Browns Say Goodbye to David Veikune, Last Year's Second Round Pick
by Chris Pokorny on Sep 7, 2010 4:48 PM EDT
in General News
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PrintYou thought that by David Veikune making the roster cut on Saturday that his job was safe? Think again. The Cleveland Browns waived last year's second-round pick to make room for cornerback Derrick Roberson, not to be confused with defensive lineman Derreck Robinson.
Releasing Veikune is sure to draw some mixed opinions from fans due to how high he was drafted in 2009. I had him on my original cut list, and it looks like I was right. The team might not fully give up on him -- if he clears waivers, you'd imagine the team would stash him on their practice squad.
Roberson was just released by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, so the team may also be using him for some inside information just for this week. He played in six games with Tampa Bay last season.
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I for one hope he clears waivers.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
Why? I don’t think we’d put him on the practice squad (assuming he is eligible). Do you just wish ill will on the guy?
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, now I see that you are probably wanting him to clear so we can put him on the practice squad. Fair enough. Don’t think we would put him there but we’ll see shortly.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, at least from the rules on wikipedia, he is NOT eligible for the practice squad. He played in 10 games last year, and according to wikipedia, a player is not eligible if "if he has accrued a year of NFL experience (six or more games on a club’s 53-man active roster or official Injured Reserve list.) If the player was on the active list for fewer than 9 games during their “only Accrued Season(s)”, he maintains his eligibility for the practice squad."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Veikune played in 10 games?
That is mind blowing to me.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
According to Tony Grossi, he did (again, like wikipedia, let’s take it with a grain of salt). But if true, he played in 10 games and never showed anything. I just can’t fault the staff for cutting him — the mistake, if any, was taking him in the first place.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you really expect a DE to be making tackles on our coverage unit?
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
but I can hope!
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
I hope we can keep him as well, but I am guessing that a team that has weaker rosters (Rams, Bucs, Lions, Raiders, etc.) will take a gamble that Veikune will live up to his draft status.
Cheap, young and presumably talented. Isn’t this the kind of guys we should be adding, not cutting?
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to question why we cut him instead of Brown.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 7, 2010 5:06 PM EDT reply actions
I’ve been predicting this since the first preseason game but I am surprised that Brown is higher on the chart than him.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Yet Titus Brown is still on the roster?
"There is a small, but important difference between peeing in the pool and peeing into the pool." - Demitri Martin
But Heckert, Mangini, and Holmgren know every facet of these guys. They watch them everyday and then study their tape. I am not happy we axed a 2nd pick, but I am confident Titus Brown is a better fit for the Browns than Veikhune. No use compounding a draft mistake by giving the player an entitlement to a roster spot over a hungrier or better player.
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
I am not happy we axed a 2nd pick
Actually, you should be happy that we axed him and didn’t keep him around just because he was a 2nd round pick — ie that our guys know when to cut bait. We should be unhappy that we picked him in the first place, though no matter how good you are, you are going to have some misses.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
“Roberson was just released by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, so the team may also be using him for some inside information just for this week. He played in six games with Tampa Bay last season.”
GREAT observation Chris!
That is totally a Mangini-type of move to gain inside info like that.
Dawg Scooper: THE Cleveland Browns Blog
http://www.dawgscooper.net/
An online partner with Dawgs By Nature.
You don’t cut a second round pick one year later to get inside information on a 3-13 team.
I have been a critic of Veikune, but I don’t understand this. There are plenty of guys we could have cut and re-signed. I doubt we get a chance to keep Veikune.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
We could not go into the season with 3 CBs and 12 LBs! You cannot dedicate almost 25% of the roster to this position. It is that simple. If Mangini brought him in just because of TB – he will be gone next week and we will have another CB in his place. Do you want to go into the season with a 32 year old CB, a rookie, and 1 veteran sort of in a “prime” of his career?
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
I can name 15 players that should have been cut before Veikune.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
And before anyone asks:
1. Eric Barton
2. Titus Brown
3. Carlton Mitchell
4. Robert Royal
5. Alex Smith
6. Nick Sorensen
7. Chansi Stuckey
8. Ray Veterone
9. David Bowens
10. Kenyon Coleman
11. Chris Gocong
Okay, so maybe only 11.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’d add just about any of our backup offensive linemen to that list. Every one of them can be replaced at any time.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
No way do I think Stuckey should get cut before Veikune. I could except anyone else on that list, but definetly not Stuckey, as thin as our WR’s currently are.
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
While that could be true, I don’t see how he’s that replaceable at this moment. To me, he can be a very solid slot guy and I don’t know of anyone currently availble who’d be able to make the same contributions he could right now.
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt he has 15 catches for us this year.
I wouldn’t mind bringing in Mark Clayton (Tampa).
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright, how bout’ a bet based on Stuckey’s performance?
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Just for fun and braggin’ rights, mind you.
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Wanna go the whole “name change” route for this one?
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I like the Signature route myself.
Also, really dumb avatar pictures.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Eh, I don’t know how to do signatures. Also, we need at least one witness.
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Uh, wut?
Click edit profile and write in the box that says signatures…
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I am willing to do the avatar thing.
How many catches you want to do?
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Let’s do an over/under on an ambitious 30 catches. If Stuckey doesn’t get to 30 by the end of the year, I’ll change my avatar for a whole year (something obviously appropriate). But as soon as he makes catch number 30, that’s game over, aight’?
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Not sure why you just gave him 30 catches — B19K predicted 15 catches. You are a nice man.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 8, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Blame my Butch Davis-like gut feeling.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I assume that if he finishes with over 30 catches, he will be able to choose an avatar for me.
I’m all about fairness.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
And that is the bet.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless we really do bring in another receiver or somebody else takes that #3 spot, there’s no way he doesn’t get 15 catches.
Kill them. Kill them all.
Stuckey is still young and didn’t really get the offense when he came last year, he’s had a full TC with these guys and I believe it pays off….reports have indicated he’s looked good
by year of the elf on Sep 8, 2010 12:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Right. Unfortunately the only thing I remember from him this preseason was a drop. I still agree, though. I expect him to do well this season.
Kill them. Kill them all.
I think Watson and Moore will Frankenstein themselves into our best slot WR.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Our two leading receivers last year had 34 catches.
Mass 34
Harrison 34
Furrey 23
Cribbs 20
Stuckey 19
Damn, we were awful last year, for the sake of the team I hope Bernie loses this bet.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
It wouldn’t disappoint me in the least.
If Stuckey gets 30 catches, this offense will be MUCH better than I expect.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s the final countdown!!!~
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 9, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
If we’re replacing Stuckey, I’d rather have Bobby Engram back than Clayton.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
I agree. Also, I think Michael Clayton is the guy in Tampa…To me, he sucks. If he could focus, he may be a solid receiver, but he has the concentration of Braylon Edwards without the gamebreaking speed or ability to separate.
Mark Clayton (ravens, now with rams) I may take over stuckey…however in my mind, they are all similarly as good (or as bad) and stuckey is the youngest.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
I think that all of those guys must have a role on the team that they do well. Ventrone, sorensen, etc must be able to play special teams and impact the outcome of the game. It’s clear that Veikune just didn’t have whatever mangini wants in an NFL linebacker. While veikune seemed athletic he just never made any plays that i saw that made me think he had what it takes.
I think he just might not have any instincts or enough toughness or whatever you might need. Maybe his work habits are a joke or maybe he just isn’t very bright. Whatever it is I think that pretty much everyone on that list adds more value to the team (in one way or another) than veikune did, save for maybe eric barton. Though I will agree that it seems like only our starting offensive linemen deserve to be anywhere near an NFL roster.
"Smokescreen."
aside from being a shitty linebacker, i guess veikune also is a shitty special teamer, meanwhile some of these other guys can either competently do a job on the offense or defense in a backup capacity (or in a package) or are at least useful on special teams. Veikune seemingly brought no value to the team in any facet. Oh well another wasted 2nd round pick. I can only wonder what would have happened had St. Louis passed on Laurenaitis one spot ahead of where we picked brian Robiskie.
"Smokescreen."
Veikune has showed us nothing. I am still surprised he was cut over Brown, but the point is that if we have decided that he’s got no more than he’s shown us so far, it was the right move for both parties to let him go.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Trust me, I wasn’t a fan of Veikune.
I don’t support cutting a second round pick one year into his career. I don’t know if he will ever be good, but he is cheap and young, something we should be keeping.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
C-C-C combo breaker!
I reaheheelllllly like saying that.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
i think i used it somewhere a few days back myself.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Sep 7, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Where do you think I got it?
;D I also think it’s from… Street Fighter? maybe?
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t know, I never got to play the classics. Though I thought it might be from Guilty Gear or something.
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s from underrated fighting game Killer Instinct. Back when Rare made good games for Nintendo and not really disappointing ones for Microsoft.
"Quote goes here."
I used to play that KI I completely forgot about that, knew that I knew it from somewhere though.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 8, 2010 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
DUDE! REALLY?! I OWN THAT GAME.
Best game I ever owned for my SN.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Too bad this line of thinking wasn’t around during the Quinn Saga (not directed at you personally).
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
It’s probably easier to have that attitude when the person in question isn’t currently starting and actively costing you games.
Never underestimate the powers of Josh Cribbs
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 7, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I really wish we would have cut Barton. Why a rebuilding team would cut a second year converted DL/LB player who was showing improvements is beyond me. I understand wanting vets at LB, but Fujita, Bowens and DJack should be enough.
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 5:30 PM EDT reply actions
Can you tell me of these improvements of which you speak?
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, for one, he busted his ass in the offseason dropping 35 pounds and remaking his body for the position he was being asked to play. Second, he saw the field in the preseason and was our third leading tackler in game 4 (behind Benard and the also cut Asante).
Not a lot to go on, but for an admitted project, it seems strange to just give up on a young, inexpensive player who, at the very least, has enough of a work ethic to remake his body in a single offseason.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
Did you attend TC at all this year or last? Veikune was in position much more often. Was in better shape for the position being asked to play. Was willing to play ST to get on the field. When he WAS on the field he seemed to be around the play even if it wasnt him making the play.
All of these are signs of a guy starting to get it. Not to mention there were older (Barton) and more deserving (Brown) guys who should have been behind him on the depth chart.
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
even if he didn’t improve, the fact that he is young, and still may have upside makes him more valuable in my mind than barton…unless they think he will be playing like he is 28 again (and is THAT healthy which I very much doubt)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
On a side note, while people are going to rip Mangini for the Veikune pick 2 of our 3 2nd rounders last year are starting, Mack is looking like a soon to be all pro center, Maiva looked good in his limited time last year, and James Davis is pushing for carries.
Not bad for the first draft of a rebuild.
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 5:41 PM EDT reply actions
Just because they are starting doesn´t make them good players. But I agree that Mack has proved he is a player. MoMass has demonstrated some good things. Robo still has a lot to prove as last year was a bust. It looks as if he has worked hard and improved, so if he is a player your point is 100% valid.
Note to Bill Byrne "Because you aren´t Texas and you´ll never be Texas"
MoMass was being guarded by #1 CB’s most of the season despite being a rookie and played pretty well. Robiskie slacked off last year and got in Mangini’s doghouse. Seems to have done a full 180 this offseason and was working harder then anyone at TC. Mack is widely considered a top 5 C in the league already, Maiava statistically outplayed Rey Maualuga (who was obviously the bigger name).
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Robiskie slacked off last year
From everything I’ve read, Robiskie’s work ethic wasn’t the issue.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
ive heard the opposite. I heard he didnt try in practice (much like Harrison) and didnt want to do ST.
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The emergence of the second-year receivers, particularly Robiskie is of utmost importance. Robiskie has caught the attention of the coaches since OTAs and caught as many as six touchdown passes Friday morning.
"I think it has a lot to do with them because that’s why it was important at the time we drafted those guys," Mangini said. "They keep plugging away and keep working all season, after the season after practice on the jugs machine.
"Typically, people with high work ethic will get better."
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know why the whole thing isn’t in quotes. It should be.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully this means Carlton Mitchell will get better. We need that burner.
Kill them. Kill them all.
If Mitchell can learn to catch the ball away from his body we have our future #1 WR to pair with MoMass (who I see as a solid #2)
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a huge “if”.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Oooooh, you’re the best friend, that I’ve ever had~
I so wish I had a picture of Mtichell and the Jugs machine running through a flower patch right now…
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Or on a romantic candle lit date?
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Unless you’re best friends also your love interest, no. Song doesn’t fit that image anyway.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Unless you’re best friends also your love interest, no
running through a flower patch right now…
…What you do with your best friends is your business, I suppose.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
But what Mitchell does with HIS is OUR business 100%.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I would but my photoshop computer is down right now.
Behind me is Simmsinns… ha.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
is that from last year? Because thats what I am talking about. I understand he is busting it this season, but I heard that last season he really wasnt working that hard.
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand this is anecdotal evidence, but as someone that played with robi, I feel confident telling you that work ethic is not an issue.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Sep 7, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I find this cool still.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Chagrin Falls
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Sep 7, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
This. Yes we cut a second round pick after one season (why?), but we hit on quite a few picks last season. Let’s hope we keep it up. A lot of our picks’ success probably has to do with the coaching, so if Mangini and Co. keep it up, we’ll continue to have some success in the draft.
Kill them. Kill them all.
Well, they had to put their #1 CBs on someone, and Steptoe wasn’t available.
Seriously, though, he only drew the #1 CB because he was the biggest threat – but not necessarily a really dangerous threat at the time.
With our QBs playing (as Clark Judge said) like the Venus de Milo last year, it’s hard to imagine any of our receivers a big threats back then. But if you had to rank them, I think the guy that averaged over 18 YPC would be at the top of the list.
I don’t think the point is why they put #1s on him, but that he had to go up against #1s every game. The fact that he was covered by #1s is not evidence that he was perceived as a threat, but is a fact that should be taken into consideration when evaluating his production.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
Picks like this kill me.
At least Robo and Massaquoi seem to be on the right track. 2 out of 3 is okay I guess.
It really isnt the pick thats the issue, I think its the fact that we gave up on him too soon. Did anyone really expect someone who has played DL since high school to suddenly explode on to the scene as an ILB? OLB maybe, but ILB is alot different.
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I know what you mean. We use a 2nd on him, acknowledge he’s a project, but then don’t go through with it?
Although to be honest, I can easily see Heckert saying he didn’t want him on the 53.
Maybe the question should be, why draft a DE and try and turn him into an ILB?
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Mangini had seen it work before with Bruschi.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
I tend to think that was more the exception than the rule.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Bruschi was the exception, no doubt. But Veikune had the same frame and the same open hips that made Bruschi the exception. Big enough to rush the passer, athletic enough to drop into coverage, and fast enough to play sideline to sideline.
I understand the pick (and I say that as someone who was devastated on draft day when we took Veikune and left Shonne Green on the board).
I’m baffled by the cut.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
Vrabel too, right?
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
but wasn’t vrabel an OLB? so it was just DE to OLB…Bruschi was DE-ILB.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
He was strong and agile and seemed to work hard and do what he needed to do to help his team (playing some LB, DT, even NT in college). He was probably smart in the Mangini tests. Probably shared a lot of those characteristics with Bruschi. Doesn’t mean he would ever be that good, just the thought process in drafting him.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
To be honest I was never a fan of the robiskie pick. Still am not. I really, really hope I’m wrong b/c I like the kid and want him to succeed of course, but he’s just sooo slow..
by johnnyphoenix on Sep 7, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s not that slow. He was a track champion in high school so he’s got to be pretty fast.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
he carried our 4×200.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Sep 7, 2010 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
He also runs a sub 4.5. For a guy who is 6’3" and significantly over 200lbs. that isn’t bad.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
yeah. he just doesn’t run a 4.4 and is 6’3’’ like the elite downfield threats…but those guys are physical freaks in their own right.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
I think I know what you meant, but sub 4.5 would be a 4.4, no?
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
possibly. I was thinking rufio meant he ran a 4.5 flat. Also, his combine time was a 4.49 so it was barely under 4.5. My point was that a lot of guys out there run just a tenth of a second faster and have the same size (like DHB or a Braylon) but those guys are in some ways, physical freaks.\
I think we are all saying the same point that he has very good physical skills, but not elite NFL physical skills
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
Braylon ran between 4.45 and 4.5.
And before you get to it, I know on Wikipedia it says he ran a 4.38 but if you follow the link to the cited source, it still says 4.45 and nothing about a 4.38.
Robiskie should be plenty fast for the NFL in terms of deep speed. He won’t be a guy who is going to look blazing fast while outrunning 5’8" corners, but he should be able to stretch the field effectively. He has other skills that should make him a good WR, like many other good WRs in the NFL who don’t run sub 4.40.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I totally agree with you. I thought braylon ran about a 4.4 flat. My bad on that one. Robo definitely has the skills to be a very good player and can stretch the field. He has the skills to be a very good WR in the league, he just might not have the skills to be a ‘great’ one (which is why he fell to the 2nd round). Granted, Reggie wayne did not have the prototypical NFL body nor elite speed.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
Marques Colston, Anquan Boldin, Fitz, V Jax, Brandon Marshall, Wayne, all guys who didn’t run 4.4 flat.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yeah. I also pointed out Reggie Wayne. Robiskie still could end up being a great player. I pointed to Wayne to say that. I just said he may not be able to be a great player Because he doesn’t have elite physical skills. These guys overcame critics saying they would never become great players. Robiskie may do that too (I said he might not have the skills to become ‘great’) but he might not. its way too early to tell.
I would say he is less comparable to the guys in the middle because those guys ARE more physically gifted than Robiskie (because of other factors like size and strength). He could be a reggie wayne type, but lets not get ahead of ourselves with the comparison.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
4.4 ≠ requirement for bring a good NFL wideout, all I was saying.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Wasn’t Robo considered a mild reach at where we picked him? I know MoMass was. Just to preempt everyone, I agree that what the “experts” say and what actual NFL teams do during the draft are very different things.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 8, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, Robi was considered a slight reach. Depending on who you believe, Mass was either a spot on pick or another slight reach.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I try not to comment too much on Mass’s college career because i honestly didn’t pay too much attention to him, but I had a buddy from Cartersville, GA who is a huge Dawgs fan he was always complaining about Mass not living up to his potential. He felt he was a good receiver but he could never put it together to be great. I hope we can find a way to get him over that hump.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
He was definitely overshadowed by Green, but from what I saw of him his biggest problem was the dropsies.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Well we took the first step in getting the influence of Edwards away from him.
It’s 12:26 am and Braylon Edwards still sucks.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
by Villeslgr on Sep 10, 2010 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I was just showing a coworker this morning the wide open drop he had last year with the Jets where it bounces off his face mask. REC
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
We should make a “make the world aware braylon edwards sucks foundation” (very tentative sucky title, just like BE).
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
What always made BE seem like a physical freak to me is not so much the way he would reach out in every which direction to grab a pass that was just a bit outside (Thanks, Derek!), but the way he could so completely avoid the ones that came right to him. I mean, how does anyone with a pulse miss some of those? Freaky, no?
I worded my first comment poorly. I guess I need to say Robiskie ‘seems’ slow. I dunno, it’s just a somewhat unfounded opinion, I suppose—although I’m still skeptical of him. He just seems slow to me making his cuts/footwork.
by johnnyphoenix on Sep 9, 2010 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I could go either way on Vecky.
Chris, the Browns Board is running a survival football and a pick ’em league on yahoo.
you aware? Is this info worth sharing (posting?) here?
I’m sure there are many that cross over on both sites, but the more the merrier, I would think.
I have the id and pass is you need ’em.
Admit it. You’re just going to miss using the term “Veikunage” here.
Never underestimate the powers of Josh Cribbs
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 7, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
no reason to stop, it can just apply to more people.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Sep 7, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I’m glad we did not keep Veikune just because he was a second round pick. I agree with whoever said this was a Heckert move. I think Mangini drafted Veikune because he thought he was going to be another Gocong. The guy that got away while he was with the Jets and this would his second chance to get his guy. I don’t know how Gocong is going to be this season; we will have to see.
so are you actually happy to see him gone? you are glad we didn’t keep him b/c of his draft position and then paint this as a ‘mangini reach’
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
Yes, I’m happy to see him gone. I don’t know if I would have called him a “Mangini reach” because Browns did not have a 3rd round pick which more likely Veikune would have went in that round. I would say a poor decision based on his heart and not knowledge. It is interesting that Philly receives 3 picks for 59, makes you wonder what the Browns would have received if instead of drafting Veikune, we could have traded down and maybe received more picks. I’ve learned through my many fantasy sports drafts, it is always better to draft for value than to reach for a player that you like i.e. favorite player or for a specific position. I guess what I am trying to say the Browns or Mangini should have drafted for best available and not need or want.
I’ve learned through my many fantasy sports drafts, it is always better to draft for value than to reach for a player that you like
in no way whatsoever does this give you any idea what goes on with an NFL team and their draft strategy; if it did, we’d all be NFL consultants. its called fantasy for a reason.
This also applies to Franchise Mode in Madden.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
You’re tripping. It’s called Franchise Mode, of course it’s real life. Seriously?
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
Totally agree, I was just making a reference that the Browns should draft for value and best available and less about need especially in the early rounds. The late rounds is where you can take a gamble and draft for need and potential. I am nowhere implying because I’m a fantasy GM, I can be a real GM. I realize the difference between fantasy and reality but still there are similar analogies when drafting players of any franchise.
how many people have gone from fantasy GM to real GM?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
Why isn’t this green?
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 9, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
But again another wasted second round pick. The Browns never have luck with the second round. It seems like they always have to reach with that pick.
The Browns never have luck with the second round.
It really is amazing how little we have gotten out of the second round since 99, but I guess that could be said for just about every other round as well.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Eric Wright, MoMass (looks good for a second year player) DJack, Poole (good when he wasnt concussed)
We really havent missed as much in the second round as you guys would like to think.
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And Robo seems to be coming along. Now it looks like we have Ward, too. Who knows, maybe Hardesty after he recovers. No reason to write him off yet.
Kill them. Kill them all.
exactly. I know we are Browns fans but that doesnt mean we have to by cynical ALL the time.
by Justin Kowalczyk on Sep 7, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Good list. I like all those guys, and Eric Wright has been one of the most successful picks we have made — a guy we took a risk on and were dead right about (the guy has not had character issues here).
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
its the first round and the later rounds that kill us.
I would also like to add to the list Kevin Johnson, Dennis Northcutt. we just kept picking WRs in the 2nd and took too many after that (morgan and Davis were lightweight busts)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
Only thing I EVER remembered him doing for us was running to one side of the field then running to the complete OTHER side of the field and score a TD.
I was angry and happy. But that’s all I ever remember.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t remember him dropping a pass my grandma could catch that would have sealed a playoff win against the steelers?
He’s a classic new Browns player – 1 step fwd, 2 steps back
by HenryDawg on Sep 8, 2010 4:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This is what i remember. That game pains me still.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
I will always remember that every time I think of Northcutt.
. . . says the man from Columbus.
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 9, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree. As a pure receiver, possibly, but I thought he was a great return man. If we are going purely on WR merits, I would put him with Quincy Morgan and Andre Davis.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
If the best thing about a second round draft pick is his kick return ability, that pick probably sucks.
Hence, Northcutt was not a good pick at 32nd overall.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree. that doesn’t inherently mean he sucks, but that doesn’t make him ‘great’. Northcutt was IMO, in that realm that he wasn’t a successful pick per se (in that he never lived up to his draft spot or became a great player) but I don’t think he truly ‘failed’ and was a ‘bust’. he is in that realm between success and failure, kind of like football Purgatory. Similar to Jason Campbell (who is not to me a ‘bust’ but never really lived up to any of the expectations or where he was drafted)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
If we had drafted him in th 4th he wouldn’t have been a bust. We didn’t whiff on the pick, but we hit a dribbler back to the mound.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
I don’t think he was all that great for us as a pick, however he is still playing. Or rather was.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
exactly. He wasn’t particularly great, but wasn’t a ‘bad pick’. I could probably go back and point to several guys who would have been worse picks at that point and several who would have been better. Also, it says something that he is a 10 year vet.
Out of the 30 picks after him, only half were still in the league in 2008 (so 9 years in the league), 17 lasted until 2007 (56%, 8 years in the league) and only 5 of the 30 were on an NFL team, even training camp, in 2010 (and only 1, Deon grant, was a skill position guy; the rest are lineman).
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
35 Receiving YPG over his Cleveland career for the 32nd pick in the 2000 NFL draft.
That’s a bad pick.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
add also 28 punt return yards and 4 rushing yards. Or in a 16 game season:
45 catches, 556 yards, 56 rushing yards,
41 Punt returns for 420 yards.
for a 2nd or 3rd option playing with mostly bad QBs his whole career here, almost 600 yards a season is not bad. it is not particularly great but is not bad. Plus, he occasionally contributed at gunner.
While his stats aren’t great, he still amassed 1,000 total yards a season and got around 620 yards from scrimmage. there were much worse picks we could have made with that pick.
Looking at the 2000 draft and the 2nd round picks, out of the 30 guys in the 2nd taken after him, there are only 4 I would for sure take over him (Deon Grant, Marvel Smith, Mike Brown, Chad Clifton) and another 4 I would take based on team need (Fred Robbins, Bobbie Williams, Darren Howard, Brad Meester).
There were 9 WRs also taken in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of that draft. He had the third or 4th best career out of all of them (after Darrell Jackson and Laverneus coles and possibly Jerry porter).
He might have not been the best player, but looking back, it was one of the smarter moves this organization made and one of the better picks in that round of the draft.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
You can type up a freakin’ thesis if you want, but if the best thing your second round draft pick does is return punts (not even all kicks, just punts), then that is a bad second round draft pick.
You find punt returners in the 7th round or undrafted. You don’t waste second round picks on them, especially when you are one year into building a roster from scratch.
You want to know why the Browns have sucked for 11 years? Because of second round picks like Dennis Northcutt.
I’m not even going into the fact that the Browns at that time had yet to draft an offensive lineman to protect Couch, yet instead decided to draft another WR. Northcutt was a bad pick on April 15th 2000, and he did nothing over his career to disprove that.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 9, 2010 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Then what is Chaun Thompson?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Perfect example of a Butch Davis draft pick?
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 9, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Epic fail?
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 10, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I still say he lost our last playoff game.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Sep 8, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Outside of the Butch Davis Era, we were able to get very good value from the 2nd round. We got a couple of solid WRs (northcutt, kevin Johnson). even in the Butch Davis era, we were able to pick up good values in Sean Jones and Brodney Pool. In all reality, the browns have actually been fairly successful in the 2nd round…even when compared to other teams.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
Q: How many 2nd round picks have the Patriots cut in the last 5 years?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I will guess 75%.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
This one pick is far, far more detrimental than all of the 2008 trades combined.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
What’s hilarious is that I made the case against Savage’s interest in Russell like 5 times, a few of which before you even had a login. So no, I didn’t feel like repeating myself.
More importantly, as to the issue, make your case if you have one. Like I did multiple times.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
I am pretty sure I’ve been a member of this site longer than you. Not that it matters but you brought it up. Everything else is false.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 10:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Kwoog has been around for awhile, he just doesn’t post all the time. I think he’s overseas?
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
No, he’s a draft consultant for the Philadelphia Eagles.
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I was going to leave that one alone.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
What you put. I was going to leave that area alone, but since you put it. He could quite possibly be scouting overseas. Maybe Russia or Buffalo.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
Or he’s planning some sort of tag-team with Moony?
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Moon agrees with his talent evaluations, but I can’t really remember.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
I think he scouted Hawaii in last year’s draft…
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Kwoog has been around for awhile, he just doesn’t post all the time. I think he’s overseas?
I know he has, and I am pretty sure I have been around longer — I joined in 2007 right at the beginning of the season. I like kwoog; I think he presents the counter to a lot of Phil Savage bashing that I and others go a little overboard with at times. But I also like joking with him — he never seems to have a sense of humor about it though.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Kwoog has been here longer, I’m sure.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope. Just checked — I joined on September 23, 2007. kwoog joined on April 22, 2008.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Kwoog is a larger “member” than others though.
This is one of those quality rather than quantity things.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh? You said he was here longer. You were dead wrong. Now you go and insult me because you were. Pretty lame but it’s typical of your comments here.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Hm, honestly don’t know why I said that.
Carry on.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
And honestly, it wasn’t an insult.
Chris, BB, Kwoog, Rufio, B19K and Ryan are kind of the top council of posters on here.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
I never saw kwoog in the same class as the others. mooncamping too is one of the most well-known posters here as well. Now, kwoog is no mooncamping — there’s only one moon — but you get my point.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Now the question is, who’s on that second-tier of “lesser well known than the above group, but still pretty well known amongst the site” group?
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
let’s hold a vote! someone make a fanpost! it’s not like it will end badly!
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Sep 7, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m all for a “Most recognizable member” poll if there’s enough support. I’d think we’d have to word it carefully though so that there isn’t any unneccesary. . . “debates”, let’s call them, that distract from the overall goal of the site; i.e. actual football.
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing good will come from this. lol
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Sep 8, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
You’d come at the bottom, curse out BB because somehow the biased son-of-a-bitch re worked the poll, you’d get a warning on the next log – in, laugh it off and argue with people on why you don’t live in a gay state.
I’m game.
(The son-of-a-bitch line is all in good fun.)
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Then I suggest we get Chris’s approval before attempting such poll.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
No, he’ll just ruin the fun before it begins.
If he has a problem with it, he will delete accordingly.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
this is a terrible idea, especially given the recent community announcement.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
Shhh.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, let’s try to avoid a tailspin worth of comments comparing members…everyone here contributes in their own right, even if you’re a reader who never posts. The exception are those who troll or get banned.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Sep 8, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Gosh, Chris. You probably won’t even support my follow-up idea, in which the lowest ranked poster by poll result gets voted off the DBN island every week. I mean, think of the entertainment value there….
Never underestimate the powers of Josh Cribbs
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 8, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Like, off forever? That would be funny as hell.
I would just change my ISP and come back with a vengeance.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Sep 8, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds about right.
Don’t know where that “gay state” thing came from from, but I can do that for the sake of your prophecy.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Sep 8, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
San Fran.
That is all.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
This is definitely heading towards a second Community post.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
You can’t honestly be comparing kwoog to moon because he liked Phil Savage.
Savage did a lot of things that I liked. Then he panicked because he thought we were close to contending and he knew if we weren’t he would lose his job. This was a correct assumption, and really his biggest downfall.
Prior to that, Phil had a great plan and scouted well. He got what looked like key players at the key positions: pass rusher, LT, QB, CB, WR, NT in a 3-4. Romeo didn’t develop any of them and had a different football philosophy regarding personnel and the two couldn’t work together.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I think he meant more along the lines of DBN notority amongst regular readers.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok fair. But he shouldn’t be noted as some sort of absurd person with extremely…strange…ideas about the game because he likes Savage.
He should also be noted for (maybe?) introducing us to the concept of the Straw Man, for being a pretty intelligent if outspoken poster, and for using hyperbole liberally.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I also enjoy his crayon creation.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Eh, I’m not a big fan of it. Looks kinda…sad. Like a sad crayon drawing. Or a sad clown painting.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s actually supposed to be sad. It’s from a “children’s comicbook” (for adults) that my roommate and I made in grad school. It’s about two little French boys (Antoine and Rene, any 400 Blows fans?) who are extremely and precociously existentialist… in childish situations (birthday parties, Elementary school, christmas morning, etc)…
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
I can’t dig them up, being in Korea. We thought they were funny, the subject matter presented in dumbed-down, translation.com-style narration. Like, the Christmas morning one said something to the effect, in multiple scene drawings, "On Christmas the young boys run downstairs and look under the tree. There are many presents. They open them and thank their families for the gifts. But one box is missing. There is no box which contains Faith. These presents can mean nothing without Jesus in their hearts."
But I digress…
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
What’s ‘hyperbole’?
But yes, I do agree with that point.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s an extreme exaggeration.
I’m so hungry, I could eat a horse.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m so doomed even Joe Thomas can’t save me?
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s just a false statment. You almost got it though.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Sep 8, 2010 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Braylon Edwards is so bad he couldn’t catch a staph infection?
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions
This one is pretty good.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 8, 2010 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions
He should also be noted for (maybe?) introducing us to the concept of the Straw Man, for being a pretty intelligent if outspoken poster, and for using hyperbole liberally.
One of the more eloquent underhanded compliments I’ve seen around here. Kudos.
by Western Reserve on Sep 8, 2010 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d never used hyperbole in a million years. (do I have to put /sarc/ here?)
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
by kwoog on Sep 8, 2010 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
It does seem you’ve been here longer, officially. I actually lurked at Let’s Go Tribe as early as ’05 before signing up there (April 2006, the Crisp/Marte deal got me to sign up). And I found DBN pretty early after that, I recall. I lurked at DBN for a while for sure… surprised it was 2 years…
It seems like most of the time your comments referencing me are just gratuitous… Perhaps I’m missing the “deadpan” delivery across the interwebs, but they don’t seem to be jokes… more like antagonization. Either way, it’s a fine line and I’ll know to treat them as jokes from now on (assuming they “have” to go on!).
I like you as well DSH, and you’ve exposed many of my arguments for Savage as overly apologist, as I think I’ve exposed that people bash the former GM far too much. It’s irrelevant what’s occurred in greater quantities, the former or the latter.
In any event, as a final comment on the subject, my pro-Savage stance was always grounded more in a belief in organizational stability, rather than actually revering Phil. Cheers.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
Kwoog has been around for several years, since before me. I don’t know how long you have been here.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Don’t make him pull out the dates.
I don’t know if Kwoog re did his profile but I would assume he’s been here much longer than ’07
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
He is saying that busting on Veikune was worse than trading for SR. Kwoog would be biased in favor of Rogers if anything, because Savage dealt for him.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Actually, I’m saying that busting on Veikune is worse than getting Corey Williams for a 2nd, and nothing out of the 3rd and 7th (or whatever it was) round picks in 2009 that Savage dealt to draft Beau Bell and Paul Hubbard…
I was actually excluding the Rogers deal from the comparison, b/c that trade was so obviously shrewd.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
How many of those later round picks are still on an NFL roster? I believe the only one is Atyba rubin (a great pickup). Right now, Veikune has no team, because he just got cut, but he has enough talent to be picked up and may be able to stay on a team longer than those guys.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
I could be wrong. Missing on one 2nd round pick might not be the end of the world. I just think it’s more egregious, when all’s said and done, than the mistakes of the 08 draft (which are brought up incessantly). Again, I could be wrong.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
Neither is good in my opinion. I don’t really want to compare the two drafts especially because we have trades for players to factor in, but you could easily classify the Corey Williams trade as almost the same thing as the Veikune miss.
I agree. that is what definitely puts it over the edge to me. the fact that we missed on every pick except rubin from rounds 4-7 is pretty bad on its own.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
It really isn’t. If you get a 350+lbs NT who can play NT in the NFL from rounds 4-7 in any given year, you’ve done your job.
The trades up for the other players were terrible, and another example of Phil’s worst quality: a lack of patience. I would have been totally fine using one draft to acquire BQ, Rogers, Williams, and Rubin, but losing future picks was pretty dumb.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
yes. Getting a NT late is good. HOWEVER, if you have 5 picks in rounds 4 and later and only 1 can stay on an NFL roster, even if that player is a solid NT, that isn’t particularly good. Its nice to find one player and i am glad savage left us rubin, but you don’t build a successful team with a 20% success rate in rounds 4 and later.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
What is a good success rate for rounds 4 and up?
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably about 20%, depending on your need for ST players.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I would think significantly higher. Not specifically guys having success with your team but maybe with another team. No one outside of Rubin has had any success and no one outside of rubin has been able to stay on an NFL roster not run by Phil Savage
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
Seeing as 50% of first rounders bust, 20% in later rounds sounds reasonable.
Kill them. Kill them all.
Agree, if anything, I think that 20% may be high
A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths --- Steven Wright
Especially if you’re only looking at one year. I would think if you could get one guy after the 4th who becomes a quality starter, you’ve done a good job. If you can get 2 or 3 guys who can either become ST guys or guys who bounce around the league for a few years, I would imagine that would be a good job as well.
Anyone have the link Golan just posted about 2nd rounders? I just find it hard to believe there is a great success rate on drafting guys past the 4 round.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
possibly…its all about how you define a bust. a ‘bust’ could be someone like Kyle Kosier who was drafted by one team and ‘busted’ (even considering his low draft position) but then turned into a decent player on another team.
If we are talking busting in general, maybe 50% of players ‘bust’ for their teams but only 30% ‘bust’ in the sense that they never do anyting in the NFL. these are random numbers, but show that it all depends on how we are talking about busting, because to some, kosier would be a bust, but he is not how I am defining the savage ‘busts’ from that draft, because THEY busted on other teams too.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
I wouldn’t consider a player who contributes in the NFL a bust as a draft pick, obviously that player had the ability to contribute, the team that drafted him just failed in some other area of his development.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
yeah. I agree with you. I wasn’t sure if they meant the fact that someone is a bust if they just busted for the team that drafted him. Tuba rubin is the only player we drafted that is currently on an NFL roster (and it hasn’t even been 3 years; the amount of time they say to wait to evaluate a draft)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
So basically what you are saying is that you are backtracking out of your earlier statements?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Williams was never used correctly under Romeo. Ryan used him well and I thought he was close to worth it last year. Factor in that Phil didn’t care about his age because he was erroneously in “win now” mode, and it isn’t as egregious as people made it sound.
Missing on Veikune wasn’t good either, obviously, but 2/3 picks in the second isn’t terrible either. Especially considering the other players taken in the 2nd that year and the players on the board when Veikune was chosen.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I thought Williams wasn’t very good last year outside of 1-2 games. He didn’t even start for most of the season. We used a 2nd round pick on a backup.
The fit may have been bad, but Savage knew Romeo ran a 3-4.
I think I have always said that Phil’s two greatest shortcomings were not working with Romeo and panicking. Hopefully, this regime can make the differences in philosophy work.
Williams played very well for us last year, IMO. I think you are correct in that you want a guy getting paid that much and who we essentially took in the 2nd round to be on the field more, but just because he didn’t start doesn’t mean he was on the field less. We used a heavy rotation last year.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
The current theory on cleveland.com has Heckert dumping Veikune in a transparent attempt to shift attention away from the Hardesty FAIL.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
You must be a masochist to even try to read that drivel.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 7, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I only read a few pages. Even I have limits. And as bad as cleveland.com is, The Bucs SBN Blog is worse.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
I’ll take your word for it, if it’s that bad I don’t want to go there.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 7, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
My. God.
I just read your encounter over there. Reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be their strong suit.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I want this link
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I totally jumped in.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay, seriously, after reading that and the Lion’s blog a couple of weeks ago, can someone please rate all 32 blogs for me? I’ve started thinking that this is one of the classiest team sites out there and I hate seeing all of these trolls on the other sites when we play them.
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this blog being one of the best. Are there any similar blogs?
Kill them. Kill them all.
LGT is a little more dictatorial but just as good.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
DBN – We call each other Hitler and we’re still the best damn SBN blog.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
San Fransisco’s 49ers blog is good. I used to be more active over there because they were my team before middle school. Less so recently.
Denver’s is also decent, they had a guy going “Mile High University” who mostly knew what he was talking about in terms of Xs and Os.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
That’s an awesome username.
Think of all the poon.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Hmm….I’m actually interested in how the Tebow-mania’s been handled over there…
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh…Bross came over too.
Shocked. /sarc
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I just read it and I am so about to dive in.
Dive in using smart, cohesive discussion of course.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Carefull, they have Lv. 5 Internet Trolls!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 7, 2010 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I just pulled some actual intellectual content on their asses.
I’m expecting a “WELLZ, THE BROWNSES ARE STILL A BUNCHA BUMS!” on every comment.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought trolls were immune to intellect spells?
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
They have a natural resistance to it yes.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 8, 2010 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
And how creative is Bucs Nation?
Once again, as Bernie said, reading comprehension seems to be on the low side.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The blog used to be called Buc’Em, but had to be changed because it was too similar to the curse word and was difficult for SB Nation to market to potential advertisers.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Sep 8, 2010 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Right, but they could’ve tried harder.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha. Reminds me of an old joke that i used to love as a kid:
It’s Halloween. A lady, basket of candy in hand, answers a knock at her door….
Lady: Hello, there! What can I do for ya?
Boy: Bick or Beat!
Lady: Ah, I think you mean Trick or Treat, right?
Boy: Yeah…Bick or Beat.
Lady: Well what are you supposed to be?
Kid: I’m a birate! Arrr!
Lady: You mean that you’re a pirate don’t you?
Kid: Yeah, that’s what I said. I’m a birate.
Lady: Well if your a pirate, where’s your buccaneers?
Kid: Right here lady, where’s your buckin’ eyes?!?
This joke was the greatest thing ever for at least three, maybe four days in the third grade.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
four 2009 second rounders have already moved on.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
disappointing, but I’m sticking to the “trust the new regime” philosophy. holmgren and heckert have both had success, they know who they want and who they don’t.
But neither have ever ran a 3-4 defense. If we’re cutting young, inexpensive hybrid linebackers, I say that’s bad news on the stability front. Mangini is gone at the end of the year, for sure. No matter what the team does this year.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
And all of a sudden, dumping Wimbley for a third round pick makes a lot more sense.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
You think he’s sabotaging our LB corp before he get’s canned?
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Mangini is gone at the end of the year, for sure. No matter what the team does this year.
You think so?
I thought it weird too because he is the DBN Mangini homer.
He was also the Veikune homer. I think he’s still just in the 5 stages of grief.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference in philosophy behind personnel decisions between the Walsh and Belichick systems is one of the biggest things they will have to work out.
It is embedded in everything Mangini will want to do, at least defensively.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Have any Walsh disciples run the 3-4? I thought the Walsh guys were more focused on offense so it would surprise me if none of them ever used a defensive coordinator who was able to convince one of them to install the 3-4.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 8, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah. its mostly offense. the defenses are varied in the walsh tree. some normal 4-3, some tampa 2, some 3-4.
these are some of the walsh tree coaches I KNOW ran (or run) a 3-4.
-Mike Shanahan (running it now, I don’t think he used to though, though I could be wrong)
-Mike McCarthy
-Mike Tomlin
-John Harbaugh
-Brian Billick
-Singletary (Walsh tree through Baltimore)
There are roughly 30 coaches on the Walsh coaching tree. 6 of them have run or do run a base 3-4 D. Not a lot, but some. The walsh guys mostly were offense so they usually didn’t worry about D, however they did tend to have more of a 4-3 base Defense. granted, 10 years ago, most teams WERE 4-3 Defenses and you do see the trend in the newer coaches from the tree being more inclined to run a 3-4 D. Maybe they are slightly less likely than someone not from the Walsh tree to run a 3-4, but their system doesn’t have a base D.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
Yes, mostly offense. I guess it really matters what you mean by “3-4”.
McCarthy is running a 3-4 in GB, but they are mostly a one-gap team. Shannahan is running it as well, and I don’t know if he is going to go the 1-gap SD/Cowboys route, or if Mike Nolan had some big influence on him.
And it isn’t so much 3-4 or 4-3, it is the way the roster is constructed and the way the playbook interacts with that. Ideally, you have the Xs and Os to match your Jimmys and Joes. Belichick likes lots of versatile players who are all pretty good. He will have some stars on his defense, but he’d rather have 2 very good players who give him more scheme versatility than the best player in the league.
Walsh’s personnel style (and therefore playbook), from what I understand, is built on star power.
Belichick is going to run a lot of different fronts (formations), but he is probably going to 2-gap. He needs physical players who are smart enough to understand the entire playbook, and versatile enough to get the job done at many places on the field.
Walsh-tree teams typically 1-gap, and the front doesn’t necessarily matter. A 4-3 under is more or less a 1-gapping 3-4 with one more guy’s hand on the ground.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
seems like the two could easily co-exist. I’d say that Holmgren has basically given mangini the keys to the team on the defensive side of the ball at least. We spent our first two picks on defense, and specificially on mangini-type green sticker guys. So that leads me to believe that this year the focus was on giving Eric Mangini some defensive personnel that he could work with.
As for general philosophy it seems like the two schools have a lot in common: detailed gameplanning, dedicated and meticulous advance scouting, scripting playcalls, demanding smart and disciplined play, and efficient use of practice time. Bill Belicheck himself has seemingly embraced the bill walsh model of offense: with its reliance on short timing pass patterns and rejection of the “establish the run” principle.
"Smokescreen."
It’s amazing how people on this board fall in love with player’s who have absolutely nothing to offer. He was a horrible pick, he didn’t have a position, and he wasn’t going to get better out of the blue.
People seem to think he will develop just because of his athleticism, but there have been MANY athletic specimen who have busted in the NFL. Get over it
by The Licensed Pessimist on Sep 7, 2010 10:13 PM EDT reply actions
And some people on this board always see the glass as completely empty when it’s half full, so what is your point?
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 7, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
the later are usually right, as in this situation;-)
by The Licensed Pessimist on Sep 7, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Depends on how late you are. Hindsight is always 20/20.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
I’ve expressed my thoughts of Veikune being a flop the day after he was drafted. In theory he shouldn’t be dropped so early; but he was so worthless to the team and showed such a lack of potential that it’s justified. Especially since he was drafted on Mangini’s crappy logic and he was the one who dropped him; showing his status as a player.
Mangini and McDaniels have the same draf
by The Licensed Pessimist on Sep 7, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Last I checked, Heckert had final say in the roster.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
This and no one else in the NFL had a worse draft than the Broncos.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I think their first two picks weren’t bad. I don’t recognize the names of the rest. But despite the hate for Tebow, he hasn’t looked too bad in preseason. Granted, Brady didn’t set the bar too high.
This is of course if you’re talking about this year.
Kill them. Kill them all.
Sure but it was still a huge risk. He’s still played against third stringers and he still has huge problems with his delivery…
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Tebow was a huge reach and Bey-Bey was a bit of a reach too (I also think he’s a bit overrated). Thomas is also not the kind of WR who is going to have a big impact and may take a couple years to become an impact player.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
yep. Tebow, Reach. Bey-Bey, Reach for a raw player in the 1st round.
Beadles, HUGE reach. I would rank him about the 6th guard (or 7th) coming out…but he was taken 2nd. above Asamoah, Jerry, Ducasse, Johnson, and Lauvao. I would rank him right around Lauvao (maybe slightly below) and we got him a round and a half later. Walton was also a reach (mostly b/c of his size and potential to be able to handle NTs).
I would rank them quite possibly at the bottom at this point.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
I was making a witty joke on your use of later. As in the late ones are operating off of hindsight. I wasn’t directly responding to your assessment of Veikune then or now.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
You are rarely, RARELY ever right.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m usually right as far as personnel moves. Just in the past week alone two DBN favorites that I said suck got cut; Francies and Veikune. Me hyping Delhomme every since he was signed is another prediction. The jury’s still out on that but people are starting to jump on the bandwagon
by The Licensed Pessimist on Sep 8, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Francies was on the PUP a lot last year, a lot this training camp and was rarely able to show what skills he may have had, ohh great prediction.
Veikune never seemed to fit into what they were trying to do and never seemed to be given the chance he needed to prove it. He was hurt and has always been at the bottom of the roster, once again, great prediction.
Are people disappointed while you aren’t? Yes. Should it be a reason for you to pat yourself on the back because you think you picked two cuts that no one saw coming? Not even close. People saw them coming, but are just disappointed.
DBN favorites does not always been un-cuttable.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t Chris pick at least Veikune to be cut?
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
Yes.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
This can’t possibly be true. You must have agreed with the rest of the hive mind.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Sep 8, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Define “usually”.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I was going to bring up how you always effectively prove him wrong but I figured it was universally understood.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I know we all hate the squeelers, but why hasn’t there been a fanshot about Dixon being named the starter?
Kill them. Kill them all.
Because we all know how it will end.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure what you mean. I’m just saying we posted one for the Ravens signing Housh (which I don’t really think is a big deal) and Ben being out for 4 games.
Kill them. Kill them all.
I mean we all know it will end badly for Dixon, and it’s not surprising. He’s the most logical out of him and Batch personally.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Dixon hasn’t looked bad. This could actually be good for pittsburgh depending on how well he plays. If he plays well, he’s great trade bait, because let’s be honest, Ben’s going nowhere.
Kill them. Kill them all.
That’s not true.
I really think the Rooney’s don’t like him.
I mean, Santonio through a shot glass and was traded. They aren’t doing anything with Ben right now to save face for the organization.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I’ll have to disagree here, but because neither of us have a source inside the Rooneys’ office, let’s agree to disagree on this one.
Kill them. Kill them all.
Could’ve sworn I saw something on this but the Rooney’s are big on class, this I know.
I don’t know why Ward slides though.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the people that run the Steelers you are talking about right? Class seems low on the priority list.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 8, 2010 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions
No, if there’s one thing about the Rooney’s it’s that class and character are supposed to be their key core values. I’ll never like Pittsburgh, but I can at least respect how they try to run their club.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
You forgot to finish the sentence. Here, I’ll do it for you:
“No, if there’s one thing about the Rooney’s it’s that class and character are supposed to be their key core values” as long as it does not stop them from winning games.
James Harrison beats his girlfriend, nothing done. Third string WR does same thing, cut.
The reason they traded Holmes is becasue he was gone after this year and is missing a quarter of the season. #7 still has years left and can still win games for them so they keep him.
They are the most superficially “classy” club out there. They want to win just like everyone else and they make “tough stands” when it won’t hurt them to save face.
right. people can call the Rooney family classy all they want, but the truth is they’re hypocrites. If you’re expendable anyway, sure, they’ll cut you. are you a pro bowler? well you can do whatever the hell you want.
I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough.
by notthatnoise on Sep 8, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t forget the guy from the steel curtain that shot at the police helicopter on the Ohio turnpike.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 8, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Did this actually happen?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 8, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I respect the Rooney’s.
They tried to fight against Modell on the move.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Well yeah, it was in their interest, if the Rooneys sold the team and it was to be moved, and I were Randy Lerner, I would fight it tooth and nail because they are our biggest rival.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 8, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps, but the Rooneys’ opposition to Modell’s move struck me as really just about a respect for the history of the league and a feeling that sometimes you just don’t put money over everything. They are old-school owners. I always loved the older Rooney for being against the move and even voting against it after a deal had been worked out.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 8, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally, I like Dixon.
I was hoping they were going to go with Leftwich.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 7, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting to note that every draft pick we got in exchange for trading down in the first round of 2009 is now gonzo. After one year, none of the three picks we got are left.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 7, 2010 11:49 PM EDT reply actions
Mack is worth all those. Who are they?
Kune and who else?
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 7, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought we took Don Carey & Coye Francies with the two 6th rounders we got, but if you say we got Davis, I believe it.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 8, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Francies was a 5th I believe.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Money savings aside (which were an important factor, I know), that’s a pretty damning assessment of the trade.
Mack alone, though I love him, certainly isn’t worth it.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
I can’t quite remember, but were we linked with taking had we not moved down? Moving down saved us money, got us Mack, and got us Picks.
Also if I’m reading right, we received Elam, and eventually got Davis. Obviously missing on Veikune and Francies sucks, but I don’t think the only thing we got out of that process was Mack.
I would hope to see the FO continue to make attempts to get multiple quality guys instead of throwing a dart at a potential superstar guy we don’t have full confidence in. Obviously i’m in the camp that doesn’t believe we are anywhere close to being a team that can consider itself one draft pick away from being a championship team at the moment.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
Right. We got players and picks and saved money. not only is the statement that “all the picks we got for trading down are gone” not true, it is misleading. Even if it were true, it would ignore the fact that there were other pieces of that deal.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
And that the reason we were in money saving mode was because we were in ‘cap hell’ due, in part, to Corey Williams contract.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
Yea Mangini referred to himself as a cleaning house guy in the ESPN Magazine article. A guy who comes in and cleans up the cap and removes the bad character guys.
He says he doesn’t want to be known as that guy who you hire to do just that, then you fire after 3 years.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I can’t quite remember, but were we linked with taking had we not moved down?
Most discussion was centered around Raji, Crabtree, Orakpo and Curry.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It was basically Curry or die and if he was gone Crabtree or Mangini’s head.
Hindsight is 20/20. Good job Mangini.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree hindsight is 20/20, but i was thinking this conversation started with a judgement after the fact, so judging in hindsight was what was expected.
They gone have to stop sleeping on me one day.. I gotta be one of the best
About 3 hours ago by Eric Wright Cleveland Browns – Cornerback
I understand, as a big daddy come and take my spot type of demeanor?
by mooncamping on May 14, 2010 7:24 AM EDT
Although I remember it being near unanimous that DBN wanted Mack in the 2nd round hoping he would fall that far. In hindsight Mack would not have made it to round 2 and it was good we were able to get him.
I was on the Mack train from day 1.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Chugga chugga chugga chugga.
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 9, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Bingo.
Thank God the Steelers, who were rumored to have loved Mack, didn’t pick him.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 9, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_NFL_Draft#PhiladelphiaTradeUp
Francies was a 5. Carey was picked with the 6 we already had going into that draft.
Oh and the 2 we got from the Bucs for K2 (Robiskie) is still on the roster too.
Just saying.
Oh, wikipedia…
I can't believe Cribbs was considered the second best athlete in Cleveland.
LBJ. Lying. Backstabbing. Jackass.
by SpecialBrownie on Sep 8, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
We used the 2nd rounder we got for K2 on Massaquoi, and the 5th we got was one of the 5ths traded to Philidelphia for the right to draft Hardesty. Philly used that 5th on Ricky Sapp, and traded the third we sent them to Green Bay for a 3rd (Daniel Te’oNeisheim) and a 4th (Mike Kafka).
The other fifth we traded to Philly as part of the Hardesty deal was traded to San Diego for a 5th (Riley Cooper) and a 2011 5th. San Diego used the pick we traded to Philly and Philly traded to them on Cam Thomas.
We aquired this fifth round pick (which we traded to Philly and which was subsequently traded to San Diego) from Detroit for Corey Williams and a 7th round pick (which Detroit traded to Minnesota along with a 2nd and a 4th round pick for Minnesota’s 1st and 4th round picks). Detroit took Jahvid Best with the 1st rounder and Jason Fox with the fourth rounder. Minnesota got Chris Cook with Detroit’s second, Everson Griffen with the fourth rounder and Mickey Schuler Jr. with our 7th rounder.
Detroit aquired the fifth round pick (which they traded to us and which we traded to Philly and which Philly traded to San Diego) from Denver. Denver traded the pick along with a 2009 7th rounder to Detroit for Detroit’s 2009 6th rounder. Denver used the sixth rounder on Tom Brandstater and Detroit used the 7th rounder on Zack Follett.
Now, the 2nd rounder we aquired from Philly that we used to select Hardesty wasn’t Philly’s pick to begin with. Philly aquired the pick in a trade with Dallas. Dallas got Philly’s second round pick (Sean Lee) and Philly got the 2nd they traded to us and that we used on Hardesty and a 4th rounder (Clay Harbor) in return.
And that leaves Corey Williams. If you Remember, we traded Williams to Detroit along with a 7th rounder for one of the 5th rounders we traded to Philly for the right to draft Hardesty (and which was subsequently traded to San Diego). Corey Williams was acquired by the Browns (from Green Bay) in 2008 for our 2nd rounder. The Packers took Brian Brohm with that pick.
The Packers acquired Williams in the 6th round of the 2004 draft. The pick Green Bay used to select Williams was obtained in a trade with San Francisco. The Packers got the right to draft Williams, and the Niners got a 6th rounder (Andy Lee) and a 7th rounder (Christian Ferrarra).
The 6th round pick Green Bay traded to San Francisco was obtained in a trade with Dallas. Green Bay got the 6th round pick, and Dallas got Terry Glenn. How did Green Bay get Terry Glenn? In a trade, of course. The Patriots traded Glenn to the Packers for a 2002 fourth round pick (Jarvis Green) and a 2003 fourth round pick.
That 2003 fourth round pick (#120) was traded along with the Patriot’s 2nd round pick (#50) for Carolina’s 2nd round pick (#45). The Patriots use the 45th pick on Bethel Johnson. Carolina uses the 50th pick on Bruce Nelson and traded the 4th rounder (#120) to Denver along with another 4th rounder (#100) and a 7th rounder (#227) for Denver’s third round pick (#82). Carolina takes Ricky Manning Jr. with the 82nd pick. Denver takes Quentin Griffin with the 100th pick, Clint Mitchell with the 227th pick and trades pick 120 back to New England (who had earlier traded the pick, which they acquired in the trade sending Terry Glenn to the Packers, to Carolina who then traded it to Denver). Denver gets a 4th rounder (#128, Bryant McNeal) and a 5th rounder (#157, Ben Claxton) from the Patriots. The Patriots get Asante Samuel with pick 120.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
Either I’m just that hung over or my head is really spinning right now.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Summary: The Patriots and Eagles are good at manipulating the draft; The Browns and Lions, not so much.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
Thank you for the summary, I got lost halfway through that clusterf*ck of trades.
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 8, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
You made it further than me. I’d love to see this as a flowchart, though!
Never underestimate the powers of Josh Cribbs
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 8, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Just a question that I don’t know where else to post, I’ve got Zach Miller and KWII at TE in one of my fantasy leagues. I’m not sure who to start. Suggestions?
Kill them. Kill them all.
Probably better for a fantasy fan post or something.
Go Miller. He’s a great young TE who I think would be an elite player if he had a better QB. He does this year in Cambell, and we all know how he liked Chris Cooley.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 8, 2010 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree. There is a marginal difference in their production last year: 80 yards and 2 TDs, which comes out to 20 fantasy points or barely over 1 a week. 1 point a week is nothing really. in this situation, I would take the high upside guy, especially since I think he has much more potential to improve on his numbers. Even if freeman does improve, the difference won’t be as major as Jamarcus to Campbell
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
I appreciate Male Beauty
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
If K2 gets matched-up man to man with our LB’s, he will kill us.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I have a feeling that David Bowens is not going to be able to shut down K2 or that K2 is going to be a prisoner on “Barton Island.”
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 8, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Watch out for flying kneecaps!
Never underestimate the powers of Josh Cribbs
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Sep 8, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Why the hell would he say that!?
I don’t mind that Mangini has gotten all nice, but divulging this sort of thing I do not like. Unless he is going to occasionally lie, of course.
I do like putting Ward on K2 in the context of our defense.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Forgive the football ignorance, but could we put Haden or another corner on him when he have 3 CB’s in?
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 8, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
He didn’t say that. I just listened to the press conference and someone asked him whether TJ Ward would be covering K2 and Mangini answered (paraphrase)that who covered K2 would depend on combinations and matchups. He went on to add that it doesn’t get any easier, that there’s a lot of good pass catchers in the league and Ward has to be able to cover them.
Today’s press conference is worth a look for a couple of reasons: 1. happy go lucky Mangini disappeared with the first Veikune question and never came back. He looked and sounded like 2009 Mangini for the remainder of the press conference. 2. The look he gave Grossi when Grossi brought up how our defense got torched by Antonio Gates last year.
Dawgs By Nature -- where Hitler, apparently, 'did some good things'.™
My God, I just went back and looked at Gates line against us.
8 catches for 167 yards? Yamma hamma.
by Bernie19Kosar on Sep 8, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks guys. I think I’m going to put my fandom first, especially seeing as bross said, their production was quite similar last year, and Oakland has to be better with Russell gone and Campbell at the helm. Not sure he’ll have much time to get rid of the ball, though.
Kill them. Kill them all.
First Bobby Engram, and now David Veikune. Looks like someone is really trying to stay on top of the self-impediment department.
Not only was David Veikune the real deal in terms of the so vaunted DE/OLB hybrid, I´ve rarely seen anyone move that much weight so gracefully. I also thought he could have held his own at 4-3 middle linebacker, in comparison to the so highly touted Rey Mauluga in Cincinnati. What a goof up.
Holy crap — I’ve gotten three green comments in this thread. I guess this thread brought out the best me.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Sep 9, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Not all wit is sarcasm.
I think the Browns FO is being slightly ridiculous in this case, maybe that rates as sarcasm.
No, I believe this is the fabled “hyperbole”.
Holy crap, I finally learned how to use the signature option!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Sep 9, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
The Hyper Bowl!!! What happened to that?
by mooncamping on Sep 10, 2010 5:36 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Why am I laughing and recing this?
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Sep 10, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Moony said it?
"My mother always told me: ‘You will see the light of people when they hit adversity. You’ll get a good sense of their character." - Ironic words from LeBron James
For the love of Joe Thomas.....
by North Coast Flea on Sep 10, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
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