The Wildcat is Back, but the Outcome Remains the Same in Browns' 13-12 Loss to Rams
by Chris Pokorny on Nov 15, 2011 4:31 PM EST
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PrintThwarted again, this time by several unfortunate self-induced mistakes by the Cleveland Browns. The St. Louis Rams were merely innocent bystanders who sat idly by as the Browns fell to 3-6 on the season. If we're playing the "what if" game in terms of self-induced errors, the Browns could very well be a 5-4 team right now. That doesn't excuse the fact that this team still has trouble pointing points on the board, but it highlights how they have failed to take advantage of a soft schedule. Let's get to the full review of the game...
| ST. LOUIS RAMS (2-7) | GAME #9 | CLEVELAND BROWNS (3-6) |
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WEEK 10 - ST. LOUIS RAMS VS. CLEVELAND BROWNS (COMPLETE GAME REVIEW)
- Goat of the Week: C Alex Mack - There is a lot of blame that could go around for this play, including head coach Pat Shurmur for the play earlier involving tight end Alex Smith and the officials for not calling encroachment on the Rams. Whether you think the long snapper, the kicker, the guards, etc. screwed up on this play, in terms of players on the Browns, it was Mack who set off the chain reaction that prevented the field goal from giving Cleveland the lead and a likely win. I will speak no more of this tragic play.
- Awarding Game Balls: QB Colt McCoy - Over the past two seasons, I have not been a big fan of Sam Bradford's. I guess you could say that a few comparisons have been made between he and McCoy. If I am comparing the two from this past Sunday, I'd give the advantage to the Browns' quarterback. The difference is that Bradford has a long-term commitment with the Rams, while McCoy will be re-evaluated by the end of the season. If he puts together more performances like he did against the Rams, he'll stick around next year as the starter too. Full game ball award given here.
- Finally, the Wildcat: It was a pleasant surprise to see the Browns actually come out and operate from the Wildcat with Joshua Cribbs. Cribbs lined up in Shotgun for three plays. The first one was a four-yard run on 1st-and-10 from 32 yards away from the end zone. The second was a two-yard run on 2nd-and-10 from our own 31 yard line. The third came on 1st-and-10 from 39 yards away from the end zone, and it involved a lot more trickery.
- The Funnest Play of the Season: I will highlight this more in the "Power Play of the Week" series tomorrow, unless another play comes to mind. The funnest play of the season was Cribbs' third Wildcat play. Quarterback Seneca Wallace was at the top of the screen, while McCoy was at the bottom of the screen. McCoy took the snap, and tossed the ball forward to Wallace as he approached him. Wallace then pitched the ball back to McCoy, who was coming toward him. McCoy had a very nice pocket to work with, and he found Wallace down the left sideline for 21 yards. I kept wondering on this play, was McCoy still allowed to throw the ball after Cribbs had pitched the ball forward to Wallace? It was almost like a shuffle pass. Is there a rule that allows small flips in the backfield like that?
- No Wildcat in the Second Half: Do I have an issue with not running the Wildcat in the second half? Not really, and there is one reason why: I loved the timing of the end-around to Cribbs in the third quarter, a play that went for 22 yards. I also loved the timing of the end-around to Greg Little in the fourth quarter, a play that went for 11 yards. Those type of creative plays were enough to balance things out. Putting Wallace in at the receiver position a few times was a good idea too.
- Defensive Line Shows Up Late: It was a pretty quiet day for the Browns' defensive line until the second half, and I don't know if that is because the front four stepped things up or if the Rams' porous offensive line just couldn't hold it together anymore. In the second half, the Browns' defensive line drew a tripping penalty, got a sack from Phil Taylor, and shut out the Rams except for a field goal on a drive that started in field goal range. It would've been nice to see the front four perform better early, and I wonder if not having Jayme Mitchell (reserve Emmanuel Stephens started in his place) made a difference.
- The Negatives for McCoy: There were a couple of negatives with McCoy still, but the one thing that immediately comes to mind are two plays in which he rolled out way too soon to the right and ended up throwing an incompletion. He appeared to be well-protected on both plays and basically ran into pressure by rolling out unnecessarily. Perhaps that is a side-effect of being pressured too much the past couple of weeks. I was also irritated by the one-yard route to Greg Little on the team's opening drive when facing a 3rd-and-2. I put that on both McCoy and Little; there's no reason for that play to not be attempted beyond the sticks.
- Haden Adjusts After Lloyd's Early Advantage: I never want to see Joe Haden give up a touchdown, but there is also something compelling about seeing him respond after he has been taken advantage of early. Lloyd had 3 catches on Haden in the first half, including the game's only touchdown. Give credit where credit is due -- Lloyd has been credited as a dynamic receiver, and he made a terrific one-handed catch on one play (in which he had made a great move on to get open), and he did a good job on his touchdown reception as well. Shortly after the beginning of the third quarter though, Haden held Lloyd to without a catch the rest of the game and finished the game with three passes defended and no pass interference calls.
- A Bit Too Slow: Even though running back Chris Ogbonnaya had a good-looking stat line with 19 carries for 90 yards (4.7 yards per carry average), it was still frustrating to watch him run most of the game. He lacked the burst to get more yardage against a Rams' defense that had been ranked 32nd against the run, and once again, he couldn't manage much yards after contact. Every time they flash the cameras on Peyton Hillis, he seems to be thinking, "I would've finished that thing a lot better." I do like what Ogbonnaya has done catching the ball on screens, so that is a plus.
- Rebound for Little: This was a better game for Little, who hauled in his deepest reception of the season, a 52-yarder before the end of the first half. He also had back-to-back plays on the Browns' final offensive drive that helped Cleveland quickly move the ball down the field. After naming him the goat last week, Little was a serious candidate for the game ball this week.
- Not the Same: It's tough to watch Devin Hester nearly go the distance any time he returns a punt, while Joshua Cribbs can't seem to break the big one. That's what happens when your team doesn't retain enough core special teams players. Cribbs had a critical fumble in the fourth quarter. He deserves blame for that, but at the time he recovered the botched handoff on the final offensive drive, I considered that to be an act of redemption.
- Special Teams Tackles: The Browns had 6 special teams tackles, with Kaluka Maiava and Quinton Spears each having 2 tackles. Buster Skrine and Ray Ventrone also added tackles.
- Business as Usual: It was a big day for our outside linebackers. Scott Fujita tipped a pass from Bradford in the second quarter and intercepted it, setting the Browns up at midfield. It led to a Cleveland field goal. He also defended another pass during the game. Chris Gocong forced a strip on running back Steven Jackson to end a drive that saw the Rams driving (with the lead) to start the third quarter. It set the tempo for giving the Browns the advantage in field position most of the second half.
- Brownies: Tight end Ben Watson wanted to out-do Lloyd, so he made an awesome one-handed snag of his own...I thought tight end Evan Moore should have been flagged for hands to the face, but the defender on the play should have been flagged for an offsetting pass interference...cornerback Sheldon Brown missed a tackle on a third-down play in the second half that left me shaking my head...even though it worked, I did not care for the 3rd-and-2 handoff to Owen Marecic that took place just two plays prior to the Smith situation...I was a bit surprised to see the Browns go 0-of-4 in the red zone, because it had actually been a strong suit for this team up until this point.
Up next, the Browns take on the Jacksonville Jaguars at home. Our record isn't good, but hopefully this team still keeps working hard so they don't end up looking like a complete embarrassment by the time their division games come up.
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The wildcat was nice, but I’d still like to see a drive where Cribbs just lines up as the running back.
Dawgs By Nature: Where we're about one loss away from Jonestowning ourselves.
agreed, I think cribbs with a FB can be dangerous. he is very good at making the cut upfield and would be nice if we had Marecic sealing a guy to the outside.
"Call Kenny Loggins, cuz you're in the Danger Zone!!!"
by Gabe Durrant on Nov 15, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
I like Cribbs with the ball in his hands. He is fast and shifty and it takes a solid tackle to bring him down. But I don’t think he would do well running between the tackles unless our line to open up a decent hole to get him started. I just checked my Magic 8-Ball on that what-if and the response was, “With Pinkston and Lauvao? Are you f—king kidding me?” I took that as a no. So unless they are going to try and get him outside (which would quickly become predictable) I don’t think it would bear fruit for very long. I would reconsider all of this if we had last year’s O-line.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
That is why I have said before Cribbs is Metcalf all over again. Only issue is the ppl in charge of this team don’t understand that. Line him up as a HB sweaps,toss,swing pass,screens and motion to WR would work awsome for him. He could run between the tackles but you have to toss that in every once in a while. The ablity for himt o get out side and do damage would open the middle up as well. With that it gives the O a threat that now you have to count for. Just think if Hills can get back on the field lining both up in the back field motion one out of the back filed and make the other team pick one or the other to defend. This team has the players they are just not used right. I would love it if Cribbs was used like Metcalf was.
by Brownsfan4ever on Nov 15, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
no I don’t like him between the tackles either, I would probabaly want a toss to the left as a go to play.
"Call Kenny Loggins, cuz you're in the Danger Zone!!!"
by Gabe Durrant on Nov 16, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
rb isn’t really a position you just toss someone into for the first time in his life midway through the season as a professional. i think they’re doing the right things as far as getting the ball in his hands.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
You really think McCoy’s effort and not being able to put the ball in the endzone against a defense with some players that are third and fourth stringers was accomplishment from McCoy??
McCoy has to get the ball in the endzone. This is sickening. If he can’t do it against the RAMS of all teams, how will he ever do it against the Ravens, Steelers and now the Bengals?
Look at the Rams-Saints tape. They made Drew Brees look bad for 59 minutes.
Your McCoy hating is almost vendetta like.
by Bernie19Kosar on Nov 15, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Look Why can’t I have an opinion? Colt McCoy has not had this team score a meaningful touchdown since September 25th when they beat Miami. Every other game they scored touchdowns in the game was in the fourth quarter and the game was out of reach.
10/2 Scored at TD with 11:36 to go in 4th losing to Tennessee 31-6 at the time,
10/16 Scored a TD with 1:05 to go in 4th losing to Oakland 20-10 at the time,
10/23 NO TOUCHDOWNS SCORED against Seattle
10/30 Scored a TD with 6 minutes to go in the 4th losing to San Fran 17-3 at the time
11/6 Scored a TD with 4:47 to go in the 4th losing to Houston 30-6 at the time
11/13 NO TOUCHDOWNS SCORED AGAINST RAMS
The offense has score 131 total points TIED for 3rd worst in the league.
Total yards on offense the Browns are 29th
Total points per game the Browns are 29th
Passing offense is averaging a weak 220 yards per game
So to me it seems that these are facts, so what is wrong with my opinion. DO I HAVE TO LIKE HIM? Why cant I state the obvious. I cant help it you dont wish it to be so. Colt McCoy is not getting it done, He has had a year and half of playing now (did not say starting) and he is worse this year than last year when it comes to being able to move the team. I am tired of hearing no one is blocking, NO ONE blocked for Cutler last year and he got the Bears (with Devin Hester as a receiver, who blows as a receiver) into the NFC Championship. Right now we may win 2 more games if the sun aligns with the stars.
Colt is a great guy but he is not getting it done and people making excuses for him is getting old. Shurmur is ok to take his head off every week or crying about the horrible blocking of the right side of the O-Line and that is said every week, BUT please dont touch Colt McCoy who was a great college quarterback but to this point in his NFL career SUCKS and is one of the major reasons we blow. A quality quarterback and this team is .500 at worst in my opinion.
It is that, my opinion, I read your opinions which are the same every week, and do attack you. It is not a vendetta it is fact McCoy is awful right now.
Are you familiar with the use of the subject line?
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 15, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
About 80% of your comments are slams on Colt McCoy in one way or another. You made your mind up about McCoy a long time ago. You’ve gone to great lengths here to slam him once again, after what was probably his best game of the season. It gets old.
I mentioned the subject line because when you use the subject line it enables readers to collapse your comment, which is just yet another long winded McCoy bashing rant.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 15, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
So what? I have legitmate points. Why cant I type them? Why are they causing you so much of a problem? We are now excited that a second year pro scored 12 points and no touchdowns against the Rams at home? Like this is some kind of break through? Look at what I typed and maybe say to yourself , you know what maybe he is right, McCoy is not leading this team’s offense to anything productive.
I dont care it gets old for you. Should I check in with you before I give a comment? The biggest problem on this team is McCoy ability to move this team and Shurmur.
I caught crap last year when they picked up Delhomme. I was too negative, I wasn’t giving him a chance. All I did was rant about Delhomme, well I was right then too.
Maybe it is you that cant see what is wrong with this team.
I respect Pokorny’s points, but again I would have given the game ball again to Dawson, he made four field goals in a swirling wind. THe last field goal attempt had nothing to do with his failure. I said that last week about giving Dawson the game ball then and Chris said I have already given Dawson game balls so he tries to spread it around. I said oh ok I understand and that was it. He has his opinon and wrote about it.
I hate this “why can’t I have an opinion” stuff when somebody gets criticized. You can talk all you want, it doesn’t mean anyone has to listen or agree.
by Legoman0721 on Nov 15, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t have a problem with you criticizing Colt, I have done the same, but do you ever ask yourself, hey, if he had better protection he might do better, or if his receivers ran the right routes would he do better, or if his receivers went over the top of a DB he might throw a TD?
I have plenty of complaints about Colt, but I also see that he threw up a pass to Evan Moore who is supposed to be like our Gates or Gonzales and those guys would have gone over the top to make the catch while Moore was falling backwards and swatting a DBs facemask instead of aggressively going after the ball in the end zone. It just isn’t as simple as blaming one guy. Yes Colt could have thrown it 2 yards deeper and Moore may have caught it, but at the same time, that sort of accuracy is ridiculous and its a better bet to ask your receiver to catch anything within a 3 yard radius, especially when they physically dominate every one around them.
Honestly I think people think of Colt McCoy in a wide open college setting. Texas was bigger and faster than almost every team they played with Colt McCoy as their quarterback. It was more like the CFL football than NFL football. Receivers were wide open and the backs out of the back field were easier to dump off to and gain yards against college level defenses. THe NFL is all about speed. The speed of the players, the speed of the games, the speed of the plays and making decisions quickly and correctly. In college he had way more time and it was a level where he could feel comfortable and succeed. In the NFL I think the game is too fast for him, and he doesn’t have the time to see the whole field. I think he is too small, and his arm is not strong enough and he is not consistent on the deeper routes. It was why he slid so far in the draft. He is going to struggle in the NFL as a quarterback.
To your points, YES I think with more time and better receivers, especially with better protection, he would be able to move this team. How successful he would be I am not sure. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT, but I am still convinced that even with all that he may still be unable to get this team to where we want it to be. . I would say Colt has a chance to be a Doug Flutie type of quarterback more than a Drew Brees. Flutie was a decent quarterback but not a quarterback that was going to ever lead a team in the NFL to where it wanted to be. HE WAS GREAT IN CANADA (maybe the greatest in the CFL ever, well him and Warren Moon) but just never made it in the NFL. I see a lot of similarities there. In actuallity, Colt McCoy would do well to be as good as Flutie, and I dont think that will ever happen.
I guess all I am saying is dont kid ourselves Colt McCoy is a major reason we are not able to have an offense that moves the ball. I think the quicker we find another NFL type quarterback, (taller, bigger arm, sees the field better) the quicker we have a chance. THAT BEING SAID if Shurmur and Holmgren can get COLT McCOY to move this team and be a threat on offense I will eat my words and be happy to do so. If they could win enough games with Colt McCoy to make the playoffs next year and be competitive I will be unbelievably happy and say I was wrong.
OK can we agree on this the right side of the Offensive Line SUCKS!
Am I th only one that didnt think Delhomme was a complete bust last year? He had a good game in TB week 1, but had a high ankle sprain the rest of the year limiting his mobility. I dont know if youve had a high ankle sprain, but just standing o it hurts (bc the lig. strained is the one that prevents your tib/fib from separating over you ankle essentially). Also, it seems for much of this season that Colt would have benefited with a veteran mentor.
I am probably the biggest Delhomme defender you will find here and even I think he was very bad.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 16, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
delhomme was historically awful last year.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Am I th only one that didnt think Delhomme was a complete bust last year?
Delhomme sucked beyond belief.
by Bernie19Kosar on Nov 16, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
He still had the mind game I guess for the game is what I was trying to say. He new what he needed to do, but physically could not perform it anymore (be it with his arm or feet). But I think he helped McCoy a lot in the last 8 games, and I think he would be helping McCoy learn the game better now even.
there’s no question in my mind colt benefited from having delhomme around the facility last year as a mentor. but as a quarterback, you would have been better than delhomme in 2010.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
you can type them, the point is that some people here are getting really tired of having to read them and deal with them.
basically, its to the point, where its close to you becoming a nuisance with these
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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I have generally skipped over them recently.
so your thought is “sure, I should be a nuisance…people can just ignore me”.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I’m just tired of reading every single one of your comments that does nothing but blame Colt for every single flaw of this team.
No one is saying Colt is playing well. But you putting it in every single comment is tiresome.
We understand your viewpoint.
by Bernie19Kosar on Nov 15, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
dont read it. Or maybe offer a rebuttal and show why maybe I am wrong. I think there is the problem you know I am right. He is awful. SO what.
No one is saying Colt is playing well. But you putting it in every single comment is tiresome.
Let’s try this again.
by Bernie19Kosar on Nov 15, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You see, his problem is that you need to see that a second time because your comments seem to completely lack acknowledgement of what he’s actually written.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I dont have a problem, you all just dont like that I think McCoy is a problem. For a football post I see alot of stupid crap with cartoons and stupid sayings and I think they are idiotic but I just pass them by. THe problem is you all want McCoy to be better than he is. If I said Lauvao, or Pashos sucks, NO ONE would bitch if I wrote it 2000 times. I have reasons and stats to back my opinion on Colt and every week he proves my point.
I said the same about Delhomme and caught the same crap.
All I get is stop saying it , or ok enough. I have not heard one thing to prove I am wrong about McCoy.
PS. By the way your little band there sucks
If I said Lauvao, or Pashos sucks, NO ONE would bitch if I wrote it 2000 times
Yes, actually we would bitch about that as well.
Maybe this explains it better: You sound like a broken record. There are a myriad of other topics that are continually discussed on this blog about the Cleveland Browns and the AFC (and even other topics, believe it or not).
The good bloggers around here contribute to the discussion on many many topics, instead of repeating the one opinion they have about one thing over and over and over again with every comment.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
This. I’m just tired of the wailing and gnashing of teeth over Colt in general, feels like it’s all we discuss these days.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Nov 16, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Over and over and over again?
(Gratuitous stupid crap)
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
No one is saying Colt is playing well. But you putting it in every single comment is tiresome.
(also, I am not in a band, so…?)
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
(also, I am not in a band, so…?)
There’s a band called Rufio. New school “punk”/pop. Blah.
by mister serious on Nov 16, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I dont have a problem
said the joker to the thief.
PS. By the way your little band there sucks
Rufio is in a band?!?!?
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I think if everyone knew you were right, there would be less animosity.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I think you guys are being a little hard on champ here, while repetitive, a post like this one I replied to seems very valid to me.
He’s not being criticized for one post. He’s being criticized because he sounds like a broken record. His primary contribution to DBN are re-hashed permutations of his explanations of how and why Colt McCoy sucks as a quarterback. He has very little else to say about the Browns.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
Wrong. Maybe you haven’t read all of my post. I am just contending that we need a better quarterback. When I said we should draft Luck if we have a chance or a bigger stronger armed quarterback , I was jumped all over. It is about you not liking I think McCoy cant cut it.
Look I wont comment on McCoy lack of NFL skill anymore. You can all wear your number 12 Jersey you bought and hope it turns around. But if the offense sucks and he has a horrible game he is and the offense is fair game. If he has a crappy game I will point it out if I want.
I have been complimenting Dawson in past weeks, I have talked about the we have enough talent to win with this team or at least be competitive. Where is that given credit? I have said I liked Jauron and Love Heckert and who he has drafted. Are you not reading those post?
If you dont agree with me on Colt McCoy then that is your deal, but NONE of you have plotted out anything to change anyone’s mind on how I am wrong about overstating the obvious. I like Colt McCoy and hope he does well, really I do.
You all just like to pick on one guy like you are teenagers in a treehouse and trying to boot one guy out of your club.
Last thing I like reading all of your post (cartoons and pictures aside). I like Rufio diagrams and break down of plays, and Bernie19Kosar analysis, even at times you burntorangeandbrown and your opinion, and Chris Pokorny does us all a service with his writting. I also respect Roger Dorn opinions, once or twice I have not agreed with his thought but he has explained his point and we go from there.
OK no more Colt Sucks, well unless he blows a game…
I have no problem with you pointing out specifics on occasion if Colt plays badly (or expanding on it to discuss the draft, etc.). It just seemed to me (and obviously a couple of others) that you were getting overly repetitive about it.
Enough has been said though at this point. Perhaps I’ve overdone it a bit with the piling on – apologies if that is the case. You seem like a smart guy so I encourage you to continue posting on any and all topics that you want to.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Just FYI, when I call you out on your Colt Sucks! posts, I’m just teasing you mostly and I’m pretty sure nobody here wants you kicked out of anywhere. Personally, I really don’t care one way or another about Colt, I just want a really good QB and I’m not sure that we can draft one that would really be better than Colt given our line and receivers right now. I also think Colt could be great given more time, decent protection and at least 1 legit deep threat. A running game would help too. I’m definitely going to hold judgement on him overall as a QB until at least the end of the year. I think if you pointed out specific instances of Colt sucking you would find a more receptive audience because most of us are still trying to figure out if its the chicken or the egg with this team and any insight you can provide would be helpful.
really, I am not trying to pic on anyone. I just find the subject very boring because its been overdone here.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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since he brings up bands, he is like a band whose songs all sound the same. The first few times its fine to listen to, but after the 100th song, you want to bang your head against a wall.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Which is interesting because people said the same stuff to you when you first joined. Let’s give him a chance to settle in like we did with you.
I actually changed subjects however.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
True, you managed to touch every subject.
by Roger Dorn on Nov 16, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
at least I mixed it up. and after being confronted by BB in my first couple weeks, I legitimately tried to change (though once every couple months I’d get onto a subject and be really stupid and hard-headed)
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I would classify The Ramones here, and a lot of early (and even more modern) punk. They would rely on a few chords, have the exact same style, and play everything almost the same.
AC/DC borders on that, especially in the sense that they don’t deviate much from their origins (blues rock with a very hard edge), but they mix it up enough for me personally so I don’t get to that state.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I think champ as about as many posts talking about Colt as others have posted talking about how bad the Head Coach’s press conferences are, or how bad our WRs our, or how bad the line is. The difference I see is that nobody disputes those things while everytime the topic of Colt comes up, there’s someone defending him and usually Champ and others saying they don’t think he can get the job done.
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
Also I haven’t seen much of the Colt sucks from champ in awhile. Most of his posts lately have been very detailed in explaining his position. I just think many were rubbed the wrong way by his initial posts and have just decided to label him a one trick pony which isn’t fair.
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
Dorn thanks for the line and support. I very much respect your opinion, always have. I know they all like to fight it out and it is ok, that is why there is a forum here. It is really the only thing us Browns’ Fans have is to talk, is about our misery.
No one would be happier than me if I am wrong about McCoy.
I think the pass to Little should have been a TD. That one was on Little – but I really liked how the youngster played. Brain cramp on the 18 inch pattern on 3rd and 1 – but he did well.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
by realmccoy on Nov 15, 2011 6:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think the pass to Little should have been a TD. That one was on Little – but I really liked how the youngster played. Brain cramp on the 18 inch pattern on 3rd and 1 – but he did well.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
by realmccoy on Nov 15, 2011 6:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
How WASNT it on little? He didnt go 2 yards before he hooked on a a 3rd and 2, and got brought down behind the line.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Nov 16, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, the first one. Yeah, I don’t know how that was “on” anyone. He made the catch and was then tackled.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Nov 16, 2011 9:15 AM EST up reply actions
I think the pass to Little should have been a TD. That one was on Little – but I really liked how the youngster played. Brain cramp on the 18 inch pattern on 3rd and 1 – but he did well.
Dawgs By Nature: Where we're about one loss away from Jonestowning ourselves.
I think the pass to Little should have been a TD. That one was on Little – but I really liked how the youngster played. Brain cramp on the 18 inch pattern on 3rd and 1 – but he did well.
by HenryDawg on Nov 15, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
This was awesome.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 15, 2011 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
One of the best repeating post memes I’ve ever seen. Hi-larious.
by Legoman0721 on Nov 15, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, I figured everyone else were doing real work or something positive for society so I stepped up.
Good man.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 16, 2011 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
Wow.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Nov 16, 2011 9:15 AM EST up reply actions
The Case for Colt:
2011 Game-Winning Drives
1. Eli Manning · NYG 5
2. Alex Smith · SFO 4
3. Andy Dalton · CIN 3
Drew Brees · NOR 3
5. Colt McCoy · CLE 2
Matthew Stafford · DET 2
Mark Sanchez · NYJ 2
Matt Ryan · ATL 2
Tony Romo · DAL 2
Josh Freeman · TAM 2
Joe Flacco · BAL 2
Ryan Fitzpatrick · BUF 2
Matt Cassel · KAN 2
2011 Pass Intercept. %
1. Aaron Rodgers · GNB 1.0%
2. Donovan McNabb · MIN 1.3%
Alex Smith · SFO 1.3%
4. Sam Bradford · STL 1.6%
5. Colt McCoy · CLE 1.8%
Top 5 in the league in what some would argue are the 2 most important stats for QB’s. As long as he stays on those lists, I think we’ve got something.
2011 Passes Dropped (Team)
1 Cleveland Browns 24
2 Atlanta Falcons 22
3 Philadelphia Eagles 21
4 Chicago Bears 20
5 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 20
Puts some context to his poor completion %.
Note: Absolutely none of this takes into account poor O-line play, poor coaching/playcalling, or the fact that he is still in his first year with a new system after a lockout robbed him of the off-season to prepare.
Just admit it: You really have no idea how to judge QB play, you just are upset that the team is in the crapper AGAIN and you’re looking for someone to blame.
I’ll add this as well:
NFL Leaders
QB Rating, Inside Opp 20
1 Matt Hasselbeck Ten 125.2
2 Aaron Rodgers GB 114.0
3 Colt McCoy Cle 111.4
4 Andy Dalton Cin 109.8
5 Drew Brees NO 107.0
BUT MCCOY CAN’T GET THE BALL IN THE END ZONE, RIGHT?
i think this is called willful ignorance … what does colt’s qb rating inside the 20 have to do with the browns’ ability to score touchdowns? the team has 12 touchdowns in 9 games. that is a fact. the team has a horrible time getting in the endzone (0 td’s in the first and third quarters), and hasn’t scored a touchdown in a game where the deficit was 10 points or fewer since the oakland game. that is horrible.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
If you are trying to say the Browns offense is bad… join the club. Otherwise, none of that stuff tells me that Colt is an awful NFL QB.
QB rating is very far from a perfect stat, but that list is one of a few things I would point to when refuting champion64’s baseless claim that Colt just can’t get us into the end zone.
Colt just can’t get us into the end zone.
but this is factual. colt’s qb rating in the redzone has nothing to do with whether or not we can get into the endzone. we have 12 offensive td’s. the bengals and ravens have 19 each, and the steelers have 23. that’s just in our division. if 12 is good for 4th place at a deficit of 7 touchdowns in our division, imagine how badly it ranks within the league.
colt is a bad quarterback today. end of thought. 5.9 YPA is good for 32nd in the league. 10.1 YPC is good for 33rd. 58.8% comp is 24th. 3% TD % is 24th. these are stats that are important … and colt is bad at them.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Colt can only do what is asked of him. Sure, the YPA is not good, but is that because he lacks the ability to throw further than 5 yards? No, I don’t think it is.
He can only run the plays he is given (let’s leave audibling out of this for now, because no one here really knows what freedoms he does or does not have). Also, it’s very hard to run deep pass plays when A) you have receivers that struggle to get separation and B) its rare that you get the protection necessary to let longer pass plays develop downfield.
The team leads the league in drops. Call it a subjective stat all you want, even if we are only 2nd or 3rd, it explains a lot about the comp %.
The Browns have not scored many touchdowns… I know that, you know that, everyone here knows that. What is at issue here is how much of that is on Colt’s shoulders.
In my view, Colt’s hand in us scoring TD’s can be broken into 2 categories:
1 a.)Getting into the red zone (See the rest of this discussion about Colt’s overall play)
b.)Scoring from the red zone (See Colt’s QB rating inside the 20)
2 Big play capability (See the YPA/YPC discussion)
The fact that 3% of his touchdowns have gone for TD doesn’t tell me much. We haven’t been in the red zone much at all. The extent to which that is a product of Colt’s play has been argued everywhere else in this discussion so you are just restating the same thing.
colt is a bad quarterback today. end of thought
There is nothing wrong with the discussion about his merits and ability to be QB. The thing that bugs me about your argument is that you are convinced you can come to a definitive conclusion and state it as fact.
You can’t. At this point, the people who are actually paid handsomely to make that decision are undecided. The evidence thus far is inconclusive. There have been bad games, there have been good games. So don’t get on your high horse and start stating your opinion as fact.
OK well here it is from Sports Illustrated…A PAID PERSON…
Colt is ranked 23. Colt McCoy, Browns: Instead of improving, the Browns’ second-year starter appears to be regressing. It’s not just the throws he’s missing, but his decision-making. For instance, on Sunday at San Francisco he threw into obvious double coverage when the Browns were driving; he was picked off in the end zone. It hasn’t helped that his receivers have been in and out of the lineup and running back Peyton Hillis has played in only four games because of illness or injury. Still, McCoy has to play better.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jim_trotter/11/01/qb.rankings/index.html#ixzz1duDJsc4w
Jim Trotter is not paid to evaluate Colt McCoy or make personnel decisions in the NFL. He is paid to be a sports journalist.
Even still, he is pointing to a mistake that Colt made on the road against possibly the best defense in the NFL. That doesn’t prove anything at all. Everyone here will admit that Colt has made plenty of mistakes and has even had whole bad games.
I have to interject here. Colt has DA’d at least two passes in the red zone/end zone so far. I don’t care how good the defense is, unless the game is on the line and you are on fourth down you do not try to complete that pass. If he wants to take the team on his shoulders he can do it by being more decisive with his throws, such as he was this week.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
Yeah, I think he’s playing pretty poorly, but I do not want to see what our alternatives are right now.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 16, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
At this point, the people who are actually paid handsomely to make that decision are undecided.
undecided? or lacking for other options.
you can attempt to excuse away the shortcomings that are blatant in colt’s play all you want. the fact of the matter is that his statistical results, the team’s w/l results, the famous “eyeball” test, and his period-to-period improvement all point directly to colt not being a good quarterback today. that is what i believe to be true. i think it’s pretty hard to argue the other side of that.
what people who want colt to stick around are pinning their argument to is that hope that he will improve; the hope that, one day, it’ll click with him; the hope that it’s the offensive line, and not colt’s inability to read defenses and make adjustment; the hope that better receivers will be able to catch more of his passes and open up the field, and that it’s not actually that colt isn’t that accurate at this level, or that capable of making the “stretch” throws on a consistent, accurate basis. i’m all for optimism, but that’s all you’ve got. i have the numbers and the results on my side.
i hope i’m proven wrong. but i’m not optimistic that i will be.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
You know what I think? I think Colt has one of the worst head coach’s (currently, though I think he deserves time to grow) in the league, one of the worst receiving core’s in the league, one of the worst running back situation’s in the league and a below average O-line.
And you want to sit here and point to YPA as evidence that Colt is not an NFL QB.
Congrats man. I think it’s pretty obvious your mind is made up and it’s not going to change. You have offered no argument against the stats I have presented other than “that’s bullshit” and various forms of the “Browns offense sucks so Colt must too” schtick. You also offered no rebuttal when I pointed out multiple reasons that your chosen stats may not be a good indicator of Colt’s actual abilities.
But by all means, “you’ve got the numbers and the results on your side”.
Please remember that you and “champion64” are the ones that are making the claim that Colt does not belong as a starting QB. The burden of proof is on you. It’s a lot easier to prove that he’s somewhere in the middle / average range of NFL QB’s, which is my argument. My original comments /stats provided were not intended as an all-conclusive argument as to why he is a great QB, only as a few points to add in his favor.
The burden of proof is on you. It’s a lot easier to prove that he’s somewhere in the middle / average range of NFL QB’s, which is my argument.
i don’t know why the burden rests more with the “bad colt” camp than it does the “good colt” camp. coming into this season i think everyone would have agreed that colt was a question mark. there wasn’t an established baseline, so it’s not as though one side is trying to prove that he’s gotten better or worse … it’s an open question as to whether he’s been bad or not.
and the preponderance of the evidence is that he’s bad. in 2011, colt mccoy is a bad nfl qb. it’s WAY easier to prove that than it is that he’s middle / average. and, by the way, your argument seems to be changing as you get more wrong.
The Case for Colt:
one of the most irrelevant stats of all time: 2011 game-winning drives. guess what? in virtually every single game in the nfl this year (except the rare cases where a ST or DEF td resulted in the game winning score) there has been a game-winning drive. so, this stat is utterly meaningless. if you meant “4th quarter game-winning drives”, then you should have said so, and that’s still irrelevant. what does that tell me? that two times this year colt mccoy has been the quarterback when the browns were down in the 4th quarter and the team scored in the 4th quarter to win the game? what should i take from that? why should the 4th quarter supersede the other 3 quarters of the game? b/c of “clutchness”? any minimal amount of research would have informed you that there is no such thing as “clutchness” from a statistical point of view.
2011 Pass Intercept. %
that’s an interesting stat, but it does require context. how many of colt’s passes go beyond the 5-yard area? if you want to assign blame to “one of the worst head coach’s (sic)” for some of colt’s shortcomings, then don’t you set yourself up to attribute some credit to him/the playcalling for the int %? after all, colt can “only do what’s asked of him” (quoting you). and, further, at what rate is colt intercepted compared to other quarterbacks who throw similar routes as he does? that would be more informative. while int rate is an important stat, it certain isn’t dispositive with regard to the “case for colt” … or the case that he’s average/middle, whichever argument you actually choose to stick with.
2011 Passes Dropped (Team)
the browns’ wide receivers suck. i believe you’d find me to be the biggest receiver hater on this board if you read through some of the old stuff. please tell me how much of colt’s underperformance i should assign to them? 4 points? 5 points? again, what constitutes a drop? when colt throws a 3rd down pass a foot and a half behind ben watson, but watson miraculously gets both hands on it and can’t pull it in … is that a drop? again, an interesting stat, no question, but i’m not sure what to do with it.
the only stat that you cite that tells me much about colt’s performance is the int %, where he ranks 5th. that’s terrific. i showed you 4 where he ranks in the bottom third of the league, and 2 where he’s either dead last or 2nd to last. you want to blame everyone but colt for that. that’s fine. but then you want to give him credit for the stats that make him look good. you can’t have it both ways.
also,
The fact that 3% of his touchdowns have gone for TD doesn’t tell me much.
it actually tells you a lot. it’s very easy to interpret: 3% of colt’s pass attempts go for touchdowns. 3%. again, that is 24th in the league.
again, i hope colt proves me wrong. but he’s not a good quarterback today. i didn’t really mean to launch off into a colt tear down, but your completely bogus baiting pissed me off, so i felt the need to respond. now i’m even more down on colt, and even more pissed at you for convincing me to convince myself that colt is not the answer.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
YPA and YPC are measuring the same thing for your purposes so don’t claim it as 2 separate things. It’s a valid criticism though. I’ve also made my points as to the context of the stat. Moving on…
ProFootballFocus has an evolved accuracy % stat that takes drops, throwaways and spikes into the regular completion % (still doesn’t account for receiver wrong routes and other miscommunications). Someone with a subscription can give us the exact number, but this put’s Colt at approx. 65%. In comparison, Tebow and Gabbert are at the bottom in the 55% range and the other worldly outlier Rodgers is about 80%. Colt shows up much more “in the middle” instead of bottom 3rd.
NFL All-Time Game-Winning Drives
1. Dan Marino+ 47
2. Peyton Manning 45
3. Brett Favre 43
4. John Elway+ 40
5. Warren Moon+ 35
6. Vinny Testaverde 33
Fran Tarkenton+ 33
8. Drew Bledsoe 31
9. Kerry Collins 30
Jake Plummer 30
11. Johnny Unitas+ 29
12. Jim Kelly+ 28
Joe Montana+ 28
14. Tom Brady 27
Brad Johnson 27
16. Drew Brees (31) 26
Before you write off GWD as the most irrelevant stat ever, check out the all-time leaderboard. Must be something to it with all those big names.
By the way, if Colt is currently an average NFL QB at age 24 after 17 starts (which I believe he is) then he is the answer at QB for the Browns for the forseeable future in my opinion. The argument is one and the same. But I also am open to new information changing my outlook. For now, the best we can do is use nuggets of information to guess at how he would perform with an acceptable supporting cast.
YPA and YPC are measuring the same thing for your purposes so don’t claim it as 2 separate things
no, they are not. YPC isolates actual receptions to take completion % out of the equation. i was trying to throw you a bone here, and it didn’t even work.
Someone with a subscription can give us the exact number, but this put’s Colt at approx. 65%
what? how can you guess at colt/tebow/gabbert/rodgers w/o a subscription?
Before you write off GWD as the most irrelevant stat ever, check out the all-time leaderboard
you’re right. any qb list with jake plummer in the top 10 and brad johnson in the top 15 is unimpeachable. and you are misquoting me … the 2011 game winning drive stat is the most irrelevant stat ever. all time game winners is slightly different, but an isolated year of game winners is utterly meaningless. go back and re-read what i wrote to see how you did not get it right.
your belief in colt is based on a belief that what he has around him is terrible and that such terribleness is directly impacting colt’s ability to be successful. that is impossible to disprove. all i can show you is that colt’s sack rate ranks 18th in the nfl. football outsiders ranks our overall pass protection as 16th in the nfl. while not exactly shining lights of awesomeness, those rankings are pretty average in a 32-team league, which leads me to the conclusion that the line, for one, isn’t as bad as you would say. and if the line isn’t as bad as you would say, then perhaps the other parts of the team aren’t as bad as you’d have us believe either.
the thing with saying colt’s surrounding cast is terrible is that you have no real frame of reference. outside of browns games, how many full games — and i mean FULL games — have you watched this year? of those full games, how many have you really paid close attention to to see how the play calling is, how the line performs, how the backs pick up the blitz… i would venture to say not many. the point of which is: it’s easy for us to gripe about absolute ineffectiveness on parts of our team, but we have limited relative scope. what you think is a terrible performance, may in fact be average compared to the rest of football, which is why we have to put some stock in stuff like football outsiders, where they chart every single play of every single game.
oh, and colt has the 8th most attempts in the nfl. it would stand to reason that the sheer volume of drops would be high.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
the thing with saying colt’s surrounding cast is terrible is that you have no real frame of reference.
Our run blocking and pass protection have been bad (until the Rams game). Our WRs are the worst in the NFL. We have no running back. How many more “frames of reference” do you need?
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
Little has potential. But our corps of WRs are among the worse, and arguably the worse in the NFL. I’m open to hearing opposing viewpoints on this, but I believe most around here are in agreement with me on this.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Little will be really good if he can’t get properly polished. Unfortunately he is still hot and cold right now. He was great this week, but last week it seemed like he was trying to break BE’s record for drops. I definitely want to see more of what he did this week. Maybe by next year he and Norwood can be solid go-to guys.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
pass protection have been bad
not according to the numbers. how many other games do you watch closely?
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t care about statistics from one site that put us just below the middle of the pack (but also puts us at the bottom of the barrel in run blocking BTW). I watch the games and its painfully obvious.
FYI, Here’s a very good analysis that might give you a little better insight. Take a look. The film tells the story.
Our pass protection has been bad. Period.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
The defenses bring more than we keep in to block, that’s why there is less time. That has been widely acknowledged by most analysts.
Please read the article. It clearly illustrates where we had a “hat for a hat” (as Shurmur himself has said), but protection broke down.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
I should add that these guys are some of the harshest critics of Colt McCoy I’ve read on the “Cleveland blogosphere”, and yet this write-up is pretty damning about our protection schemes.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
Frowns doesn’t like Colt because he made Mangini look bad in his book. You can’t take his criticism at face value.
Believe me I take Frowns with a grain of salt.
(BTW as a side note – the article above I linked to above wasn’t actually written by Pattakos – it was written by this guy: @rodofdisaster – don’t know who he is but his write-ups are good)
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 17, 2011 7:46 AM EST up reply actions
I should mention another site besides Outsiders, PFF, has Pashos as the second best pass blocking RT in the league and Joe Thomas I believe in the top 3. Couple that with Mack, and we have the makings of a pretty good pass blocking line. So it’s not just one site saying as much.
Pashos as the second best pass blocking RT in the league
You can’t be serious. This is laughable.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
I know you guys badly don’t want this to be true, but I am taking it from a second independent source, ProFootballFocus, different than Outsiders. This is what they had to say prior to the Rams game:
It should worry any Cleveland Browns fan greatly that Tony Pashos might not be fit for Sunday’s game. Pashos (-1.6) has been poor as a run blocker this year, but in pass protection he has been superb. In 229 pass blocks, he has allowed just two sacks and six pressures and grades out as our third best pass blocking RT. By comparison the other two players the Browns have played at the position this year, Artis Hicks (-6.1) and Oniel Cousins (-9.4) have allowed a combined six hits and 17 pressures on just 139 pass blocks.
Apologies for being wrong about him being 2nd, he’s actually 3rd.
Here is your link
These people actually study game film, and don’t come up with reasons to defend their favorite QB.
In 229 pass blocks, he has allowed just two sacks and six pressures and grades out as our third best pass blocking RT.
Before I read the article I was sure they must be citing career numbers rather than 2011 numbers. I did not realize he had been healthy enough to be in for that many snaps this year. I guess I just have the Crippled Pashos image stuck in my head.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
You’re crazy if you don’t think I want that to be true, but I do watch every game so I find it amazing if it is. Of course I have to wonder when they say “might not be fit” he hasn’t been fit his entire time here.
I’m no Colt apologist and spread the blame evenly among all our offensive units. They all need to either improve their play or their health.
The offense has a lot of problems, clearly. I am trying to figure out the failures, but it’s really hard to place the blame anywhere in particular because the only standout I see on the offensive side of the ball is Joe Thomas. There is a lot of blame to pass around.
Maybe I’ve been overly critical of Pashos – just frustration partly because of his health problems I guess. Regardless, I certainly agree with this:
it’s really hard to place the blame anywhere in particular because the only standout I see on the offensive side of the ball is Joe ThomasAnd especially this:
There is a lot of blame to pass around.… which is really the crux of the larger debate – i.e. where some are singling out McCoy as “the major problem”.
And note that my comments about our problems with pass protection don’t specifically mention the o-line (although there’s no question about our weakness at the guard positions, and when Pashos is out it has been a disaster). I’m referring to the bigger picture – i.e. including the blocking execution of the backs in “max protect” scenarios, the questions about hot routes and if they’re being planned properly, etc. In fact this is one of the problems pointed out in the article I linked to – pointing out that it has been a chronic problem with Little, for example that he doesn’t seem to have awareness and doesn’t look back to see what is developing in the backfield until he is 10 yards downfield, etc. even when they are showing blitz. Just one example of seemingly many breakdowns in out “protection schemes” (term loosely being defined as inclusive of the usage and execution of hot routes…).
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 17, 2011 7:57 AM EST up reply actions
My intent earlier was to backup the notion that our pass protection specifically from the majority of our O line has actually been above average. This is different that scheme and hot routes, etc, but based on stuff like this I have read, I am led to believe that we have solid to excellent pass blocking coming from our tackles.
where is the link. He was okay last year, but I am having trouble believing that THIS year, Pashos was top 3. At least once, he got an awful game rating by PFF.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Our pass pro has been better than run block. Most agree with that.
Let’s avoid stating “the numbers” as fact for something like Oline production. There are some nice publications that give advanced analysis but you have to acknowledge that there is no definitive, foolproof way to quantify an Oline’s performance.
you have to acknowledge that there is no definitive, foolproof way to quantify an Oline’s performance
acknowledged.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
Agree with this as well, but at the end of the day, the stats we are looking at are from objective observers who are looking at game tape from every game in the NFL. The method may be flawed, but it’s more objective than myself or anyone else on this site could provide.
it’s more objective than myself or anyone else on this site could provide.
far more objective, and, almost as importantly, far more comprehensive. in how many threads in how many SBN blogs is this same exact conversation happening? “our o-line sucks” must be the most common phrase in blog-dom.
all we’ve got is what we watch. the sources we’re quoting watch everything (football related, anyway).
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 17, 2011 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
YPA, YPC and comp % are 3 stats that measure 2 things. Using all 3 is repetitive. It would be equivalent to me using Colt’s QB rating inside the 25 and the 20. 2 different stats, basically measuring the same thing.
what? how can you guess at colt/tebow/gabbert/rodgers w/o a subscription?
The bottom and top of the list as of last week is open to the public. Colt’s number is the only one estimated, and its only because I dont know how many throwaways and spikes he’s had. I estimated league average.
I am a fan of Football Outsiders and Pro Football Focus and the like as you appear to be. One point that I think you are missing, is that if all components of our offense around Colt are below average independently (some much worse than just below average), it adds up to being quite possibly the worst offensive situation for a QB in the whole league. It’s at least in the discussion.
our contention is Cutler did a great job with a horrible line last year (worse than ours now) and so did Rodgers whos line was about equal to ours. IN COLT’S defense Rodgers comparison is not fair because of three things, he has much better weapons on offense to throw to, he has been in the system longer than Colt and he is much better than Colt will ever hope to be. But Cutler is a good comparison
Before you write off GWD as the most irrelevant stat ever, check out the all-time leaderboard.
that includes Kerry Collins and Jake Plummer
do you know what GWD measures? It measures how many times your team was tied and your offense had a drive for a score that eventually won the game. You know what stat has more merit? 4th quarter comebacks, because your team is down and it doesn’t rely as much on the defense stopping your opponent.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
He statistically he is 22nd in Quarterback rating makes him in the bottom 1/3 of starting quarterbacks. Facts are he is not moving the ball well enough for us to score points. 5 trips inside the 30 last week and 12 points. You can’t argue he is average, he is not. Not now he isn’t. The team is 3rd lowest in total points and he has to bear the weight of that.
That’s poor analysis. He does not have to bear the weight of the offense’s ineptitude just because you say so. Go look at each play in the red zone last week and tell me where Colt messed up. He was asked to hand the ball to the freakin back up TE in goal to go and you want to blame Colt.
Ok where would you rank Colt McCoy as compared to the rest of the starting quarterbacks and where would you rate our over all offense?
Roughly off the top of my head, I would put Colt in the 15-20 best QB range.
Our Offense as a whole is currently bottom 5.
I’m not trying to argue with you but I’m having a hard time naming 12-17 starters who Colt is better than.
When actually going through the list, top 15 is clearly a reach. 20 seems very fair to me.
There were 14 guys I crossed off the list right away at the top that Colt has no argument against. Then at the bottom I have Painter, Moore, Tebow, Gabbert, Jackson, Grossman that I am taking Colt over no questions asked.
That leaves a tier from #15-26 that Colt fits into. It’s really tough to compare a lot of the guys in that tier because many have limited experience. An argument could be made for Colt over each of these guys in my opinion, but realistically I’ll settle for him in the middle of that group at 20.
Tier #15-26
*McCoy
*Sanchez
*Smith
*Fitzpatrick
*Bradford
*Dalton
*Flacco
*Freeman
*Palmer
*Cassel
*Kolb
*Ponder
I put Colt at the top because I don’t feel like arguing his specific case against each one of these guys. I realize that most people would take Sanchez, Smith and Fitzpatrick over him right now, but all three of those guys are various forms of unproven so I included them. I also think that most people would take him over Ponder and Kolb right now. I think its pretty fair to have him in the middle of this group somewhere.
today, everyone in football would rather have: smith, fitzpatrick, bradford, dalton, flacco, freeman, palmer, and cassel (when healthy). sanchez/colt/kolb are probably a toss up, so let’s give colt the benefit of the doubt and put him ahead of sanchez, kolb, ponder, painter, moore, tebow, gabbert, jackson, redskins. that makes him 23rd … 24th when you toss peyton back into the starting mix. bottom third — actually bottom quarter.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 17, 2011 3:19 AM EST up reply actions
His passer rating currently ranks 22nd in the NFL, so you’re probably in the neighborhood (not claiming that stat is a clear indicator – just mentioning it because it is somewhat consistent with where you guys are ranking him).
It should also be mentioned that five of the guys you’re putting him ahead of are in their 3rd, 5th, 3rd, 5th and 6th seasons, whereas McCoy is only at the beginning of his 2nd season. And the vast majority of those above him have been in the league anywhere from 5 to 10 years.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 17, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
There you go again, stating your opinion as fact.
Flacco, Freeman, Cassel and Bradford have all been various forms of bad this year. Smith and Palmer have been bad over the last couple years, hell smith was awful practically his whole career until the past 9 games. Dalton’s been good, sure, but he’s played 9 career games and I think it’s no coincidence that he struggled when finally facing the steelers, especially without the freak Green playing much of the game.
I’m not going to go into a detailed argument about each one of these guys, but this:
everyone in footballis clearly not true.
ok. everyone in football not named TKilbane. how’s that?
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 17, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Dalton led Benglas have scored almost 100 points more than the McCoy led Browns and they scored 17 points against the Steelers and had a chance to tie the game in the 4th quarter at 24 all and you say he struggled , what do you call 12 points at home against the horrible Rams defense with no starting CB in the game? You have not proven one valid point. McCoy’s QB rating is in the bottom third, the browns offense is ranked 30th , passing game in the bottom 1/4 of the league, and you defend it with made up trival facts that are not telling anyone the story. THe facts are he and the offense are in the bottom 1/3 of the league at best, so he and the offense are failing. Remember Dalton has 9 games under his belt and Cam Newton who is on a team with less wins and had NO OTA’s and hardly any presason, is out playing McCoy so stop with your analysis of nothingness. You have proven nothing and continue to ignore the facts DontCallMeJoey and Dorn and others present you.
What is the point of your rant?
Sounds to me like DCMJ and TKilbane were fairly close with their assessment – i.e. that McCoy probably ranks somewhere in the 20 to 24 range (which is not bad for a QB just coming into his 2nd year).
No one said McCoy is better than Cam Newton. No 1st, 2nd or 3rd year QB in the NFL can be compared to Cam Newton. The guy is a freak.
Dalton is a much better QB than the vast majority of pundits and bloggers estimated.
I repeatedly predicted before the draft he was going to be really good.
continue to ignore the facts DontCallMeJoey and Dorn and others present you
I think we all need to tone down the rhetoric a bit (not just you). People need to stop being thick skulled and hard headed, stating their opinions as absolute indisputable fact when making their cases.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 17, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
No my case is he is bringing up things to assess McCoy that have no relevance to how he is playing. It is FACT Colt is not playing well, it is not just opinion. He ranks in the bottom 1/3 of all quarterbacks, the offense is ranked 30th and the Browns are 2nd worst in scoring TD’s Jacksonville is the worst. SO I am saying his OPINION that Colt McCoy is around the 15th-20th best starting quarterback (and he will settle for 20th) is HIS opinion and not supported by the facts of this year. He went on to say DCMJ was stating opinion and not Fact, I am saying DCMJ is stating fact based on the stats of 2011. No arguement, just backing what DCMJ said
Tier #15-26…
realistically I’ll settle for him in the middle of that group at 20
This is what TKilbane stated.
Joey put it closer to 23rd or 24th.
There are no “facts” that conclusively and with absolute certainty establish McCoy at higher or lower than any of those numbers. There’s no such thing. This is all a very subjective argument once you get down to the bottom third or so.
You have your opinion, TKilbane has his, everyone else has theirs.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 17, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
McCoy probably ranks somewhere in the 20 to 24 range (which is not bad for a QB just coming into his 2nd year)
i don’t know that it’s “not that bad”, considering the discussion we’ve had around what other starting qb’s you would dump in favor of colt (not many). also, considering that he doesn’t obviously do anything very well, it’s hard to be super optimistic that he moves up significantly.
and colt is more than halfway through his 2nd year now. obviously, i understand you’ll argue playing time = beginning of second year, but if that’s the case then kevin kolb is still a rookie (14 starts in 4.5 seasons), and in his “new system” he has started 2 games fewer than colt (just one example). let’s just play it as it lies … however long a qb has been in the league is however long he’s been in the league.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 18, 2011 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
he doesn’t obviously do anything very well
This is your opinion, nothing more. Many people would disagree strongly with this statement. I’m not going to get started on though it because the thread would blow up.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 18, 2011 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
and how many of those trips did they take legitimate shots at the end zone? I think 2, at the most 3 that I can remember. He still needs to take those shots, but its not like you should hold against him the trip in the RZ where they handed it off 3 times.
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I think it MIGHT show that they are not comfortable with McCoy throwing down there, or they feel they best chance for a touchdown is to run the ball in the redzone, either way it is not a endorsement for our passing game
it might show that, but because they don’t trust Colt doesn’t mean he should be blamed for not scoring when they take the ball out of his hands.
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well it would follow that if they trusted Colt it would be because they thought they could based on his prior play. I think they honestly thought a field goal was good enough against the Rams
that last part is probably the case.
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Shurmur said at least a couple of times that he wanted to run the ball down there to kill clock. I can’t prove either that he was lying, but I also can’t prove that he did it because he doesn’t trust Colt. I would argue, however, that our TD percentage in the red zone prior to this game would argue against the lack of trust, especially considering that so for this year we have 10 passing TDs to 2 rushing TDs.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
It might not be Colt specific. In that situation, where you feel a FG is adequate you probably don’t trust anyone to throw a pass. If the ball gets tipped or any other reason you throw an INT – boom! Ball game over. At least if you kick the FG you have a chance to win.
the qb play has been terrible. period.
the “game winning drives” stat is bullshit and clearly not an important qb stat at all. that’s purely a matter of circumstance.
pass interception % is a reasonable statistic, but requires some context. it’s hard to throw interceptions when you’re throwing the ball less than 5 yards down the field.
drops is also a reasonable statistic, but i don’t think there’s a standard definition for a drop, so it’s a bit subjective. nevertheless, no one here would argue that the receivers are anything but terrible on this team.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
which doesn’t change the fact that the game winning drives stat, especially for a single year, is complete bullshit.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
game winning drive is definitely pretty bullshit. All that measures is the amount of games where the game was tied in the 4th quarter and the offense made a drive to win the game. Really, all it is is “4th quarter wins while not trailing”. pretty meaningless imo.
i do think comebacks have merit, but GWDs have much less.
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i do think comebacks have merit, but GWDs have much less.
Isn’t a game winning drive usually a comeback?
by Bernie19Kosar on Nov 16, 2011 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
game winning drive is when the game is tied and you score and that score is the winning score. 4th quarter comebacks are game winning drive where your team is down and you take the lead. I think that says more about a QB.
A lot of the guys who are on the leaderbords for GWDs (like Collins, Plummer, and Brad Johnson) don’t seem like clutch QBs and don’t seem like they belong. In fact, while they all rank top 10, none are in the top 15 all time in 4th quarter comebacks and Brad Johnson is 55th all time.
Joe montana is 12th all time in GWDs but among the top 10 in 4QCs because he didn’t lead a lot of game winning drives where the team was tied, he took them from behind (a much better indicator of a great QB).
Basically, the leaderboards of game winning drives look like a better overall leaderboard of some of the best QBs with some exceptions (such as Testaverde who got on there because he’s been around forever).
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Our receivers are terrible. How do we get rid of Braylon and then lead the league in drops three years later?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
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by Adrock2099 on Nov 16, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
he is also an above average 3rd down QB. the problem is our offense sucks so bad we can never get a first down in 2 plays so we are always forced into a 3rd down.
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It is my understanding that in the WCO the emphasis is less on converting on 1st or 2nd down and more on keeping the ball moving and stuff.
Seriously, though, how many teams regularly avoid third down by converting on 1st or 2nd?
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
Seriously, though, how many teams regularly avoid third down by converting on 1st or 2nd?
It depends on the offensive style, but there are a few elite offenses that do it. New England, Green Bay, and Philly are good offense that convert well on 3rd down, but also are good at avoiding getting into 3rd down situations.
You also can’t look at straight conversion rates in a vacuum either and have to look at where teams are converting, whether its 3rd and short, medium, or long. Colt is 3rd in the NFL in the most pass attempts on 3rd and long. The other two are the Lions and Titans, both of whom have crappy run games which puts them into 3rd and longs. Alex Smith has very few 3rd and long attempts because Gore is a beast.
Good offenses either convert on 2nd down, or get it to a manageable 3rd down.
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3rd and short vs 3rd and long is certainly a different story.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
exactly. The fact that we get into so many 3rd and longs says something about our offense as a whole.
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even tho this was one of the more embarasing losses, it was also by far the best game the browns have played this year. i know it was against the rams, but if the season is for evaluating mccoy (with no line, runningback or receivers) then it is the best game on the year. again, tho it was against the rams, he showed things we havent seen since his first 3 or 4 startslast year
even tho this was one of the more embarasing losses, it was also by far the best game the browns have played this year.
It is my understanding, this is what makes this year so sad.
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
it is my understanding that there’s a factory of sadness up there somewhere.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Nov 16, 2011 9:16 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t really get too excited about the wildcat but obviously the double reverse was awesome.
Incidentally, the first toss was only forward in relation to the way Cribbs was facing but in relation to the line of scrimmage it was a lateral which is what matters
I don’t get it, I thought a forward pass was a forward pass regardless of the line of scrimmage. Teams throw forward screen passes to running backs behind the line of scrimmage all the time, but the running back can’t suddenly heave the ball forward after that.
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by Chris Pokorny on Nov 15, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Technically it was a lateral because I am pretty sure Wallace was farther behind the LOS than Cribbs. I will watch it again though.
I think Wallace was ahead of Cribbs. Without looking at the play (meaning these yardages are made up), let’s say the Browns are past midfield. Cribbs takes the Shotgun snap and has the ball maybe near the 45-yard line. I’m pretty sure Cribbs flips it forward to Wallace, who is at the 44.5 yard line.
If anyone else knows about this play, please share, I’m very curious about it.
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by Chris Pokorny on Nov 16, 2011 8:38 AM EST up reply actions
This is by no means proof, but one Rams fan questioned it: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/football/professional/rams-chat-offense-needs-to-diversify/article_62df9e1c-0fd9-11e1-9d72-001a4bcf6878.html
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by Chris Pokorny on Nov 16, 2011 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
Cribbs tossed the ball forward behind the line of scrimmage to Wallace and then Wallace tossed it backwards to McCoy , to which McCoy hit Wallace down the sideline with another forward pass.
Call should have been a 5 yard penalty of the Browns. The call was missed.
“Definition: An illegal pass play in which a player catches a forward pass behind the line of scrimmage, then passes the ball forward to another receiver.
A second forward pass results in a five-yard penalty against the offending team.”
Yep, I just watched a replay of it a little while ago. It was only by a couple of feet, but it definitely appeared to be a forward toss from Cribbs to Wallace.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Are you sure that the ball actually went forward though? I’ve watched it multiple times now on replay and I can’t come to a definitive conclusion. I have both toss by cribbs and reception (of cribbs toss) by wallace happening at the 43 3/4 yard line by my very imprecise eye. I think it’s possible that Cribbs just tossed the ball straight up and the ball did not actually travel “forward” at all, but only appears to because Wallace’s body is a yard in front of Cribbs’ when he tossed it.
Either way, is that really how they drew it up, hoping for a favorable referee / potential review call of a non forward pass by inches? I wonder if Cribbs was supposed to hand it to Wallace.
Wallace is infront of Cribbs (meaning closer to the line of scrimmage) as he passes Cribbs who tosses him the ball which is forward.
Sure looks to me on the replay like it went forward.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 16, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think that the long throw to Little indicates that McCoy can go downfield if he has enough time to throw and a decent pocket. That was one of the first long pass plays of the year that succeeded and it was also one of the first where I could count to five and Colt still had a clean pocket.
That was the first time I actually shouted for joy instead of rage during a Browns game for a few weeks.
Yes, I think Colt can definitely throw it accurately if he has time and space. The problem most people here have is that that’s a luxury most NFL QBs don’t always have. So you have 2 options – get a QB that can throw strongly from multiple arm angles and off any foot, or get an awesome line that will always give him a good pocket. I’m not sure what’s easier to get, but personally I think you never go wrong with a great O Line. We have 1 pro bowler, 1 all world tackle and if Steinbach comes back he should be a pro bowler any given year. Like always we need to fix the right side and I think Colt can play well with that.
You either get an elite QB or get an awesome line and an okay QB.
An elite QB can get it done without the line, but the line makes just an okay QB look much better.
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yes. some QBs just suck no matter the situation. a great pass blocking line can give more time to a very middling QB and help him analyze the D better (by giving him more time). But a QB that isn’t very good with a bad line generally won’t be anything better than above average with a great line.
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I would take Gradkowski over Frye. And Ratty, of course
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
Always vote for Ratty.
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by notthatnoise on Nov 17, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn had amazing lines, and they both sucked. We can hope for improvement from Colt with a better line, and we’re likely to get it. But I don’t think it’s the kind of improvement that takes him from terrible to pro-bowler.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 16, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
linemen, particularly offensive linemen, have a long shelf life. Thomas is in what, his fifth year? He’s got another 6 or 7 or even more years left in him. I doubt it takes us longer than two years to get the line straightened out, and I’m willing to bet it looks a lot better next year.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 16, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
How long does it take a line to play as a unit? doesn’t it take a year or two before they really are a solid unit?
probably depends on how much they’re being asked to do. in a houston-style zone-blocking scheme, it probably takes a bit longer for all of them to work as a unit.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
My honest opinion is that in the NFL it should probably take a couple of months of playing together. I have no idea how that holds up, I just don’t buy the idea that it takes years.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 16, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
Joe Thomas is whatever He wants to be.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 16, 2011 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn had amazing lines, and they both sucked
a testament to how bad they actually were. behind this line, I am not even sure if we win more than 1 game with either one at the helm (don’t win vs. miami and probably not against seattle).
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get a QB that can throw strongly from multiple arm angles and off any foot, or get an awesome line that will always give him a good pocket.
I’ll take one of each, please.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
I personally loved this game. Of course, at the very end, I sheepishly threw my cell phone on the ground in a fit of obligatory rage over the fact that we lost (and how we lost), but overall I really liked what I saw. I think Colt deserves the game ball. And I think that this is the first game in a long time that I have watched and didn’t have to say something like “HE WAS WIDE OPEN!” or “THAT WAS A PERFECT PASS! YOU GOTTA CATCH THAT F%&#ING BALL!!!!”
We didn’t score a touchdown, but we also didn’t look like a team with a bunch of high school juniors and seniors that have never played before trying to run the offense. I think we looked really good on offense.
We didn’t score a touchdown, but we also didn’t look like a team with a bunch of high school juniors and seniors that have never played before trying to run the offense. I think we looked really good on offense.
I think the Rams defense sucks. How can we be so excited about 4 fgs?
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
I’m not excited about 4 fgs, but I think we can get excited that the offense actually moved the ball consistently, which is more than we can say for most of the games we’ve played in. We still have a long way to go, though.
Reply fail (didn’t want you to feel left out) ;)
by shep615 on Nov 15, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This one crushed a larger-than-usual portion of my soul.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Nov 16, 2011 3:31 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, I thought that maybe that “crushing loss/depressed post-game feelings” were gone since we had been playing terrible the past several weeks. I was wrong; I was so beat red after the game and felt like crap.
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by Chris Pokorny on Nov 16, 2011 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
was it because of the loss or because we had a play with two forward passes?
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
What to do w/ Dawson next season? Give him the pro bowl money he deserves, or let him leave and get paid elsewhere.
I don’t have a problem drafting a high quality, young kicker somewhere toward the end of the draft. Considering that field goals equate to the most important aspect of the Browns offense, might as well lock in a good kicker.
"That’s the reality of it and I live in that reality." Shurmur
Dawson should have a job in Cleveland for as long as he wants it. I think he is better than Don Cockroft who was a Mr. Automatic for years for the Browns. He is honestly better than Lou “the toe” Groza, who is almost untouchable as a Browns Kicker . Dawson has converted 83 % of his field goals attempted, and 98 % of extra points. Kicking in Cleveland is a great feat. He should have a contract.
Honestly… If I’m Dawson then I wouldn’t want a job in Cleveland next year. Eventually we will be a good contender, but I don’t know if we will win anything significant while Dawson is still playing. I’d try to sign with a contender if I was him.
I think he’ll go where the money is. Kickers don’t get paid much, he’ll want to maximize that.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 16, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Dawson is awesome, but if you put him in a dome he’s pretty average. The thing that makes him awesome here is that the crappy field conditions, the swirling winds and the frozen temperatures never seem to phase him, he just kicks them through. He’s only weakness appears to be stray legs.
If we let him or Hillis go and they end up in Pittsburgh I will start cutting myself.
His weakness is length on kickoff’s. I’m all for resigning him for 3 more years and drafting a young kicker with a big leg to take over kickoff duties and learn the nuances of kicking here till Dawson flounders or retires.
Yes, I understand that this takes up a roster spot, but it would be worth it due to the lack of this coaching staff’s emphasis on Special Teams. Why risk lousy coverage units giving up valuable field position when the new rules let you force the opposition to start at their 20 every single time?
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
He is intentionally not kicking into the end zone. The goal is to try to tackle the returner before he reaches the 20.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 16, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
If his job is to kick it to the 4 yard line, then he’s the most accurate kicker of all time.
by Brownie's Year on Nov 16, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t believe this at all. No proof, but when you lose a ton of Special Teams players due to a shift in Defensive philosophy and bring in a coaching staff that admittedly places less emphasis on that part of the game, I find it very hard to believe you’re intentionally scheming to your strong return coverage. I have never seen Dawson kick the ball through the end zone after the rule change.
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
I have never seen Dawson kick the ball through the end zone after the rule change.
He did it in the preseason. Nobody on our coaching staff has talked about it, but this has been brought up as a viable strategy post-rule change. The idea is you can kick it to the goal line with a longer hang time and a shorter distance for the coverage team to run. This means you should be able to tackle the returner much sooner than in previous years.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 16, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
NTN is correct. Teams are popping the ball up.
by Bernie19Kosar on Nov 16, 2011 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think Dawson is trying to get hangtime on the ball, but ideally you still kick it into the endzone. He’s lacking maybe 5-8 yards on that kickoff that I’d like.
How awesome would it be to hang one up there and leave it up to the discretion of the returner as to whether or not to try to take the ball out? He’d have to have a helluva internal clock, and we could get a few cheap fumbles by making him hear footsteps.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yeah I think you’re right, ideally it would get a yard or two into the end zone. He’s managed to do it a couple times but I imagine controlling distance that accurately on a kick that far is difficult.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 17, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
This is a crazy thought, but let’s say Dawson leaves, it may actually make us go for TD’s. Maybe the coaches say why risk the Td when Dawson just kicks it in. Without Dawson there is no Mr. Automatic and hence it requires us to score TD’s.
The possible down side – we score nothing.
there is no upside, we score nothing.
Lifes A Dance, You Learn As You Go!
by findlaybrownslover on Nov 16, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Dawson indoors
Not to be nitpicking but looked at his indoors stats in past 5 years and he only missed 1 FG. Made a 48 & 50 yarder. However, he really doesn’t play a whole lot in domes. I personally hate the idea of 3 kickers. Aren’t there punters around that kickoff? Otherwise now that we moved the kickoff I’d say he is either our guy or we replace him. He is getting up there and he also is our best “skill” offensive player.
Wildcat
Finally, the Wildcat: It was a pleasant surprise to see the Browns actually come out and operate from the Wildcat with Joshua Cribbs.
I absolutely hate the wildcat and “trick” plays should be once or twice a year – otherwise, they aren’t. I think it that Cribbs value is on special teams and the occasional spread offense. As elusive as he is as a kick returner he does not seem to get open as easily. Maybe that is because our WR crew is just not good enough draw attention away from him?
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