Hindsight: Was The Mangini Firing Wise?

You have very valid points in most of your analysis unfortuately as you have noted there are more questions than answers at this time. From a continuity basis I like that a top down single approach will be employed, but it will take some time to work in place. It seems to me that they really want to bring in a former QB coach versed in the WCO. Someone with more in depth WCO knowledge can correct me, but the QB is the penultimate in this system and there must be a solid coach behind guiding a young QB. It makes sense that this OC/QB coach could focus on the play of the QB while Shurmur calls the plays. Some will contend that Shumur announcing his plas to call plays has hurt the recruiting, but the candidates they have brought in all have ties and finding the right mix will be essential. As for the notion of retreads returning to coaching I do not have a problem with this happening especially with a young team. These coaching decisions do not have to be 10 year decisions. Ability to implement a scheme, game plan and mentor up and coming coaches would be good for these slots. Plenty of retread coaches have done very well in different orgs. and environments and Cleveland could be the right fit for these guys.

Overall, we’ll not know if it is an upgrade until they get on the field, but Holmgren was an upgrade and Heckert was an upgrade from what we have had otherwise until the roles are filled and the personnel gets on the field we’ll not know. I eventually liked Mangini and Ryan and Seeley, but without a a common goal they would continue to fail.

Looking at it from the other side of the fence…………..if Mike believes these are significant upgrades, how little did he regard the past coaches? Is it possible that the guys who left were very not worth developing? If a bunch of failed coordinators and never were coordinators represent a significant upgrade to Mike, he must have been on relaxants all season trying to hold his tongue. Maybe Cleveland finally dodged a bullet getting rid of these guys.

Personally I think it was a big mistake (see my sig), to talk about continuity and then start another rebuild, especially if we end up switching to a 4-3. I just hope I’m proven wrong, just like every time I’ve been optimistic about a new HC.

And ask Philly fans how much they like McNabb… a lot of them ran him out of town.

The fans had nothing to do with the decision, fans never have any influence on these decisions; and the fans who wanted him gone are ungrateful idiots who don’t realize what they had. We as Browns fans would have killed to have a QB like McNabb for the past 10 yrs.

Wannstedt said. “I love Pitt and I love the city of Pittsburgh.” As a Pittsburgh native with two degrees from Pitt would his heart be there coaching the hated rival Cleveland Browns?

Really? He wouldn’t accept an NFL DC job in Cleveland paying him millions of dollars becasue he’s a Pittsburgh guy? He’d not coach hard against the Steelers? These players and coaches don’t view things with fan loyalty like we do. He’d be a Brown as soon as he signed the contract. Bill Cowher was a player and coach with the Browns; he seemed okay winning a Super Bowl and routinely thumping the Browns as the Steelers HC.

Was firing Mangini a wise move? Without question, no. Horrible move.

The bigger question: was hiring Holmgren a wise move? I don’t know the answer to this just yet, but the early returns aren’t good.

Yes. Mangini was never going to work with Holmgren. It wasn’t a fact of if, it was only when Mangini was going to be let go.

Why continue something like that? This is Holmgren’s ship, let him pick the Captain.

We don’t even know if there is going to be a season next year. I think blowing it all up this off season was an epic fail. I question the judgement when so many other franchises kept mediocre coaches in anticipation of this. Beyond that, MH talked of having an open checkbook and who came knocking? Nobody. Right now the mess seems as big and usual as ever. I just hope come opening day things work out.

Yes shurmur may not be a “slam dunk” but neither was the mangini hiring and keeping mangini around wouldn’t be a slam dunk either. It looks like probably a lateral move at this point and if it means the coach and Gm are more on the same page, then thats good.

QBs in the first are not inherently supposed to be superstars coming out. you hope so, but no position in the first is a guaranteed hit. QBs bust in the first all the time. many just cannot adjust to the speed of the game and because the QB has such an integral role in the offense, it is one of the hardest positions to step in and play as a rookie. With mcnabb too, there were a good amount questions about him since he was mostly an option QB in college and never a true drop-back passer.

Lastly: there are forgotten coaches who were OCs that did not pan out to be HCs. there are also a lot that have good success in the NFL. are NFL Head Coaches just sprung up from the ground? All Head coaches were either a position coach or a coordinator at some point. Thats how they become head coaches. The options often are (and were this year) go with retreads or try to take a chance at a coordinator that you see HC potential in. Considering the fact that 11 people that coached under him or his immediate disciples went on to become head coaches, I would say he has an eye for it.

He has more of a successful history as a defensive coach and coordinator than Jauron but are Browns fans ready for someone who has this quote in their bio? “I wouldn’t want to do this job anywhere else,” Wannstedt said. “I love Pitt and I love the city of Pittsburgh.” As a Pittsburgh native with two degrees from Pitt would his heart be there coaching the hated rival Cleveland Browns? Of course he hasn’t been hired by the Steelers so maybe he has a bone to pick there and that would give him motivation.

Come on man, do you really think this?

It looks like Throwing Mangini, Rob Ryan, Brad Seely out just to get rid of Daboll was throwing the baby out with the bathwater

This is from a post from jaws on another thread. I started to respond to that but decided to post this here.

Our difficulties on offense in 2010 cannot be blamed solely on Daboll. In the end the buck stopped with Mangini. Some have said the team ‘quit’ down the stretch, etc. I don’t agree. The way I see it, the Browns offense in the latter part of the 2010 season can be summarized as follows:

1. Lack of talent and inexperience of the offensive roster (and the “QB injury carousel”).
2. A HC and OC who tried a few (somewhat innovative) things on offense to make up for #1.
3. A HC and OC who failed in epic fashion coming down the stretch to engineer an effective, systematic offensive game plan that had any teeth to it, or to be able to make any effective adjustments to defenses that were stifling the Browns offense with ease by using a very simple strategy of stacking the box and taking away Hillis.

Make all the excuses you want, the performances by the Browns offense in the last seven games of their season comprise one of the worst by an NFL team I have ever seen. To begin that epic meltdown, the Browns played an average team at Jacksonville. The Browns defense forced six turnovers, but they lost anyway. There is no excuse for that loss.

Holmgren looked at the big picture. He saw a team that had back to back 5 win seasons. He saw a HC and OC who oversaw one of the most anemic offenses ever to take the field in the NFL in the latter half of the 2010 season. He saw a HC with a seemingly low IQ in the area of offensive strategy, game planning, and yes, clock management. He saw an OC who might have potential but, along with his HC was haplessly ineffective in overcoming the roster weakness (and injuries, which all NFL teams have to be able to mitigate). He saw two guys who were never on the same page with his own offensive philosophy to begin with but had given them a chance to prove themselves. They proceeded to post a string of utterly embarrasing performances in the last seven games of the 2010 season, there is no other way to describe it.

Mangini had his chance. He failed to live up to the standards that Mike Holmgren has set for the Cleveland Browns and was let go.
Live with it.

You both make valid points supported by sound analysis of the evidence.

However, cosider this. The X factor: Holmgren and his LEGACY.

His is the biggest and ultimately the final vote in the matter under our new front office structure. And it is all about him and whether his tenure as team president leads to success by more victories and championships in Cleveland or not. How many more 5-11 seasons do you expect he would be willing to suck down from that aspect?

He took what appeared to be a prudent and reasonable amount of time to evaluate the team from top to bottom — including the entire coaching staff. He had to correctly decide whether they were going to be part of his longterm solution or merely more suitable for the off-season yard sale. He went latter route and apparently without too much hesitation.

My question is when Shurmur struggles in his first two seasons is he going to get fired too?

It’s pretty easy to see how Holmgren might have made the assessment that Mangini and his staff simply weren’t up to the task of developing Colt into the team’s starting QB. Everyone was on the same page at the beginning of the season and all (including us fans) understood that McCoy was the heir apparent but not expected to lead the team in 2010 barring emergencies.

Well, the emergency happened and maybe we learned two valuable things:

1. McCoy has the field presence and athletic ability to start and compete effectively at this level. There is definite potential there going forward to 2011.

2. Daboll, as OC (and by extension Mangini — his boss), was not equipped to handle both the sudden key personnel change with the accelerated development of a rookie QB.

Both Daboll and Mangini overextended their line of credit with Holmgren by the end of the season. Holmgren called in all the debts. Now he’s backing a guy who seems to know how to run an offense with which Holmgren has enjoyed some success. And, Shamu has that impressive season with Bradford going for him.

From a cheif executive perspective, this decision doesn’t appear to have been all that difficult to make, no matter how you spin it.

Give credit where credit is deserved. That’s all.

One of the things I’m wondering is if Holmgren would have fired Mangini if he’d have known the following:
1. Daboll, Ryan and Seely would all leave the Browns.
2. Daboll, Ryan and Seely would all find positions on other teams
3. He would not have gotten his first choice of coordinators (I’m not positive he didn’t but it does seem like he settled for Jauron and the lack of an OC at this point would seem to indicate the same).
Do any of you folks think that Holmgren might have some regrets?

i couldn’t agree with the conclusion drawn by the author of this column and more vigorously.

we’re supposed to be excited about this hire b/c he runs your offense and knows the gm? i realize, of course, that there’s more to it, but what a lame-ass response, walrus.