Contrarian Draft Proposal
by realmccoy on Feb 20, 2010 10:07 PM EST
57 comments
First things first, I am assuming that both Suh and Berry will be gone by the time the Browns select. Secondly, I am asking the Browns to fix the largest problem they have had since the return. The problem, they pass up excellent QBs because they think they have 2 QBs. Can't settle for Big Ben because we have Kelly and Couch - so traded up for a TE. Sanchez at number 5? Nope - we got DA and Quinn. This is almost like they have never heard the NFL axiom that if you have 2 QBs you don't have one. Lets kill that issue! Here is the proposal:
- Trade Derek Anderson for whatever we can get. Believe it or not - I think he may command a number 5 pick from a team like Oakland. Having a QB with a big arm that is not accurate will fit perfectly with WRs that are fast - but can't catch.
- Trade Brady Quinn for whatever we can get. I think maybe a 4 or 5 to reunite with Charlie as a backup. Or possibly to carry Brett Favre's jock in Minnesota.
- Draft Sam Bradford - QB - Oklahoma. Great size. Great Accuracy. Nice Arm. Great athlete. Reminds me of Brady (Tom not Quinn). In addition to being a Browns fan - I am a Longhorns fan that hates all things Sooner. Get the Cleveland Clinic to check that shoulder and if it sound - take advantage of the best QB at #7.
- Trade a pick for Matt Hasselbeck. He's old but crafty. Probably still better than both Quinn and DA. Let Bradford develop - and when he is ready - we're back.
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The only reason I am against drafting a QB is simple.
We still don’t know if Quinn is good or not. Chargers made the same mistake with Brees.
OK, I respect your opinion, but the comparison of Brees when he left SD and BQ right now cannot be serious. Brees had some solid, solid, solid seasons under his belt when he left SD — they had franchised the guy the year before. He had two pro-bowl years before he left. He was a proven big-time QB — there were questions about his shoulder, yes, but he had seasons that BQ has not come close to having. I mean, you just can’t be serious with that comparison.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 21, 2010 2:26 AM EST up reply actions
Your right, but that isn’t what I am talking about.
My point was the Chargers used a top 5 pick on a QB when they had Brees. Go back and look at his numbers. He had 57 CMP% and a 5.9 YPA with a 11-15 TD-INT ratio the season before they drafted Rivers. That was after 27 starts. Brady Quinn has 12.
I am sorry if I am sounding like a broken record, but we have no idea what kind of QB Brady Quinn is. Drafting a QB right now in anything sooner than the 6th or 7th round would be a massive waste.
Drafting a QB is the exact kind of move that has kept this franchise in the basement for years on end.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 21, 2010 3:14 AM EST up reply actions
I think there may be some confusion from your original post. in your original post you said:
We still don’t know if Quinn is good or not. Chargers made the same mistake with Brees.implying that brees was in a similar situation where he didn’t get any playing time. Brees had had plenty of playing time before he was let go. The chargers knew what kind of QB Brees could be, they just felt more confident with Rivers.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
I am not talking about when Brees left. I am talking about when the Chargers drafted another QB (Rivers).
I wasn’t refering to when Brees walked as a FA, that is a different discussion all together.
The Chargers didn’t allow Brees two full seasons as a starter. Being a NFL QB is the hardest job in all of sports, yet we expect sudden greatness as soon as these guys step on the field.
Until Quinn is given a full shot (12 games as a starter isn’t a full shot) then drafting a QB is a poor move. Why use a draft choice on a position that we may already have an answer for?
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 21, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
i understand that, and i agree. i just don’t think it was perfectly clear what your original post was referring to.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but (as I’ve said ad nauseum before), Quinn’s problems appear to be fundamental and not mental. He actually looks like he has a good grasp of the game. He’s not making stupid mistakes, but he still looked god awful. I just don’t think you can teach accuracy at this stage.
That’s why I signed up under a different account name and posted this.
Brady Quinn will never be a good quarterback for the Browns.
I am not saying that he will be good.
But before we move on to plan B, we better be damn sure that plan A doesn’t have a chance to work.
We have too many holes as a team to be using a draft pick on a QB early this season.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 23, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
I think it’s very likely the FO has enough to make a reasonably intelligent determination on Quinn. I doubt they find in his favor. I think if the right QB is there, they pull the trigger. That’s my hope at least.
Frankly, I don’t care to sit around and be “damn sure” that Quinn sucks if we can be reasonably sure that he does now, because that extra bit of certainty just bought us a lousy, awful season. I’m REALLY tired of those.
Brady Quinn will never be a good quarterback for the Browns.
Yea, we can’t risk passing on a QB that the front office likes just because Quinn hasn’t received a full chance. They will need to evaluate and scout and decide if anyone available this year is worth it.
If the Browns we just a QB away from being a good team then I would be all for drafting a QB.
But this team is devoid of so many things (WR, OLB, CB, S, RT, TE, and RB) why not take the time and fix the rest of the team while we evaluate Quinn for one more season?
Once we add some more pieces to this team, get things headed in the right direction, then add the QB.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 23, 2010 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
Because you can win with a good QB and decent support. You can’t with a crappy QB and a little better support.
Brady Quinn will never be a good quarterback for the Browns.
Broncos
Scientific research has proven that you lose exactly 5.37 billion brain cells every time you listen to Todd McShay.
by TheRealSlimShady on Feb 26, 2010 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
Orton isn’t a crappy QB. He’s not great but he’s right about average.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 26, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
Because good QBs are the most valuable commodity in the league.
If Quinn turns out to be Drew Brees and the guy we draft turns out to be Phillip Rivers, we have a great problem and probably several more draft picks in the future because we can trade one of them and make a killing.
If Quinn ends up around where he is now, and the other guy is good (or vice versa), we have a QB which we needed anyway.
If neither ends up as good, we are just as screwed as we were before.
Honestly, I think it comes down to how our staff evaluates the draft prospects. If they see a QB as being a potential Pro Bowler, we can take him without negative consequences. If they see a couple of QBs who are maybe NFL starters, but a dominant OLB/WR/S/DL/whatever, we can go with another position. Need is irrelevant at #7, we must nail the pick by drafting a great player regardless of need.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
If neither ends up as good, we are just as screwed as we were before.
The risk aversion is to this scenario.
by Western Reserve on Feb 24, 2010 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
There is no more risk in that scenario than there in any other.
If we don’t hit on the 1st rounder, it hurts us bad. It doesn’t matter if that miss is on a QB, WR, CB, DL, OL, etc.
IF Holmgren, Heckert, Mangini, Daboll, etc. were to see someone the majority of them liked at QB, I would say that gives us good enough odds that he will be a good player. As good as the odds on any other guy at any other position.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I think Holmgren and Mangini have an idea if Quinn is good, and I think the answer is no.
Drew Brees in the season before his injury was light years ahead of anything Quinn has done. The reason they let him walk was because of both his shoulder injury and Rivers. The situations aren’t comparable.
I was going to say the same thing. He was released do to the injury, not bad play.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Feb 21, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
He wasn’t a free agent? Didn’t SD offer him a contract, and weren’t they the only team besides the Saints to do so?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
He was a free agent, and Miami and New Orleans were both looking at Brees but Miami was scared off because of his injury. I’m not sure if they offered him a contract or not but they were looking at him. I don’t think San Diego offered him a contract because they had Rivers and were going with him as their starter.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 22, 2010 8:01 AM EST up reply actions
I swear I heard about some press statement released by the Chargers during super bowl week about being one of two teams to offer Brees a contract when he was a FA. Maybe I was W(atching)UI. Or maybe the offer was so low as to be outrageous.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I found this on the Chargers’ SBN site. The article says the Chargers did offer Brees a contract but it was a lowball offer and they weren’t going to trade Rivers so he was going to have to fight for his job. The Dolphins and Saints also offered him a contract for about the same amount of money but Miami was going to bring in other QB’s to compete with him for the starter’s job (evidently worried about the health of his shoulder) while the Saints were the only team to give him a starting job.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 22, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, my mistake. I should have said “not signed” do to injury.
If I remember correctly, Bress wanted to stay but SD wouldn’t resign him.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Feb 22, 2010 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
“IF” the offensive line questions are adressed, and actually upgraded to a real nfl line. Then Brady Q will only have to worry about his WR’s catching the ball. The QB’s & WR’s should be working out with each other right now, and get to know each others nuiances. The only way we get better is to practice your ass off, and learn from each other.
BQ can & will be a great NFL QB, but we need all the pieces for the puzzle to fit. The right side of the line, & WR’s ever get on the same page, the AFC North better had watch out for the Browns. Our Defense is growing also, but we need upgrades at S, & LB. I hope we fine some gems for a change.
Our line ended up being one of the better lines in football towards the end of the year. you don’t run the ball like that the last four games without a great line. That said, I wouldn’t mind an upgrade on the right side, and i think its something that needs to be addressed in the next year or two, but its hardly one of our biggest needs.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 21, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Our offensive line isn’t great but it’s certainly not terrible. It’s good enough to win games if we have good players at the other positions. It would be nice to get an upgrade for the right side of the line but there are many other areas of the team that needs to be addressed first. The line isn’t what is keeping our QB’s from playing well.
And I’d really like to know why you think that Quinn will be a great NFL QB, because he certainly hasn’t shown that yet. Right now I’d be very happy if he becomes an average QB.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 21, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll say it: Our offensive line is great.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
I guarantee our rookie WRs didn’t have all of the nuances of the playbook down last year. Also, Quinn had relatively little time to develop chemistry with them or any of our other receivers.
But the line was fine at the end of the year, and would be awesome with one addition. It is more than adequate as of the end of last year. Against Denver, I agree, Quinn had no chance because Dumervil was playing against air. But later in the season, he had no excuses.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
The flaw here is the idea that you think we can get decent compensation for our two QBs. And did you see Hasselbeck play? Everytime he gets touched he gets hurt anymore. Yeah he was good, but he’s old and injury-prone now.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 21, 2010 12:51 AM EST via mobile reply actions
You are right on DA
In reading his contract situation – we would probably have to cut him. No one would pay $7 million for him. Maybe we could get a 4th for BQ though.
Why would we trade Quinn for a fourth rounder?
There are probably 15 teams that would do that deal in a heartbeat.
Trading Quinn right now is a bad decision.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 22, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
There was a premise before last season, and it was that we had had enough indication that Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn represent a catch 22. We stepped back and took a look at it, and realized they had both at one time or another fooled us and that the time frame of the contents of their contracts bore evidence as to the timeliness of their failures and futilities. We assumed there would be more further mutual motives in consistency with how they would be compensated in concurrence with the idiosyncracies of their individual contracts.
We decided to get our money´s worth, and the plan was to split playing time evenly. My plan was each should play one half of each game. As we saw, Derek Anderson got his share, and then Brady Quinn was allowed to finish the season based on a greater propensity to “get the win”.
As it seems to be a trait of Browns representatives, we are expected to think as every year that everything is reset, and new and shiny. In truth we are further along regarding these two players. I went so far as to say Brett Ratliff was the starting QB, even on the side-line some time mid season.
I would even go so far, as to say fans have been aggravated enough in recent years, as to allow Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn to fulfill their destinies somewhere else, without compensation towards the franchise.
I think both can start in the right situations, and a starting QB should get you at least a number one draft pick. They still have that value, but given the propensity for people around here to barter downward so nothing that leaves Cleveland can have any real value, we should skip compensation all together. What are their chances if we just outright cut them?
given the propensity for people around here to barter downward so nothing that leaves Cleveland can have any real value
So we’re devaluating DA?? HAHAHA
I think his play does a damn good job of it
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Feb 21, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
While I’d rather not have us draft a QB with our top pick, I agree that if we do, we need to sign a veteran to show him the ropes, and a good one, the last thing we need is another 1, 2, 3 like Frye, Anderson, Dorsey
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Feb 21, 2010 4:18 PM EST reply actions
I agree that we’ve seen enough of Anderson as a starter. He can’ throw a touch pass to save his skin. As for Quinn, I wonder if there’s anything salvageable there.
A couple of years ago I read that the QB coach (don’t recall who it was then) was working with Quinn to improve his throwing mechanics. However, what we saw in 2009 didn’t look very accurate and actually seemed worse than what we saw in the few opportunities that he got in 2007 and 2008.
I wonder if the help that he got with his mechanics was actually harm. Does anybody know if there was actually any changed in what he was doing in ‘07 and ’08 and what he did in ’09? It would be nice to think that there was something coached in that shouldn’t have been and that it can be coached back out so that we can stop worrying about the QB position for a while.
Quinn’s mechanics looked worse to me this year, but I couldn’t point out exactly what looked different/worse off the top of my head.
The playbook looked a lot worse this year. I kinda miss Chud.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I am not a fan of daboll at all. not just the plays but sometimes the decisions/play situations.
I was watching NFL network NFL replay. they had the game where we were facing the lions. they also had a Video in Video of mangini talking about the playcall. it was an incomplete pass to I think maybe Robo. he was a good 5 yards passed the first down line (it was a 3rd and about 4) and the pass was wide. he said he wanted to pass it b/c he thought there was a blitz coming.
so you think they are going to blitz and you have your QB take a 5 step drop from center and have more late breaking routes? that sounds dumb to me…especially since it stopped the clock at 1:57 and we had to punt. there were 2 things I would do.
1. Just run it up the gut. you probably wouldn’t get the first down, but you would get positive yards maybe AND more importantly the clock would be running. yes detroit had a timeout but then they would have to burn it.
2. (this is my preferable choice) run a WR/RB screen. throw it to either stuckey or harrison. with those guys, they can get YAC in the open field with their agility and ability to make guys miss. I have always been a fan of a quick screen when you feel like the team will blitz. you shift blockers to one side and the QB gets it away and its almost like a running play. I would want to make sure that the throw was off quick and the receiver had it. this way the blitz doesn’t affect you as much. also, with a screen, you are more likely to get the 4 yards than running it up the gut with jamal lewis…and if it is complete and a first down the chains move and the clock is going.
also, I just criticize the move of saying you think they will blitz (which does make a lot of sense for the situation) then having your QB take the snap from under center anyways instead of a shotgun…unless you were going to run the ball.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
I don’t trust Harrison catching the ball. He is great in space once he has the ball, but his hands aren’t as reliable as you want on 3rd down. Additionally, we were terrible on screens this year.
Running and/or a draw…maybe. Do you remember the pace of that game though? They couldn’t stop us and we really couldn’t stop them either. 2 minutes is a lot of time for Stafford and Megatron to go the length of the field, even with no TOs. Maybe you do catch them in the blitz and you can take the draw for a 1st, but I am glad someone on the staff was aggressive and called the play like they had nothing to lose. Because we didn’t at that point in the season, we sucked.
Throwing is absolutely a legitimate way to beat the blitz, but where and how you throw is key. That’s the whole concept behind the “hot route”. You can try to block everyone or you can let them come and get rid of the ball.
I think you are right to criticize the 5-step drop and throwing from under center, but I like the decision to be aggressive and pass. But that was the story of our offense last year; we didn’t get the details down, and in the NFL, details win.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I do see your point. I guess it is always easy to criticize in hindsight but when you pass the ball in that situation and the opposing team wins with mere seconds on the clock, it is a bit of a head scratcher.
my problem wasn’t as much throwing but the combination of throwing under center and having routes that seemed as though they were late breaking a few yards past the first down mark. when he thew the ball incomplete, his receiver had just gotten open five yards past the first down mark. I understand being aggressive but my goal in that situations is
A) try to keep the clock moving
B) try for the first down
For me it is like 1 and 1a. I want to do both and while this was aggressive, It was risky in trying to accomplish A.
This is just one play though that I analyzed. I was not a fan all season of many of the passing plays called but it is always easy to look back in hindsight. still, I would not have minded a change at OC.
I would love to have a new oc, throwing on 3rd & 3 or less running on 3rd & 7. seen it to many times. As far as Quinn, Holmgren is a QB guru & if he is ment to be a good QB we will see soon. how can you evaluate a QB when he has WRs here one day & gone the next, or they cant catch (Edwards).
Lots of good teams throw on 3rd and 3 or less and succeed in the NFL. Part of that goes back to a team’s identity, and we didn’t have one for most of the year. If you are the Colts, you believe in passing the ball, and you are probably going to pass. If you are the Jets, you believe in running the ball and you will probably run the Power O play to the right.
At that point in the season, we didn’t know who we were or what we were doing. There is nothing wrong with throwing on 3rd and 3 if that’s who you are as a team.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Additionally, we were terrible on screens this year.
I’m not sure that ‘terrible’ adequately describes those attempts. In fact, I think you have to go back to pre-DA to find a point where the screens were something better than terrible. There may have been one or two good ones in that window (blind squirrel rule) but mostly the screens have been three years of watching a slowly developing train wreck.
Its not just the 3rd & short, the play calling overall is bad. i watched one game where we called a screen play 3 times in a row. & once the next series. And that stupid fake draw to the rb where Quinn does the shoulder pump fake afterwords is horrible, when you do it everyother play it doesnt work.
Early in the year, it was awful. We did all sorts of things that didn’t make sense and we were getting “too cute”. I did a whole post about it. As the season wore on, it seemed like we stopped that sort of thing, or at least cut down to a level acceptable of a 1st year OC.
You can’t just blame the offense on “bad playcalling” after the play doesn’t work. A playcaller’s job is to put his players in position to succeed. Players still have to make the plays. I loved some things we did that didn’t work, and I hated some things we did that worked.
I’d still say the overall offensive design was worse than the actual calling of plays.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
The nitpicks I have with this post are:
1. I wouldn’t take a just a fourth for Quinn. He’s a cheap backup if nothing else. I’m not a fan of his and I don’t think he’s a starter but his value is higher than a 4th. Hold on to him and let Bradford develop some if you can’t get good value for Quinn (high third).
2. I know it’s a popular opinion, but you can’t expect the Raiders to take ALL our terrible QBs…
3. If you’re going intermediate vet, I’m not sure you need to trade a pick. Sign one of the equally mediocre QBs available via FA. That, or just hang on to Quinn. At least that way there’s a chance (although I’m clearly not holding my breath) he turns the corner.
Brady Quinn will never be a good quarterback for the Browns.
When is the last time the Raiders traded for a QB from another team? I don’t think we can assume that at worst the Raiders will give us something.
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