Browns Waive RB James Davis, Claim Patriots' RB
Per Adam Caplan: "Browns gave up on RB James Davis, waived him today. Claimed RB Thomas Clayton off waivers from the Patriots." Maybe we could get Davis on the practice squad still?
over 1 year ago
Chris Pokorny
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Any idea as to why?
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Oct 25, 2010 7:19 PM EDT reply actions
Just wasn’t very good I think. Liked the guy; hope he catches on somewhere.
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Oct 25, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
According to his twitter; “finally was granted my wish”…about an hour ago.
by Uriah33 on Oct 25, 2010 7:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Excuse the ignorance, but what is “PS”? Playing schemes? And why do you think that? Just curious; have no idea if you are right or not.
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Oct 25, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
OK. That makes perfect sense.
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Oct 25, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
or Pat Sajak
There's a new sheriff in town, his name's McCoy
by da36chamberz on Oct 25, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
CALIENTE POCKET!
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow.
Good luck to him. I think all he needs is a chance.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 25, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup, I hope to see him get a chance somewhere, but with Hillis really shining and the coaches putting Bell in for the other carries, he wasn’t getting that here.
Anderception [an·der·cep·tion] -noun
1. the logical end result of a Derek Anderson pass
not to mention Hardesty hopefully being back next year.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 25, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I know hardesty has yet to play in a regular season game but the idea of a backfield of Hillis and Hardesty is looking better and better.
by johnnyphoenix on Oct 25, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Let’s not get our hopes up yet. Maybe we’ll be pleasantly surprised when his knees don’t shatter next preseason.
I love now that Hillis is a beast, Hardesty’s health is a lot less, uh, depressing. I mean, I’d still love to see them both, but I don’t need to hold my breath for Hardesty. It’s hard to describe without sounding like I don’t care about Hardesty.
Anderception [an·der·cep·tion] -noun
1. the logical end result of a Derek Anderson pass
is now an inappropriate time to voice concerns about:
a) hillis’ longevity and/or effectiveness on the second go round through the league (i’m talking about next year)
b) hardesty as a long term option at rb for this (or any) team. too many leg injuries for the outlook to be particularly promising
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 25, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but how do you justify drafting a high round RB when a) we have bigger problems and b) you have 2 backs like Hillis and Hardesty.
no, you’re right. i’m not suggesting we do something specific about it — and definitely not early in the draft — but i get concerned about the rb position, especially considering the wr position is a cesspool.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 25, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think I would ever really be concerned about the running back position. it’s hard to find a stud, but it’s also hard to not find a guy who will at least get the job done. decent running backs are very easy to find.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 25, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 26, 2010 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I am concerned too. We’re thin at RB. Hillis can’t do it on his own, our 2nd round draft pick is on IR and we have a nobody and a career journeyman as backups. God help us if we lose Hillis.
by BuenosAires_Dawg on Oct 26, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember thinking this exact thought last year with Harrison and Davis.
by rebuilding year on Oct 26, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
This is just dumb in my opinion.
I hope Davis catches on elsewhere and succeeds when given a better chance than he had here in Cleveland.
Dawg Scooper: THE Cleveland Browns Blog
http://www.dawgscooper.net/
An online partner with Dawgs By Nature.
yes, it’s dumb to let go a third string running back when we have another high pick at the position coming back next year.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 25, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
People expected a lot from him.
I met a fairy today that granted me one wish. "I want to live forever," I said. "Sorry" said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"
"Fine" I said, "I want to die after the Browns win the Super Bowl !"
"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 25, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
and those people were misguided.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 25, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
so over half of the DBN board was misguided?
I met a fairy today that granted me one wish. "I want to live forever," I said. "Sorry" said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"
"Fine" I said, "I want to die after the Browns win the Super Bowl !"
"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 25, 2010 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
two things:
1. I have no idea how many people it was exactly, but I know we had plenty of people preaching caution. I was not one of them.
2. yes. but I think our optimism quickly faded once we were all brought back to earth. this season I feel like most of us had forgotten about him once preseason rolled around.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 25, 2010 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Simply put, yes. It’s not like we ever actually saw anything out of him, we just love our back ups here.
Fair enough
I met a fairy today that granted me one wish. "I want to live forever," I said. "Sorry" said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"
"Fine" I said, "I want to die after the Browns win the Super Bowl !"
"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 25, 2010 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Ha, the horn’s a shlong.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
the same place I do…
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
by bross09 on Oct 26, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Wikipedia?
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Oct 26, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
don’t besmirch the name of wikipedia.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 26, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this was great.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 26, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
117% of the time I have no idea where my percentages come from.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
64 percent of all the world’s statistics are made up right there on the spot.
Todd Snider – “Statistician’s Blues”
"If Brown is the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question." - Ryan
by woodsmeister on Oct 26, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
haha.
If I said I had no idea where it came from, I figured it was funnier if the % wasn’t possible.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I figured it was funnier if the % wasn’t possible.
-32% of people agree with you
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 26, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I also make up guesstimate percentages on the spot, but generally it’s obvious.
Anderception [an·der·cep·tion] -noun
1. the logical end result of a Derek Anderson pass
60% of the time, it works every time.
by Dawg Nuts on Oct 27, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I guess that depends on what you mean by “expected a lot from him.” I think many people thought he might be a good backup, but I don’t remember many people thinking that he’d be a good starting RB who gets 15-20 carries a game. So I’m not sure what you think people expected from him.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 26, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
There is a difference between expectations and hopes.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
Why is it dumb? What has Davis ever done to show that’s he’s any good?
We can draft another guy like him in the 6th round next year and take a chance that he’ll be better. As I mentioned with Jennings, backs like him and Davis are a dime a dozen. Nothing to get upset about losing.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 25, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Thomas Clayton was San Fran’s “James Davis” a year or two before James Davis was our “James Davis” (by that I mean a 6th round RB you take a chance on him possibly being good).
This guy isn’t that much better than Davis and he was cut too. what does that say about the expendability of players like that?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
He did break an 80 yard TD. Over a year ago. In the preseason. Against a Detroit team that was 0-16 the year before.
We should have signed him to a ten year contract.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 25, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Just thinking here, but I am kinda surprised we didn’t pull Danny Woodhead off waivers in front of the Pats — seems like a Mangini Guy™ and may have one OK in our offense. He’s been a perfect fit for the Pats (not that that means he would do good for us).
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Oct 25, 2010 8:08 PM EDT reply actions
Good luck James Davis, sorry to see you go.
The question now is, who is Thomas Clayton? Is he an upgrade to Davis?
There's a new sheriff in town, his name's McCoy
Probably because we play the patriots after the bye. He could give us some insight into some patriot schemes.
I’ve noticed us doing this from time to time this season. If the last few spots on your roster are interchangeable, why not use one to get some inside info?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 25, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
They know the Pats’ schemes.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Couldn’t we just get the tapes?
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
I guarantee the Pats out in new wrinkles every week. I was thinking more that they would have been around Belichick a lot and might be able to guess what he was thinking.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I was making a bad joke about the Patriots taping sidelines. Maybe, there’s some Browns fans in New England with big memory cards in their camera phones.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
Ah, the “Belichick cheats so bad, he illegally tapes his own team” joke. My bad.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I was thinking Mangini had his own copies. Figured it was a genetic trait passed through the Belichick tree.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
James davis had a shot and didn’t show much of anything.
At this point, if Clayton can give us any insight on the pats, he is much more valuable than Davis; a back with 13 career carries and only 6 games active out of a possible 23.
They seem like the same back; both are bigger guys with decent straight line speed. both have also have injury problems (davis got hurt last year, who knows whats going on this year, and he had some injury problems in college).
Since what davis brings is pretty replacable at this point, I will take the guy who can give us more in the short term (clayton)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
How does this leave us depth-wise? Hillis now has the bye to recover from the quad injury and Bell some time to learn the playbook but who is RB3 if there is an injury? Aside from this Clayton guy – who is obviously just a spy pickup. Is Jennings still on the practice squad?
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
we could go out tomorrow and sign a guy who was just as good as Davis if we felt like we needed to.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 25, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? New England has used a carousel of guys at RB this season and has settled on Benjarvus Green-Ellis and Danny Woodhead without this guy ever getting off the practice squad. How could he be better than Davis – who was at least active in a couple of games for us recently?
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
I stand corrected.
First stint with the Patriots
Clayton signed with the New England Patriots on June 11, 2010. He was waived on August 6, 2010, but re-signed on August 11, 2010. He was waived during final cuts on September 4, 2010.
First stint with the Browns
Clayton was signed to the Cleveland Browns’ practice squad on September 15, 2010.
Second stint with the Patriots
The Patriots signed Clayton off the Browns’ practice squad on September 30, 2010. He was waived on October 23, 2010.
Second stint with the Browns
Clayton was claimed off waivers by the Browns on October 25, 20
Still doesn’t say much that he was waived by the Pats, given all their injuries and general trouble at RB this season. If he was worth a shit – why woouldn’t they give him a shot?
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
Because the Pats have (had) three backs ahead of him all capable of putting up good numbers?
Pats: 4.1 yds/att and 111.2 yards/game
Browns:3.9 yds/att and 101.1 yds/game
As exciting as Hillis is to watch, the Pats get better production out of scrubs and Jets castoffs than we get out of Hillis. Like so many other positions on the Pats, running back is plug ‘n’ play.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
The Pats system thrives on the ability to put in nobodys that put up stupid numbers. And once they do that, their trade value sky rockets. Cassel? Cassel only works in the Pats system, not the Chiefs/ Pats system which is now pretty evident.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s because their play calling is solid and their o-line makes holes. Our o-line is struggling this year compared to where they should be. Of course it may be our play calling is still an issue. I know we won a whole 2 games but that does not change my mind on Daboll sucking.
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Brady being Brady and Delhomme/Wallace/McCoy being Delhomme/Wallace/McCoy, the Pats are a bit more balanced on offense than we are.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Very true. Still – play to your strengths or weaknesses accordingly. Still pissed about 40+ passes in the TB game I guess.
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Talib was out (replaced by a rookie UDFA I believe). I can understand why we were throwing the ball. It didn’t work, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a good idea.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
40+ with Jake Delhomme is never a good idea especially against a team that is used to his style of play. Given though we needed to see it first and now we know but we could have ran the ball when we were up. Ah well, hindsight I suppose.
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
i know he was a 6th round pick, but the mangini / kotnkus (sp) draft just keeps looking better and better huh? amirite!
thank goodness the H&H show came to town and took talent evaluation / drafting over to let mangini focus on what he’s good at … coaching. for the record, i’m a mangini fan … just not a fan of his talent acquisitions.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 25, 2010 11:37 PM EDT reply actions
While Mangini’s draft looks mostly busted, it’s also been said that the ‘09 draft class was horrid. Yes some good came out of it, and we found Alex Mack, but it wasn’t a good draft around the league.
Yeah, I’m definitely glad H&H took over, but hell, we got a future all-pro center out of one of the worst draft classes is a long time.
Worth it.
Anderception [an·der·cep·tion] -noun
1. the logical end result of a Derek Anderson pass
Also worth noting that Mangini acquired Roth and Stuckey and Moore and Benard. Four of our best players. I don’t think talent evaluation is a problem for Mangini. I think last year’s draft was thin.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Also got Porkchop and Coleman and understood that Williams, BQ, DA, BE and K2 were tapped dry and were no longer contributing to their fullest.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Outside of the first round in 2009, the draft was one of the worst I have ever seen. The only regret would probably be not taking Lesean McCoy.
Yeah, I wish we had grabbed either McCoy or Green with the Veikune pick.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Hindsight = 20/20
Veikune/Robo tied for worst picks from that draft.
"Of course, I can get a hell of a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."--Big Tom Callahan
Robo coming along. Just chill.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Whatever – get open and catch the ball. How long does he need to come along? He was drafted to make an impact right away, not come along 3 years later as a possible 3rd receiver option. Again, we could have grabbed another free agent and saved a draft pick. We passed on Mike Wallace (Pittsburgh) and Austin Collie (Ind). Just my opinion though.
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
WRs normally don’t jump into the NFL and make an impact. There are exceptions obviously, but usually it’s a whole different animal.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
That is true, but Robiskie has had tons of chances and has produced squadoosh.
I am comfortable calling him a bust.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 26, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Still too early.
his pick sexes put us over the top
by North Coast Flea on Oct 26, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Woah, Mr. Loses every bet and trade evaluation.
Chill.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
This is how you respond to a run of the mill football comment?
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 26, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I am comfortable calling him a bust.
I was responding to this. You’re terrible at these.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do you have to act like this? How does this promote good discussion?
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 26, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s promotes jokes and possibly useful memes at some point in the comment line. I think that’s good discussion.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 27, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Promotes jokes and possible useful memes? Are you serious?
Just stop trying to be funny and make jokes about other people, because it’s not funny and just makes you look like a jerk. This isn’t junior high school. You don’t need to make yourself look cool by putting down other people.
These kind of comments aren’t appropriate and won’t be tolerated any more.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 27, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just stop trying to be funny and make jokes about other people, because it’s not funny and just makes you look like a jerk. This isn’t junior high school. You don’t need to make yourself look cool by putting down other people.
These kind of comments aren’t appropriate and won’t be tolerated any more.
Ah, so you’ll yell at me but let Golan get on a rant about how someone needs to go to Sylvan Learning Center a few comments down?
Uh huh.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 27, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, stop being such a junior high school kid. Don’t worry about other people and just worry about yourself.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 28, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Just voicing my observation is all…
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
plus, the one positive that I kept hearing about him was he was the most “NFL-ready” WR in the draft. That is something we can grade after 23 games, and it’s a D- at best.
You are reading my signature.
Who said that? Mangini? Kokonis? Or was it Kiper?
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty much every draft analyst out there. Are you serious?
I met a fairy today that granted me one wish. "I want to live forever," I said. "Sorry" said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"
"Fine" I said, "I want to die after the Browns win the Super Bowl !"
"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 26, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
My point exactly.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
You have no point.
I met a fairy today that granted me one wish. "I want to live forever," I said. "Sorry" said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"
"Fine" I said, "I want to die after the Browns win the Super Bowl !"
"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 26, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure I do. Quit being intentionally obtuse.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously the point is that we drafted Robo based off of our own evaluations not those of Mel Kiper. Just because Mel Kiper said something, it doesn’t mean that our FO believed the same thing.
If they believed the same, then ok give him the d, but if not, then what Mel Kiper says has no relevance on the opinions or the evaluations of the Browns.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
They probably brought him in for a workout/interview. Especially considering the geography of it.
So instead of a view based on Mel Kiper’s second-hand view, they got a first person view.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
seriously, please elaborate. is it a knock on draft analysts as a whole? Kiper?
I’m not ready to throw Robiskie onto the trash heap right now, and I’ve read the articles studying WRs making “the leap” in their 3rd season.
However, based on what we’ve seen, and his competition at WR, I think we should have seen a bit more production out of the 2nd year, former 36th pick in the draft than we’ve had.
You are reading my signature.
The expectations for Robiskie (based on what draft experts like Kiper said) — that he was NFL ready and that he’d contribute from day one, aren’t necessarily the expectations Mangini & Co. had for Robiskie.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
that’s fair, but I stand by this:
However, based on what we’ve seen, and his competition at WR, I think we should have seen a bit more production out of the 2nd year, former 36th pick in the draft than we’ve had.
I’d like to think that Mangini, the ghost of Kokinis, and the current personnel department, while not expecting production on day 1, would kind of like to have seen it by day 417.
You are reading my signature.
My argument is not that Robiskie is a good pick. But in that entire draft what players did we really miss out?
Basically, is it that egregious that we whiffed on a player in a terrible draft class?
I’m not going to argue that. Browns weren’t the first, nor will they be the last, to miss on a draft pick.
it’s the unbridled optimism about Robiskie that grinds my gears. Seems there’s always a player or two on the roster that splits the DBN camp in half. At least in Jerome Harrison’s case, there were some concrete productive games to argue for him; with Robiskie, there’s a theory
You are reading my signature.
Personally, I don’t think I have unbridled optimism about him but I’m also not ready to write him off as a bust. I don’t think he’ll every be a really good starting WR in the NFL, but I’m hoping he can become a decent 3rd WR who we can count on for a few catches a game. I’d really like to see what he can do with a decent QB throwing to him (and MoMass, too).
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 26, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I think in the context of his talent level, our offense, and the stage of his development, there is hope for Robi. I think everyone saw his ceiling as being pretty low (solid #2) at the time of the draft.
I thought he was more “NFL-ready” than most WRs, his hands are good, he ran solid routes at OSU. I didn’t predict that Daboll would run the “we run every play ever created” offense, which would be a lot for any rookie to digest. Clearly, he was not Cleveland-Browns ready last year.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Neither was Daboll.
Thank you. I’ll be here all week.
"If Brown is the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question." - Ryan
by woodsmeister on Oct 26, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
If that is true, then Robiskie shouldn’t have been the 36th pick in the draft.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 26, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
In a normal year, yes, but I ask again, how many quality guys did we actually miss out on after pick 36? I think we need to throw our normal expectations out the window for 2009 draft.
I think there will be a few:
Britton, Byrd, Barwin (Yes, I know he is hurt but I still love his upside), Unger, McCoy, Loadholt, Vollmer, Sean Smith, Greene, Michael Johnson, Knighton, Tate, Wallace, Webb, Butler and Beckum.
Those are in the second and third rounds. I would trade Robo for all of them straight up.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 26, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s probably true if you trade straight up, but out of all those names I am really only losing sleep over McCoy and maybe Sean Smith. Loadholt is bad, Unger doesn’t make sense given that we selected Mack in the 1st. Mike Wallace in hindsight is a much better pick but if we take Wallace over Robiskie at the time, people would think we are crazy.
It’s not like there is a glaring list of quality players we missed.
by Roger Dorn on Oct 26, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Certainly the way Robiskie is playing is not what Mangini and Co. expected from him, and if so, as Bernie points out, you don’t take that guy there.
How would we ever know what Mangini expected from him? Shouldn’t the more realistic measure be that second rounders, especially high second rounders, are supposed to be starters if you are actually drafting well? Ascertaining and then somehow evaluating “the expectations of Mangini and Co.” are impossibly vague propositions.
by Western Reserve on Oct 26, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
yes. lets compare him to WRs taken in the 1st half of the second.
2008: Nelson (barely), Avery, and Royal were better by now, and Devin Thomas, Hardy, and Simpson have not been significantly better by that point than robo.
2007: Jarrett and rice were not significantly better (the only WRs in the first half).
Many WRs take a year or two to develop…and many of the teams where the guys didn’t develop right away do draft pretty well.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I am trying to argue against a blanket expectation for what a guy should be doing when picked in a certain round. The 2009 draft I think makes this clear.
Right. I think your approach is a bit generous in this case, but I see where you are coming from.
Trying to argue about “Mangini’s expectations” on the other hand is completely unknowable and seems a bit flimsy to me.
by Western Reserve on Oct 26, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
This start because rolub made a statement about NFL ready, which would be expectations, which would also be flimsy.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
Certainly the way Robiskie is playing is not what Mangini and Co. expected from him, and if so…you don’t take that guy there.
So our problem is that we can’t draft with hindsight? This does not make sense to me.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
No. It was argued that Robiskie’s current level of play may be living up to Mangini’s expectations and thus was a good pick after all. My counter argument is, if expectations of him really are on par with his performance, that’s not a guy you go after in the second round.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
No. It was argued that Robiskie’s current level of play may be living up to Mangini’s expectations and thus was a good pick after all.
This was never argued. Not once.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 27, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
The expectations for Robiskie (based on what draft experts like Kiper said) — that he was NFL ready and that he’d contribute from day one, aren’t necessarily the expectations Mangini & Co. had for Robiskie.
It seems to me, when you counter with that, after someone says he wasn’t a good pick at that spot, that you are suggesting the pick may be okay because Mangini’s unknowable expectations are low.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I was asked to elaborate on my prior post. I did. The point was that Mangini’s expectations for Robiskie may not have been the same as the expectations of the draft experts — that he was NFL ready.
Nothing about his current performance, no claims to knowledge regarding Mangini’s expectations, none of what you read in to my comment.
Simple statement of fact: Mangini may not have thought that Robiskie was NFL ready on draft day. That is it. All that I have said.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
I guess, like Bernie, I misinterpreted your mere “statement of fact” as a defense of the pick. Here’s how Bernie responded, to which I later alluded:
If that is true, then Robiskie shouldn’t have been the 36th pick in the draft.
In other words, if Mangini’s expectations were different from the draft analysts, you don’t take him there.
But, of course, you weren’t defending the pick, you were merely, very generously, sharing facts with everyone.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
But, of course, you weren’t defending the pick, you were merely, very generously, sharing facts with everyone.
Exactly right.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Hard to believe anyone would see it any other way. Thanks for the fact sharing! You are better than wikipedia.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Hard to believe that anyone could so completely fail to comprehend what they read. You never fail to surprise me WR.
If you care to continue this nonsense of yours, email me at myusername@gmail.com.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
You never fail to surprise me WR.
That’s actually somewhat flattering.
Nah, I’m good. No hard feelings.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
How would we ever know what Mangini expected from him?
We don’t. I never said otherwise.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 27, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Right, so your counter argument seems to me completely arbitrary.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me see if I can put this into words you can understand: I. AM. NOT. MAKING. A. COUNTER. ARGUMENT. NONE. OF. WHAT. YOU. READ. INTO. MY. POST. IS. THERE.
There’s probably a Sylvan Learning Center somewhere near your home. You might want to look into some remedial reading classes. Christ.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Did those type of temper tantrums work on your mom and dad? Is that why you are still acting that way?
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
In my defense, one poster asked you to clarify your point and another responded in a way that suggests he read your post in a not so dissimilar way as me. But I digress.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
come on. let’s be serious. robiskie sucks. maybe he won’t suck forever, but he sucks today. like, bad. he doesn’t start at wr on a team w/ one of the worst wr corps in recent nfl history. the burden of proof is on people who claim he doesn’t suck.
maybe he’ll get better, although there’s little evidence to support that possibility out of him so far, but today he is a bad nfl wr, which means the pick was bad, regardless of the quality of the draft.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
i’m agreeing w/ rolub here, to be clear.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
did rufio say somewhere above that he gets separation fairly often and just isn’t being thrown the ball?
I’m not trying to say Robi is fine, but I really think this is a QB issue as much as a WR issue. None of our wide outs are catching balls, and even terrible wide receivers should be catching more passes than our guys are. I think this has a lot to do with QB play, specifically that our QBs can’t make quick decisions.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 27, 2010 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s true, we basically play without throwing to wide receivers. The only thing this doesn’t account for is his inability so often to even find the field, or so it seems.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
he’s on the field, a lot. he’s just never thrown the ball.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 27, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Robiskie was our leading receiver last weekend. He led the team in receptions, yards, and targets.
The thing is we only passed for 85 yards as a team.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I understand, but isn’t a single game a bit anecdotal?
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s evidence that it’s possible that he has been open before, and been on the field before, and just wasn’t thrown the ball due to awful QB play.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 27, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is that we flat out suck at passing the ball.
It would be a lot more clear if Robi was putting up those numbers but played in an offense that was actually moving the ball or next to two other WRs who were going for 100+ yards/game.
When was the last time we passed enough that a WR could actually put up decent numbers? 2007?
I think this is a case where the numbers don’t tell the whole story. The tape needs to be the evaluation tool, and unfortunately the NFL doesn’t like to show us the WRs much.
I think it is clear that Robiskie is not Andre Johnson or Calvin Johnsonesque. I think if he were he would have ridiculously surpassed my expectations where we drafted him. I still think he can be a good #2 and a very good #3, and I don’t think the stats are useful in disproving that at this point.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Can’t argue with you there about how awful we are at passing the ball.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Take a look at Buffalo and Lee Evans. The guy basically did nothing for the past two years. Then Ryan Fitzpatrick comes in and Evans is lighting it up.
Buffalo’s WR corp probably caught more passes in the past three games with Fitzpatrick than the entire 2009 season under Trent Edwards.
I think you have to look at the QB not just the wide outs.
by Monsters of the Midway on Oct 27, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I prefer catch rate
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
by Villeslgr on Oct 27, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
buuuuuuuh!
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Oct 28, 2010 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed. Robo was supposed to be one of the top WR’s in that draft, possibly a first round pick. Usually when early round WR’s don’t do anything with their initial opportunities, they end up never panning out.
I met a fairy today that granted me one wish. "I want to live forever," I said. "Sorry" said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"
"Fine" I said, "I want to die after the Browns win the Super Bowl !"
"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 26, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Robo was supposed to be one of the top WR’s in that draft, possibly a first round pick.
I never heard Robiskie mentioned as a possible first round pick. Most people were surprised that the Browns took him as high as they did in the second round.
Usually when early round WR’s don’t do anything with their initial opportunities, they end up never panning out.
That’s not true at all, and we’ve been through the evidence many times before. Receivers are known for taking 2 to 3 years before really making an impact in the NFL, and that’s true for even great ones. Obviously there are exceptions, like Moss, but those are rare. Even first round picks at WR usually don’t do very much their first year or two.
It is concerning, however, about Robiskie’s lack of production and ability to even be on the field. But it’s really hard to judge our WR’s with the poor QB play that we’ve had over the past few years.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 26, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t remember ever hearing Robo mentioned as a 1st rounder but there was a lot of talk about him being the most “NFL ready” wide receiver in the draft.
I went back awhile ago and read through some of the draft reports and they sing his praises about route running, absorbing offenses, his hands, etc.
Robiskie’s lack of production is right there for everyone to see but it’s hard to fault the pick based on the information available at the time.
by Monsters of the Midway on Oct 26, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Robo was supposed to be one of the top WR’s in that draft, possibly a first round pick.
This is absurd. Even I thought we reached a little for him. I had him going mid-second round to a desperate/reaching team or late 2nd s a good pick.
Usually when early round WR’s don’t do anything with their initial opportunities, they end up never panning out.
How many of them played with QBs like DA and then got a legitimate franchise QB? If we don’t find that franchise guy, no WR outside of a freak of nature top-5 pick has a chance..
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
What do Mike Williams and Austin Collie have in common? Good quarterback play.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And they get open and make plays. A WR has to compliment a QB and vice versa. It can’t all be the QB. I mean, Braylon Edwards still drops passes and his QB situation improved. Romo is not that great but Ausin gets open and Williams makes plays on the ball. The All-Pro QB Theory is a little tired. It takes other people to step up sometimes.
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you really think Robo looks as mediocre as he has with Manning under center?
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably not as bad but he just doesn’t seem to get open or run routes as well as he should. And he does look slow regardless of what his stats say. I just think we could have done better than Robo, and I love OSU as much as the next guy. He was ranked too high and we have got nothing out of him.
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus with Manning he would have been cut as the other receivers would have looked that much better against him and name brand talent would come play for Manning.
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a whole lot of speculation.
I can’t think of a single receiver on the Colts that wasn’t homegrown. Not sure what you’re trying to get at with that argument.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
If you think he would have played better under Manning (speculation) I speculate the other receivers would also play that much better still leaving Robo looking like the bum. Yes Manning makes receivers better, but you still need talent and he has not shown it in Cleveland.
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Manning makes receivers better
Exactly.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
So until we get Manning what do we do with Robo?
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
We don’t necessarily need Manning so much as we need competent quarterback play and a true #1 receiver.
What do we do with Robo? We continue to develop him and to evaluate him. Like we do everyone at every position.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Like we keep developing and evaluating sub-par players while we rebuild? Like we developed Davis who got drafted and traded for what? Maybe I’m just jaded here but I’m not buying Robo. Plenty of half-ass 3rd receivers out there we could get or could have got. A wasted 2nd round pick.
by browndawgbacker on Oct 26, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Davis was a 6th round pick. He wasn’t expected to be any good, so he’s not a fair comparison to Robiskie at all. Players like Davis come and go all the time, so I don’t know why you seem to be upset about losing him.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 26, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
CJ had a monster rookie year with Orlovskly as the QB
I met a fairy today that granted me one wish. "I want to live forever," I said. "Sorry" said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"
"Fine" I said, "I want to die after the Browns win the Super Bowl !"
"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 26, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Calvin Johnson >>>> Brian Robiskie.
As much as you take what draft ‘experts’ say as gospel, I’d think you’d know this by now. Apples and Bowling Balls, as someone said earlier today.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
So you’re saying Robo wasn’t worth taking with an early pick. I can agree with that
I met a fairy today that granted me one wish. "I want to live forever," I said. "Sorry" said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"
"Fine" I said, "I want to die after the Browns win the Super Bowl !"
"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 26, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
He wasn’t worth taking with a top 5 pick. You don’t take guys who project as a number 2 or slot receiver that early. Everyone can agree with that. Even your draft ‘experts’.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Oct 26, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
So you’re comparing a player picked in the top 5 to a player picked in the second round?
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 26, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
*second round of a historically abysmal draft.
You could cherry pick and see we should have drafted Austin Collie, but that is the definition of cherry picking.
…but what would Collie be without peyton Manning?
I would say Jarett Dillard maybe. Dillard, like collie was a later rounder who put up huge college #s, had good hands, but did not posess an elite skill set athletically. Collie was a better prospect, but who knows how he would have done if drafted by another team that didn’t have peyton manning
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
wasn’t robo the second WR taken? Yes, I’m comparing the first WR taken to the second WR taken.
I could understand this “it’s the qb” argument if he was putting up low or mediocre numbers, or average numbers. But he’s putting up NO numbers, which is inexcusable regardless.
I met a fairy today that granted me one wish. "I want to live forever," I said. "Sorry" said the fairy, "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"
"Fine" I said, "I want to die after the Browns win the Super Bowl !"
"You crafty bastard," said the fairy.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Oct 29, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If you mean overall in the draft, Robo was the 7th WR drafted.
(Hayward-Bey, Crabtree, Maclin, Harvin, Nicks, Britt)
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 29, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
well…thats not a valid comparison even if this WAS true. if a draft has one elite WR and a bunch of crappy ones, should the best crappy one be compared to the 2nd best receiver in a receiving class like 2011 will be (so compared to a Michael floyd)? no, that would be an invalid comparison, because of the difference in where they will be drafted.
you compare draft POSITION not draft # when it comes to playing position
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Robi gets open, I have seen this on tape in every game he’s played. He also catches the ball when it is thrown to him.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I don’t remember reading anywhere that robo was drafted to make an impact right away. Not that i’m saying the pick isn’t or won’t be a miss, but I don’t think it’s legit to say he was brought in to have an impact right away. Especially when we still had BE at the time.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
I’m of the opinion Mangini did much better than people give him credit for, even if Robo and Mass only stick as journeymen receivers
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
Mack, the draft trade, all the waiver wire guys and the return on some other trades.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 27, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
What ntn said below. I think he did a good job acquiring picks and moving down to select Mack, which I feel he deserves credit for even if it turns out he subsequently blew some picks on Mass and Robo. He also sent Braylon on his way and helped get us in a position to get something for Winslow.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
acquiring some of our best players is irrelevant. the talent on this team pretty much sucked when he got here, and mostly sucks still (it’s a credit to mangini and the staff that the team plays as hard as it does and is as competitive as it is). so, having acquired 4 of the most talented players on a largely talentless team means little. stuckey and benard start virtually nowhere else, moore doesn’t even start here, though roth seems pretty darn good.
and i’ll say that maybe talent evaluation isn’t mangini’s issue, but his combination of talent and character evaluation leads to questionable talent populating the team.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Technically benard doesn’t start but is a key player. However, I do think that he would be able to find significant playing time on other teams. Maybe 8 sacks in 12 games is partly a product of the system, however I have to believe there is something good there.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Stuckey started for the jets, Benard most certainly gets significant playing time elsewhere, Moore should be playing a hell of a lot more than he is, and I agree on Roth.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 27, 2010 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Stuckey started for the jets for Mangini
stuckey is a helpful role player, but he is no starter. let’s be honest with ourselves. and i’ll give a little bit on benard … it’s unclear, given his limited time due to injuries in particular, how good he is. i don’t particularly think he’d play a lot elsewhere, but i guess it’s hard to say so far.
the fact that moore should be playing more in your mind actually helps my point.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
your point was that those guys didn’t have talent. I don’t see how Moore not playing makes your point.
Stuckey is a good 3rd WR. whether you want to count that as a starter in today’s NFL is a matter of opinion I think, much like the 3rd Corner.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
my point was that mangini is not a particularly effective evaluator of talent. you think moore is talented enough to play big minutes. he does not play big minutes. ergo, mangini (and his staff) is not a particularly effective evaluator of moore’s talent … which is my whole point.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 28, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Mangini and his staff were good enough at evaluating talent to pick him up in the first place. His usage in the game falls on Daboll, who may be a terrible evaluator of talent.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
if you want to start allocating specific talent acquisition/usage to specific coaches you’re going to lose me. i will say, though, that if you’re going to blame daboll for not using moore, you’ve got to similarly credit him for using and maximizing hillis.
i’m not really interested in separating out whether mangini is a good talent guy, or daboll is bad, or ryan is average, or seely is great… i’ll use “mangini” as a proxy for the whole coaching staff, which seems reasonable. moore’s not playing, and he should be. that falls on mangini.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 28, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Benard seems pretty solid to me. Definitely not an elite pass rusher, but a guy that pressures the QB.
Considering we pick him up off the street, I’d say he’s pretty good. I think UDFAs/Waivers are clearly Mangini’s strength.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
THIS. Not a big fan of he draft (outside of mack and possibly robo) but he has built a solid core (Benard, Roth, Schafering, Moore, Ventrone, etc…) through the UDFAs/Waivers.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
How is that irrelevant? We’re not going to go from a talentless team to a Super Bowl contender in one season. We’ve acquired pieces to get us to a higher level and we can still use those pieces to get higher.
If Stuckey and Bernard continue to play well enough to play/start/get significant minutes for us, it allows us to initially focus our attention on other areas for improvement. After doing that we can then focus attention on getting someone to replace them, unless of course we are in a position to get a talented player at their position at which point we do it.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
it’s irrelevant b/c judging our talent in a vacuum — i.e. only in the context of our team — is meaningless. you know who acquired all of the raiders’ talent over the last several years? al davis. doesn’t mean he has a clue about talent evaluation anymore, b/c most of that talent sucks (broncos game notwithstanding).
the comp isn’t if players can play/start for us. my assessment is that most of the talent here sucks, so the fact that these guys start is all but meaningless … the comp is our talent versus other teams’ talent. and if you make do an honest accounting of the talent on this team there is no possible way to conclude that we’re in anything but the bottom quartile of talent in the nfl.
let me reiterate, i’m a fan and supporter of mangini. as i’ve said, the fact that he’s got this no-talent bunch playing at the level at which they currently are is nothing short of amazing and a credit to the coaching abilities of mangini and his staff (ex. daboll, obviously). once H&H get some real nfl starters in the fold for this team the sky is the limit.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
This is where I am at.
We are severely lacking athleticism and playmakers at almost all levels.
The fact that we have played as well as we have is a huge reason that I have become a Mangini supporter.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 27, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I know that we aren’t skilled, but Mangini started what he knew would be a long process of building the team the right way.
If anyone rips Savage for destroying the future because he (erroneously) thought we were a few pieces away and put us in mild cap trouble, they have to give Mangini credit for tearing Savage’s house down and building the foundations. Even if our house is a skeleton right now.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’m not denying that we lack talent, I’m saying that you can acquire nfl starters at every position in one or two seasons. I think we’ve decided to get guys who can contribute and play for us and acquire starter level talent and minimizing resource usage while still fielding a competitive team.
We can not significantly upgrade our talent in the short term. We can however upgrade our game competitiveness through coaching, schemes, and acquiring players who can move us forward at a lower use of resources while maintaining a higher degree of competitiveness.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
We can not significantly upgrade our talent in the short term.
well, that’s clearly not true. look at the falcons and dolphins from just two years ago.
now, i’m not saying it’s easy, exactly, but in the nfl it doesn’t take a ton to meaningfully upgrade enough talent to change your position in the pecking order. what’s the crazy stat about the number of teams that make the playoffs in year t+1 that didn’t make it in year t?
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 28, 2010 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
The falcons drafted a Franchise QB and hit on the pick. The Dolphins introduced the Wildcat and didn’t duplicate their success last season.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
What Parcells did with the Dolphins is pretty incredible in one season, he completely remade the defense and offensive line in one year and it worked. To act like a Dolphins turnaround is easy to do is amusing, only a football guru like Parcells could pull something like that off.
The Falcons were further along than the Browns and hit on a franchise QB as you said.
The falcons were about as far along as we are IMO. they just got a premier back who could get 1400 yards a season and a franchise QB in the same year. The only way I would say they were farther along was the fact that they had Roddy White…forgot, they also got a LT in the draft that year.
Honestly, the falcons were a team that hit on all their picks, got enough pieces in place, and won a lot of close games (just like we are losing a lot of close games). their point differential per game was about 4, which is very low for an 11 win team.
If we get a #1 WR and a franchise QB (or colt becoming that), I can see us having that kind of turnaround.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
If we get a #1 WR and a franchise QB (or colt becoming that), I can see us having that kind of turnaround.
And a John Abraham and Tony Gonzalez as well.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 28, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought they got Tony Gonzalez the year after they went 11-5.
Even without abraham, I think we have a better D than they had. Like I pointed out, they won a lot of close games (same we are losing a lot of close games) and they had the 24th hardest schedule (whereas we have a top 5 SoS).
Personally, I think they were a better and more talented team in ‘09, but the record doesn’t show it (partially b/c they had less close games and partially b/c of a tougher SoS).
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
it worked for one season. they were 7-9 last year and are 3-3 this year. mediocrity is not the goal.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think the strength of Mangini’s player acquisition can really be spoken to, and I don’t think it is really relevant.
The fact is, he was doing two jobs. I don’t care who the coach is, I want someone in charge of scouting and personnel, and another in charge of coaching. I don’t care who has final say, I care that different people are running the day-to-day operations.
I wouldn’t trust someone who has proven to be great at player acquisition coaching at the same time because their player acquisition would suffer. So maybe Mangini is actually good at this (i.e. it is unfair to judge him based on that draft), but it doesn’t matter.
Thanks goodness we stopped having an absentee GM and got real stability and leadership in our organization.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
whether he’s a bad talent evaluator or an “incomplete” talent evaluator, i’m with you in that i’m glad he’s not occupying both “coach” and “talent evaluator” anymore. that’s the most important thing … well, that and the fact that we got 2 guys w/ pretty robust talent evaluation resumes to do that end of the gig.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I know Haden looks good and all, but damn if I won’t be a little upset/validated every time I watch Dez Bryant play.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
No thanks. I’ll take Haden over Bryant even to this day.
Anderception [an·der·cep·tion] -noun
1. the logical end result of a Derek Anderson pass
by Simmsinns on Oct 26, 2010 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He has talent, that has never been the question.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
And that’s what we lack at WR. Unless I’m forgetting something, his “character issues” amounted to a lot of NCAA BS.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
While you are having sweet dreams of Dez Bryant over Joe Haden, I’m having nightmares of Brandon McDonald still playing for the Browns and not tackling anyone.
by Monsters of the Midway on Oct 26, 2010 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions
The amazing thing to me is that we still have a long way to go in the secondary and that is after acquiring 2 DBs in the first 2 rounds and Sheldon Brown. I think Heckert viewed it as a glaring weakness.
No kidding. You could write an entire article on what will happen with the defensive back field after this season.
by Monsters of the Midway on Oct 26, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
1 replacement-level safety and the development of Haden and we’ll be fine.
We could have had Revis, Polamalu, Reed, and Nnamdi back there for some of these games and it wouldn’t have mattered because we couldn’t get to the QB.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Eric Wright, Sheldon Brown, Joe Haden and Mike Adams
Even with Haden developing, Wright’s a FA at season’s end, Adams seems to have hit his ceiling and Brown’s on the wrong side of 30. It seems like there’s still work to be done.
by Monsters of the Midway on Oct 26, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope we re-sign Wright. I am still of the opinion that he is not as bad as he looks this year and would look better if he had a better safety than Elam, and I love TJ but he is still learning. They have hurt him.
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Oct 26, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
A true free safety would certainly seem to help. I have no problem re-signing Wright if they can. Before the season it seemed like he was going to demand a big contract but his stock is obviously down now. However, I get the impression that Wright isn’t too fond of Cleveland and would prefer to play elsewhere. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
by Monsters of the Midway on Oct 26, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
We can easily re-sign Wright the way he is playing. If not, that’s another hole but it won’t be anywhere close to as glaring as last year.
Nickel back is not a big concern for me because Mike Adams-level CBs are a dime a dozen.
If Haden continues to develop, he is a legit #1 CB. Brown is a decent 2, Wright would be a very legit 2. TJ mans one safety spot.
All we’re missing is a good FS to bump Elam down to being the #3.
People are overreacting to the secondary because our scheme and lack of talent in the front 7 is making them cover for seconds longer than they should need to. In a league where 4.35 vs 4.50 is elite vs slow, having to cover for so long is killing us.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
People are overreacting to the secondary because our scheme and lack of talent in the front 7 is making them cover for seconds longer than they should need to.
Very much agree. Between the time we give opposing QBs to throw and the blitzes we run, the DBs are asked to do a lot.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Wright has been bad regardless of how long he has to cover. Check the Baltimore game, those passes were quick and he was still getting burnt.
That was more in regards to the DBs as a whole. But I wouldn’t say Wright has been all bad all the time this year, even though he has been disappointing.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, Wright played an awful game against baltimore. That’s just one game, and maybe the worst of his career. He has a solid body of work over the past couple of years, and if he is re-signable at a decent price he will be worth it. He is not a great corner, but he is a legit starter in the NFL.
If he wants to make Nate Clements money, we have to get another CB from somewhere.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
if he wants clements money he needs to start selling whatever it is he’s smoking, b/c it’s potent, and he’ll make more on that than he ever will playing football.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Nickel back is not a big concern for me because Mike Adams-level CBs are a nickel dime a dozen.
Your overpricing nickelbacks … /sarc
by talonk on Oct 27, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, but the weakness is at least as glaring right now at WR.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
Agree, I just place a lot more emphasis on secondary than WR. I am of the belief that a good QB can make bad WRs look good.
A bad QB can make good WRs look bad too.
Anderception [an·der·cep·tion] -noun
1. the logical end result of a Derek Anderson pass
But we just took two DBs last year. When are we going to shore some of the other parts of this football team?
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I would guess that we are working on that constantly.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Does that grant license to draft more DBs and ignore the rest of the team’s need? I’m trying to know what you mean here.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think drafting DBs and filling other needs are mutually exclusive.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 27, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Right. What gives me pause is chasing the perfect secondary at the expense of other things our team needs.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You are right, we only have a finite amount of resources.
But if there is a dominant CB on the board, no other good CBs on the board, and 5 linebackers who we all think are average on the board, you take the CB. Because at this point there is room to give another CB lots of snaps.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
They are constantly trying to improve the entire team. We need more talent everywhere—including in the secondary. Though I don’t see the secondary as being a crisis.
I think your #1 area of concern in the NFL is the QB position. If you don’t have one, you need one.
I think the next thing to do to the roster is to make sure you can shore up any crisis areas. Right now, I don’t really see any. WR maybe, but I really only see that being solved by a dominant physical talent. TE has been shored up, right side of the line is looking passable, secondary is alright, Bowens and Fujita are putting together solid performances at LB along with Roth and Bernard.
At that point, I think it becomes about value and your football philosophy. What is the best way to spend the limited resources you have to maximize the impact on the field for your team (how you plan to play the game plays into this)?
In the draft or free agency a lot of the answer to that complicated question is answered by the pool of players available. You can’t target a position, you have to target a player at a position. Why draft a crappy WR just to draft a WR? Are you better off drafting a WR in the first and a CB in the second? Well a lot is going to depend on how many guys are available and how talented they all are.
If the best guy on our board is a CB, I say we take the CB. Given our current roster, I am in favor of BPA—unless we can get a franchise QB.
So the short answer is you improve other areas of the team when you think spending your resources there (draft pick, salary cap) will make the biggest impact on the field. You keep improving the secondary when you think spending resources on the secondary will help the team the most.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Can’t say I disagree with any of that. I understand that if there is just a remarkable CB available to be had, especially one that is better than what else is available at any other position, sure, you go ahead and take him. But I also view our secondary as passable. Meanwhile, don’t we have an aging front seven and a strong need for a pass rush, for instance? It might not be ‘crisis,’ per se, but it ain’t exactly pretty either. I’d probably prioritize this over DBs, at the moment.
I’m certainly not in the ‘must draft a receiver!’ camp. Probably closer to your position, in fact, about getting a QB.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
patrick peterson is that remarkable db in the first round.
rufio is right in many respects, of course, but to me you make a good point about the pass rush. one good way to improve your secondary is to get more pressure on the qb. to me, that’s crisis #2 behind WR … although i do not advocate taking a first round WR.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t know enough about him. seems like a great collegiate talent, but how big/fast is he in an nfl context?
but, unless we’re talking calvin johnson (play AND character), i’m out on a top-10 wr.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
We are talking Calvin Johson.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf16_mw0nxs
Just a taste. His only “character” concerns were selling a jersey of his or something like that, I honestly don’t remember what the situation was.
He tried to sell a game worn jersey.
Wtf is the problem? He just wanted to make a little cash. At least he didn’t accept an F-ING HUMMER free of charge.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
…the same game worn jerseys the university sells for a 1k profit.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
And your point is?
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2010 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions
his point is that’s why he got in trouble. Because the university wanted that money.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh.
Well, Boo hoo to the University.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
exactly. just the ridiculousness of the whole situation. these universities take the jerseys from players, sell them for a profit, and the players do not see a dime of it.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Students as a whole rarely see that money.
Yay for me that KSU plans to expand exponentially and jack my tuition sky high. Ugh.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
thats sucks.
OT: i am going down to KSU tomorrow…
yeah, Ohio schools are a bit above average when it comes to in-state tution (i.e. I believe KSU is about 9k and the average in state in the US is just under 8k). If it gets any higher, its definitely a problem and (without getting too political), I hope someone in ohio can address the issue.
If Ohio schools can be affordable like the SUNY system, it would be great.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I pay 9 grand to commute. So far it’s been paid for.
KSU got a renovation grant and re did a lot of stuff but now they want to tap our pockets instead of going back to the renovation money, f-ing stupid. They want to create a “prestigious” entrance to KSU, complete with a terrace and clock tower the same height as the Library. The thing is though, is that the Library already tells time and they’ll be less than a football field away from each other…
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
that is still nice. comparatively, even if you did have to pay it isn’t too bad.
thats really stupid…Its just to give it more “prestige” and decoration. I would be fine with a school I went to doing that as long as they got donors or something…but it for something where the students will get little benefit, it is unfair to foot them the bill.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
He is a pretty ridiculous talent. 6’4", 207. He is pretty long/skinny so injury might be a concern. He’s missed 3 games in college, with the most significant injury being an AC joint sprain.
The kid can separate and he has ball skills.
Character is somewhat of a question right now. He is considered an above-average student and a well liked kid. He sold a game worn jersey for some money and was suspended earlier this year.
Right at about 4:50 he beats Patterson on a “back shoulder” fade. He’s doing most of this against at least 1 CB + safety help.
I’d say Randy Moss minus some speed minus some perceived character flaws is a decent comparison.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I think saying character is a big concern is a bit ridiculous, but you always have to look at what he did. Personally, the jersey thing is not at all a red flag.
I like the fact that he showed he can beat a top 5 pick at CB too.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I think any time any player does something wrong, it should throw up a red flag. Whether or not that flag sticks to him depends on the answers he gives when he’s being vetted by teams prior to the draft.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
I think any time any player does something wrong, it should throw up a red flag.
Depends on the severity. Since his act was against the man for a bit of cash rather than the extreme of accepting cash from the school for free, I’d say that this is extremely minor and you’re making mountains from molehills.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta keep digging for information on him.
If this is a one-time mistake, probably not a problem. You also have to see how he reacts: how does he handle the situation? How mature is he when people keep asking him about it?
If this is part of a pattern of character concerns, it becomes a bigger issue.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Severity comes into play during the vetting process. You have to ask all of the pertinent questions, no matter how minor or insignificant the incident.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
I actually agree with you. I misspoke a bit on my original comment. If I am a GM, I will still consider it in the evaluating process and address the issue and be thorough. However, my personal opinion is that its not a big deal.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Character is somewhat of a question right now.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I have made peace with this as well.
The downside of playing better. Works for me.
I think we will be picking in the 7-12 range. Borderline on Patterson range.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 28, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Patterson will be gone by then if his draft pre-season is anything like people expect.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Hopefully he bombs it like Haden.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 28, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The only problem with that is I don’t see a pass rusher worth a high pick. Robert Quinn is the closest one I see, but I don’t like picking a guy who will have missed an entire season.
Patrick Peterson is my pick. I don’t care we went CB last season. You don’t pass on an elite talent to reach for a need. We need playmakers, damn the position they play.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 27, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
love peterson. i’m with you.
i’m not suggesting we reach for a pass rusher. i have no idea who the great collegiate ones are … you guys know way more about the draft than i. i’m just pointing out what i think our greatest needs are.
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Peterson, Ward, and Haden patrolling the backfield? Sounds like a dream, but can we really go another season without a deep threat?
It’s a deep WR class, someone will be there in round two.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Oct 28, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Johnothan Baldwin perhaps. He may not have elite gamebreaking speed, but he can be a Brandon Marshall type of player and the guy is just ridiculously tall (combined with great jumping ability)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I can see him being picked at the end of the first.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
thats probably where he goes. Its more that I hope he can fall to us in the 2nd. He will likely go IMO (and this is still early) 20-21 or later in the first, but he could fall to the 2nd.
I think baldwin has enough speed to be an NFL receiver and get separation in the league (plus, at 6’5’’ and great ups, you don’t always need separation). if he posts a 4.55 40 time, I can definitely see him falling. there are definitely questions about his speed.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I do agree with that, yeah. If a guy like Peterson happens to be the best player on the board going away, sure, pick him. It’s imperative we make those early picks work out, as you say, damn the position they play.
All things being equal, however, I think we consider other needs before our secondary.
by Western Reserve on Oct 28, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Watched him against Oklahoma since you mentioned him.
Was surprised at how many plays he made considering he looked like he was playing on one foot (ankle?). Definitely worth watching. Had one play were he just pushed aside the guard on a rush. Very impressive.
by Bernie19Kosar on Oct 28, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, he was hobbling. I promise you he scores on that interception he had if he were 100%, they say he can run under a 4.5 40. He’s 6’5 and lines up standing up, as an end or even as a DT and still generates pressure. Young too, I think he would be a monster in a 3-4.
Caveat: I usually don’t hype Missouri players unless I am sure, and I am sure on this one.
might not be ‘crisis,’ per se, but it ain’t exactly pretty either.
This describes how I feel about most of our team.
The front seven is an area where we really need to look at players. Looking at the draft board, I would give many front 7 players a bump up relative to, say, offensive linemen or running backs. This helps address “need”.
This kind of thing is also a part of the “impact on the field”. Let’s dumb everything down to Maddenesque ratings:
Say you have DBs who are 89, 85, 83, and 80 overall.
Say you have LBs that are 90, 88, 73, and 71 overall.
If the BPA is a DB at 81 overall, but the next player on the board is a LB at 79 overall, you get more impact from the LB because he can replace someone who sucks more. The 2 overall in pure talent is something you have to consider, but it might be worth it.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yes, well put.
I’d also say this about our DBs: I sort of see them on an upward trajectory. I think the much maligned Eric Wright is better than he’s been playing and can return to form. I also think both Haden and Ward are good and will only get better. Meanwhile, I think other areas of the team are sloping the other direction. That’s really why I’d like to see some progress made elsewhere other than the secondary. But, again, that’s not to say we should discriminate against a guy because of his position who’s a complete stud playmaker.
by Western Reserve on Oct 28, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I think other areas of the team are sloping the other direction.
Right, this would impact the premium I would put on the position. Again simplifying to Maddenesque levels, maybe if he could replace someone terrible you put a +1 on his rating. Maybe if he brings youth to an aging unit you put another +1.
But there is no way I am passing up on an 85 for a 79, regardless of position.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Agree. Keep picking talent all over the field. I am not prioritizing secondary over pass rusher at this point, just saying we still need to keep working at fixing both.
I am not prioritizing secondary over pass rusher at this point
Okay, I agree with that. The clarity helps as first I thought you were prioritizing DBs.
by Western Reserve on Oct 27, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Umm – we can also sign free agents. And make trades.
"If Brown is the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question." - Ryan
by woodsmeister on Oct 27, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
And make trades.
for players?? the hell you say … this is the nfl!
/joke
by DontCallMeJoey on Oct 27, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I know many of us on here really like Davis and I hope he succeeds elsewhere in the league.
"Of course, I can get a hell of a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."--Big Tom Callahan
I think it was all the glowing comparisons to Jamal Lewis that did it. Same school, same build etc.
Welcome Joe!
Go Seneca!
by LondonBrown on Oct 26, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Jamal sucked. Def. not the reason.
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
You must be confusing him with someone else. Jamal Lewis went to Tennessee and Davis went to Clemson.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 26, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Same high school though BB
Peyton Hillis is my Hero.
by SpecialBrownie on Oct 26, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, that’s right. I remember hearing that now.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Oct 26, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
150+ comments triggered by replacing one third string RB with another. I’m not sure that even Heckert spent this much time on the decision.
by elsandito on Oct 26, 2010 4:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
37% of which are a discussion about making up statistics. 29% about Robiskie being a bust (or not). 26% are probably a physics debate buried somewhere on the far right side of the screen. 12% are responses to the “Sendin’ dick pix, Throwin’ pick six” picture. 7.8% are open ideas about what “PS” stands for and the final 3% are about James Davis being cut.
by Monsters of the Midway on Oct 26, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
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- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
- UPDATE: Charlie Sheen didn’t buy Lawrence Taylor’s Super Bowl ring
- Alex Smith gets blown up by Jon Beason over Cam Newton comments
