Cleveland Browns Training Camp 2010: DL Preview, Part I (Shaun Rogers' Status Raises Questions)
It's time for Week 2 of our 2010 Cleveland Browns Training Camp Preview, and this week the theme is "down in the trenches," where we'll start with the defensive line. For those of you who were expecting the fullback preview last week, I decided to hold off on that and combine it with the tight end preview forthcoming at the end of next week.
Last year, the Browns started the season with a mix of Shaun Rogers, Robaire Smith, and Kenyon Coleman on the defensive line. Today, I'll preview the players in contention for the three starting roles in Rob Ryan's 3-4 defense. While this year's top three isn't drastically different from last year's top three, Rogers' status leads to some uncertainty on the line.
1. STARTING DEFENSIVE END - SHAUN ROGERS
Shaun Rogers (#92)
Height: 6-4
Weight: 350
Age: 31
Experience: 9 years
College: Texas
Note: Suffered a broken leg last year; might serve suspension to begin year
It's almost July, and we still don't know exactly what type of punishment the league will hand to Rogers after he mistakenly brought a loaded handgun to Cleveland Hopkins Airport in the offseason. Earlier in the year, the Plain Dealer's Tony Grossi mentioned that a suspension might only be for a game or two. All things considered, that shouldn't affect the chemistry of the unit too much.
The bigger question here is whether the team will actually go through with starting Rogers at the defensive end position this season as opposed to nose tackle. The switch would stem as a result of the emergence of Ahtyba Rubin. You can certainly make a case that the Browns' defense got a little better last year when Rubin took over for Rogers (broken leg), but when Rogers is on, he's one of the toughest linemen to guard in the NFL.
Despite going through two losing seasons with the Browns, I don't question his motivation. Since coming to Cleveland, I've never gotten the sense that Rogers started "mailing it in" as he reportedly used to do during his dismal days with the Detroit Lions. Here are two few brief reasons why a switch to defensive end could benefit the Browns:
- Rogers draws double teams, but he likes to penetrate into the opposing team's backfield. That's not necessarily what Ryan is looking for at nose tackle -- someone needs to stay there and clog the line. Rogers would have more flexibility at defensive end in trying to reach the backfield.
- The Browns didn't make any major upgrades on the line in free agency or in the draft, so this season it's about trying to get the best players on the field. Right now, the top two players on the line might be Rubin and Rogers. Rubin will only play nose tackle though, so if you keep Rogers at nose tackle, you're sort of limiting the team's potential.
We might start the season with Rogers on the suspension list, but he should be back early enough and in good shape to man one of the starting defensive end positions. In camp, I think it'd also be very interesting to see how our offensive tackles (or blocking tight ends) could handle a force like Rogers. Does it create more disruption for opposing teams, or is it the type of move that offenses are able to easily gameplan for?
At the end of last season, most of you were convinced that the Browns should go through with the transition. After 500+ votes, 90% of you voted that Rogers should play DE with Rubin being at NT.
Job Security: A+ (as a starter in general)
Player Quality: A
Final Roster Odds: 99%
2. STARTING NOSE TACKLE - AHTYBA RUBIN
Ahtyba Rubin (#71)
Height: 6-2
Weight: 330
Age: 23
Experience: 2 years
College: Iowa State
Note: Will he officially be named the new starting nose tackle?
At 23 years old, Rubin represents the only non-rookie youth of the defensive line that seems ready to start this year. Rubin started the team's final five games last year, and he did very well in a few of those games. It was in December last year that Terry Pluto pointed out the thought of having Rubin start at NT this year. After that, I think the possibility really started to gain traction:
In the past two games, the Browns have allowed 75 yards (Pittsburgh) and 91 yards (San Diego) on the ground, a dramatic change for a team that had been being run over for 155 yards per game. The Browns believe part of the reason is Ahtyba Rubin taking over at nose tackle for the injured Shaun Rogers. They've discovered that Rubin does a better job of clogging up the middle against the run. Rogers is the better pass rusher and far more athletic. Next season, this could lead to Rubin being in the middle of the 3-4 defense with Rogers as one of the ends.
Rubin might not be an elite nose tackle [yet], but I think we saw last year that our defense can get by with solid role-players and a well-executed gameplan. That's how guys like Matt Roth and Marcus Bernard were able to make some late-season noise. Neither of them are necessarily physical specimens, but they filled the team's need for a pass rusher. Rubin can clog the middle and can defend the interior running game. If Rogers is on the end and no longer has to worry about those tiresome duties, maybe he'll let go and have a monster year.
Job Security: C+
Player Quality: B-
Final Roster Odds: 100%
3. STARTING DEFENSIVE END - ROBAIRE SMITH
Robaire Smith (#98)
Height: 6-5
Weight: 310
Age: 32
Experience: 10 years
College: Michigan State
Note: Rebounded well from ACL injury prior to last season
When Eric Mangini acquired Kenyon Coleman last season, I feared that Robaire Smith would be demoted to backup duties since he was coming off of an ACL injury. In last year's training camp preview, I stated that "given the choice between a healthy Smith and Coleman in a competition, I would pick Smith in a landslide."
Smith went on to have a pretty good season, recording 1.5 sacks and 62 tackles. He never seemed to show any lingering effects from his surgery, and I can only hope that he's gotten stronger this offseason. It almost doesn't seem like this will already be Smith's fourth year with the team, probably due to the year he missed.
Despite having only 1.5 sacks last year, I really felt that Smith played a significant role in the improvement of the team's defense toward the end of the season. He seemed to "buy into the system" and excelled in the pass-rushing department. Regarding the two starting defensive end positions, you could probably go as far as saying that Smith is more of a lock to start at DE than Rogers is, since there's a chance Rogers could remain at NT.
Job Security: A-
Player Quality: B-
Final Roster Odds: 100%
4. POTENTIAL STARTING DEFENSIVE END - KENYON COLEMAN
Kenyon Coleman (#90)
Height: 6-5
Weight: 295
Age: 31
Experience: 8 years
College: UCLA
Note: Production dropped off last season from time with Jets, good backup.
Coleman had a few shining moments here and there last year, but I never really got the sense that he was the right fit to be in the starting lineup. His season was cut short by a knee injury, and in 13 games he recorded 38 tackles and 1.5 sacks.
Coleman remains a candidate to be in the starting lineup for two reasons, both of which depend upon Rogers:
- If Rogers is suspended, Coleman fills in as starting DE.
- If Rogers stays at NT, Coleman is the starting DE.
I think we'll have to accept the first scenario, but I really hope the team is innovative so the second one doesn't have to come to fruition. While Coleman might not be the best fit as a starter, he seems like another savvy veteran who won't let his ego get in the way of his playing time. The tandem of Coleman and C.J. Mosley worked out for Mangini when he was with the Jets, and last year with the Browns I saw enough to believe the pair could be a stable force in substitution again. Combine them with some of the youngsters on our roster (coming up in Part II of the preview), and perhaps the DL won't be as gloomy as it's been in the past.
Player Quality: C+
Final Roster Odds: 90%
DT Position Quality: C (Starters/Contenders Only)
NOTE: Tomorrow I will have Part 2 of the defensive line preview, where depth players Kwaku Danso, Clifton Geathers, Keith Grennan, C.J. Mosley, Derreck Robinson, Brian Robinson, and Brian Schaefering will be covered.
Year after year, I tend to overestimate the potential of the defensive line. The Browns have had difficulty finding a group of players that can even come close to matching the issues that division rivals Pittsburgh Steelers and Baltimore Ravens present to opponents. Looking at the tandem of Rogers, Rubin, and Smith, I'm fine with that group of players heading into the season, but will the group be anything more than average? Will they plug the line enough to prevent opposing running backs from continuing to run all over our defense? Lastly, can the unit make it together through an entire season without succumbing to injury?
My "C" grade might not make sense considering that on an individual level, none of the starters above received a grade below C+. While I like the skills that some of the players possess on an individual level, I'm still not convinced the group can perform together at a high level compared to other NFL teams. After all, Rogers, arguably one of the best in the game, has been on our team for several years now and it still hasn't made our front seven respectable enough.
0 recs |
61 comments
|
Comments
Make sure you mention these potential practice squad candidates:
Clifton Geathers (6th rounder, fighting in mini-camp, and bulldozed Jon Thoma during a blocking pad drill)
Kwaku Danso (cinderella story that had been getting reps as the second team nose tackle in OTAs)
Swanson Miller
With a Rogers suspension one of these guys will likely make the roster and we might carry 2 defensive linemen on the practice squad for some depth and youth.
I thinl Geathers will make the team. Don’t know if the Browns want to expose a guy of his physical stature to the waivers by trying to get him through to the practice squad.
Bingo.
"Young men, I have no doubt that you're gonna do well today. But I have 1 favor to ask of you... SAVE JIMMY JOHNSON'S ASS FOR ME!" Lou Holtz
by TheRealSlimShady on Jun 28, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. I am stoked to see what Geathers can do.
6’7 305 is pretty rare.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 1, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
With all due respect to Geathers, bulldozing a punter isn’t a huge accomplishment…
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
"Turner, at midcourt...inside it, at the buzzer, GOT IT!!!!"
We're the Big Ten, who the F@*# are YOU??!?!?!
by Andrew Tolliver on Jun 29, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
No, it’s not — especially during training camp where you risk injuring the guy. I believe this was a point against him, and was seen as rather juvenile.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jun 29, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Well said.
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
"Turner, at midcourt...inside it, at the buzzer, GOT IT!!!!"
We're the Big Ten, who the F@*# are YOU??!?!?!
by Andrew Tolliver on Jun 29, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I read somewhere else that he was throwing fists at an offensive linemen. Both of these actions make me wonder about him as a person. Too early to judge, but that’s not a start you want when you are just joining a team.
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
Yeah, Geathers seems to have some maturity and self-control issues: if he can’t control himself at practice can he control himself on gameday? This isn’t just an issue of drawing penalties but also of whether he’ll have enough discipline to maintain his assignments.
With his height he also needs a lot of technique work. A tall player like him needs to learn how to “play low”, otherwise he’ll lose the leverage battle and get washed out on every play.
That was unecessary but I would still like my Defensive lineman to be nasty.
"Young men, I have no doubt that you're gonna do well today. But I have 1 favor to ask of you... SAVE JIMMY JOHNSON'S ASS FOR ME!" Lou Holtz
by TheRealSlimShady on Jun 29, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Antwan Odom’s health could depend on whether we are 3rd or last. Before he got injured last season he was a sack machine. I’d still have Pittsburgh and Baltimore ahead of us. Also, even though I put Pittsburgh ahead of us, I acknowledge that Harrison, Woodley and Farrior are the real performers in that front 7.
Even with Odom, I think we have a better Line. Besides Odom, they can’t get that consistent of pressure from some of their guys…plus IMO, their DTs are underwhelming at times.
I agree with Pitt although Keisel and Smith are excellent players (but getting older)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Robaire Smith was awesome at the end of last year. He was quick off the ball, and getting a lot of knockback.
If we have a healthy and not-suspended Rogers, I put our line ahead of pittsburgh’s with Rubin at NT, Rogers and Smith at the DEs. Since I am not convinced that will be the case to start the year, I put us 3rd. Because they have different jobs, I think out line is better at what we do than Cincy’s is at what they do.
I do wish we still had someone like Corey Williams for depth this year, but trading him was the right thing to do because of his contract and the ROI at the time. This is a place we should look for 25ish year old cheap free agents and draftees in the near future. If Geathers can put it together, he is the only young guy besides Rubin we have.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Robaire Smith was awesome at the end of last year. He was quick off the ball, and getting a lot of knockback.
how was he when he wasn’t playing against the worst teams in the league?
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jun 28, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
We’ve been through this about those teams not being entirely awful.
Also, the worst teams in the league can have some really good linemen and lines. I think Joe Thomas is probably the best example, there.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Depends on which games you believe he was “good” in. The Jaqs, Shittsburgh, Detroit, KC, Raiders, and STL all had bottom half or bottom 5 ranked offensive lines.
I just don’t believe in this selective reasoning tactic. Was he getting knockbacks when he played against Denver, Minnesota, Baltimore, Cincinnati, even chicago?
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jun 29, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Bottom 5?
and we never played STL…just because they were bad doesn’t mean we played them.
Instead of whatever way you were ranking them, lets look at football outsiders’ rankings…and lets start at week 11 when we played Detroit.
The rankings are as follows (just for pure pass blocking and adjusted sack rate) 22nd, 10th, 5th, 29th, 25th, 31st, 28th. Not all great, but not all bottom 5…However, I do not consider Pittsburgh an accurate analysis, because i feel Big Ben holds onto the ball too long and that is why he takes so many sacks…he took even more than Leftwitch when he played (and leftwich is immobile)…but either way, the average team we faced (when you average out all the adjusted sack rates) is just outside of the bottom 10
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Also, Leftwitch’s delivery is almost as long as Tebow’s.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
ummm, maybe I’m missing something here but the average of those rankings you just listed is 21.4
That is quite a bit away from being just outside the bottom 10. Or is that for the full season? If so sorry
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
I am actually adjusting Pittsburghs a bit for having Big Ben back there. yes their line isn’t great, but if you look at the other QBs that have played with that line when he is out with injury or just out of the game…they average about 1.5% less sacks (1.5 lower on the sack rate) so I just took about 1% away (give him the benefit of the doubt because of small sample size) and then used that to come up with the rankings and the average is about 18-19.
And did you take the average of those numbered rankings or the average amount of total sacks the teams incurred?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I’d say it’s a decent starting point for trying to figure out how good an O-line is. He brought some stats to back up his argument. If you don’t like them then bring your own to refute it.
by Legoman0721 on Jun 29, 2010 3:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I see absolutely no stats. I see subjective rambling.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Jun 29, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
there is no stat called offensive line rating, he made it up.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jun 29, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
and STL
C’mon now. You are trying to lie to me about who we played just so you can fit another crappy team in there to be more pessimistic?
Robaire played well against San Diego, is that a good enough offense for you? Dielman and McNeill a good enough duo for him to go up against? He played well against Baltimore the second time, too—getting in the backfield for QB pressures and stopping runs on 3rd and 1 when everyone in the stadium knows Baltimore is going to try to run it down our throats.
First off the ball:

Stop on 3rd and < 1:

Penetration:

Bit hit on Flacco:

Once he got healthy, he was making plays like this several times per game.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Jun 29, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Ownage by Rufio. Never fails.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Jun 29, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
You should make a front page post for these sometimes (i.e. “Robaire Smith’s Playmaking Ability Last Season”) and briefly state your motivation behind composing it (to counter criticism of Smith’s play against other teams). I hate to see the research get buried in the comments section sometimes!
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Jun 29, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree somewhat. If Rogers can contribute better than 2009 and play DE and have a season like ’08, plus maybe a bit of production from Geathers, I would probably put us ahead of Pittsburgh. I think Aaron Smith is going to have a dropoff this year in effectiveness.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I voted us 2nd based on the fact that Rubin and Rogers would start on the D-line. Only an assumption at this point, but I would love to see how well it works.
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
in the NFL i think you need a lot of depth on the D-Line, and I don’t think we have it, so I’m going 3rd.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jun 29, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah…that is the one thing that makes me a bit hesitant too…If geathers can show something, I do think we have at least decent depth for this year. Coleman can start, but would be a great rotation guy (if rogers plays DE) and Moseley is servicable too.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
yes. I can see them second possibly barring any major setback (rubin regressing, someone getting injured, etc…) and if Rogers, playing DE can get penetration like in ’08. If he could get 4.5 sacks, 16 more QB hits and 9 QB hurries and be in the QBs face when double teamed at the nose, He would be ridiculous on the edge (maybe 7 or so sacks)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
How scary that would be to be a QB and see Rubin and Rogers coming at you! I think I would just fall down with too huge linemen of their size running at me or throw the ball in the stands (or possibly just hand it off to the RB even if its not a running play). LOL
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
Too huge if they’re about to crush your skull, which is after all what we’re hoping for!
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jun 30, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahhh the Favre Maneuver.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
I put 'em second
Half the time they are better than either the squeelers or Baltimore. As for Rodgers mailing it in, I still remember him fighting off three OL and blocking a field goal in a game we couldn’t possibly win. He tires but gives great effort.
No, that’s Mack’s spot.
"Young men, I have no doubt that you're gonna do well today. But I have 1 favor to ask of you... SAVE JIMMY JOHNSON'S ASS FOR ME!" Lou Holtz
by TheRealSlimShady on Jun 29, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Dual-FB formation.
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
"Turner, at midcourt...inside it, at the buzzer, GOT IT!!!!"
We're the Big Ten, who the F@*# are YOU??!?!?!
by Andrew Tolliver on Jun 29, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
seriously though, imagine handing the ball to rogers on a 3rd or 4th and inches. i think he gets a first down by simply falling forward.
Even better – run the option with Mack and Rogers…
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
"Turner, at midcourt...inside it, at the buzzer, GOT IT!!!!"
We're the Big Ten, who the F@*# are YOU??!?!?!
by Andrew Tolliver on Jun 30, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Just noticed this:
When Eric Mangini acquired Kenyon Coleman last season, I feared that Robaire Smith would be demoted to backup duties since he was coming off of an ACL injury.
Ruptured Achilles.
I made the same mistake the other day with Willie Colon’s injury.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Eh, tomato, tom -ah-to.
"Spartans never die Jorge. They're just missing in action."
by SpecialBrownie on Jul 2, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions

by 
























