Shall We Beat Dead Horse on Coach?
First of all, let me pass along my thanx to Chris P, Rufio, and Ryan K for this past week's posts on the Browns positional analysis. Great job gents - keep it coming!
Secondly, I would like to get a C-Town/DBN perspective on Coach Mangini. IMHO, I sort of like the decision by the Show to keep Eric. Primarily for one reason and one reason alone. How he kept the team focused during the last quarter of the season was beyond exceptional. To say it was against lousy teams (save Pitts) only strengthens the point. Eric accomplished what the other coaches could not.
But I do have one heartburn issue with Eric. Adding to my frustration, being away from the loacal area and the gag order between the Browns and Koko has left me wondering about the issue.
- Did Coach Mangini recommend Kokinis and then do everything in his power to undercut him and drive him out of the organization? Was it the classical power play? And if so, has any other coach in history every pulled the ploy so early in his career? And with a person he recommended?
- Or was Kokinis sort of over his head and Mangini have to do everything in his power to jump in and compensate? Was Mangini's guillt mostly with the recommendation?
While the truth generally lies in the middle. I want to force you to these 2 extremes in the attached poll. What is the general feeling inside the core local fans?
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Given the lack of solid information on what really went down with Kokinis, or even any decent gossip about it as far as I can tell, you might as well flip a coin to pick between these options.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jun 26, 2010 12:32 PM EDT reply actions
I’ve been thinking about this, and the lack of data is very interesting. Maybe it means that both sides feel it’s in their best interest to stay quiet, that they both share some blame and could come out looking worse if all the cards were on the table?
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jul 2, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there was a lawsuit, probably good for both sides to keep their mouths shut outside of that.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I believe all legal action was settled in February, see here:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/02/cleveland_browns_reach_settlem.html
Gag order aside, many times once these matters are legally closed we start hearing more leaked information from one side or another, or from ancillary parties not bound by the gag. Not so much here, though….
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jul 3, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that Kokinis wanted power in the organization and complete control of the roster—and the Browns probably led him on a little because this had to be in his contract to get him out of Baltimore.
When he got to Cleveland, he realized it wouldn’t be that way and was demoralized. He stopped working and got the boot. Mangini probably tried a little to work with him, but didn’t really reach out and try to give him full control of the roster.
Whatever happened, Holmgren is in town and the power structure is now clear: work together, work hard, and respect the Big Show. Or get out of town. Mangini has worked under big names/personalities before and has shown he can be a good coach. We should be fine with him in this role.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I will say, that at least publicly, Mangini has acted more like a team player with the new regime, than as someone interested in more influence. Now, his survival demands that, so I havent quite closed the case on Eric. If he continues to conduct himself this way, I have no problem bringing him back another season, even if we say are 6-10 or 7-9. If the product gets better, I am patient.
I agree mostly with this. I think Eric wanted a lot of say in player personnell acquisition and Kokinis became disenchanted with the amount of control he actually had.
I’d love to know which straw broke the camel’s back.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Jun 28, 2010 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I would find it really hard to believe mangini planned that out or anything. First of all, we have no reason to believe he’s a bad guy, with his emphasis on character in his players saying quite the opposite. second, at the time, he had just gotten fired. I really don’t think his ego is so huge that after getting fired he would set up a powerplay like that.
I think its far more likely that Kokinis couldn’t handle it, didn’t know what to do with himself, and mangini was forced to try and pick up the slack. That isn’t to say I think it definitely happened that way, it just seems more realistic.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
My vote is neither I think Lerner put the horse before the cart in picking Mangini without a GM. It was Lerner that hired Kokinis and set that stage. I have nothing against Lerner but he is the owner. It was Lerner that recognized his mistake an corrected it by getting Holgrem. Let’s see how they perform next year before we throw Eric under the buss
Ya must have rocks in ya head to work in Iraq?
Yeah but at least mine are shiny!
I tend to agree with NTN. Besides rumors and vague reporter comments, you really don’t know what happened. I would be led to think that what NTN is saying is right though. I don’t think Mangini wanted power or control, but was forced to take over those roles as the GM couldn’t/didn’t want to handle it.
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
I don’t think Mangini wanted power or control, but was forced to take over those roles as the GM couldn’t/didn’t want to handle it.
I tend to disagree.
I think Mangini wanted and thought there was an opportunity for complete control there coming in and for a while after Kokinis left. I think Kokinis was upset at his lack of role and that precipitated him leaving. Kokinis was supposed to be nod-nod-wink-wink ‘GM,’ but was supposed to basically just be a ‘yes’ man for Mangini. I mean, c’mon, while I think Mangini gets a bad rap in the league about his tyrannical style, there was no doubt coming in Mangini thought he knew what to do, and could do, everything…and he was plenty happy to have it pan out that way.
Really, what head coach, except through bitter previous experience, DOESN’T think he could do both..and BETTER?
Obviously, there was some serious miscommunication of intentions there as Kokinis actually came there to be GM, and when he left I think Mangini figured it was pretty much a given he was going to remain de facto coach/GM. I think he felt like he had Lerner in his back pocket and would accept this, and this probably isn’t a stretch on his part given Lerner’s fawning over Mangini and very quick hire. I think Mangini figured, like Jerry Maguire, he ‘had him at hello’…right after the interview this was going to be the ‘Mangini show.’
Kokinis obviously shares blame in this as he sure as hell must not have much damn personality, presence, or communication skills at all if this was even a possibility of being ‘misconstrued.’ However, given what actually transpired and what we all knew of Kokinis up to that point…..is that surprising in hindsight? The guy had about as much personality and presence as my basement doorknob, and I don’t have a basement.
As the season spiraled out of control and all the proverbial shit hit the fan, and essentially when Lerner laid the smack down, actually grew a pair, and announced he was finally fed up with the bullshit he was responsible for and that they were going to hire a ‘serious, credible’ leader, Mangini knew the Napoleon act was over if he wanted to keep his coaching job..so he was forced to accept whatever his role would be. At that point it became not if he was going to be GM/coach, but if he was even going to be here at all.
To his credit, and I definitely think he deserved another shot, he accepted this role willingly (although let’s be honest, what choice did he really have, he wasn’t going anywhere else to be a head coach in the NFL for a loong time if he left). Bottom line though, I think Mangini learned a lot through all this, and I think he will become a much, much better leader and coach from all this….and in this environment. Which is good, because when he’s good the browns have a better chance to be good, which makes us all feel good.
by johnnyphoenix on Jul 2, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
The 2009 Season
01. Lerner wants Holmgren.
02. Holmgren wants to take a year off before doing anything.
03. Lerner needs someone to run the team for a year.
04. Mangini is available, has ties to the Browns, and is hated by almost everyone.
05. No one will complain if Mangini is canned in a year.
06. Mangini is hired.
07. Mangini needs a GM.
08. The short list is full of people who hate him.
09. George Kokinis doesn’t hate him (yet).
10. George Kokinis is hired.
11. Kokinis thinks he’s the GM.
12. Mangini thinks different.
13. The coaching staff backs Mangini.
14. Mangini’s scouts and front office people back Mangini.
15. Kokinis is on an island.
16. Kokinis hates Mangini.
17. Kokinis folds; spends a lot of time on myspace.
18. The Browns stink.
19. Quinn fails.
20. Anderson fails.
21. The Browns really stink.
22. Dawg Pound Mike gets his panties in a twist.
23. Randy Lerner gets his panties in a twist.
24. Randy tells Holmgren ’It’s now or never’.
25. Holmgren says ‘yes, but not until the season is over’.
26. The restroom revolt fails.
27. Dawg Pound Mike gets pelted with bones and beer.
28. The Browns abandon the pass.
29. The players buy in.
30. The Browns start to win.
31. The Browns end the season with the longest win streak in the league.
32. Holmgren takes over.
33. Holmgren asks all of the tough questions.
34. Holmgren is satisfied with Mangini’s answers.
35. Mangini is retained.
36. Bud Shaw weeps.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Jul 2, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I think 27 is my favorite part.
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Jul 2, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I still don’t understand the hate for DPM.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 2, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Next thread: “Shall We Beat a Dead Horse on Dog Pound Mike?”
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jul 3, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
He has no right to speak for every Browns fan. He doesn’t understand what we need or want. And Lerner should have never taken counsel with him.
This is why he is hated.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Jul 4, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I guess this is where I disagree. I was never under the feeling that DPM was speaking for me or the Browns fan base.
I still don’t see a problem with what he did. If Randy Lerner asked you what to do with the Browns you telling me you wouldn’t have taken the opportunity?
by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 5, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference is that I wouldn’t make it a news story, I wouldn’t use the media as a means of getting the interview.
You would probably sound a lot more logical and intelligent than he did as well.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Though I’d like to think that Dorn would follow Mike’s lead and wear a giant foam rubber bone on his head.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Jul 5, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I was never under the feeling that DPM was speaking for me or the Browns fan base.
Whether or not you were under that feeling, that’s the way the media portrayed it.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jul 6, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
But that is an ESPN/SI/Fox problem, not a DPM problem.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 6, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
He allowed it to be portrayed that way, didn’t he? Never tried to personally speak with the media or see if Browns personnel could clear his status. I’m sure he knew what type of media he’d attract doing this and then leading a restroom revolt.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Jul 6, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
but he wanted it that way. he thought he spoke for browns fans everywhere.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jul 7, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Did 27 really happen? If so, perfect.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Jul 4, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m just curious how long it took you to write out that awesome list? It’s simple, but definitely looks like it still required a bit of organizing/creativity.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Jul 6, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions

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