Devils Advocate: Why Marty Mornhinweg Should Be The Browns Next Head Coach
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 1:41 AM EST
Email
PrintYes, the dude who chose to kickoff in overtime. I guarantee you that most people only remember Marty Mornhinweg for this moment.
Guess what? There is a school of thought that believes Marty Mo was making the CORRECT decision. Bet you didn't see that coming.
What if I told you that Marty was the only assistant coach that Andy Reid trusted enough to call plays? Or that under Marty's guidance, the Eagles have become a wide open attack that can strike from anywhere. How about with Marty Mo as the offensive coordinator, the Eagles have scored 416 points and 439 points the past two seasons. That is with three different starting quarterbacks! The Browns scored 245 points and 271 points over the same time span.
Marty Mornhinweg is the best head coaching candidate that the Browns can hire. Sometimes the right decision isn't the popular one. These four reasons will hopefully convince you that Marty Mo is the man to bring the Lombardi trophy to Cleveland.
1. What ever happened to "In Holmgren We Trust"?
Did the Jake Delhomme decision really shake us that much? After all, who on earth knows Marty Mo better than Holmgren? Mrs. Marty Mo? We are talking about a guy who literally studied Holmgren's offense in High School.(Marty Mo was Holmgren's 1978 State winning Oak Grove High School). If Holmgren thinks that Marty Mo is a better candidate to be our head coach than himself, who the hell are we to question the almighty mustache?!
I know some are skeptical of Holmgren. But I truly think that he wants to build a winner here. He wants to leave this franchise in a much better place then what he found it in. He has done it everywhere he has gone, why would here be any different?
Say it with me people, "In Holmgren We Trust".
2. Hiring Marty Mo finishes the circle. The biggest problem for Mangini was that he wasn't from the same circle as Holmgren and Heckert. With Marty Mo in the fold, all three have worked together. Isn't that what we really wanted? A president, a general manager and a head coach all working in unison?
This would be something totally new for the Browns. Look back:
Chris Palmer-Dwight Clark: Different Schools
Butch Davis-Himself: That didn't work
Romeo Crennel-Phil Savage: Different Schools
Eric Mangini-George Kokinis: Is there a stronger word than fail?
Mike Holmgren-Tom Heckert- Eric Mangini: Meh.
Why not try and unite a single school, a single train of thought all in one place? As we know, the crap before has been a true plane wreck.
3. If you have ESPN insider, or the January 11, 2010 ESPN The Magazine, you can read this article. If you don't, here is what that article implies: Going by history, out of all the NFL assistants, Marty Mo has the highest probability of being the best Head Coach. Don't believe me?
Here are their guidelines:
A. Between the ages of 41 and 49
B. Had at least 11 years of coaching experience
C. Assistant on a team that has won 50 games over 5 years
D. Only one previous Head Coaching gig
Marty Mo fills the need in every single one of those requirements. Surprised? What other coaches filled this criteria at points in their careers? Mike Shanahan when he went to Denver. Tony Dungy when he went to Indy. Tom Coughlin after his stint in Jacksonville, and finally Bill Belichick after he left Cleveland. Four Super Bowl winning head coaches.
Let's make it five.
4. Marty Mo knows how to work with different QB's.
Donovan McNabb has fallen on hard times without Marty. When McNabb got hurt, Marty Mo called the plays with Jeff Garcia, taking the Eagles into the playoffs. Kevin Kolb is pegged as the best back-up quarterback in all of the NFL, thanks to working with Marty Mo on a daily basis. And of course we haven't even mentioned Marty's greatest achievement.
He has turned Micheal Vick into the most dangerous offensive weapon in the NFL. Name me one other NFL team that has changed quarterback, running back and tight end on the fly and somehow gotten better? That is what Marty Mo did. He went from the Donovan McNabb, Brian Westbrook and LJ Smith offense, changed on the fly to Mike Vick, LeSean McCoy and Brent Celek offense. That is nuts!
What better person to put in charge of a team that is going to be making changes on offense?
You think that Colt McCoy won't max out his potential with Holmgren and Marty Mo being the two biggest influences in his career? I don't know if he will be the an All-Pro every season, but if he isn't good, we know it won't be because of coaching. Isn't that something that we would like to see?
These are not my views per se, but the flip side of the coin
301 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
3. I you have ESPN insider, or the January 11, 2010 ESPN The Magazine, you can read this article. If you don’t, here is what that article implies: Going by history, out of all the NFL assistants, Marty Mo has the highest probability of being the best Head Coach. Don’t believe me?
I read that exact article in ESPN Magazine approximately 1 year ago, but when I was still subscribed. I even thought about FanShot/Posting something about it at the time and then again now. I found it really interesting.
Still, I don’t buy into the whole idea that because he falls into a few averages shared from four other coaches that he is somehow more likely to win a Super Bowl for the Cleveland Browns. There are about 1 million other variables, the most notable being that those 4 coaches had great teams.
However, I would absolutely love to hire this guy as our offensive coordinator. How much is Philly paying him? There is no budget, double it.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
I said Hells no, because it was hilarious but, damn. Did you convince yourself Matt? Bravo.
"SHOW OF HANDS! WHO DOESN’T HAVE PANTS ON RIGHT NOW!?!?!"
-B19k, after the Sugar Bowl victory.
I don’t know if I am totally on board yet, but if Gruden says no, I won’t be pissed.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Compelling argument, and I’m a slightly curious to see what he or Mularkay could do to revamp the offense and develop Colt. Huge question mark as to whether either one could ever be more than an outstanding OC. (…Charlie Weiss)
My first choice is still Gruden. He was successful with two franchises. Not only that, but he made Tampa Bay into a respectable, winning franchise after being a joke for its entire existence. He was successful in Oakland despite having to deal with Al Davis. Give him the talent and Gruden will absolutely turn this franchise around.
TJ Ward... the cure for Cleveland's Eric Berry man-crush.
I have to agree
I think Gruden is the Best choice, correct me if I am wrong but he was in the Holmgren system b4 going to Oakland. He is a in your face guy and is the only guy I can think of who put Al Davis in his place. He is an Ohio native, grew up a browns fan and has done remarkable with both his HC jobs.
I look at “Marty Mo” and all I can think of is what he did do in the big D, of coarse he had the biggest idiot in the history of GM’s in Matt Millen I still have alot of reservations in Marty.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
Growing up in Ohio and being a Browns fan as a kid does not equal NFL success;
see Quinn, Brady
see Frye, Charlie
it doesn’t mean Gruden isn’t the best guy for the job, but if he is, that should never be included amongst the reasons.
This.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 6, 2011 11:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Word!
I cant count all the Ohio Native Coaches on my fingers and toes. Ohio is a football mecca. That is why we have the Hall of fame, 2 football teams and tons of Ohio guys playing all over collage and pro football.
I think we deserve to have a competetive Browns team again and still stick with Gruden to be that man.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Just an FYI, we don’t use the subject line around here. Not that you have to quit, but most everyone doesn’t. Many find the flow to be easier to read without it.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
I can go with that. sorry if I caused anyone confussion.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure the hard and fast ‘no subject line’ rule is a really good one.
One advantage to using a subject line is that you can easily link back to a post with a subject line if you want to (i.e. note that the subject line ends up as a link directly to the post within the thread).
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 6, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
You can do the same by clicking on the time and date of a post as well.
There is NO upside of the subject line!
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Ahh – hadn’t noticed that. Ok, I’m on board with the ‘rule’ then.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 6, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not denying it either; but being from Ohio isn’t an indicator of coaching success anymore than being from any other geographical location.
Sure seems like a lot of great coaches are from Ohio. In Gruden’s case, being a life long Browns fan, I like the fact that he gets the Browns history and their rivalries. Once of the reason I didn’t like Mangini in year 1 is that he didn’t seem to get any of that. As a Northeasterner, I thought he treated Cleveland as his rebound relationship.
I like the fact that he gets the Browns history and their rivalries. Once of the reason I didn’t like Mangini in year 1 is that he didn’t seem to get any of that.
Based on what evidence?
Dawgs by Nature -- where Mike Holmgren, apparently, 'did some good things'.
I’m not stating a fact, I’m stating my perception, so evidence is not required, but if I had to point to one thing, its that he was a tremendous douche.
Well, it’s settled then.
Never underestimate the powers of Mike Holmgren.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jan 6, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
its that he was a tremendous douche.
Based on what evidence?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
We don’t really have to rehash his first year do we? Go back and re-read some of the reports coming out of Berea back then. He made huge strides in his second year, which made me wish we had kept him. Almost.
Are you referring to rumors and untrue stuff blown way out of proportion like the water bottle and the mural incidents?
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
yes. Athough I would note that Mangini was apparently the first coach of the new Browns to actually acknowledge the importance of the Steelers rivalry. The other coaches refused to admit one game was more important than the others.
Good Point, i think he understood the whole Browns story. He improved, if it was anyone but Holmgren over him, he may have been given another year…maybe.
"There's a gleam men, there's a gleam!" Marty
I think he would have and should have.
the world was not created in a day or 2 years! the carousel has to stop.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 7, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I believe we’ve had this discussion before, and the only thing we could find that definitely happened was the bus ride, which he said was a mistake and he wouldn’t do again. everything else was speculation, half-truth, or flat out false.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 6, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, it happened, but no one was actually forced to go. They interpreted it as they had better go, but they didn’t have to.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Right. This doesn’t get mentioned enough. Nobody made them get on that bus.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 8, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
It was obviously implied that they should go. They were rookies trying to make the roster. He was heavy-handed but trying to help a good cause and should have known better. He has changed. And now he’s gone…next victim.
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 8, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
It was never “obviously” implied that they needed to go. Players may have felt pressure to go but Mangini did nothing to apply this pressure to them, in fact he took measures to counter that pressure.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Exactly right. So, if the players “felt pressure” to go, where do you think the so-called pressure originated from? This was the HC’s community service project, correct? On the PC/ socially acceptable spectrum, he would rank just above the United Way key person hounding co-workers to beat last year’s campaign contributions and below your command appearance at the seasonal office party – no offense if you are on your office’s party planning committee. Doesn’t really seem like that big of a deal now. At the time, it was significant because Mangini’s narrative in Cleveland was just being written.
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 9, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
where do you think the so-called pressure originated from
I am saying it originated from the players, their agents, and their distrust of Mangini.
Despite the fact that Mangini made it non-mandatory, none of them trusted him. I guess he should have done more than tell them it was optional to make sure they understood it was optional.
On the PC/ socially acceptable spectrum, he would rank just above the United Way key person hounding co-workers to beat last year’s campaign contributions and below your command appearance at the seasonal office party – no offense if you are on your office’s party planning committee.
This borders on mooncamping ridiculous.
It was never significant, it was Grossi and Shaw and Livingston blowing things out of proportion because the were vengeful middle school girls.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
You don’t have to bring mooncamping into this. I understand that you disagree with me and I respect that.
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 10, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Go back and re-read some of the reports coming out of Berea back then.
Where to begin?
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 7, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
He was tremendously interested in the fans’ love of football and the steelers rivalry. I don’t know how you can say this. Mangini may have been 10-22 as HC here, but he was always a good guy.
Read any of the interviews he’s done even after being fired.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
You do realize he worked for the Browns before under Bill B before right?
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
Zero patience for a proper rebuild. The story of how we got here and why we’re never getting out.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Mike Holmgren, apparently, 'did some good things'.
ZOMG!!! How dare Bill B. cut an over-the-hill Kosar!!!!!
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 7, 2011 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
I thought he treated Cleveland as his rebound relationship.
And then Holmgren said, “It’s not you. It’s me.”
I am effing hurdling you and you can't stop me.
so mangini torched his car…
wait, that’s not an acceptable response?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 6, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
just slash the tires first, let it escalate from there.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 6, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
According to my hour of must see Jerry Springer, yes. Yes it is.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Tampa Bay was not a joke for their entire existence. They had a couple of decent teams with Doug Williams at QB, then Tony Dungy made them a pretty good team. Gruden just put them over the top. I’m not quite ready to say he’s a saviour.
I think no one is the savior execpt Christ Himself
Not saying because he is a Ohio guy that makes him the best choice but I do belive his body of work does.
Sure Dungy had Tampa getting there but he (Gruden) got them there.
I still stick with the fact he is a in your face coach, has tremendous knowladge of the game and he is just one great stand up guy. I belive the Browns have many pieces in place we just need the guy to “put us over the top”.
If your looking for a savior go to church.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
I think no one is the savior execpt Christ Himself
Not saying because he is a Ohio guy that makes him the best choice but I do belive his body of work does.
Jesus is from Ohio?
Dawgs by Nature -- where Mike Holmgren, apparently, 'did some good things'.
yeah you didnt know! lol
guess I should have said Gruden instead of he.
the world was not created in a day or 2 years! the carousel has to stop.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Holmgren gave him an office at the Stadium; and Cleveland area economists have predicted millions in profit from his “Water into Wine” initiative.
He gave him Jim Browns old office.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jim Brown is pissed, claims he was more popular than jesus.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 6, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
And it was only because Jesus is whiter than he is.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Will Jesus be at the next ring of honor ceremony?
by SBP on Jan 6, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know. I mean, other than that resurrection thing and a couple of miracles, do his stats really justify that?
Never underestimate the powers of Mike Holmgren.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jan 6, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
I know, dude has a couple good seasons (even then he needed MIRACLES to get some of those W’s) and everyone acts like he was the second-coming!
"Quote goes here."
…of Tim Tebow.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Of Joe Thomas.
Stuckey watch: 31/30. Haha! I AM SET YOU UP THE BOMB!!!!
by BrownDawg1409 on Jan 6, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
Only one disagreement with your points is that Tony Dungy turned around the Bucs.
by HenryDawg on Jan 6, 2011 12:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Somehow it slipped my mind that Dungy set the table for Gruden. Thx for the correction. It doesn’t detract too much from what Gruden accomplished, though.
TJ Ward... the cure for Cleveland's Eric Berry man-crush.
by dawgtribe on Jan 6, 2011 4:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes you are making him look a lot better than he did in Detroit, what QB did he develop there? Colt can only be developed if the surrounding players are there, WR, and every down back (Hillis is not an every down back, not the way he runs…but he is awesome)…more than one TE that can catch a pass. I dont know…man I have my heart set on Gruden.
If not Gruden….how old is Marty? Maybe it looks more attractive now…
"There's a gleam men, there's a gleam!" Marty
Marty Mo only had two seasons in Detroit, and had Harrington for only one season.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Mangini only had 2 seasons in Clevland and not even a full year with Colt.
the world was not created in a day or 2 years! the carousel has to stop.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not claiming that Mangini had enough time to develop Colt.
I do claim that he wasn’t the right guy though.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
I can understand that.
I do feel that Gruden is the guy and Marty is not.
the world was not created in a day or 2 years! the carousel has to stop.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Nobody in the league has a real every down back besides maybe Steven Jackson. An every down back isn’t needed to develop a qb as much as A running back is. We have Hillis and we will have Hardesty
by The naome40 on Jan 6, 2011 3:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hardesty is a question mark.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yea. If he stays healthy he will be a beast.
by The naome40 on Jan 6, 2011 5:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That’s what everyone said about James Davis. Hopefully he turns in to something.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. And maybe that homeless guy the Cavs just hired can shoot from the 3 pt line, too. That was seriously a classy move and probably the highlight of the season so far.
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 6, 2011 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
my concerns w/ marty mo are similar to concerns w/ romeo, actually … marty mo “coordinates” under a head coach who can probably be called an offensive mastermind and calls many of the plays. romeo “coordinated” under a defensive mastermind who called (and still calls) many of the defensive sets. it’s hard to separate who the one doing the better part of the work is…
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 6, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
right. the man question is, can the man coach?
clearly, there is a difference between being an OC and a coach.
there’s a reason for that.
(McDaniels)
by discoinferno083 on Jan 6, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Damn you make a convincing argument. This is the second time Mornhinweg’s name has came up over the past couple years and both times I became very angry with the idea of him being our coach. Come on, the guy was something like 12-27 as a head coach and KICKED OFF IN OVERTIME. Buuuutttttt, after reading this post I guess I could live with the idea of Mornhinweg being our coach.
5-27 I believe.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with others that this is a very well written and you make a very compelling case.
I guess its just hard for me to have a high comfort level with the idea of hiring on a HC who has a 5-27 record as a HC. Its very clear he has done great things with the offense in Philly. And he’s had 7-8 years under Andy Reid since Detroit, so that’s huge positive and perhaps enough to get him over the hump to be ‘head coaching material’.
I posted on another thread the idea that Holmgren could hire Marty as OC, with a guarantee that he will be promoted to HC in 2012 (with conditions that he succeeds on some tangible benchmarks outlined in the contract / or in verbal agreement with Holmgren). Holmgren takes the reigns until then.
I don’t know if any of this is feasible – probably just a pipe dream (and of course it makes the stretch assumption that Holmgren would ever consider such a scenario). But it seems like a year working directly with Holmgren on the sidelines could be a real catalyst for his transition to HC.
(B19K responded): We can’t hire Marty M unless he is the HC, since he is under contract with the Eagles
I am not familiar enough with his contract or with the legalities, etc. Do you know how much longer his current contract is in effect or any other details of the contract?
.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 6, 2011 9:12 AM EST reply actions
You can be hired away from another team if the new job represents a “promotion” or higher responsibility. Marty Mo cannot be hired if it represents a lateral move (e.g., from OC to the same OC position). I’m not sure if “Assistant Head Coach” qualifies as a promotion, though. (You see that designation a lot with younger assistants who have not reached Coordinator status, to prevent teams from hiring them as Coordinators).
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
Assistant Head Coach
I was wondering about that as well (similar scenario but AHC/OC instead of OC).
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 6, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
I agree, I poised the idea of making him our OC above too.
Any chance the Browns can just pay whatever the contract breach fine is or whatever to hire him as our OC? Much like we see where big name college schools will pay off a HC’s (who they want to hire) existing contract with another school. Happens all the time at that level.
I hear there is no budget, I say do it.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
It would be an interesting idea, but Marty Mo is actually an assistant Head Coach of the Eagles as well.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Have faith in it…
Believe in it…
Trust it…
… the Stache!!!
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
Point 5. Even Matt Millen admits he sucked as a GM. How could Marty Mo – or any coach – succeed under those conditions?
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
Rehire Crennel cause Savage sucked!
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Rehire Butch Davis because Butch Davis sucked?
Dawgs by Nature -- where Mike Holmgren, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Jan 6, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rehire Paul Brown because the other post apocalyptic zombie coaches sucked!
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
And give Otto Graham his job back?
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
I think Seneca Wallace would have something to say about that!
Dawgs by Nature -- where Mike Holmgren, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by golanbatrac on Jan 6, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
side note on Gruden
When he went to Tampa he had a DC there who he knew was good and stuck him to his contract. The browns also have a DC who I feel is good heading to be great. If gruden comes I belive he would hold Rob to his contract and not let him leave, I guess if he doesnt take the Carolina job b4 we hire our new coach.
Even after reading your article I still dont have faith in Martycause of his history in Detroit and I think with Vick he has gotten a little Lucky, the guy still runs with the ball too much and doesnt protect that ball when he does. not protecting the ball when ruunning always leads to bad things.
i think ryan will get the carolina job.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 6, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
yeah I am afraid of that out of all the coaching staff I would love to see him stay.
the world was not created in a day or 2 years! the carousel has to stop.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Guess what? There is a school of thought that believes Marty Mo was making the CORRECT decision. Bet you didn’t see that coming.
That school is for the handicapped kids.
Again, we can compare the Eagles offensive output and the Browns, but to ignore the personnel at hand is not going to be a fair comparison for our staff from last year. The Eagles have at least 10 times the talent on offense that we do. I could call a few bombs to Desean Jackson and have Vick extend plays and be a halfway decent coordinator.
by Roger Dorn on Jan 6, 2011 9:45 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
This is full of BS Dorn. You cannot tell me that the only reason Marty is good is due to the players he has right now. Here is the actual rundown on offense. He was hired by Philly in ’03 as Assistant HC and then took over the OC position in January of 2006…but I threw stats out to ’04 to show how well he had done.
Year Yds/Game Pts/Game
2004 9th 8th
2005 19th 18th (Brad Childress goes to Minnesota and Marty takes over after this season)
2006 2nd 6th
2007 6th 17th
2008 9th 6th (Desean Jackson selected in ’08 Draft)
2009 11th 5th (Lesean McCoy selected in ’09 Draft and pickup up Vick after reinstatement)
2010 2nd 3rd
You can’t tell me that just because he has all these weapons it makes him look good. He has been doing it consistently for quite a while now without Vick or Jackson
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
With that said, I’m of the opinion he is our best choice if Gruden isn’t interested. Not to sound like a homer, but Gruden is by far our best choice IMO.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
all I will say is go back and look at what he did in Detriot. even though Matt Millen was his GM, no excuses.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
You cannot tell me that the only reason Marty is good is due to the players he has right now
I didn’t say that. I said the situation between him and our previous staff is not comparable.
Don’t compare it to our team.
But a guy who can have a productive offense with Jeff Garcia, Reggie Brown and Donte Stallworth can get it done no matter what.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I thought your were implying that with this sentence.
I could call a few bombs to Desean Jackson and have Vick extend plays and be a halfway decent coordinator.
I’m just clarifying that he has done this without these two guys.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
…but he was doing it with McNabb.
He’s always had a top-5 talent at QB, and he had Westbrook before he had McCoy.
That offense is very good and the design is also very good. But while it isn’t 100% on the players, let’s not pretend it isn’t at least significantly about the Jimmies and the Joes.
Also, wasn’t Reid calling the plays for a while there? And wasn’t that offense heavily criticized for not running the ball enough?
The Eagles have been very good, but this isn’t a situation where it has clearly been all Marty Mo. In fact, there is plenty of reason to believe it wasn’t all him.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
That school is for the handicapped kids
I think this is over the line just a bit.
He made the OT decision based on the weather – it was a cold, very windy day from what I’ve read, and he decided to take the wind instead of the ball. Detriot kicked it off a couple yards deep into the Bears end zone. The Bears barely made it back down field – were forced to go for it on 4th and 3 rather than attempt a 48-yard FG. The 40-yard game winning FG by the Bears cleared the crossbar by only three yards.
(source article)
Was it a good decision to kick off in OT? Probably not, but IMO he shouldn’t be permantly condemned as a coach in the NFL because of that one single decision.
Now the 5-27 record on the other hand… I do think that’s a serious question mark.
I could call a few bombs to Desean Jackson and have Vick extend plays and be a halfway decent coordinatorSeriously? I’d venture to say Vick’s recent success is in large part due to his development under Reid and Marty M. and the offense they built around him. Vick was a pretty dynamic QB at Atlanta, but he was certainly never a one man winning machine by any stretch (until his ‘arrival’ in Philadelphia).
.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 6, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with Dorn, I am tired of hiring coaches with losing records, i want a proven winner, Morningenius is not…. Gruden, Cowher or heck Mike just take it over.
"There's a gleam men, there's a gleam!" Marty
Let’s call him Mornhingina, just for old times’ sake.
"Have you ever thought about love????"
by Chemo on Jan 6, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
Mornhingina actually sounds like an STD.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 6, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
agreed. he’s the only one to have made such a decision so far … and i’d venture to say he’ll stay that way.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 6, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
a lot of people (not just you) are giving reid/martymo a lot of credit for vick’s renaissance this year, but let’s not be so fast to short-change the role that vick himself has played in that process. reid/marty have called the plays, worked w/ vick, etc., but by all accounts vick’s newfound dominance is primarily a result of vick’s own (re)dedication to working hard and mastering the qb craft.
vick’s always been supremely talented, but it sounds like his willingness to put in the hours of study, etc. has been the key for him this year. reid/marty deserve a hat tip, no question, but let’s not make it sound too much like they took brett ratliff and turned him into a pro bowler.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 6, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
clearly vick gives the guy a lot of credit, so we should give him credit … but i think reading that shows how much vick had to be dedicated and how much he had to choose to work.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 6, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
No disagreement from me at all (it appears my original response to Dorn has been misinterpreted with regard to Vick – please see my continued comments below in this thread…)
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 6, 2011 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, it takes effort out of Vick as well. You know Colt will put that effort into it as well and I think Marty would be awsome for him. For the Browns, I don’t know yet? Leaning that way, but don’t know yet.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
Amen to that. Turn that team around and go a solid 8 – 8… and you get what to show for it? A swift kick in the ass by ol’ Al Davis.
Good lord, they’re going to suck for as long as he is still breathing.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
by Simmsinns on Jan 6, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Funny that he kept bringing up dealing with Al Davis in most questions. Does he have any self-awareness to know what he is doing to that team? Apparently not.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
Al Davis
he may not have self awareness but the man is stubborn as a Bull!
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 6, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
If MarMor has to leave Philadelphia for racking up more points than they can pay for, why should the Browns dish out the absolution and clemency? Besides it´s Fatmandu that deserves the credit for the Eagles success.
by mooncamping on Jan 6, 2011 10:42 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
I always find myself reading your comments atleast 3x minimum trying to fully grasp them.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
I always find myself reading your comments atleast 3x minimumtrying to fully grasp them.before my head stops spinning and the nausea subsides.
fixed.
by Dawg Nuts on Jan 6, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
That was awesome.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 6, 2011 11:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
brilliant!
TJ Ward... the cure for Cleveland's Eric Berry man-crush.
by dawgtribe on Jan 6, 2011 5:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, it´s not politically correct, I know that. I used to call him the fat man, but that´s contentious with Mark Mangino. I mean, not call him, think it. But then I couldn´t resist the poetic quality…as most know Katmandu is a place in Tibet, often sought out for spiritual yearnings. The fat just brings it home, I just like the guy is all.
I think it is good to stress the positives of Marty but you can’t ignore the negatives. He had 2 years with Detroit. Granted with maybe not much to work with but you’d think good coaching could lift a team with mediocre talent to at least mediocre standing. Detroit was simply awful during those two years. This is my biggest hang up with Mornhinweg. You don’t know if a coordinator can be a head coach until they are made one and Marty has been an unsuccessful head coach. This means either he didn’t get a “good chance” or that he can’t hack being a head coach. Is it better to take a coordinator that has failed or one that has never had the chance? I will defer to Holmgren’s judgment but I think taking Mornhinweg is risky and smacks of the same kind of “buddy preference” that brought us Daboll.
Brownsyup
This was his roster leaders during those two years he coached. He had 3 different QB’s in ‘01 (Charlie Batch starting the most) and had Joey Harrington starting in ’02. No rushing attack, no defense, and a piss poor FO getting him players. No coach would succeed in that position. We have a much better team than anything he had to work with in those two years. I’m not saying we have the talent of the Eagles, but hopefully with Heckert we can get there soon. Also, I’m sure with those two working together previously, along with him studying under Holmgren, he makes the most sense for a unity from the FO down to the actual coach on the field.
Again, I’m not trying to say he is a “sure-fire” pick for HC, but you can’t hold the Detroit record over his head with the position he was in. The OT thing was pretty damn dumb though, so hopefully he learned from that.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
but you’d think good coaching could lift a team with mediocre talent to at least mediocre standing
you mean like Eric Mangini did with the 2010 Cleveland Browns?
I like your write-up and you do make an excellent point, but I am still skeptical. One cannot deny that he is a great offensive coordinator, and he has done some great things while with the Eagles, but that is as a coordinator, not a head coach. When he was a coach with Detroit, his record speaks for itself. He may have had problems working under Matt Millen, but the Lions were not even competitive. I think his ideal job is where he is right now, as a coordinator. That being said, I am in agreement with many others that, at this point, the best candidate that we could hope for is Jon Gruden.
I’m fine with settling for Mornhinweg so long as we pair him up with Bernie’s other Devil’s Advocate subject, JaMarcus Russell.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Mike Holmgren, apparently, 'did some good things'.
And I’ll be right next to him with my paper bag and sign.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Vick was already a dangerous QB, he just had an admitted poor work ethic, any turn around there I would chalk up to doing fed time and not marty.
From an article I linked earlier:
"I wanted him to learn the quarterback position from ground up," Mornhinweg said as he sat in an office at the Eagles practice facility last week. "Because with his skill and ability, if he could become an expert at the quarterback position and play the position at a high level – rather than just playing quarterback and letting his ability take over – then allow his natural ability to take over, I think there’s a good possibility that he’s a special player."
Give MartyMo some credit. It takes two to tango
And take a look at his QB ratings.
With Atlanta:
2003: 69.0
2004: 78.1
2005: 73.1
2006: 75.7
With the Eagles:
2009: 93.8
2010: 100.2
I don’t think this happens with an ‘self-improved work ethic’ on its own.
And I think the idea that his work ethic improvement was all on his own (just because he did time) is questionable. Good coaching can arguably be a big factor in instilling work ethic in a player.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 6, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Obviously his QB ratings are going to improve, Vick already admitted he didn’t put any work in. I think too any are treating Atlanta Vick as if he was DA. Vick had some success in Atlanta and was admittedly very lazy when it came to improving as a QB.
And I think the belief that good coaching is going to improve an individuals work ethic is questionable as well. I believe the biggest factor on how a person applies themselves or works to improve themselves is that person.
I believe this too. I remember him apologizing to Atlanta for not giving 100% while he was there.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I think his work ethic and character are important – never said it wasn’t.
In fact I admire what he has done to turn his life around. You should hear me talk to my wife about him – I am among those who think he should be forgiven, that he has paid his dues, etc. (she is a big time dog lover…).
All I have said is that I think the coaching staff at Philadelphia probably deserves some credit for being a part of that process. I’m guessing they helped him along – had a role in helping him develop a strong work ethic through motivation and guidance.
It can’t happen unless the player is doing his part as well – Vick has obviously worked his tail off since getting out of prison. I respect that a great deal.
Just saying that his overall development can probably be attributed not only to his admirable determination and hard work, but also to the coaching and leadership skills of the guys he’s been working with in Philly.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 6, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
Good points, I was almost persuaded but doesn’t it feel like we should have just kept Mangini? They are both seem great at X and Os but kind of meh in the leadership, big picture dept.
by HenryDawg on Jan 6, 2011 12:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I wouldn’t be upset if we hired him, but the Eagles probably have the most talented offense in the NFL. Vick, Desean Jackson, Maclin, LeSean McCoy, solid o-line, etc. The case could be made that Mohrninweg developed those players into stars, but I’m just not sure that offense wouldn’t be incredible with pretty much anybody calling the plays
the Eagles probably have the most talented offense in the NFL. Vick, Desean Jackson, Maclin, LeSean McCoy, solid o-line, etc.
We already have the guy who got the Eagles those players.
All Hail Heckert!
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I love Heckert, don’t get me wrong, but he came to Cleveland because he wasn’t the final say on personnel in Philly. That was Andy Reid.
Those guys, combined with the Browns’ last draft, which didn’t involve Andy Reid, is enough for me to think Heckert had a lot more to do with it then some may be willing to admit.
Bottom line, he’s got one hell of a track record.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
Maybe Reid picked those Philly guys (“I think Andy Reid has one hell of a track record.”), and maybe Holmgren picked our guys last draft, and maybe Heckert looking good in both places is just a coincidence, but I’m not buying it.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
We should wait until Philly fans chase him out of town for losing in the playoffs and scoop him up. We could bring Marty too.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
There we go.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 7, 2011 3:34 AM EST up reply actions
Getting Reid would be too good to be true.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 7, 2011 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
I know this is mostly a joke, but do you think he would be ok with Heckert having roster control?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 8, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
Meh I’m not sure. He could get roster control somewhere else but he’d be the perfect fit here.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I just don’t know if he would do it, considering he used to have final say over Heckert. I don’t know if he would take anything he perceived as a demotion.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 10, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure if Heckert had much of a say in acquiring any of those guys mentioned. At least as far as Maclin & McCoy are concerned he was gone by then. He had nothing at all to do with Vick.
Follow Bleeding Green Nation on Twitter & Facebook
At least I think so, Mangini and Kokinis were in charge of the 2009 draft for the Browns, so he wasn’t with us yet.
You are correct sir.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 6, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
he was there for Maclin and McCoy.
I would hope an Eagles fan would know when their former GM left.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
thee Eagles probably have the most talented offense in the NFL. Vick, Desean Jackson, Maclin, LeSean McCoy, solid o-line, etc.
Eagles do NOT have a solid O-line.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 6, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Good article, but you can’t play the “Trust in Holmgren” card when Holmgren hasn’t made a decision yet. You’re basically saying “Holmgren should hire Marty because I trust Holmgren.” That doesn’t make any sense.
I could use the same argument to justify hiring Mike Hargrove as Browns coach. Clearly we should hire Hargrove, because I trust Holmgren, and if Holmgren hires Hargrove, it must be the right decision!
"Have you ever thought about love????"
I figured the idea was that if Holmgren actually PICKS Moogwinner, then you use IHWT as the reason you should endorse that hiring. Of course like you said, you could use this to endorse the hiring of Oscar the Grouch, so there you go. Only the fact that Holmgren knows Morningstarwig well adds any extra weight.
Never underestimate the powers of Mike Holmgren.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jan 6, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
I am outraged that there aren’t any puppet head coaches in the NFL. Oscar the Grouch deserves a courtesy interview.
Now that Jerrah Jones and Crazy ass Al Davis beg to differ.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
Tom Cable?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I think Cable got the shaft. another bad call by Alfred. he has been their best coach since Gruden left!
the world was not created in a day or 2 years! the carousel has to stop.
by Ohio Bulldawg on Jan 7, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
he probably did get the shaft…
and its not too hard to be the best Oakland coach this decade…
but anyone in oakland inherently becomes a puppet coach at some point.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
whats with all the funny misspellings of Morgansternig? let’s get it straight:
M-A-R-H-I-N-W-E-E-G
got it?
I am suitably chastised. I promise that if we actually hire Moltenwing, I will learn to spell his name correctly!
Never underestimate the powers of Mike Holmgren.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jan 6, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
I kind of hope we hire Moronwhig just so we can continue doing things like this.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 6, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
Glad I was following along.
Never underestimate the powers of Mike Holmgren.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jan 6, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
“Trust Holmgren” certainly makes sense. Holmgren has made many, many decisions that led to two teams reaching the Super Bowl; and he has forgotten more about football than any of have ever known. He can see a diverse set of tangible (and intangible) evidence to support hiring any person he so chooses. So, if Holmgren chooses to hire Grover (the man) or Grover (the monster), I’d support it.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
Either way, I think there’s a monster at the end of this book.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Mike Holmgren, apparently, 'did some good things'.
I’m OK with that as long as it sings “I Love Trash” at the post game press conferences.
Never underestimate the powers of Mike Holmgren.
by RelapsingDawgCatcher on Jan 6, 2011 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
When I saw this, I was thinking “hey, this also can kinda describe Mike Mularkey…except he had a bit more success in his first NFL HC stop”
2. Same Schools: Mike Mularkey is a WCO disciple.
3. the Guidelines:
Mike Mularkey is 49
Mike Mularkey has 15 years of non HC experience coaching in the NFL; about 8 as an OC (very close amount of time as OC to Marty Mo)
This is the one where he just misses the mark. He was with the steelers during the late 90s early 2000s. the problem was they had a couple dud seasons so they only got about 45 wins over the course of 5 seasons. However, he has coached the past 3 seasons in Atlanta where they have 33 wins (so on pace for over 50 in 5 seasons). this requirement I am assuming is to show that the coach was on some good teams and Mularkey was.
Mularkey was also a HC before
4. Mularkey definitely knows how to work QBs. Tommy Maddox would have not made any impact on the NFL at all if it wasn’t for Mularkey. Kordell stewart also had his only periods of competency under Mularkey. He also was able to make the most out of Kelly Holcomb and had a significant part in the development of Matt Ryan
Bonus: this one isn’t on there but I consider it important. Both players served time as assistants under very good coaches. Mornhingweg served as an assistant under both Holmgren and Reid, while Mularkey served as an assistant under Cowher and Mike Smith. Both have coached under SB winning coaches, but Mularkey did for longer (about 7 years compared to 2-3 in green bay for Marty Mo).
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Mularkey canceled his Broncos interview. Still going to interview with the Browns. Not sure if that says more about the Browns or Elway/Broncos.
by SBP on Jan 6, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
…and as long as Mike Holmgren does not refer to him as “Mark” Mularkey then he still may be a candidate.
by SBP on Jan 6, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
I think it says something more about the broncos…but hopefully something about us.
I think if it comes down to the two, it will be Marty Mo. Marty was a QB under holmgren back in the 70s, and served as a coach under holmgren and under a holmgren disciple.
Mularkey comes from the walsh tree, but not the same branch. Holmgren was a coordinator under walsh while wyche (the branch mularkey is from) was a player under him in Cincy.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Man am I tired of hearing about “coaching trees” Parcells and Walsh both learned it from Brown so it’s two branches of the same tree.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
Parcells learned from Brown??
And you should read about Walsh and Brown. I don’t think you are right.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 7, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
I dunno about the first one, but the 2nd is true. the WCO is in a few ways a predecessor of the innovative offense paul brown ran with otto Graham
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I dunno about the first one, but the 2nd is true. the WCO is in a few ways apredecessorof the innovative offense paul brown ran with otto Graham
offshoot.
Walsh developed the WCO based on the principles he learned under Paul Brown.
TJ Ward... the cure for Cleveland's Eric Berry man-crush.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say a direct offshoot but paul brown definitely had a significant influence in the WCO.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
He was his OC for 8 years with the Bengals according to Holmes 213.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 7, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
There was a fanpost all about it last offseason.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 7, 2011 2:22 AM EST up reply actions
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 7, 2011 2:26 AM EST up reply actions
.
If you were in the NFC west I have no doubt you are a division winner this year. So there for the coach is not as important as your competition
Big test for Marty Mo is this weekend
How the Eagles do in the playoffs will determine whether this is a good move or not. Last week against the Vikes, Marty Mo did not do a good job of adjusting to the blitz. The Packers will be coming at them the same way. The Philly defense is banged up so Michale Vick MUST score points to win. If Marty Mo can keep the offense on track against a very good Packers D then yeah, he does deserve a shot at a HC gig.
by the way, bernie, nice work. i found myself starting to think, ‘maybe i won’t sh*t myself if we hire mortenzweig’ as i read this…
Great! Part of the reason I do these are so I can begin to begin convincing myself of certain moves.
Hell, last season I started thinking Tebow wouldn’t have been a bad idea.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 6, 2011 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
Reckless prediction of the offseason #2: If we hire Morbidwig he will have more memes/nicknames than Mangini, Crennel, Savage, and Kokinis combined.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 6, 2011 8:46 PM EST reply actions
A compelling argument. Or perhaps I’m easily swayed. What the Hell.
Bring on Mornwegnügen!
I am effing hurdling you and you can't stop me.
by JustBob on Jan 6, 2011 9:30 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
no he’s just Bob.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 6, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Talent?
To ascribe a team’s winning solely to the coaching staff is specious. The ‘85 Bears had the talent to go all the way, yet Ditka and Buddy Ryan were hailed as the great leaders of this team, their brains, Buddy’s 46, or whatever, was the reason the Bears took it all.
And yet, neither coach ever repeated, nor have the Bears themselves repeated. Because that kind of talent comes around once in a generation. Too much was made of the coaching, too little of the talent.
This is not to say the 2 coaches didn’t milk it dry. They did. But if they had the “system”, what happened to it?
Let me ask you this – do you recall this article mentioning the Lions? Once?
by Cato on Jan 6, 2011 10:42 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
To ascribe a team’s winning solely to the coaching staff is specious
See; Barry Switzer
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 7, 2011 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
Great coaches make players into stars, stars make coaches look great.
You can’t just take the other side of the chicken/egg scenario.
Stability and unity in philosophy from Holmgren down to the janitors is what gets it done. It’s a big machine and it doesn’t work unless every part does it’s job.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
May I ask: What team in the playoffs is running a West Coast offense? GB? You cant tell me what is in Philly is. Is it possible the NFL has blown right past the West Coast offense, afterall its what 30 years old now?
My point is having that unity may not always be a good thing.
"There's a gleam men, there's a gleam!" Marty
Does the HC or system even matter at this point? Unless we have a spectacular draft/free agency this spring, we are still going to go 9-7 at best this season based on our schedule.
I like to fly under the radar and stir it up.
by 489favegame stat on Jan 7, 2011 7:47 AM EST up reply actions
Yes it matters and it matters a lot.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Fair enough. I’m just relying on my cynicism to get through another rebuild. I do read most of the posts so please don’t tell me it’s not a complete rebuild. I know that. It is however another rebuild, large or small (however anyone wants to justify it), and our talent is still minimal.
I like to fly under the radar and stir it up.
by 489favegame stat on Jan 7, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
I’m so tired of blowing it up. I personally think Holmgren tied Mangini’s hands when he turned him into “kinder, gentler, Mangini”. Then he force fed him Delhomme, then he said we “just didn’t win enough games”. I am afraid this is all it will ever be. I have loved the Browns for three-quarters of my life and here we go again. I am going to freakin die the year we start our 28th rebuild and still have no SB to show for it. There’s a tiny little black spot in my heart that is throwing up out my typing fingers. That is cynicism in a nutshell.
I like to fly under the radar and stir it up.
by 489favegame stat on Jan 7, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
BTW rufio, you have the right perspective and I think you are a valuable asset here.
I like to fly under the radar and stir it up.
by 489favegame stat on Jan 7, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously neither of us know what really went on in Berea, but both guys have said after Mangini was fired that Holmgren never interfered with Mangini as a coach.
He didn’t force feed him Delhomme, if we are to believe either man (and I don’t see why they would lie at this point). Mangini could have started Wallace. The only thing I am not sure of is if he could have started Colt from day 1, but I don’t think either guy thought it was a good idea. I didn’t think it was a good idea.
Now, I’m not saying we had all of the talent in the world, but Mangini’s choices amongst the talent we did have were on him.
I’m sick of blowing it up too, but Mangini’s coaching is on him. I didn’t want him to go, but coaches do matter a lot. And not just the HC, but every coach in the organization. This season was really competitive. We lost 4 games by a combined 11 points. One more good decision by a coach here, one more play up a sleeve there, and we’re 9-7.
Of course it goes the other way, too, as we won 3 games by a combined 7 points.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Unless we have a spectacular draft/free agency this spring,we are still going to go 9-7 at best this season based on our schedule.
Unless?! We’ll be lucky to get to 9-7 even with a spectacular draft/free agent period. Personally, I’d be thrilled to go 9-7 next year. What were you expecting…10+ wins?
by johnnyphoenix on Jan 8, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
this is just simply untrue. there are TONS of teams that run a lot of WCO principles. they may not all run a WCO, but the WCO is not dead.
Here are teams that run a WCO or some of its principles (I will asterisk the playoff teams)
New England* (not a full WCO, but a lot of WCO principles they do seem to use)
Buffalo (alo not a 100% WCO, but picked up some when he was in denver)
Cincy (some WCO principles)
Browns (implemented some WCO principles and will likely be heading more in that direction)
Tennessee (hermindeger had WCO principles)
Houston
KC* (some WCO principles with Weis)
Denver
Philly*
Washington
Atlanta*
New Orleans*
Green Bay*
Minnesota
Seattle* (jeremy bates coached under gruden and shanahan)
So 15 of the 32 teams in the NFL use something that can be seen as a direct variation of the WCO. Out of the 15, seven are playoff teams. An offense that makes up <50% of the NFL playbooks has >50% of the playoff teams. I would not call that dead as you imply
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Uh yes, zero teams in the NFL run “the” Bill Walsh WCO.
Anything you will hear called a WCO now is different than what Bill ran, but GB and Philly are running as close to it as you can get, from what I’ve seen and heard. I am less sure on this one but Atlanta might be running one as well.
Everyone in the league runs some plays from the WCO and everyone in the league uses some principles from the WCO—significant ones.
Really though, it’s less about the actual playbook and more about the philosophy, principles, and the “why” behind what is going on from an xs and os standtpoint.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
i heard somewhere (very solid source, obviously…) that part of the “concern” w/ mularkey is that ATL doesn’t really run a WCO, but i don’t really know and i can’t be sure the person saying that knew what they were talking about.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jan 7, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
you adapt to your personnel. if you have a RB like turner, obviously you are going to run it a lot more than many WCO influenced offenses out there. there are WCO influences definitely. However, they are adapted to the personnel of having Michael Turner. They do have a fair amount of WC routes, but more of a balanced attack.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
They ran a lot of ZB runs last time I saw them, and some old school Walsh plays that everyone in the NFL runs. I don’t know them well enough or know enough about their coaches to give an educated guess as to where their heads are at.
I don’t think, however, that running a “true” WCO (as if that exists) is a top concern for Holmgren. He wants the right guy and he wants a guy that he is comfortable sinking or swimming with, a guy who he can understand why he’s doing things the way he’s doing them.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
The fact that this man kicked in OT is the trump card for me. No thanks.
Call Gruden, get Colt to stop by his house with a 8 million dollar check, and let’s get on with this.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Jan 7, 2011 3:26 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
And then Colt is happy because he gets to spend time in the film room with Gruden again. He looked like he never wanted to leave in that special.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 7, 2011 3:36 AM EST up reply actions
Please Please give us a proven Head Coach! Can anyone name the last head coach we hired that had a winning record as an NFL head coach coming in? Ive been racking my brain on that one…it seems we are the starter team…
"There's a gleam men, there's a gleam!" Marty
Why does everyone keep looking for a diamond in the rough? You don’t always get what you pay for in the NFL. But, have our expectations been beaten down that much over the years. Big Name Head Coach or nothing say I. And by big name, let it be big due to a record of NFL – not college – success and not for great recent man-made disasters like Detroit and Charlotte.
We already got Big Mike as our fall-back if we can’t grab a Gruden, Dungy, or other “Bigger Name.” Now get on the phone, make the calls and see what can be done and get on with it. The rest of these hypotheticals are academic. The guidelines used in ESPN Insider and B19K’s piece look like ol’ Bojangles chicken bones to me.
Lerner must be clapping his hands with joy for fans like you.
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 7, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Some comments from Gruden’s father seem to suggest perhaps there is still a chance.
Interesting excerpts from an interview with Gruden’s dad.
But it does seem like the situation with Gruden’s son (QB / football player in high school etc.) is probably going to be the show stopper for Gruden coming to Cleveland this year. Too bad.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 7, 2011 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
I’m all for Walter Camp, he’s done some amazing things at Yale.
I like to fly under the radar and stir it up.
by 489favegame stat on Jan 7, 2011 7:33 AM EST reply actions
Hey B19K – looks like you put DBN on the map again over at WFNY:
WFNY article highlighting this post.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 7, 2011 9:30 AM EST reply actions
DAMNIT! They always assume he’s talking for real. Remember when someone highlighted the J Russell one? Bet they were laughing their asses off at DBN for that one…
"SHOW OF HANDS! WHO DOESN’T HAVE PANTS ON RIGHT NOW!?!?!"
-B19k, after the Sugar Bowl victory.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 7, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
They really should have at least included the “Devils Advocate…” preface to the title of BKs article.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 7, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Meh, they are not that much more popular anyhow, just about the same.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
I think that one was titled “Hear me out”.
Your friendly neighborhood Mangini apologist.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 7, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
I would like to see this corrected so everyone doesn’t think we are insane.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’m not familiar with this site, but it was interesting to see where they had previously ranked Shurmur as an OC. Daboll was right about where you would expect him to be.
I am effing hurdling you and you can't stop me.
And we interviewed him first? C’mon, seriously? This is obviously a display for public consumption only. It’s gonna be Holmgren’s self-fullfilling prophesy before too long. He couldn’t find anyone suitable and had to take the job himself for the good of the franchise – not that that was his original plan mind you…
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 8, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Just to be clear, you just jumped to a huge conclusion because you trusted some internet site that claims it is some sort of “Bible” over Mike Holmgren.
Right?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Are you questioning my use of the internet or the Bible, or both?
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 9, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
It appears to me rufio’s statement was referring specifically to the nfldraftbible.com site referred to above, and that based on that site’s assessment (ranking) of him, you seemingly concluded that interviewing Shurmur was a questionable decision by Holmgren.
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing. -- Vince Lombardi
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 9, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Ok. For the record I was not refering to any official site or source. I just pulled it straight out of my ass before jumping to a huge conclusion. Thanks for the interpretation.
by JustPlainBrowns on Jan 9, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
The website in the above link in this thread is “NFL Draft Bible”. Do you trust an internet source who claims to be a “draft bible” or Mike Holmgren when it comes to offensive coordinators and coaches?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
this was also before the season. After this season played out, I doubt anyone would put Jimmy Raye above Schurmur, or even Jeff Davidson who is massively overrated IMO. there is also no way that Wisenhunt is still #1. Morhningweg is probably there now.
I do like the fact that heckert was ranked 12th (though I think after this draft, he may jump into the top 10)
These lists also have Rob Ryan at 29th so I am not sure if we can take them at face value considering when they were made.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Uh yeah, I think they have that QB now.
I don’t know about these rankings, seems they just rank the good offenses high. Easy to look good and score when you aren’t throwing to Amendola and a bunch of high schoolers.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Marty Ball
Just went Flat!!!!
the world was not created in a day or 2 years! the carousel has to stop.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Non-stop coverage of the team with the best fans in the NFL, the Cleveland Browns.
Related FanPosts on Dawgs By Nature
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Follow DBN on Twitter
Browns Links
Local Media Sources
Official Browns Site
Orange and Brown Report
Cleveland Plain Dealer
Akron Beacon Journal
Browns Communities/Blogs
The Watercooler
Waiting for Next Year
Dawg Scooper
Dawg Talkers
Dawg Bones
The Browns Board
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
- UPDATE: Charlie Sheen didn’t buy Lawrence Taylor’s Super Bowl ring
- Alex Smith gets blown up by Jon Beason over Cam Newton comments
