The Sunday Five: Roster Cutdowns, and a Note on Kickoffs
by Chris Pokorny on Aug 21, 2011 11:38 PM EDT
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Print"The Sunday Five" is a loosely-titled piece where I talk about five NFL- or Browns-related topics related to this past week. In today's late-night edition, I talk about the first date for roster cutdowns, the annoying kickoff rule, and more.
With two preseason games in the books, I wondered to myself, "when are teams going to be forced to start cutting some players?" The league announced that teams will need to get their rosters down to 80 players by August 30th. In the past, the first day of cuts was set at 75, but the increased rosters this year must be the reason for the difference. August 30th is the Tuesday after the team's third preseason game against the Eagles, so this might be the last time we see some of these younger players in action. The "big" cutdown date is on September 3rd, when teams have to announce their 53-man rosters.
This morning, I read an article from Tony Grossi that asked whether Brian Robiskie could fall out of the receiver rotation after not being targeted very often this past Friday. Really? We're going to give up on Robiskie all of a sudden and push him aside when Mohamed Massaquoi comes back? I can't say that is out of the realm of possibility, but it seems kind of...unusual...to read into something after a preseason game. What I saw was Colt McCoy deliver some nice passes to open receivers more times than not. If the offense struggles while Robiskie is in the game, then maybe I'd worry.
After the first week of preseason games, I thought that maybe I could live with the kickoff rule. After the second week of preseason games, I am irritated to see the number of touchbacks increase dramatically. As it turns out, these NFL kickers can kick the ball pretty darn far. The Browns' Joshua Cribbs has vowed to take kickoffs out of the end zone every time unless he catches it just in front of the back stripe. He also said he isn't going to let anyone else (i.e. the upback) tell him to stay in the end zone or not -- it'll be his decision. That might make things slightly more entertaining as a Browns fan, but what about all of these other teams who will have returners who are coached to do otherwise? I just wish this rule could be changed before the start of the regular season.
Half-way through the preseason, let's hand out some loose grades on a position-by-position basis (first-teamers). I'd say the following positions have done well: quarterback, running back, wide receiver, tight end, offensive line, defensive line, cornerback, kicker. I'd say the following positions have been the biggest question marks: fullback, linebacker, safety, and punter. Owen Marecic's drops might stand out more than they should, but wasn't that the reason why we didn't retain Lawrence Vickers? At linebacker, D'Qwell Jackson has stood out, but we've barely seen all three starters in the lineup together. At safety, we've yet to see Usama Young in action besides training camp, and Mike Adams isn't good enough to start. At punter, in his mission to avoid shanking punts, Richmond McGee has failed.
Based on that, I see the Browns eventually bringing in a new punter and one new linebacker. They are going to have to live with what they have at the fullback position because of the draft pick they invested in Marecic (and, it's not a critical position in terms of catching the ball). They will probably stay settled at safety once everyone gets healthy, so Mike Adams can slip back into a backup role. In terms of depth issues, I could see them bringing in a different third quarterback (with Jarrett Brown going to the practice squad) and adding another defensive tackle.
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Grossi is the worst reporter ever. He just talks about his own opinion like its news…. not to mention his opinions are ridiculous.
I like Cribbs attitude about the new rules.
by crazyL80 on Aug 22, 2011 1:57 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
If he wants a veteran wideout, he’ll complain about moving down to draft Phil Taylor. And then he’ll complain about not signing someone like Randy Moss during free agency.
If he wants a big armed QB, he’ll complain about the Browns not picking up a late round development project. He’ll fill his practice reports with comments about the defense and how great Jarrett Browns’ arm looks.
He’s a guy that wants Holmgren’s job.
Gross is a major league idiot who just tries to drum up controversy by making things up. This time last year he was saying that Colt McCoy was going to get cut, which was probably the stupidest thing he had ever said (why cut a 3rd round draft pick when he is just your 3rd stringer, developmental guy and, even more, when Holmgren went out of his way to take personal responsibility for drafting him). That rumor, like most of the bs Grossi puts up, then got picked up by the national media. What’s even scarier is that Grossi is on the HOF committee so he is considered to be an “elite” NFL reporter. Ugh.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
He is largely responsible for Art Modell not being in the hall, so he’s not completely bad.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I am ok with him voting for that, then.
His day-to-day job still involves stirring up drama and trying to bait readers as opposed to reporting or knowing what he is talking about.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I don’t know about that — one guy can’t stop Art from getting in the Hall. And any other Cleveland writer would do the same as he is (most NFL cities have a press guy on the committee). Art is not in the Hall of Fame because he absolutely does not deserve it — he has only made it to the finals once I believe and it ain’t gonna happen for him, regardless of whether Grossi is on the committee or not.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Multiple people including Peter King have reported that Grossi’s passionate case against Art were so influential on the vote, that he doubts Modell ever gets in. I will try to find the link for you at some point.
Well if Peter King says it, it must be true. Probably, sort of. 50 percent…ish. But that’s a legit 50 percent…ish.
Not ragging on you, just PK.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Aug 23, 2011 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions
This is from some web site in favor of Modell’s candidacy, without sourcing but basically saying it’s a matter of public record:
HOW SIGNIFICANT IS TONY GROSSI OF THE CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER?
Six years ago, when Modell’s candidacy had its best chance – while Art still owned the team and was fresh off of the Super Bowl XXXV victory – it was shot down in a legendary way when Tony Grossi, Cleveland’s representative and outspoken hater of all things Modell on behalf of the greater Cuyahoga and Northern Ohio area, gave an impassioned speech about how what Modell did to his hometown should forever forbid his enshrinement to Canton. This much is public record.
So Grossi did some good things and you know the saying in golan’s signature . . .
By the way, reading that bullsh!t website made me want to throw up.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 23, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec for “did some good things”
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
Looks more like a REC
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 23, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
More Grossi idiocy is his comparison of Greg Little to Braylon; see here for more.
By the way, does anyone else read Cleveland Frowns? It’s a great site, and the site’s author is really good, though his Mangini-love is a little over-the-top. As I think most people on this site agree, Mangini got a bad rep and was for the most part a positive force on the organization. However, he wasn’t the second-coming of Paul Brown, or even Marty Schottenheimer. I think, in some ways, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Randy should have hired a Holmgren-type football czar after he wisely got rid of Phil & Romeo. By waiting until the end of Mangini’s first season, he doomed Mangini.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course if he had brought in Holmgren there would have been zero chance Mangini would have ever been the Browns coach.
I like Frowns, he is clever and a good read but his Mangini love is almost making him unbearable. He’s beating up McCoy and Shurmur because the press actually like Shurmur. Not his fault Mangini had a poor repore with the press.
I’m not really against Mangini but I think through two preseason games with essentially the same players on offense we are seeing an obvious upgrade. This may be due to Colt’s progression but definitely upgrades in scheme and playcalling which ultimately are the head coaches responsibility. On defense, we are younger but I don’t think I could make a case for us being better. That time may come but until then I will miss Rob Ryan
by darthVictor13 on Aug 22, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with all of this. mangini may have not been the guy to take the Browns to the mountaintop but there is no question on my mind that he was the best HC the Browns have had since coming back, though that isn’t saying a lot.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Are you trying to start a flame war because that is just obscenely wrong and controversial at the same time.
I am not the biggest mangini defender, but are you really going to tell me he is worse than:
Romeo Crennel: (mediocre coaching record and let BE run wild)
Butch Davis: (personnel decisions 10x worse than mangini/kokinis)
Chris Palmer: (5 wins in 2 years. bad no matter the situation)
and that saying he is not worse than that pile of crap is obscenely wrong?
Sorry, but none of these coaches could have taken the 2010 Browns and had them within a whiff of a win in games against the Saints and Patriots.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
This.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Butch Davis was the best coach we had since we came back. His biggest problem is that he had too much power. (I guess you could make the same argument for Mangini).
Butch Davis took a team with no QB, no RB and no decent WR to the playoffs. That is pretty good in my book.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 23, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
as a pure coach, he may have been the best coach though I think mangini doesn’t make it easy to say.
I would definitely say both would have had more success if they were just the coach
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I have noticed that kickers have not only kicked it into the end zone, but often out of the back of the end zone with the returner not even being able to catch it in bounds. If there is no chance to catch the ball and even decide to take it out then it seems silly.
I thought McGee followed up his 29 yard shank with some decent punts. Didn’t Hodges have a rough preseason after Zastudil went down?
The defensive secondary has me nervous (other than Haden and Ward) I hope they prove me wrong.
If I remember right, Hodges had about one shank per game his first season with us.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 22, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I would love to see a Longhorn make the team – but I doubt Richmond can hold on. In another 2 weeks virtually every team will be cutting a punter – so it will be difficult for Richmond.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
I would love to see a Longhorn make the team
I wish like hell there was some way we could pry Jordan Shipley away from Cincinnati.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 22, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh, why? Other than Longhorn homerism. He’s nothing more than what we already have.
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 22, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s as good as any wide receiver we have on our roster. He and Colt were downright telepathic in their timing and chemistry at UT.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 22, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
(… not to mention he and Colt are best friends)
I’m telling you those two guys are a frigging match made in heaven on the football field.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 22, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
No.
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 22, 2011 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Please don’t interrupt me when I’m on a good homerism binge. Its really annoying. Don’t rain on my parade, man.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 22, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure it is just homerism – Jordan Shipley can flat out play. These numbers would have made him the most productive WR on our team:
2010 Cincinnati 15 games 52 catches 600 yards 64.0 long 11.5 per catch 30 catches for 1st Down 3 TDs.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
I completely agree (see my comment below…)
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 23, 2011 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions
*Carson Palmer as QB, in a system he’s played in for years.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 23, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
people forget too that Cincy had almost 600 pass attemps when we had less than 500. Adjust for that and he has ~42 catches for 480 yards in our offense. Still the most productive WR, but only marginally
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
He’d probably be the best route runner on the team. That’s his biggest strength.
His downside is his size, which puts him at injury risk. Regarding shying away contact, I haven’t seen him play much in the pros other than highlights, but I remember in college he definitely did not have that problem.
Before his knee surgery back in ’05, I remember hearing that Vince Young said he was the fastest guy on the team. And that team had Jamaal Charles and Ramonce Taylor.
Vince Young was wrong. Charles has always been ludicrously fast.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I looked it up to verify. He actually said that during the ‘04 season before Charles had arrived. However, my point still stands. Shipley’s speed has been limited ever since his knee surgery. Before that surgery he was ridiculously fast.
He was nicknamed “ghost” because, like, NOBODY could cover him in practice. And this was a secondary loaded with NFL talent.
I saw Shipley short arm a pass from ginger last night that was just pathetic. He looked visibly afraid of taking contact. No thanks.
You can thank Ward for that.
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 22, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Probably right. In all seriousness though, I stand by my original statement that I believe he is as good as any WR currently on our roster. In his rookie year last year he put up 600 yards receiving averaging 11.5 YPC with 3 TDs. He has great hands and is an excellent route runner. He might be a little cautious right now after that hit from Ward last year but he’ll get over it. The guy is tough as nails.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 23, 2011 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions
On a side note, if he doesn’t suffer the same injury bug during college, Jordan’s brother Jaxson will be an absolute stud. Apparently he has the highest vertical on the team.
That’s one family that was just blessed with incredible genes.
Note to Chris: I tried to access DBN this morning but kept getting bumped to Burnt Orange Nation, not sure what’s going on…
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Aug 23, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Next time you get bumped maybe you could write up a quick report for us Longhorns homers while you’re over there. Maybe some information on how practices are going down there with Mack and the new coaching staff?
One other thing if it isn’t too much trouble… could you see if you can find out if Manuel’s on 6th street still serves their Flautas plate with shrimp?
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 23, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Manuels = overpriced imposter Mexican food
Polvos and Maria’s Taco Xpress both leave it in the dust.
You probably just haven’t tried their Flautas. I love Manuel’s – great Margeritas too. I’ve never tried Polvos.
Actually Curra’s might be my favorite (Mexican). Every eat at Z Tejas? Not the best true Mexican but I love their food overall.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 24, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure we could both enlighten each other. I’ve been to hundreds of great Austin area restaurants over the years. The restaurant scene is a bounty of riches down there and I miss the hell out of it. Lived in San Antonio for a few years long ago before I moved up the I35 corridor – talk about some great Mexican spots. Some really great Italian restaurants down there as well. BBQ, Mexican, Cajun, Italian, seafood – oh man I could hop on a plane right now. Looking forward to making my annual Austin pilgrimage this Fall.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 24, 2011 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t know yet if I’ll be down there on a game weekend. I’m headed out of the country in mid September and hope to firm up my plans after I get back at the end of the month or beginning of October. You live in Austin I take it? Do you go to most of the games?
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 24, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, definitely an Austinite. I don’t go to all the games. To be honest I prefer television. Too many fans at the stadium :\
Same here pretty much – of course living in NC now obviously have no choice.
I absolutely love Austin. I grew up in Illinois, but consider Austin my 2nd home.
My wife is a native Texan – grew up in Houston but moved to Austin in her late teens. We occasionally talk about moving back down there. We both miss Austin.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 25, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
So will Colt’s brother then be a lock for the QB job?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Get this… and I’m not making this up…
While his leadership, understanding of scheme, accuracy, decision making and quick release are said to be the best on the team, he’s said to have below average arm strength, even for a college QB.
He throws lots of wounded ducks that the safeties scoop up.
Most of us really celebrated that hit, myself included, some of us even adamantly defended it. This might be sacrilegious to admit around here, but it’s interesting that we all but lynched James Harrison for the similar hit on MoMa.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
Except that Harrison launched himself helmet first and Ward was barely moving and used his shoulder on the Shipley hit. The only thing that was similar is that both receivers got laid out.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 23, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Ward’s hit and Harrison’s hit.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 23, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Thought Harrison was right about the Massaquoi hit though and I thought both hits were similar. In both instances the receiver ducker his head out of reaction to avoid getting hit and it was actually the wrong choice because it left their head exposed. Don’t see why this is the fault of the defensive player.
Double standards of homerism. I’ll admit I’m as guilty as anyone, I want to see our defenders rock our division rivals on the other side of the coin, I don’t want to see our receivers to get hurt.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
It’s not really a double standard. Had Ward lead with his helmet I’d be calling that hit dirty too.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 23, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought there were a few differences between the hits. Ward Clearly leads with and makes first contact with his shoulder. You can see him turn his helmet to the left in an attempt to hit with the shoulder. Ward hits him so hard that his helmet then whips and hits Ward’s.
Harrison flies in there with his head down. He makes no attempt to “same leg, same shoulder” Massaquoi (which is the technique that Ward is using), and no attempt to get his helmet out of the way.
With that said, our receivers will get knocked out from clean and legitimate hits from time to time. It’s a part of this game. Harrison and Polamalu have laid plenty of legitimate, clean hits on our guys.
I am not clear on the helmet-to-helmet rules and I am not sure anyone is. But I see leading with the helmet or not as the part of the equation that the defender DOES have control over. The defender doesn’t have control over plenty of things in the equation of contact. Massaquoi ducks, Harrison can’t control that—and that’s a big part of what made that hit so devastating. But he has complete control over what he leads with, and that’s the difference in my eyes.
You want to hit the other guy as hard as you can, and you want to make him feel pain. You want him to be afraid to catch the ball, and you want him thinking about where you are. But you also want to do it the right way.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
My whole problem is that on the other end, it would not have been a hit to the helmet on the receiving player if they didn’t drop their head. I don’t blame the player because it’s natural instinct, but that’s the reason they got hurt.
they were different hits. similar in that sense, but Ward led with his shoulder but made helmet-to-helmet contact. Harrison led with his head like it was a missile, something thats always a huge no-no.
Like NCF said below, if Ward led with his head, I would have called it cheap and dirty.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I didn’t cheer for the hit. If I remember correctly, I probably said something about how it was a borderline hit.
The hits were significantly different I think, and this is not just fan bias.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Cribbs…ya its great he wants to return every kick, but lets see, last year his avg was 20.4, and if he takes is back 9 deep…we get the ball on the 11 or 12 yard line, when our opponents can start at their 20. Ok maybe he was hurt last year…2009 his avg was 27.5, take away the 3 TD’s and I dont know what the avg is.
But what this is telling me is we will be starting inside the 20 more times than not.
"There's a gleam men, there's a gleam!" Marty
But that average is also dependent on where the ball was kicked from. Notice that when the kicks were just five yards further back they didn’t go into the end zone often. Now they go to the back or out most of the time. This means kickers are kicking on more of a line drive because they don’t have to worry about out-kicking the coverage team.
What I’m trying to say is there will be a tiny bit of extra space between the coverage team and Cribbs. I’m not sure what effect, if any, this will have on his average, but it isn’t a perfect one-to-one comparison.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
The coverage teams also have like 5 yards of take off space, hence all the offsides from Detroit. Previously offside on a kick off was unheard of.
by HenryDawg on Aug 22, 2011 11:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
this is not correct. Coverage guys are free to line up as far back as they like. Detroit had a bunch of offsides because they’re stupid.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 23, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Good point. The return avg is hurt when the kicker lofts the ball to the 5 yard line, giving the coverage team more opportunity to surround Cribbs (essentially a 65-yard kickoff).
Now, a kick to the back of the endzone is 73-75 yards. That extra 10 yards adds more space for the returner. I’m not saying it will be enough to make it worthwhile to take it out of the endzone, but the returner may actually have a better chance of breaking one open.
Additionally, the kickers will not be doing as much directional shots, if they are blasting the ball – just send it straight down the middle. If Cribbs can select a running lane, the extra 8-10 yards may not be a big deal…
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Aug 22, 2011 12:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I am a fan of sacrificing 3-5 yards of field position to get Cribbs a solid chance to take one all the way. That we have Cribbs back there makes it worthwhile to me.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Nice post – really enjoy the weekly feature. I think Robo’s and MoMass positions are more tenative this year than last. But that is good news. With the WCO – I think Norwood is going to get serious reps at the slot. He is much shiftier, quicker, and a better fit than both Robo and Mo for that posiiton. Then you have Cribbs – who many have called the best WR in camp. Little shows promise. I agree it is too early to write off Robo – but he may not be a starter this year – and that would mean that we significantly upgraded the depth of the WRs this year. I have been down on our WRs all year – but I am starting to drink the Kool Aid on Cribbs, Norwood, Moore, and Little.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
A word of caution: Cribbs looked great last preseason as well.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
As a WR? (asking because I didn’t watch any of the preseason games last year…)
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 22, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. Though, to be fair, he’s made harder catches this preseason than he did all of last year. And the WCO is more suited to his abilities. And he has a competent HC/OC. I like our chances with him being a quality wide out this year.
Alcohol abuse and Cleveland sports fans: hand-in-hand since 1955.
by Clevsports on Aug 22, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
One could argue Cribbs was as good or better than Robo last year. That injury he had was brutal for a guy who needs to make sharp plants and cuts. I don’t think it is possible to understate its impact on his performance. While Josh is older – he certainly is less experienced than most of our WRs. I think he has some upside. Here are some stats from last year that factors in Cribbs injury:
Cribbs before injury – 17 catches, 235 yards, 13.8 per catch, 1 TD in 9.25 games
Cribbs after injury 6 catches, 57 yards, 9.5 per catch, 0 TD in 5.75 games
Cribbs total 23 catches 292 yards 10.8 per catch, 1TD
Robiskie total 29 catches, 310 yards, 10.7 per catch, 3 TD
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
I am the biggest Robi homer you will ever meet and even I know that this statement:
One could argue Cribbs was as good or better than Robo last year.Is not setting a high bar. I also don’t think his production looks all that different before and after injury, especially when considering othe circumstances and the extremely small sample size.
None of this is to say that Cribbs can’t or won’t be a great receiver this year. I actually think he’ll be much improved. I’m just not getting too excited yet.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I get what you are saying, but you should also isolate the games at the end where Robi was finally getting consistent targets and the stats would be at least as good as Cribbs’…plus I know it was less than 8 games.
I think Cribbs is improved, you just forgot to point out how improved Robi was too
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
you just forgot to point out how improved Robi was too
Momass was supposed to be the pick of the 2 with upside, while Robiske was considered decent, but had nearly reached full potential with OSU. Now in the WCO, the field is more spread and Robiske looks like he can be covered by most coverage linebackers. Cribbs’ potential is much greater as WR in general. And how excited would you be to hear “Robiske breaks into the open field…”? It would be followed by “…and is dragged down from behind by the DT.”
I’m just saying, dude is slow, easy to cover, and hasn’t much chance of improving. Other than that, I love him…
The snozberries taste like snozberries!
Honestly, how many of Robi’s routes have you actually seen on your TV?
I can barely see him at all on mine because of the cameraman’s choices. I don’t know how you are making these observations.
If you have that coaches tape, I want it. And I’ll pay.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Owen Marecic’s drops might stand out more than they should
The knocks on Marecic for his drops are premature and unfair. In the first game McCoy took him completely by surprise and flicked the ball a little behind him, in his very first play in his very first NFL football game. I wouldn’t have been surprised to see Hillis drop that one. He has to be given a pass on that. On Friday it was just the third play from scrimmage. This is the one drop he should have caught IMO but again, it was at the very beginning of the game when everyone was still a little on edge and not into any rhythm yet. The next one thrown his way he caught and ended up breaking a tackle for a six yard gain. So – what, he’s one for two, turning the one catch into a pretty decent play for yardage.
Did anyone watch any of the Bengals game last night?
I watched A.J. Green drop about 3 or 4 passes, but I think its a little early to be calling HIM a bust.
We’re half way through preseason and the rookies have to cope with a lockout abbreviated off-season. Marecic is still a question mark but we need to let him get his practice reps and have a chance to build a little more confidence. Personally I think he’s going to turn out to be good.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 22, 2011 8:59 AM EDT reply actions
In college, you can actually turn and look at your QB before he throws the pass. Marecic turned and the ball was almost in his hands. I think he’s still adjusting to the speed of the game.
He looked lost on picking up blocks in several places, but he’s shown some good stuff.
I agree that it is pointless to mention Vicker’s departure at this point. However, am I the only one that in addition to the drops thinks he looks clueless and lost? You can say he is a rookie, but the fact is he will be our starting FB when the games count and the NFL will not care that he is a rookie. That kid better be burning the midnight oil.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
No, he looks clueless and lost at times. He’s often barely able to make contact with the guy he’s trying to block, and he looks like he’s making his decision about who to block after the play has already developed.
You’re right, he’s like two weeks away from starting in a real game, and he’ll need to be at game speed then. That being said, Cincinnati looks like easy sauce this season.
If Dalton starts – I would be so bummed with a loss.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
Talk about another rookie that is absolutely swimming right now.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
To be fair his receivers aren’t helping him at all, but either way he’s pretty screwed. Carson really screwed that team over.
No, their owner did that. They could have traded Palmer instead of trying to call his bluff about not playing.
Even Doug Dieken admits Joe Thomas is the real #73
by Doc's Kid on Aug 22, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He signed the contract, he should have played it out. Yes the owner is an idiot, but he didn’t want to get muscled. I don’t blame him for that.
I don’t fault any player for not living up to a contract that the owners themselves don’t have to live up to.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 22, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
He signed the contract, he should have played it out. Yes the owner is an idiot, but he didn’t want to get muscled. I don’t blame him for that.
Carson Palmer is an idiot. And yes the Bengals have every right to do what they are doing. But to paraphrase a wiser man than I, just because you have the right to do something stupid doesn’t mean you should do it.
This is business and this is a big boy’s game. You’ve got a guy who clearly does not want to work for you. I know if I run a business and someone does not want to work with me, and feels so strongly that he will refuse to work at all, then I don’t want him working for me either. You can force him to honor his contract, which will force him to retire. Or you can salvage some value out of the situation. A rational grown-up tries to salvage some value. Bad mouth Carson on his way out, after you get your draft pick for him in a trade, but doing what they are doing is stupid.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
The owners don’t have to honor any contracts, I don’t think the players should have to.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Bengals are the worst franchise in sports. Palmer is lucky to have the $$$ to finally say he would rather retire than go back there- good for him!
On the other hand, ownership can’t give in to that kind of ploy, or any decent player they land would do it to get out. Ochocinco tried it and the arguments each way were exactly the same- but eventually Chad gave in.
Any player thinking the same now or in the future with the Bengals know how it will end.
The snozberries taste like snozberries!
any decent player they land would do it to get out.
Decent players wouldn’t want to flee Cincy if Brown didn’t wreck that franchise. How many guys are out there who just want to play football, get paid like they deserve, and do everything within reason to win games?
The problem is Brown cares more about money than winning.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Brown cares more about money than winning
I’d alter that slightly to say Browns cares about the following, in this order:
1. Never admitting he’s wrong and standing by any decision he makes as stubbornly as a brain damaged mule regardless of how stupid a decision it is.
2. Money.
3. The Cincinnati Bengals and creating a winning organization.
Refusing to trade Palmer was the absolute height of bone headed stupidity IMO.
Brown is a stubborn, block headed asshole, plain and simple.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 23, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A player is well within his right to retire.
by Roger Dorn on Aug 22, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 23, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
He obviously did want to, otherwise he wouldn’t have done it.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Carson didn’t screw that team over, and Dalton looks bad because he is thinking and not playing. It’s a big step from any college program to the pros, and it is taking him time to adjust.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Even if they traded him, which I agree, they should have gotten something for him, he’s still screwing them by leaving them with a rookie QB that in any other draft would be a 3rd rounder at best.
He was upfront about his intentions. It’s not like he said this the night before the draft. They had time to do something about it and didn’t.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 23, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Well I wonder what changed that would suddenly need to play somewhere else? I’m sure he doesn’t like Cinci for good reasons but then just don’t sign your second contract.
by HenryDawg on Aug 23, 2011 11:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree on the point that I am puzzled by what exactly changed here. If anything, I thought the end of last season — by retaining Marv Lewis and starting to get rid of the some of the problematic players — was a good sign.
That being said, “not signing your second contract” is not really an option for an elite QB, because you will get the franchise tag if you don’t. He was stuck with the Bengals no matter what. Now, he apparently thinks he has made enough money where he can choose to retire rather than keep playing for that disastrous franchise. He has that choice; he is not a slave (contrary to Adrian Peterson’s and others’ opinion).
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 23, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
yep, and they had every opportunity to trade him, but Brown didn’t want to.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
he’s still screwing them by leaving them with a rookie QB that in any other draft would be a 3rd rounder at best.
that implies that it is in question.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
All of that is on Brown’s shoulders, not Palmer’s. They could have made a move to trade for a QB, traded Palmer for some draft picks, and possibly have come out ahead in the game. Instead Brown decided to be stubborn.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 23, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree he was stubborn and stupid, but who would they trade for? Kolb, McNabb maybe? Not great choices even if they could pull it off. They invested millions into Palmer and he screwed them, horrible franchise or not.
by HenryDawg on Aug 23, 2011 12:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
mcnabb is not a bad option for a 1-2 year stopgap. Plus, he is familiar with the WCO
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Assuming he would go there. Much more likely he would have gone to Arizona if they didn’t get Kolb and definitely he would choose Minn. over Cinci.
which isn’t all that relevant for a hypothetical situation.
You said that mcnabb isn’t a good option. you were throwing out potential names of guys to replace him. you are just moving the goalposts now that I point out that mcnabb is a good fit.
Who knows if he would choose minny over cincy? I mean, minny is gonna be just as awful and I’d take AJ green over Percy Harvin.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I am still not getting how Palmer “screwed them”? It’s a two-way street — they screwed Palmer by being a disastrous franchise. Palmer has a right to retire, just like Cinci has a right to cut just about every player on their roster. He is not screwing them. Cinci is screwing themselves and it is a pattern for that franchise.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 23, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If they are a disastrous franchise (and they are) then he shouldn’t have signed the contract and forced them to franchise him.
Maybe they lied to him and promised him things that never happened. Seems to have happened to other players.
If he shouldn’t have signed the contract because he didn’t play it out, NFL teams should never sign a contract where they end up cutting the player. This is the same double standard you have been ignoring this entire time.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Their best choice would have been to build a good organization and keep Palmer happy, but they didn’t choose to do those things.
You can’t complain about the lack of good choices when you choose not to make the best one.
Palmer didn’t screw anyone, he played years of high-level football for that team. They paid him for it. Now he doesn’t play and they don’t pay.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
They screwed themselves by driving their franchise QB out of town.
If they needed him so badly this year, why not work with him? Bring him in, see what he wants, trade him for another QB?
He didn’t make them select AJ Green.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
The whole driving their franchise QB out of town… this is something I’m surprised I’m not seeing more Browns fans celebrate…
Owen Marecic’s drops might stand out more than they should, but wasn’t that the reason why we didn’t retain Lawrence Vickers?
Careful Chris, some might find that discussion pointless. Who cares, right?
After the first week of preseason games, I thought that maybe I could live with the kickoff rule. After the second week of preseason games, I am irritated to see the number of touchbacks increase dramatically.
Completely agree on this awful kickoff change. If player safety was the concern, why not just start drives from the 20? I heard last night that half as many kicks have been taken out to this point compared to last preseason.
I really dislike this trend. I see the death of this sport, maybe 40-70 years off, I can’t say when, but it’ll be because it was deemed to “dangerous.” And it’ll be a sad day.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
Careful Chris, some might find that discussion pointless. Who cares, right?
No need to be snarky.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
We adopted him b/c he wanted to be here! If more athletes wanted to play in Cleveland, we’d all be a lot happier with our sports teams. And if Modell wanted to be here, there’d be no reason to keep Tony Grossi at the PD.
The snozberries taste like snozberries!
At punter, in his mission to avoid shanking punts, Richmond McGee has failed.
Since McGee has failed to achieve, even in this most modest task that was his charge, since he has stolen our money, and since he has unrepentantly betrayed our trust, we have no choice but to tell these bums that they should do whatever is necessary to recover our field position from you, Richmond McGee. And with Joe Thomas as my witness, tell McGee this: Any further harm visited upon our field position shall be visited tenfold upon your head.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Very 18th century of you.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, it was more Lebowski of me.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I could care less if Robo gets cut at this point – he’s shown nothing. Not good speed, not great technique, not superior hands… nothing. At least MoMass flashes here and there.
The few times Robiskie’s made a meaningful catch I always catch myself being surprised to hear his name. Waste of a draft pick courtesy o’ Mangina.
Me too.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Aug 22, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I did as well. Too bad my bailout method failed me and I ended up reading the whole thing.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 22, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally, I think the term fits the guy very well.
My apologies to all of you who were offended or put off, I was not aware that there was a moratorium on the word here.
Regardless, I stand by my negative opinion of him and how he ran the team. His hiring was instantly inauspicious.
The real point of the post, however, was to express severe disappointment in Robiskie, as well as doubt that he will ever be a meaningful contributor. Thoughts?
I disagree on Robiskie. He’s not an elite WR but I believe he’ll have a productive season. There’s no way he’s going to be cut.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 22, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree it’s extremely unlikely. I’ve long hated Grossi’s articles, and believe little to none of the little to none of his articles I read.
Perhaps you’re right about his chemistry w/ McCoy and we’ll see a 3rd year upswing. I don’t know if it is because he’s a possesion-type guy or unfair expectations because of his draft slot, but he just never seemed to pass the eye test like MoMass did occasionally. I guess his supposed strengths of route running and good hands may have a better chance of surfacing in a WCO that requires such skills from the WRs.
Speaking of MoMass, there’s an interesting yahoo article about his resolve to improve and the workouts with elite WRs like fitzgerald that he claims helped him alot. Can’t wait to see him on the field if all of that is true…
Robiskie was our most productive receiver while McCoy was in the game last year.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
heh, I was kind of being sarcastic in my response, because it was the last word anyway (i.e. there was nothing else to read).
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Aug 22, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course.
Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.
by Chris Pokorny on Aug 23, 2011 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Calling him Mangini is second gradesque.
Why not just voice the legitimate, football-related aspects of your negative opinion about him as opposed to resorting to “haha, your name sounds like ____!” ridiculousness?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
calling someone by their last name is second gradesque?
"You are the worst villains in football, your evil plan never ceases."-Mooncamping
by discoinferno083 on Aug 23, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately, it ended at “Mangina”. By the way, for all the crap we here for “Mangina’s” picks in the 2nd round that year — go look at the second round in 2009. It was amazingly bad.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
go look at the second round in 2009. It was amazingly bad.
A few people have pointed this out. It was pretty bad.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I know it has been pointed out before, but I just looked at it and was impressed by how bad it was. I was prompted by a story of another Broncos 2nd rounder from that year getting cut. The first round was bad too, though Green Bay somehow managed to pull out two pro-bowl, key defensive players out of it. And that’s what gets you to the Super Bowl. . . .
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
That and Aaron Rodgers.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Getting Aaron Rodgers though is a product of that kind of drafting. Smart drafting in weak drafts. It’s 2006, you’ve got a very good QB who has probably 3 years left. CW says to take a guy who can make an immediate impact to try to push the team to get to the Super Bowl one last time (which they almost did in 2008 with Favre). But they probably looked at the board and saw the crap in 2006 that was available late in the first round, and thought, why not take a flyer on this Rodgers guys? He has fallen, and has some big question marks, but if he works out well, we are way ahead of ourselves. Very smart organization. Or they just are super-lucky.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And by 2006, I meant 2005. And by 2008, I meant 2007. Thanks.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There’s no denying they are a good organization. You still have to find that franchise QB in order to have the chance to become one. And it helps to already have a HoFer there to begin with, as well as being able to draft later in the first (under the old CBA, at least).
But Green Bay has definitely hit on some bigtime talents in the draft. They know what their coaches want and they get those kinds of players in the building.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Pryor to the Raiders for a third founder. No one else even put in a bid.
by athensdawg on Aug 22, 2011 2:08 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Source? That’s pretty crazy.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, nothing I’ve read mentions it, but maybe it will come out later today. No other players were taken in the supplemental draft, are you sure that isn’t what you heard?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 22, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I am sure that’s the case. There are enough teams that would take a flyer on him for a 6th or 7th.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 22, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
No one else even put in a bid.
I am not sure anyone outside of the NFL can know this. No one else put in a bid in the 1st, 2nd, and not one of the 17 teams before them in the round put one in for the 3rd. After that, every team could have put in a bid and we wouldn’t know.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I would be disappointed in the Browns’ staff if we sent a scouting team to watch the workout – watched a 6-6 man run a sub 4.4 40 and then didn’t tender at least a 7th round pick for him.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
This probably the way it went down. The guys on the radio made it sound like no one else put in a bid. Sorry to mislead anyone, but that’s what they said.
by athensdawg on Aug 22, 2011 6:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
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