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Around SBN: NFL Week One: Previews and Predictions for all 15 games

How to beat the House, NFL Edition: Intro

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The times, they are a changin'
Every single year it seems like certain teams are good, certain teams suck.  I am not talking about the Dolphins going from 1-15 to the playoffs in one season.  I am talking about being good.  Year in and year out, this team is in the playoff hunt.  It doesn't matter what happens, we know that we are going to win at least 9 games and be playing for something on week 17.  Every year there are teams that suck.  I mean at the top of the draft every year, making horrible additions in free agency and even worse draft selections.  

Star-divide

It was eating at me.  Every year a handful of teams can be counted on as being in the playoff race.  Colts, Pats,SteelersEagles and Ravens.  It was pissing me off.  What did these teams know?  What did my team not?  Was it luck? (doubtful) or was it something else that I wasn't even thinking of?  I needed to know more.
I decided to do some digging.  It all started out as a discussion topic between my friends and I.  It took off.  Instead of sitting around arguing over what NBA player we could take in a fist fight (Tony Parker, in a laugher), it turned into what was making the Eagles good every year.  We had two Browns fans (my brother and myself) a Bengals fan, and a Steelers fan (every joke was a Ravens one).  
For the past two months we have been tearing down the NFL and more importantly the NFL draft.  We went into this with open minds.  Nothing was off limits.  We tested everything.  I do mean everything.  Should you take a RB early in the draft?  What is the best range to draft a QB?  Is it worth drafting a TE?  After all, what better way to learn than examine the past? 
We all agreed going in, that we needed to start over from the start.  My entire life I have heard certain rules of football.  Stop the run.  Defense wins championships.  Never take a kicker in the first round of a draft.  We forgot them all.  We needed to start with a brand new blank slate.  The reason I am stressing this is two fold.  One, when I ask stupid questions like "Did the Raiders make a mistake taking a kicker in the first round of the 2000 draft?" you grasp the fact that I am not retarded, I am just checking everything.  
Secondly, and most importantly, because we are going to need your help.  The reason I am posting these theories and ideas here is because I haven't found another place that has so many knowledgeable and educated fans in one place.  I have been on this website for years and have come to respect the knowledge of the members here as much as my closest friends.  
We are by no means done.  But I want to start testing these theories.  I am going to post these ideas and I need everyone here to look at them openly and try and find holes.  Are my levels for a player being "good" too high or too low?  Are some of my ideas just too crazy to get behind?  I am excited to get some feedback and see if these ideas hold water.  What more can I add?  What am I missing?  As of right now, I have at least three more posts planned, and I really hope to add more as I go.  
I went in with an open mind, and was blown away by many things that I have found.  My mind has been changed on certain things that I have been adamantly against in the past.
IF everything goes as planned, I hope to have my own draft board ready to go, with everything we have learned, for the opening night of the draft April 22nd.  Who knows, it may look like Mel Kiper's draft board, but I am guessing it won't be close.  Either way, it will be good for a laugh.
I don't know how many of these posts I will be able to do.  I have a butt load of data, some which really matters, most of it just the ramblings of a mad man.  I will do my best to get these all out in a thoughtful, easily readable manner.  So, if you don't mind, on to the first installment of "How to beat the House, NFL Edition."
How far do we go back in getting information?
We can all agree that the NFL has changed, but when?  That was our first problem.  How far do we look back?
Rules have changed.  Coaching philosophies have changed.  The game has changed so much that a former Super Bowl winning Head Coach, Joe Gibbs, had a losing record when he decided to return.  An offensive genius went from a 124-60 record to a 30-34 record.  Don't blame Gibbs, he had no chance. 
Blame what you want.  College's becoming passing factories in order to compete with the big boys.  Today's NFL defenses are filled with speed at every level.  Good luck running wide on LB's and DE's that run 4.5's.  
We can argue at what point in time this happened, but for myself, I put it at the season of '99.  This isn't because the Browns returned in '99, it was because of "The Greatest Show on Turf".  It was the second straight season that a passing offense was destroying the NFL (the '98 Vikings with Moss and Carter were a missed FG from a Super Bowl) and had finally punched through and won a Super Bowl.
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By no means am I saying that these teams won with the passing game alone.  But these teams were using a passing attack as their main weapon.  They were using the pass to set up the run.  They were zigging when everyone else was zagging.  They had found something, they just didn't know what.
Over the following ten seasons many factors changed the NFL.  
Personally, I think that the rule changes that the NFL has enforced over the past ten years are the biggest culprit.  Quarterbacks receive Presidential-like protection from pass rushers.  Intentional grounding rules were changed so QB's could more easily avoid sacks.  Last but not least, the most influential ruling of them all; before the '04 season, the NFL instructed officials to pay special attention to illegal contact, defensive PI and defensive holding.  No longer were defenders allowed to beat the crap out of WR's and TE's.  After 5 yards, the offensive player has a hassle-free route to run.  Passing was easier in the todays NFL.  
Here is the best example I can give you, see if you can guess the two QB's:
Player A:  59.0 Cmp%, 22-10 TD-INT Ratio, 7.9 YPA
Player B: 62.1 Cmp%, 21-12 TD-INT Ratio, 7.0 YPA
Outside of the higher YPA (7.9 is very good, while 7.0 is good, but not great), the stat lines look very similar.  Both of these players played their home games in the same stadium.  One of these QB's was considered one of the greatest of all-time and won a Super Bowl in the season mentioned above and also played in that seasons Pro Bowl.  The other is considered re-tread and nothing more than a replaceable QB.  Give up?
Player A is John Elway in the '98 season.  Player B is Kyle Orton this past season.  By no means am I saying that Orton sucks.  In fact, I think Orton had a very good season.  But in ten years a season like the one Orton just had went from being good enough for the Pro Bowl and Super Bowl to not even being good enough to be the 7th alternate in the '09 Pro Bowl.  
Ten seasons.  Ten seasons of drafts, stats and results to look over.  What was making these teams good?  What was making teams bad?  
The Three B's.
We have looked at the bad teams and the good teams.  Many different factors lead to a team being good or bad, but every reason we could think of fell into these three categories (in no particular order).
  1. Bad Leadership****CHANGED****:  Teams that consistently make poor decisions.  Whether it be hiring a coach with a poor track record, or picking in the draft poorly on a consistent basis.  Take the Bills for example, they just fired a coach who had one winning seasons in the 10 years he was a NFL coach and replaced him with a HC who hasn't been a NFL coach in 11 seasons (remember how Gibbs fared when he came back?) and lead Georgia Tech to better than a 7-5 record once in 6 seasons!  Does anyone expect the Chan Gailey tour to work in Buffalo?  Anyone?  This is a great example of poor leadership.  Other franchises can swap out HC's and keep winning (Pittsburgh) because of good leadership.
  2. Bad Contracts:  This is by far the biggest issue.  Teams have a limited resource (money under the cap) yet they use the money in stupid ways.  Take the Raiders and Gibril Wilson.  Not only do they sign a completely replaceable safety to a nearly 40 million dollar deal, they cut him the following season.  That contract stays.  Bad contracts=bad teams more than anything else I looked at.  Good players can have bad contracts (think Kellen Winslow in Tampa or Reggie Bush in New Orleans).
  3. Bad Luck:  This is the only thing on this list that a team cannot control.  Every team will encounter this.  Good teams overcome it.  Bad teams crumble.  It happens every season.
It bothers me when someone says a team sucks because a coach is doing a poor job.  That category is not a catch all.  I am talking about a team that either has zero leadership and direction (think the Bills under Jauron) or have the talent to succeed yet somehow always end up in extended losing streaks and falling below expectations (Cowboys before this season).  
Bad contracts are ten times more important, and dangerous, than coaching.  Bad contracts can kill a team in one off-season (think Browns of '07-'08).  This is the category in which we have done the most work on so far.  Bad drafting leads to bad contracts, which leads to bad football teams.  Sometimes it is just that easy.
Now you know
The reason I explained everything is so you can get an idea of what I am trying to do here.  Now I need you, the reader, to try and tear this apart.  In a friendly way.  I need input from you.  I want opinions on how to tweak things.  I, with help from others, have created formulas for many different things; from how to evaluate a QB, to what should be the highest amount we should be able to offer rookies.  I am still trying to figure out the best way to gauge RB's and WR's.  Any ideas and thoughts are welcomed and expected.
First a couple of rules.  
  1. The Colts are thrown out.  They do everything wrong, according to us, yet somehow win.  I mean EVERYTHING.  This is because of one reason.  Peyton Manning.  This isn't just sour grapes.  Peyton Manning is an outlier.  He is on another plane all by himself.  No other team, and I mean every single team we looked at, was successful following the Colts lead.  Going into this, I always considered Manning the best QB of my time.  After this, I now consider Peyton Manning the greatest football player to ever play.  That's how far the numbers are skewed by him.  As of right now he is already the highest ranking QB in our study.  We are talking about a formula that includes longevity yet he has 5-6 years to put even more distance between him and the field.  My respect for Peyton Manning went up about 10 fold in the past two months.  Building a football team in the mold of the Indianapolis Colts should be franchise suicide.  In fact, we believe part of the reason that the Colts had trouble winning under Manning in the early-mid '00s was their asinine roster construction and drafting.  At some point in time, Peyton just became too freaking good to let this matter and the Colts haven't looked back.  Peyton Manning has become self aware and he will end up killing all of man kind.
  2. Everything I have done, and will do, can change.  There have been ideas and thoughts that I have had that I could not convince myself that maybe, just maybe I was wrong.  No longer.  Open mind.  Remember this when I try and explain something that sounds totally foreign to you, because trust me, I will.  Consider it a rebirth of football.  Without all the crying.
  3. I am willing to explain anything and everything that I put out.  If something doesn't make sense, ask me and I will do my best to explain how I got there.  I will not be right in every aspect, this is the only thing that I am sure of.  After all, this is the brain child of three guys who spend the majority of their free time drinking beer, arguing over who is the greatest playmate, and whether or not we as a group could defeat Hulk Hogan in a 3 on 1 match (no freaking doubt).  We are not MENSA members.  Challenge us.
  4. Have fun with this, because I have.
You will be shocked to see what I have found.  The NFL has changed, NFL teams need to do the same.
We can no longer draft by the old set of rules.  We need new ones.  Why are we drafting certain positions in the first round even though the numbers show that it is a foolish choice?  We are talking about smart people making stupid moves.  I am here to try and change this, but I am going to need some help.  

Next Post: Where is the best value of the NFL draft?

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QBs

I was watching “Mike and Mike In the Morning” this morning and they brought up Joe Montana and questioned him about the receivers he threw to during their discussion about Peyton Manning… I think his response really sums up how much things have changed.

I don’t know verbatum what he said but he for the most part said “if WRs nowadays got half the treatment that they gotten back when he played, the defense would be serving jail sentences and if his team was playing by today’s rules their numbers would be exponentially higher than they are.”

Now remember that isn’t verbatum and I’m too lazy to go search for transcripts of the show… But I think that Joe’s statements speak volumes to how much the game has changed.

by 3PON Nemo on Feb 4, 2010 9:17 PM EST reply actions  

<<>>

Okay maybe I’m not lazy enough… here is the interview… and apparently it was on “The Herd.”

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/show?showId=mikeandmike#

Its under top clips if this doesn’t take you to it right to it.

by 3PON Nemo on Feb 4, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I was in the car most of the day and heard Montana’s interviews on both Mike and Mike and the Herd. You got the quote pretty much right.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 4, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m very excited about this.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 4, 2010 9:31 PM EST reply actions  

I am excited too. I was slightly disappointed when I realized his was only an intro (i guess I didn’t catch the intro part in the title that I know see). this is perfect dramatic timing. he just says hopefully you will enjoy and leaves it at that, creating massive suspense…brilliant B19K

by bross09 on Feb 5, 2010 2:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you could expand “bad contracts” to bad personnel decisions. This would include things like moving up to draft martin rucker. his contract wasn’t really detrimental to the team, but it effectively wasted two draft picks and a roster spot.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Feb 4, 2010 9:35 PM EST reply actions  

draft picks

I also wanted to mention they should evaluate draft picks, and correlate to value in trades. I just don’t get how things are valued currently.

by rlmthree on Feb 5, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

We figured at bad personnel decisions usually ended up turning into bad contracts.

Pretty much, if you spend three draft picks trading and drafting a player, a team is going to have to sign two players to make up for the traded picks.

At some point, in our thinking, a bad trade/draft pick will have to be corrected with another contract or draft pick.

But you have the idea that those two really go hand in hand.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

ok that makes sense to me, I didn’t account for having to make the signing to cover up for the bad draft pick, and even though poor drafting doesn’t necessarily imply poor contracts, I understand putting them under the same category.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Feb 5, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

First, everyone rec this.

Now, here are my attempts to “tear apart” what you said “in a friendly way”.

1. Bad contracts don’t have to linger with a team. If you cut someone, his signing bonus money accelerates into the cap the year you cut him. This is money you already paid him (at the time of signing the deal), so you have to account for it at some point in time, it just happens sooner after the cut. If you take the June 1 rule in to account, you can cut a guy after June 1 and spread that cap hit over 2 years.

Non-signing bonus money/money NOT already paid does not count against the cap after the player is cut. A player’s “base salary” is money you have not yet paid him (and will not pay him after cutting him), so you do not have to account for that on the cap. This is an immediate cap savings.

That said, consistently signing players to bad contracts, and then NOT cutting them can cripple a team cap-wise. The Raiders actually made a smart move by cutting Wilson, as he is probably no longer on their cap. If you sign a player that is too good to cut, but you sign him to a bad contract, that’s a problem. I don’t see it being the case that this is the limiting factor for consistently bad teams, though, and I am not sure if it is possible at all.

Who are the players that the Lions have who are too good to cut? Megatron and…Julian Peterson? Couldn’t you honestly cut just about any other player and expect to replace his production (or exceed it) within 2 years via the draft or FA? I don’t think they could potentially overpay Calvin right now, and even if they could, Calvin’s contract would not be the limiting factor in the development of the Lions.

Similarly, I don’t think we could overpay Joe Thomas right now. Even if we signed him to a “bad” contract, the cap room that Corey Williams and Donte Stallworth are eating up would still trump Thomas’ enormous contract as wasted cap space. The fact that guys like Williams and Stallworth are eating up our cap room isn’t killing us right now (we would cut them if it were), our lack of talent is. We will have the room to sign our #7 pick. We have the room to sign good FAs.

Sure, the Raiders have been handing out awful contracts for years, but the fact that they have still had the room to throw record-breaking money at people year after year and to consistently sign their top-10 picks says something. They still have the cap room to do that. The problem is that the guys they put on the roster suck.

2. The Colts do count. I actually think they have designed their team very well, considering their position. Of course their strategy will not work for anyone else because no one else has Peyton Manning. That said, their team design is incredibly intelligent. They know they have one of the best QBs of all time, and they are building the team around him:
Sacrifice size/strength for agility and pass protection on the line. Find backs who can contribute in the passing game. Find a way to run with those backs and that line. Get a TE who can help in that running game and who is also a great receiver. Put the pressure on other teams to score by scoring yourself, and have your defense be built around defending teams who are trying to catch up.

Not many other teams can follow that specific plan, but I think there are conceptual lessons to be learned from the Colts.

3. I really don’t understand what you are saying about coaching. My own personal philosophy has been that it can completely destroy a team’s hope, but can’t really increase it’s “upside”. A bad coach doesn’t motivate his players, can’t inspire them, and can limit their success. A good coach can put players in good position to win, but can’t win anything for his team. A coach won’t be able to turn 53 failures into super bowl contenders, but he will get his players to reach their potential, which often means getting a lot more production than we’d expect.

I look forward to this.

by rufio on Feb 4, 2010 10:49 PM EST reply actions  

I am feeling like it was a little soon for this essay of a comment. Sorry, I got a little excited.

by rufio on Feb 5, 2010 3:16 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s true about cutting players, but teams almost never cut a big contract early in the term of the contract, and a lot of the big contracts are given out to 1st round draft picks who almost never get cut until maybe the 4th or 5th season.

by Roger Dorn on Feb 5, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Dead Money

While cuts do result in “dead money” on the cap for only one year, tracking that dead money year-in and year-out will show a team who has consistent problems in talent evaluation.

by rlmthree on Feb 5, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

But I think that is really the issue: the talent evaluation. That’s the root of the problem.

Those contracts wouldn’t be bad contracts if the player works out. The big contract given to Joe Thomas as #3 overall is almost a bargain. Peyton’s rookie contract was definitely worth it. JaMarcus Russel’s contract sucks because he sucks. It would totally be worth it if he lived up to expectations.

by rufio on Feb 5, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

But on the flip side, Reggie Bush would be a good player at 2 million a season.

He is a bad contract at 8 million a year.

Good players can have bad contracts.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah but he’s easily cutable right now. He isn’t giving enough skill/production/threat of production over a replacement player either off the bench or via the draft or FA.

Why can you cut him and not pay him 8 mil a year? Because it wouldn’t take that much away from your team. If he would take too much away from the team if he was cut, he would be worth 8 million. What makes it a bad contract isn’t the contract, it’s the contract AND the player.

Like I said, probably just a disagreement in the way we talk about it, not an important conceptual difference.

by rufio on Feb 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

1. The thing about the contracts is that we were thinking that once a team signs a player to a huge contract, that team is stuck with that player for at least 3 years. Like Dorn said above, when a team sinks all that money in a position, most teams (Raiders are the one team who don’t seem to care, see Wilson, Gibril and Hall, DeAngelo) will keep them. Yes, teams could cut the player right away, but 31 out of 32 won’t.

2. I am by no means saying that the Colts drafting strategy isn’t genius. All I am saying is that no team in the NFL can follow the same path. Any team that doesn’t care about running the football or drafting offensive lineman is going to be a bad football team (see the Browns ‘99-’06). Peyton Manning is that much of a difference maker.

3. The coaching thing is simply this, good coaches always seem to get the most out of their teams (Parcells, Bilichick, and Holmgren types) while other coaches for some reason or another always seem to be under expectations (Norv Turner, etc.) We didn’t want this category to be a catch-all, so we made it the hardest category on the list to fill.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting that you allude to drafting offensive lineman. I would expect one of the conclusions you will reach are that the teams with the best offensive lines are far and away better overall.

by Roger Dorn on Feb 5, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with you.

but on the subject of O-Line, i would say they have had some great O-Lines. yes they do not draft lineman that high but they know how to get value out of guys. they never had a ton of elite players but they had a lot of good starters and good football players.

I was looking at their line for the super bowl team and you have Tarik Glenn (1st rounder), Ryan Lilja (UDFA), Jeff Saturday (UDFA), Jake Scott (5th round) and Ryan Diem (4th round). yes they really never drafted high but they were able to assess value extremely well among offensive lineman and find many diamonds in the rough. I am not saying all of these guys are spectacular players, but they are all amazing values for where they were found. but at the same time, your point was drafting O-Lineman a lot and in higher rounds. yes they didn’t do that but their front office was good at finding quality later.

I agree on all your main points though. it just seemed like at first that you were saying they didn’t build a good offensive line.

by bross09 on Feb 5, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

it just seemed like at first that you were saying they didn’t build a good offensive line.

The thought behind the Colts is, the reason they “have a good line” is because of Manning. You take any human outside of Manning (you could argue Brees also) behind that line and that QB would get killed and perform pretty much like Curtis Painter did.

Manning is so good a checking into the right play and getting rid of the ball ASAP that his offensive line just has to slow down a rush for him to be the most efficient QB we have ever seen. You put DA behind center for the Colts, that team wins 6 games.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

6?

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Feb 5, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

6.

That of course is my opinion, but that team can’t run the ball.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I was joking. It would be an interesting experiment to see what our QBs could do on top tier teams.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Feb 5, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

My brother and I have a 50 dollar bet: Would Peyton Manning have led the Tampa Bay Bucs to 8 wins this season. Everything else stays the same, can he do it?

We want to get 50 peoples answers, majority rules. Don’t answer until after the QB article goes up next week.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Pins and needles.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Feb 5, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

My answer is yes already, but I will wait for the article.

by Roger Dorn on Feb 5, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Easily.

Please Lord, Just one Browns Superbowl in my lifetime.......

by DaveDawg09 on Feb 5, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

yes…

they won 2 games??

Peyton led the Colts to 7 4th Quarter comebacks in 2009. that translates to a 9-7 record. WIthout peyton, the colts are 7-9.

I know there are more factors, but peyton has that much of an impact. his whole career, he averages about 4.5 4th quarter comebacks a year i think. that is over 4 wins for his team every year. I cannot think of a more valuable player.

by bross09 on Feb 6, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe Peyton is the most valuable player in football. This is a terrible way to prove that though. 4th quarter comebacks? Really?

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 7, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. That proves nothing. Does the rest of the team get no credit for fourth quarter comebacks? And why is a fourth quarter comeback better than dominating the whole game and winning by a huge margin?

by Buckeye Brad on Feb 7, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Its one stat but at the same time, peyton did so much for that team besides 4th Quarter comebacks. I look at that team, and place josh Johnson on there, and I see a team that is 9-7 at best. I put manning on the bucs and I see them finishing about 9-7 too.

by bross09 on Feb 8, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I know that. I wasn’t arguing that Peyton Manning isn’t important for the Colts, because obviously he is, I was arguing that using 4th quarter comebacks is a terrible way to demonstrate that.

by Buckeye Brad on Feb 8, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

It might not be the most accurate way but it has some validity. obviously there are more factors, but when we are talking about peyton, coupled with it, it works.

by bross09 on Feb 13, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess maybe. there are still great players that were found later. Ryan diem is a very good player, saturday is a pro bowler…

but I do see your point.

I agree with DA…but that IS DA.

by bross09 on Feb 6, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

1. I think this is really just a labeling difference. I don’t think you can escape the fact that the root of all these teams’ problems is talent evaluation and acquisition. The contracts are a result of that problem, and there very well may be a strong correlation between something like dead cap space and crappiness of a given team.

2. Peyton makes a huge difference, but the Colts still have to protect him. It doesn’t matter how good your QB is, you still have to protect him. The Colts do draft offensive linemen. They just know they can find great values because they don’t need to find the rare guys who everyone else wants. Everyone else is looking for a 350lb man who can move well, but they only need 280lb guys who can move well, who are much more common. Thus they can sink more resources in to other areas. Other teams can follow similar plans, they just have elite QBs/passing games too. SD, NO, NE, GB, ARI, to a lesser extent HOU. Even pIT might fit that bill right now.

3. I think that’s fair.

by rufio on Feb 5, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you are splitting hairs.

Yes, talent evaluation is key. However the difference between a bad contract and talent evaluation is the difference between hindsight and foresight. Bad contracts can also include injuries. There are a lot of high profile examples where people slap thier heads when they hear an exapmle (raiders are notorious, but as you have pointed out they seem to cut their loses quickly. The Redskins love doing it too) but most are just people who underperform or get hurt and the team tries to get value out of them anyway. The draft is notorious anymore with the capacity to sink a franchise due to first round contracts nowadays. I would argue that most first rounders don’t pan out and never get close to the value of thier contracts, and ultimately hamstring poor teams by being a burden drafted due to a ‘need’. Furthermore, if teams actually managed to sucessfully gamble on the later round talent (evaluated and consentually agreed on by the ‘experts’) that work out in thier positions of need over drafting first round talent busts, that “talent evaluation” would be light years beyond any evaluation system we have right now. Al Davis is trying, he’s just looking riddiculous doing it. I understand that talent evaluation is key, however you will have to go into a lot more depth than just naming it that if you want to distinguish poor evaluation from all the factors that can lead to a bad contract.

I know it’s not favorable in sports, but there is a lot of luck involved. Not like lottery luck, but more like texas hold ‘em luck. Except there is no hiding your cards. You’re all in every play you make, and the whole world sees it and then places blame once the cars are all on the table.

P.S. God hates you.

by einman77 on Feb 5, 2010 10:42 PM EST up reply actions  

The draft is notorious anymore with the capacity to sink a franchise due to first round contracts nowadays.

This is exactly my point. Wasting huge money on top-5 picks sucks, and it doesn’t help a football team. But that contract isn’t the limiting factor in making that team better. It is the lack of talent on the team.

The team that signs J. Russel to a record contract (a terrible contract) will still have enough money to sign their top-10 pick next year and to sign average players to huge deals in FA.

I never said anything about luck not being involved. Good talent evaluators consistently evaluate at a higher percentage than bad ones. Its like free throw shooting; 95% is great, but there is always a chance a 95% shooter will miss. I’d put talent evaluators at lower %s, but its the same principle.

by rufio on Feb 6, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

As far as the Colts go, I think Manning is probably the best QB of the last 10 years but as of tonight has only been able to give the Colts one Super Bowl, and the Colts have been so good year in and year out that the only way to measure and judge their success is through Super Bowls. The only problem I see with the way the Colts have done things is that if he goes down, there is no one on this earth who can take his place, and that’s, even with his healthiness, is a huge risk that they take every Sunday of every year.

Also I’m taking the Saints on Sunday.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Feb 5, 2010 1:15 AM EST reply actions  

Crap…I just found out tonight that I will not be able to watch the super bowl…I feel like I might cry.

by bross09 on Feb 5, 2010 2:41 AM EST up reply actions  

It was eating at me. Every year a handful of teams can be counted on as being in the playoff race. Colts, Pats,Steelers, Eagles and Ravens. e

What I think these teams have is a consistent organization philosophy that does not include sucking (see Lions, Millen). These teams have found what works for them and they start every season (Feb.) assessing what they can do better their team within in their established framework and seek out what little tweaks they can make to their teams to maintain their competitive advantage.

My examples would be the way that the Colts are able to shuffle through WRs and RBs and still remain successful and how the Steelers and Ravens know their bread and butter is in defense and mistake free offense (although i think the steelers forgot this this year, which led to their poor showing, coupled with the fact that we exposed them to be soft!).

The Eagles I think are on the verge of actually doing more than just making the playoffs and losing because of their talented young receivers and they too have a consistent philosophy. The only problem i see with the Eagles is that they seem to tilted towards trying to outpass and outscore other teams.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Feb 5, 2010 1:23 AM EST reply actions  

Its a combination of not doing the things bad that B19K said.

1. Bad coaching hurts a team. These organizations are good and finding good coaches. the rooneys always seem to strike gold with noll, cowher (who I didn’t realize was the position coach for minnifield and dixon) and mike tomlin. they just seem to find great coaches, the great organizations (which could be construed as luck but I see it as smart owners who can see success in someone and pick ppl with a track record of success). I remember many (including me) criticized the ravens when they made john harbaugh their coach. I thought “this guy was a special teams guy in the NFL until this past season…he has never been a coordinator or a HC”. It is still early but I seem to be eating my words. I am starting to feel good about the mangini hire. the guy did have success when he was given decent pieces (and didn’t have favre blowing his playoff chances).

the bad teams hire bad coaches, I know its simple to say, but they make bad personnel moves (and often hire from within instead of going with a guy from another team). the raiders have had countless coaching blunders such as lane kiffin, norv turner (who sucks wherever he goes), and bill callahan. all of these guys were horrible wherever they went. the lions mediocrity though I put on Millen, and not as much on the coaching decisions, though some were not great.

2. The good teams do make wiser contracts while the worse teams often times have more bad contracts. I do not think that the contracts themselves make the teams significantly worse (but they can help), but they are just a sign of the competence/incompetence of the front office. With a good owner to hire a good coach, you have to have a good GM (which requires a good owner to hire the right one). a good GM will not waste a ton of money on a gibril wilson. a good GM will do something like pick up jeff saturday as a UDFA. these things do not directly contribute to how great or horrible the team is (but can) but are merely a sign for how good the GM is. even the best make mistakes, but the better ones tend to have players sign better contracts.

3. Luck cannot be controlled

4. This relates into bad contracts, but bad drafting. I think this may be number 1 (or a close #2 to having the right coach/GM in place). bad drafting can give you bad contracts. in general, the smarter GMs show it in the draft and the bad ones consistently draft bad (ergo the browns for a long time…) I think this factor might be one of the key factors.

the bills of the late 70’s to early 80s were a good example. they consistently picked high and would make picks liek tom cousineau over the 4 multiple pro bowlers and the 1 HOFer in the top 10. they would pass on mark gastineau, pass on bob golic (and then get another not as good DT later).

when a team drafts bad, it ends up being bad. the draft is the key to the success of any NFL team, even more so than in other sports. in Baseball, occasionally a draftee from the first will never make it into the majors. in Basketball, after the top 10 or so, it is a crapshoot and doesn’t matter a ton (especially since you just need that 1 big star, and a lot of guys you get are through free agency and trade). with football where you have to have 53 players and a practice squad, you have to build through the draft.

by bross09 on Feb 5, 2010 3:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Luck cannot be controlled, but risk can be controlled. The top teams take fewer risks, and they have contingency plans. Heck, the Patriots had one of the unluckiest experiences in 2008 (losing MVP Brady in the first game) and the team still finished 11-5.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin

by Spidey on Feb 5, 2010 12:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I agree. there is a difference though between luck and risk. I was just talking luck because it was one of the points mentioned in the article. I think the main things are getting the right people in place. getting a good coach, a good GM to analyze talent, and then using both to make the right decisions in the draft.

by bross09 on Feb 5, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

What we tried to do was remove the risk.

You cannot remove luck.

We call heads instead of tails before the ’07 draft, the Bucs pick 3rd, we pick 4th. Bucs take Joe Thomas, Browns take Gaines Adams.

Luck has a lot more to do with it than we sometimes think.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree…

I think luck has something to do with it, but luck is not controllable.

by bross09 on Feb 6, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

HAHA Good ol’ GB Wilson. He used to ride with me to football practice. But that stopped after I blew my ACL and MCL.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Feb 5, 2010 5:32 AM EST reply actions  

I like the nature of your post, your trying to have fun with a difficult concept.
And I see that you may have some seniority for being on this site for years.
We all have our theories of how we could improve the franchise.
Your points make sense to a degree, but I would argue that it is difficult to coach down a great athlete. I think they make way too much allowance for coaching and game planning to being the culprit for bad performance. While I do realize that a defensive player that is out of position due to schematics, and that a receiver that can´t modify his routes is predictable, it is hard to make great players look bad.
Bad contracts, while pertinent, are also not an excuse for bad drafting, signing and performance, when confronted with badness I have no moral excuse to add more badness, that´s the low road. And while it can be frustrating individually when players compare their salaries, this is not the player´s problem. You are right, the organization and the coaches have to give it their damndest, so the players can concentrate on playing.
Luck seeks fertile ground. You have to try to make your own luck by influencing the odds for luck happening.
What you´re talking about overall is controllable factors, you are seeking the recipe for success and there are several.
For starters, I submit that we need to cook up a new Browns recipe for success. We´ll get extra points for creativity and originality. I know everybody is on 2.0, 3.0, ect…we need our own 1.0.

by mooncamping on Feb 5, 2010 7:28 AM EST reply actions  

Oops, got side-tracked a little bit. The last sentence is exactly what you are proposing. Right?

by mooncamping on Feb 5, 2010 7:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I tend to believe as well that bad contracts are team killers, I am excited to see what you have found in this.

by Roger Dorn on Feb 5, 2010 9:08 AM EST reply actions  

The thing with Peyton Manning and the Colts, is that they got Tony Dungy. Dungy came in, taught Peyton the importance of playing complimentary football (sound familiar?), and Peyton’s been getting better ever since.

In his autiobiography, Dungy says that ever since he taught Manning the importance of complimentary football, Manning took less risks because he no longer felt like he had to carry the team by himself (just the offense). As a result, his turnovers dropped as the defense steadily improved.

by BrownDawg1409 on Feb 5, 2010 9:21 AM EST reply actions  

I don’t know how you can include the Eagles in your list of continuous successes, but have the Chargers as an example to avoid. Their situations over the last 10 years seems very similar to me. Also, the Ravens don’t really belong on this, in my opinion. I’d add the Chargers to your list, take away the Ravens.

The problem you have with Manning and the Colts seems to be a problem with this type of exercise in general. Individuals (coaches and players) are unique. Though I am interested to see how this plays out.

It seems by “bad coaching” you really mean “bad hiring of coaches”. Instead of critiquing the schemes or styles of the coaches, you are discussing the more macro- idea that owners/front offices need to make better decisions in picking the coaches. Is this what you are saying? Also, to what extent are you allowing coaches to grow or change? Once they are deemed a “bad coach” are they always a bad coach?

I would broaden “bad contracts” to bad team building. It is bigger than making a guy or two too rich. As rufio pointed out, the Browns have some terrible contracts on the books, but the Browns still have plenty of room to sign top draft picks and free agents. And thsoe bad contracts do belong to some decent players. Evened out, perhaps by the good players who are making pennies. Bottom line, it is my understanding that the salary cap is so high these days, and all teams are so good at managing their cap number, that it is rarely a deciding factor in making personnel moves. Also, with the CBA uncertainty, this analysis could change drastically in the next few months.

Instead, I would focus on talent and team building. Adding very talented players is a big part of it. But building a team for a system is a huge factor. Corey Williams is a good 4-3 player. I’m pretty sure of that. He is a bad 3-4 player. That’s a pretty simplistic example, but the Colts and Steelers have created such a solid foundation that they are playing a different game than the rest of the NFL. They are looking for pieces that fit into their team and scheme. We are looking for any talent, regardless of how it may be used.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 5, 2010 9:48 AM EST reply actions  

It’s a pretty nuanced position to discuss the cap. The Browns have some terrible contracts but also some amazingly cost effective contracts (see: Cribbs.) That said, the team has been bad for a long time, so what can we really learn from their situation at all?

by Roger Dorn on Feb 5, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I should add, which Bernie mentioned, that the Browns were not in particularly great shape with the salary cap in 2007 and 2008.

by Roger Dorn on Feb 5, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

We were not in good shape then, no. But we wouldn’t have needed a lot of cap space to spend on new bigtime FAs if Savage had hit on 50% of Bentley, Baxter, DA, Braylon, Pool, Wimbley, Quinn, Schaffer, Williams, and/or any of the later round guys he traded up to get.

I think we can learn from our own past mistakes. Instead of learning lessons of what to do, we can learn what to avoid. Like sucking in the draft for 5+ years.

by rufio on Feb 5, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

It seems by "bad coaching" you really mean "bad hiring of coaches". Instead of critiquing the schemes or styles of the coaches, you are discussing the me.ore macro- idea that owners/front offices need to make better decisions in picking the coaches. Is this what you are saying? Also, to what extent are you allowing coaches to grow or change? Once they are deemed a "bad coach" are they always a bad coach?

Correct.

I am not saying that because a HC went for it on fourth down, that makes him a bad coach. Every coach makes poor decisions. Good coaches avoid a pattern of poor decisions. Hiring good coaches shouldn’t be a hard thing. Sometimes a good candidate will be a poor HC, but some teams just make stupid hires. Chan Gailey in Buffalo?! Really?

As for bad coach becoming a good coach, we couldn’t think of one (not saying that he isn’t out there) of a coach all the sudden having the lightbulb go on. Coaches rarely go from being a “bad coach” to being a “good coach” over short periods of time.

I would broaden "bad contracts" to bad team building. It is bigger than making a guy or two too rich. As rufio pointed out, the Browns have some terrible contracts on the books, but the Browns still have plenty of room to sign top draft picks and free agents.

Our thinking was that a poor decision with a contract or high pick leads to another poor contract/drafting. Like I said above, these two things go hand in hand in our minds.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: a coach becoming good.

I’d argue that Belicheck, Wade Phillips, and Norv Turner all have become much better coaches than they were at one point in their career. I’d say Cowher was probably a much better coach at the end of his run than at the very beginning.

But some of this goes with my last point. Coaching probably means less if you have a system, strategy, plan in place above and around the coach. This is why Pittsburgh, Indianapolis and Baltimore can change coaches to relatively questionable and unproven candidates without missing a beat.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 5, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

If talent acquisition is systematic, teams can allow coaches to coach their own way without worrying about finding star coaches.

by gahnki on Feb 5, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

If by “coach their own way” you mean that they are allowed to have their own team rules and discipline guys and yell as much or as little as they want, than yes.

But the system that I speak of is way above this. It has to do with general strategy and theory of the team.

For example, Mike Tomlin was a defensive coordinator who ran a 4-3 Tampa 2, I believe. But the 3-4 zone blitzing system of the Steelers trumped anything Tomlin might prefer to do. Their strategy trumped all else.

There are some flaws in this because you are limiting the pool of players that are valuable to you. But I’m not sure you can afford to be Tressel-like in the NFL. That is, reinvent your team based on the personnel that you have in a given year.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 5, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

The steelers’ strategy trumped Tomlin’s because he kept LeBeau at DC. It isn’t the team’s system, it’s LeBeau’s. If Tomlin came in an said “I’d like to fire this HoF defensive coordinator who has had year after year of success in this city and put my own system in place” I think he could have done it. It would have been a stupid move, but it was probably his move to make.

You usually don’t Tresselize your playbook in the NFL because winning strategy is all about details and large numbers of minor changes, which probably take a while to put in. College doesn’t allow for that type of continuity (graduation) or minutiae (limited practice time), so bigger strategy changes can work and surprise your opponent.

Also, talent acquisition is different at the two levels. Tressel can get the hottest, highest-rated recruits out there and stragegize around them because his team will have better talent than everyone they face except maybe in the bowl game. In the NFL, the disparity in talent is smaller, and everyone takes turns in the draft, so getting pieces to fit coaching systems can be a way of finding better production out of worse picks (getting value). The coaches still need to find ways of working with what they have, of course, but coaching and talent acquisition need to go hand in hand in the NFL, whereas talent can dictate coaching in college.

by rufio on Feb 5, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting thought regarding the Steelers. I’m sure Tomlin’s feelings toward LeBeau’s system was made known before that hire was made. I have read reports that he was hired with the understanding that he wouldn’t be messing with the defensive system. As a defensive guy, that really limits what impact he was going to have on the the team. Not sure what would have happened if he tried to fire LeBeau right away or if he would have even got the job if that was his intention.

Great points on the differences between college and NFL. And the result of those differences was my point: stability ends up being more valuable than the larger pool of talent. There are some guys, regardless of talent, that the Steelers or Colts just won’t consider.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 5, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

There are some guys, regardless of talent, that the Steelers or Colts just won’t consider.

Don’t have to consider is even better.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Feb 5, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point about Tomlin and the defensive system. Who knows what would have happened if he would have tried to change things? That organization did know they were getting someone who was associated with the Cover-2/Tampa-2 scheme.

Anyway, i mostly agree with Ghanki that an organization can let the coach play his way and draft talent for him. The talent evaluators and coaches need to work together, though. Coaches need to let personnel guys draft the BPA to some extent, and personnel guys need to give the coach the kind of players he needs.

 It just shouldn’t be hard for a coach to make those guys fit his system because the “big” strategic differences in the NFL are less diverse than college, and there is more room to make the sorts of small changes that could incorporate a skilled player.

by rufio on Feb 6, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with the differentiation from college, of course. Multiple offenses work in college because of complete roster turnover every 4-5 years, but the NFL doesn’t have that issue.

Anyway, all offenses in the NFL are largely homogeneous. There is very little variation in scheme across the board. That was actually why I liked Chud’s offenses so much- they were a bit more vertical than most NFL teams. I mean, it’s pretty crazy to think that a series of three plays in Miami (What the media termed the ‘Wildcat’) has been the greatest offensive innovation since the Run and Shoot of the early ’90s.

Defensively, there is greater system variance but everyone is looking for similar athletes. Really, everything boils down to 1 gap or 2 gap systems. 4-3 one gap teams have a lot in common with Dick LeBeau’s system. It isn’t like Mike Tomlin’s system was THAT different than what the Steelers’ already had in place.

It all comes down to talent acquisition and value. It’s no different than baseball in that you are trying to get the most bang for your buck, although football is much more fair because of the salary cap. All teams must be smart with the cap if they want to win.

I believe the Steelers are great, not because of the system’s they run, but because of their front office’s ability to locate talent. I’m sure they’ve also brought in coaches who know what to look for talentwise. This is also why you see trends flip back and forth from 2-gap to 1-gap defenses over the last 30 years. As one defense becomes popular, it begins to be harder to find that talent, creating value in running the other system.

by gahnki on Feb 5, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

The fans and critics are not the IRS. Maybe the Browns franchise should refuse to reveal contract information. A fan has the right to demand a player he can dig. Period. The money and satisfaction of it is up to the FO and the player´s agent.

by mooncamping on Feb 6, 2010 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Stillers

You may cover this but how are you qualifying your “consitently good teams”?

Here is how Pittsburgh did over your span:

1999 6-10 Missed Playoffs
2000 9-7 Missed Playoffs
2001 13-3 Won AFC Central
2002 10-5 Won AFC North
2003 6-10 Missed Playoffs
2004 15-1 Won AFC North
2005 11-5 Wildcard
2006 8-8 Missed Playoffs
2007 10-6 Won AFC North
2008 12-4 Won AFC North
2009 9-7 Missed Playoffs

They only made the playoffs in 6 of those 10 years, and once was Wildcard. Two losing seasons (plus one even), and three excellent seasons (12 wins or more).

If we consider the model of the NFL to be 2-4 years of competitiveness, and 1-2 years of rebuilding, I think these guys are fitting perfectly. The best I wold say about them is that they avoid poor play (or lower expectations, which may have more to do with whether we consider a team to be doing well or not) for multiple years. I don’t see any way to consider this a “team of the decade” like was being talked about before this season.

Of course, even without their two Super Bowl wins, I would take being considered competitive year-in and year-out, so perhaps this is what you’re considering successful.

by rlmthree on Feb 5, 2010 11:10 AM EST reply actions  

Pretty much, any team that year in and year out is a playoff contender is looked at.

As much as I hate the Steelers, they have to commended on the fact that no matter who they lose, they are always in the playoff hunt.

I hated saying that.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Compared to the rest of the NFL that track record is pretty good. Five division titles in 11 years — what more do you want? Sure, the Colts and Patriots have been more consistantly better, but that’s about it. They only had two losing seasons in those 11 years; that’s pretty hard to do.

by Buckeye Brad on Feb 5, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you going to reference “The Loser’s Curse” study by Thaler and Massey when you examine the NFL Draft? In this day and age with a salary cap, their findings reveal a lot about the role the draft plays.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin

by Spidey on Feb 5, 2010 12:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Honestly, I had no idea that this was out there. Thanks for the tip, I am going to check it out tonight.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It summarizes and provides actual evidence of why drafting in the top-10 is awful for teams. Of course, all of their findings (and I bet many of your conclusions) will change if we get a rookie salary cap.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin

by Spidey on Feb 5, 2010 3:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

That is one very important thing we looked at.

If the CBA gets worked out (and I personally think that we will have one uncapped season but no lockout, there is just too much money to lose for everyone involved) the only aspect that will change with a rookie salary cap is the how high the ceiling for drafting a rookie will be.

It will go from 15 to 1. The floor of value that we found will still be the same.

This will all be explained in the next article Sunday.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

And, drafting has always been, and will continue to be, a core part of success. Before free agency, the draft was the only way to acquire talent. Now, the draft is the only way to get low cost talent in their playing prime. The overall Value/Price ratio falls substantially when players reach free agency. This is not to say that free agency is not useful, just that it comes with greater risk in terms of how far the ratio can fall.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin

by Spidey on Feb 5, 2010 2:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

You point out 1999 as a watershed season. A lot has been written recently about how little importance the running game has become since the rule changes of 1978 and later made it easier for QBs and WRs. The Rams just happened to be the culmination of all of these changes.

I might go further back to include the Vikings, the run-and-gun (Warren Moon again) for the discussion. However, it was not until 2001 and the Patriots that the evolution was complete. (Remember, the Ravens and JLewis would still win in 2000).

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin

by Spidey on Feb 5, 2010 3:15 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

We thought abut making it ’01 because of the Ravens, but we agreed that the two extra seasons would give us more data and give us a full ten seasons to look back on.

The more years we had the better gauge we had.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to nitpick, but if you’re including 1999 to 2009 then you have eleven seasons, not ten.

by Buckeye Brad on Feb 5, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Pfffffttttt. Math who needs it?

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Ha, you sound like one of my students!

by Buckeye Brad on Feb 5, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, anyone else having a weird problem with the right column of the website show up under the rest of the page?

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 5, 2010 3:45 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, me.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Feb 5, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Ouais.

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Feb 5, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Fixed now, but described and later explained by Chris over in Simmsinn’s fanshot here.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Feb 6, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Coaching in the NFL is more important than any other sport, to ignore it is stupid. Coaches in this league are worth their weight in gold.

Not sure I agree with this at all. I see coaching in the NFL like a standard density curve; a few poor coaches, a few special coaches, and a large number of replaceable ones.

by gahnki on Feb 5, 2010 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

I generally agree with what you’re saying, but coaching in the NFL is still much more important than in other sports. MLB managers have very little affect on the play of the game, other than changing pitchers, and the NBA is dominated by the players. Coaching and game-planning is much more important in the NFL because you have an entire week to create a game plan and most coaches call all the plays during the game. A great coach (or coordinator) can make a good team out of average players and a bad one can make an average team out of good players. We’ve seen that many times in NFL history.

by Buckeye Brad on Feb 5, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I still think that there are very few of those coaches/coordinators who can really make a team better, and very few (who have jobs) that can tank your team.

I would also argue that a great coach can only do so much, while a bad coach can absolutely wreck you.

To put numbers on it just as an example, I’d say a good coach could give you a 25% boost, and a bad coach could kill you about 75%.

by rufio on Feb 5, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right, I’m not saying that every coach in the NFL is like that, or even most coaches, but there are definitely more of them than in other sports. Guys like Walsh and Belichick — also Jim Johnson, Dick LeBeau and Mike Martz if you include coordinators — are good examples. You just don’t have coaches with that kind of affect on the game in baseball or basketball (I don’t know about hockey).

by Buckeye Brad on Feb 5, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

hockey is definitely more involved than baseball or basketball, but probably still below football.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Feb 5, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I know nothing about hockey. But they do seem to have no problem firing coaches in the middle of the season, sometimes just a few games in.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 5, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

its much more game management than anything else. Its not like a coach needs an offseason to put in a playbook or anything, but different coaches can put together lines completely differently, as well as deciding who to put out on the powerplay/penalty kill or when to change lines. lines are also mixed up by coaches often during games. getting the correct matchup for your team on the ice is a big part of coaching in the nhl, as well as whether you want to play possession, dump and chase, or some other strategy.

to sum it up, you can think of a hockey coach as a baseball manager with more roster choices and actual responsibilities during a game.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Feb 5, 2010 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, perhaps I misunderstood BK’s point. Professional football coaches have more activity and influence on the outcome of the games, but I took his point to mean that there’s some strict level of coaching hierarchy, which I believe to be untrue. It is why we see the same teams screw up continually while others seem to thrive, no matter the coach.

There may be certain ‘elite’ coaches, but even Bill Belicheck struggled in Cleveland. I think a good situation across the board (GM, Scouts, Head Coach, Staff, etc.) is preferable to having a supposedly ‘elite’ coach and nothing else.

by gahnki on Feb 5, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed. I would say Tomlin isn’t an “elite” coach, but that organization is built up so well around him it doesn’t matter, he can still win superbowls by merely being “good”.

by rufio on Feb 6, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

CHANGES SO FAR

I agree with what a lot of you are saying.

Switching the “bad coaching” to “bad leadership”. This includes GM/Presidents and in some really bad situations Owners (Washington).

We were including bad decision makers in the bad contracts section, but a good decision maker can make a poor decision. Hence the switch.

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2010 4:20 PM EST reply actions  

Talent Evaluation vs. Player Development

I’m not sure it’s all about spotting the good players and bad players in a draft. Even the experts are wrong about that more often than they are right.

I think it is about player development, which IS coaching. Just one example is local boy Josh McDaniels. McD developed a 6th round pick into the Tom Brady we know today; then, when Brady was hurt, he got a break-the-bank-in-KC year out of Matt Cassel; and now, by your own admission, he has gotten an Elway-like year out of perennial oaf Kyle Orton.

Another example was Cowher in Pittsburgh. How many LBs did he lose to free agency, only to have some unheralded guy step right in and play the spot?

We don’t need executives who can spot talent — we need coaches who can develop it.

by Oonagi on Feb 7, 2010 7:57 AM EST reply actions  

We don’t need executives who can spot talent — we need coaches who can develop it.

It is the chicken or the egg.

Maybe it was talent evaluators who kept digging up gems to put in their place?

by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 7, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

This is why I think that partnership between coach and GM is so critical. Savage got talented guys, but they weren’t always guys that were going to be able to succeed with Crennell.

I like how Mangini layed a foundation of veterans and guys who love the game of football, and is making his players learn and grow both mentally and physically. Now that he’s set that culture and everyone in the locker room expects that, it’s a much better place for young players to develop. The fact that he can say “I’d rather be 5-11 with players who love to play and are going to win every practice” and actually have the evidence to back that up means he can hold new players accountable. They had better learn. They had better work hard.

Now, if we can get young talented guys (up to Heckert et. al.) in to that kind of environment, they have a great chance of succeeding.

It’s like gardening. Even if we got the best seeds in the world, if they weren’t put in position to grow they would die off. Even if you have the best environment around, if you don’t have good seeds you won’t get great results. And the gardener might be an expert, and he/she might be able to get those plants to grow a little more than your average joe, but he/she won’t be able to make something out of nothing, and can certainly kill any and every plant if they do an awful job.

by rufio on Feb 7, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Cool post. I look forward to seeing what stuff you’ve found out. I can’t contribute much since I don’t know enough to do so, haha.

by emily522 on Feb 7, 2010 11:36 AM EST reply actions  

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