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Around SBN: UFC 143 Results: Winners, Losers, And Other Thoughts

Around the Pound (3/15): Media Reacts to Quinn, Wimbley Trades

Today's edition of Around the Pound is almost a continuation of yesterday afternoon's discussion of the Cleveland Browns' version of March Madness excitement -- trading QB Brady Quinn to the Denver Broncos and trading LB Kamerion Wimbley to the Oakland Raiders. If you missed the 900+ comments from Part 1 of the discussion, check it out here.

Now it's time to take a look at what the media thinks of the deal, both local and mainstream. Let's get started...

John Clayton: Browns Under Construction, Again

Don't think Holmgren, who ripped apart the Seahawks' roster after settling into the Seattle job in the late 1990s, is done at quarterback. Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace are caretakers until Holmgren develops a young quarterback from this year's draft. Drafting seventh, Holmgren would have to trade up to get Sam Bradford or Jimmy Clausen. Bradford probably will go No. 1, so the Browns would have to target the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' pick at No. 3 to jump ahead of the Redskins for Clausen.

If that fails, the Browns will have to look at Colt McCoy or Dan LeFevour in the second or third rounds.

Star-divide

Pete Prisco: Denver Fleeced Cleveland

Quinn has had some tough moments with the Browns, but he's never really been given much to work with or been truly given the keys the car. He will compete with Kyle Orton in Denver, and here's a guess that Quinn pushes Orton for the starting job.

The one knock on Quinn is that he didn't let it go last season, that he wouldn't make the chance throw. He has to do more of that. But once he gets around a better offense, I think he’ll do more of that.

I still can't believe the Browns are willing to play with Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace. Did they watch tape from 2009? Unless they draft a guy in the first round, the Browns will be a disaster in 2010. Delhomme and Wallace? How would you like to be stuck with that mess?

Terry Pluto: Browns Prompt Plenty of Questions

*Note: I encourage you to read Pluto's full column as always, as he offers more opinions on recent team moves than the selected quotations reprinted below.

Q: Do you think the Browns will draft a quarterback?

A: Definitely, perhaps as high as the second round. If not, then they'll use one of their three third-round picks on a quarterback. When he was in Philadelphia, current Browns General Manager Tom Heckert picked quarterback Kevin Kolb out of Houston with the second-round pick in 2007. Heckert targeted the guy, and took Kolb even though Donovan McNabb was clearly the starter. This makes me believe the Browns have their eye on a Kolb-type player in this draft.

Q: Like who?

A: The four quarterbacks expected to be taken in the second and third rounds are Colt McCoy (Texas), Dan LeFevour (Central Michigan), Tony Pike (Cincinnati) and Tim Tebow (Florida). At least one of these guys intrigues the Browns. Maybe they think Tebow can surprise his critics and develop into a solid pro despite his unorthodox throwing style. Or perhaps they really like McCoy or LeFevour.

Q: Did Wimbley have a good season?

A: I thought so. He led the team with 6.5 sacks. He is a good citizen. He is a free agent after 2010, and the Browns may have decided they didn't want to re-sign him.

Peter King: Monday Morning Quarterback

You think the McNabb market is soft? Look at what Brady Quinn yielded. Denver gave Cleveland versatile backup runner Peyton Hillis (who might be the best player in this trade), a sixth-round pick this year and a conditional pick in the 2012 draft that I'm told won't be better than a fourth-round pick. This for the 22nd pick in 2007, who had 12 starts to prove he belonged.

Unfortunately for Quinn the Cleveland regime changed, and Eric Mangini wasn't a big fan -- not that Quinn gave him much reason to be. In Denver, Quinn enters camp as the clear backup to restricted free-agent Kyle Orton (Josh McDaniels called Orton to tell him he was the starter on Sunday). But being under the tutelage of McDaniels should help Quinn, who needs to become less frenetic in his drops and picking out the open receiver.

Hillis prove more than capable under Mike Shanahan in 2008, playing running back and fullback for the Broncos and going on a strong five-game run in the backfield before tearing his hamstring late in the season; I guarantee he'll be a favorite of Mangini's for his versatility, the way Mangini loves players like Josh Cribbs and Blake Costanzo.

The Raiders get a rusher. Maybe. Kamerion Wimbley, the Browns' first-round pick in 2006, got off to a great start rushing the passer for Cleveland, with 11 sacks in 16 games as a rookie. In the 47 games since, Wimbley's had 15.5 sacks and too often gets caught in traffic, unable to consistently turn the corner and get to the passer. The Raiders paid a third-round pick for Wimbley on Sunday, a price I think is a little generous -- except when you consider they dealt another pass-rusher, Derrick Burgess to New England for third- and fifth-round picks last year, and Wimbley is much younger than Burgess.

Mike Lombardi: Hillis Iffy to Make Roster, Interested in John Fox

Yes, I know some fans might think Hillis is a valuable commodity, but his lack of blocking and production without the ball makes him very iffy to even make the Browns roster next season. Hillis might look good occasionally with the ball in his hands, but his lack of overall toughness without it has to be in question.

The Browns under Mike Holmgren are changing their approach to everything, and these changes will keep happening. Holmgren is in charge and is making his presence felt, so much that I often ask myself, “Where is Eric Mangini?” Mangini has gone from being in control of everything, from the décor of the office to just being in the office. His fate now is tied to Delhomme and Seneca Wallace.

Once the signing of Delhomme was announced, I wondered how much longer until the Browns announce the hiring of John Fox as head coach? Fox has less than a year left on his deal in Carolina, so the “Fox Watch” in Brownstown has officially begun. More on that later.

Final Compensation in Wimbley Deal

We originally thought we might receive the higher of the Raiders' third-round picks, which would have been No. 69 overall. Instead, we are receiving pick No. 85. It's still good to have another third-rounder, but it's not as close to a second-rounder as I had hoped.

Off-Beat Notes

  • There are no off-beat notes today. Eric Mangini and Mike Holmgren are scheduled to speak to the media at 4 PM, where they will surely address the big moves made on Sunday.

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Lombardi=idiot.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 15, 2010 3:40 PM EDT reply actions  

agreed.

Plus Prisco is in the group of idiots that still thinks BQ is at Notre Dame…

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s strange how many people want to pretend that BQ’s experience here never happened. Talk about how much time he saw and what kind of time that was if you want, but ignoring his entire tenure as a Brown? Odd.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 15, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep…

I love how walterfootball criticizes him in one sentence and then says the broncos got a franchise QB.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha! I saw that too.

by emily522 on Mar 15, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

They all said the same thing, Brady didn’t produce, but Cleveland got took in the deal. Brady is a bust.

IAMTUT

by iamtut on Mar 15, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

What in the hell is Mike Lombardi talking about? He gets paid to write this crap?

"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."

by jaws. on Mar 15, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just like the idiots who write for Yahoo.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 15, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

If that fails, the Browns will have to look at Colt McCoy or Dan LeFevour in the second or third rounds.

I think this is more likely then trading up, considering the cost.

by emily522 on Mar 15, 2010 3:48 PM EDT reply actions  

I do like that Clayton has already decided that we’re failures if we don’t move up to grab Claussen though.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 15, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I used to be okay with drafting Clausen, but I don’t really want him anymore. Bad feeling about him.

by emily522 on Mar 15, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Must be a Notre Dame thing…cause ya know, that worked out well in the past.

Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!

"Turner, at midcourt...inside it, at the buzzer, GOT IT!!!!"

by Andrew Tolliver on Mar 15, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clayton is a failure, how in the world does he find work.

by Grockcubs on Mar 15, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t stand that Clayton talks about the draft as though he knows exactly what will happen. I want to punch him in the face for every time he’s done this, been wrong, and not been held accountable.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 15, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clayton doesn’t bother me nearly as much as mel kiper.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 15, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kiper knows his shit. McShay not so much.

John clayton must have sold his soul to the devil to get inside contacts or something. I cant believe they still put that guy on tv. I cringe every time i see his face in HD.

"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."

by jaws. on Mar 15, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mel kiper annoys the shit out of me, and he’s no better than any other analyst, and certainly not as good as NFL personnel people. I’d like to see a record of people he claimed were sure-fire, can’t miss picks. I’d also like to see how many times he acted like a douche when telling someone a future bust was a future hall of famer.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 15, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think kiper has a better track record compared to McShay. I am pretty sure kiper has bradrord higher. plus Clausen isn’t in Mcshay’s top 30 prospects.

but they were both wrong (and I was right) on Jamarcus.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot of people are down on Clausen.

by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 15, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree and I am…I just don’t agree he is that bad.

I know that isn’t a great example but I find Kiper to sound more informative at times…but at times I do think McShay sounds a little more intelligent. Neither one is infallible though…

While most people like kiper, when I saw both talk about Clausen, Mcshay sounded more intelligent.

Kiper talked about how he talked to teammates and how they said they liked to work with clausen. however, mcshay was actually analyzing and breaking down film.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t want clausen as a cleveland brown. He might turn out to be a good NFL quarterback, but I don’t want him to be the face of the Browns. I don’t know why. I don’t think he is a Mangini guy.

"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."

by jaws. on Mar 15, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

No.

He’s a jackass.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 15, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yup, that’s what I was thinking the other day… definitely not a Mangini guy with that ego.

by emily522 on Mar 15, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t like him either.

I am just stating how McShay actually looked more intelligent than Kiper.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

nobody hits on every prediction. Kiper is one of the best at picking who will get drafted where. He is pretty good at his job. McShay is a hack.

"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."

by jaws. on Mar 15, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Kiper’s job isn’t to say who will get drafted where. part of his job is assessing players, and he’s not any better at that then anybody else. He thought Jamarcus Russel was going to be a pro-bowler, thought he was a can’t-miss pick. Plenty of casual fans could have told you Jamarcus had a high chance of being a bust.

that aside, my main problem with kiper is that he has such a high opinion of himself. I’ve seen him call people stupid for having a different (and usually smarter) opinion than he has. I think the guy is a colossal douche.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 15, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep. I knew russell would be a huge bust…granted, I loved BQ too and I don’t claim to be an expert, but I though russell as a bust seemed a no brainer.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even a blind squirrel gets a nut every now and then.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 15, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

while watching the video of jamarcus i came across this video for good humor. Fast Forward to last 4 seconds

by BornInThePound on Mar 16, 2010 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Too bad Braylon can’t do this.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I want to punch him in the face just b/c he annoys me period.

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 15, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

At least Kiper isn’t so sure of himself. He’s annoying, but he never snickers smugly at the thought that a prospect will still be available after the third pick like we should all know because it is common knowledge.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 16, 2010 6:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree 100%. I think that Kiper can be so sure of himself it makes me want to punch him.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure of himself is not the correct wording. I don’t know, all I hear coming out of Clayton’s mouth is opinion spoken as though it were fact, and as though I would be stupid to not have known because it was so obvious that everyone knows. Just irks me.

Don’t punch Kiper, you might hurt yourself on his hair.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 18, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can understand that. I’m not a fan of either to be honest, But I’ve seen Mel Kiper shout people down for daring to question his infallible draft knowledge.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 18, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe they think Tebow can surprise his critics and develop into a solid pro despite his unorthodox throwing style. Or perhaps they really like McCoy or LeFevour.

Oh, please let the second sentence be true rather than the first.

by emily522 on Mar 15, 2010 3:48 PM EDT reply actions  

More and more I’m rooting for the first one. I mean one of the most talented but raw players ever coming into the league paired up with arguably the greatest QB guru on the planet? Should make great TV.

"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."

by jaws. on Mar 15, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I hear you. We have good coaches, no matter what they do our schemes will be good. Daring to be different might mean big success.

"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."

by jaws. on Mar 15, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

It won’t mean big success in the NFL, which is part of why “college offenses” are more effective in college.

In the NFL, people know what you did five minutes after you did it. You might sneak up on someone one week (Dolphins vs. Pats), but you will have less success running things that are different just because they are different.

In college, talent disparity is huge, time to prepare for any given opponent is relatively nothing. If you run something exotic, the odds are a lot greater that you can overcome the talent disparity and win because the other team simply has not seen your stuff before.

In the NFL there are only 32 teams, and there is virtually limitless prep time. Teams are a lot more ready for one another week to week. There is a lot more familiarity not only because of a lack of incentive to be different (which does exist, I agree), but also because of the very nature of the two leagues.

I could write a lot more on this.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 16, 2010 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

but you will have less success running things that are different just because they are different.

over an extended period of time.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 16, 2010 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

I could write a lot more on this.

I’d love to read it if you get the urge and \ or have the time and energy. I’m fascinated lately with the relative monotony of NFL systems and why this is so….

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Maybe if we were a playoff team each year I’d say, “Hey why not. Let’s take a chance at him in the 4th.” But we’re not so I’ll say it again: NO TEBOW.

by emily522 on Mar 15, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I just read profootballweekly’s analysis of the top ten quarterbacks in this year’s draft, and they surprisingly didn’t have LeFevour among them. Has his draft stock fallen suddenly, or was it just an omission on their part?

by bbstirrd on Mar 15, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only thing I can see that has caused his stock to drop is not throwing at the combine, which I think was a poor decision

by mich_n_trum84 on Mar 15, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely poor. What do you have to lose by throwing, especially when all the top guys weren’t throwing?

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 16, 2010 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

well..this list is really dumb anyways…the app state guy that high???

Where is Jarrett Brown? Where is Tim Hiller? These guys are better than many guys on that list.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Go Brown…my fellow WVU alumni baby!!!

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 15, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

note to Peter King: Kiss isn’t in the rock hall because they were a completely unoriginal hair metal, arena rock band whose creativity ended with makeup. seriously, if your biggest contribution to rock and roll history is face makeup, you don’t belong in the hall.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 15, 2010 3:51 PM EDT reply actions  

whoa, seriously, KISS is legendary for their music not just the makeup

by BrutalMovement on Mar 15, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kiss blows.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 15, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

you obviously have no taste in good music, what do u like? That emo pop trash thats on MTV? Either way, as long as your a Browns Fan you got no true quams with me. Just can’t let nobody put down one of my favorite bands.

by BrutalMovement on Mar 15, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I was raised on classic rock, I listen to a little of everything. (almost, no emo or country) Rock, metal, blues, motown, rap(nothing newer than Bone Thugz), old school R&B, you name a genre and there just might be someone from it I listen to. If it makes you feel any better though, I did marry a KISS fan.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 15, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find it funny how people who don’t listen to your music assume that you listen to emo pop thrash on MTV.

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Mar 15, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am a classic rock fan and dislike Kiss a lot.

by Roger Dorn on Mar 15, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kiss belongs in the Rock Hall. Like it or not, Alive and Alive 2 made thousands of kids pick up a guitar. Is their music simplistic and juvenile? Yes of course, but Alive and Alive 2 inspired thousands of kids to pick up a guitar or bass.

If shit like Abba and the Bee Gees is in the rock hall Kiss sure as hell belongs there. Not taking away anything from them even though I don’t care for them but Kiss has had way more influence on Rock then thay have.

Just because you don’t like a band doesn’t mean they suck or haven’t had an influence.

I can look at the list of artists in the hall and list many I can’t stand (Paul McCartney solo, Lynard Skynard, Steely Dan, Dead, Springfield, ect..) but I can’t deny they belong.

And sorry but I’d take Kiss over Panic! at the disco, Falloutboy or Young Chingy or Jeezy or whatever the rap flavor of the day is. God help the poor kids of today. Nothing but garbage out there at least in the mainstream.

by mgtbfb on Mar 15, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

ABBA ≠ Shit

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 15, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

disagree.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s the grumpy old man in me coming out. I imagine I sound like my parents did when I brought home NWA, Iron Maiden and Alice in Chains

by mgtbfb on Mar 15, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Understandable. I hate rap.

by emily522 on Mar 15, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really liked quite a bit of it at one time. IMO, Hip Hop and RnB was incredible thru most of the 80’s and 90’s.

by mgtbfb on Mar 15, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look at it today, though. It’s awful.

by emily522 on Mar 15, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

False.

If you only look at what the three radio stations in America play, maybe.

And even that brand of hip hop has inspired a lot of highly intelligent critical debate in “fine art”.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 16, 2010 6:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, there’s some good rap out there if you know where to look.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Only up to the early 90’s though, otherwise I agree with this statement.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 15, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

there are occasionally exceptions, but it is a good general rule,

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dislike most rap b/c it is unoriginal and has no purpose. NWA was great and they were extremely talented.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most of NWA didn’t write their own lyrics and we can only speculate about the production.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Mar 15, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

what evidence do you have that they didn’t write it?

And the Producer was usually Dr. Dre…who was a member of the grou.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

MC Ren and Ice Cube wrote most of the early stuff and after Cube left the D.O.C. stepped in to his writing shoes.

Dre is notorious for using the production of others and putting his name on it.

Easy E was notorious for using ghostwriters.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Mar 15, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, they weren’t the only ones writing back then. Maybe later on they didn’t do 100% their own stuff but in the early days they did all of the work really.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Ren and Cube wrote everything. Ren and Cube were NWA by the way. The other 3, Yella, Dre and easy couldn’t write their way out of a kindergarten assessment.

Dre did most of his production during the NWA and Chronic days. After that he “collaborated,” with others. You can easily check the credits for that.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Mar 15, 2010 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

“were in NWA”

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Mar 15, 2010 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know about MC Ren and Cube. They didn’t write everything but did write a lot of it.

I disagree about Easy and Dre. they did write some and their stuff was good too.

I am not arguing about their later work, but their stuff I agree with. I think of NWA as ending in about 1989.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

After this I’ll stop because your memory is not as good as you think.

After 1989, NWA had released all of one album and appeared on this album on 3 songs.

On their first album Easy E got credit on 3 of the 13 songs, Dr. Dre none.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Mar 15, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

okay…

I am not saying Easy E and Dr Dre did a ton, but they did do a bit. Ren and Cube definitely did more, but Easy and Dre were not just standing there…

I don’t know why you seem to have this vendetta against them…I am not even disagreeing with you.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t get me started on the HoF, I refuse to call it the rock hall when they unduct groups such as ABBA, and book acts such as Britney Spears. Rock n Roll is the counterculture to such pop acts and calling it the Rock n Roll hall of fame is a mockery of what rock is.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 15, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

*induct

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 15, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, wrong.

Whatever roots Rock n Roll had in “counter” culture were quickly adopted into mainstream music and became a part of a giant moneymaking machine.

All of those “rebellious” songs are on car commercials. Philosophers question if resistance/rebellion/“counter culture” to pop music is even possible from within music.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 16, 2010 6:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Philosophers question if resistance/rebellion/"counter culture" to pop music is even possible from within music.

Sure, but philosophers question everything, so YMMV.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just because some people sold out doesn’t make the music any less part of the counter-culture, and on this one we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not going to sit here and tell you most of those bands belong in the rock hall, because they don’t. but just because other bands made it into the hall doesn’t mean others do.

KISS has had zero influence on rock. they didn’t do anything different than every single shitty pop-metal band that came before them. For me, you have to be important to get in the rock hall. If you want KISS in the hall then you have to let in anyone who sells a bunch of records, regardless of merit.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 15, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does image creation and persona building count as influence and creativity?

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 15, 2010 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t even care about influence, I care about good for my personal Hall. Kiss is not good.

by Roger Dorn on Mar 15, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Roger, you have me curious…what music do you listen to?

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 15, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

My favorite is classic rock – favorite bands Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, AC/DC. I also like R&B, soul from when it was good in the 60’s and 70’s – Temptations, Earth Wind and Fire. I like hard rock and grunge rock from the late 80’s and early 90’s – GNR, Nirvana. I like Van Morrison a lot. I like certain prog rock type bands like Styx and Supertramp. I like rap from the late 80s, but primarily 90s. I also really like classical music.

I dislike rap from the 00’s, soft rock, reggaton, punk, heavy metal (anything heavier than AC/DC is probably too heavy), and probably 85% of hair metal. I am sure I am forgetting something.

by Roger Dorn on Mar 15, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

It may be a little heavy for you but check out “Breaking Benjamin” with songs like “I will not bow” or “Shamans Harvest” with songs like “Dragonfly”. They are pretty good, they start off somewhat heavy, but have more of a classic rock feel afterwards. PS…I must admit, I play a lot of classical music from AOL Radio online while at work as well.

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 15, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

or maybe even Symphony X, Dream Theater, Liquid Tension Experiment, Rush…all of these are heavy but are not truly “metal” IMO. DT is, but they have a really classic feel to them at times. DT are like if Yes (or the who) met Metallica.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep…

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec, coolest Canadians ever, and probably the most talented musical trio ever.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 15, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cream.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 16, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rush is better hands down, and still together.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

DBN, hotbed of Rush fandom?

Yes, I’m a fan as well, although anything pre-1980 really only works for me as nostalgia any more….

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like Rush too but Let’s break it down.

Jack Bruce>Geddy Lee Slight Advantage: Cream

Eric Clapton>>>>Alex Lifeson Massive Advantage: Cream

Ginger Baker<<Neil Peart. Advantage: Rush

Geddy Lee was good but Jack Bruce was a bit better.

Lifeson is a good musician but Clapton was worlds better.

Neil Peart may be the best drummer in history (up for debate…I can’t decide so have a 3 way time btwn him, Moon, and Bonham)…Ginger baker however, is also one of the best drummers of all time. while he isn’t on the level of peart, he is on the next level. He is on the level with Ian Paice, Mike Portnoy. While Peart is on most lists as the best drummer of all time, Ginger baker is usually in the top 10.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can agree with most of that but give the first one to Rush, Geddy Lee outplayed the guy from Yes (Chris Wakeman?) for the title of fastest keyboardist on that show Bonzai.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah. because being a fast keyboardist makes you the best bassist right?

It is close but I have to go with bruce…like I said it is pretty close.

either way, there is no way you say lifeson is even close to the level that Clapton is.

And for all that I love about Peart, ginger baker is almost as good.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

No it just states the point that he is a very talented musician, that can play multiple instruments.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes…Just to show how actually bruce is more versatile I will give you a list of instruments played by both.

Lee: Bass, vocals, keyboards, guitar

Bruce: Vocals, bass, double bass, piano, harmonica, guitar, keyboards, cello

Now look whose versatile.

Bruce also wrote most of the songs when he was in cream. he was a brilliant songwriter and although lee wrote a lot for Rush, I have to give the edge here slightly to Bruce.

(fun fact, on the song Crossroads, bruce was said to have had the 2nd best live bass performance in a song in rock history).

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lee played the harmonica too did he not?

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t believe he did. maybe in one song…or two, but not at all to the extent that bruce did.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of great baselines, Roundabout by Yes has my favorite of all time.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh. I will totally agree on that. that is an amazing base line. Chris squire is amazing…

even though we are arguing, I still think that Zeppelin is better than either.

Jimmy Page=Clapton…maybe slight edge to clapton

John Paul Jones (bass)=Geddy Lee or Bruce. all of these guys are great and similarly talented…maybe Jones is the best by a bit.

John Bonham=Peart>Ginger Baker. After Peart as the best drummer of all time, I consider Bonham number 2.

Jimmy Page>>>>>>>>>>Jack Bruce or Lee Singing. No Explanation Needed. one of the best rock wailers in history.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

You will never get an argument out of me about Zeppelin being the best. My 5 favorite groups in no particular order are: The Doors, Led Zep, Rush, Black Sabbath, and Pink Floyd ( even though the Buzzard played them out during the fake “we’re changing formats in a month” thing in the mid to late 90’s).

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

yep…arguing was also a harsh word. I think we were having a fun debate…b/c with music everyghing is fun.

I will not disagree with you on your list. I probably replace The Doors with either Cream or the Who. BS is good but I am very partial to AC/DC.

Recently, I am in love with Floyd. That is all I listen to..

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t call it an argument either, usually at least one person is pissed off in an argument lol

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d trade Peart for Baker, but only if you throw in a second round pick.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

so peart and a 2nd for baker, or the other way around?

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

No disrespect to Ginger Baker at all, but If I’m giving up Peart for him, I’ve got to get something else as well.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is what I assumed you meant.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like Rush, but, no…not even close.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 16, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jack Bruce is highly underrated IMO.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 16, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

yep..and in some circles ginger baker. most people that truly know drums recognize him but he doesn’t show up on most user created top 10 lists…but those aren’t that reliable anyways…

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. Fond of some of the work he did in association with Bill Laswell in the early 90s.

It’s all Clapton’s fault, you know.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

that baker is underrated?

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, that Baker is underrated.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t understand it…the only possible scenario I see is that clapton is awesome and baker was in a band where clapton was sort of the bandleader.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Clapton soaked up all the spotlight.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Clapton is more talented than anyone in Rush.

by Roger Dorn on Mar 16, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Personal opinion, but I’ve always been mainly indifferent to Clapton. (Heresy!)

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also applies to Hendrix, though the rest of the Experience are so bad that they don’t even enter into the equation for best trio.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 16, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Out of the 4 “Main” sidemen Hendrix employed the bass players (Billy Cox and Noel Redding) added little but the drummers (Buddy Miles and Mitch Mitchell) were solid. Mitchell was pretty creative and I enjoyed Miles attack. I like a hard hitting drummer ala Bohnam.

by mgtbfb on Mar 16, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

probably the most talented musical trio ever

if you exclude the tens of thousands of jazz and sometimes classical artists who routinely play in the trio format. And have a very narrow definition of the word “talent.”

Not trying to bust your chops…just sayin’.

by drjeo on Mar 16, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah this is how i feel. Putting 3 great musicians together does not necessarily make a good band. Take DMB for example, all extremely talented musicians, but together they just sound like any other jam band.

I think there are plenty of trios of lesser musicians who were able to write and play better songs than rush and cream.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

John, Paul, George.

End of conversation.

fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com

by Ryan Kelsey on Mar 16, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Page, Jones, Bonham. (If we needed further evidence.)

by Roger Dorn on Mar 16, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Se I was speaking of a band that consists of three people, The Beatles and Led Zep were four man bands, by the way, everyone who has been lining up to tear my opinion apart, it is just that, my opinion.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

*see

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was counting bands with 3 instrument players, and tossing the vocalists. The Beatles had 4 instrumentalists, Zeppelin 3.

by Roger Dorn on Mar 16, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

See you kind of proved my point about The Beatles, and I admit I could have been a little more clear in the comment that started this whole shpeel, As far as Zep goes, best band ever, period. That being said, John Paul Jones didn’t have to worry about the vocals while he strummed away.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

there are very few bands that use the power trio format. there was cream and rush...

the police
CSN
ELP
Oysterhead
ZZ Top
Motorhead

The problem is there are not a ton of bands, let alone great bands with only 3 members.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

And of course, the immortal Blue Cheer (“Ain’t No Cure for the Summertime Blues”)

by drjeo on Mar 16, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about punk bands, blues trios, or other alternative bands?

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Props to the Beatles but if I can only listen to one band for the rest of my days its Led Zep.
Achillies Last Stand FTW

by mgtbfb on Mar 16, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

As someone who doesn’t even listen to classic rock on a weekly basis, it’s still gotta be the beatles

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of narrow definitions of the word talent, I love it when people tout jazz players as a breed because of their technical chops, as if that alone is the be all and end all of music. Sort of like hailing Jamarcus Russell because of his famous throwing from his knees party trick. (And you thought this would be off topic.)

Again, not trying to bust anyone chops, just saying. Horses for courses.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 16, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, technique is an important aspect of musicianship. If you don’t have the technique, you have to make compromises in your message. There are a lot of rock musicians with great chops, and also many who don’t have anything resembling outstanding technique. That’s less true in jazz, partly because it’s a highly technical medium, and partly because the audience tends to be much more sophisticated, and with a deeper (though not necessarily broader) base of knowledge. Contemporary jazz isn’t easy to listen to, and I say that as a practicing jazz musician myself. It can seem to be all about technique (and there’s a small segment of the market that does think this way), but for most jazzers the technique is a means of expression, and not the end in itself. Actually, it’s nothing like the Russell example: it’s his lack of technique which inhibits his performance, possibly combined with a lack of talent.

I made the “talent” comment, because I think the concept of talent is generally misunderstood. To me, talent is about a person’s native ability -their physical and genetic gift. Talent is too often confused with ability. Ability can be developed, but strictly speaking, talent can’t. I know there’s not universal agreement on this definition, but that was my thinking.

by drjeo on Mar 16, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

drjeo, there’s enough in your comment here to spin off into an entirely new thread – which would rightfully belong on another forum, alas.

I’m a jazz listener if a bit of a scattershot one. (I’m currently hooked on Byard Lancaster.) It does sometimes seem to me that the modern genre is a bit obsessed with ritual displays of cleverness (a la Russell and some workout warriors) over the achievement of musical goals, valuing technique über alles (and tiny audiences of fellow technicians over broader appeal). I think perhaps the ‘sophistication’ becomes enforced and generates a certain elitism. Not all tools need be employed for every task – sometimes a rusty hammer is the just and proper thing for the job. (Man, I could go on here about technical limitations and the impact they have on artists both good and bad, but I digress enough.)

All that said, I appreciate your perspective as a playing musician here. Well said!

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 17, 2010 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wish other forums would build on the SBN model. So much easier to read and interact (bar the subject line).

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Mar 17, 2010 6:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

rush always gets a rec.

by Dawg Nuts on Mar 16, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Dream Theater… HA!

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 15, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was with you til you dissed Metal haha.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 15, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh huh

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 16, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m just curious, but when you say “metal” what types of bands are you referring to?

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

and by that I mean are we talking Metallica or As I Lay Dying. (both are good imo)

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Metal is classified under soooo many different genres. The word "Metal" is obsolete.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 16, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Metal would be an umbrella term today, slightly like rap though I highly think there’s more types of metal. (don’t quote me, I don’t listen to new rap)

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Call me a Homer, but Mushroomhead is close to the top of my metal list, Iron Maiden being the pinnacle, I like Arc Enemy, Dethklok (yeah it’s a cartoon but they kick ass, Brendon Small is phenomenal), I consider Black Sabbath and Led Zep the pioneers of metal, Mudvayne, I like a lil hair metal like Motley Crue (but not Ballad HM like Poison), and Metallica is ok so long as it’s from Reload or earlier.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

arch*

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I respect that type of metal for what it is, and I like a lot of it, but for some reason its never been something I like more than a little bit. Personal taste I guess.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Deathclok?? Deathclok??
Your music opinion is dead to me.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I could say the same to you for hating on the Ramones. Also it’s Dethklok

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 17, 2010 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Funny cartoon, awesome music, what more could you ask from a 12 minute show?

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 17, 2010 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dethklok is a real band dude.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I know they did a tour for the Dethalbum.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 17, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

My drummer is huge on "Dethklok". We constantly rip on him and avoid riding in his car because he has control of the music. One day he threw in some GG Alan. That was it for me.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Haha GG Allen…gross.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 18, 2010 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

There are about a million guitar players that would disagree with you, me among them. Ace Frehley and Kiss inspired tons of artists, many of whom you probably listen to: Metallica, Pantera, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Alice in Chains, Smashing Pumpkins, ect…

by mgtbfb on Mar 16, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Entirely subjective and probably untrue.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 16, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe people like KISS and that partly inspired them to pick up a guitar. more likely people liked rock music in general so they picked up a guitar.

More to my point though, I meant Kiss didn’t add anything to the music. They didn’t advance rock and roll in any way other than encouraging costumes and makeup. Their music was completely unoriginal, and I consider originality a huge aspect of being considered a great band. Anybody who could play at a decent level could have written those songs, and hundreds of bands wrote songs just like them way before KISS got their start, but they didn’t have the image. That’s all KISS did better than anybody else, sell an image.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m also curious as to how you know those bands were inspired by KISS, especially when its been established that Kurt Cobain got into music when his brother started taking him to a bunch of punk shows. take this however you want, since its from wikipedia, but…

As a teenager living in Montesano, Cobain eventually found escape through the thriving Pacific Northwest punk scene, going to punk rock shows in Seattle

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m also curious as to how you know those bands were inspired by KISS

Well you could go to Kirk Hammett’s bio page.

Kirk, being inspired by Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, UFO, Aerosmith, KISS, and Steely Dan,

by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 16, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, there’s one, care to explain the others?

also, Its not surprising that someone in a metal band would be inspired by KISS.

I find it hard to believe that the Smashing Pumpkins shared a lot of musical similarities with KISS.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 17, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Its not surprising that someone in a metal band would be inspired by KISS.

Then why the-uproar over his comment?

by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 17, 2010 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would imagine because the rest of the list aren’t metal bands. Pantera, but everyone else, I would be hard pressed to label metal.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Mar 17, 2010 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I can see metallica and pantera being influenced by KISS, but none of the rest. (maybe pearl jam)

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 17, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

personally I prefer this :)

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 17, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/People/Sound%20Effect%20-%20Yodel.wav

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 17, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

this made me laugh

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 17, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I couldn’t resist…I don’t know enough about music to even begin to get into this conversation with you guys

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 17, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with this, it seems like all they did was take a Springstein sound, a Sabbath sound (and even saying Sabbath is overly favorable), and threw it in a blender with their sisters’ makeup and called it new.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Weezer. They are how i listened to kiss. Didn’t take but still got a taste.

They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best

About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback

by Villeslgr on Mar 17, 2010 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Weezer.

Amazing: Blue Album.
Great: Green Album, Pinkerton
Good:Maladroit, Raditude, Red Album
Meh: Make Believe

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m a little harder on them than that but i would tend to agree with the order. My one exception being I am among the few who liked Pinkerton as much as if not more than the blue album.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 17, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

When it was issued, it was considered one of the worst albums of all time, but people recognized their mistake and it’s now considered essentially second or third best. Nothing beats the Blue Album dude, I’m sorry. That’s almost universally accepted as the norm.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think for me the reason i like pinkerton so much is because it represents them doing what they wanted to do. every album since then they’ve been trying to recapture what they had on the blue album instead of doing what they felt like doing. I believe that if pinkerton wouldn’t have been so heavily criticized upon release we wouldn’t be faced with the washed-up boring weezer we have today.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 17, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed. It was definitely a confidence killer. And like 5 years later Rolling Stones goes “My bad!”

Yeah, too late.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

It makes me so sad to think of what might have been… sigh

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 17, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

totally agree….they regress like every album

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 17, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dusty springfield or buffalo??

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah. Cause Buffalo Springfield is awesome.

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Mar 16, 2010 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah…Not only did they have great songs but how can you say this lineup:

Neil Young
Steven Stills
Jim Messina

Can be bad at all. It was the launching pad for these 3 great artists’ careers. Without Buffalo springfield there might not be CSN&Y.

Dusty Springfield is also one of the best female singers in rock history. she was the first true white sould singer, had a great voice, and made some amazing songs (such as “son of a preacher man”)…

but now that i think about it, he was talking about artists he respected but didn’t enjoy.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think CS&N were better off without Y not a fan of Young myself.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I liked them with Young…but that’s just me. my favorite song of theirs was Ohio and that was not only with young, but written by him.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Massive fan of both. When they were together though.. a bit off.

I think I say this because I prefer the acoustic side of CSN.

Probably the only Cleveland Browns fan in all of Sydney, NSW.

by skipkirk on Mar 16, 2010 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is their music simplistic and juvenile? Yes of course, because that is the nature of popular music of any genre in general

FIxed.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 16, 2010 6:11 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I wasn’t a huge KISS fan until I got free tickets to their concert.

Freaking unreal.

by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 15, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes. they are great live…

by the logic they shouldn’t get in b/c they are simplistic, neither shoud the ramones b/c they used simplistic chords but they impacted music.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t say simplistic, I said unoriginal. The Ramones revolutionized rock and roll and essentially invented modern punk music. KISS piggybacked on every single arena rock group that came before them, with the difference being they wore face paint.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 15, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree that Kiss was unoriginal. They were not extremely original and they were fairly simplistic, but they were not unoriginal to the hyperbole that you describe.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

the only original thing about them was their image, and even that may be giving too much credit.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 15, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

They were on an episode of “Extreme Home Makeover” not long ago. the people they were helping were musicians that were struggling to help the community and school with teaching music and giving supplies. Kiss donated quite a bit for them. I don’t care for their music, but showed they are good guys

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 15, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate that show.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 15, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

somehow that seems appropriate for you…@sshole….j/k

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 15, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

The show is an awesome premise, I just don’t like Ty (or Chad for that matter) Pennington.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

they are decent, interesting people. they are decent, uninteresting musicians.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 15, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

they are great guys.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

btw, I love the new signature.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 15, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I too like that sig

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kimble’s?

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

yep

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

oh…I thought you said I don’t like it…I was wondering why…

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

thanks! I am just now exploring all the different options for my profile. I looked for most of the day yesterday, trying to find a good one that I really liked. Found this one early, but kept looking. Eventually came back to it as my favorite.

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 16, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

WHAT arena Rock bands that came before them? If they ripped off anyone it was the New York Dolls, a band that I’d venture to say 99% of America has never heard of.

by mgtbfb on Mar 16, 2010 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Misfits had more to do with today’s punk rock than the Ramones ever did. My guitar player is obsessed with The Misfits (yes, I’m in a band). I have heard this argument for over 15 years. The Misfits always come out on top. I can’t stand either of the two really.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 16, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Danzig is ok, plus he kinda sounds like Jim Morrison sometimes, I think he would have been a better frontman for the 21st century Doors than that guy from the Cult.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 16, 2010 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

TILL YOUR BLEEDING!

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 16, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

you’re right, the misfits are more influential on todays punk than the ramones. I should have said they invented punk, not modern punk. They are credited with starting the “wall of sound” but sounded almost nothing like many punk bands of today.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

whats the name of your band btw? ever play any shows in cleveland? Punk shows are the most fun shows in my opinion, possibly tied with ska. Of course when I say ska I generally mean ska-punk, so i guess its still punk.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 16, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

The band name is "From Nowhere". We’re not punk. We’re not classified. We’ve had tons of people ask us what we call it. We call it "Nowhere". Even though we take it serious, we never really tried to take it to that next level. We all have families and jobs, and real life is more important. We do have hookups in the industry (Capitol to name one), but the risk of touring just to prove ourselves isn’t worth it. There are millions of bands out there, and only a few each year make it big.
We are here to create the type of music that we ourselves would listen to. WE are the rusty screwdriver into the crying diaries of that “right now…but not tomorrow music” that permeates the airwaves.

No, we’ve never played Ohio. We’re based in the Los Angeles/San Diego area.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 16, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you are looking for a decent local act in Cleveland check out 30 Seconds Out, or 3SO for short, they are awesome, wouldn’t know what to classify them under though.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 17, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

There are a lot of local bands i like, but most are part of the indie/twee/hipster scene, so i’m always open to new stuff.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 17, 2010 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

but Punk in general wouldn’t be what it was today without the Ramones. the ramones were the pioneers of Punk

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 16, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

How old are you?

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 16, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who told you that? VH1??

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 16, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am not saying it in a good or bad way. The ramones were one of the first good early punk bands.

However, it is funny you say VH1…I have found that the ramones were so consistently underrated and underappreciated in their time as a band, that now they are a bit overappreciated and bands like the misfits don’t get their due.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 17, 2010 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, they’re nothing.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

??

you just don’t like the ramones?

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 17, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I understand what they are.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes. I understand too. I am not even a huge fan of the ramones. there are punk bands I like better. I respect them though.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 17, 2010 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

they were the pioneers, but the misfits have a lot more in common with modern punk bands than the ramones do.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 17, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree. I like both. I never said that the ramones had much in common with modern punk. I said exactly what you said. they are pioneers.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 17, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know a whole scene that disagrees with you.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 18, 2010 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah as soon as I typed that I thought “I’ll bet there are plenty of bands out there that still sound like the ramones.” But I still think most punk bands today are more misfits than ramones.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Mar 18, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, a lot of the bands I know who are in the Ramones’ vein are really obscure.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Mar 19, 2010 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m ending this right now. "Sade" is the best ever. No one compares.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

That explains it all.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 17, 2010 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you break it down, music is like politics. It shouldnt be allowed on here.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought we’d actually done fairly well having a civil conversation about such things here, at least until “Band X is nothing” and “Your opinion is dead to me” type comments started arriving….

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 17, 2010 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I take music very seriously. Politics as well. I write music and have a strong opinion about it.
It shouldn’t be allowed on here to save you guys from me. That was my point.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just saying man, but just because you’re in a garage band, doesn’t mean you have the correct opinion to music.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

There are correct opinions on music? When was that decided? Why didn’t anybody tell me sooner?

by drjeo on Mar 17, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

This conversation is hilarious. A fight to the death among the clueless.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 17, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Does not every post you type sound like you’re better/smarter than the person you’re replying to? Keep doing your thing, colontrack. Attacking everyone doesn’t get you banned.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 18, 2010 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ah, but golanbatrac usually is better and smarter, so it’s forgiven.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 18, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I am starting to think that golanbatrac is actually glenn beck…because according to beck, he is better and smarter than all of us…

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Mar 18, 2010 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ah, but golanbatrac usually is better and smarter, so it’s forgiven.

I recommend this post.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 18, 2010 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Does not every post you type sound like you’re better/smarter than the person you’re replying to?

Do I detect an inferiority complex?

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 18, 2010 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

nope

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 18, 2010 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

You sure about that?

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Mar 18, 2010 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am noticing some cognitive dissonance Golan.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 18, 2010 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

had to REC for “colontrac”…sorry Golan but that is funny!

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Mar 18, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Haha, I didn’t say there were, but that’s what it seems he’s trying to get at. That because he plays the triangle in a polka band in his grandmother’s garage doesn’t mean he knows anything about music.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

….because he plays the triangle in a polka band in his grandmother’s garage doesn’t mean he knows anything about music.

Warning: Button Pushing Ahead!

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 17, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

warning: you just replied to button pushing.

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 17, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Warning: I Wasn’t the Target

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 17, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

whoops

I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.

by North Coast Flea on Mar 17, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh. No worries. As it turns out SB and BY are fast friends and are apparently arranging to conduct a skin triangle duet in Hitler’s grandmother’s basement, or some such thing.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Mar 18, 2010 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gross.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 18, 2010 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

skin triangle? that’s pretty nasty. HAHA

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 18, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s ok, I like SB.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like you too. Bromance.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

is there an online internet hotel where you two can get a room?

by Dawg Nuts on Mar 18, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Facts and opinions are different. Opinions are meant to be argued.
If you can’t tell the difference, then I’m sorry.

And yes, I play the triangle in my grandmother’s garage. I guess it’s better than you playing the skin flute in your’s.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh no, I don’t play it personally, I’m the conductor my friend.

And of course opinions can be argued, I don’t know why you need to be sorry if I couldn’t understand the difference but whatever. But there’s a point where you become egocentric and take your opinion as fact.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s because it’s MY opinion.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could tell you Hitler’s opinion if you’d like…

By the way, this is a joke. We’re getting a little far.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s all good.

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

You stand there with a stick while people play the skin flute?

If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.

by Brownie's Year on Mar 17, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well… not people.

More like person.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Mar 17, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

We play shows around SoCal. Hardly a garage band.