The 2011 Draft. What should our focus be? (poll)
There has been much discussion about the 2011 draft, and what the Browns needs are.
Its been pretty much all over the map. Our wide receiver corps is obviously not a cast of stars.
Our offensive line has obviously been a big weakness in the 2nd half of the season (RHS in particular).
Hillis is not invincible. He's been pretty much a one man show in our offensive backfield and eventually it will catch up with him.
Some have pointed out weaknesses lately in our defense as well.
If you were in Holmgren / Heckert's office and had your say in the matter:
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If Hardesty can get himself healthy we’ll have a very dangerous backfield. I voted WR. Massaquoi is looking solid and Robo looks to finally be turning it around, but we need more.
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by Andrew Tolliver on Dec 22, 2010 10:16 AM EST reply actions
I was going to vote WR. It seems like the need is very obvious, and I’ve stated my opinion many times I think we need someone that can stretch the field, etc.
But thinking back on the the o-line collapse in the games in the 2nd half of the season I changed my vote.
If we continue having the problems at o-line we’ve been having I don’t see how we can succeed on offense no matter what else we do.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Dec 22, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good point. I think the right side will be addressed but I’m not 100% sure it should be the top concern.
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
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by Andrew Tolliver on Dec 22, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
a thousand times this.
draft a lineman.
for good god, trade and get a WR.
by discoinferno083 on Dec 22, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Trade what exactly? There’s no where we seem to be deep enough to be able to afford to trade away talent for a stud WR. Future picks maybe but I don’t like the idea of giving up a lot of those for a WR.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Dec 31, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Best player available. Trade down and stockpile picks when we can. Trade picks for better picks in future drafts when we can.
This should be the focus of our draft strategy every year.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Dec 22, 2010 10:31 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Agreed on BPA. As for trading down, only if it would still let us get a guy we want/need (see Mack, Alex, 1 ea.) otherwise there’s no point.
I am effing hurdling you and you can't stop me.
otherwise there’s no point.
This is false. While obviously, the most success rate of players is in the first round, draft picks are ALWAYS more valuable. Depending on spot and willingness of desperate team, you can rape them of picks and players. I love trading down because it’s always short term loss, long term gain.
ROHC THE SOHC.
by SpecialBrownie on Dec 22, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
While obviously, the most success rate of players is in the first round, draft picks are ALWAYS more valuable.
Huh? More valuable than what?
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Dec 22, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
if you trade down you end up with more than one pick (usually). so two picks are generally more valuable than one.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Dec 22, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
yes. to hell with the draft value chart, you want more picks because even #1 overall picks bust.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I think it all depends who you end up getting with the picks. its hard to grade any draft or draft strategy until after you see what the players drafted develop into.
but I could be dead wrong, I don’t really like talking about the draft or college prospects anyway, and therefore don’t really research it.
I think ultimately you’re right, none of it matters if you pick bad players. But I also think you can evaluate a strategy as well. For instance, Phil Savage’s draft strategy was a poor one, and would have been poor even if more of his players panned out.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Dec 24, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Savage’s strategy was a poor one after he got overconfident and thought we were a consistent playoff team and then again after he panicked and was reaching to save his job.
His initial strategy of getting a stud pass rusher, a franchise LT, a franchise QB, a pro bowl WR and a #1 CB as the cornerstones of a franchise was a good one. Those positions, along with NT (which he traded for) are the most valuable in the NFL.
That initial strategy wasn’t the problem, the problem was that all of those players with the exception of Joe T. never lived up to expectations.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’d like to add your ‘BPA’ philosophy to the poll options.
Unfortunately its not possible to add an option once a poll is published.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Dec 22, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t necessarily disagree with Golan in principle (BPA / trade down / stockpile picks, etc.).
But in theory, an absolute / literal interpretation regarding a “BPA strategy” means that potentially we may not necessarily succeed in getting some sorely needed positions filled.
IMHO in 2011 we really need to find a way (either via the draft or through FA) to acquire additional talent at WR and/or o-line (right tackle specifically) in order to be able to be competitive with our offense.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Dec 22, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
I was wondering who would be the first person to answer BPA. Concur.
Never underestimate the powers of Josh Cribbs.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Dec 22, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
this is awesome but only when you have continuity.
by 489favegame stat on Dec 23, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
trade picks for better picks in future drafts? Sounds like we need a delorean to figure that one out.
He is referecing where teams trade, for example, a 3rd round pick in ’11 for a second round pick on ’12.
Happens every year. Carolina doesn’t have a second rounder because of this.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 1, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think Golan got it.
Heckert is known for drafting BPA and I think he is a very knowledgable GM, especially when it comes to draft day. That being said I think he is difficult to predict, and is always looking for steals and under the radar players. So while we all are stuck on the idea of Greene or Jones, I wouldnt be the least bit surprised if we wait until the 2nd or 3rd to grab a WR. Im betting a good deal of us will be very surprised by the time we are off the clock in that first round.
Regarding OT’s in this draft, its supposed to be a pretty weak class. I would be disappointed if we drafted an OT in the first round, but fully expect to address it at some point in the first round. Safe to say I think we will have drafted an OT, a DE, and a WR by the end of the third round, just who knows what order they will come in.
by BigDawgGottaEat on Dec 22, 2010 11:45 AM EST reply actions
I think you go and grab the WR in the first round. See if we can get some experience on the OL through free agency. I like WR then DE/DL. We are still not putting enoughy pressure on the opposing QB. There is a gamble on Hardesty coming back and not getting hurt, but to draft another RB would be a mistake.
Is it possible that for once, safety isn’t an issue? (!!!)
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
Editor of The Cannon, a Columbus Blue Jackets Blog. Check us out!
by Andrew Tolliver on Dec 22, 2010 12:29 PM EST reply actions
Nope, still is. We have two good SS, and no FS with below average backups. Sorry.
ROHC THE SOHC.
by SpecialBrownie on Dec 22, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
I think if Elam can continue to play pretty well, we are fine in this area. I would not necessarily consider it an issue that needs addressed. There are much heavier positions that need addressed.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
Okay, then. Have fun watching Ventrone cover WRs.
ROHC THE SOHC.
by SpecialBrownie on Dec 22, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
This level of player is much easier to find than a starting FS. I think we could find someone who posts here who covers better than Ventrone on regular teams.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
lol yes, watching Ventrone on anything other than special teams is painful!
by Combat Medic on Dec 28, 2010 3:22 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t want to draft a guy high. I would rather the browns get a guy in Free Agency and then let a midround project develop. A Deon Grant or OJ Atogwe. Then we can get someone like Chris Rucker or Brian Lainhart who have good Size/Speed and they can develop into a solid FS.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I voted other for BPA.
a Delhomme [a·del·homme·] -noun
1. an interception that is returned for a touchdown
2. a useless, drive killing checkdown pass
I think there needs to be some explanation regarding “BPA”. It’s one of those things that is nice to throw around as a blanket statement, but what does it mean, really?
first of all, best according to what standard? We could be drafting at a spot with a really solid (fingers-crossed) WR available, or a good O-lineman. BPA leaves a lot of apples-and-oranges scenarios as possibilities.
Also… what if the best player available is a QB? or a LT? Those would not be areas we would need the BPA.
I just see this as a term that gets thrown around a lot and not fully understood or done well.
by discoinferno083 on Dec 22, 2010 4:57 PM EST reply actions
what teams are good examples of this?
Balt?- i know they tend to draft well, and I believe it’s usually BPA
Philly- usually drafts a ton of talent.. where ever it may be.
by discoinferno083 on Dec 22, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
This is why I prefer my self-defined best value available.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
This is kind of how I look at it. Good definition of it. I like to say BPA, but I would never think a team should disregard need. I look at it as “best player available for your team”. If you have Joe Thomas, its a waste to draft Gabe Carmini (though we could use a good bookend Tackle). I think this is how many teams do it, and they have their own “BPA” boards but they are different, not only because of different scouting, but because of different values placed on positions that year.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I’m not sure how much trading around there will be if there is a new rookie salary structure in place. Teams that might have traded away from high dollar draft positions might be more apt to take the talent that is there – if the price is now a locked in factor. Also, it would be tough to trade a 2011 draft pick for a future pick if there is no new CBA and the true projected value of that pick is unknown. If that makes any sense.
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
Very unlikely that the CBA will be resolved by the time of the draft.
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Dec 22, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
I heard people saying the other day that it could be done before the playoffs are over.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Dec 22, 2010 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
And, what I was woefully trying to explain was that even if the draft took place before a rookie salary cap was in place (one of the major sticking points of the next CBA), the following (2012) years draft would undoubtedly involve some sort of rookie pay structure, thus effecting the projected value of future draft picks.
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
So far, I think the only position that is absolutely imperative that we find somewhere this offseason is RT. It could be drafting someone who happens to be BPA, it could be reaching, it could be signing a free agent.
We absolutely cannot survive another season with St. Clair out there.
That said, we have many areas where we need to improve at some point to become contenders but could keep ourselves afloat with the players we have. In order of how nice it would be to have them:
Pass rusher
number 1 WR
DL
Linebacker
FS
number 2 RB
5th or 6th DB
OL depth
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Dec 22, 2010 6:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think it is also imperative that we improve at WR. Re RT, I agree that it is likely a more important need, but not something that we will likely address in the first round.
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Dec 22, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
I think we definitely need to upgrade at WR, but I think we can survive with what we have. I don’t think we can survive with St. Clair at RT.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Dec 22, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
this is my theory. We can get by with our WRs for another year, but we need someone on that right side. I also think we need youth and speed in the front 7 which I think should be a focus. Lastly, out of all 3 of these positions, the easiest to find in Free Agency this year would be another servicable WR. Also off Rufio’s list, there are a lot of solid FA #2 Running backs (Michael Bush, Sproles, Kolby Smith, Kevin smith).
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Bush would be an awesome pickup.
"There are a lot of Steelers fans around the city so I hope people go to work and kick those Steelers fans.’’ - Josh Cribbs.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Dec 23, 2010 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
I really don’t think it is as pressing to improve at WR. We’re bad there and we need to improve at some point, but it isn’t what is limiting our team. We could get a lot of work from Hillis/Hardesty, Moore, and Watson in the passing game, and if Robi and MoMass both put up 600 yard seasons (not outrageously out of the picture in an offense that passed more with Colt at QB all year) I think we’d be alright. With those two WR at 600, Watson at 1000, and Stuckey/Cribbs/RBs/Moore combining for another 400 yards, that’s a 3000 yard QB and that’s pretty damn good for us.
But not even AJ Green is going to get the chance to break open unless we can protect. Look at the play by play against the Bengals and the Bills, it’s embarassing. We were getting 9.6 YPA from Colt but that wasn’t turning in to first downs mostly because of sacks on St. Clair.
We don’t have to get the guy in the first round, we don’t even have to get him in the draft, but that’s the one need I would put above BVA right now. It’s the one “must” on our wish list.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I think Pashos’s health plays a role in how dire of a need this is.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Dec 24, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
I think his career is over, unfortunately.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I hope not…what do you base this assertion on?
by Combat Medic on Dec 28, 2010 3:42 AM EST up reply actions
I think he’s ended his last 2+ seasons on IR, had a career full of injuries, and is getting up there in years. I could be wrong about the middle part.
his pick sexes put us over the top
by North Coast Flea on Dec 29, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
His back is destroyed and Mangini had a talk with him about ending his career for his safety and well being.
ROHC THE SOHC.
by SpecialBrownie on Dec 31, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Rufio, I again bow to your football acumen, but would a pass rusher really benefit us more than an A-list Defensive Lineman? (Not rhetorical, I am really asking.) Having watched us the past few games, I feel like lack of a “push” against the enemy O-line is hurting us far more than having a guy who excels at chasing the QB. Maybe I’m wrong, and maybe those two things should go hand-in-hand, but I feel like our pressure was adequate. Not great, and I have been cursing the 3-man-rush D, but still—we are getting effort commensurate with our talent level.
We just seem to be 2 steps behind the opponent RB lately, and I feel that starts in the trenches. We could start any LB in the NFL, but without the DL tying up the O-line, they won’t be able to make plays in a 3-4.
Hard to argue with the #1 WR option—definitely a “take” regardless of your talent, but I doubt anyone can catch the ball without someone to throw it. I think McCoy can be our QB of the future, but this is something which seems infinitely more important than who we have catching passes.
I would love to draft our own Ray Lewis, or young Scott Fujita, Dave Bowens, etc…but of course, we have to deal with the players available. If that guy is in the works, let’s go for him; if not, let’s solidify the positions we can. I advocate an inside-out build—start with the lines on both sides, and go from there.
BPA should rule the day, and I gather from your postings, you agree with this. I just am not sure if I agree with your order of merit. I think the right side of the OL need solidified much sooner than we need to address secondary depth. Both are issues, but one seems much more immediate than the other.
I suppose this is so much crap, arguing which position is more important while agreeing that the BPA is our guiding principle…I guess I just want my team to be a good one, and I can’t claim the foresight for a blueprint. I make my best guesses, and in the end, I hope we win. My opinion is irrelevant.
by Combat Medic on Dec 28, 2010 3:42 AM EST up reply actions
I think so. This is a bigtime passing league now, you have to be able to get pressure and the value of only having to bring 4 rushers to do so is really underrated. The DL should be part of that pass rush, though, so they do kind of go hand in hand.
I also think we are decent at stopping the run and we don’t really have a dominant pass rusher so the most room for improvement from one new player is in the area of the pass rush. Though if we play the run like we did at Cincy we’ll never win another game.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
My Wants
Obviously gotta go best player available but here are some guys I want
1) AJ Green, been called the best receiving prospect since Randy Moss
2) Gabe Carimi, beast of a lineman best suited for RT (need) and we had some success with the last Wisconsin tackle we drafted.
3) Jonathan Baldwin, huge physical receiver, could have some low stock due to Pitt not getting him the ball
4) [late rounder] Roy Helu Jr., 220lb running back with room to put on a couple more, really impressed by him and could be available 4-5th round
one more
watching this Boise State v Utah game is also making me want Austin Pettis, he’s 6’3" blazing fast, and seems to catch everything, he just caught a ball with the defender absolutely all over him.
I like Pettis, too. I’m not sure where he’s projected, but I’d be happy if the Browns took a shot at him if we didn’t get one of the top 3 or 4 WRs.
Pettis isn’t all that fast. I don’t think he will ever be a deep threat. Like guys in the draft like Greg little and Leonard Hankerson, I don’t see him being anything more than a servicable posession WR in the league. He also has a very thin frame and will need to bulk up.
Baldwin is good, but his problem isn’t getting the ball, its the fact that when I watch him, it seems like he can’t separate at times. It doesn’t matter a ton b/c of his size, but it still matters.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I like Helu as a late rounder.
There was a massive WR on Southern Miss, I think, but I also think he’s an underclassman.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Julio Jones or AJ Green will suit me just fine. I AM sold on Colt McCoy as QBOTF. The problem is that I dont know if Mass or Robiske are even worthy second receivers…any receiver that cant beat out Chauncey Stuckey for catches needs to be released or practice squad.
The Devil Dog (Go Browns)
I think AJ Green will be taken early. But I’d be very happy if we landed Julio Jones.
If he is still on the board I think he will be our best option for a first round pick.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Dec 23, 2010 8:26 AM EST up reply actions
We have too many needs that we should just do BPA. Personally, If green isn’t there I am not huge on drating a WR in the first (unless Floyd puts together some really good workouts). I personally the focus should be on Defense. I know, our defense is the better part of the team but our front 7 are looking real old and real slow.
I also think about this as we can’t address all the needs in the draft and there will be some FAs signed. there are a lot of solid mid-level options at WR like Jacoby Jones, Davone Bess, James Jones, and Malcolm Floyd (also Mark Clayton and Laurent robinson but I think they are one step below these guys).
However, for positions in the front 7 in the 3-4, there are not the kind of mid-level guys I see us targeting. at 3-4 DL it pretty much Ngata, Seymour, and Ellis. The only guy I can really see that would be affordable and add youth is Jacob Ford in Tennessee. There are also not a ton of elite pass rushers. Outside of Tamba Hali, there isn’t much.
WR and RT are positions much easier addressed in FA and RT can be addressed later in the draft too. We need youth and speed in that front 7.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
As much as I like AJ Green, I think our defense should be our first priority. With Colt at QB, I think our WR situation will be alright for a little longer. And who knows, MoMass or Robo could blow up next year.
With that said, I go DE or ILB.
You’re probably right (except I’d debate the need for a RT might be more urgent), but man would I love to see what our offense could do with a good WR who can stretch the field. The thought of McCoy with some real weapons, with Hillis back there and hopefully an o-line patched up – gets me psyched.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Dec 23, 2010 8:30 AM EST up reply actions
The RT hole is easier to fill, I think. You can find decent guys in the second or third round, or even through free agency or a minor trade. Heck, if Pashos was healthy he’d be ok.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Dec 23, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Pretty much what I was thinking.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Dec 23, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Here’s a question:
Who here would be upset if we used our first round pick (likely #10 – #15) on Gabe Carimi? Is that too early to take a guy who has the potential to be an elite RT?
Dawgs by Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
I would like that pick.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Dec 23, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
From what I’ve read he looks pretty good. Wisconsin’s offense has certainly been dominant this year.
Maybe have to keep an eye on him next weekend in the Rose Bowl!
I’d be really torn though, if Julio Jones is available. With the latest projections I’ve seen it looks like a strong possibility he’ll be available when we make our 1st round pick.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Dec 23, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
I would buy the jersey on draft day.
Love the big uglies.
by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 24, 2010 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
I would be ok with it, I would like the pick more if we could trade down first, and I would like the pick even more if we could get into the teens (by winning more the season prior or trading down) and select a guy in what seems like a better draft for tackles.
I think this draft will feature a few reaches at OT because it is such a valuable position and a lot of teams need them. I’d rather have the opposite supply/demand dynamic.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
What’s so special about this AJ Green feller?
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Dec 23, 2010 10:03 AM EST reply actions
Really? I saw a few Georgia games this year and no one said anything.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Dec 23, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
If you watched one of their early games, he was suspended for the first four games.
by Bernie19Kosar on Dec 24, 2010 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
Did you watch Green play? The kid is ridiculous.
He is probably not as fast as Moss, though. I bet he runs 4.35-4.40, he’s athletic, he can win jump balls, he catches everything.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
thanks
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Dec 25, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Trade down, draft Von Miller.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Dec 23, 2010 12:51 PM EST reply actions
With as many teams that are needing starting QB’s, our best option may be to trade down with one of them and collect more picks. That or addressing the DL would be my first choices.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden

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