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Around SBN: VIDEO: Veterans Share Favorite Sports Memories

Colt McCoy and the Browns' West Coast Offense Click in 27-17 Victory Over Packers

We are just one game in to the preseason, but the results for Colt McCoy and the West Coast Offense were positive. We'll see if things can go this smooth the rest of the preseason. For now, it might be time to start paying more attention to the 4-3 defense and making sure our front four get some positive work in. My complete game review of the team's 27-17 win over the Packers is after the jump.

GREEN BAY PACKERS (0-1) GAME #1 CLEVELAND BROWNS (1-0)
VS.
17 27

Star-divide

PRESEASON GAME 1 - GREEN BAY PACKERS VS. CLEVELAND BROWNS (COMPLETE GAME REVIEW)

  1. Awarding the Game Ball: I don't think you can give it to anyone else besides quarterback Colt McCoy. McCoy was marvelous in his first live action in the West Coast Offense, a system that seems tailor-made for him. I did not expect him to come out with such confidence and precision on his passes. He finished the game 9-of-10 for 135 yards and 1 touchdown.
     
  2. Goat of the Game: We're going to give it to defensive lineman Derrick Robinson. After the veteran lineman was called for encroachment once, my brother joked to me, "how many more times would he have to do that to get cut?" Sure enough, a couple of snaps later, Robinson was called for encroachment again. Robinson's job seems safe given our lack of depth at defensive tackle, but who knows - maybe guys like Ko Quaye and Travis Ivey end up drawing more favorable reviews from the coaching staff.
     
  3. Calling the Right Plays: The Browns' playcalling was so much different than it had been the past couple of seasons, even if it was just one preseason game. I like the aggressiveness the offense brings with the pass, but I also like how we can set up a run-pass option based on what McCoy sees, something rufio talked about last week. Routes were run beyond the first-down marker on third downs, with the exception of one play.
     
  4. Watson Sends a Reminder: With so much talk about the other three tight ends on the roster in camp, tight end Ben Watson sent a reminder to fans that he's still going to be a big part of the offense. Watson had two nice catches on the Browns' second touchdown drive. The second pass required him to make a great play on the ball, even though he was open. He probably gave a little too much effort for a preseason game when he tried to do the "Hillis jump" over defenders, but it was still pretty cool to see.
     
  5. A Little Different for Moore: It wasn't the most buzz-worthy day for tight end Evan Moore as it had been in training camp. I don't necessarily mind the throw to a receiver at the line of scrimmage on a third down, but a play like that is probably better suited for someone who is capable of making a quick move after making the reception. Moore's strengths are using his body to shield defenders, so he should always be put in a position where he isn't being counted on to juke out a defender.
     
  6. Wallace's Overthrows: During training camp, I've heard members of the media say that Seneca Wallace has a better grasp of the West Coast Offense than McCoy does. Every time I've been to camp this year, all I have seen is Wallace overthrow his receivers, and it was no different in his effort against the Packers. I'm not trying to trash the guy - I like him being our backup quarterback and the fact that he brings some mobility. However, he needs to get a little better with some of his throws - the interception thrown in the direction of Jordan Norwood was the one in particular that he should've been able to connect on.
     
  7. Shying Away from Haden: I think Sheldon Brown got too much of a bad reputation for the game he played against Green Bay. His coverage was fairly tight most of the time, he made a good open-field tackle at one point, and the touchdown pass by Aaron Rodgers was just a great throw, similar to the one that McCoy had made to Joshua Cribbs. Teams will probably throw away from Joe Haden, but don't expect Brown to be as bad as Eric Wright was a year ago.
     
  8. Weak at the Safety Position: I thought our safeties (beyond T.J. Ward) did not look very good against the Packers. Green Bay's first drive would've continued had Rodgers made a throw that he usually makes due to soft coverage by Mike Adams. Forget about Ray Ventrone - any time he was in the game, there might have been a 15-yard cushion and a lot of yards gained after the catch before Ventrone's pursuit finally caught up to him. It was like watching Andra Davis get credited for tackles, but in the wrong situations. We need Usama Young and Eric Hagg back to shore things up.
     
  9. Welcome Back, DQ: I loved seeing linebacker D'Qwell Jackson back in action. It has been an eternity since I've seen him play, but I liked what I saw. He'll need to make more plays as the middle linebacker in the 4-3 defense, but he looked up to the task.
     
  10. Rubin Whiffs: I watched our defensive tackles for the first series of the game, and I think this is a group that will really need to use the preseason to get comfortable. Last year, we saw Ahtyba Rubin have a very nice preseason while chasing down running backs from behind. There was one play in particular where the Packers ran a run play and Rubin was racing over to make the stop for about a two-yard gain. For some reason, he hesitated a bit, and then dove at the running back to whiff, rather than continuing full force to make the tackle.
     
  11. Norwood Gains My Approval: It only took a couple of plays for me to be sold on wide receiver Jordan Norwood. He started it off by showing some nice elusiveness on punt returns. When he was in at receiver, he looked like the most capable guy on our roster of getting yards after the catch - someone who can make you miss once they get the ball in their hands. The great thing about our offense is that he can be the "fifth receiver," but we can still insert him into the offense for certain plays as the slot receiver.
     
  12. A Couple of Mental Name Corrections: In my mind, for all of camp, I have been pronouncing two last names incorrectly, apparently. For Owen Marecic, I had been thinking "Mare-cic," when it is actually "Ma-re-cic." For Buster Skrine, I had been thinking more like "shine" (but with a kr), when it is actually more like "screen." Good to know.
     
  13. Speaking of Skrine: Good effort by the youngster, who showed flashes of why I was impressed by Coye Francies a couple of years ago in the preseason. This is another kid who seems to have a lot of confidence right now. That might lead to some pass interference calls since he is a "rookie" (i.e. you might see Joe Haden or Sheldon Brown get away with some of those things).
     
  14. B-Jax Shows Off His Skill Set: I was happy to see Brandon Jackson get a good amount of work against his former team. I'm not saying the guy looked like a machine or anything like that, but all we need is some serviceable - someone who can come in when Peyton Hillis leaves the game and not disrupt the flow of the offense. Jackson caught the ball well and showed good perimeter running. We all know he can block well too.
     
  15. Offensive Line Impresses: The running game might need a little bit of work when it comes to blocking, but in terms of pass protecting McCoy, I thought the offensive line was top-notch. The right side of the line needs to be a strength for this offense to work, and I liked the early results I saw from Shawn Lauvao and Tony Pashos. Speaking of Pashos, man, is that guy huge or what? Holy crap.
     
  16. Marecic the Blocker: Both Shurmur and McCoy have said that they first throw (actually a lateral) to fullback Owen Marecic was a mistake, and that McCoy should've just run the ball. Don't pigeon hole Marecic for that play. I watched his blocking on at least two running plays, and he did his job. On one play, he ran through the hole and stoned a linebacker. It looked like Peyton Hillis had room to run, but he somehow got tripped up near the line. On the touchdown run to Hillis, Marecic's block played a factor in getting him in.
     
  17. The Kickoff Factor: After seeing the kickoffs in the Browns game, I'm somewhat optimistic. I'm happy that both teams decided to take most of their kicks out of the end zone. For the most part, everyone made it back to the 20 at least. I think with some superior blocking schemes, the kickoff returns can still play a factor in a game, unless you face a kicker who can boot it out of the back of the end zone.
     
  18. Titus Brown Leading the Charge: We needed one of our reserve linebackers to step up, and I thought that is what Titus Brown did. I'm not even talking about the fumble recovery he returned for a touchdown. That is a nice highlight, but it's one of those things that anyone in that position could've made. Brown looked like a force on the second-team defense though, and I think his roster spot is well secured. He has played on special teams in the past, so he could easily be a special teams captain.
     
  19. Who Said He Couldn't? Who said that punter Richmond McGee would be a weakness on special teams? He averaged 49 yards a punt, with a 40.3 yard net average. One of his punts were downed inside the 20. He also did a fine job holding two 40+ yard kicks for backup kicker Jeff Wolfert. So far, he hasn't done anything to lose the job.
     
  20. Special Teams Tackles: There wasn't one particular player who stood out. Eight players had one tackle each. Those players were A. Donald, Marcus Benard, Dimitri Patterson, T.J. Ward, Coye Francies, Tyler Clutts, Owen Marecic, and Eric Gordon. Interesting to see that Ward was still playing some special teams.
     
  21. The Sacks: The Browns recorded five sacks during the game, with one each going to Brian Sanford, Auston English, Marcus Benard, Jayme Mitchell, and Brian Smith. I thought Mitchell showed some nice quickness when he was in the game.
     
  22. No Free Play: Why did the Browns call a timeout on the first play of the game? I didn't see the 12th man, but several sources say it was because Cleveland had too many players on the field. Better to call the timeout than to give up a free play.
     
  23. Brownies: Wide receiver Demetrius Williams had some nice catches, but I think we already have too many receivers...cornerback James Dockery made a nice play and continues to stand out amongst the unknowns...Jarrett Brown was picked off early, but was put in bad field position twice...I'm surprised we didn't see more reps for tight end Jordan Cameron...running back Armond Smith and receiver L.J. Castile are two practice squad picks for me...the Browns were 8/13 on third down...Bernie Kosar was great as always, and his co-announcer did a nice job of calling the action too.

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Sounds like Hagg had surgery and the Browns made a waiver claim on a Seahawks S.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 12:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Brett Johnson. This report mentions he ran a 4.30 40 but also says “…Unfortunately, he’s not much of a football player”…

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 15, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well at least you can teach someone to play football but you can’t teach them to run a 4.3 40.

Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen

by realmccoy on Aug 15, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s a pretty great scouting report slam.

by Chemo on Aug 16, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Watch Live Detroit Lions vs. Cleveland Browns on 24/7 world wide network coverage.

Watch today Detroit Lions vs. Cleveland Browns online live streaming on available latest online live streaming HD TV link which will be held in Cleveland Browns Stadium at 07:30 PM (ET).

http://nfllive2011.blogspot.com/2011/08/watch-live-detroit-lions-vs-cleveland.html

http://nfllive2011.blogspot.com/2011/08/watch-live-detroit-lions-vs-cleveland.html

by BookOne25 on Aug 19, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why do I feel that if I click the link I’ll get electro-ghonnerhea.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 19, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was really glad to see McGee hanging those nice 40+ yarders. If he keeps it up it will be very good news for the Browns (given the circumstances with Hodges obviously).

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 15, 2011 12:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Agree in Titus Brown, someone needed to step up and do something, anything.

by SBP on Aug 15, 2011 12:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Also note, Browns atop the AFC North in Preseason games, everyone else lost. We may not stay there, but it is good to be there at least once.

by SBP on Aug 15, 2011 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

too bad preseason means absolutely nothing.

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 15, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree bear. In this case, with all the cancelled OTAs, the changes in schemes, I was very excited and impressed with the win. It really indicates that the Browns have been busting their collective arses to get into this offense. I was blown away by the offensive execution after only 2 weeks of practice. I agree that we are still way short on talent – but good to see a rookie coach make such progress. Hat tip to Colt as well – it is possible that the “Camp Colts” were a little more effective than originally thought.

Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen

by realmccoy on Aug 15, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I tend to take preseason with a grain of salt, but it’s hard not to be optimistic about Colt’s potential to be the guy. Even the cautious pessimists might be converting to cautious optimism.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Colt is the man – we will need sunglasses to evaluate the future of the franchise. Having 2 first rounders next year, not having to pick up a QB would really help. Who knows, maybe even capitalize on a minor trade down for a QB. Still feel we will be drafting high, as the depth on the team is really, really scary. Especially on DL, LB, S.

Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen

by realmccoy on Aug 15, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very thin on defense, but I do like the potential of the starters. Meaning, if we can stay injury free, the defense could be a positive.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please add this to the official DBN glossary if it’s not already they’re.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra

by JustPlainBrowns on Aug 15, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed.

"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert

by Simmsinns on Aug 15, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

i lol every time i see it

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 16, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

but it’s hard not to be optimistic about Colt’s potential to be the guy

Jake Delhomme’s preseason last year;

6-7 for 66 yards
12-16 126 1 TD
20-25 152 1 TD

Combined 80% completion, 344 yards, 2 TD’s no Int.

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 15, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, Delhomme was not making the kind of throws Colt has (back shoulder TD to Cribbs) but we do need to stay realistic: it’s the preseason and it isn’t the same game during the regular season. Things will get a lot tougher.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Definitely. But I’m still more optimistic than I had been. I had expected that with new schemes and only 2 weeks to learn them we were going to be looking at a lot of confusion and missteps. True we didn’t see the full O or D schemes, but it was still better executed than I was expecting.

"... you slay the chicken and you crack the egg ..." - Moon

by JustBob on Aug 15, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Delhomme was not making the kind of throws Colt has

Correct me if I’m wrong, but Delhomme was also a twelve year veteran going into preseason last year. The comparison with Delhomme just seems pointless to me.

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 15, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

They both looked very, very good in the preseason. Delhomme looked very, very bad in the regular season. It’s a precedent for a QB looking much worse after a good preseason.

Colt and JD are in two different situations, and there is a lot that is different. But that still doesn’t mean Colt is a guarantee to dominate in the regular season: he still have a lot to prove.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Colt and JD are in two different situations, and there is a lot that is different

This is all I’m saying. We’ve all agreed that the first preseason game should be taken with a grain of salt and means very little when it comes to what to expect for the regular season, but the comparison between Delhomme last year and Colt and the new offense this year is pretty much meaningless IMO.

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 15, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boom

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 16, 2011 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Colt and JD are in two different situations, and there is a lot that is different.

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 16, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. My point still stands.

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 16, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Packers had just returned from visiting with the White House the day before.
I believe they were playing cautious and conservative on defense (not to mention the missing 1st string corners) – just a warm up for them. They were not playing to win. Not to knock what McCoy and company accomplished because there’s no disputing how sharped they looked, but just keeping expectations in check.

(as I stated below in this thread below – earlier)

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 16, 2011 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure. I guess we’re agreed that at this point, we really know nothing. Hopefully Colt continues to play well into the regular season.

by Chemo on Aug 16, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

is JD John Denver?

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 16, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aside from being good at leaving on a jet plane, JD did not have the talent of a John Denver.

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 16, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

shocking.

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 15, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Your stats don’t dismiss his statement. His performance give us reason to be optimistic. No one said it was a guarantee of similar performances in the regular season, but they are an indicator that there may not be any need to go your route and throw hope out the window.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 15, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

His performance give us reason to be optimistic.

and the fact that there is precedence that having a good performance in meaningless games is meaningless. So one would think that in fact does not give reason to be optimistic.

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 15, 2011 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

So one would think that in fact does not give reason to be optimistic.

Come off of it. I know you like being the opposite side guy, and to be honest, I appreciate it.

But if you can’t see the reason why Browns fans are optimistic after Saturday night, then you got blinders on. Colt could crash and burn like Delhomme, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be pumped.

Quit being such a downer about everything. Someone needs to give you a hug.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 15, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets put it this way. Lets say when Colt plays Detroit on saturday and he actually goes up against a starting secondary, he absolutely blows it and looks terrible

Will you be justifying the performance by saying “it’s only teh preseason!” or will you be as pessimistic on his bad performance as you’re optimistic on his good performance?

I’m willing to put money on the former.

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 15, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he sucks against Detroit’s horrible secondary, I will be worried.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he’s getting ripped in half by Suh I will be worried.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 16, 2011 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Big XII Championship Game 2009

I am sure he is still having nightmares about what Suh did to him that game. Let’s hope the Brown’s line does a better job than the Longhorns did.

by sahyouni on Aug 16, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m willing to put money on the former.

Your right, I am the consummate homer.

Quit being argumentative just to stir the pot.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 15, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Evidently you were selective with my quote.

I tend to take preseason with a grain of salt

Which is why I am not going crazy over this game.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

the comparison to Delhomme(!) is a fallacious argument to support your estimation that McCoy will fail. While it is a method to rebut the argument that McCoy will have guaranteed success, it does nothing to affirm your position.

Bullseye. No one is predicting McCoy or the Browns are going to be Super Bowl champions because of the outcome of one single preseason game. Hell, we all know when we face Detroit’s d-line and Philly’s secondary our offense could very well end up looking like a high school football team. We might do well, we might fail miserably. Everyone has agreed on that. But the comparison with Delhomme is absolutely nothing more than an exercise in pure unadulterated pessimism.

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 16, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, too many people did go gaga over Delhomme last year. When I said he would be terrible in the season prediction thread, I was eviscerated by people saying, “Have you even WATCHED the preseason?!”

by Chemo on Aug 16, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

?

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 16, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is actually a picture of SpecialBrownie discussing Jake Delhomme last year.

by Chemo on Aug 16, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Born. This. Way.

Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.

by SpecialBrownie on Aug 16, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

remember: Jake Delhomme had a QB rating over 100 in all of the preseason games last year. What we see now doesn’t mean crap and should be taken with a grain of salt. The work they are getting in is important but the results are totally irrelevant.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 16, 2011 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

a healthy jake delhomme versus the injured jake delhomme were different. as will healthy Colt McCoy be different than am injured colt mccoy. If mcCoy an stay healthy and injury free we will be ahead of last year.

by SBP on Aug 16, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

thats a good point but even a healthy jake delhomme struggled. I am a bit more optimistic about colt, but I take all preseason performances with a grain of salt.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 16, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

What’s nice about taking these games with a grain of salt and that it makes us thirsty… which makes us want to have more beer.

Ergo, we all support taking these games with a grain of salt.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin

by Spidey on Aug 16, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

i drink beer regardless of sodium intake.

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 16, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

This sounds highly logical

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra

by JustPlainBrowns on Aug 16, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m probably lining up for an evisceration, but what the hell.

even a healthy jake delhomme struggled

The only time I remembered Delhomme being healthy last year was in the first half of the first game, and up to the play where he was injured he was playing pretty well. He played again later in the season, and I believe was injured yet again, but I’m not convinced he ever played a snap healthy after that first game. It takes a lot longer to heal as you get older – trust me.

Maybe he does suck and he definitely struggled, but the dude was banged up.

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill

by JustBob on Aug 16, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

You might, but you’re correct.

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 16, 2011 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a pretty fair point.

by HenryDawg on Aug 17, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s two of us now!

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 17, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve also been mispronouncing Marecic and Skrine, and I too was surprised at how big Pashos is.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 15, 2011 1:02 PM EDT reply actions  

I’ve had them both right, but I think it’s because I watched the entire NFL draft and remember the pronunciations when the analysts were talking about them.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Me too, but are we sure that the announcers weren’t the ones saying them wrong?

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 15, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is also a probability, but a low one.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 15, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

They have Skrine right. I dunno about Marecic. I didn’t get to watch the first half.

by C.b.I on Aug 15, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was going with Ma-re-chic. It looked Italian to me.

"... you slay the chicken and you crack the egg ..." - Moon

by JustBob on Aug 15, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably some sort of Eastern European ending with -cic, maybe Serbian.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s pronounced “Ma-re-chich,” or at least it is if he’s following the original pronunciation. A lot of people moving over from that area of Europe ended up changing the pronunciation after generations of other people getting it wrong. My family, in an effort to get people to say it right, put an “h” on the end of our name, which has a similar ending. It didn’t help.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 16, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thnk that would be the right pronunciation, just not how I have heard it.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 16, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s like how people would pronounce my Papa’s last name Hi-no-zay, (Hinajosa) it’s actually pronounced ee-na-hoe-sa. His first name was Candelario, so people just called him Jose or Joe.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 16, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m just reminded of how every announcer said Varejao name differently for the first year or so he was in the league. Vair-a-john was my favorite of those.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 15, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

*Varejao’s

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 15, 2011 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thumbs up – McCoy, Cribbs, Skrine, Right Side of OL, Brandon Jackson, Titus, Jordan Norwood

Thumbs down – Owen FB – his blocking nowhere near LV, Safety play (this really sux), and Seneca Wallace.

Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen

by realmccoy on Aug 15, 2011 1:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Thumbs down – Owen FB – his blocking nowhere near LV

I doubt you are the master of FB evaluations. Vickers has years over Owen. And the thing is, is that Owen’s first game blocking skill is probably light year’s ahead of Vickers’ first game blocking skill. And honestly, Owen did a pretty damn good job blocking. Quit acting butthurt over us dropping Vickers by lying.

Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.

by SpecialBrownie on Aug 15, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I sincerely did not think he looked like a load. He looked confused and tentative to me – but you are right – I am certainly no expert on FB evaluations.

Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen

by realmccoy on Aug 15, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really doubt he will be as effective as Vickers from a run-blocking perspective this year or next even, it’s just not something that happens right away. Even Vickers wasn’t all that good until Mangini came in and coached him up.

The rest of his game I fully expect to outperform Vickers almost immediately though, which means Special Teams and receiving.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Owen is a rookie so the expectations are unfair and Seneca is a backup. Even if he has mediocre performances, thats what he is, a backup. He is a very nice backup and may be one of the better backup QBs in the league but he is still a backup level QB.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 16, 2011 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

With so much quality and depth at TE, is it not reasonable to think we should be looking into cashing some of it in for defensive help? It seems like a silly position for a rebuilding team to carry so much quality depth at.

It would be hard to see either one of Watson or Moore go, but if we believe that Cameron is a player, it seems like we should look into it. Its debatable whether Osi would be a fit for our locker room/organization situation, but the Giants have a lot of questions at TE, just sayin.

by TKilbane on Aug 15, 2011 1:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Speaking of Pashos, man, is that guy huge or what? Holy crap.

I didn’t remember that from last year. No wonder the guy gets injured a lot. Hope he can stay healthy for at least 10 games.

2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion

by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 15, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Listening to McCoy’s presser after the game was great. I love the fact that he is grasping this offense quickly and (for the time) seems a great fit for it. I’m really hoping with a younger team, new coaches, and McCoy panning out that this team is on the verge of a turnaround.

"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden

by Kimble_79 on Aug 15, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m trying to keep my optimism tempered at this point. The Packers had just returned from visiting with the White House the day before.
I believe they were playing cautious and conservative on defense (not to mention the missing 1st string corners) – just a warm up for them. They were not playing to win. Not to knock what McCoy and company accomplished because there’s no disputing how sharped they looked, but just keeping expectations in check. I hope Detroit comes at us with everything they’ve got Friday night (during the first quarter or two while they have their 1st string in of course). I think if they do and the Browns are as solid in that game as they were Saturday night I will start to get seriously psyched about this season.

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 15, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Suh does to Colt what he did to Delhomme last year and Dalton this year we ought to toss him into Lake Erie.

by HenryDawg on Aug 15, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe Dalton was his third time doing such as well. Dude is dirty.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 15, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish someone on our defense would do that.

We need some nastiness.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 15, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can have nastiness without being dirty. If we had someone like Suh or Finnegan I would boo them every time I saw them on the field. The AFC North has enough thugs already.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 15, 2011 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we had suh… I wouldn’t boo.

"Smokescreen."

by jaws. on Aug 15, 2011 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t want a guy who would continually get 15 yard penalties, but a guy who will destroy a QB every now and then.

You wouldn’t love it if Tuba Rubin went Turkey Jones on Big Ben?

(I would kill for Suh by the way)

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 15, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought the slamming him to the ground 2 seconds after he had gotten rid of the ball was a bit too far. Now if he is slamming the guy as the QB is getting rid of the ball, that’s what I am talking about. That’s the line between nasty and dirty in my eyes.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 16, 2011 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

well, we are not talking just any player. you brought up Big Ben and I never object to that when the Steelers/Roethlisberger are involved.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 16, 2011 4:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d make a special case for Ben. Interesting fact: neither Jones nor Bradshaw ever heard the whistle.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 16, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Never heard that before.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 16, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joe is moving to Guard for this game.

2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion

by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 15, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, joe will play center and both guards simultaneously and pancake the entire lion d-line with a glance.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I’m trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Ricky Henderson

by dawgtribe on Aug 15, 2011 5:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

I will be suprised if the commish doesnt do something to this fool (Suh). They let him get away with it once in preseason last year, and to do it again and be unapologetic about it? I would not fine him one bit, I would make him sit out 2 regular season games, & if it happens again, then half a season. Yes, I do like agressive defensive play, but it was uncalled for. He’s damn lucky he didnt do it in cleveland, our fans wouldve kicked his fat butt.

"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." - Joe Haden, Cleveland Browns.

by J. W. on Aug 15, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Half a dozen of our fans vs Suh would inevitably look like soldiers fighting the Hulk

"Smokescreen."

by jaws. on Aug 15, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I loved watching Colt McCoy play. He looked confident and his accuracy was perfect for the most part. I think it’s important for McCoy and the first team offense to go out against Detroit and equal what they did against Green Bay. They need to learn to play well consistently, which is something we haven’t seen from the Browns in the past.

by duke4711 on Aug 15, 2011 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

It was only a preseason game, and Rodgers only played for 2 series. But it’s still good to see the Browns go toe to toe with the defending champs, with a new coach and only 2 weeks of organized practices no less.

  I don’t have especially high expectations for this season, but this organization may have legs.

by ouched on Aug 15, 2011 3:59 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Pretty sure Rodgers played more than just two series.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 15, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Green Bay’s first drive would’ve continued had Rodgers made a throw that he usually makes due to soft coverage by Mike Adams.

I just saw this on the replay, and I can’t blame Adams too much because that was Greg Jennings in the slot on a crossing route vs. man coverage. That’s almost impossible to cover unless we also have a defender in a short zone giving help.

But I thought the same thing, that’s almost automatic for Rodgers.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 4:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Watched the TD play to Cribbs again…I have no idea what Colt was talking about in reference to holding the S. Maybe he was referring to Greg Little, who was in the slot, or Ben Watson, who was also working the middle of the field. I didn’t see a safety anywhere near Cribbs or him do anything that would have held a safety out of the play.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 4:15 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree. The only thing Cribbs did to a safety was pull him out of position when he saw Colt throw the ball. That’s all I saw/

Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.

by SpecialBrownie on Aug 15, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most likely colt used his eyes to look the safety in a different direction.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I’m trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Ricky Henderson

by dawgtribe on Aug 15, 2011 5:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Colt’s eyes are nothing compared to Brady Quinn’s.

2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion

by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 15, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

omfg REC

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 16, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

where did you find this? this is seriously some of the best writing i have EVER had the priviledge to read

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 16, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I saw the first one of this. Hilarious.

by emily522 on Aug 16, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just read it. Fantastic.

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 16, 2011 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

He must have been talking about Little. Though I think it might have been Quarters coverage, so Little in the slot is the safety’s responsibility if he is vertical.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 16, 2011 3:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Watching the game again on NFLN. McCoy looks even more awesome. I love him as the leader of our team.

Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.

by SpecialBrownie on Aug 15, 2011 4:15 PM EDT reply actions  

I saw it was on again too, not paying as much attention the second time around though.

"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert

by Simmsinns on Aug 15, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trying to pay more attention to our defense this time around, I see a lot of Cover-1 man and Cover-3, not really doing a lot to disguise.

Ward and particularly Adams could do a better job of disguising the safety structure to not give our defense away: Adams is moving into position well before the snap and Rodgers can tell what we are doing.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 4:20 PM EDT reply actions  

We are in trouble if Adams is starting.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not seriously addressing the safety position in free agency is a little puzzling. I guess we figured that there was no one worth paying and just took a flier on Usama Young — but I think Elam would have been worth keeping as well. Elam was serviceable, and if Young doesn’t work out, we could have used the depth.

2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion

by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 15, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea, I really wanted to pick up 2 safeties including one high profile safety.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wanted a guy on Young’s level and another guy like Huff/Weddle/Whitner. Huff looked very good in his preseason game, and I wouldn’t have given Weddle that kind of money though.

I will withhold judgement until we actually see Young play.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 16, 2011 3:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Elam would have been good depth but I am not sure if he wanted to be here. He did go to where Rob Ryan was so its possible he wanted to stick with a DC he knew.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 16, 2011 4:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Watching the TD on Shelden Brown again, I still think he can do more to make a play on the ball. His head was turned around as Rodgers makes the play and I think he saw him make the throw. But he’s turning to his right to look while he would have to turn left to make the play.

He’s got to see the ball on the same side to which he is leveraging the WR: if he’s looking over the right shoulder, he’s got to have Jennings on his right.

I don’t know if he could have defended the pass, but he could have put himself in better position to try to make a play. Perfect offense still wins every time.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 4:26 PM EDT reply actions  

And weren’t they running a no-huddle offense? That’s just plain nasty.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin

by Spidey on Aug 16, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Evan Moore split out wide and running a slant on the start of the second series: no CB is going to cover that.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 4:28 PM EDT reply actions  

1st play of 3rd series: both Hillis and BJax in a split back formation, Jackson motions wide and both go in to pass routes immediately. We are definitely experimenting with putting personnel in non-traditional places.

Hoping we continue that in the regular season.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 4:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I hear Colt hung out for a few days in Mississippi with Favre picking his brain about the WCO. Set up by the Walrus. No links yet- story will break soon… wait for it…
I wonder what else Favre taught Colt? I expect great thib.

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 15, 2011 4:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Please, Colt is a Christian — very funny review of his book here.

2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion

by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 15, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here’s the link to the leak. Rest tomorrow?

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/McCoy-dazzles-for-Browns-37476968

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 15, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

First throw to Watson, Little is squeezed underneath, which means Watson was one on one on a corner route and that’s a beautiful sight for us.

Second throw to Watson was 3-verticals, a pass play Joe Gibbs used to spam. I predict we will also have a lead draw look off of that for balance. Interestingly, Evan Moore was one of the three verticals. GB was in MoFC, and Moore did enough to hold the CB to the outside so Watson could find the seam.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 4:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Both teams’ first team defenses will need to disguise better.

Rodgers and McCoy both were getting the ball out so quickly that neither pass rush had a chance. I liked some of what I saw from Mitchell and the interior linemen but Rodgers was making rhythm throws as soon as he hit his back foot.

Same with McCoy. The real challenge is going to come when we play pittsburgh and Polamalu is walking everywhere and could end up anywhere, and their LBs are showing one thing and will do something completely different. Hopefully he’ll have the offense down to the point where he can react naturally after the snap.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 4:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Possible that the D was intended to be revealing in a sense since I think defensive schemes are not shown at all during preseason.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 15, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am hoping and assuming that this is the case. We did end up getting a little more complex with the 2s and 3s.

Still sort of serves as a reality check on our offense.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just watched the sack/fumble + TD again, this was the play:

Except the OLB was first and the Mike was second on the cross. The DL slanted away from the pressure, drew the OL with it, and the OLB came unblocked. They had a TE/H back in to block off that side, and he blew his assignment (which would have been one of the backers).

To really pick this up, the OT would have needed to pass the DE off to the guard, and pick up the OLB. The H back would have been assigned the inside-most backer coming on that side. He would have had to NOT pick up the first backer (because the OT would have taken him) and adjusted to pick up the Mike. That’s a very complex pickup.

Additionally, GB might have had a “hot” read off of both of those backers coming. That means the OT did his job by taking the DE. The H-Back picks up one of those backers, and if the second one comes, the QB needs to throw hot. This is also pretty complex, I might do a post on it later.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 5:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Also note how the “T-N-E” looks like they could be the 3 down linemen in a 3-4 front, whereas the left DE could be an OLB in a 3-4 and drops into coverage.

This is my favorite 4-3: playing fast, blitzing often, and dropping quicker DEs into underneath coverage at times. OLBs with pass rushing skills who rush as DEs drop.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 15, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

obviously a nice start for mccoy. i liked the comment earlier in this thread about Jake’s preseason last year which shows it doesn’t mean much yet. but, it does mean something as a confidence booster more than an indicator of how he’ll do. are our tight ends top 3 in the league? pretty close for sure

by johnf34 on Aug 15, 2011 7:59 PM EDT reply actions  

If everybody played with three tight end sets, we’d definitely be top 3 in the league. But in a typical set, where only one TE is on the field, I think there are a lot of guys you’d take over Ben Watson.

by Chemo on Aug 16, 2011 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who? A healthy Finley, Gates, Witten…Vernon Davis…Owen Daniels?

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 16, 2011 3:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gates
Finley
Witten
Davis
Daniels
Dallas Clark
Kellen Winslow
Tony Gonzalez
Zach Miller
Dustin Keller
Brent Celek

After that, you could have a legitimate debate about Visanthe Shiancoe, Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Brandon Pettigrew, or Greg Olsen. I think Tony Moeaki and Jimmy Graham have a pretty good chance to surpass Watson this year (and the Browns would gladly Watson for either of those young guys). So that leaves Ben in the middle of the pack.

Keep in mind that Watson is 30 years old and just had his first really good season. Chris Cooley seems like he’s been around forever, but he’s actually two years younger than Watson. I like Ben a lot, but there are a lot of good tight ends in the league right now, and among them, Watson is just another guy.

by Chemo on Aug 16, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not Keller and probably not Celek. Other than that, I agree.

by C.b.I on Aug 16, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Dallas Clark is JAG.

Tamme filled his shoes really well when he went down last season. I think Clark is more Peyton than himself.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 16, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That may be. Based on available evidence, though, it’s hard to make an argument that Watson is better than him.

by Chemo on Aug 16, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s find out. I’ll grab Champ, you grab Dallas, and I’ll meet you in Berea at 6. Go!

by Chemo on Aug 16, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s been in my trunk since 4 p.m.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 16, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Watson had better stats than most of those guys last year.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 16, 2011 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

watson had jake delhomme, seneca wallace and colt mccoy fresh out of college throwing him the ball. those colts and pats tight ends are good players but they have more than JD, SW and rookie CM throwing to them

by johnf34 on Aug 16, 2011 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know Watson had Tom Brady throwing to him for six years, right?

by Chemo on Aug 17, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s also an offense that doesn’t use the tight end much.

And, as I pointed out above, Watson had better stats than them last year. Watson had the fifth most receptions and yards out of all tight ends last year. He had the seventh most yards per game.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 17, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

they use them now, but historically they have not used the TE that much. Funny thing is, the reason they are using Hern and Gronk now because they are “adjusting to the personnel” but they drafted two 1st round TEs between 2002 and 2004 with Watson being one of them but still barely used the TE position.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 17, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 17, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the other hand, Watson is now on a team that had to use the tight end constantly because it had a rookie quarterback and few other options. If a guy does nothing for years and then puts up a career season at age 30, my suspicion is that the last year was the fluke.

Watson basically did the same thing Brandon Lloyd did last year. You can make the argument that Brandon Lloyd is the best receiver in the league, but nobody is really going to believe it.

by Chemo on Aug 17, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not Keller, not Celek, not Miller, not Clark because Peyton Manning made Jacob Tamme look like a hall of famer, not Gonzolez at this stage of his career, not Winslow at this stage of his career.

Watson is much, much better than you give him credit for.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 17, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kellen Winslow is three years younger than Watson and outperformed him even in Watson’s career year. And believe it or not, since their rookie seasons (a wash for both players), Watson has missed more games with injuries than Winslow has.

Celek was ignored last season because Vick was too busy throwing to everybody else, but Celek was better than Watson in their career years (Celek 2009, Watson 2010), and Celek was better than Watson in their bad years (Celek 2010, Watson every other year of his career). And Celek is four years younger.

You can say that Clark was made by Manning, but there’s no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Watson is a better tight end than Dallas is. Unless you can think of a way to make them switch places, I’m going to have to go with the guy with all of the pro bowls.

Gonzalez is fading, but Gonzo in his worst season was just as good as Ben Watson in his career year. They’re both on the wrong side of 30, so it’s doubtful that either of them are going to improve from here.

Keller has been in the league for three seasons, and his stats have been better than or equal to Watson’s every year. He’s four years younger than Ben.

I loved what Watson gave us last year, but he was the only target in an offense that never even threw to its wide receivers. He’s had one exceptional year and he’s getting old. We’d be better off with any of the other tight ends I mentioned (except Gonzo because of his age, but the Falcons would never consider that trade anyway).

by Chemo on Aug 17, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kellen Winslow’s knees are 45 years older than Watson. I know he’s always on the field, but if we are talking about age and upcoming decline, I’ll bet on Watson every time.

Celek might have been ignored, but I don’t care about the stats. He just isn’t as good as Watson. He’s not even close to the blocker Watson is and he has the dropsies.

Clark is absolutely made by Manning. I can say that and I have a pretty decent knowledge of what is going on on a football field. Are you seriously saying that Jacob Tamme could go to another team and replicate last year’s numbers without Peyton?

Watson would be killing it in Atlanta’s offense, and Keller just isn’t that good.

I don’t care how old Watson is if we are talking about how good the TEs in the league are right now. If you want to bring value to a franchise into this, it’s a slightly different story. As it is, Watson is still hauling in great catches down the vertical seams, out jumping defenders to get balls, and then hurdling guys to finish plays. Age is nothing but a number; Watson is playing as well right now as he ever has.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 17, 2011 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know what’s taking place on a football field, but you’re also a Browns fan who likes Ben Watson. So your analysis might not be as crystal-clear as it usually is.

Are you seriously saying that Jacob Tamme could go to another team and replicate last year’s numbers without Peyton?

Don’t put words in my mouth, Rufio. You’re better than this.

The fact that Jacob Tamme did well does not mean that Dallas Clark is a bad football player, or that he’s not better than Ben Watson. You say Clark was made by Manning; I say Watson was made by our offense last season. The fact is, Clark was more highly-regarded than Watson in school, was drafted higher than Watson and has performed better than Watson every single season of their careers. Some Browns fan saying that Watson is better, even when it’s someone as smart as you, doesn’t make it true. You’re going to have to make a real argument.

Celek might have been ignored, but I don’t care about the stats. He just isn’t as good as Watson. He’s not even close to the blocker Watson is and he has the dropsies.

Until last season, Watson was known for dropping the ball. Again, you’re going to have to do better than “He just isn’t as good.”

Watson’s age is relevant when evaluating his past seasons and his potential to perform this season. If he was 25, I could buy a breakout year, but at age 30 the only conclusion I can see is that he had one fluke season in an offense tailor-made for the tight end. His age also suggests that he isn’t going to be getting any better this season.

Ben Watson played for one of the best coaching staffs and one of the best quarterbacks in the league for six years. And for those six years, he did nothing. As soon as he was replaced — and the Patriots didn’t even offer him a contract when he became a free agent — the Pats hit their tight ends for 1100 yards and 16 touchdowns. Are you legitimately going to argue that it took Brian Daboll to recognize his talent when Bill Belichick and Tom Brady couldn’t?

by Chemo on Aug 19, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok, you want to argue K2s pure numbers? sure, they are about even but you also have to consider that the Bucs passed more. Adjust for that and you give Watson almost an extra 100 yards if the browns pass that much.

Also K2 can’t block, you have to take that into consideration for the position.

Celek was ignored last season because Vick was too busy throwing to everybody else

there is much more too it than that. Celek had a very pedestrian catch rate (and I know how some hate it) and its not like he was constantly a deep threat. and to throw out another FO stat, he was 35th in DVOA, that takes into account playing time.

There is a definite case to be made that Watson was always good but underutilized so its a bit unfair to paint him as this 1 year wonder.

Lets use DVOA again and start with 2005. He ranks 11th, 27th, 7th, 40th, and 1st. The outliers are explainable. One was a year where he just sucked and one was when they lost their starting RT and had to start a rookie so he likely was in more for blocking

K2s DVOA rankings starting in ’06: 12th, 24th, 32nd, 17th. He was never in the top 10 on a per-play basis. Probably partially because he was always over-utilized and often did not have the most amazing hands.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 18, 2011 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

ok, you want to argue K2s pure numbers? sure, they are about even but you also have to consider that the Bucs passed more. Adjust for that and you give Watson almost an extra 100 yards if the browns pass that much.

The Browns threw to Watson 102 times and the Bucs threw to Winslow 98 times. If anything, we have to adjust Winslow’s numbers upwards.

Lets use DVOA again and start with 2005. He ranks 11th, 27th, 7th, 40th, and 1st. The outliers are explainable. One was a year where he just sucked and one was when they lost their starting RT and had to start a rookie so he likely was in more for blocking

I love football outsiders and DVOA, but it’s meaningless in this situation. “One was a year where he just sucked?” Really? That’s your explanation? No, there were wild swings because Ben was only getting a few passes thrown his way and attempting to quantify a tight end’s contribution over a small sample size while separating it from his quarterback’s is just hopeless. If we’re going to go by DVOA, I can only conclude that Joel Dreesen, Anthony Fasano and Todd Heap are all much better than Watson.

by Chemo on Aug 19, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope McCoy gains the type of standing where he can vett his own receivers based on the potential he sees in them, to supercede play calling plans. that would mean to keep throwing at a guy if he has a bad day, taking the lid off of the basket so to speak.
I’m not going to go along with your fiction regarding Haden. he’s short, he’s not fast, and he’s not reknowned to be physical, which would help to compensate.

by mooncamping on Aug 16, 2011 3:30 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

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