshal
The guy can fool you for a while and act nice, then the inner a hole comes out. We got a pretty good team of guys that are not problems, but are short on talent. Bring in more good guys with talent rather then idiots with problems who happen to have a lot of talent.
Brandon Marshall gets a bad rap. He has never been an a-hole in the locker room before this season. Maybe I would give it more credence but there seemed to be a lot of unhappy people in that locker room this season.
Yeah he was a moron off the field, but he has only been pressed with charges twice and one of those times the charges were dropped.
He is by no means a great guy, but he is far from a player we have to ignore. Talent outweighs the downside IMO.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
not saying i disagree with the sentiment of your post, but for all of his off-field troubles pacman jones has only been pressed with charges once or twice i think, so i don’t know how much stock you want to put into that.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2010 8:14 AM EST up reply actions
Most of Marshall’s issues come from spousal abuse.
I am by no means saying slapping your old lady is cool. But it is in a lot of cases it’s a he-said/she-said case. I posted a link somewhere on this website before about Marshall’s woman. She ain’t no saint herself.
PacMan Jones on the other hand has had shootings and fist fights with his own personal security. When it comes bat sh*t crazy, no one is in PacMans universe.
PacMan Jones is a piece of garbage. He is a hot button issue for me. He is the reason that a bouncer in Las Vegas is no longer able to walk. The guy goes into clubs and acts like a complete ass and then fights/shoots others when he is asked to leave. I have been in the security/personal security field for years. I have been shot at once, and take it from me, it is by no means a laughing matter. Just because you go into a place of business as a customer doesn’t give you the right to slap dancers or fight other patrons. The guy has an issue with authority and would rather handle his business with handguns and fists rather than words.
PacMan belongs in jail and the fact that he isn’t there yet is mind blowing to me.
notes
I wasn’t saying that you believe that PacMan should be on a NFL field, and once again, don’t slap women.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 30, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
i see the differences, and i wasn’t trying to say they were on the same level, pacman is definitely an ass. I also realize that the spousal abuse can be a he-said, she-said issue, but much like you have personal experience with security which makes you dislike pacman more, my girlfriend had a abusive father, so spousal abuse isn’t something i take lightly at all.
notes
Not trying to say you take spousal abuse lightly, and also not trying to say marshall might not be a victim of false accusations, its just a hot-button issue for me.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2010 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
Men who beat women should be dragged out in to the street and shot after having their manhood chewed off by rabid dogs with dull teeth.
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 30, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Marshall’s spouse has come out and said she accused him of things he didn’t do.
I’m not saying he is completely clean, and I also disagree with B19K that he would be worth it to us. That said, he isn’t as guilty as reports would have indicated.
ok, i admittedly haven’t dug very deep into the situation, and until someone mentioned it a week or two ago, i wasn’t even aware anything had happened.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 31, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
You forgot the Tight End, he´s a wide receiver.
Overall, what you want at wide receiver is an arsenal, with diverse skill sets.
I think Mohamed Massaquoi will be a good bread and butter wide out. Most of the great ones weren´t exceptionally fast. Usually they´re deceptive, have great feel for the right routes and have hands like glue. Speed and toughness must be sufficient though, and I think Mogwai Massacre has it.
Then you have what I call the classic flanker, a guy for quick routes and underneath patterns, like Wes Welker. I think Mike Furrey fits the mold, I´ve seen him make catches like a real cat.
Next up, is the speedster. We don´t have one. Tim Brown, Joey Galloway…they´re hard to throw to, but if you get in cinch it can break games for you.
The other one I look for is the Jump Ball artist, where you just put the ball up and expect them to come down with it. Usually tall wiry guys who can, well, jump. Check Brandon Lloyd deep in the Broncos depth chart for example.
Then, the vaunted possession receiver, usually implemented on third and sometimes fourth downs. Anyone remember Tom Waddle from the Bears? This guy flat out gets hit sometimes.
Finally my specialty, the FREAKY FLANKER. As the name implies the flanker flanks your offensive alignment, he lines up anywhere between the offensive tackle and the side line, usually a few yards off the line of scrimmage, in the backfield so to speak. In my version this guy would be kind of a freakish runner. I envision someone like Marshawn Lynch, Leonard Weaver or Steven Jackson. In other words this guy would be like a hybrid between a bullish runningback and a more athletic tight end. You could pitch it to him as a third runningback, hand it off on reverse patterns on end arounds, or present the defense with a scary guy to tackle on short passes. You know, this guy is a scary runningback lining up outside the tackles.
Finally, we have the good old tight end, the big guy who can catch. Evan Moore was an awesome pick-up, and I like the huge Greg Estandia as an easy target in other situations.
If you follow my rationale we have:
Wide Out Mohamed Massaquoi
Classic Flanker and situational receiver Mike Furrey
Classic Tight End Evan Moore
Big Tight End Greg Estandia
We need:
Speedster WR
Jump Ball WR
Possession WR
Freaky Flanker
Heheh.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Finally my freakin’ specialty, the FREAKY FLANKER. As the name implies the freaky flanker flanks your offensive alignment freakily, and then freaks you out by lining up anywhere between the offensive tackle and the goddamn freakin’ sideline…usually a few yards off the line of freakin’ scrimmage. This guy would be kind of a f*ckin’ freakish runner…. so to speak. em>
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Since Lynch, Weaver, and Jackson are all under contract for next season, who would you pursue for the freaky flanker position for next year?
You guys glad we didn’t draft this SOB?
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 29, 2010 1:51 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Not to make light of that…(I got one last year)…but that really doesn’t bother me…Im still unhappy we didn’t draft him .
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
His fine is only $500!!!
Here in CA, my first one was $1400, and my second was $2400.
Both coming home from golfing. Was never pulled over on suspicion.
First one, stick on my WS-6 started acting up and I pulled over. Cop came to check me out. Blew a .1
Second time, some jerk off rear ended me and cop was right there. Blew a .05
And, ironically, my first offense occurred on 6-6-06.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 29, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, i know a lot of people don’t view drinking and driving as seriously as i do, but i think the laws about drinking and driving are the only drug laws that aren’t strict enough.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
I actually find drinking and driving very serious. However, a .05 is practically nothing which is why I made the luck comment.
oh i know, i wasn’t referring to any posts in particular. .05 is maybe a drink or two, like you said.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2010 8:16 AM EST up reply actions
whats the limit in CA? .05 would not have been a DUI in ohio
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
It’s .08
You can’t have any alcohol on your breath during the probation period, which is 3 years. Therefor I got busted with an .05
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 29, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
And I only had a few more months to go in that probation period. It’s quite humorous.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 29, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Most of these are as of 2001.
- Still the limit in 2007.
Alabama .08%
Alaska .08%
American Samoa (Very small island, few roads)
Arizona .08%* / .04%* (commercial drivers)
Arkansas .08%
California .08%*
Colorado .08%*
Connecticut .1%
Delaware .1%
District of Columbia .08%*
Florida .08%
Georgia .08%
Guam .08%
Hawaii .08%
Idaho .08%
Illinois .08%
Indiana .08%
Iowa .08%
Kansas .08%
Kentucky .08%
Louisiana .08%
Maine .08%
Maryland .08%
Massachusetts .08%
Michigan .1%
Minnesota .1%
Mississippi .1%
Missouri .08%
Montana .1%
Nebraska .08%
Nevada .1%
New Hampshire .08%
New Jersey .1%
New Mexico .08%
New York .1%
North Carolina .08%
North Dakota .1%
Northern Marianas Islands (unknown at this time)
Ohio .1%
Oklahoma .08%
Oregon .08%*
Pennsylvania .1%
Puerto Rico .08%
Rhode Island .08%
South Carolina .1%
South Dakota .1%
Tennessee .1%
Texas .08%
Utah .08%
Vermont .08%
Virginia .08%
Virgin Islands .08%
Washington .08%
West Virginia .1%
Wisconsin .08%
Wyoming .08%
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks to the code the start of the post is somewhat crazy.
a * by the year means that the limits were changed as of 2007.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
So, do we all agree that Badoll needs to go away? I think this guys stinks way to badly, and will never be a decent offensive coordinator. Who would we get? I’m a fan of OU (That’s Oklahoma), since I do live in Texas. I really like someone way outside the box, but too many Ohio State fans here would not be able to handle it.
Mike Leach (used to coach at OU)
Yep, him. I see him on the tube every week for years here and this guy is an offense genious! I dont see Iron Mike going this direction, but it would be sweet to see a 500+ yard passing game on the squealers vaunted defense.
I’m still a Cardiac Kid fan! I have been a loyal Browns fan in Texas, which isn’t easy, for many years. i just want the organizations retartedness to stop.
The All-America Football Conference was created in June of 1944 to compete against the NFL. Even though the league outdrew the NFL in attendance, the continuing dominance of the Cleveland Browns led to the league's downfall.
Daboll should have been gone yes…but Holmgren is one of the few who deserves the benefit of the doubt. I feel like Daboll’s gonna be the first to go if there’s any lack of success early on. Mangini needs at least 1 fall guy.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
please don’t use stupid nicknames (badoll) and please stop assuming we make nfl decisions based on college allegiances. I don’t want Mike Leach, and it has nothing to do with what college football teams i like.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
He’ll go early on if there’s issues.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
It isn’t that OSU fans won’t take rival college’s coaches or players on the Browns. If you keep using that (bad) logic, you might start getting called “Braylon”, and I don’t wish that upon anyone.
Mike Leach locked a kid in a closet when he has a concussion. That’s just not going to go over well. He also is 100% absolutely positively committed to the passing game, which is the weakness in our personnel right now. His offense would arguably not work in the NFL, although I am a believer that “college” offenses will work to some extent in the league.
Give me Norm Chow, Bob Stoops, Brian Kelly, or someone else who hasn’t just been fired for mishandling a kid with a concussion.
You really should trust Holmgren more.
I don’t care what Mike Leach did in college in terms of behavior.we need to look at how he runs his offense. I just don’t see how it fits with us at this particular time.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 29, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t care what Mike Leach did in college in terms of behavior.
If he punched this kid in the face before shooting him in the kneecap and telling him to get out on the field, it would be relevant to everyone. If he didn’t do anything wrong at all, he’d still be a head coach and we’d all want him.
There is a line, and he crossed it, IMO. You are welcome to draw your own line, my point is that you should care what he did in college. I don’t want a coach who will do that kind of thing. That’s just asking for trouble and underperforming players.
and in the pros its asking for a beating from your players
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jan 31, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
Besides, Leach coached at Texas Tech . . . since when are they a rival of Ohio State? Did we join the Big 12 and I missed it?
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 29, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know what you're talking about
When he was with the Packers Holmgren had Sterling Sharpe followed by Antonio Freeman. You can’t get much more elite than that.
You are right about Sharpe. but he was inherited by Holmgren and only lasted 3 seasons before having to retire.
Freeman wasn’t elite. He was a creation of Favre
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
No receiver is a creation of Favre
Yeah he’s a high quality quarterback but you have to have great hands to be able to catch passes the way he threw them. Freeman was absolutely an elite reciever, he led the NFL in yards. Is Randy MOss not an elite reciever because he has TOm Brady throwing to him? Is Reggie Wayne not elite because Peyton’s throwing to him? Is Vincent Jackson not elite because Phillip Rivers is throwing to him? A quarterback can’t magically make a reciever open.
by Donald Driver on Jan 29, 2010 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
Sidney Rice.
You lose.
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 29, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
But he got exponentially better due to Favre.
If I hear "There's always next year" one more time...
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 30, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
If if you take that all in Freeman wasn’t elite. He had one elite year (‘98) but that doesn’t make him an elite player.
He had 1,000 yards 3 times in 9 seasons and more than 9 TD’s twice.
He isn’t elite, he was Rob Moore.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 30, 2010 1:54 AM EST up reply actions
I wouldn’t consider Jackson to be elite. He’s pretty good though.
And neither of those receivers could put up good numbers without a good QB. Moss in Oakland is a good example. T.O. in Buffalo… etc.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 30, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Moss had over 1,000 yards in his first season in Oakland
when he was almost trying. T.O. still had 850 yards this year despite awful quarterbacking and being on his last legs.
by Donald Driver on Jan 30, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
What he have? 1,001 yrds? A TD here and there? His next season was horrible. And now with a good QB, he’s awesome again
If I recall right, TO had a couple good games this year. Only broke 50 yrds a few times. If Edwards wasn’t downright horrible, TO would have broke 1,000.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 30, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
whats a wide reciever?!?!?!....and whats a Quarterback?!?!?!
well we can deal with the fact that having a QB is not going to happen in this years draft….so if the CB Haden is there we take him instantly!!!!…..we can play crapy in’10 and draft a QB then…maybe we should get another 2nd round WR if there is one or even a HB
why would we want the team to play like shit in order to draft a QB next year? i want the team to play well all of the time. also, with the improvement shown in the last quarter of the season, a new and knowledgeable staff, 11 draft picks, and a last place schedule (again), i could see us winning 6 or 7 games next year. if there is an elite QB available in next year’s draft, he’ll go before we’d be picking.
.we can play crapy in’10 and draft a QB then
No thanks. I’ve had enough of crappy. I’ll settle for mediocre at this point, something that should be attainable next year hopefully.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 30, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions

























