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Shall We Beat Dead Horse on Coach?



First of all, let me pass along my thanx  to Chris P, Rufio, and Ryan K for this past week's posts on the Browns positional analysis.  Great job gents - keep it coming!

 

Secondly, I would like to get a C-Town/DBN perspective on Coach Mangini.    IMHO, I sort of like the decision by the Show to keep Eric.  Primarily for one reason and one reason alone.  How he kept the team focused during the last quarter of the season was beyond exceptional.  To say it was against lousy teams (save Pitts) only strengthens the point.  Eric accomplished what the other coaches could not.

But I do have one heartburn issue with Eric.  Adding to my frustration, being away from the loacal area and the gag order between the Browns and Koko has left me wondering about the issue.  

  1. Did Coach Mangini recommend Kokinis and then do everything in his power to undercut him and drive him out of the organization?  Was it the classical power play?  And if so, has any other coach in history every pulled the ploy so early in his career?  And with a person he recommended?
  2. Or was Kokinis sort of over his head and Mangini have to do everything in his power to jump in and compensate?  Was Mangini's guillt mostly with the recommendation?

While the truth generally lies in the middle.  I want to force you to these 2 extremes in the attached poll.   What is the general feeling inside the core local fans?

Poll
What was Eric Mangin's role in the strange hiring and firing of Kokinis?
Primarily a bad recommendation. Kokinis was over his head.
82 votes
A real sleazeball power play. Eric has blood on his hands.
18 votes

100 votes | Poll has closed

This is a fan-created post. Dawgs By Nature assumes no responsibility for the content listed.

0 recs  |  Comment 40 comments |

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Given the lack of solid information on what really went down with Kokinis, or even any decent gossip about it as far as I can tell, you might as well flip a coin to pick between these options.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jun 26, 2010 12:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Isn’t odd that this is the first gag order that really worked?

by realmccoy on Jun 26, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve been thinking about this, and the lack of data is very interesting. Maybe it means that both sides feel it’s in their best interest to stay quiet, that they both share some blame and could come out looking worse if all the cards were on the table?

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jul 2, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think there was a lawsuit, probably good for both sides to keep their mouths shut outside of that.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Jul 3, 2010 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I believe all legal action was settled in February, see here:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/02/cleveland_browns_reach_settlem.html

Gag order aside, many times once these matters are legally closed we start hearing more leaked information from one side or another, or from ancillary parties not bound by the gag. Not so much here, though….

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jul 3, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe because the lawsuit shut everyone up and they are ok with just letting it all pass.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Jul 3, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry. We reserved that move for choosing the starting QB.

by JustBob on Jul 7, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that Kokinis wanted power in the organization and complete control of the roster—and the Browns probably led him on a little because this had to be in his contract to get him out of Baltimore.

When he got to Cleveland, he realized it wouldn’t be that way and was demoralized. He stopped working and got the boot. Mangini probably tried a little to work with him, but didn’t really reach out and try to give him full control of the roster.

Whatever happened, Holmgren is in town and the power structure is now clear: work together, work hard, and respect the Big Show. Or get out of town. Mangini has worked under big names/personalities before and has shown he can be a good coach. We should be fine with him in this role.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Jun 26, 2010 5:24 PM EDT reply actions  

I will say, that at least publicly, Mangini has acted more like a team player with the new regime, than as someone interested in more influence. Now, his survival demands that, so I havent quite closed the case on Eric. If he continues to conduct himself this way, I have no problem bringing him back another season, even if we say are 6-10 or 7-9. If the product gets better, I am patient.

by realmccoy on Jun 27, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree mostly with this. I think Eric wanted a lot of say in player personnell acquisition and Kokinis became disenchanted with the amount of control he actually had.

by Roger Dorn on Jun 27, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d love to know which straw broke the camel’s back.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jun 28, 2010 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would find it really hard to believe mangini planned that out or anything. First of all, we have no reason to believe he’s a bad guy, with his emphasis on character in his players saying quite the opposite. second, at the time, he had just gotten fired. I really don’t think his ego is so huge that after getting fired he would set up a powerplay like that.

I think its far more likely that Kokinis couldn’t handle it, didn’t know what to do with himself, and mangini was forced to try and pick up the slack. That isn’t to say I think it definitely happened that way, it just seems more realistic.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Jun 27, 2010 7:02 PM EDT reply actions  

My vote is neither I think Lerner put the horse before the cart in picking Mangini without a GM. It was Lerner that hired Kokinis and set that stage. I have nothing against Lerner but he is the owner. It was Lerner that recognized his mistake an corrected it by getting Holgrem. Let’s see how they perform next year before we throw Eric under the buss

Ya must have rocks in ya head to work in Iraq?
Yeah but at least mine are shiny!

by Suppa Bob on Jun 28, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

houckgreen>kotkunias

by Dawg Nuts on Jun 30, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree with NTN. Besides rumors and vague reporter comments, you really don’t know what happened. I would be led to think that what NTN is saying is right though. I don’t think Mangini wanted power or control, but was forced to take over those roles as the GM couldn’t/didn’t want to handle it.

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Jun 29, 2010 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think Mangini wanted power or control, but was forced to take over those roles as the GM couldn’t/didn’t want to handle it.

I tend to disagree.
 

I think Mangini wanted and thought there was an opportunity for complete control there coming in and for a while after Kokinis left. I think Kokinis was upset at his lack of role and that precipitated him leaving. Kokinis was supposed to be nod-nod-wink-wink ‘GM,’ but was supposed to basically just be a ‘yes’ man for Mangini. I mean, c’mon, while I think Mangini gets a bad rap in the league about his tyrannical style, there was no doubt coming in Mangini thought he knew what to do, and could do, everything…and he was plenty happy to have it pan out that way.

Really, what head coach, except through bitter previous experience, DOESN’T think he could do both..and BETTER?

Obviously, there was some serious miscommunication of intentions there as Kokinis actually came there to be GM, and when he left I think Mangini figured it was pretty much a given he was going to remain de facto coach/GM. I think he felt like he had Lerner in his back pocket and would accept this, and this probably isn’t a stretch on his part given Lerner’s fawning over Mangini and very quick hire. I think Mangini figured, like Jerry Maguire, he ‘had him at hello’…right after the interview this was going to be the ‘Mangini show.’

Kokinis obviously shares blame in this as he sure as hell must not have much damn personality, presence, or communication skills at all if this was even a possibility of being ‘misconstrued.’ However, given what actually transpired and what we all knew of Kokinis up to that point…..is that surprising in hindsight? The guy had about as much personality and presence as my basement doorknob, and I don’t have a basement.

As the season spiraled out of control and all the proverbial shit hit the fan, and essentially when Lerner laid the smack down, actually grew a pair, and announced he was finally fed up with the bullshit he was responsible for and that they were going to hire a ‘serious, credible’ leader, Mangini knew the Napoleon act was over if he wanted to keep his coaching job..so he was forced to accept whatever his role would be. At that point it became not if he was going to be GM/coach, but if he was even going to be here at all.

To his credit, and I definitely think he deserved another shot, he accepted this role willingly (although let’s be honest, what choice did he really have, he wasn’t going anywhere else to be a head coach in the NFL for a loong time if he left). Bottom line though, I think Mangini learned a lot through all this, and I think he will become a much, much better leader and coach from all this….and in this environment. Which is good, because when he’s good the browns have a better chance to be good, which makes us all feel good.

by johnnyphoenix on Jul 2, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good points, but this whole argument is very speculative. It would be interesting to hear or see a story leak on what actually transpired from an insider. I think it could go either way on this.

A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright

by Kimble_79 on Jul 2, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like to pretend the DPM thing never happened.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 2, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think 27 is my favorite part.

For the love of Joe Thomas.....

by North Coast Flea on Jul 2, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still don’t understand the hate for DPM.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 2, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Next thread: “Shall We Beat a Dead Horse on Dog Pound Mike?”

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jul 3, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

He has no right to speak for every Browns fan. He doesn’t understand what we need or want. And Lerner should have never taken counsel with him.

This is why he is hated.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Jul 4, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed. It also brings unwarranted attention from the media and every Browns fan is not typecasted by DPM’s feelings.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 5, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess this is where I disagree. I was never under the feeling that DPM was speaking for me or the Browns fan base.

I still don’t see a problem with what he did. If Randy Lerner asked you what to do with the Browns you telling me you wouldn’t have taken the opportunity?

by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 5, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

The difference is that I wouldn’t make it a news story, I wouldn’t use the media as a means of getting the interview.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 5, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

You would probably sound a lot more logical and intelligent than he did as well.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Jul 5, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was never under the feeling that DPM was speaking for me or the Browns fan base.

Whether or not you were under that feeling, that’s the way the media portrayed it.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Jul 6, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

But that is an ESPN/SI/Fox problem, not a DPM problem.

by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 6, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

He allowed it to be portrayed that way, didn’t he? Never tried to personally speak with the media or see if Browns personnel could clear his status. I’m sure he knew what type of media he’d attract doing this and then leading a restroom revolt.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Jul 6, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

but he wanted it that way. he thought he spoke for browns fans everywhere.

I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.

by notthatnoise on Jul 7, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Amen, and nicely done golan.

by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jul 3, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

You forgot 20.a. Quinn fails again and 20.b. Anderson fails again.

Couldn’t be happier and have laughed more at 36.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Jul 3, 2010 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did 27 really happen? If so, perfect.

"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."

by SpecialBrownie on Jul 4, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m just curious how long it took you to write out that awesome list? It’s simple, but definitely looks like it still required a bit of organizing/creativity.

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Jul 6, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fifteen minutes or so. Maybe a bit longer. I’ll go the extra mile to hang one on Bud Shaw.

Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.

by golanbatrac on Jul 6, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I love the biblical allusion in pt 36.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 6, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

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