Devils Advocate: Why we shouldn't draft Eric Berry
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 2:34 PM EDT
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Knowshon Moreno thinks it would be a mistake to pass on Berry
- Even in todays pass happy NFL, safety is still not considered a high-priority position. Sure Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu may disagree, but even those two Pro Bowlers were drafted 24th and 16th respectively. In the past 10 years there have been five safeties drafted in the top ten (Laron Landry, Donte Whitner, Micheal Huff, Sean Taylor and Roy Williams). Anyone excited about that?
- See of this sounds familiar to anyone. Browns hire a new employee that still has strong connections to their former team. Former team falls in love with a draft prospect. Former team wants to trade up in the draft for said prospect. Former employee works trade. Browns get out of the top ten. That was a sweet move by Mangini. I think it could happen again, but with Heckert doing the dealing instead. Eagles want to trade up.
- Safeties can be found anywhere in the draft. Ryan Clark, undrafted. Adrian Wilson, 3rd round. Bob Sanders, 2nd round. Brian Dawkins, 2nd round. Yeremiah Bell, 6th round. Tanard Jackson, 4th round. Why waste a pick on a position that is filled so easily elsewhere?
- Eric Berry may not be great. I know, shocking. When you get by everything he does well, there is still the chance that he doesn't become the next Ed Reed. Maybe he becomes the next LaRon Landry. Good player, but far from greatness. Is a missed pick on a safety something that this franchise can risk right now? Wouldn't a safer position like offensive tackle or running back be a safer choice?
- We can grab a safety like Morgan Burnett or Rashard Jones later on in the draft. No they won't give us everything that Berry does, but won't they give us enough to get by? Could you live with a secondary of Wright, Brown, Elam and Burnett if it meant we added Bryan Bulaga to the right side of the OLine for the next 10 years?
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Yep, you did. It’s okay, it’s expected now.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Apr 19, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
No idea. Chris had to fix it.
I am dumb as a football bat when it comes to formatting stuff.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 20, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
this was a much tougher decision than i thought it would be. if we got that deal, i might do it, but i have a hard time imagining us getting that.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
I tend to agree. If we were offered that… well… crap, I’m not sure.
You know what might be the deciding factor in whether or not to accept that hypothetical Eagles trade? How does the FO feel about Colt McCoy, and where do they expect him to go.
*If they/we love him, and expect him to go to Minnesota in the first, they might take that trade. It would make a lot of sense to end up with a new QB prospect and two second rounders as opposed to an elite safety talent and a late third with no answer at QB.
*If they/we love him, but they expect him to be available, then it makes less sense. Take the elite safety, the eminently groomable value QB prospect, and move on.
*If they aren’t high on McCoy, but Clausen is available at 7 and rated highly enough to fit the slot, they may pass on Berry regardless.
*If the top three QBs are out of the picture, then that’s a hell of a discussion for the football minds that far exceed my own. As a rule for the top 12 or so, I prefer trading down unless you’re discussing an elite talent in the mold of an Adrian Peterson. I think of Berry as an elite prospect, so I take him in this scenario.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
This was my thinking.
We get down to 24, take McCoy and start rebuilding the defense.
I am a huge Eric Berry fan, but I would take the Eagles deal.
I asked my brother who had a good counter point; “We already have 10 picks but we have no Eric Berry’s.”
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
My response to your brother is even simpler: “We have no QB.”
If at all possible, we need to settle that position ASAP. My whole strategy would revolve around that goal.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
That is fair, he just believes that outside of Bradford, there isn’t a QB in this draft he would trade Eric Berry for.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That, too, is fair. If getting #3 on my big board at #7 is the worst we get, I’ll be just fine.
I do like McCoy. I think he’s one of the rare QBs that has A) has a decent chance to land outside the first round and B) has a good chance of competing at a high level in the NFL. Especially for a team that will likely incorporate a lot of west coast offense ideas, he could do very well.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
I agree. McCoy is in some ways like drew brees coming out
Scouting report for brees:
Positives: Touch passer…Confident leader who knows how to take command in the huddle…Very tough and mobile and effective throwing on the move…Puts good zip behind the short and mid-range passes…Shows good judgement and keen field vision…Has a take-charge attitude and is very cool under pressure
Negatives: Plays in the spread offense, taking the bulk of his snaps from the shotgun….Lacks accuracy and touch on his long throws… Seems more comfortable in the short/intermediate passing attack…Does not possess the ideal height you look for in a pro passer
To me, these are some of the very things that have been talked about with colt…same strengths and weaknesses.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
by bross09 on Apr 19, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think what I think you are summarizing, is, to me, that this draft is gonna be the most exciting i can remember…i have found myself absolutely giddy with excitement, mainly because there are so many options/scenarios/players that excite me.
but that thomas, quinn, wright was a draft I loved, could have been three starters, not sure on Quinn yet.
Every day may not be good, but there's something good in every day.
That draft was exciting, but the Quinn thing put a huge damper on it for me on draft day. After some time I rationalized and convinced myself to be excited, but most of the scenarios I’m hoping for are far better than that draft.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
Blasphemy.
But, I voted “No, Eric Berry at 7 is a great deal”
I don’t think he is worth trading up for.
Suh is the only player in this draft that I’d want us to trade up for.
Agree to agree
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Apr 19, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree to agree only if there is an agreement.
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
If the agreement is agreed upon then I will agree to agree.
The Drive, the Fumble, the Shot, the Meltdown...still hopefull.
I’m not trying to antagonize you or anything, but i know how you feel about that one, i just don’t know why? I’ve heard you say over and over you don’t want a first round QB. my question is, why not?
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Apr 19, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t really want to draft first round QB either. My reason is that I want a more solid foundation established first. QB is the most important position once a team is in the galaxy of solid on the lines, and especially much more solid on defense.
I would be okay with a second round QB or maybe none. I want to see improvement in pass defense, pass rush, and run defense.
It’s a first rounder, or bust for me. BK19 has already proven that, outside the first round, guys have an EXTREMELY hard time becoming NFL starting calibur. If we trade down to 24 and pick McCoy, that’d be alright with me.
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I have another theory too…Its first round or UDFA. this sounds weird but look at it.
jake Delhomme turned out to be a decent player (until 2009), Tony Romo has been good, Warner is borderline Hall of Famer, and Matt Moore could be a very good player down the road. More often than not, the UDFAs turn out to be nothing special. However, I don’t have all the #3 in front of me, but considering how many small school UDFAs have made an impact since the draft went to 7 rounds, I would say it is just as safe to take one as a UDFA as in the midrounds.
Yes UDFA’s are an exception but I kinda have a theory about them. A guy like Tony Romo comes out and people pass on him b/c they are unsure if his skills translate to the NFL. scouts really liked his skills and upside and he put up great stats. honestly, looking back it was surprising he wasn’t drafted.
the thing is, because not a ton is known about these guys, they could be great but teams pass b/c of the level of competition. they are somewhat of an unknown entity. Midrounders like pike are a very known entity but they have a major flaw in their game (like pikes noodle arm) severely hinders them from being good.
I would like to see us maybe get a guy like a Noah Shepard or Matt Nichols if we don’t get Bradford. I believe guys like this who put up very good stats in smaller conferences, can be good.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
But when you say UDFA, you name 3-4 examples out a literally thousands of players that undrafted.
You are focusing on an incredibly small percentage.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
yes…this is true.
I am not saying that these guys are at all guarantees, I do think however, a guy like the guys I listed (not likely to be drafted but most scouts think they are almost guaranteed a roster spot at some point) would have about the same chance when you look at it of becoming a great QB as a guy like a tony pike. I am more advocating taking a flier on a guy in camp…I am not certain or expecting any of these guys to be a guaranteed star, but I don’t think its a bad idea to look there.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
we have a very good offensive line and about an average defensive line. I think we have a foundation set already, and its time to start adding impact players.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Apr 19, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
This. If we wait until we have great talent everywhere else then we’ll be waiting a long time. We need a QB to take our team to the next level.
by Buckeye Brad on Apr 19, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, it’s almost like Browns fans are afraid to draft the best player available because we have seen so many failures. We come up with excuses for the guy to fail before he even gets here.
Mike Junkin, anyone?
"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags
by woodsmeister on Apr 20, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
QB is the most important position once a team is in the galaxy of solid on the lines,
we aren’t in the galaxy of “solid” on the lines?
If you are talking D-line we have Tuba Rubin (more than solid), Rogers (just dominant) and Robaire Smith (solid but getting older).
On the offensive side we have Joe Thomas (words can’t describe his dominance), Steinbach (very solid), Mack (excellent) and porkchop womack (solid starting guard), and Pashos at tackle (average but not "solid).
Really, one we are really a receiver and an elite QB away from truly being a very good offense. we have a very solid running game and a very good offensive line.
I would like to see improvement too on the defense maybe before we grab a QB, i am just playign devils advocate in a way to your point. We could be more solid on defense but this draft really is littered with defensive players.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
QB is the most important position once a team is in the galaxy of solid on the lines, and especially much more solid on defense.
as i recall, the colts were missing a lot of key pieces at many positions; then they drafted peyton manning. a superstar QB can make up for a lot of other deficiencies.
I think that’s a fair question. Personally, I can agree with most of the reasons brought up here (such as hefty price, risk, etc).
But the main thing that would really bother me is the idea of passing up on Suh for Bradford. I think Suh is a much, much, much lower risk for the pick. He is easily the best talent I’ve ever witnessed going into a draft that I’ve ever followed. I think it would be an unbelievably bad mistake to pass up on him if he is available.
this is just completely false. DTs are maybe the riskiest position to draft high. honestly they have the highest bust rate and even the elite ones do not have an impact on the game compared to an elite QB.
DTs in the top 10 are highly risky and even if they don’t bust, they rarely have the impact on a game that a pick this high would warrant. Suh would have to basically be Warren Sapp or Kevin Williams for him to be worth the money he is given or to be worth the players you would likely pass up.
Basically: Elite QB>>>>Elite DT
If the best blocking fullback in history was in the draft and you had the foresight to know that he would be this…would you draft this player over a possible franchise QB? I would, because even the best blocking fullback only makes an impact on the game comparable to an above average QB…
Now a DT makes more of an impact than FB, but I would still take if I had the opportunity, Eli Manning over Kevin Williams (and kevin williams is all pro)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
But Simmsinns doesn’t mention any of this.
He believes that Suh is better than Bradford. Plain and simple.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Suh is a much, much, much lower risk for the pick
He mentioned this but is saying Suh is much lower risk. I just plain disagree. even if he is one of the best DT players to come out in a long time, that doesn’t mean to me he is less risk.
I think it would be an unbelievably bad mistake to pass up on him if he is available.
and this makes me think “franchise QB or franchise DT”.
He mentioned things that set himself up for this really.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Sigh.
Simmsinns isn’t saying that a franchise DT is more valuable than a franchise QB, but that Suh has a much greater chance to become a franchise player than Bradford does. Certainly a valid argument.
"There is a small, but important difference between peeing in the pool and peeing into the pool." - Demitri Martin
by Browns town on Apr 19, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
he is saying however, that Bradford is a much much much higher risk than Suh.
I don’t honestly see it b/c I would never call a DT in any draft a “low risk” player.
Certainly the argument can be made that suh has a better chance at being a franchise player at the position.
However, the argument can also be made that an above average/good QB has just the same impact on the game of football as a franchise DT.
To have the impact that you would want out of this high of a pick, a QB just has to be a good or above average player for his position. For a DT to have the same impact, they have to be a franchise guy.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
he is saying however, that Bradford is a much much much higher risk than Suh.
This has nothing to do with position in this discussion. He thinks Suh will be a dominant force. He is unsure about Bradford.
Hence in his mind, Suh is a lesser risk. It is the mans opinion, pure and simple.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 20, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
It was very unclear the way he worded it though that he said that. He should have just said he thinks bradford is risky for a QB. instead he goes on about how “safe” of a pick suh is compared. If he just said he thinks bradford is a risky QB, this whole thread would not have happened. It seemed like he was saying that a DT is a safe pick the way he worded it.
I can understand that opinion though, even though i personally don’t agree.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Statistically, since 1991top 16 DTs have busted at a greater rate than top 16 quarterbacks. Doesn’t mean Suh is more likely to bust, but the draft is unpredictable like that.
"Smokescreen."
True, but I personally have never seen a DT dominate like Suh did. I include Warren Sapp and Dan Wilkerson in that group.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 20, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
don’t misunderstand me, Suh is easily the safest pick in this draft and one of the best prospects in years, but i think he gets a little too much hype. You never, ever, pass on a guy you think could be a franchise QB, regardless of what else is there. to put it another way: you wouldn’t pass on Drew Brees for Albert Haynesworth.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Apr 19, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
plus the chances of him being haynesworth are not guaranteed.
I would take Drew Brees over Haynesworth.
I would also take David Carr over Ryan Sims. At least carr had a positive impact on a team at one point…
Oftentimes when you “miss” on a QB early, it is not as big as missing at DT. Until 2007, eli manning was a disappointment but I would still have taken a QB “bust” over a DT “bust” in most situations (except for an akili smith “bust”)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Trade down if the opportunity presents itself.
by Western Reserve on Apr 19, 2010 3:10 PM EDT reply actions
Trading down is tempting, but with Berry there I vote to take him.
I like this Devil’s Advocate series. More coming?
I would like to get one more out before the draft.
Any suggestions on the topic?
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t advocate drafting RBs high, but guy is a home run hitter and I frankly would not be surprised if I heard his name called.
That would be a tough one for me to write since I hate RB’s, but I think it would be a good topic.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Why not humor Jaws and advocate the Tebow in the first two rounds?
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Apr 19, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
wow…you quote a poorly written and researched article with another one about statistics that is completely irrelevant?
those three things combined is more useless information than my brain needs…
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
You typically give more useless information than any of us need in your posts that could be considered novels.
by AG7 on Apr 19, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
all you ever produce is useless information. Relax dink.
"Smokescreen."
by jaws. on Apr 19, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I am relaxed…those articles however are more useless and irrational than just about anything I have written…
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Thats why they get paid money to write about football and you get ridiculed and ignored by a bunch of nerds on an internet forum.
"Smokescreen."
and you get ridiculed and ignored by a bunch of nerds on an internet forum.
yep…people STILL listen to you talk about tebow (or troy smith or any other player you mention every minute) and think you are having something intelligent to say.
what is with the ad hominems from you anyways? did i insult the only proof you have that tim tebow is good?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
The fact that people ignore you and tell you that you haven’t the slightest idea what you are talking about should clue you in to the fact that you haven’t the slightest idea what you are talking about.
"Smokescreen."
Fangirl interpretation: They must be in WUV!!!! <3
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
meh…I am not into love/hate relationships…
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Nope, it’s GOTTA BE WUV!!! fan girl squealing
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 20, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, you own it. If it doesn’t, you don’t own it. And if it doesn’t, you’re an asshole. Just like you.
by Brownie's Year on Apr 20, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
And trust us, that is reeeeeally hard to do.
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t Holgren say our 1st round pick was going to start right away? Or did I misread something?
I wonder…
Taking Bryant at 7
Taking Clausen at 7
Taking an OT (Bulaga, Williams) at 7
Trading up (from 38) for Golden Tate (or Arrelious Benn, or other wideout)
Taking Clausen at seven is the best topic here now that you mention it.
Do that one B19.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
I took the "douche bag" label off Clausen this morning. I heard him on the radio and he seems like a stand up guy. He declined the invitation to New York so he could spend Draft day with his grandpa who isn’t doing to well. That’s definitely the right thing to do.
If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, you own it. If it doesn’t, you don’t own it. And if it doesn’t, you’re an asshole. Just like you.
by Brownie's Year on Apr 19, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
What about Earl Thomas? There’s been some hype about how good Thomas is and the Browns have said virtually nothing about him. Whether Berry is available at 7 or not, the Browns could trade down to take Thomas and still get an extra pick or two in the second or third rounds.
The Drive, the Fumble, the Shot, the Meltdown...still hopefull.
I’d rather have Berry, but I wouldn’t be heartbroken if we drafted Thomas in the 1st. If we drafted Thomas with Berry still on the board, I might be a little upset.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’d view that situation a lot like I did the Ngata/Wimbley situation – with quiet but seething skepticism.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
I was afraid of Ngata’s perceived lack of work ethic. Do you really think he becomes a monster if he gets drafted by us and not a team with those stars on D?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Maybe not as much, but we needed a NT desperately at the time. It’s the keystone of the 3-4 and we had Jason Fisk wheezing his way to diabetes anchoring our defense. That’s why I liked Ngata and was so pissed when we gave him to the Ravens.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
by danvail on Apr 20, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
It certainly is unfortunate to have to see him twice a year.
by Western Reserve on Apr 20, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
While Berry would be hard to pass on, I think the additional daft picks would be more beneficial. They had Sheffter and McShay looking at teams who want to trade up and the Eagles were among them, looking for safety help in particular,according to them. This being the case, I think Heckert being here gives us an advantage if the Eagles are in fact looking to move up. This draft is very deep; the more picks, the better.
Just my opinion, but 24 might be the perfect spot to get a guy like Odrick, who could play a DE spot in out 3-4, a position that is very hard to fill.
Honestly there are about 10 players I can think of that could be there at 24 that I would love to have:
Iupati, Graham, Wilson, Clausen (I really do think he is going to drop), Odrick, Jackson, Price, Pouncey, McCoy and I am sure I am leaving some out.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t see him getting past the Bills and the Raiders.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
I tend to think that 20th-40th are the best picks in the draft. There are almost guaranteed to be guys who are falling to you, and the $ is better than high in the first. Not a whole lot of pressure, good tradability.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
You guys have plenty of picks right now...maybe too many
It is very difficult to integrate more than 6-8 rookies into a squad in one year. I would take Baluga (sp?) and solidify your Oline. Take Tebow in the 2nd and let him sit and learn for a year. You still have a lot of chances to get several very good picks and let them get a year under their belt. I am not counting you out as anything can happen but I would look for quality, integrate that quality and add some more next draft. This year is a learning year with a .500 being probably the upper limit. Then next year the Browns and Bengals can push these out of state AFCN teams into the cellar where they have kept us for the last decade. Wouldn’t you guys love to see a Browns/Bengals AFC Champoinship game in 2011? You may not believe this but I am rooting for you guys to join us so we Ohio teams can regain our former Kosar/Anderson rivalry.
"Coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous"
Umm…why are the fanposts and fanshots on the front page suddenly located all the way at the bottom? They should be on the right side.
Because for some reason when I post stories the entire page goes to hell.
I think it has something to do with the layout of my articles.
Long story short, because I am dumb.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Off-topic…Brandon Spikes and Colt McCoy are going to be the steals in the draft I guarantee both of them have great careers and will be 2nd or 3rd rounders. Whichever team drafts either or both will be very pleased. I hope its the Browns but I guarantee the Pats draft one of them.
as long as you guarantee it.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Apr 19, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sold on Spikes, but I guess until we actually see him play in the NFL, no one can really say that he has no chance. There are a good 7-10 DE/LB to fill a LB for us that I would rather see the Browns draft.
Spikes would almost definitely play ILB for us, which would be an odd transition for a DE/OLB to make. Why would you take a DE/OLB to play ILB?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
For his fluid hips and optimal gut-to-butt ratio.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Apr 20, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I realize that, but the fact is we need OLB and ILB, and this being the case, there are quite a few guys I would take before him for the LB position in general.
If Spikes is there in the third we should run the card up.
This is a classic example of NFL people out thinking themselves. Dude can play. They say he can’t play three downs. Big deal, how often do we have two ILB’s on the field on third down anyways? If DQ is still here after the draft, a big if IMO, then Spikes would be a great fit next to him.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 20, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Assuming we hang on to all 3 third rounders I wouldn’t have a problem drafting him there. I’m going to coninue to hope we can land Sean Lee though. I realize some think he wouldn’t fit our system, but he’s got a nose for the ball, and is consistently making plays.
I have little to no interest in Sean Lee. Never jumps off the tape mixed with injury concerns? Pass.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 20, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s probably because I’m a PSU fan, but he has great football IQ, and plays with everything he’s got, every play. After watching him throughout his college career, I feel like with his work ethic, he’d be able to adapt to do whatever is asked of him in the NFL. Again, just my opinion, which is a biased one.
How long can we continue to trade down and so we need impact players and/or a franchise QB? Take Berry – end of story. When we stayed at 3 for JT – worked out.
Yeah because it made sense to get him then. With so many needs in a draft as deep as this one is, we can move back and still get a guy that can make an immediate impact, plus we would have more picks.
3 second rounders!? That’s gold right there!
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m gonna advocate that we trade down, and for two reasons:
1) Earl Thomas (if he’s availble)
2) Kurt Coleman (the 4-5 rd projection returns to the discussion!)
What’s the story with Taylor Mays then. I don’t see him going in the first round, personally. Would you guys be unhappy if we picked him up in the second?
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Hell yes.
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I posted this assuming we trade back, meaning we would have multiple second round picks. So he wouldn’t be the only pick in the second round. I haven’t looked into him too much, but he is a freakish athlete. What is it that makes him too risky to pick up there?
The fact that he still can’t do what we need our safties to do: Play in coverage.
All the knocks on Mays has been his “stiff hips” and his inability to play coverage like a solid DB. He’s basically a younger version of Roy Williams (formerly of the Cowboys and Bengals). I’d rather take Kurt Coleman in the fourth or fifth, because at least he was making all kinds of plays in coverage.
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
this.
Roy Williams might have had a little better instincts coming out actually and more big play ability. However, Mays has the H/W/S to surpass Williams. I am not 100% sure if his style of play and abilities are best served at the safety position.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Those aren’t all the knocks. There are more.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yes, but those are the ones I could remember off the top of my head. Please, add more so as to cement the “No Mays” policy.
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 20, 2010 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, besides what you mentioned about the “stiff hips” it’s also been said that he doesn’t have the the instincts. It’s been said time and again about two guys in particular who are incredible athletes but their production has never matched their athleticism. One is Bruce Campbell and the other is Mays. They’’ll both be overdrafted on athleticism alone.
I second the “No Mays” policy.
The Drive, the Fumble, the Shot, the Meltdown...still hopefull.
Lack of instincts is one; a guy that athletic at that size should be making lots of plays. Mays just doesn’t make them at the rate that you’d expect from a guy that physically talented.
In addition to potential physical limitations in coverage against NFL WRs (hips), Mays doesn’t seem that great at the technical aspects of actually covering anyone. I’d also question his ball skills.
Those are my personal observations, but I believe I share them with a lot of “experts”.
At some point Mays would become worth drafting if he were still available, but I think that point is past our pick in the 2nd round.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
if we traded back into the 20s i would not be disappointed.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Apr 19, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he could be a great player…just not in our system. I can see him being a pro bowl SLB in a Tampa 2 defense where he can play a medium zone and use his speed to react to running plays on the outside and play coverage.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Taylor Mays? A LB? I don’t think so, again just because he looks the part doesn’t mean he can transition. S to LB is a bit of a stretch, but that’s only my opinion.
He really isn’t much of a safety…his play on the field is more like a linebacker anyways. in a cover 2, he would be able to use his speed to kinda “freelance” in his desired “zone”. He would be a great fit for the Tampa 2 in Indy because they have a lot of smaller, quicker LBs in their Tampa 2. He isn’t that small either for their linebackers. He is pretty huge for a safety.
Really, he has a safety’s measurables (speed, jumping ability, etc…) with a Linebacker’s body and style of play. People rave about how he is terrible in coverage. this is not completely true. He is terrible in Man Coverage but he is adequate in Zone coverage where he can react to the throw and use his superior speed to make a play on the ball.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Ok, so just because he plays safety in an aggressive way means he would be a better LB? You’re assessment that he would be better as a LB, in any system is a bit of a stretch.
I am not saying he would play a better LB than safety in any system, I specifically say
He would be a great fit for the Tampa 2
I personally don’t think he really fits here, but he could. He would not fit in a 3-4 really as a LB which I did say below. Please don’t put words into my mouth that I said he could play SLB in any system. I specifically said a Tampa 2 system b/c it could emphasize his strengths.
He could also work in cincinnati as a safety b/c in Mike Zimmer’s D, he has been able to effectively mask some of the weaknesses of Roy L. Williams. Mays is compared a lot to Roy Williams. However, he is bigger, which means he is more likely to transfer to OLB smoothly.
he plays the run as good as some linebackers but severely is lacking instincts to play man, and is very succeptible as a Safety to the PA. However, for an OLB, his skills at man coverage are average. He also has great speed for an SLB and has good range for an OLB. In a Tampa 2, he’d be asked to play zone and react to the throw, which suits him better.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
you have dared to invoke the power of Bross09
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
by Kimble_79 on Apr 20, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and I disagree with you. Indy likes undersized faster OLBs for their Tampa 2. granted they almost never draft an OLB high but he DOES fit what they look for in an OLB. He could be like Cato June for them but even better. June was a pro bowl OLB…he also happened to play safety in college.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=59478&draftyear=2003&genpos=SS
and the same website also lists OLB as a secondary position for Mays.
If Mays isn’t a good fit, Cato June certainly isn’t. the problem is he was an all pro Linebacker in Indy.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
you should use that picture for your screen pic over to the right
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
Its not that they like them undersized, its that they place the emphasis on athleticism, and because of that a lot of other teams pass on guys they like.
Subtle, but it makes a difference.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
LB to S is way more reasonable. The other way around is a rare occasion.
If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, you own it. If it doesn’t, you don’t own it. And if it doesn’t, you’re an asshole. Just like you.
by Brownie's Year on Apr 19, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I seem to remember someone asking if Maiava could do that on a post-game talk show. That’s not my suggestion, I’m just saying.
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I honestly cannot remember the last player to do that.
Then again, I can’t remember a college safety with Taylor Mays size.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 20, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I never said that either switch was illogical.
Mays is a big boy. He could be that "rare occasion".
If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, you own it. If it doesn’t, you don’t own it. And if it doesn’t, you’re an asshole. Just like you.
by Brownie's Year on Apr 20, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
If we were a 4-3 team I wouldn’t mind drafting him in the second and converting him into an SLB. Honestly, I think that is the best possible option for his career. He could be a dominant SLB in a cover 2. His problem in coverage truly is man coverage. he can’t play man coverage to save his life. However, he is decent in a zone where he can react to the throw and use his speed to get in position to make a play. at over 230 pounds (and reportedly close to 240) he could be dominant from the position…however he really doesn’t fit a 3-4 defense at all IMO.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
KC is interesting. he is not a high upside guy but he is a guy who is experienced and polished and can step in right away. with his style of play and skills he reminds me a bit of Mike Adams. However, I believe he has better physical skills than adams does and he also is more polished of a player coming out than adams was. while I don’t think he will ever be a star, he is the kind of midround gem that you can plug into a starting job right away and he can be a very solid player for several years.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
You can only have so many players on the final roster. Draft quality, we still have tons of late round picks. Take Berry, Clausen, or Bulaga and I don’t think you do anything but get better. Clausen is a much better prospect than McCoy
by HenryDawg on Apr 19, 2010 6:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
If we were able to do the trade, we would have ammo to trade into next years draft, or back into the first round as well.
Just because we have 10 picks, doesn’t mean we will pick 10 times. I would trade a second rounder for a next years first rounder 100 out of 100 times.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 19, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Berry at 7. If he isn’t there the ideal scenario would be a trade down but I don’t think it’s as easy as people make it out to be. If the Eagles trade up with the Chiefs then who would we trade down with? In that case I’ll just take Earl Thomas.
Packers are looking to move. Also, I don’t know that Philly makes the leap to #5, they’d probably be more likely to move forward for Earl Thomas. Hopefully Heckert can work some magic and get us in on something with them.
The Packers are looking for an OT aren’t they? They could trade up, but I don’t think they’d reach up all the way to us. Do they have the picks? They have one pick in each of the first 4 rounds. Unless they wanna send Charles Woodson over (yeah right) they don’t have much.
I’m not tryna instigate anything. I’m just trying to think of teams that might want up.
I’ve been thinking, what if Bradford, Suh, McCoy, Okung, and Berry are gone by the time it gets to us? That would leave maybe four players as trade-up targets for other teams: T. Williams, Bulaga, McClain, and/or Clausen. Teams probably wouldn’t have to trade up all the way to us to get Thomas, Spiller, Dan Williams, etc. (Unless we are considering them).
For the moment, I was just looking at teams in the top half of the 1st. The Bills might want to trade up for Clausen if they think the Raiders will take him, or if they think we will take him if we can’t trade down. (In this case, our preferences would be 1 Trade down or 2 Take Clausen). The Jaguars, if they like Clausen, might want to trade up for him to get ahead of the Bills. The Broncos might want to trade up to take McClain, perhaps to get ahead of the Dolphins, or if they think we will take McClain. The Giants might want to get ahead of the Broncos to take McClain. The Seahawks might want to trade up if they have their eyes on Clausen or a tackle who they think will be gone by 14. The Niners might want to trade up for one of the tackles, to get ahead of Oakland and Buffalo.
The Niners and Seahawks each have two first-round picks and a second-rounder, and the Broncos have the recently acquired second round pick for Marshall. So they might have the resources to feel comfortable trading up.
I’m not going out on a limb to predict anything, but these are just possibilities.
I would love to see us pick up Myron Rolle late 2nd/3rd. We have a lot of middle round picks already and there will be fine players there for us. We completely screwed up Quinn’s development. We really should let the new regime try to properly develop Claussen with the 7th pick. Watching him play last year the guy is tough and the Browns could use his attitude.
by HenryDawg on Apr 19, 2010 7:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Did you see him on ESPN today?
He was wearing an ascot tie. I know it means absolutely nothing, but I don’t want my football players wearing an ascot tie.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 20, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe he could play football for Aston Villa.
"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags
by woodsmeister on Apr 20, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I would much rather trade doen and get Kyle Wilson later in the first round. I just think the difference between the two isn’t enough to take him at 7 and Kyle Wilson falls somewhere in the teens or possibly 20’s. If no one wants to trade at 7 though Berry is by far the best option.
He is a very solid CB and has proven he can get the job done. Sure he is getting up there in age, but he can still perform at a high level for another 3-4 years in my opinion. We have much bigger needs than CB this year.
Take the CB if he’s a good enough player. Why pass on talent when talent is there? Nickel CB is a need right now, and we’ll need a #1/#2 in a few years. Why pass on BPA to avoid taking a CB?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Valid point, but I’m not so sure Kyle Wilson will be the best available player at that point in the draft.
I’ve read a lot of articles about him climbing up the board lately. But then again, what can you believe right before draft day.
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
Anything I read after April 1st I consider to be probably false.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 20, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve read some places that he might actually be the first CB taken
by The Licensed Pessimist on Apr 20, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with BPA but this started with someone implying that they advocate trading down Specifically for Kyle Wilson.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
He isn’t the answer to our problems 5 years from now…
However, he is an excellent corner to start opposite Wright. I am very high on Wilson as a prospect, however, I don’t think he is even a guarantee to start at CB. Brown is a very good veteran QB and will have a good shot at beating out wilson in camp. Holmgren wants our first round pick to have an impact, however he isn’t going to bench Brown just so wilson can get on the field.
We eventually need to get a CB but maybe in the 2nd or 3rd rounds where we can get a guy that might take a year to develop into a #2 corner but has a lot of upside.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Unless you get him now and rotate him in as a nickel back so that he’s ready to play at a starting level once Brown goes down w/ an injury or has a talent drop off.
Honestly, if either of our starting CB’s go down, we’re back to Mc D and Mike Adams. Who wants THAT!?
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 19, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I would not hate it if we have Adams as a nickel.
I think we should get someone in this draft for CB just not someone in the FIRST ROUND.
I agree with getting a guy and playing him as a nickel back. However, you can get a guy who can be an adequate nickel in the third round. A guy like a Domonique Franks (who could drop to us), Javier Arenas, Pat Robinson, or Amari Speivey. If any of these guys have to start a few games next year, I would not be worried honestly. they are more than adequate nickels.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Berry not draftable
I agree with Bernie. I think it would not kill us to take Berry, but if teams want to move up and there are, the Browns could fill so many more needs with extra draft picks. The Browns need an off the radar pick in the top five selections and then they will be sitting pretty. Lets say Dez Bryant or Clausen get drafted in the top 5, it would give the Browns’ pick at #7 so much more value and teams willing to trade to get the player they truly think they need. The Browns need so much , they could trade down again and again and still add much needed value while acquiring more needed draft picks.
Bernie, good analysis, I agree wholeheartedly. I wil say I will not be disappointed if we take Berry, though.
Theonly mistake is HADEN from Florida. Not what we should use the #7 pick.
I still like McClain from Alabama
I definitely would make the trade
24th – Jared Odrick
37th – Nate Allen
38th – Colt McCoy
55th – Dexter McCluster
71st – John Jerry
85th – Jordan Shipley
Samingro14.TRADE
I would be extremely happy about a trade down, if we could get the players that Samingro814 suggests that we could get.I think Shipley would be a great pick if we draft McCoy,the chemistry is already there,and would probably help McCoy’s confidence too.Allen I think would give us some good help at DB,Jerry could help out ol right side,McCluster another playmaker,or maybe use that pick on someone like Anthony Dixon,for a powerback.Just some thoughts from a devoted Browns fan,but I am by far no expert.GO BROWNS.I am really excited about this draft,I really hope it works out for them as a team,and for us,there great fans.
Regarding Eric Berry, I think we have a not insignificant talent at strong safety already in Abe Elam. I also think that if he was commited to playing the position with a vengance, Eric Wright would do great. Would it be a brilliant idea to use Eric Berry as a free safety?
The Tennessee football site lists him as DB. The wiki, lists him as a strong safety. NFL.com lists him as a strong safety. cbssports.com lists him as a free safety. Walter football lists him as safety, simply, so does espn.com. USA Today touts him as a DB, who prefers playing safety. nfldraftscoutl.com 2010 lists him as the top free safety.
This guy´s invited to Radio City Music Hall, and he´s not even properly designated for where he should play. This is the most highly decorated Joker card in a long time.
I agree. If wikipedia and cbssports.com can’t agree on a contextually arbitrary designation, then we shouldn’t draft the guy.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
by danvail on Apr 20, 2010 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
but wikipedia is infallible! they must be right!
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Apr 20, 2010 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Stay on target….
Staaay on TAR-GET!!
It would seem to me, that you feel threatened by the Eric Ghiaciuc acquisition.
by johnnyphoenix on Apr 20, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Instead of asking mooncamping why, ask yourself why not.
by Roger Dorn on Apr 20, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
AG7 is officially indoctrined into the site! Huzzah!
by BrownDawg1409 on Apr 20, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Why ask why?
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
Do they still make that? I haven’t seen those commercials in years.
by Buckeye Brad on Apr 21, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
flag for using a squeeler as a measuring stick.
by Dawg Nuts on Apr 21, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Uh-oh . . . moon figured out how to post pictures. Prepare for a detailed breakdown of Hank Fraley’s buttocks.
by Buckeye Brad on Apr 21, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
? He already has. They were detailed pictures of Mack’s ass. He’s been posting pics for over half a year man
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Apr 21, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
If I was looking at an ass getting fatter it would have been Eric Steinbach, so we can move him to center.
by mooncamping on Apr 22, 2010 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Leader
I understand the point of this article is to play the devils advocate but one of the biggest things I think people are still overlooking for all that is great about Eric Berry is his leadership and more importantly his attitude. He is confident, nearly to the line of being cocky, but defenses need to have an attitude and something like that is contageous. I think he has the ability and attitude that will resonate through our defense and make everyone better.
Not taking anything away from Thomas mind you, from what I have seen Berry ahs wahat it takes to be a defensive leader, something in my opinion the Browns sorely lack.
In my humble opinion if hes not there at 7, trade down.
Well said. I’d say most people here agree with this take, especially judging from our big board.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
I’m on the fence with this one. If the eagles would offer us what was cited in our mock example above, I’m not sure what I would do. I agree completely with Sudsy above, however all those picks in this deep of a draft is rather tempting.
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
Well in that hypothetical, it is tempting. As I posted above, I think for me it would come down to how good I feel about McCoy and whether I can get him in the second. If I like him and I don’t think he’ll be around past Minnesota, I trade down and reload around him.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
Yes, the possibility of filling our holes with that many picks would be too overwhelming I think for me. I agree with you, reload around Colt if this would play out and start from there.
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
Right, but if you’re reasonably sure he’ll be there at 39 I’d take Berry and McCoy. Or, if you aren’t that high on McCoy, you take the elite prospect and go from there.
Actively seeking inspiration for a new handle
i think there are more reasons to pass on taking berry at #7 besides the potential bust factor:
1) the money you have tied up that can’t go elsewhere
2) no guarantee that the W-L record will improve – sean taylor was the only non-bust – and the redskins went 24-38 with him until he got shot – even ed reed’s impact (drafted in the 20’s) was negligible – the ravens went 50-46 until they drafted flacco;
3) the injury factor – even if a safety does become an impact player such as polamalu – he’s missed 19 games in the last four seasons – and it’s not just him – reed, sanders and polamalu have missed 79 games in 21 combined seasons – arguably the three best safeties in the league;
4) the well run teams aren’t the ones drafting safeties in the top ten: oakland, buffalo, washington (twice) and dallas (jerry jones’ meddling) – while reed didn’t go ‘til the 20’s.
if berry (or thomas) were available in the late teen’s and we could trade to draft there – i’d be much more ok with that kind of scenario
Your third point is really a good one.
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 21, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Taylor Mays better than Berry. He would be a physical force in the backfield. He would have the opposing WRs having to think about getting smacked down every play. I also think his bigger frame would be more resilient. And he still has good speed. We should be able to get him lower in the draft also… a trade down to get him (or a possibly a trade up from the 2nd round) is a real possibility.
You can be taught to be better in coverage, to have a better sense of where the ball is going, etc. but you can’t be “taught” to be 6’3" and 230 lbs when you are 5’10" and 200. I think Mays deserves serious consideration and is currently being undervalued. To me, Berry’s big claim to fame is interceptions. This is a decisive football event but it is also relatively rare vs something like a bone-jarring tackle while you are trying to receive the ball in the air. I saw some highlights in which Berry gets pulverized by a big back. Didn’t see anything like that with Mays. I think Browns fans will like him… a lot.
Brownsyup
? I still think Mays is overvalued.
The man is terrible at slot coverage and coverage is much harder to teach than you think. He also is a bad tackler. Bad tackling is almost impossible to grow out of, especially at the NFL level.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Apr 21, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Berry is just under 6’ and 212, not 5’10" and 200—not that it makes a huge difference. Have you seen the kid hit people? You can’t be taught to cover the MOF like Berry can cover it.
Berry can cover WRs, TEs, and Backs up to Brandon Jacobs’ size. He can cover any underneath zone. He can cover any deep part of the field you want. He can come up and play in the box. He can rush the QB. He can find and high point the ball. He’s fluid, he’s fast, he’s got a good burst. Being huge doesn’t mean you can do any of that. What good is being 6’3" if you aren’t making pass deflections high in the air? Berry is just far and away the more skilled player.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Thomas is a close second to Berry. Mays is a distant 3rd.
But it depends on the current makeup of your secondary. If you are looking for a hard hitting run stopper then Mays is your man. People here in Cincy are talking up Mays but I would take Thomas over Mays in a second. Of course I would prefer Berry but he will be long gone before we will have any chance at him. Thomas could possibly be there at #21- maybe. It could be that we will end up with Mays but I hope not. I don’t see any reason to take the 3rd best player at any position in the first round.
"Coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous"
Your response interested me so I did some investigation
The result was that, yes he is clearly a more balanced safety. The report said he was a hard worker with good instincts and ball skills and is smart. He will probably be a good player. His negatives were that his max speed is only average, he struggles in man coverage, isn’t a big hitter and isn’t very quick or explosive. They, Draft Countdown, project him as a starter but they rank him lower than Mays. I think between the two we will chose Mays as Zimmer has said that it is easier to coach back agressivness than the other way around. I hope it doesn’t come to that and Thomas is still there as I rank him close to Berry. In fact I am not sure he isn’t a little better in coverage. Berry is still the first choice though. The only bad thing about having a good year is that a guy you really like has to run the gauntlet of 20 teams before you get a chance at him.Thanks bross09, Allen kind of flew under my radar.
"Coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous"
as Zimmer has said that it is easier to coach back agressivness than the other way around.
but Zimmer doesn’t coach on the browns. that is the thing. the browns predicate themselves on smart, instinctive players on Defense. guys who have a nose for the ball and good FBI (football intelligence) and instincts in coverage. however, Mays is severely lacking on his instincts on the field. he is not the type of pick that would fit our defensive style or our defense in general, although he would fit in Cincy.
yeah. allen is flying under a lot of people’s radars. he has enough physical skills to be good but not the elite skills that the other 3 have. he might not have the upside of mays, but because of what he brings to the table, in our defense he has a much better shot at being a solid player.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
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