Shurmur Reflects on the Browns' Loss to the Texans
by Chris Pokorny on Nov 7, 2011 8:30 PM EST
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Cleveland Browns head coach Pat Shurmur spoke with the local media today regarding the team's 30-12 loss to the Houston Texans. I already addressed some of what he said about Peyton Hillis earlier, so the highlights after the jump are the ones that do not involve Hillis. [Read full press conference transcript here]
(Opening statement on the injuries) - "Mohamed Massaquoi as I mentioned yesterday came out of the game. He was feeling woozy and he actually went home today, he wasn’t feeling well so he’s out of the building. There was no specific episode in the game that caused him, we’re just having that evaluated. Tony Pashos got kicked in the leg so we’ll see how he is. Dimitri Patterson is progressing, we’ll see as we near the end of the week his availability. T.J. Ward had a dislocated finger, they popped it back in, got it fixed and then he had a foot sprain. I don’t have any details on that yet he’s still being evaluated on the foot. Usama Young has a hip injury and again, we’ll see how he does as he goes through the week."
(On Massaquoi’s condition being related to the concussion) – "We’re having that evaluated. We’re very strict with that protocol when it involves concussion situations. There is no wiggle room. We follow the guidelines as to when a player can be back. He was able to compete, he practiced, he followed all the guidelines and standards. Joe (Sheehan) is very to the letter on that. He got in the game, he competed for a while and then he got woozy, so he came out."
(On if he was hit in the head during the game) – "No, there was no significant play in the game that caused him to get worse."
(On what troubled him the most about yesterday) – "I think we got behind early for a couple of reasons. They drove the ball on us and then we fumbled the ball on the first snap. On a run that’s going to gain yards, can’t do that. So we spot them 10 points there and then we throw an interception right before half and give them another three. Those are the types of things that upset me and that’s how that game went. We’ll work on correcting those. "
(On why a timeout was not called after Colt McCoy was sacked before the half) – "I chose not to call one. We got a play that we wanted, he threw the ball to Greg (Little) in the slot. I chose not to call one, there’s no reason to at that point."
(On if Little should have run a different route on the interception) – "I’m going to leave that to the correction. No, Greg was running the right route. Greg needs to look for the football."
(On if he gave any thought to putting Seneca Wallace in the game) – "No, not at all."
(On the breakdowns in protection) – "There was only one snap yesterday where we didn’t have a hat for everybody that was rushing, however that works. We had new guys in there playing at running back and a new guy at tackle and there was only one play where didn’t have a hat for a hat where it should have been picked up. We need to get better at making sure that gets done."
(On how much responsibility falls on McCoy to put new guys in the right place) – "It falls on everybody in the game being responsible to do their job. The ultimate success or failure of an offense falls on the head coach and the quarterback making sure that it gets done. The way we had the protection schemed up, like I said, we had a hat for a hat on every play but one."
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The Browns loss
I just wish they would settle the contract talks with peyton hillis so he could get back to playing football.
scott galyk
are you aware that he has an injured hamstring?
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 12:25 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
sweet sig
Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.
by pwndabear on Nov 8, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
(On if he gave any thought to putting Seneca Wallace in the game) – “No, not at all.”
I’m glad Shurmur has something right for once.
Even Doug Dieken admits Joe Thomas is the real #73
by Doc's Kid on Nov 7, 2011 8:47 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
For real, I was very happy to see this.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
I agree.
But I’ll have to admit, I heard an interesting argument: If McCoy has another garbage first half, play Wallace just to see compare, maybe get a better idea of how much of it is on McCoy.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
I wish there was a way to do this without doing it. Better yet, develop a simulation where Brady plays behind this line, with these receivers and lets see how he does.
I’m not rooting one way or another, Colt is nice, tough young guy but I could give a shit about UT and the whole state of Texas, I just want to know if we’re putting too much blame on him or not enough.
I wish there was a way to do this without doing it.
Practice.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 7, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Practice? Not a game, not a game . . .
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Nov 8, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I can see that, but I don’t think Wallace is much of an improvement, especially in this offense. You could probably plug in an above average QB from any team and he would get knocked down a few pegs, if anything.
McCoy will probably suck all year, but I don’t want to hear about a QB controversy every week. A RB controversy is plenty.
"That’s the reality of it and I live in that reality." Shurmur
Help us Thaddeus Lewis, you’re our only hope.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Nov 8, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
did i hear somewhere that josh cribbs may have played qb…
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
I am kind of mad some dunce in the media even asked that. I think they should hand out media credentials based on the quality of questions. If that means we end up with no press, so be it.
I would so prefer no press.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 7, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
i find that the quality of shurmur’s answers are generally in line with the quality of the press’ questions, which is also frustrating.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
It’s frustrating, because I would like to know more, but I can’t really blame the guy.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Yeah, well I am annoyed with every Sunday.
by Les Fleurs Du Mal on Nov 8, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, i don’t expect much from coaches’ pressers, but the way that shurmur, in particular, says nothing really bugs me.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
so many injuries. so much talk about McCoy. so much talk about Hillis. Looking back, between Anderson, Quinn, Delhomme, McCoy, Wallace. the list goes on. I just want to see some consistency on the field with the players. We got good guys, we just need to get them to win games….
we just need to get them to win games
if you got any ideas, i’m all ears…
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
(On how much responsibility falls on McCoy to put new guys in the right place) – “It falls on everybody in the game being responsible to do their job. The ultimate success or failure of an offense falls on the head coach and the quarterback making sure that it gets done. The way we had the protection schemed up, like I said, we had a hat for a hat on every play but one.”
Can’t completely pass around the sh*t sandwich without taking a bite, but it seems Shurmer is trying to throw individuals under the bus.
"The rush of battle is a potent and almost lethal addiction, for war is a drug."
I’m no Shurmur fan but I think you’ve misinterpreted this.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Same here on both fronts. In fact it seems quite the opposite of throwing someone else under the bus to me.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Montario Hardesty, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by North Coast Flea on Nov 7, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Everyone criticizes him for being vague and talking about “battling” and using other meaningless cliches, but then when he actually points out where the issue is you want to throw him under the bus again?
I appreciate everything he said there – the schemes had all the blitzers covered, now these guys, who are young and learning and a couple of them just fresh of the bus need to get better at picking up their assignments. Luvao and Pinkston need to stop being exploded into a million pieces up the gut. These are fixable and teachable but also come from strength, confidence and experience. At least we know there is hope for improvement. If the schemes were just bad, then we would be completely effed.
Shurmer is being extremely vague and the question is about Colt McCoy. Shurmer answers that it is on the coach and the QB. How about Shurmer instead saying “The guys were obviously not prepared and that is on me to ensure that they are doing the right things at the right time”. Instead, his statement makes it look like Colt is partially at fault for the break downs on the O-line, WRs, and RBs. No Shurmer, that is on you and the coaching staff for not having these guys properly prepared. Yes I know the coaches are not on the field, but you have to question everything when you see the same stupid stuff being done game after game after game. First 3-4 games, the coaches get a pass because the players are learning. We are 8 games in and regressing. That is purely on the Head Coach. Do the good coaches blame the players? Take a big bite of your sh*t sandwich Shurmer, but don’t dare try to pass the buck when clearly the problem lies with you and the staff.
"The rush of battle is a potent and almost lethal addiction, for war is a drug."
I really don’t see this, especially after this week.
Many of the players and coaches have admitted that they got straight worked by Houston in all aspects. Very few excuses from players. I think Shurmur is emphasizing this here.
It’s quite obvious that the whole team is to blame for this loss, top to bottom.
"That’s the reality of it and I live in that reality." Shurmur
by LocalMan on Nov 7, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The team has weaknesses, there is no doubt about that. Every team in the NFL has weaknesses too. It is the coaches job to exploit those weaknesses and mask our own. Shurmer and his staff have not done this effectively. Granted the systems are new in Cleveland, but most of these guys have played in a similar system somewhere and in some shape or form. Houston is a great team headed in the right direction, but Houston was not the only team to work over the Browns this year. San Fran has had a great turn around because the Coach knows how to utilize his talent and makes sound decisions during critical times in a game. We need a strong head coach that has been there and done that attitude.
"The rush of battle is a potent and almost lethal addiction, for war is a drug."
Hard to mask the weaknesses on the offense side of the ball when it looks like a cheese grater to start with. Pick a spot right now on the O side of the ball that is not weak? This statement is like placing a sailor in a ship with 1,000 leaks and telling him to plug them all before it goes under. I do not like Shurmer but I also see that all of this is not his fault.
by Brownsfan4ever on Nov 8, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
He’s just saying schematically they have everything accounted for. It’s all there on paper.
But getting the playbook to translate to the field is the job of the coaches and players. Teaching something isn’t something you can truly just “do” as a coach, it’s like trying to give someone a cold. You can be sick, you can be contageous, you can do everything in your power, but they might not end up getting sick and even if they do you didn’t truly actively give them the cold.
Players can be the most prepared ones in the world, but it’s always on them to execute. Shurmur sure isn’t going to go out there and throw TDs. Coaches coach and players have to play; how is that blaming the players?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
All I am saying is since Shurmer is leading the team, he should be the buffer on criticism and support his people. He threw Colt under the bus by making the statement that the QB and himself are at fault. To me, that shows he wants to pass some blame to others rather than shouldering the entire load himself. All I want him to say is we were not properly prepared, we did not execute like we wanted, and that is my fault for not having this team ready. Blaming players is like whining to the boss when your assignment is incomplete due to the copier being broken. TO ME, that does not fly. Everyone has their opinions as to what is broken on the Browns. Some chose McCoy, others the O-line or Rbs. Mine is that Shurmer is not utilizing his personnel properly and is trying to force the offense instead of finding something that works. The Offensive gameplan is horrible. Is it any wonder we can never move the ball with our standard offense but we move it when we force the defense into a prevent with hurry up and Shotgun? If it works, why not use it and sprinkle in the standard WCO to throw the defense off and get reps. I may be crazy, but I am not insane trying to do the same things over and over and over expecting a different result each time.
"The rush of battle is a potent and almost lethal addiction, for war is a drug."
making the statement that the QB and himself are at fault
That’s not throwing the QB under the bus, that’s a simple statement of fact.
we did not execute like we wanted
Execution is the players’ responsibility. Like I said, Shurmur can’t go out on the field and play. Saying that we didn’t execute is saying that the players didn’t do their jobs—in essence the exact thing you are making such a fuss about Shurmur saying is something that you also want him to say.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Is it any wonder we can never move the ball with our standard offense but we move it when we force the defense into a prevent
when has this team forced a defense into prevent? the prevent defenses we’ve faced have been defenses that are playing for a team that is up by approximately 400 points.
I may be crazy
let’s explore this some more…
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
FORCED INTO PREVENT. I love that.
by Les Fleurs Du Mal on Nov 8, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No, our gameplan forces them into prevent. See, Shurmur’s master strategy is to get down by two scores early so that they’re forced into a prevent defense, which is then carved up by our otherwise anemic offense. It’s brilliant, really.
by Legoman0721 on Nov 8, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
The guys were obviously not prepared and that is on me to ensure that they are doing the right things at the right time".
Maybe he feels like the players were prepared and they just didn’t execute.
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
The ultimate success or failure of an offense falls on the head coach and the quarterback making sure that it gets done.
failure of an offense falls on the head coach and the quarterback
failure of an offense falls on the head coach
the head coach
Looks like he took his share of the blame to me. Hell, he even listed himself first.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Montario Hardesty, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by North Coast Flea on Nov 8, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
I haven’t really been excited about anything Shurmur has done, but I’m not convince tha the problem lies clearly with him and the staff. He may be trying to polish the unpolishable.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I just think its going to take more than 8 games. Probably have to give it sometime into next year as the youngsters develop. I could see maybe 3-4 years to be competitive.
Well, hopefully we get draft picks to double down on our weakest positions. Then if we find out in camp that the incumbents have finally started to develop we’ll be set with depth at those positions. Unfortunately, I think in our case that would mean hitting gold on every pick and, while I am a bit of an optimist at times, this isn’t one of them.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
It can be done faster than that. Quarterback is where it starts and ends.
by Bernie19Kosar on Nov 8, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
IMHO – from his comments I think Shurmur is “greasing the skids” to move on to a different QB next year. Regardless, Colt has gotten a fair shot from the organization, and should have no regrets. I say this because on all other players he is very protective. Was it Pinkstons fault that a guy went right buy him and blocked a FG coach? I dunno – we’ll look at the film and get it tightened up. Was it demoralizing that Pashos got beat to the inside and we fumble on the first drive (again) coach? Overall I would say the protection was okay. With Colt you get the specifics – should have run there, he should have thrown it away, or Thomas did not get beat by Freeney – Colt should have continued rolling out to his right.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
I don’t know about this. From what I can recall most of what I’ve heard from Shurmur in his pressers about McCoy has been positive.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Unfortunately, we see Shurmer talking a lot about Colt because a lot of the questions are about Colt. I really wish he would push the positives of the team (what they did right) and shouldering the blame when things go wrong (deflecting criticism and explain better as to why he made a call like he did). Being a head coach on a losing team sucks, but Shurmer has to engage the media a lot better than he has. I have calmed a bit since last night, so hopefully I can have a more rational conversation instead of being thought of as a loon.
"The rush of battle is a potent and almost lethal addiction, for war is a drug."
I really wish he would push the positives of the team (what they did right)
that would be an extremely short press conference…
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
There’s this.
The ultimate success or failure of an offense falls on the head coach and the quarterback making sure that it gets done.
’’
But then again there’s also this.
The way we had the protection schemed up, like I said, we had a hat for a hat on every play but one."
Sounds like the Head Coach is willing to take his share of the blame but is also wanting to point out that quite a few of our problems stem from lack of execution.
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
well THERES OUR PROBLEM! we’re playing with hats when we should be playing foosball
Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.
They asked him specifically about the hot reads—something that Fouts criticized during the game. They are probably all curious about what is going on with the pass protection because it hasn’t been good, and because Brooks Reed was just talking to the media about how he couldn’t believe we didn’t block him.
Shurmur gave in and told the media some specifics as to how we are trying to block these plays, and what is going wrong. He saved Colt from criticism by saying that Colt did his job and was under the impression that we had everyone blocked.
There really is no way to not throw players under the bus here unless you never give answers as to why bad things are happening. Then you become Mangini, who had more than his share of criticism from the fans and media about what he said/didn’t say. Rock and a hard place.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I think we got behind early for a couple of reasons. They drove the ball on us and then we fumbled the ball on the first snap.
I find this quote to be extremely humorous.
Dawgs By Nature: Where subject lines dare not tread.
Can we just get a three and out on the first series like the good ol’ days instead of fumbling it away in the first series? Jeez.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Nov 8, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 8 recs
We’re very strict with that protocol when it involves concussion situations
I’m glad to see this. These dudes don’t need dementia at 50. Not worth it.
"That’s the reality of it and I live in that reality." Shurmur
what were you saying?
Lifes A Dance, You Learn As You Go!
by findlaybrownslover on Nov 8, 2011 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
No kidding. I’m sure as hell not waiting until 50. Why aren’t they giving the ball to Metcalf?
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
by JustBob on Nov 8, 2011 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve decided that instead of bothering to point out all of the ridiculous things this man says in his press conferences, we should just post this and move on:
Dawgs By Nature: Where subject lines dare not tread.
by Adrock2099 on Nov 7, 2011 9:58 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
What would you prefer he do? Throw a tirade like a 12 year old (like some of our commenters)? Maybe scream about playoffs, or pull a “they are who we thought they were!”
The guy is an adult. Yes at times he seems like he this team could use some swagger, some toughness, but I think they’re trying to build an intelligent team to out smart the thugs in this division.
Maybe just a hint of emotion, or passion. I mean, can you PROVE that Shurmur isn’t a robot?
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 7, 2011 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
Robot hair doesn’t gray and start falling out after 8 weeks.
by HenryDawg on Nov 7, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think you just figured it out. Shurmur = Watson! Except a sort of malfunctioning, cranky Watson that hates Browns fans and wants to create Skynet.
Brownsyup
Hey Pat…
This is how you f*cking battle.
"That’s the reality of it and I live in that reality." Shurmur
by LocalMan on Nov 8, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The guy is an adult. Yes at times he seems like he this team could use some swagger, some toughness, but I think they’re trying to build an intelligent team to out smart the thugs in this division.
This made my night.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
Of course re-watching this game, the Texans are dirty as shit so we probably really need to get much better or much dirtier. Not sure which direction you prefer.
Remember: this is a team from the state that brought us “Debbie Does Dallas,” so dirty is to be expected.
by Off-the-Chain on Nov 7, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I find it so incredibly hard not to bring up Mangini when people say stuff like this. So I usually just cave and do it.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 7, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
I think they’re trying to build an intelligent team to out smart the thugs in this division.
This is exactly what Mangini was doing.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 8, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
Sure I think that’s what he was trying to do, he just wasn’t doing a good job of it. And therefore my point that it wasn’t as much about his intelligence as much as his stubborness and overall philosphy. Plus the guy was incredibly depressing. I just couldn’t stand his Billichick schtick.
Much like we should give Shurmur more than 2 years to say whether he is doing a good job, the same should be said for Mangini.
Personally I hated the Mangini hiring from day 1, and the more I learned about him and watching him trade our 5th overall for some Jets backups didn’t help, so I didn’t really care, but yes in reality he should have gotten at least 3. But the trump card is that once Holmgren got here that wasn’t going to happen. Oh well time to move on.
in reality he should have gotten at least 3. But the trump card is that once Holmgren got here that wasn’t going to happen. Oh well time to move on.
i agree with all of this, and i’m a mangini apologist.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but the fact that I agree with that and Holmgren didn’t bothers me.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
the holmgren / mangini dynamic will always be a source of frustration for me (i.e., holmgren lamely used mangini to get a “free year” and should have just dumped the guy after year 1), but there’s not a lot of point to dwelling on it b/c there’s nothing to be done about it.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
That’s fine, but why do we insist on evaluating Mangini as a GM? He is a coach and should have never been given GM duties, that was the fault of the owner. My evaluation of Mangini is as a coach only.
i couldn’t agree more. there is no point talking about mangini’s player acquisitions b/c that’s not his job. people love to point out, “he drafted veikune!!!” that makes no difference to me.
i was really excited about the prospect of mangini and heckert combining their skill sets.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
Didn’t Mangini pick his own GM and then have to take over GM duties himself after making an awful choice?
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
Picking a GM shouldn’t have been his job.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Did Mangini say he wanted to pick his own GM, given the option? (Do we even know if he had a choice?) If so, the failure of Kokinis (sp?) lies on Mangini.
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
lerner brought mangini in first, and after the savage/romeo car crash lerner’s priority was to ensure that the coach and gm were operating in lock step, so lerner allowed mangini way too much say in selecting the gm that ended up being kotnkus (sp). the wheels quickly came off of the kotnkus (sp)/mangini situation, as kotnkus (sp) thought he had real gm duties, and mangini sort of viewed himself as kotnkus (sp)’s boss.
from there, the relationship blew up and kotnkus (sp) was forced out. sounds like there’s plenty of blame to go around, not least of which belongs to mangini.
all of which has nothing to do with his ability to coach a football team.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
the failure lies in Lerner. Lerner is the one who gave that kind of power to a HC.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
absolutely. but as NTN says, picking a GM is not and should not be the job of the coach. i don’t care if mangini can pick a GM, i just need him to coach players.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t mind it being the job of the coach on rare occasions. if you have a guy like Parcells or BB running the ship…but those are extremely rare occasions.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
but really if the coach is picking him, it’s not a true “GM” role. it’s more of the pro personnel guy (think pioli in NE) who reports to the organization’s football guru … parcells or belichick, etc.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 9, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
i’ll solve the mystery for you: belichick
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 9, 2011 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
i assumed as much.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
It wasn't all bad.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I totally disagree with mangini not doing a good job of developing an intelligent team. he filled that team with intelligent JAGs. they were slow, but smart
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Well, the problem with this is we’re talking about a football game, not Revenge of the Nerds. I’d rather they toughened up a bit more since they don’t seem to have much brainpower behind the game plans at this point.
by Off-the-Chain on Nov 7, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
THis guy is a reaal empty headset. He’s reminds me of 1st Lt. Norman Dike In the ‘Band of Brothers’ episode when they assault the town of Foy and he freezes, falls apart, and is relieved of his command by Winters.
We could use Captain Spears right about now.
by Off-the-Chain on Nov 7, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
My favorite episode.
Take a hike, Hillis.
by Brownie's Year on Nov 8, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
man … hard to pull a favorite out of those.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
I think we got behind early for a couple of reasons. They drove the ball on us and then we fumbled the ball on the first snap. On a run that’s going to gain yards, can’t do that. So we spot them 10 points there
i thought we were down 14-0?
He was able to compete, he practiced, he followed all the guidelines and standards. Joe (Sheehan) is very to the letter on that. He got in the game, he competed for a while
so, this chump picks, like, a single buzz word for each presser?
There was only one snap yesterday where we didn’t have a hat for everybody that was rushing, however that works
was this meant to make me laugh? b/c it did. mostly b/c it’s very stupid.
I can’t believe we only ran one play that should have been hot. We cannot protect the passer, and we cannot run the ball without our top 3 RBs. Not looking good.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yea, I don’t understand that. You can’t blame the line if you aren’t using hot route. Cutler was brilliant last night against the same type of blitzes the Browns have seen.
Dont you think McCoy has the ability to audible to a hot route if he sees a blitz? I would think that is in every teams playbook.
I would think, but Fouts was openly questioning why we weren’t doing it during the game. I suspect Fouts knows what he is talking about.
Fouts knows what he is talking about, but he’s seeing the game live without the benefit of knowing the playbook and the distraction of having to keep talking to entertain viewers. He’s right that we weren’t seeing hot routes, but if Shurmur says we weren’t supposed to use them I am going to believe the guy who designed the offense.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Cutler was crazy good. But you have to blame the protection if you aren’t supposed to be throwing hot.
If there was only one play that should have been hot, that means there was only one play where we didn’t have a blocker for each pass rusher Houston threw at us. Colt thought he had everyone blocked on every play except that one (my guess was against that safety blitz).
It wasn’t that Houston was just bringing the house and we didn’t have the people to block them and therefore should have been hot but failed to execute the hots, it was that we should not have been using the hot routes in the first place, and failed to execute our protections.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Can you explain that last part more?
by youngergenerationbrownsfan on Nov 8, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
A hot route is used when the defense brings more than you can block. Defense blitzes 7 against a 6 man protection (5 OL and one back, let’s say), you can’t protect, you don’t have “a hat on a hat.” Every offense has to deal with this situation because even if they check to having more people in the protection, the defense can check to having one more rusher until the offense has the QB and 10 blockers and the defense is blitzing every player, and the defense is +1 in that numbers game.
Houston wasn’t bringing more rushers than we could block consistently. They were bringing as many or less rushers than we had protectors.We just weren’t blocking the right guys or the right gaps or something, I don’t know yet because I haven’t even watched the game a second time.
In any event, when a defense brings more than we can protect, it’s a sight adjustment by Colt and one or more receivers to use the hot route. There’s no audible, probably not any hand signal, they just see it and change what they are doing immediately. They usually have a specific defender or two to read as to whether or not to throw hot.
For example, the WR’s responsibility might be “if the linebacker over you blitzes, break your route to the inside.” Colt sees that LB blitz, WR sees that LB blitz, The WR changes his route to a slant, and Colt delivers the ball. If that LB doesn’t blitz, we aren’t supposed to throw hot. The 6-man protection is then set so that we can pick up all 6 of the other defenders in the 7-man front. We can block 6, and we throw hot if the 7th comes.
Does that make more sense? Also, here and here.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Shurmur’s response definitely makes more sense after reading this. I had assumed that a hot route included adjustments (I guess they would have to be sight adjustments) when the hat-on-hat protection broke down.
I learn something new everyday – most of which I forget by the following day.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
Keep in mind that while a hot route is a sight adjustment, not all sight adjustments are hot routes. Like the deep pass to Little; Little needs to adjust to what he sees there, but it isn’t because of the blitz.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Houston wasn’t bringing more rushers than we could block consistently. They were bringing as many or less rushers than we had protectors.
We should throw hot anytime we have 2+ blockers or less, since Pinkston and Lauvao don’t actually count.
"Tracers work both ways" ~US Army Ordnance
I can’t believe we only ran one play that should have been hot. We cannot protect the passer…
I’ve read this quote from Dan Fouts – from his commentary during the game:
“"it doesn’t appear the Browns have any hot receiver concepts built into their passing game right now, because McCoy continues to see linebackers, safeties, and nickelbacks coming at him, especially on third down."”
At this point I’m confused regarding the constant (successful) blitzing, and how much of it is the fault of the o-line (and/or the RBs not picking it up, etc.), and whether or not we’re “running a hot read”, and whether or not McCoy is just not seeing the hot read. How much creedence would you give to Fouts’ statement above given what you saw Sunday? It seems almost inconceivable to me that what he says could be true (and if it is true, what does this say about Shurmur and his game planning / play calling?).
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
I can’t imagine they dont have a audible for obvious blitzes. Every team prepares for different coverages, ESPECIALLY blitzes. I am assuming Fouts was point out the offense seems confused.
I can’t believe we only ran one play that should have been hot
You can’t blame the line if you aren’t using hot route
I saw these from rufio and Dorn above, which is one of the main reasons I made my comment.
I’d be interested to hear from rufio in particular (who is one of the sharpest folks around here when it comes to the Xs and Os…) and Dorn (who I also consider to be pretty savvy on some of this stuff).
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
I really think the offense is so vanilla that other teams are just sending everyone in on just about every down. You can see the line is getting overwhelmed. One of the Texas DEs said he was hardly getting blocked so I think Shurmur’s hat-for-hat comment is incorrect. A combination of a crap-designed offense and a QB that still hasn’t figured it out is giving opposing defenses a field day. I’m now convinced that McCoy is not the guy AND Shurmur is not the guy. Too bad we are stuck with Shurmur. We’ll probably dump McCoy since he was only a 3rd rounder and a gamble there but Shurmur was hand picked by the Walrus for reasons known only to himself and Shurmur’s uncle Fritz. So we are going to have to put up with Pat for another year at least though I believe he is the leading candidate for worst problem on the team.
Brownsyup
Shurmur definitely seems to be in over his head. The jury is still out on whether McCoy is the guy. Not looking too good at this point, although it is difficult to judge with the myriad of problems surrounding him (o-line problems, no WRs, no running back, etc. etc.). Hopefully he’ll get manage to get some confidence going and show some improvement by the end of the year regardless.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
I still think we can get a 3rd rounder for Colt.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
Teams have seen us struggle with the blitz all year. That’s why they are blitzing us. They see us struggle on film, and they see ways that they can exploit our protections and weaknesses in personnel.
Shurmur isn’t wrong about the way things are supposed to be done by definition: he’s the guy who decides how it is supposed to go.
Obviously, it is not going the way its supposed to right now, but he’s right about how it is supposed to go.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
My observation was more from hearing Fouts comment and then looking for it, and it’s hard to know for sure from just watching casually on TV. Rufio would be the better bet.
Thanks.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Well, I guess now I’m officially and thoroughly confused.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
McCoy should be calling a hot read on almost every play… or when he sees one. The WR has to see it too or it doesn’t work.
Take a hike, Hillis.
by Brownie's Year on Nov 8, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
Wait what? Do you have the link to this?
Did he say there was one installed in the offense, or that we should be using one on every play?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
i didn’t actually watch the game, so i can’t comment directly, but i will say that as a hall of fame quarterback i’d give dan fouts the benefit of the doubt and consider that he knows what he’s talking about on this stuff.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Combining Fouts’ comments and Shurmur’s, we have them in the offense, we just don’t use them much right now. We didn’t see the hot route happening much against Houston, for sure (exactly once, according to Pat).
But that doesn’t mean we don’t have a way of dealing with pressure and a way to protect McCoy. Anyone can see that we aren’t executing well in that phase of the game right now (McCoy is getting thrown around like a rag doll) but Fouts is trying to turn that into some sort of inherent flaw in our offense instead of us just sucking.
For the most part we are supposed to be blocking the rushers and we just aren’t. Hopefully I’ll get time to break some of this down this week.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Seems the TEs and RBs are consistently missing blocks. I remember seeing a play where Watson started a route and completely ignored the blitzer coming in on his left side. McCoy ended up getting killed. It seems everyone wants to run a route, but no one wants to block. On another note, it would be cool if we did what San Fran did to us and send JT out on a route. Pancakes will rain from the Heavens when JT catches the ball. Hmmmm pancake dinner for all. Even the homeless downtown would get a meal.
"The rush of battle is a potent and almost lethal addiction, for war is a drug."
I see this numerous times when the RB and even Marecic both release on routes and nobody even chips a guy. If they’re going to do that then Colt automatically has to go to them because obviously someone is unblocked but that isn’t happening.
I’ve also seen where the back releases into the flat and is wide open and Colt doesn’t seem them. I’m not blaming just Colt, this offense is bad enough that its obvious we have problems everywhere and nobody is on the same page. Colt said something in his press conference about abandoning the play book because they go down in score early – that’s just stupid. You have the whole game to make that up, stick with the play book and count on the D to make an adjustment.
Yeah – I thought the stuff about abandoning the play book was interesting. You’d think he must be echoing whatever Shurmur is saying or doing. Obviously Colt isn’t making that decision.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
We can block with a 6 man protection (a TE) if both backs get out into the route, and we can block with a 5-man protection even if they don’t.
They don’t abandon the whole playbook and just start playing backyard football when they go down, it’s more about abandoning the gameplan because the conditions of the game have changed so dramatically.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
That’s my point though. 14 points within the first 5 minutes sucks, but you have plenty of time to implement your game plan (sans fumbles) and get back in it.
Yeah I feel you. At the same time, I think you have to take the new game situation into account. You can’t let it completely dictate what you do, but time left and score definitely factor in to decision making.
On that note though, I don’t understand why you don’t go for it on 4th and 1. You’re already down and things are really not looking good, you gotta pull out all the stops and get a little crazy.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Watson might not have been in the protection on that play. I saw at least once where a back was too worried about his assignment and not “just blocking the guy that is going to hit your QB.”
I think that’s probably a symptom of having brand new backs in the offense—they are thinking and not “just playing.”
It doesn’t matter at all what players want to do; they have an assignment and for TEs and backs it could be blocking or it could be getting out into the route. They wouldn’t just go out on the route when they are supposed to block because McCoy wouldn’t even be looking for them so they’d never get the ball, and they’d get their QB killed.
I would love it if we threw to to JT.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I understand the assignment part for the RBs and TEs and the precision required of the WCO. I still think that if they see a blitz coming off the edge like a bat outta hell, they need to at least throw an elbow or shoulder to slow down the rush (at least get in his way in some shape or form). Seems the RBs are wiffing big time with this and it cost us dearly this year. I am really surprise McCoy is not hurt.
"The rush of battle is a potent and almost lethal addiction, for war is a drug."
They would have assignments to chip pass rushers. If that’s not their assignment they can’t do it because they have to get into the route quickly either to catch the ball or stretch a defender. “Do your job” isn’t just ESPN bullcrap, the players need to do exactly what their job is on every play or they can screw the rest of the team.
Whether or not TEs and RBs chip or block is up to the coaches, not the players.
McCoy is going to be in a wheelchair by the end of the year at this rate.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
you’ve said this elsewhere … mccoy’s toughness is on full display lately. kid is no sissy.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
It’s pretty impressive. That alone makes me think he should get another year with a real line and at least one good receiver.
I tentatively agree with this, but it’s mainly on the emotional idea that I really like Colt and would love love love to see him at QB for years. I just would like to see how much better he could do with better weapons. Sure, maybe Manning or Brady could look fine with this team. Colt will never be Manning or Brady, but he could still be good.
It’s a good thing I’m not a GM.
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
The thing is that look what happened to the Colts when Manning went out. I know the Pats went 11-5 when Brady went out but I bet they would be awful right now if he did. If Colt can be a really good QB on a really well built team that’s a better formula for long term plug and play. That’s just my opinion.
I just wish he would prove it to us less, and have things adjusted better so that he doesn’t get hit as much. I’d like to see him pointing things out and trying to improve the line and WRs around him. He seemed to do that with Little on Sunday on the sideline, but the pre-snap stuff can get a lot better, and he can help the other guys keep him upright.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
yeah, his inability to adjust protections is, similarly, on full display with his toughness.
i need to see more of that and less of his toughness … i’m going to disagree w/ henry, i can’t sign off on handing him the reins again next year just b/c he keeps getting up.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, let’s pose a scenario:
Andrew Luck is gone. Justin Blackmon is available. So are Barkley, RG3, and Jones.
Do you take Blackmon who, correct me if I’m wrong, is a pretty great prospect similar to (maybe?) Calvin Johnson? Assume that this causes us to start Colt for another year. Or do you take Jones or Barkley instead?
Keep in mind I haven’t watched either of these guys, and I really don’t do well in evaluating talent.
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
personally, i take barkley. you must solve the qb problem. if you have a good-to-great quarterback, you can potentially win a super bowl w/ troy brown and deion branch as your primary receivers…
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
That would mean Barkley would have to be Tom Brady, which is much more rare than a really good receiver or two. Not even Calvin Johnson good, more like Santonio Holmes good. Those guys come out every year.
Personally if we went the QB route I would rather do a complete changeup and take RG3. But if Blackmon is as good as promised I think he makes Colt better from day 1. This QB draft is deep. We could even take a rd. 2 insurance/developmental guy and still hit gold.
yeah, i said “potentially” on purpose. expecting barkley (or any qb) to turn out as brady is awfully tough, and you can’t really rely on troy brown and deion branch to be enough to win. but the point remains: a good qb is virtually certain to make average receivers better. the inverse is not necessarily true.
as far as the qb strategy, at some point you have to push your chips to the center of the table. you can’t muddle along w/ 3rd round developmental guy (colt), and rd 2 insurance guy, and so forth, and expect to accomplish much. if it’s rg3 over barkley, i can live with that, as holmgren/heckert/shurmur know way more than i do, but i think it’s time to take a first round qb.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t want to draft a QB (or play him) until we get a better o-line and better receivers. Because Barkley or any rookie would suck with this current team.
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
I agree with this. I’m of the opinion that a QB should be one of the later pieces you add so that he walks into a good situation and doesn’t have to carry the team. In this situation, I’d take Blackmon without hesitation.
We could always commit to Colt for another year AND draft a QB high.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
That’s not really committing to Colt though and he’s sure to see the writing on the wall.
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
That writing will say, “You have another year to prove yourself, but if you fail we are prepared to move on.” It’s all on Colt at that point.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
That writing will say, "You have another year to prove yourself, but if you fail we are prepared to move on."
That writing will say, "You had better start putting up some impressive performances, or else we are prepared to move on."
With a round 1 draft pick on the sideline, the fans’ patience will wear thin pretty quick if we don’t start winning.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 9, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
He strikes me as the type that would play better if he knew someone else was waiting to take his job.
At that point, he’s just keeping the seat warm.
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
Yeah if you need that kind of motivation you aren’t going to cut it.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 10, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
you can potentially win a SB with those guys as your receivers and a good-to-great QB IF you have an excellent D. I think this D has that potential.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
let’s say we are sitting at 11 and 15 like they posted earlier when they were talking about possible draft scenarios. Or if we are instead 9 and 17. I still think we have a chance at RG3 at 17 so I go Blackmon.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
this is a hypothetical scenario where you choose between Barkley, Jones, Blackmon, and RG3 if they are there. The 9 is more of where I think the Browns may end up drafting (just a wild guess though)
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Man I am glad I don’t have to make that decision. And in reality, I think we’ve already won enough games to not have that high of a pick.
But I think I take Jones. Obviously I’d like to be able to talk to all of those guys and get a better feel for them and what they’ll be like. I also want to see RGIII play more games against tough opponents and to see him measure up at the combine (is he really 6’2" and 220, or is he closer to 6’, 200?)
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Not that you shouldn’t disagree with me, but don’t you think he will get better at pre-snap reads and making adjustments as he plays more? But his toughness is not something that can be learned or developed.
don’t you think he will get better at pre-snap reads and making adjustments as he plays more?
it stands to reason, but i honestly don’t know. i feel like it should have improved after 16 starts, and clearly it hasn’t. in my opinion, the ability to recognize defenses and coverages, etc., is system-agnostic. his experience from last year should translate at the least to recognizing stuff.
toughness is not teachable, and this dude’s got it to go. i admire that a lot.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
I just have this terrible fear that we’ll trade Colt and in two seasons he’ll get his act together and be awesome.
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
i literally have no fear that colt will ever be awesome.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
I know Chargers fans are somewhat mythical, but if you were one, would you be made that Brees won a SB even though your QB is still damn good but hasn’t really sniffed a championship?
abso-friggin-lutely. i think i’d be more pissed w/ aj smith, though, than rivers’ performance. said differently, i’m not entirely sure brees was the missing piece in a SD ring. norv turner and aj smith were.
but i hear the point.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
It should already be happening. Some guys just never develop in that area and I don’t know why. I don’t think NFL teams do either because they’d all be more successful if they could consistently develop Peyton Manning.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
get better at pre-snap reads and making adjustments (etc. etc.) as he plays more
Certainly true that some guys never develop in these areas. But conversely, when it comes to QBs, I’d say the majority if not the vast majority of (really good / elite) QBs in the NFL take longer than a single season to start getting really good in those areas. In many cases much longer. That’s one of the reasons we see so many good to great QBs over the years who take several years to really shine and rise to the top.
The bottom line is the position of QB is arguably by far the most arduous skill position to master in the NFL and generally takes much longer for guys to grow into that position coming out of college than any other position. There are exceptions, but they are extremely rare.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 9, 2011 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
A couple more thoughts to add to my comments above…
I’m not sure Colt will ever make it as a legit starting QB, must less rise to the upper echelon, but I think my points are relevant to the conversation.
I think many people, understandably become impatient and have short memories in this regard. Certainly understandable when you’re a long time Cleveland fan, and you see guys like Cam Newton and Andy Dalton making a splash out there, etc. But Cam Newton is a frigging supernatural athlete and a glaring exception to the rule IMO. And Dalton was vastly underrated last year coming out of college IMO – and I said as much in many of my comments leading up to the 2011 draft.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 9, 2011 8:53 AM EST up reply actions
1 good rookie season doesn’t make a franchise QB though. I’m not saying it will happen with either of these two, but it’s never impossible.
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
Barring some barring some unforeseen debacle or natural disaster, I believe Cam Newton is on his way to NFL stardom. I watch him play and I can’t believe my eyes. He evidently has a great head on his shoulders, which I believe is the only thing people really questioned about him. Turns out the guy probably has the mind of a brain surgeon to go along with his freakish athletic prowess and we are seeing all of it on full display now.
With Dalton, as I’ve been saying since last spring I think he is going to be really good, but it is certainly possible his rookie year might not necessarily translate to the elite ranks down the road. He’s doing really well, albeit with a GREAT rookie WR and a solid team around him. Cinci was a vastly underrated team before this season. Across the board they are very solid.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 9, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
Let me see if i understand this correctly: The hot read is something installed in order to get rid of the ball quickly. without one, the blockers must block, and when they fail, it isn’t mccoys fault, because he didn’t have time to go thru his reads and let the receivers get open?
by youngergenerationbrownsfan on Nov 8, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Some plays are not “without” a hot route even if we don’t throw it.
A hot route is a quick throw off of a player that we can’t block in the protection. If we have a 6 man protection against a 7 man box, there is one dude we can’t block. If he comes, we have to “throw hot”.
Sometimes this just means altering McCoy’s progression—he might be reading deep-to-shallow, but when that guy blitzes he has to go immediately to the shallow route already being run.
Sometimes it means a slight altering of the receivers route. It might be a 12 yard curl, but when he sees the guy blitz past him, he might have to cut the route as soon as it happens—say at 5 yards.
In any event, we are keying one guy or one area of the field for the hot route (e.g. if there are two LBs showing blitz over the right side, we might be able to block one of them but not both, so if they both come we have to throw hot, but if either does we don’t have to). So we should set the protection to block everyone else, and then read one guy or area as the “hot”. If we get the “hot” read, the ball has to be out.
Right now we aren’t getting the “hot” read a lot. So in my situation with two LBs showing blitz on the right, we are only getting one of those two LBs rushing us. We should be able to block one (but not both) and one comes on a blitz, then we shouldn’t throw hot—we aren’t getting the “hot” read, but the play still has one built in in case we need it.
Is this making more sense? Sorry, I am much better while using visuals.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Reading all of this about hot routes makes me think even more that QB-WR chemistry and timing is very important. These routes don’t seem concrete like a 12 yard curl or a 7 yard post, they seem much more fluid and dependent on how the receiver sees what’s going on. To be able to make this throw reliably, you need to know exactly how your WR is seeing it and you have to know how he’ll react to the situation and where he will be. All of this takes tons and tons of reps to reach that level of comfort and instinctiveness, which the best QB-WR combos have all seemed to have.
However, all of this is just my understanding, which could be off.
Timing and “seeing the same thing” are absolutely critical. But just putting a QB and a couple of receivers together for 5 years doesn’t guarantee offensive success. It’s got to be the right QB and the right receivers.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
(On if Little should have run a different route on the interception) – “I’m going to leave that to the correction. No, Greg was running the right route. Greg needs to look for the football.”
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
Yeah – didn’t quite get this. Shurmur seems to contradict himself with that answer.
I kept wondering if Little was supposed to stop / come back on that route.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 8:12 AM EST up reply actions
When they showed Little talking to McCoy after that play it seemed like they were talking about the route. Now I wonder if there was some kind of route variant that McCoy wanted to see based on the coverage. I think Shurmur doesn’t know what he is talking about and that is a pretty amazing statement about a head coach. I have zero faith in this guy.
Brownsyup
Watch the presser with Colt. The question was “Did you expect Greg to be at that spot during your interception.” Colt nods yes. No verbal acknowledgment, just a nod yes.
by SBP on Nov 8, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
generally, shouldn’t the answer to that question always be yes? “qb X, when you threw that interception, did you expect someone from you team to be there?” if the answer isn’t yes … then we may have problems.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
“We’ve been working on this thing where the WR teleports about 15 yards downfield. It’s really a great playcall, and I’m not sure why he didn’t do it there, you’ll have to talk to him.”
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yes, I saw that. After watching him answer that I’m inclined to believe Little was definitely supposed to come back on that route. Colt pretty much always does everything he can to deflect any blame from any of his teammates, so it was interesting watching his reluctant nod. Not much he could say (and he’s definitely not going to say “yeah, Little was supposed to come back on that route”).
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
This is the problem with this team, Colt finally makes a definitive throw to a spot and the guy isn’t there. It’s way to easy to just blame one aspect of the offense – they all suck right now, but if I had to say where we need to improve the most it would be O Line. Again it sucks because losing Steinbach, Yates and Womack and cough, Vickers, cough seriously has been a huge problem
I was going to say – here we’ve gotten to a point where everyone agrees “lets please just start taking some shots downfield. if the guy isn’t there so be it!”. So he does, and the guy’s not there. Extremely frustrating. One completion like that and you’ve immediately stretched the field for the series and made them respect you deep, but wham, instead we’re stuck right back with 8 in the box and Colt keeps playing timid, not able to trust his receivers. UGH.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
i really really hope that shurmur said to colt, “you throw that same ball every single time. we’ll get people who can run the routes/catch the ball.” b/c that’s the only way we’ll figure out if colt has anything more than the shit he’s given us so far, is if he has the confidence to play his game.
the legend is that parcells used to say to phil simms, “you throw it as hard as you need. if the receivers can’t catch it, we’ll get new receivers.”
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Good stuff.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Well he’s also not seeing the field well so I’m not going to dump it all on the receivers either. They’re just not on the same page. 4th and 5th string RBs who don’t know when to pass pro or when to run routes doesn’t help either.
The Colt playing timid excuse is lame. If you’re getting pummeled or can’t make the throw physically that’s one thing, but if you’re just scared to trust your receivers (even if they do make mistakes) then you shouldn’t be a starting QB.
Yeah, I wasn’t really trying to lay it all on the receivers. I’ve said many times that Colt is playing without confidence and without good poise in the pocket. The “playing timid” thing is just unfortunate, but I think there’s some truth to it. One thing I also wonder is whether Shurmur might be backing off the downfield play calling after a play like that.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
(although I DO we are severely lacking in talent at the WR position…)
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
i feel the need to share my thoughts on the wide receiver position for the cleveland browns here: they suck ass.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
When he says “Greg needs to look for the football” its what I basically said in the game thread.
That’s 4 verticals (I think, as I couldn’t see the WRs on the other side of the formation) which is the same play we scored with deep to Cribbs last week.
Little’s job is to burst upfield, get into the deep seam, and look inside as soon as he’s open. McCoy might lead him into the middle of the field between 2-deep safeties, and Greg has to be ready to “speed cut” (i.e. not a sharp break, but more of a “roll” in the route) inside to get it. With a single-high safety (I believe what we were seeing), he has to be ready to catch the ball as soon as he passes that first defender, looking inside and ready to adjust to the ball.
You can see in the clip Little just keeps running deep. It isn’t designed as an over the top, “bomb”, but more of an intermediate route that will be completed somewhere at or in front of the safeties, probably 18-20 yards downfield.
He was running the right route in that he was running the pass concept we had called: he was running one of the four “verticals” he just didn’t do the right thing within the route. i suspect this sort of thing is rampant in our offense right now.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I wonder if this keeps happening in practice too, and is part of the reason why Colt is so timid about throwing downfield. He simply can’t trust his receivers yet.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
There’s no way to tell, really. That ball looked pretty much where it needed to be and it had the right trajectory and a nice spiral if I remember correctly. He can make that throw, but it’s not the kind of throw that is going to make anyone say “damn, that was incredible.”
My guess is it’s probably a mix of WRs not open/not seeing what Colt sees, pass pro lapses, and Colt not making good reads to know what is going to be open. Purely a guess.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
…and he cant hit them with passes. plus the line cant give him enough time to execute them. He has missed open receivers, he has take too long to deliver the ball, he does not look off coverage, the line gives him minimal time, the receivers dont make the catch all the time. A mess all the way around. Maybe that is why the deeper plays are not called.
You don’t know what you are seeing.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
We call deeper plays all the time and Colt can make the throws.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
No, I am saying what you said:
he cant hit them with passes
the deeper plays are not called
Does not match up with what is happening on the field.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Colt can throw the ball, like he did on Sunday for the INT and it doesn’t mean a damn thing if the WRs don’t do their jobs. He has the ability to throw the ball deep to receivers where they can catch it.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I thought that was the knock on him coming into the league on all the scouting reports. He was not an accurate deep passer, and he did not have the arm strength to hit the deep out and the long ball. From what I have seen most of his throws are short.
So you are saying the WR’s are not helping him out on the deep balls? Could be
I’m not a buyer of this. I see Colt making more horrible deep passes than good deep passes. And I personally don’t see deep accuracy as something you can develop.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Nov 8, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
so he never actually makes them / we never actually execute them b/c of lack of time for colt?
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
Colt McCoy’s scouting report for the draft said he was much better suited for a short passing game. I think it is a combination that he doesn’t throw the a good deep ball (too much air at times) and the receivers are not open, he doesnt see the field all the time, and the line is not giving him alot of time to look at more than one or two options. It is a combination of all these things I think.
It’s on a lot of people. Sometimes Colt is throwing off of his back foot when he should be stepping up, sometimes Colt is missing them—but even Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers miss their guys sometimes, sometimes we don’t execute the protection, sometimes Colt is too predictable with the snap count and doesn’t set our blockers up to succeed, sometimes there is pressure, sometimes there are drops, sometimes no one can blow the top off the coverage so everyone deep is covered and we have to check down.
But Colt can make the throws deep, and we’ve called about the amount of deep routes that I expected. The plays are being called deep, people are running routes deep, we just suck. And not saying that Colt has been good or exempt from that, but he can make the throws.
This is the NFL though, and it doesn’t matter who can make the throws, it is who can make the throws under pressure, who can pull the mask off the coverage and anticipate what is going to happen, and who can make those split second decisions faster and better than everyone else AND THEN make the throw.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Nov 8, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is the NFL though, and it doesn’t matter who can make the throws, it is who can make the throws under pressure, who can pull the mask off the coverage and anticipate what is going to happen, and who can make those split second decisions faster and better than everyone else AND THEN make the throw.
a far more eloquent way to say what i’ve been trying to say for a while. colt is physically capable of making enough throws to be successful, but that doesn’t really matter, for all the reasons you cite.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
Should just copy them all and set up “Rules of Football” post so people can read it.
by youngergenerationbrownsfan on Nov 9, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
I’m glad you said this, its pretty much what I’ve been feeling for the last 2 weeks. That said, can we get out of panic mode and stick to the plan of building this team through the draft and accept there’s going to be a little pain along the way?
I ask this in all seriousness.
i don’t think it’s wrong to be in full panic mode for 2011. this team is a disaster at the moment. for those who expected a bumpy ride it’s not so bad, for those who were thinking this team might go .500 … well, that crew was nuts to begin with, so i don’t blame them for thinking the sky is falling.
at this point, though, it’s hard not to be concerned for the future given the evidence that has been presented. i understand it’s only 8 games, but that’s the only 8 games we’ve got, and the shurmur regime hasn’t exactly blown us away w/, well, anything.
right now, my mantra is that we’ve gone all in on feeling the pain this year by completely overhauling the systems we use for all three phases of the game. hopefully, come 2012, we’ve gotten through the pain and start to see some results.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
I thought we’d go 7-9, but I admit I was being really optimistic. Things look bad now; no one can deny it. But I’m not ready to fire Shurmer. Am I impressed? No, not really. But maybe this guy can be a decent HC if he has an OC to help him out. Maybe the reason why Shurmer looks badly now is because he has too much on his plate.
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
i think shurmur stinks in stereo so far, but i’m nowhere close to ready to fire the guy. and your other comment is spot on … as long as heckert is around, i’ll feel good about at least acquiring the talent that a coach can work with.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not impressed with Shumur either, and I was okay with firing Mangini. I’m kind of waiting on a final judgment to see if he improves with his own OC next year. It was dumb to have him take on both responsibilities in his first year, and I have a feeling this is why we look atrocious on offense.
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
maybe this guy can be a decent HC if he has an OC to help him out
I think this is having a much greater impact that anyone ever anticipated. He is definitely in over his head – and this is not necessarily a criticism. He is neck deep in a horrifically complicated situation. He needs an OC in the worst way.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
I think this is having a much greater impact thatanyoneHolmgren/Heckert/Shurmur ever anticipated, but that virtually everyone on DBN was all over from the second it was announced.
fixed.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 10:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Had a feeling that was coming :-/
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 9, 2011 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, man. one of my great frustrations in a season full of them.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 9, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
This one issue is really the first issue when I’ve seriously questioned Holmgren’s judgement.
I think back then I just hoped / figured he and Shurmur knew what they were doing, but now in hindsight I realize how bad a decision it was to give Shurmur the reigns without an OC.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 9, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
right now I see 5-11. If Hillis was fully healthy, I would see possibly 6-10. You can have a very mediocre QB as long as you can run and keep them off guard. They can load up the box, our RBs don’t get any yards, and then Colt has to pass in 3rd and longs.
This is at best a 5-11 team and Colt does not look good.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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This is the kind of thing I was pondering… I thought Little might have run the wrong variant based upon the coverage. Basically we have receivers and a QB that aren’t on the same page. How do you get them on the same page? Maybe work with them after hours or practice before the game like Manning does? What is allowed by the NFL? Also, this begs the question: why are other QBs (even rookie QBs like Dalton) and their receivers (like A.J. Green) totally on the same page and doing great things? This is where I fault McCoy and to some extent Little. I see very little promise in McCoy and I think I should have seen it by now. Again I will say it, it is up to McCoy to show us he is the guy. It is not for us to have to make excuses for him as to why he is not showing it.
Brownsyup
How do you get them on the same page?
Training camps and minicamps with a coach. Reps where the QB and WRs have to read on the fly. Reps, reps, and more reps.
why are other QBs (even rookie QBs like Dalton) and their receivers (like A.J. Green) totally on the same page and doing great things?
Probably a combination of things. The complexity of their college offenses and how well that matches up with what they are doing now. Simply how good they are at it and what kind of knack they have for these types of things. The amount of offense that the coaches have tried to install this year, the veterans around the team and how well they know the offense, etc, etc, etc.
Bottom line is we suck right now.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Please set the offense down and make them watch the Packers and Chargers game over and over until they get it, because right now they have’nt a clue.
Wut?!
"There's a gleam men, there's a gleam!" Marty
by Red-Right-88 on Nov 8, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
We do have another major situation. If Hillis is not back next year, and Hardesty who is injury prone is our only back, we absolutely have ZERO running game. I mean ZERO running game. I think this almost assures a deal getting done with Hillis
Man I wish you were right. But I’m almost certain there will be no Hillis in Cleveland next year. If there was going to be a deal I think it would have happened already. And what is doubly sad is that he can go anywhere as they did not trade him. So how are we all going to like it when he starts bulling his way though are secondary in a Steelers or a Ravens uniform? Not much. But you are completely right about ZERO running game which adds yet another glaring hole in this team where there should be none.
Brownsyup
even looking at the draft, there’s not any really major, major players out there up for grabs. Alabama’s Richardson has been doing good, that kid from Wisconsin has been doing good.
Even going with that much of a stretch, I don’t know how I would feel about having a rookie RB with a third year quarterback trying to get the ball down the field.. and our Defense needs all the help it can get.
I wouldn’t draft him till round 3 though.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
if someone takes him in the 2nd, they are overvaluing the value of hype
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Brandon Jackson should be back? Not sure if that helps us much, but he should be back.
by SBP on Nov 8, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Hillis = “good as gone”. Forte could be available. LaMichael James is really an explosive dude and should be there for first pick.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
No thank you on James.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
If we were a team that was already a .500 club/competitive for the playoffs, and we already had a long term feature back (or if we could resign Hillis) then maybe. I think Sproles is an awesome weapon to have but a lot of backs who rely purely on speed can’t translate that to the NFL (Spiller, Bush, Ford, etc.) and those that do typically don’t last long.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
It is, but he certainly hasn’t provided the spark a top 10 pick should to this point.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Agree. His ypc is 6.6 this year… but he’s only had 17 rushes so that’s inflated. Last year it was 3.8 on 74, which isn’t awesome, but I don’t think Buffalo’s line was that great either.
Sammy Watkins for Heisman
6.6 is very good in the NFL, but you have to consider the role he’s playing. Defense will give you 7 yards on 3rd and 9 every time, right? Buffalo’s line didn’t seem that good last year to me, and I really don’t pay attention to the Bills much but I don’t think Fitzpatrick was taking as much of the heat off the RBs until this year, right? Who knows how CJ would look if Fred Jax went down right now.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yeah, but he was pretty much drafted because he is ludicrous fast. I consider a lot of the small, fast skill players who can catch the ball and are dangerous after the catch to play similar positions. I mean Sproles is a RB, but he’s not going to pound it up the middle 30 times a game, he’s going to catch it from Brees and run, you know?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
If he is as good as advertised, he is maybe Sproles without the return game. Not worth it before the 3rd
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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He is not worth it in the 2nd.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
At this point they might as well try Little at running back and use double TE with moore and watson. If Little is even half effective there you can use motion to put the other team in bad match ups if they play for the run. I just want them to try something. Anything
by triple 000 on Nov 8, 2011 10:37 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I sit here and see Mangini breaking down Vick magnificently on SC and all I can do is cry.
In Golan we trust.
I haven’t watched Sportscenter in a few years so I am a bit disappointed that I am missing the Mangini analysis.
You also missed Matt Millan crying today.
Take a hike, Hillis.
by Brownie's Year on Nov 8, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yes. Ms.Sausage was grilling the crap out of him about it and he cracked.
In Golan we trust.
by SpecialBrownie on Nov 9, 2011 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
MoMass is fine. At this point – can we even call it abnormal if you get sick to your stomach watching the team play?
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
i personally get the full body aches
Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.
by pwndabear on Nov 8, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Coach: son, it’s my understanding that you’re not feeling so well
Mogwai Massacre: coach, it’s my stomach. i’m feeling all nauseous and woozy.
C: well, son, you battled last week. and you’ve battled this week. and you competed both weeks. but all the battling and competing put your head at risk and you’re having some concussion symptoms. i understand that battling through concussion symptoms is not good, however that works.
MM: no, coach. it’s this team. we suck so bad, it gives me the mouth sweats and the runs … and then i get dehydrated, and now i’m woozy in the head. we suck too much coach. i’m allergic…
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think the biggest injury of the year was Steinbach. We cannot hold the interior, nor pull to attack the perimeter with Pinkston. Not his fault, you usually don’t count on a 5th rounder holding down a guard spot. However, I do think we should fire the position coach that makes him play the game in concrete boots.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
you usually don’t count on a 5th rounder holding down a guard spot.
There were people here in the offseason who would have argued that point.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Well based on all accounts coming from Berea you would. What are you trying to say? You don’t believe the media?
I will admit, I underestimated the value of steinbach.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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bross, this is directed at you but so many people do that. Nobody gave 1 lick about Billy Yates last year and Porkchop was always considered just meh. Then Yates retires and everyone is freaking out.
If there is one thing this FO did that pissed me off was let Womack go when we have a RT made out of glass.
by HenryDawg on Nov 8, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, i can’t believe they were ok w/ the idea of pashos holding that spot down.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
I wanted us to get a FA RT but I thought Pashos would be better. I was wrong. He was worse than a FA RT, he was SH IT
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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I just ment shit in general, but nice one.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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I figured. hence the “nice one”.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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SH IT: Slow Hapless Inept Turnstile
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 9, 2011 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
I had forgotten about yates, yes. He was an excellent backup, but he was just that. With yates at either guard position we would definitely be in a better situation, but he was the 3rd best imo between him porkchop and steinbach.
I liked Womack too. I wanted the browns to resign him, especially since he was a Holmgren guy anyways (it made sense then). But womack isn’t relevant to above, because this was talk of what happened after Steinbach went down and by that point, Womack wasn’t on the roster.
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It’s funny, people still believe that Steinbach was so important despite the fact that he’s been rated near the bottom of the league for guards in the past 2 years.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Nov 8, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
regardless of those grades, he’s clearly pretty crucial to this particular line. not having him in there has been really bad.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
Look at the stats when Hillis ran to the left behind Thomas and Steinbach (I think he avg like 5.4 ypc). The way that guy was able to pull I find it shocking that he would be rated toward the bottom.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
I could be wrong but didn’t hillis have the best success running to the right last year?
by The Licensed Pessimist on Nov 8, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Steinbach’s clear strength is pulling, and Hillis to me seemed to have the most success running outside when led by both a pulling guard and Vickers.
I didn’t think a guard mattered a ton until I saw the line without steinbach.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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I doubt the line would be any better with Steinbach, unless our guards are literally the worst guards in the league.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Nov 8, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
you’re doing it wrong. the line was markedly better last year with steinbach in the lineup.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 8, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
But that doesn’t mean anything in regards to Steinbach. Both Mack and Thomas are playing worst than they did last year, and I don’t think it’s because the guard who was ranked second worst in the league the past two years held them all together.
This entire offense is just in disarray.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Nov 9, 2011 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
well, we KNOW we’ve upgraded at one position on the o-line; that being RT, where anyone in the universe would have been an upgrade over st. clair. so the change at RT has, if anything, had the effect of improving the performance of the line.
outside of RT, the only other changes to this year’s offensive line are at the guard positions. floyd womack played the greatest number of games at right guard last year. it seems obvious to me that lauvao is a downgrade from womack. steinbach started all year at left guard. it is so obvious as to be self-evident that pinkston is a downgrade from steinbach.
i would argue that steinbach was clearly a better left guard than womack was right guard, evidenced in no small part by the fact that womack’s official position listing last year was “T”, and by the fact that he hasn’t played yet in arizona this year. further, given that lauvao has had an entire year in the building, and pinkston is a rookie, i would argue that the drop off from steinbach to pinkston is much greater than the drop off from womack to lauvao.
in summary, losing steinbach was and is a huge blow to this offensive line, regardless of what rankings you cite. perhaps mack and He Who Is 73 are playing worse than last year — your claim, not mine, prepare to be pancaked — but the single biggest difference in the quality of the line is left guard. period.
This entire offense is just in disarray.
now this i agree with.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 9, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As much as St Claire absolutely stank in pass protection, he was a decent run blocker from what I recall. Without him we have at least mildly better pass protection but we may have taken a hit in run blocking – hard (for me) to tell when the guard next to him is nothing to write home to mom about either.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
This was my impression of St. Clair as well. I think letting him go showed Shurmur’s emphasis on pass-blocking compared to Mangini’s emphasis on run-blocking.
i think it had more to do with not sucking than anything.
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 10, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Agree. What he was able to do in run blocking was not enough to offset his atrocious pass (non) protection.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
"Whether he really means 'more' or 'Carlton Mitchell more' remains to be seen."
-C. Pokorny
I’ve been agreeing with you a lot lately but this is still one of your sillier arguments.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 8, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
Cribbs made my year
I was at the texans game Sunday and after the beating was almost over there where three guys sitting in the first row ( I was in the second). just giving colt and cribbs the worst crap you could imagine during all the yelling I yelled Hey cribbs good job today our time will come forget these dude they just jumped on the bandwagon I’m a browns for life sign my jersey!!! With that he turned around and noticed that my wife and I where the only two browns fans in sight called for the security guard to get my jeresy. I was like a little kid. Completely forgot about the thrashing we just took when the guard brought me back the jeresy it was rolled up he said cribbs put his gloves in there. So here I am after watching my team lose and hearing about it for three hours smiling from ear to ear! Man I got cribbs jeresy and game gloves after that all the texans fans around me wanted to see them. Not gonna happen bro.
by Txbrownsfan on Nov 8, 2011 4:33 PM EST via mobile reply actions 9 recs
This needs more recs.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 11, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
So, if we had a hat for a hat on most occasions, what kind of hat did we have?
or maybe something like this?
Or maybe something a little more elegant?
Whatever kind of hat we had on whatever hats the other team were wearing, they were clearly not the right hats.
More like this one?
Take a hike, Hillis.
by Brownie's Year on Nov 8, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, I do believe this is it.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Nov 8, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
I hid a mostly harmless comment because there was potential for a political argument. I know nothing had happened yet but I’m going to cut it off before we get there.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
WHY WAS CAPTAIN PANCAKE DELETED???!!!!
Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.
who was captain pancake?
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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If a comment gets deleted, all replies and replies to replies get deleted.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
i know but even though the guy was a tremendous doucher, the OP should have been retained. it was funny.
Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Nov 9, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
if this gets into the probably-not-gonna-happen GWE i am gonna be PISSED
Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.
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