NFL Combine: Eric Berry Thrives, Joe Haden Disappoints in 40-yard Dash
by Chris Pokorny on Mar 2, 2010 10:49 AM EST
in General News
79 comments
It was the defensive backs turn to showcase their talent on Tuesday. Considering the fact that most projections have the Cleveland Browns taking a defensive back with the seventh overall pick in the draft, I find it suitable to take a look at the 40-times of CB Joe Haden and S Eric Berry.
Most projections have had Berry being selected before the Browns pick, leaving Haden available at No. 7. Did their 40-times do anything to change that?
(Please be aware that these times are unofficial to this point; they will be updated as the official ones are posted)
- S Eric Berry: 4.46 and 4.40.
- CB Joe Haden: 4.57 and 4.60.
Those are solid numbers for Berry, who certainly didn't harm his stock. As for Haden, the results were disappointing. Over at Big Cat Country, our Jacksonville Jaguars affiliate, they initially had hopes that Haden would be available to them at No. 10. Now, they wouldn't be surprised if he slipped past the top 10, making comparisons to the disappointing 4.55 that Malcolm Jenkins ran a year ago.
Well, it's safe to say now that Joe Haden's stock has taken a hit and may slide past the Jaguars radar if they stay at the #10 spot. If the commotion on twitter is correct, Haden turned in a 4.57 and 4.6 in his 40 yard dash. In a position where speed is the X-factor, Haden may have ran himself out of the top 10.
Haden might still be a solid pick, but is he worth it at No. 7 overall? Is speed enough to change your minds to address another position in round one, and then draft a cornerback in the second round?
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This actually makes me pretty hesitant toward Haden. I think the Malcolm Jenkins comparison is a good one in this case.
Yeah, I thought the same thing when I was reading about his 40 time. Many of us here were talking about picking Jenkins at 5 last year before his slow 40 time at last year’s combine.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 2, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Agree. For me personally, I wanted Haden because I saw what a game-changer a corner can be last year with Revis. It is wrong, however, to just assume that the best CB in the draft this year is going to be as good as the best CB in the NFL. I wonder if others were making the same mistake as I was. Still wouldn’t be upset if we took him — on this one, I trust Mangini’s judgment on CB’s (usually it’s “I trust Holmgren”), and if he think Haden can be a top 5 CB, it is worth taking a shot. But I wouldn’t be unhappy if we passed him over.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Mar 2, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Question for those who wanted Haden prior to today?
Why? What did you like about him?
and if you changed your mind, why? Because of 80 yards?
You are reading my signature.
As a simple answer, I was simply interested in the best-rated defensive back on the board due to our team needs, whether that is Berry or Haden. In terms of what separates him from other players, I’m pretty much always under the impression that it’s a crapshoot when it comes to the draft.
Right now, I haven’t changed my mind — I chose option number two. That could certainly change by the time the official SB Nation mock draft rolls around though.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Mar 2, 2010 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
If those 80 yards are important to any position, it’s CB.
And we aren’t talking about an “ok” time for a corner, we’re talking “wouldn’t be able to chase some of the bigger backs in the leage down” slow.
I didn’t really like drafting any CB at 7th overall, so I chose C. Haden is probably still the top corner on my board.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
And we aren’t talking about an "ok" time for a corner, we’re talking "wouldn’t be able to chase some of the bigger backs in the leage down" slow.
i go back to the fact that if he was viewed as worthy of a top 10 pick based on all his game tape, two bad times erases that? obviously, as you said, speed is important at CB. but if those two times change his draft status that much, than he was misjudged in the first place.
You are reading my signature.
but if those two times change his draft status that much, than he was misjudged in the first place.
maybe. it isn’t like players have never been overrated. i agree with rufio on this, the 40 times are probably more important for DBs, mainly CB’s, than any other position. we just can’t afford to miss on this pick.
Malcolm Jenkins was a much better prospect and more threatening CB than Haden coming out of college. Even with looking at the game tape, he still was taken advantage of by Lafell and QB’s had no fear throwing the ball in his directions. On the other hand with Jenkins, QB’s flat out ignored his side of the field, to the point where they tried putting him at safety just so he could have some sort of an impact.
If Jenkins wasn’t fast enough to drop his draft position, why the hell wouldn’t Haden fall?
by The Licensed Pessimist on Mar 2, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
And on top of that, if you have slower CB’s you better have consistent pressure and dynamic safety coverage. We have neither, so it would be a mistake to draft Haden so high. I always had Kyle Wilson higher
by The Licensed Pessimist on Mar 2, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think it necessarily changes his status as the best corner on the board. Now, you go back and look at the tape and see if there were times where he had trouble running deep with guys. Maybe he isn’t fast in shorts, but can still reel guys in when everyone is in pads.
I don’t think a bad 40 time erases what you did in games. The “it’s a process” cliché is a cliché for a reason. The tape is the most important ingredient. Now that teams start to get workout numbers, they can go back and look at that tape through different lenses, they can more closely inspect someone’s game. If you go back and look at the tape and he is turning and running with Jacoby Ford, then you worry less. If after the red-flag 40 time you go back and look at the tape and realize he can’t cover people down the field, then yes, he was misjudged in the first place.
As a CB, you simply need very good speed to be an elite player, which is why you would knock a guy out of the top half of the 1st. I think it would be less of a concern for a guy you wanted to get in the 2nd who you weren’t banking on to make the pro bowl. That said, even at the end of the process last year, I still liked Jenkins as the best corner even though his 40 time wasn’t blazing. I personally would like to draft corners in the mid-teens or later, once we have better players closer to the LoS. I just don’t think CBs are worth top-10 picks (unless they are veterans who you know are pro bowlers).
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Also, I believed at the time of last year’s draft that Jenkins could play FS, while I am not as sure about Haden. That probably added to Jenkins’ value while it does not add to Haden’s
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
very good points. I agree on where you suggest drafting CBs. I think that is one of the better places to draft them,
One thing is that I feel that Haden might have the skills to play FS. I am not 100% but I feel like it isn’t unreasonable at all. From what I saw on tape and what I read about in scouting reports, his tackling and ball skills are some of his best qualities. those skills transfer well into the safety position. He also has good bulk for a CB and is excellent against the run. to put it into perspective, he came in at the same height and one pound heavier than Kurt Coleman…
By the way I was on walterfootball to find his official weigh in and I found this quote when looking at an article about FA WRs
Matt “Coke Zero” Jones is talented, but who knows if he’s kept his nose clean?
sorry…that quote made me giggle…
I remember you also saying that people were smitten with Haden just because he could run a fast 40.
Myth Busted
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 3, 2010 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t remember saying that…but yeah, myth busted.
I always thought one of his major skills was his tackling and playmaking ability (and ball skills). I think if he puts on a little bit of bulk, he could be a great safety though. this might drop his stock as a corner but I still think he has the abiltiy to play safety.
That is slow enough of a time to warrant another look at the film and to drop him down a few spots on the big board.
I bet all he does between now and his pro day is try to get this somewhere under 4.45.
I don’t think Berry’s times are out of the range that was expected from him. I still have some hope that he drops to us at #7.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
As someone who watched Berry's 3 year TN career in person
trust me, hope he falls to the Browns. Hell I hope he does, his football instincts and IQ are outstanding. Monte had him running the Tampa-2 down here last season, consequently his INT numbers fell, but he played a larger role in the overall defensive scheme. He played basically every position on the field masterfully. He can stonewall RBs like a LB (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-hqGroNreE) and yet has the play making skills of an All-American DB. EB14 is the MAN! I’d be the first one down here lining up to get his Browns jersey…
Neyland Stadium-It goes to eleven.
Eric Berry is indeed awesome. He’s always been the guy I’ve wanted at 7 and it will not change.
by gahnki on Mar 2, 2010 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
oh. definitely. He is like a dream package…plus he was brilliant at the combine. I have an odd suspicion he might fall…maybe it is me turning it into more than it is based on hope, but there is a significant chance…St. Louis has to take a QB IMO for it to work (and I think they will very likely take one)
Honestly, this doesn’t change my image of Haden at all. I was still a big Malcom Jenkins fan last year, despite the slow fourty. Remember, the 40 time is one of the most overrated “measurables” that the combine runs. Once the shoulder pads are on, a lot of slow guys play faster than their better timed counter parts.
Yes, but I believe he played a nickel back role to help his development.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 2, 2010 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
Really? I was looking for him and couldn’t find him at the start.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 3, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Same here, but Haden is currently plan ‘B’.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 2, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
Thaddeus Gibson has put up sick numbers at the combine. I’d love for him to slip to the Browns in the 2nd round.
He has never really been considered a first rounder. He would be a reach in the 2nd.
Scientific research has proven that you lose exactly 5.37 billion brain cells every time you listen to Todd McShay.
by TheRealSlimShady on Mar 2, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
yes. I like him but he is a little undersized. granted, that is more for a 4-3 but he is okay size for a 3-4 Rush Linebacker…granted 6-2 244(ish) is still pretty undersized for a rush end. he has a great first step but not elite speed. IMO he is definitely a tweener b/c of his size. I like him but b/c of the smaller frame, he could end up being a bust wherever he is taken. I see him as a late third rounder.
No way, Gibson could easily go from late first to mid-second. Unlike most defensive ends, he’s had experience playing LB before (back in high school) and was terrific in the LB drills. I’ll sacrifice a little size if it means my guy will have an easier time transitioning to our defense.
by BrownDawg1409 on Mar 3, 2010 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
I guess we will agree to disagree. This is just where i feel teams will take him. this isn’t a knock on him. i like him as a player. however there are other areas of need I would rather address in the 2nd round. I am somewhat satisfied with our pass rush. it can definitely get better, but I would rather focus on improving other areas.
Homer much?
Scientific research has proven that you lose exactly 5.37 billion brain cells every time you listen to Todd McShay.
by TheRealSlimShady on Mar 3, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
I dont think that Haden's 40 is a big deal
Keep an eye on his pro day. He didn’t have specific track coaches preparing him and deon sanders commented that his stance at the start was “terrible” so perhaps with better preperation he will have a better showing at his pro day.
That said I am still praying that the rams take a QB and Berry falls to us because the Depth of the CB position is real nice in this draft. If we got berry in the first its not unreasonable to expect one of the second tier CBs to fall down to us in the second. Brandon spikes would be a nice pickup there too.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
He also might be running on a much faster track at his pro day. It’s not an “apples to apples comparison”, if I can use some draftspeak.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I think Haden lost a bunch of time on bad starts and could now be a steal down in the teens, if the Browns were to get Berry. I’d like Berry for the Browns but Haden is definitely a solid player and probably the best CB.
CB is odd because different schemes require a little different players at CB. If a team runs a zone-heavy tampa 2 scheme they generally want a little bit bigger corners who can jam the bigger wideouts at the line and still have quickness to cover the flat zones effectively. Meanwhile a defense that likes to blitz (like Rex Ryan with the jets or Gregg Williams with the Saints) generally want a bit smaller corners who can cover speedy receivers man to man.
Haden has value because people think he could fit into either of these schemes pretty well and he can play the run well too, a more unique skill for an NFL corner.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
They are probably taking Bruce Campbell.
Scientific research has proven that you lose exactly 5.37 billion brain cells every time you listen to Todd McShay.
by TheRealSlimShady on Mar 2, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
His “4.24” has been changed to a 4.43. Don’t know if you knew that before your post. Still a good time though.
If you're at the table and you don't see a sucker..... you're it.
by Brownie's Year on Mar 2, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
well, one walterfootball they are criticizing the “official” times. there was one player (I forget who) that had an “official” time of about 4.37 and they did the thing that they have been doing on the NFL network where they superimpose 2 shadows of 2 different runners, and Mays significantly beat the guy that ran an “official” 4.37 and an unofficial around the same area…but I guess the cameras lie…
I haven’t been a huge fan of Haden from the start.
As for his 40 time, he looks much quicker on film than he did in underpants and I was shocked to see his time today. I won’t kill the guy because of his 40 because I don’t see many players running away from him on gamedays.
If Indy drafts Taylor Mays and sticks him at OLB he will be a Pro Bowler year in and year out.
Much more of a redflag is the “oveinvolved dad”. That’s never, ever a good thing.
On the other hand who’s this FS Earl Davis coming out of nowhere- with Elam onboard our need is at FS (assuming Pool doesn’t come back or transitions to corner) so we might be able to carry an undersized ball hawk.
Heh, who am I kidding- PLEASE let Berry fall to us!
"The Braylon vaccine- one jab and you'll never catch anything ever again"
Pool is coming back.
Scientific research has proven that you lose exactly 5.37 billion brain cells every time you listen to Todd McShay.
by TheRealSlimShady on Mar 3, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
In my last mock I had Mays going to the Colts.
Scientific research has proven that you lose exactly 5.37 billion brain cells every time you listen to Todd McShay.
by TheRealSlimShady on Mar 3, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Because he is the type of guy who is pretty good, but not good enough to be a top 10 pick
Scientific research has proven that you lose exactly 5.37 billion brain cells every time you listen to Todd McShay.
by TheRealSlimShady on Mar 3, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
I JUST THINK HES THE NEXT RAY LEWIS TYPE OF PLAYER. WE COULD USE THAT ATTITUDE AND CRAZED LOOK (WITHOUT THE MURDERING) AND FIRE ON D. I JUST HAVE THIS GUT FEELING HE’S GOING TO BE AMAZING AND … YET ANOTHER WE PASSED ON…
LEARN TO USE THE REPLY BUTTON AND TALK WITHOUT CAPS OR YOU WILL BE FLAGGED.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Mar 3, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
Because if he isn’t the next Ray Lewis, and the odds are that he won’t be, we used the 7th pick overall on a position that is easily filled.
by Bernie19Kosar on Mar 3, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Mar 4, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
/sarc in case no one can tell.
The sporting gods hate Cleveland, they give us false hopes, then yank it out from under us like a tablecloth.
by North Coast Flea on Mar 4, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
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