The "West Coast Offense". What does it mean for the Browns?
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 15, 2011 12:10 PM EST
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PrintSince we're now in somewhat of a lull, I decided I'd attempt to drum up some conversation on this topic.
I have a very rudimentary understanding of the so called "West Coast Offense". The reason for my post is mainly to pose some questions and hopefully to spark a discussion.
I'm very curious about the principles of the WCO, how Shurmur might potentially apply them in his 'version' of a WCO scheme (whatever that may be), and how other teams in the NFL have applied them.
What originally prompted me to post this was a few comments in another thread regarding the use of Evan Moore and a couple of sarcastic but thought provoking (at least for me) responses.
After reading the comments, It made me wonder how Evan Moore and Robert Royal would potentially be used in a West Coast offensive scheme. I would think Moore would be used more extensively. I’d also think Royal would see less action (since he has hands made of concrete and is or arguably should be used primarily as a blocking TE). (of course all this assumes both are still in the starting lineup, etc. - but this is really intended as more of an academic / theoretical discussion than anything else...)
At any rate, I'd be interested to hear from some of the folks around here with deeper knowledge on this topic.
Some examples of specific areas of discussion:
1) Examples of other teams that successfully apply WCO schemes (and how they implement it). In one recent thread I believe rufio listed a number of NFL teams that use some version of the WCO. I don't recall which thread it was on, but rufio - if you or someone else could recount that list and perhaps expand on it that would be great.
2) I’d like to see rufio, if he is so inclined, draw up some examples of West Coast style / spread offense plays and patterns, and how the tight ends (and players at other positions) would typically figure into them (re: my comments above regarding Moore and Royal).
3) What, if any personnel changes might be expected in the off-season for the Browns that would be specifically tied to the move toward a WCO offensive scheme (other than addressing obvious needs such as WR).
4) Any other answers or speculation anyone has regarding the title of my post.
(re: 1 and 2 - I guess I should have title my post "A request / assignment for rufio" :-/ hope you don't mind rufio. You have been the most vocal commentator around here on the topic so I figured I'd give it a shot...)
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Rufio is the defensive genius around here. I like to consider myself as the offence guy. I’ve taken two Pop Warner teams, within 4 years, to the National Championships in Orlando. I never ran the WCO but I know it quite well. Would love to throw some diagrams up (the way rufio does) but I’m not computer savvy. I can draw up a few plays, scan them, and post them here with my commentary if you want. You need to give some time though.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
Sounds great – thanks!
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 15, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
What sucks is that I don’t think we have some true recievers to run it. Stuckey probably can, but that’s it.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 15, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
A.J. Green is skilled enough to run anything. The bigger point is that the rams wr’s were just as bad as ours, and bradford passed for 3500.
This
is point I am seriously excited about. I think Colt can do something similiar, maybe not this upcoming year but soon.
There's nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you.
- Woody Hayes
by Culp's Freaking Hill on Jan 18, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
I think Colt can do something similar very soon if he has a strong o-line and a couple of good WRs.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 18, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Sure, why not?
Suppose everyone thought the same way you do.
by YossarianLives_InCleveland on Jan 22, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
I really know nothing about Green. Haven’t seen him enough. I like that Julio Jones kid from Bama.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 16, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
This year’s Michael Crabtree
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 16, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
WCO is such a generic term. The confusion that surrounds it is due to there being too many styles called WCO. I used to consider the AIr Coryell/spread offense the true WCO. This was always a single back/ 4 wide (or 3 wide/1TE) set that is based on speed and mainly shotgun/7 step drop.
However, as I have since learned this is just one of several types of West Coast offenses. If you want to know who the first WCO Qb from a “Walsh style/dink n dunk/ ball control offense” is that that would definately be Sonny SixKiller from Washington Huskies. The best example from the NFL is Joe Montana. Currently you can see variations in New England, Chicago, Green Bay, Seattle, St Louis, Washington and Philthadelphia as the different variants of WCO. Basically WCO refers to the theory of shorter, quicker passing plays (the dink n dunk) to set up the deep ball and the running game. It is not constrained to any particular blocking scheme or formation(s).
As for Colt, I think he would translate very well into this system. I cant prognosticate that The Browns will run an offense similiar to the Rams, but I can tell you that Colt would be most comfy in the variation of the Spread/Coryell/WCO schem run in Phili. This is what he ran in college, and would also be the best to exploit Hillis’ talents in the run game (without runnin his tires off) and your undersized receivers could be an asset aswell.
If this becomes the offense the Browns run go for Julio Jones (Alabama) as your #1 receiver, he has better potential to be the next Jerry Rice. AJ Green wont be available when you guys are up… and he has personality issues.
I've got Blistahs on me Fingahs!!
"I've gotta a feelin!
Pittsburgh Steelers to the Super Bowl!"
AJ Green wont be available when you guys are up… and he has personality issues.
Because he sold his jersey?
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2011 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
That’s right. He practically stole that jersey $$$ from the University of Georgia.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 20, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t know if this is sarcastic or not.
If no, I could not disagree more. Maybe the NCAA just doesn’t like the competition.
Selling a jersey wouldn’t stop AJ Green from being on my team.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2011 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
He is Unclean!!!1
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
He can easily be rehabilitated just like all the former sex offenders and accused murderers running around the league.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 20, 2011 5:43 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure if you really don’t know that I’m being sarcastic…but I am.
Did I do it again?
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 20, 2011 5:39 AM EST up reply actions
Ahh, my fault. I shouldn’t post on DBN past midnight.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
I personally believe that college football players should receive more compensation than what they currently get in tuition, room, board, etc.
The revenue stream from college football to the university coffers is obscene and the NCAA is only being self-serving in trying to maintain some sanctimoneous semblence of amateur status over this sport. It’s time to consider a stipend or maybe the athletes could sell off a couple jerseys every semester.
Hey, isn’t that the American way? I got no problems with A.J. on this issue. None.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 20, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think they should be paid, plain and simple.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
trying to maintain some sanctimoneous semblence of amateur status over this sport.
I don’t have facts to back this up, but I feel like college football is in some parts of the country bigger than the NFL in terms of popularity. And I’m sure a lot of people prefer college to pro.
Go to the South (like Clemson).
Living in Atlanta, UGA vs. LSU/Florida/GT/Bama/Auburn/etc. is 10x more important than the Falcons. It’s not even close in the Southeast.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
I totally agree. The problem is the fact that these kids aren’t allowed to have jobs like other students, so they don’t have that cash coming in. Its hard for many from poorer families to get $ to “go out with the guys” or do anything off campus. Either they need to find income or be restricted to campus. A small stipend would do wonders.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Agreed.
The game of college football has become a giant money making industry that the NCAA and its member institutions have perpetuated via the BCS. Everyone and their brother, including the schools, the coaches, television networks and advertisers are all riding this gravy train. But they are willingly oblivious to the hypocrisy of crucifying the kid who is busting his ass on the field when he takes a few kickbacks that pale in comparison to the monumental amounts of revenue flowing through their cash cow. I’m not making excuses for the parents and kids who work the system, but the system needs to be fixed so they don’t keep getting churned up in its corrupt gears.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 21, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
yep. this isn’t even an uncommon thing. I wish I came up with it but I think I heard someone (chris carter?) mention it on mike and mike. I also know (for any Penn State fans out there) that Joe Pa has echoed the same sentiments and he has stated he believes this would solve a lot.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
But that would cut into the schools’ cash flow, and we all know how hurt for money they are…
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 21, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
“…personality issues” (?)
I agree with B19K. The jersey incident is one minor slip up.
He’s young, hopefully learned his lesson (4 game suspension), end of story.
“personality issues”… For the life of me I can’t find any other examples, any interviews, articles, anywhere that indicates any “personality issues”. Anyone else heard anything? If there’s something there I haven’t seen it.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 20, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, you can’t find anything else b/c there is nothing else. by all accounts, he’s a good kid.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 20, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
However, as I have since learned this is just one of several types of West Coast offenses.
Actually, the Air Coryell is its own type of offense. It is not at all associated with the walsh WCO and shares very few principles. It was mis-labeled that once and was called the WCO for a while but really isn’t the same. It is a vertical passing offense that requires a whole different typer of personnel.
. If you want to know who the first WCO Qb from a "Walsh style/dink n dunk/ ball control offense" is that that would definately be Sonny SixKiller from Washington Huskies
huh? wouldn’t it be the QB that walsh coached in Cincy? Ken Anderson?
If this becomes the offense the Browns run go for Julio Jones (Alabama) as your #1 receiver, he has better potential to be the next Jerry Rice.
not at all. Jones is quicker but Green is a better fit. To me, green looks like a significantly smoother route runner and has better concentration catching the ball. the WCO emphasizes good route running to create separation (and for timing) and since it requires lots of completions; good hands. Jones’ strength is his size and speed, which makes him much more suited as a vertical threat in a Coryell offense.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
maybe you mean jones is quicker in confined spaces/out of breaks, etc., but everything i’ve heard is that green is the faster wr, and it’s not particularly close?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 20, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
I have actually heard Jones may be a bit faster downfield, but they are both fast.
Being a little quicker in confined spaces would not make up for the inconsistencies in hands however Imo
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
this was all i could find about 40 times:
certainly looks like neither guy is slow … but green sounds faster (at least in a straight line).
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 20, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Green is probably faster in all aspects of the game, whereas Jones is more physical.
Doesn’t matter a whole lot, both can get open deep. Jones isn’t going to be Wes Welker in terms of shiftiness underneath.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
The way I look at it is a 25 yard reception is a 25 yard reception, whether the guy catches a 22 yard pass and gets flattened, or he catches a 12 yard pass and fights and cuts upfield for 13 extra yards – something Jones excels at.
One could argue the latter may even be the preferable model of a receiver you want to fit into the WCO?…
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 21, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
On the other hand, there is the ‘stretch the field’ factor – i.e. the better route runner with the flat out speed will be more of an asset in this regard I suppose.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 21, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Concur.
Seems like a receiver with good RAC capabilitiy would be especially important to the WCO.
We are lacking this kind of player at WR and I’ll be surprised if we keep more than three off the current roster at that position.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 21, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
We need a WR that can stretch the defense. Badly.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 21, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Good coaches find a way to use the talent they have, especially a talent like Green or Jones. They won’t stay married to throwing short or deep if they have a guy who can tear it up doing the other one.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Actually, the Air Coryell is its own type of offense. It is not at all associated with the walsh WCO and shares very few principles. It was mis-labeled that once and was called the WCO for a while but really isn’t the same. It is a vertical passing offense that requires a whole different typer of personnel.
The term WCO is a generic term… It used to be originally used to describe Sid Gilmans offense (by Bernie Kosar no less) please dont quote a line from a cheesy book or whatnot. I have been in this business for over 25 years.
http://www.westcoastoffense.com/history.htm
huh? wouldn’t it be the QB that walsh coached in Cincy? Ken Anderson?
Read the posted article, Virgil Carter was the first QB that Walsh used in his variant of the Gilman system. Walsh called his system the Nickle and Dime Offense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense
Also, the SixKiller variant (as its called in the article above) is the original modern use of todays most common WCO (the Walsh System) before Walsh even set his system in stone to what we would recognize it as today.
As for my opinion of Julius Jones…. they are both 6’4", Jones weighs in at 220 (compared to Greens 208). This sturdier build, fearlessness between the numbers, larger hands and almost unhumanly long arms make him my pick. Green is arrogant (i have met them both), but as a former competetive juggler does possess outstanding hands, he needs to work on his blocking skills and the system he plays in actually hides slightly stiff hips. Final analysis. While both will be superstars Green will not fit well on a rebuilding team because he is not selfless. Jones (who runs a 4.38 40 and has quick initial burst speed) will combine with McCoy and Hillis to be the foundation you could build an offense around.
I've got Blistahs on me Fingahs!!
"I've gotta a feelin!
Pittsburgh Steelers to the Super Bowl!"
Julio Jones, Juice is a running back.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 20, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I have been in this business for over 25 years
the business of posting on blogs? naming offensive sets? what business?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 20, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
I’m a scout for The Steelers
I've got Blistahs on me Fingahs!!
"I've gotta a feelin!
Pittsburgh Steelers to the Super Bowl!"
Pop Warner has produced many fine athletes over the years.
Nice work.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 20, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
for real? that is awesome.
what did you think of mccoy coming out of college? what do you think of him after his rookie year?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 20, 2011 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
only 2 QBs excited me coming into last years draft. Tony Pike and Colt McCoy. McCoy has good arm strength, was able to make the throws needed at the pro level, displays great mobility, a great competitor and is an all around great person. Pike has a cannon (think Cutler type arm strength), is tall and physically impressive, is accurate with the deep ball and not afraid of contact. McCoy had a very impressive rookie season, I cannot stress enough how good he is going to be if in the right system with the proper guidance. Both played in Spread offenses in college.
I probably came of as arrogant before, and I shouldnt be using my sons SB acct, but I had to speak up about the WCO topic. Most people dont know what it is, and think it is a defined system… remember, it was originally coined as a derogatory term. Sorry If I offended anyone… and no, I am not BS
I've got Blistahs on me Fingahs!!
"I've gotta a feelin!
Pittsburgh Steelers to the Super Bowl!"
Pike has a cannon (think Cutler type arm strength)
Seriously?
I am not BS
You compared Tony Pike’s arm to Jay Cutler. There is no way you are a scout for the Pittsburgh Steelers.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 20, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
ok ;)
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 20, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Walsh used in his variant of the Gilman system
He implemented some things from the gillman system. so did Don Coryell. that does not at all mean they were similar offenses. Saying they both came from sid gillman and therefore they have the same principles is like saying any offense that runs the draw play is a derivative of paul brown’s offense. Every offense in the NFL is either directly or indirectly influenced by sid gillman. the Coryell side of it and the Walsh side are very distinct in their styles. Coryell is much more like the Gillman offense in that it is a vertical passing game while walsh’s system is much closer to what paul brown ran.
Virgil Carter was the first QB that Walsh used in his variant of the Gilman system
I forgot about virgil carter before Anderson. We are both wrong with our initial thoughts because you just said it was Carter, but above you said it was Sixkiller.
under coach Jim Owens and quarterback Sonny Sixkiller, used the "Sixkiller" variation of Coryell’s West Coast Offense with great success
Sixkiller did not run Walsh’s offense. As I have stated, and as it is clear by watching them operate, Coryell’s offense and Walsh’s offense are very different.
Arrogant players have been able to function on rebuilding teams before. I don’t see arrogance as a huge issue. Jones may have larger hands, but its about using them…
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Didn’t Colt run the spread offense in Texas, BurntOrangebrown? I thought he did during his last two years and he even said in some interview that he was the most comfortable in the spread offense which I guess is like the WCO?
by willyoubemycharizard on Jan 15, 2011 2:44 PM EST reply actions
They’re really not the same, willy.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 15, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
(meant to say something along those lines in my response below – perhaps could be another topic to discuss – i.e. comparison of spread offenses in college to NFL WCO schemes…)
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 15, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
It just comes down to different receiver trees and blocking schemes.
It’s not a lie if you believe it.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 15, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Yes – they ran a spread offense with McCoy. I couldn’t give you details or comparisons regarding NFL WCO implementations offhand though. I’d have to do some research in order to do so. Hopefully some of the guys around here can do better than I without having to dig up lots of online articles, etc.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 15, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
I think a prettygood website I use to try and learn more about the chess-game aspect of football is smartfootball.com. Its not updated as often as I’d like but that dude seems to really know what he’s talking about and makes things easy to understand.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Yeah – rufio has mentioned them a couple times and I believe he said some of his play diagrams he’s posted are from that site. I’ve checked it out a couple of times and the guy (Chris Brown) definitely lives and breathes football.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 15, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty informative. Actually credits Paul Brown with teaching the Bill Walsh version while in Cincy.
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
For some reason my link didn’t post – here it is again;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_coast_offense
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
So basically if I get anything from this, is that the qb needs to be intelligent may or may not need a cannon of an arm, has to be able to read defenses and good relationships with wr’s?
the wr’s need to be quick and have great timing with the qb? Correct?
by willyoubemycharizard on Jan 15, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
…and, correct me if I’m wrong, the WRs need to be able to run after the catch and block when necessary.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 16, 2011 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
I’m curious as to whether one of the facets of the original 49ers WCO still holds- ie 3rd & long, 2nd and 1 they alwasy lines up in the same pro set; Craig & Rathman at RB, Rice & Taylor at WR, Jones at TE.
I suspect with todays multiple formations it doesn’t. Hilis might look pretty awesome in that rathman role as he’s a good receiver.
Welcome Joe!
Go Seneca!
I think Royal will be cut in the offseason.
by BuenosAires_Dawg on Jan 16, 2011 11:51 AM EST reply actions
Let’s see if we can trade him first.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 16, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
McDaniels doesn’t have control of an NFL roster anymore.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Jan 16, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Well played, sir.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 17, 2011 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
This should be the most rec’d joke in DBN history.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 16, 2011 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
I know something needs to be done, but I have a thesis to work on. I plan to address the WCO after the draft when we really have nothing newsworthy and I don’t have school anymore. If that’s ok with Chris, that is.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Sounds good to me. I’m no expert and would like to hear some insight from some of those better versed on the topic, hence my post.
I don’t have much free time to spend researching it and have more questions than answers to contribute at this point.
Good luck with your thesis.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 17, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
We need a RT and RG to hold up their end of the line.
Ya must have rocks in ya head to work in Iraq?
Yeah but at least mine are shiny!
Porkchop is serviceable at RG, an upgrade would be nice but RT is more important at the moment imo.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 18, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
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