Around the Pound (1/31): Pluto Talks About the Dismal Second Rounders and the Harrison/Vickers Combination

by Chris Pokorny on Jan 31, 2010 4:20 PM EST in General News Comment 13 comments

When the Pro Bowl kicks off tonight, we'll be one week away from seeing this year's Super Bowl between the Indianapolis Colts and the New Orleans Saints. Both teams definitely deserve to be there as they were the No. 1 seeds in their respective conferences during the 2009-2010 campaign.

In today's edition of Around the Pound, we take a look at Terry Pluto's Sunday column, some notes on former members of the Browns an their coaching careers, and more...

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Pluto: Second-Rounders and Vickers' Impact

Pluto had two points to make in his column today. The first one was about the failure the Browns have had in drafting players in the second round. While Mangini's picks from last year are still up-in-the-air and D'Qwell Jackson and Eric Wright were quality picks, the rest of the crop hasn't been too rewarding:

The second round has been a big problem since the team returned in 1999. From 1999 to 2002, the Browns took four receivers in a row: Kevin Johnson, Dennis Northcutt, Quincy Morgan and Andre' Davis. Only Johnson was worthy of being picked that high. ... In 2003, Butch Davis delivered linebacker Chaun Thompson in the second round. Most believed he was a fourth-round or lower talent, and he played like it. In 2004, Davis picked Sean Jones, a so-so safety. In 2005, Phil Savage took a safety that he hoped would be better than Jones, but Brodney Pool has been sidetracked by concussions and inconsistent performances. Savage's biggest mistake in this second-round area was the Williams trade.

In comparison, how has new general manager Tom Heckert fared with his second-round picks?

Here is a list of Heckert's recent second-round picks in Philly: 2009: RB LeSean McCoy (637 yards, 4.1 yards per carry as a rookie). 2008: WR DeSean Jackson (made the Pro Bowl this year). 2007: Kolb. 2006: T Winston Justice (who sat behind three-time Pro Bowl player Shawn Andrews for three years, but started 16 games this year). Beckman's point is, "Why not let Heckert do his job?"

In Pluto's second point, he discusses the impact that FB Lawrence Vickers had on the team's strong running game to close out the season:

Vickers also dueled with coach Eric Mangini early in the season and saw his playing time cut. But he began to buy into Mangini's discipline and paid greater attention to the different blocking assignments. By the end of the season, the Browns believed Vickers was one of the best fullbacks in the NFL.

In the rest of Pluto's column, he talks about how profootballfocus.com ranks the members of the Browns' offensive line on an individual basis. You might be surprised to hear how low Eric Steinbach is ranked.

Another Buddy of Holmgren's Getting Set to Join

The Browns are reportedly close to bringing former Seahawks offensive coordinator Gil Haskell on board as a special adviser to Mike Holmgren. Exactly what would Haskell's job be?

Haskell, 66, is expected to be appointed as an adviser to the Browns president. In that capacity, he may be called on to conduct a thorough evaluation of the Browns' offense and have major input in the direction it takes in the second season of coach Eric Mangini.

Haskell was the Seahawks' coordinator during the successful Shaun Alexander era. If he can provide some input to improve the offensive gameplan next season, mainly with regard to pass plays, then it sounds like another fine addition to the club. I'd like to see the bill for bringing all these guys to Cleveland though. It can't be very cheap to lure so many people with years of NFL experience, on top of Holmgren and Heckert.

Palmer Retiring, Byner to Jaguars

Former Browns head coach Chris Palmer has retired from the NFL. Palmer served as the quarterbacks coach with the New York Giants for the past three years, helping guide QB Eli Manning to a Super Bowl victory over the New England Patriots. The Browns were 5-27 during his reign.

Former Browns RB Earnest Byner was unexpectedly fired as the running backs coach of the Tennessee Titans. Considering Chris Johnson's successful season last year, Byner himself remains puzzled with the decision:

"If I'm a boss, I want someone to tell me what they're thinking, tell me about the position," Byner said. "We disagreed sometimes; we agreed other times. Nobody bit their tongue, nobody felt like they had to bite their tongue. … All of us had our opinions at different points. If I'm a head coach, that's what I want."

No worries for Byner though, who quickly found himself a job with the Jacksonville Jaguars a day or so later.

Off-Beat Notes

I'll miss seeing QB Kurt Warner in the NFL. One thing quickly comes to mind though: we're going to see a new NFC West Champion next season. I don't see Matt Leinart being able to lead the offense in the same manner; it should be the 49ers' division to take next year.
On the NFL Network, I've been watching their special on recapping the recent Super Bowls. It's a nice refresher and a way to recap all of the close contests that have taken place over the last decade. The Colts' victory over the Bears was really the last "comfortable" Super Bowl victory.
SB Nation will be represented at the Super Bowl this season:

"Joel Thorman of Arrowhead Pride is going on behalf of SBNation.com, Brad Wells of Stampede Blue is actually taking a road trip from New York to Miami to cover the Super Bowl from a Colts perspective (he stopped in DC recently) and Dave Cariello of Canal Street Chronicles is going down to cover the Super Bowl pretty much the day of the big game."

All three writers should have tremendous coverage on their sites and on SB Nation.com. I'll try to link to some of their special pieces in upcoming editions of Around the Pound.
When I start having dreams about LOST, I know the premiere date is getting close.
We'll have an open thread for the Pro Bowl game later tonight. I don't expect many people to stop by, but if you feel like chiming in a comment or two, feel free to. Joshua Cribbs and Joe Thomas will be taking part in the game.

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Comments

You might be surprised to hear how low Eric Steinbach is ranked.

I’m really not. He was terrible in pass pro for a good portion of the games.

by gahnki on Jan 31, 2010 4:56 PM EST reply actions

Here is a list of Heckert’s recent second-round picks in Philly: 2009: RB LeSean McCoy (637 yards, 4.1 yards per carry as a rookie). 2008: WR DeSean Jackson (made the Pro Bowl this year). 2007: Kolb. 2006: T Winston Justice (who sat behind three-time Pro Bowl player Shawn Andrews for three years, but started 16 games this year).

Damn.

by emily522 on Jan 31, 2010 5:34 PM EST reply actions

Heckert picks the best player available in the second. When he sees a steal, he snatches him up. All of those are first round talents that fell

by The Licensed Pessimist on Feb 1, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions

That’s a good quesion about how much these new guys are making. To me it looks like Randy really wants to start winning.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Jan 31, 2010 11:19 PM EST reply actions

Where are all those people questioning his will to win now? Soccer team jokes?

Question his ability to hire good football people all you want, the man knows what his job should be: cut big fat checks and get out of the way.

by rufio on Feb 1, 2010 4:04 AM EST up reply actions

I read in a yahoo sports

that there is speculation that Holmgren will be the BRowns HC by this time next year. I’m going to agree on that notion. That’s why he didn’t replace Mangenius this year, because it would have meant hiring a new coach for the next 3 years. Its much easier to just fire the coach mid-season and name himself as interim.

by Jcrew1179 on Feb 1, 2010 12:34 AM EST reply actions

I don’t think Mangini is going anywhere. But anything can happen.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Feb 1, 2010 1:20 AM EST up reply actions

1. Failure to draft good players in the second round since 1999.
What can you say? I don´t assume that they failed to draft good players, or the scouting reports were shoddy. I assume these players failed. So either there was a very high standard, or these guys felt compelled to take their second round contracts and run for the hills, for whatever reason.
2. Brodney Pool has the proportions I like in a cornerback. I´ve heard his speed is sub-standard though. And if you´re looking for a physical cornerback, like I am, a recorded history of adverse post concussive symptoms does not bode well.
D´Quell Jackson is a heat seeker, had he not been injured this would have been exposed during last season.
Eric Wright is a coverage only defensive back. He´s talented at keeping just enough distance.
3. The Eagles make players work. They choose guys with an undeniable athletic skill set, with just enough toughness and determination to impress the fans, and find ways for them to succeed. In short, they make sure these guys´ performances end up justifying their draft day positioning. That´s not the Browns model.
4. Lawrence Vickers is only a blocking fullback, giving him the ball on dives is not a good idea. That is way too one-dimensional. There are more faster, more powerful fullbacks than him. The team´s lack of success and the consequent thirst for good news by the fans, has lead to that extreme over-evaluation.
5. I want Eric Steinbach at center, but #83 amongst guards!?!?!?! I´m surprised these guys can look at themselves in the face while looking into the mirror in the morning.
Alex Mack will be a second rate guard on a losing team in the short term future. All hype from the moment he got the Draddy trophy, California is nasty that way.
Rex Hadnot is nothing special. And you can almost sense how they gleefully rank the annual shue-in Joe Thomas #1, but making sure the wily veteran on the other side barely misses the half way mark at #33, amongst the 64 ranked players. Good enough to justify being competitive, but bad enough to make sure we draft that other tackle next year. These guys have an agenda, and honesty isn´t part of the equation.
6. Geez, I think we have lost track of who is hiring who here. I don´t think Mike Holmgren asked for the extra help. I think we are witnessing the first astringents. Someone is hell-bent on proving we are badly connected since Mike Mangini came on board.
7. Big O Randy Lerner is in charge of this franchise. It is entirely up to him, who will compile the draft board, and make the ultimate decisions.

by mooncamping on Feb 2, 2010 11:01 AM EST reply actions

I don´t assume that they failed to draft good players, or the scouting reports were shoddy. I assume these players failed.

I don’t assume either. True, A player might fail individually through no fault of the F.O., however a team that generates a fairly consistent record of selecting players that do fail bears scrutiny…as it is their job to select more players that succeed than fail.

D´Quell Jackson is a heat seeker, had he not been injured this would have been exposed during last season.

‘Exposed’ usually has a negative connotation…but I’m assuming you mean he would have been revealed to have been very aggressive and a playmaker. I agree, and he was showing that ability before being injured.

Lawrence Vickers is only a blocking fullback, giving him the ball on dives is not a good idea. That is way too one-dimensional. There are more faster, more powerful fullbacks than him. The team´s lack of success and the consequent thirst for good news by the fans, has lead to that extreme over-evaluation.

I didn’t see anywhere in the article in which Vickers was referred to as anything other than a blocking back. Thankfully we have seen the end of the ‘Vickers split wide’ days of Maurice Carthon.

Alex Mack will be a second rate guard on a losing team in the short term future.

What makes you think the Browns have any intention of moving Mack to Guard when he has proven his ability to play the position he was drafted for? Generally centers are drafted in the first round explicitly because they are good Centers…a very coveted position to have on the OL.

Rex Hadnot is nothing special. And you can almost sense how they gleefully rank the annual shue-in Joe Thomas #1, but making sure the wily veteran on the other side barely misses the half way mark at #33, amongst the 64 ranked players. Good enough to justify being competitive, but bad enough to make sure we draft that other tackle next year. These guys have an agenda, and honesty isn´t part of the equation.

Why would looking for another quality long term OT be an ‘agenda’ or a bad thing?

Geez, I think we have lost track of who is hiring who here. I don´t think Mike Holmgren asked for the extra help.

I believe Holmgren is exactly who brought Gil Haskell on board as a special adviser. Do you think Lerner is going to give Holmgren the keys to the proverbial castle and then Holmgren is going to be ok with Lerner tagging him with a ‘special assistant’ he didn’t ask for or want?

I think we are witnessing the first astringents. Someone is hell-bent on proving we are badly connected since Mike Mangini came on board.

I have no idea what this means. An ‘astringent’ is a medicine tending to draw together or constrict tissues So… You’re saying Gil Haskell is a means to draw together or constrict tissues that are badly connected since Mike (?) Mangini came on board?

Do you mean Eric Mangini…or is that some sort of conglomeration of Mike Holmgren and Eric Mangini? Who and why would someone be hell-bent on proving the browns are badly connected? And how would this be accomplished by bringing in an adviser who has a relationship with Holmgren and had worked under him before? Why and how…uh..I mean, just WHY would they…uh…ah…f*ck it…Why does the sun come up? Or are the stars just pin holes in the curtain of night, who knows? What I do know, mooncamping… is that because you were born different, men will fear you… try to drive you away like the people of your village. Mooncamping, listen closely. You must learn to conceal your special gift and harness it…

"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren

by johnnyphoenix on Feb 2, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions

How much did you drink to type all this up?

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Feb 2, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions

I don’t know about you, but I took a shot after reading both.

The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.

by North Coast Flea on Feb 2, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions

If this be true, Oh Sage, then I must decide whether to seek council with Odin, Zeus or Jahwe!

by mooncamping on Feb 3, 2010 9:48 AM EST up reply actions

On a soccer note, Aston Villa really made waves when they signed O’Neill as manager, who was widely tipped as the best British (Isles) manager & the heir apparent to Ferguson at Man United. He’d headed North of the border to build his stock (a well trodden roiute here- comparisons with NFL also-rans who head into the CFL to prove them back and come back to be stars).

Then Villa, a middling premiership team snapped hi up and hasn’t looked back.

The comparison is in pretty much his first move Lerner signed up a top, if not the top available manager to build his team. And left him to do the job. Interesting he didn’t quite do the same with the browns; ignore the different sports, O’Neill would only compare to a Dungy/Cowher/Gruden type not a “maybe this will work” Crennel/ Mangini/Davis (not sure who hired Davis).

"The Braylon vaccine- one jab and you'll never catch anything ever again"

by LondonBrown on Feb 3, 2010 4:30 AM EST reply actions