Best Move Worst Move
by realmccoy on Aug 13, 2010 12:00 PM EDT
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As we head to the dog days of camp, lets talk about what moves by the new regime are working and those that are still in doubt. This is a rag thread to discuss what was the single best move by Mike Holmgren and what was his worst move. On the worst move, this can also include actions that weren´t taken that should have been. And so I don´t take an endless stream of chit - let me state - I would not include the drafting of Colt McCoy in the best move category.
Overall, Holmgren has several strong candidates for best move. He ended the QB controversy, made Cribbs happy, acquired Andy Heckert, and had several nice moves on the player front. The Eagle trade seems like it will add some much needed depth to the secondary, and Gocong has looked fairly strong. Fujita was a nice pickup, especially in light of the DQ injury. Kudos for the attempt to improve the right side of the line - needed a top 3 pick there for sometime, and Pahos was a good gamble. But for me, the 2 best candidates for best move are the Heckert hire and the acquisition of Seneca Wallace on the cheap. At a minimum, Seneca will add some creativity to offense in dire need of creativity. Best case scenario, he would be an uber solid number 2 QB that could ride in on a white horse if Delhomme reverts to 2009 form.
On the worst move side of things, I am just not crazy about the packaging of picks for Montario Hardesty. Due to his injury history, would have stayed a little more patient there. I am so so on the Kam trade, just liked him and did not think the value was great. In addition, while I like keeping Mangini, I would have given the boot to Daboll´s fat or skinny arse depending on which stage of his binge and purge cycle he was on at the time. But I think the biggest negative comes on moves that were not made. For me, we needed to add a little experience to the S and WR positions. Since Mike Adams is not a terrible depth option, I will make the number 1 issue the inability to upgrade the WR corps with a veteran over 5´7" and under 50, and not named Engram. Still, can´t fix everything, and overall a great start.
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Best- Aquriing Sheldon Brown, veteran presence for the young corners. Allows Haden time to develop since he only started playing the position in college. The Brady Quinn trade was a close second.
Worst- Releasing Donte Stallworth. I think that Stallworth would have added good depth to the WR corps, and that he deserved a second chance with the Browns based on how he handle his situation. I wanted to say not drafting Jimmy Clausen as I thought there was a lot of value with him being available in the second round, but TJ ward seems to be progressing and I’m happy with Colt McCoy (even though Colt’s development will take longer than Clausen’s)
Stallworth did not look good in the preseason game, IMO.
Clausen looked very good at times, and some of the things that I didn’t like about him came through at other times. A few of the throws he tried were a little cocky, borderline stupid. But he looked like he was making adjustments well—especially for a rookie—and showed off some of his intangibles.
Cody also flashed some talent. The one play where he took Pro Bowler Ryan Kahlil and kept him at bay with one hand and then tackled the ballcarrier with the other was the kind of play the ravens hope he can make all the time.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Stallworth’s contract was awful, no way we could justify paying him what he had left. Releasing him was the only option.
"I spoil a lot of people with my play." -Lebron James
I agree. I can’t believe anyone is upset that we released Stallworth.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 13, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for admitting Jimmy looked good. And I’m not trying to make excuses but the INT was definitetly not his fault. And the center had his share of bad snaps
"Young men, I have no doubt that you're gonna do well today. But I have 1 favor to ask of you... SAVE JIMMY JOHNSON'S ASS FOR ME!" Lou Holtz
by TheRealSlimShady on Aug 13, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
The center was giving him pansy snaps every time he was in shotgun. He did well on that one double outs play to the left to know what the defense was doing, catch the weak sauce snap, turn and fire somewhere near the outside WR.
The throw where Clausen rolled right and threw a dump off to a back on the left side of the formation should have been a pick 6, and it should have been Clausen’s fault.
There were I think two throws on in routes over the middle that should have been picked/broken up as well. Maybe Brees, Manning, and Brady should be attempting those throws, but I don’t think Clausen’s accuracy is that good. At least not yet.
All of that said, he looked very good for a guy in his first NFL game. I think the true test comes when he has some success in the league. Can he be the leader of an NFL team? Does he take the starting job only to bask in his own success once he has it? Will he be cocky, falling back on his natural skills, or confident in his natural ability while continuing to work at his craft? The jury is definitely still out, but he is looking good.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’ll give you the bad throw on the screen, but I think the throws over the middle were pretty good.
"Young men, I have no doubt that you're gonna do well today. But I have 1 favor to ask of you... SAVE JIMMY JOHNSON'S ASS FOR ME!" Lou Holtz
by TheRealSlimShady on Aug 14, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
You only think that because they were completed.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
The first one was put in the only spot were the receiver could’ve made a play on it, and I don’t see the problem with the other one. It seems like you’re reaching
"Young men, I have no doubt that you're gonna do well today. But I have 1 favor to ask of you... SAVE JIMMY JOHNSON'S ASS FOR ME!" Lou Holtz
by TheRealSlimShady on Aug 15, 2010 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
This was not a good throw. It was high, it was tipped, and usually when a ball thrown that hard over the middle is tipped, it goes right to the MOF safety waiting to pluck it out of the air and run it back for 6:
(insert joke about the WR “reaching” here)
You could see him really have to step into this throw and put everything he had into it. A lot of times when that happens the step into the throw gets long and the ball goes high.
I am about to go to bed, so I don’t want to find the other one right now to try to see if I was remembering correctly or not. If you really want I can look for it tomorrow night.
On the surface, this is one throw. It really isn’t a big deal. In fact, I would easily give Clausen an A for his performance, considering this was his first ever NFL game. The thing you worry about with Clausen is will he continue to be over-confident and try to fit these balls in? Or will he realize while he has an NFL arm, he isn’t Jay Cutler in that department, and shouldn’t try to force these ones? I could see this getting worse or getting better as he settles in. If it gets better, the Panthers got themselves a pretty damn good deal.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
cool beans.
"Young men, I have no doubt that you're gonna do well today. But I have 1 favor to ask of you... SAVE JIMMY JOHNSON'S ASS FOR ME!" Lou Holtz
by TheRealSlimShady on Aug 15, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Best: Upgrading the secondary (if I have to be specific I will say the trade with the Eagles)
Worst: I still don’t feel confident about the QBs, I am glad we moved on from BQ and DA, but still feel like we could have gone in a different direction. Bad QB play could sink this team, even though I like a lot of the pieces in place.
"I spoil a lot of people with my play." -Lebron James
It’s Tom Heckert, not Andy Heckert.
by Onyx Lightning on Aug 13, 2010 4:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Oh wait, I get it. Sarcastic comment withdrawn.
by Onyx Lightning on Aug 13, 2010 4:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Best moves – getting rid of players who didn’t want to contribute and just wanted a paycheck. getting McCoy cheaply.
Worst moves- Not trading back in the first round of the draft. Not addressing the right side of the offensive line strong enough. Not addressing the OC problem.
I'm really Cleveland Brown Jr's illegitimate son.
Worst moves- Not trading back in the first round of the draft.
This again? There was no one to trade down with — no one wanted the 7th pick in the 1st round. As I have said many, many, many times: trade down is not just something you can do, like draft the best player available — there has to be a partner for trading down willing to give you value. There wasn’t any such partner here. No team traded into the top ten.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 14, 2010 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree. I would have loved the browns to have traded down, but there wasn’t an option there. If there was, we would have given up a lot f value to the point it couldve been our worst move.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
I believe the Original poster meant “trading back into the first round to grab another first rounder.” This is also very difficult since we needed a lot of these picks and used a lot of them to grab key players when trading into the first would have cost us these players.
by BrownDawg1409 on Aug 16, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me get a little Texas homerism. I like Earl Thomas better than Joe Haden. Legit 4.4 speed and the versatility to play both safety and CB. When we missed on Berry, Thomas was the pick, as he had a much better year than Berry.
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
Best: Fujita
Worst: Too many off-days (Mangini is getting soft)
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Aug 13, 2010 7:03 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
would you rather us do the opposite and get team activities get shut down because of too MUCH practice?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
I had to come up with something to say as the “worst” – I’m afraid I still have some rose-colored glasses right now.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
Best: Trading for Brown, picking up Delhomme
Worst: Drafting Ward in the second, drafting a slow CB with poor instincts first
Ridiculous: Passing on Clausen twice
by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 14, 2010 6:00 PM EDT reply actions
ridiculously good, right?
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Aug 15, 2010 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Best: Cutting DA / trading BQ / retaining Mangini / paying Cribbs
Worst: Hard to say, I like most of the moves we made, though I’d have liked to get a little more out of the Wimbley trade.
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Aug 16, 2010 3:27 AM EDT reply actions
You’ve yet to see how these players will work out, and you’re already calling our draft the best move?
I really think it’s too early to be deciding how good/bad our offseason moves were. We’ll know shortly, but we can’t base everything off one preseason game.
Kill them. Kill them all.
I like the way we handled the draft. Simple as that.
“Oh, but it’s to early blah, blah, blah.”
No, it isn’t. Not for the judgement I’m making. I like the picks themselves, that we made. I’m not claiming that 3 seasons from now Haden and Ward will be “Pro Bowl”-ers, nor do I expect them to be. (If they are that’d be awesome, though.)
Is it to early to “KNOW” (as in, for a fact) what the best / worst move is, but it’s definitely not to early to state what (in your own opinion) are the best and worst moves.
Best move: tied b/n paying Josh Cribbs and trading BQ.
Worst move: picking BQ and paying DA in the first place.
"We don't take no prisoners! I say we kill'em, every other team! That way we don't got to feed them or nothing!
-Coach Kevin Hockett
by brownsboy14 on Aug 17, 2010 12:24 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Best move: Upgrading the secondary (trade with eagles being the best)
Worst move: Trading Wimbley
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
honestly, what did Wimbley have that our current LBs don’t?
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Aug 17, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not. Either way, I would have liked to see him with some competent DBs behind him.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
This is true. I have been an advocate of what a good secondary can do for the pass rush so it may have helped quite a bit.
"I spoil a lot of people with my play." -Lebron James
I’m of this school of thought.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Aug 18, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this. If you have better cover corners, the QBs will generally take longer to make a decision which gives the pass rush more time to get pressure. Conversely, if you have a pass rush that gets to the QB quickly, the QB has less time to make decisions and therefore, it can make corners look better because they have more margin for error.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
Which, according to some reports, would’ve helped Wimbley IMMENSELY as he was always ‘this close’ to getting a sack.
by BrownDawg1409 on Aug 20, 2010 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions
He still wasn’t playing at the level that you want from a 1st round pass rusher. The most disappointing thing about the trade was that it meant we definitively busted on a guy who was supposed to be an impact rusher IMO.
I consider this, along with a young franchise QB to be our biggest need.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Anyone else still pissed that the Browns traded down with Baltimore so they could take Haloti Ngata?
That worked out well for us.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 20, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m of the opinion that we really don’t know how Wimbley and Ngata compare. Besides playing different positions, Ngata was dropped into the middle of an all-world defense and Wimbley was dropped into the Browns defense. Had we taken Ngata and Baltimore taken Wimbley, I wonder if we wouldn’t be here today bemoaning the fact that we let a great pass rusher get past us in the draft.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.
Sure, but that was the first season we were going to run a 3-4 defense and we had nothing in the shape of good 3-4 lineman on the roster.
Now you could argue that we needed OLB’s as well, but personally I think that NT is 100x more important in a 3-4 than OLB’s.
Since ‘06 the Browns have finished 29th, 27th, 28th and 28th in rushing defense. Not saying that Ngata would have made us top ten, but I am pretty sure we would have been much better than high 20’s.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 20, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I think NT is the most valuable position in a 3-4, but Ngata had serious character concerns/work ethic concerns coming out of Oregon. I think the culture in the Ravens’ locker room/of the Raven’s defense didn’t exactly hurt this area of his game.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I don’t remember Ngata having those concerns coming out of school, not saying you aren’t correct. I remember Ngata’s issue being his perceived of lack of a pass rush moves.
Either way, I don’t buy into the fact that Ngata is simply the better player because he went into a different situation than Wimbley. Sure it plays a role, but Ngata is just a much better player. He is probably the best player of that entire draft (Mario Williams? Brandon Marshall? MJD?)
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 21, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s probably a better value pick than Williams, but I’d take Williams over Ngata.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
I don’t know man, both guys are pretty rare players.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
But the Ravens got Ngata a lot later if that is what you mean.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I don’t buy into it either. What I buy into is the fact that we simply cannot ever know what would have happened had the teams drafted the other player.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’m with you on the first part. It’s hard to get upset about certain missed picks, with hindsight being 20-20 and all, unless they were calling for it before hand too.
However, under the same line of thinking, you can’t really claim we might see the opposite results had we not swapped picks. The growth of Ngata and Wimbley might have been based on their surroundings, but maybe not. There have been plenty of All-Pro defenders on shitty teams.
Change of Heart - Update after 2nd Preseason Game
If I could change my vote – I would make the trade up for Montario Hardesty as the worst move. Not really discouraged with him – more a statement that Peyton Hillis is a beast and a younger stud on the DL, and not sacrificing the picks would have been a much better move. But here is a guy who was hurt often in Tenn and now cannot get on the field here. You cant help the club in the tub Montario, and in the NFL, staying healthy is a skill.
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
It’s WAY too early to panic about Hardesty.
"I spoil a lot of people with my play."
"But I mean, even my family gets spoiled at times watching me doing things that I do, on and off the court." -Lebron James
Not panicked about Montario – just fascinated with Hillis and Vickers in the backfield.
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
a little too fascinated I think. Hillis is a great power runner, but Montario has the potential to be much better.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not going to lie. I’m very worried that we won’t get much at all out of Hardesty, mostly do to being injury prone.
"i want to suck the f-ing quarterback. This is football." -discoinferno083
I am significantly worried about this as well. The only logical thing about it is that he happens to be hurt or banged up a lot, and it is his knees a significant portion of the time. This recent injury doesn’t sound serious and it sounds like he is fully recovered from his major surgery, but that doesn’t stop me from being concerned with the pattern of injuries.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
It’s funny that I voiced my concern about the injury histories of Ward and Hardesty and a couple people basically said that their fully recovered and it won’t be a problem. So far, that’s been true of Ward but Hardesty injuring his knee is a bit bothersome.
Colt McCoy... the cure for Cleveland's Eric Berry man-crush.
They actually were reported to be fully recovered and should have been, given a realistic timeline. Especially from the major injuries.
The issue is now and should have always been if the injuries were freak things or parts of a pattern.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
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