Around the Pound (3/18): Holmgren on Tebow, Anderson to Arizona
by Chris Pokorny on Mar 18, 2010 12:23 PM EDT
in General News
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PrintIn today's edition of Around the Pound, we intentionally force many Browns fans to gouge their eyes out with the photograph of Tim Tebow and Mike Holmgren above, among other things including the new home of quarterback Derek Anderson.
Tim Tebow's Pro Day Draws Mike Holmgren
Remember how the Cleveland Browns acquired an extra third-round draft pick, and that we don't have a young quarterback (excluding Brett Ratliff) on our roster? That could be where Florida QB Tim Tebow enters the picture. Has a college player ever been so hyped/discussed with the intention of them not being drafted in the first two rounds?
Both Mike Holmgren and Eric Mangini were in attendance for Tebow's Pro Day Wednesday, and Holmgren came away impressed after seeing Tebow's new throwing motion.
"Clearly, he's a special young man," Holmgren told the Associated Press. "You can tell he's trying to make adjustments to his motion. That seems to be what people are fired up about, and he's working very hard to do that, and it showed today. I thought he had a pretty good workout."
"Those of us that know the position a little bit and watch the position and have coached the position, you saw it," Holmgren said. "You saw he's worked hard on changing some of his technique, and I root for him. He's a wonderful young man. I pull for guys like that, and he's going to make some team very happy."
There are a collection of links in this Tebow FanShot, where several videos are available so you can take a look at Tebow yourself.
Derek Anderson Signs with Arizona
If there was one team right now in the NFL where I think Derek Anderson could re-live his 2007 Pro Bowl season, it would be with the Arizona Cardinals. The Cardinals signed Anderson to a two-year deal. At a minimum, Anderson will make $7.25 million over those two years, with $3.25 million guaranteed. If he becomes the starter and earns incentives, his contract could max out to $18.25 million. This is the type of structured contract I would've rather seen Delhomme receive, but perhaps we felt we'd lose him to New Orleans then.
You can check out the reaction from the fans of our Cardinals affiliate here. Here's one of their comments:
You can't judge based on one game. That’s like saying Warner wasn’t worthy because he threw too many INT’s in one game. Anderson had some outstanding games in 2007 that could easily counter a 2-fo-17 performance. You’ve got to judge on the whole and not one or two individual games.
How little they know about Mr. Derek Anderson ;) In the end though, I do anticipate Anderson becoming Arizona's starter either at the beginning or the middle of the season. It just always seems to happen.
Terry Pluto: on Delhomme's Presser and Tebow
As always, check out Pluto's column above for more of his thoughts. I selected my two favorite ones and have highlighted them below:
7. I believe the Browns will be a run-first team. That is Mangini's style for a team that plays in bad weather on grass. He'll use a multiple-back system with Jerome Harrison, Lawrence Vickers and newcomer Peyton Hillis. The Browns really like Hillis, who averaged 4.9 yards per carry in Denver. They also are working on packages with Joshua Cribbs and Seneca Wallace in the Wildcat formations. While Holmgren said he didn't want Delhomme to "just manage the game," they also won't want the veteran throwing the ball 35 times an outing, either.
8. Don't know if the Browns will draft Tim Tebow, but I wouldn't be shocked if they took him in the third round when the team has multiple picks. It's easy to imagine Holmgren and Mangini being impressed by Tebow's character and work ethic, along with his history of success. Holmgren drafted Wallace, who was considered far more of an athlete at Iowa State than a polished quarterback. But Holmgren liked Wallace's character.
Haden's New Forty Time
The new 40-time for Joe Haden, according to his Pro Day? 4.39. That erases the concern of speed, but has his contention of being drafted by Cleveland taken a turn with the team's recent moves at quarterback?
Around the AFC North
- Baltimore Beatdown: Why the Ravens are Going to Win Super Bowl 45
- Behind the Steel Curtain: Foote and Randel El Ready to Ignite Steelers
- Cincy Jungle: Should the Bengals be Interested in Shawn Andrews?
Off-Beat Notes
- I never mind LOST episodes, but the ending to Recon was kind of anticlimatic, and it was one of those rare times where I felt, "okay, it was kind of unnecessary to play the dramatic music for a not-so-surprising statement." Next week's episode is one that we've been waiting several years for, and I anticipate it delivering big-time. I imagine the episode will stray from the flashsideways theme for at least a week.
- Shoot, I forgot the Celebrity Apprentice debuted last Sunday. I'm going to have to watch it online to catch up before next week's episode.
- Flashforward returns tonight with a two-hour episode. The show is lightyears away from LOST, but between this show and Fringe, I need something ready to fulfill my television sci-fi gap that'll be missing next year.
- Be sure to follow us on Twitter at http://twitter.com/dawgsbynature!
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I hope we draft Tebow, just for the lulz. We’re well on our way to Japanese MMA level freak show status.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Think of all the Jesus jokes…
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Mar 18, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The organization could save money on the post-game spread by setting out two fish and five loaves of bread.
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Mar 18, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Excellent.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Mar 18, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I just hope he doesn’t get too close to the water jugs on the sideline, or the whole team will be drunk by halftime.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 18, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I hope it rains on every single Browns game because he can walk on top of water. Who needs cleats?!
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Mar 18, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Total bromance.
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Mar 19, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
If Tebow is 6’-3", what does that make Holmgren? For some reason, I thought Holmgren was much shorter than he actually is.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Holmgren is huge dude. Size of an offensive tackle. 6’5 280 or 300.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Joe Thomas better watch his back.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Mar 19, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
blaspheme
I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.
by North Coast Flea on Mar 19, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Thomas has the hearing of a dog and the eyesight of an owl. He’ll be fine.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Mar 19, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Im not a fan of seeing Holmgren in the same picture with Tebow.In fact,made me really uncomfortable.Ive never been a Tebow fan,
this
I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.
by North Coast Flea on Mar 18, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Tebow too. For me, since we’re probably not getting Bradford I would like to pick up Tebow with our first third rounder.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 19, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Getting a new Jersey this year. Only decision is between Berry or Tebow.
Please for the love of God I hope I never see the brown pants again, ever.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
You know there is a really good chance that we draft neither one of those players right?
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 18, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Ugh. Shut up.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Mar 18, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I liked the brown pants. I hated seeing those all white uniforms all the time (it seems like).
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 19, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I hate the brown pants, but I also hate the white shirts at home. No white Jersey’s at home ever.
This is football, you wear your colors at home, especially if you are a cold weather team. If we want alternate pants, bring the orange pants back like the Kardiac Kids era.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Dude, brown pants rock. They’re practical AND it’s easy to make some at home too.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Brown jerseys + orange pants = awesome, I like the orange jerseys too.
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Mar 20, 2010 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeck, no thanks. Keep the orange on the hats, please!
….and maybe spray some on Rothlisberger’s back, preferably in the shape of a target. Can someone photoshop that for us?
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you know why armies used brown pants right?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
So you wouldn’t see it when they shit themselves duh.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Mar 20, 2010 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
exactly…No wonder it would be the browns to think of that idea…
Except that when Joe Thomas plays, the Defense needs to wear brown pants too…
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Yeah but the lack of talent around Thomas negates some of the terror factor.
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Mar 20, 2010 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I can’t believe how optimistic cardinals fans are about this move. everybody over there is saying things like “when he had weapons he was great!” completely ignoring that all those same “weapons” were back for 2008 and they sucked.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
And he wasn’t even that great when he had weapons.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
yeah, his 29 TDs in 2007 stick out, but when you compare that to his 19 picks and the rest of his very average numbers, his 2007 wasn’t even that good.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 18, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I think those TDs were more associated with our OC suprising people that year. It sure didn’t work in ’08
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
thats what i would tend to think as well, but i don’t know how i’d go about proving it.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 18, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I love the fact that he destroyed some of the worst passing defenses in the league, but if you take away those game, he was pretty much pedestrian.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
by bross09 on Mar 18, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This. DA had a great year in 2007. He certainly made some big mistakes (Bengals game), but at the end of the season, it looked like we had our guy. I can see why Cardinals fans are excited. Yes, he had the same guys in 2008, but one of them decided he no longer had to catch the passes thrown to him. If I had to predict, I see DA having some great games for the Cards after Leinart inevitably gets pulled, but then I see DA flaming out slowly and the Cards are stuck in the same QB controversy hell that we were in for 2 years.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Mar 18, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
look it up.
Look at the games where he threw for over 100 passer rating. all of them were against teams that ranked in the bottom 5-7 in just about all categories at defending the pass…even QB rating.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
like i said in a different thread though, you can’t take away his best starts and say “look how bad he really is.” if you do that you have to take out his worst starts as well.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 18, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
yes.
you cannot truly take out his good starts, but you DO have to take them with a grain of salt when he had 4 starts and 3 teams were 29th or below in opponent QB passer rating.
and if you look at his body of work in 2007, it was solid, but nothing great. the only reason he even was selected is b/c there are always QBs who decide not to play. He was eventually elected to the pro bowl, but he was the 4th QB.
people tout the pro bowl like he is some sort of savior but do people do the same with kerry collins? collins in ’08 and ’09 in a way mirrors what DA was like in ’07 and ’08. a replacement guy that made the pro bowl as a reserve. sucked the next year and was benched.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I am sure you are right on the stats. But we haven’t had a QB who played so well against those bad teams ever (post-99) except for 2007 DA. Playing real good against bad teams is where you start. And if you just look at 2007 DA, you see a pretty good QB who has a lot of potential. When you look at 2009 DA, you don’t see much. 2008 DA? at least you still see a QB.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Mar 18, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
I guess you can credit him for beating up on bad teams, but the guy did that in like 3 games, the rest of the year he wasn’t good. against competent defense he struggled….plus against similarly bad defenses he struggled the next year. I because of past and future performances, we should take those starts with a grain of salt. I am not completely dismissing them, but saying they may be a little misleading.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I don’t see Leinhart getting pulled at all. I think he’s the full time starter for the whole season.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 19, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Haven’t you heard, we don’t deserve a winner?
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 18, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
We all wished Quinn the best in Denver, unless he’s playing us.
I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.
by North Coast Flea on Mar 18, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not about that. Holgrem says it right we he implies that he’s not sure whether Quinn sucks or not, but that he wasn’t comfortable with the risk. Here, it’s plenty of people (not everyone) falling all over themselves to say how clearly crappy each of our former players are, and to downgrade any accomplishments they did have. It’s not accurate, and it’s petty.
OK well how about Wimbley? No one here said he sucked, just that he never lived up to his potential. Brodney Pool, no one slammed on him either.
I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.
by North Coast Flea on Mar 18, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup. And even K2 — there are plenty of people who are not fond of him, but I haven’t read anywhere on here that he was/is not an excellent pass-catching Tight End.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Mar 19, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That may be, but it didn’t start once they became former players. DA’s accomplishments were downgraded while he was here and Quinn was doubted while he was here. I think that prevents it from being petty. It’s not like everyone was high on these guys and then started crapping on them after they left.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I seem to remember being really PO’d at DA one day for a performance vs Arizona. Could be off though.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
that was the game that inspired the change to the “WR getting forced out” rule. KW made a great catch, was forced out, and we got boned.
oh yeah i remember that. They reviewed the play and it was obviously a force out but you can’t review forceouts so they had to rule in favor of the Cards. bye bye forcout rule.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
How could you forget that. I spent about 20 minutes yelling at the tv and the rest of the week bitching about it.
One picture is worth 128K words.
Just used to heartbreak i guess. Its insignificant compared to watching Jose Mesa blow game 7
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
I hope to never be that used to heart break. I don’t watch much baseball so I can’t say I know who Jose Mesa is. I’ve been a Browns fan since ’01 though, so I have been dissapointed almost every season by them. I never even got to see them in their hay day.
One picture is worth 128K words.
Jose Mesa was a douche, and he threatened to kill my fave guy on the team (after Sandy Alomar jr that is) Omar Vizquel.
I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.
by North Coast Flea on Mar 19, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I can’t say I know who Jose Mesa is
thank your lucky stars for this.
by Dawg Nuts on Mar 19, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Chris – “gouge there eyes out”? wow harsh. you are assuming that we wouldnt want Tebow. Why do we think that we know more about what Tim Tebow’s capabilities are than MIke Holmgren? I trust Mike Holmgren more than anyone we have had in our organization, ever. Tebow at the top of round 3 sounds like a damn good pick to me. You think LeFevour or Pike are better? For what reason? They all played in the same type of offense in college.
Yeah I agree. Being a guy who has always respected Tebow’s game I don’t see why he can’t succeed. His footwork needs reps to improve but having a goofy throwing motion does not necessarily mean a QB can’t have success in the NFL.
I think depending on who is there for pick #38 Tebow is a real possibility. If one of those good CBs is there watch out for the Browns to package a couple of lower picks and get another second round pick. If they come away with Berry, a QB and a McCourty or Kareem Jackson in the first two rounds, the rest of the draft is gravy. (especially if they keep that early 3rd pick and get a nice value) This seems like a great way to go, just have to find the team that is willing to sell its 2nd round pick for a couple of late thirds and a pick next year.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Yeah I agree. Being a guy who has always respected Tebow’s game I don’t see why he can’t succeed. His footwork needs reps to improve but having a goofy throwing motion does not necessarily mean a QB can’t have success in the NFL.
The reason Tebow is such a “maybe” is because he needs to be totally rebuilt. It isn’t just his footwork, it goes all the way from him being able to take a snap under center. Add in his throwing motion, footwork and ability to read defenses, you finally realize what a task this is.
Being a QB in this league is hard enough without learning everything over. He has made some small strides already, but bad habits die hard and I am willing to bet that if he threw on pads on was being chased by Terrell Suggs, he would fall back into the slow wind-up motion.
That isn’t saying that Tebow can’t or won’t be successful, it’s just that it is a long hard road ahead and his chances at being successful are going to be small.
I think depending on who is there for pick #38 Tebow is a real possibility.
It damn well not better be.
The first two rounds are for players that can help right away. You do not draft projects in the first and second rounds. Tebow is the definition of a project right now. There will be better players that are more equipped for the NFL game available at 38.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 18, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Tebow can help right away
His freshman year; at the end of spring ball; his “team” for the blue/orange game chose him to be the anchor for the tug-o-war. The seniors chose HIM. Tebow is a stud. He brings so much energy, the entire team will step up. I agree that he shouldn’t be taking snaps for a few years, but Tebow will fire up the team. Maybe not the same as in Gainesville, but his work ethic and drive to succeed would be a positive for ANY team. The Browns would be lucky to get Tebow.
by dawggonehawaiian on Mar 19, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
yep. He is a WINNER. and because he was a winner in college, he doesn’t have to play and he makes our team better. He just WINS.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
by bross09 on Mar 19, 2010 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So he can help us in a game of tug of war?
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 19, 2010 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I can’t remember a good natured athlete that has been so loved-to-be-hated ever
by dawggonehawaiian on Mar 19, 2010 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I am not saying anything about that.
Your reasons why he will make the Browns better are ridiculous. You really think Shaun Rogers is going to play harder because Tebow is a rah-rah guy?
By the way, Tuba Rubin has to be the first pick in a Browns tug of war.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 19, 2010 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions
How can you lose tug of war with Tuba Rubin on your team. He could drag down another team just by himself.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Thank Tebow they don’t
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 19, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
If Joe Thomas went back in time, met himself and challenged himself to a game of Tug of War, Joe Thomas would win. Period.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
and joe thomas from the past would look exactly the same; he was, and always shall be, as he is now. because father time fears joe thomas.
by Dawg Nuts on Mar 20, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
there are only three absolutes in life: death, taxes, and eventually getting pancaked by joe thomas; except for joe thomas, who will never experience any of these things.
by Dawg Nuts on Mar 20, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Not true. Joe Thomas is so fast he can run around the world and pancake himself!
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
i stand corrected. thank you, and my sincerest apologies to joe thomas.
by Dawg Nuts on Mar 20, 2010 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Joe Thomas doesn’t accept apologies. He just delays how long it takes him to pancake you.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
wow…every so often we should have a joe thomas fanshot like this. these things make my day.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
you’ve just insulted joe thomas by implying that he’s only deserving of a fanshot.
by Dawg Nuts on Mar 20, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
In Soviet Russia, Joe Thomas fanshoots YOU!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
ehhh…
Joe thomas jokes and Smirnov jokes are funny…but together they just don’t work as well…
Not bad, just not the sum of its parts
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Joe Thomas doesn’t have to study his scouting reports. He just stares at them until he gets the information he wants.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
When it comes to Thomas, you’re never safe.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Mar 20, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
unless he wants you to be, in which case you’ll never be touched.
by Dawg Nuts on Mar 20, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Joe Thomas’s work as a body guard inspired M C Hammer’s “Can’t Touch This”.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nobody stands, even corrected, when Joe Thomas deals with them. You can only lay corrected.
by Matt Y. on Mar 20, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Am I the only person who wants to see this movie?
Craig Robinson is hilarious.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 20, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
It might be funny. Rated R comedies usualy are.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Mar 20, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
its got potential to be good, but i also feel like its got the potential to be one tired out slapstick joke after another. to be honest i haven’t looked past the previews.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 20, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t this also known as the apocalypse?
by Chief WaDrew on Mar 21, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Its not that Tebow can’t succeed in the NFL, its that he has a lot of obstacles to overcome in order to do so. He has a much lower chance of turning in to an all pro than the first round guys. Its not just the throwing motion. His accuracy is OK, but not great. He won’t be able to run over guys the way he did in college, so he will be a less viable running threat—and make no mistake this was a huge part of his success in college. You have to wonder how quickly he can go through progressions if you are a GM, and how much he knows about defenses.
Obviously, any one of those things can be overcome by a QB. Stacking them on top of each other, and that’s why he shouldn’t be drafted in the first.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Mar 19, 2010 4:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whether we get Tebow or not, I’d really like to see the Browns get out in the forefront of offensive schemes. using your wildcat back to make run reads and actually veer people. The real success of the spread option at the college level came from eliminating that 11vs10 advantage the defense normally has in the running game. Holmgren is creative offensively, lets hope he goes all Andy Reid / Jon Grueden and embraces the unorthodox even more fully. I’d like to see the organization do something dramatic to turn around this team.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
I’d like to see the organization do something dramatic to turn around this team.
I’d like to see the organization do something smart.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 19, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
For this franchise, that would be dramatic.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 19, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
We already have Cribbs, we can already run all of that stuff if we think it will work.
It won’t do what it did in college (turn bad programs into dangerous offenses), and if players and coaches don’t know how to stop the triple option, the zone read, etc. by now, they should all be fired.
Even college teams are prepared to stop those offenses now. Look at what OSU did to Oregon. Hell, if I wrote about it on this blog, it probably isn’t going to sneak up on any opposing DCs in the league.
Doesn’t mean they aren’t sound schemes that can’t work for us, just that we don’t need Tebow to run them and we probably won’t surprise anyone if/when we do.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Mar 19, 2010 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I agree, but like I said I’d really like to see us do something different. It would make for interesting football to watch, and could really be effective for us. Plus it could generate some national buzz for a team that really hasn’t had much good said about it in the last few years. Not to mention like you said we have some personnel who could execute. It might not be much of a surprise but it doesn’t need to be, it is just sound math. Playing 11 vs 11 is better than 11 vs 10.
Don’t get me wrong I want the Browns to have success any way possible but I think the NFL is right on the edge of a move to a much greater variety of offensive sets.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
you seem to be way too interested in gimmicks and “new age cures.” what’s wrong with just drafting the best players and winning games?
The problem is that it’s the Browns we’re talking about, remember?
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t care about buzz. I care about wins.
You never play 11 vs 10, even when you are talking about an immobile QB. All you need to do as an offense is keep the defense honest, and that has been done by immobile QBs for a very long time in the NFL.
I highly doubt the NFL is on the edge of a move to a much greater variety of offensive sets.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
yeah, i’m getting more and more confused by this. the key, as you’ve mentioned before, is that teams figure out gimmicks pretty quickly. they may still produce yardage, but not when an entire offense is centered around them. many things are the same in football now as they were 10, 20, 30 years ago. i’d be tickled pink with us doing those old things effectively.
The things that work and aren’t gimmicks are sound football schemes, and people use them all the time. There are also plenty of reasons why some “college” offenses stay in college.
Offenses win in the NFL by utilizing lots and lots of minute changes that have a huge impact on matchups and small-area numbers/alignment advantages. Can you make those small changes with a running QB? Absolutely. But it really doesn’t give your team an advantage unless you have superior personnel of the type necessary to run that stuff (Michael Vick, several really good, durable RBs of different sizes/speeds, etc.) In the same way, it wouldn’t make sense for us to run a lot of spread offense because our pass catchers are near the bottom of the league and our QBs are questionable at best.
If we can be good at some really “exotic” plays/packages, it could give us a legit advantage in one or two games. After that, people would be familiar with it. But why let the cat out of the bag to go from 5-11 to 7-9? If we really have something that good up our sleeves, I’d like to see us save it for a run into the playoffs or a run in the playoffs.
We need to be able to play good football—any kind of football—before we think about surprising people with something new (a la the wildcat), IMO. If the things we can be good at just happen to be “college”, fine. But I don’t see that being the case.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
It was a statement meant only to reflect the many times I’ve seen the, “oh god no,” type of comments regarding Tebow on here.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Mar 18, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I trust Mike Holmgren more than anyone we have had in our organization, ever.
Holmgren is good, but he is no Paul Brown.
Chris – "gouge there eyes out"? wow harsh. you are assuming that we wouldnt want Tebow.
The majority of fans on this site do not want Tebow. If you think differently, that’s cool but you are in the minority. So Chris would be correct in his assumption that Browns fans don’t want Tim Tebow.
Why do we think that we know more about what Tim Tebow’s capabilities are than MIke Holmgren?
Who, pray tell, has said that they do? In fact, most of the people on this blog have said that they fully trust in Holmgren.
Tebow at the top of round 3 sounds like a damn good pick
This I fully agree with. Only problem is that I really doubt that Tebow will still be on the board at that point.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 18, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t fully trust Homlmemgmem…to tell the truth about his opinion on draft prospects this time of year.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I have a much higher opinion of Mangini’s and Heckerts ability to evaluate players (outside of QB).
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Mar 19, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Even if Holmgren makes good evaluations, do we really think he is giving away his board right now?
So far, I believe Holmgren likes about 12 people and thinks they are all “special”. The same 12 that are at/near the top of everyone else’s draft boards.
I definitely trust the others more when evaluating defense. Holmgren probably knows his OL pretty well, and RBs.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
couldn’t agree more. Don’t believe anything Holmgren says. I really really doubt he has any real interest in acquiring bradford. He just can’t let every other team know what players he wants the most ahead of time. I really like the possibilities of this front office. We have some really good minds in there and specialists on both sides of the ball.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
You think LeFevour or Pike are better? For what reason? They all played in the same type of offense in college.
No. They played in very different versions of the spread. Florida spreads to run and get their smallish WR/RBs the ball in space. Cincy (when Pike was the QB) spread the field and had a lot of vertical routes. When I saw LeFevour, he was spreading the field and throwing a lot of short routes.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yeah I agree with this. Florida’s offense is really not as unorthodox as most spread teams. They are a run first offense who likes to beat you with playaction. They employ a lot of west coast inspired route groupings. Some of their bread and butter plays (inside zone, outside zone, counter trey, gut trap) are just exotic permutations of plays that can be found in virtually every NFL playbook. They even run pretty standard pass protection stuff, nothing like Texas Tech.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Dear Visiting Cardinals fan,
DA is not good. Trust us.
by Roger Dorn on Mar 18, 2010 3:42 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Yeah I keep thinking….
1. Lost job to BRADY QUINN. Brady-freakin’ Quinn
2. Released by the Browns. The BROWNS.
3. Replaced by Seneca Wallace and Jake Delomme.
Need we say more?
by johnnyphoenix on Mar 18, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Dear Visiting Broncos fan,
BQ is not good. Trust us.
Go Browns 09!!!
by deemac3248 on Mar 18, 2010 4:00 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
1. Lost job to DEREK ANDERSON. Derek-freakin’ Anderson.
2. Traded for peanuts by the Browns. The BROWNS.
3. Replaced by Seneca Wallace and Jake Delomme.
Need we say more?
by johnnyphoenix on Mar 18, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Dear Visiting Browns Executives,
TT is no good. Trust us.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Mar 18, 2010 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Why are we wasting link space and driving traffic to anything at the SBN Ravens site? Seriously? As much as those guys come here and troll?
"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags
True, and not just because I hate the Ravens.
If these predictions are correct, the Ravens could have the #1 defense and offense next year, and steamroll their way into Dallas. Pretty convincing, huh?
Two small paragraphs and a sentence are hardly convincing, most of which is comparing Boldin to Buzz “Light-year.”
What do expect from someone who thinks Modell is a good guy?
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 18, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Ultimately, I still remain committed to helping to cross-promote fellow SB Nation sites. Perhaps in the future I should consider doing “Around the NFL” and choose 3-4 interesting links as opposed to just limiting it to content from the AFC North.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Mar 18, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags
by woodsmeister on Mar 18, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Please no Tebow. Draft Colt. I’ve seen nearly every game he’s played, and seeing Gil Brandt’s comments on Colt only reassured my beliefs. Under the tutelage of Holmgren and Delhomme, Colt can be our guy.
One picture is worth 128K words.
I’ve wanted colt McCoy for a while, but will not be disappointed if we go another direction.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 18, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I also wanted to know everybody’s feelings on bringing T.O. in. He learned a lot of humility in Buffulo. He’d be another good “stop gap” while Massaquoi(sp) grows into the number 1 role, which I believe he is absolutely capable of. All it takes is a QB to actually throw the ball AT him.
If not T.O. what about Tory Holt?
One picture is worth 128K words.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 18, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
That’s awesome — I’d put that poster up in my classroom, except I think the school wouldn’t like that.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 18, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The community college wouldn’t care ;]
I don’t get the sewer picture though. I understand the undefined thing of course though.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Mar 18, 2010 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
you could try this one:
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 19, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Mar 19, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe Thomas can divide by zero, no questions asked.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Joe Thomas is the singularity created from dividing by 0, he has skill so dense no DL can escape it.
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Mar 20, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There is no such thing as evolution. Just a list of creatures that Joe Thomas decided not to pancake yet.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It helps when you have a Chuck Norris poster on your wall. But I take full credit for applying them appropriately.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
(Joe Thomas’s face will soon replace Chuck Norris’s, BTW)
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Joe Thomas is the “Big Crunch”.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Mar 20, 2010 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions
The big bang happened when Joe Thomas decided to pancake himself in the manner mentioned before.
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Mar 20, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A theory is that everything will fall in on itself into a singularity again. Joe Thomas is beyond are comprehension.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Mar 20, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, anyone can divide by zero so long as they treat division as a unitary operator. /nerd
But still, Joe Thomas could do it better and faster.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
You’re going to have to explain this “unitary operator” thing to me.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 20, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Someone will have to explain it to me first. :) It’s been waaaay too long. It’s one of those things that you never again use once you’re out of school.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Brad?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Brad.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Mar 20, 2010 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions
01100010 || 01110010 || 01100001 || 01100100 || 00100001
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Mar 20, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Brad in binary?
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Mar 20, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
nice
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Mar 20, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
brad;
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 20, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Im out on Tebow.. please get Bradford
by Southern Cali Dog on Mar 18, 2010 6:18 PM EDT reply actions
Welcome to DBN, my SoCal neighbor.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Mar 18, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I know. It would be a disaster to take a franchise qb in the first round. Because the Browns missed on Brady Quinn, they can never draft another qb in the first round.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Mar 18, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
What wouldn’t be a disaster is drafting a fantastic safety, someone who will likely make an immediate +impact, which also happens to be a position where we are really lacking.
Then go on to draft a QB in a later round, for a lot less money, one our staff coach and mentor them until they’re ready to start.
Or just plain taking the BPA if said safety is gone, and heaven forbid we try to trade down.
I DON'T CONDONE INCEST. All I did was ask a question.
by North Coast Flea on Mar 18, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
trade up, we need quality draft picks, not more. Already have too many. 12 rookies won’t make the roster.
Watch for us to trade away at least two or 3 picks, maybe even more. Holmgren is in great position to get the exact 4 or 5 players he likes in the first 3 rounds, and I like that.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
trade up, we need quality draft picks, not more. Already have too many. 12 rookies won’t make the roster.
This is not true.
Picks in the NFL are currency. We need as many as possible.
Yes, 12 rookies probably won’t make the team, but we can start trading picks into next seasons draft. A 4th for a 3rd. A 5th for a fourth,
If we get an offer to trade down, I really hope we take it.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 18, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
This draft is almost certain to be as good or better than next years. I trust holmgren to make good trades only. If theres 4 or 5 players that he wants specifically I think he can get them and still have at least 3 or 4 draft picks left to trade or find guys in the late rounds.
we need playmakers, if we can get two secondary starters in the first two rounds and trade back up into the 2nd and find our QB of the future we should definitely do it.
Teams have to really want a guy to trade you next years 4th for a 5th round pick, probably tough to get more than one of those trades.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Teams have to really want a guy to trade you next years 4th for a 5th round pick, probably tough to get more than one of those trades.
Happens every year.
Why do you think NE ends up with a multiple picks in the first and second rounds every year? Because they are smart and never become attached to any player. At the end of the ’09 draft, New England already had 9 picks in this draft.
If you don’t fully understand what I am talking about. read this article about the Eagles.
What would you think if I told you the Philadelphia Eagles got third-, fifth-, sixth- and seventh-round draft choices, plus half a starting cornerback for nothing in this year’s draft?
That’s right. For free. There is no smoke, mirrors or cheating involved. Only thought and effort.
Picks are currency and smart teams always want more.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 18, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
You can more readily do it in the 2nd and 3rd rounds because a team is more likely to be in love with a player up there.
Picks are currency but we have a bunch of currency this year, we need to spend it in this fantastic deep draft without bankrupting ourselves next year. we can get a guy in round one and 2 guys in 2nd and 1-2 guys in 3rd and have a couple picks left over that are just gravy man.
If there was ever a draft to have a lot of picks to help you move around in, this is the draft.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
A 2nd rounder next year is more valuable than a 3rd rounder this year.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 19, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree, unless there is one guy you like and think is a 2nd rounder who falls to the early third. I like the idea of trading the third round picks if you dont have a guy you like.
But even that eagles draft room had a nervous moment waiting for your guy to fall to you. Its all a waiting game and how much you are willing to risk someone else picking your guy. The one guy you can’t risk is your QB. If holmgren is zeroed in on one particular QB, you can’t risk that too much.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
You make the trade even if there is a guy you like. Every time.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Mar 19, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
yes, but do you pass on the QB b/c the safety isn’t there?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
You do still pass, because the CB (Haden) will be there.
It’s extremely unlikely that Berry AND Haden are gone, but Bradford is still there, so I’d take either of them over Bradford.
the question is, is Haden the #1 CB in this draft? I am not sold on him being that. I would say if kyle wilson went to a large school like florida, he may well be drafted in an earlier spot. I am not sold on haden and I think there are much better options in the 2nd round. the thing I see it as:
a) I see a large dropoff between bradford (and somewhat clausen) and McCoy, Lefevour, and the rest at QB. With bradford, he has the ability to start right away or challenge for a starting role at some point. guy like McCoy or lefevour I feel will take quite a bit longer to adjust
b) I do not see a ton of dropoff at the CB position. it is not a one, and then everyone else kind of draft for CB. With this draft, I see one, and then about 10 1A CBs. I do not see much of a dropoff between haden and lets say kareem jackson. and I might even say jackson could end up being better. Haden is pretty short, even for a CB. and his vertical leap was somewhat unimpressive. Jackson’s however was about 3 inches higher and he is slightly taller than joe haden. I am not sold on their being the ONE CB. besides being from florida, I cannot think of major reasons haden is even projected that high.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Haden’s tape is really good. He is definitely the best. But kyle wilson, Kareem Jackson, or Devin McCourty could be solid NFL corners there for us at the 2nd
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
I would probably call him the best, but the margin isn’t as wide IMO as it looks when you are drafting.
there is much more dropoff however between a bradford or clausen, and a mccoy, compared to the dropoff between a haden or a jackson/Wilson.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Its true this year I think about CB, Haden isn’t as strong of a #1 as people thought. McCourty and Jackson surprised some people.
You won’t convince me on bradford or clausen though, because Ive been a Tebow and McCoy fanboy. I think Tebow especially is the best pick this year because he is undervalued. Holmgren has set us up to take a Tebow, McCoy or LeFevour by bringing in Delhomme, and I think that’s exactly what he meant to do. Those later round guys can’t step right in for you but It’s sure nice to get your QB of the future later in the draft.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
I am not huge on tebow or McCoy. I wouldn’t mind them in the third round but these are definitely guys that have to sit at least a year or two.
but if you had the opportunity, wouldn’t it be nice to get your franchise QB that can step in almost right away?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Haden is the #1 CB going in to this draft. He covered good WRs, did a good job, and is solid in all aspects of the game.
There are 3-4 top tier CBs in this draft. The reason you don’t see a big dropoff between Haden and Jackson is because Jackson is in that tier. After him, it falls off pretty fast.
There is one top tier QB, and one “1-A” tier QB.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
He’s also only been a DB for three years and hasn’t maxed out his potential. He has a much higher top end than any other CB in the draft.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Mar 19, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I was with you until this point. Berry is the pick if he’s there. No effing way on Haden at 7.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’d take Haden at 7.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Mar 19, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m aware, I just really don’t want any CB at #7. I would much rather trade down. I am aware others here value CB more than I do.
Suh, Bradford, Berry, trade down in my book. If Holmgren thinks Clausen is legit, I’d be OK with throwing him in that group as well. Obviously, I am hoping people reach for OTs.
I think there is a lot better value at 12thish overall than where we are.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Suh, Bradford, Berry, trade down in my book. If Holmgren thinks Clausen is legit, I’d be OK with throwing him in that group as well. Obviously, I am hoping people reach for OTs.
For me this scenario is Suh, Berry, Haden, trade down. I don’t want to risk losing Haden to someone else if we traded down with him still available.
I agree. I value CB but
a) I do not see haden being truly worth the 7th pick
b) I think you can get similar value at CB in the 2nd.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I think those ‘similar value’ CBs you are thinking of will be gone.
And I think you mean similar talent, not similar value. Because we can get similar(ly bad) value at any point in the draft.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
yes.
I meant similar talent.
I do not believe however that all the CBs of similar talent will be gone. Kyle wilson likely will be gone, but Kareem Jackson or McCourty might not be. it is very likely that one of those is available and although these guys ARE lesser prospects than Haden, there is not a huge difference (expecially a difference of a whole round in the draft).
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I really don’t see McCourty as being on Haden’s level. I believe Jackson will be gone, but I really like him.
This is exactly why I would love to be hunting for a CB at 20th+ overall. There seems like there are one or two guys with great value there every year, many of them turn out to be good players, and their price tag is tiny compared to locking in all that money with one guy.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yes. I do agree…however, I do like McCourty…maybe better than you might…by the way, I think he has an older brother that is a CB in the NFL.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I agree.
A lot of people on here think Wilson, McCourty and (hopefully) Jackson will be there in the second round, but I think that there will be a late run on CB’s, especially when you look at the needs of the teams late in the first.
Baltimore, Minnesota, Green Bay and New England all could easily go CB.
Even with this said, I don’t want Haden at 7.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 20, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I would much rather trade down and have Kareem Jackson be to Baltimore as Alex Mack is to pittsburgh.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yes sir.
I like Jackson more than I like Haden. Better coaching and better instincts IMO.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 20, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
so you argue no QB and point out that the team won 5 games without one?
That is pretty contradictory. a good QB wins you more games than a good DT. they will even win you more games than a good S or CB. I am in favor of getting berry, but the QB can win you games.
so imagine if we play last season over again (hypothetically) and we get bradford in the draft? How many games do you think we would win? I would say, based on how we played near the end, at least 6-7.
if the QB is there, take him, but don’t trade up. the problem is that there is one elite QB and safety in this draft. Bradford is the elite QB (you could argue clausen but I’m not sold) and Berry is the elite Safety (you can argue earl thomas, but I think he would actually be better off as a CB b/c he is great in coverage and has great speed, but not great in run defense for a safety or blitzing, but he would be good for a CB in those categories).
With taking haden, I am not sold that he is even the best CB in this draft. the case can be made for Kyle Wilson, Kareem Jackson, and many others. while there are not a ton of elite players at CB like their are at DT (with first rounders like Dan Williams, McCoy, Suh, Odrick), there are many guys that can be very good players and taken in the 2nd. this is not a top heavy CB draft but extremely deep so I feel we can get more value taking another position at 7.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I believe Berry will produce immediately and Bradford will take awhile, also i think they can get a good qb in third round, considering they going to focus on the run.
Go Browns 09!!!
well…they can get an equally good (porportionally to the round one player) or better safety.
the question is:
Would you rather have Eric Berry and Dan Lefevour
Or would you rather have Bradrord and Darrell Stuckey (or Morgan Burnett).
if you have to choose between the two and you want to make an impact immediately, you go the latter. burnett or stuckey can contribute right away in the safety spot next to elam. so can berry. however, if you draft a McCoy or a lefevour, you might not see them for a couple of years…with bradford he CAN make an impact this year.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Personally, I am not sold on McCoy. He might not be there in the third. if you have to settle with lefevour I would no doubt take bradford and then take a stuckey or burnett.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
What’s their not to be sold on with McCoy. I don’t get it. How is Bradford so much better than McCoy. I’m not saying he isn’t, but I’d like an explanation.
One picture is worth 128K words.
pocket presence, touch, decision making…etc.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Well, I don’t think Bradford is so much better that I’d trade our first round pick for him when I could possibly get McCoy in the second.
by johnnyphoenix on Mar 18, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I would not waste our second round pick on McCoy. I think he is only worth taking in the third round.
lets say you get berry, then in the 2nd, I want a CB. either way, there are so many great CBs that will be there.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I don’t think McCoy will still be there in the 3rd…although I could be wrong of course.
by johnnyphoenix on Mar 18, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think so either. Mostly because I think we trade back into the 2nd round to get him, though.
One picture is worth 128K words.
I am not sold that McCoy is that much better than Lefevour.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
He’s much better.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 19, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
plus McCoy might not even have a strong enough arm to make the kinds of throws you have to as an NFL QB.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
The armstrength argument’s getting old.
Here’s a 45 yd pass he practically flicks into the air:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfSlzVrVgh8
My point is, we have a year to develop a solid QB, and McCoy can certainly develop in a year, if not less.
One picture is worth 128K words.
I disagree. McCoy is nowhere near as polished as bradford.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Bradford plays two full years and has a season ending injury his senior season and is more polished? Colt is a 4 year starter and I’m fairly certain he started every game. He’s the winningest QB in college football history.
I’d say this is an argument we will come to an agreement upon. How about we agree to disagree.
One picture is worth 128K words.
Oh yeah.
I forgot. HE IS A WINNER!!! We all know that translates to winning in the NFL
/sarc
The thing is, McCoy has played his whole career in a spread offense not having to make a ton of reads. He also hasn’t take snaps under center and has no experience in a pro style offense.
but HE IS A WINNER.
Bradford played for a full year in a pro style offense. In this offense he took snaps under center. plus, he took more snaps from center in the non-pro offense (spread-ish) that Oklahoma ran, then the one that McCoy ran.
but McCoy is a winner, his stats look gaudier in places, and started all 4 years…so he MUST be better,
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
well. it is a footwork thing. people use it for tebow and it is valid, they use it for lefevour, but you think its not a good argument b/c you like McCoy?
The fact is, it is a footwork issue. Bradford actually has experience taking snaps from center. Its the same reason Clausen is pro ready. he has learned how to take snaps from center. this can take a year or so just for this for QBs to learn.
oh, and that argument is so much worse than arguing HE IS A WINNER.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
yep. because it happened to BQ we should never listen to it.
you know what. because Brady Quinn came from a pro style offense, lets just draft guys who aren’t from a pro style offense…right???
Also, since we drafted him in the first, we should NEVER draft a QB in the first…NO good QBs come from the first…
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Just because you come from a pro style offense don’t necessary mean you’re going to be successful
Go Browns 09!!!
well.
Obviously.
They said.. B,Quinn was pro ready. Lets not fall for that again.
To me this sounds like that BECAUSE of BQ, we should NOT draft a pro style QB. because of an EXCEPTION to the rule not the NORM.
2 people jump out of a plane. one has a parachute but it is faulty and dies. one doesn’t have a parachute and miraculously lives (it happens). by the logic you use, you would jump out of a plane without a parachute…good luck man!
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
by bross09 on Mar 18, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not saying don’t draft a player who come from a pro style, just don’t let that be the deciding factor.
Go Browns 09!!!
It is obviously not a deciding factor. just like I would not draft a guy b/c of 40 speed. It is definitely an IMPORTANT factor but not a deciding one. like judging any prospect, it is one piece of the puzzle. lets say ryan perriloux came from a pro style offense, I wouldn’t care b/c he STINKS.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
you argued Bradford was more polished, I’m curious as to why?
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by notthatnoise on Mar 19, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
decision making, experience in a pro style offense, experience taking snaps, reading a defense, and I find him to be more accurate on his throws.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
What? He was in a pro style offense from what I read his freshman year. He also does take a fair amount of snaps from under center. I find his ability to read a defense and his decision makign better.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Pro-style in some aspects, but the Oklahoma offense is very unique. The tempo and play-calling style helped him out a lot.
The tempo is huge and something I do not account for enough when people bring up “the system”.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
yeah, florida has gotten a lot of press for the unique offense but Oklahoma under bradford really put up some crazy videogame numbers the last few years.
Certainly Bradford’s supporting cast was fantastic and that offense is a really potent scheme. people forget that Oklahoma is where Mike Leach came from.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
yep. He was OC there for 1 year 10 years ago so they must run the same offense, right?
All sooner QBs must have inflated stats b/c of that right?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I am not really referring to the stats being “inflated”, just what a defense must do when faced with a no huddle O. Less substitutions, more simplicity.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’m probably wrong, but I thought I remember Bradford looking to the sidelines alot.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
It seems college coaches like calling plays themselves more and more.
One picture is worth 128K words.
like in the nfl?
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 20, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea. Why don’t they just have recievers in the college QB’s helmets?
One picture is worth 128K words.
I think it has to do with the size of receivers in the modern game (many are 6’-3" or taller). A Reciever that tall simply won’t fit inside a quarterback’s helmet.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Mar 20, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I meant walking to the line and having the sideline call the play after reading the defense. I thought I saw Bradford doing this but it was probably another team.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
They don’t call the play, they either make checks or tell the QB what they read. Oklahoma does this, with the fake snap count (potentially), and then the whole team looking over there.
All you need to do as a defense is to shift late to completely eff this up.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Thank you, that’s what I was confused about.
So are they effectively taking the reading of the defense and making checks out of the QBs hand or are they just giving him help?
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
Yep.
And sometimes, you have a QB who actually knows exactly what the coaches are checking to or reading, but the offense needs everyone to be on the same page.
And if the QB’s progression is based off of the coverage, he will still have to do some reading after the snap regardless of any “check with me”.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
My understanding is that the coaches call a play, offense quickly runs to the line, and then the coaches read the defense and decide whether or not run that play or switch it up.
If I am wrong, please set me straight.
So as for Bradfords ability to do any pre-snap reading of a defense, I would give it a question mark at best.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 20, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
My understanding of OC Kevin Wilson’s system, from reading an interview with him and watching OU play, is such:
1. The personnel packages and substitutions are handled by assistants on the sidelines.
2. The offensive line immediately sets up on the ball after the last play. The skill position players wait for the call.
3. Kevin Wilson makes a call through the headset to assistants on the sideline.
4. The initial call is relayed to the players through use of whiteboards/ color coded signs on the sidelines. Skill position players take their split.
4. Bradford takes an initial read where he can either run the play or check to the sideline. If he checks…
5. Wilson relays through the headset what "complementary"* play he wants.
6. Bradford/Skill position players receiver signal from sidelines, and Bradford relays it to his offensive line.
7. Adjusted play is run.
*The play adjustments are part of a complementary package based upon personnel/formation. Therefore, each package would be composed of a group of plays, likely in the 4-6 range. The goal is to be able to check into a ‘succesful’ scheme against any particular defense. The simplest example of this would be a ‘box read’ where Kevin Wilson counts the number of defensive players within the box between offensive tackles. adjusting the call to where the team has a numbers advantage.
Thus, a lot of the adjustments that Bradford will have to make in the NFL were handled by a coach in the sky.
Makes you wonder how QB’s ever called their own game huh?
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 21, 2010 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions
not really. I am not sold on clausen on some of his progression reading.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Do you know if ND does progressions or coverage reads?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’d bet they did under charlie Weis. Clausen could be an excellent quarterback but he really only had the one fantastic season and he came out early. Lots of NFL guys don’t like junior quarterbacks.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Do you know if ND does progressions or coverage reads?
I’d bet they did under charlie Weis.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Mar 20, 2010 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
also, although Bradford didn’t take snaps from center for most of his career, he DID play in a pro style offense as a freshman. he also throws more of the routes you have to throw as a pro. McCoy has experience in neither of these areas.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Arm, size, decision-making.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
If I had to guess I would say its mostly arm and size, I doubt they’re that far apart in decision making, though it probably is still a factor.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Mar 19, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not ‘sold’ on any of these quarterbacks…as a matter of fact, the only QB I was ‘sold’ on before the draft in the last 20 years or so was Payton Manning. That’s about it.
by johnnyphoenix on Mar 18, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering that there was widespread disagreement about whether Manning or Ryan Leaf was the better choice at the time, you must have exceptional vision about choosing a QB. Couldn’t be a little influenced by hindsight, could it?
No, I wasn’t ‘sold’ on Leaf. Thought he had potential to be great, and thought he would be very good in the pros.
However, I didn’t think he was a ’can’t miss’ like manning. To me Manning was already playing with the maturity and demeanor of a seasoned nfl vet while still in college, and that made the difference to me.
by johnnyphoenix on Mar 19, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought Leaf was going to be the better QB.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 19, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions