The Browns Should Trade For Mario Williams
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 2:55 PM EDT
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As far as I know, Mario Williams isn't available for trade. Since when has that stopped me from speculating?
In case you haven't paid attention to what has been going on in Houston, here is a quick rundown. Last year, their defense sucked. Texans poop-can Frank Bush and hire Wade Phillips. Phillips has usually run the 3-4 defense and will run that defense in Houston.
Phillips decided that Mario Williams, the 6'6 290lb defensive end, would be moved to OLB. It's not that he doesn't possess the tools to play that position, he just never has before. Switching from DE to OLB is never a sure thing. For every DeMarcus Ware, there is a pile of Vernon Gholston's. Some players take to the position quickly, some never do. It's a crapshoot.
Williams was one of the elite defensive ends while playing the 4-3. Even though he rarely ever had any help on the defensive line he racked up 48 sacks in five seasons.
So why would the Texans give him up?
Granted, it's not an easy sell, but hear me out.
I touched on the position switch, and so far the reviews have been uneven at best. Even though the Texans dominated the 49ers, Mario Williams registered nothing on the stat sheet. Not even an assisted tackle. I'm not basing his career projection on a preseason game, but all reports have Williams struggling to make the switch.
Now Head Coach Gary Kubiak stated that he had 5 pass pressures against San Fran, but most accounts don't have it nearly that high.
Here is a fantastic breakdown on his 18 plays against San Francisco:
* Four opportunities to rush the passer as a weakside linebacker.
* Four running plays away from him.
* Five times the 49ers motioned him into a strong-side technique. In other words, they put a tight end on his side, making him have to bump the receiver at the line and potentially cover. A couple of times he tried to rush late after realizing the fullback or tight end wasn’t going to release, but to no avail.
* Five times he was a traditional 4-3 end; on third downs and in the final minute when 49ers were supposed to be in their one-minute offense.
I know, it's preseason. But it has been this way all preseason for Williams.
But you say "Bernie, you sexy beast, what team, with serious playoff hopes, is going to trade a starter at this point in time?"
What if I told you that Mario Williams isn't one of the four best LB's on his team? All reports coming from Texanland is that Williams has been outplayed by Brooks Reed. Badly. Reed, the second round pick from Arizona has been a huge addition for the Texans. Head Coach Gary Kubiak had this to say about him:
"[Reed's] probably the one player right now showing the most vast improvement from day-to-day, practice-to-practice and game-to-game."
Oh, and Reed is learning the position for the first time, after being a defensive end in college, yet isn't struggling. In fact, he is making plays. Big ones. Some players take to the switch, some don't.
In the first preseason game, Brooks had a tackle for loss and a pass defended. Against the Saints he racked up two sacks and two forced fumbles, and notched another tackle for loss against San Fran. In those games, Williams has two tackles. Combined. He is a complete non-factor.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Texans are a better defense right now with Brooks Reed playing over Mario Williams. The Texans are cramming a square peg in a round hole.
It's not just me, Texans fans think that Reed should be playing over Williams as well (WARNING TITLES!)
Before you suggest that Williams just moves back to Defensive End, remember, the Texans already have two defensive ends. First round pick JJ Watt has played well, and Antonio Smith has been impressive and is also much much cheaper. Which brings me to my next point.
Mario Williams is in the final year of his contract. If the Texans think he is going to be cool with being paid as an OLB instead of a Defensive End, I suggest they ask Terrell Suggs about that. Not going to fly, nor should it.
Williams is going to ask for a Julius Peppers type contract, and by all rights he should get it.
Put yourselves in the shoes of the Texans GM, Rick Smith. Would you give a guy, who you may end up having to move to a 3-4 Defensive End, 6 years 92 million? That is a ton of money for a guy who will spend most of the time smashing his head against Guard-Tackle double teams. There is a reason teams don't like paying big money to 3-4 defensive ends, it's not smart.
Of course that is assuming that Williams even wants to play the DE in a 3-4. Williams and his agents aren't dumb. 3-4 DE's don't get paid in this league. Why stay in Houston and get 4.5 sacks a season occupying blockers for Reed and company instead of going to Atlanta/Indy/Seattle and getting 14.5 sacks a year while making tons of green? Simple answer, he won't and the Texans should know it.
Before you totally dismiss the contract issue, remember, this is a team that has paid Jonathan Joesph, Matt Schuab, Andre Johnson and DeMeco Ryans more than 40 million and Eric Winston got 30 million. Think Andre Johnson may want to redo his deal after Larry Fitz got $50 million dollars more? Nah, I'm sure he's cool with that. I haven't even mentioned Arian Foster, who will be a free agent after next season and should be in line for a payday.
Money is going to be an issue in Houston. Would you use 90 million on a position that could be filled by a mid-level guy?
The smartest move for the Texans is simple.
You trade Mario Williams.
Get something for him now. His stock is still sky high. He is a 26 year old pass rusher in a passing league.
Wouldn't the Texans be better off moving Williams and adding pieces, and freeing up TONS of money to use on other pieces of a team that is really starting to take shape?
This is why the Browns should be pro-active. If Williams hits the market, we would have to pay through the nose (read 100 million dollars minimum) to even get Mario to consider coming here.
But if we trade for him, we acquire the right to tag him. We work out a long-term deal, and go into the future with a defensive line including Williams, Jabaal Sheard, Phil Taylor, Tuba Rubin and soon-to-be-pro-bowler Jayme Mitchell. Not only is that a good defensive line, it is one of the best in the NFL.
So what would it cost? A starting point would be a first round pick. I'm guessing that the Texans would also want a player(s), so they could soften the blow of losing Williams.
Would you be opposed from offering the Texans a first round pick (Atlanta's) Marcus Benard and Sheldon Brown? Sure we would have a gaping hole at CB, but that is something we could fix later. Plus with that pass rush and Haden, good luck finding the soft spot in .8 seconds Flacco. Benard would be able to go back to being a stand-up OLB, and the first rounder would allow the Texans to use in any fashion they please.
It's a win-win. The Browns get a pass rusher for the next 8 seasons, and the Texans add a pieces to their secondary, linebacking core and acquire a pick for a guy that doesn't fit what they do anyways.
Maybe there was a reason Jabaal Sheard stopped wearing #90 last week? Do it Heckert. Now.
So sports fans, what do we think?
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WHILE WE ARE AT IT
SIGN ANDRE GURODE TO PLAY GUARD NOW!!!
Yep, you beat me to it, was gonna mention that…
by athensdawg on Aug 29, 2011 3:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
An o-line of Thomas, Gurode, Mack, Lavao, and a healthy Pashos could be a nice lime. Amy thoughts about Leonard Davis as well?
by athensdawg on Aug 29, 2011 4:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
…nice line. Any… stupid smart phone..
by athensdawg on Aug 29, 2011 4:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t know, but apparently I’d love to meet her.
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 30, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
maybe we could just get that robot on fox to paly for us too
"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"
no, the idiot thing plays baseball when football is on and it usually repeats its movements over and over again. it’s clearly malfuntioning.
Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.
I was actually thinking about Mario Williams yesterday and how I’d want to pursue him if the Texans made him available for trade. I do think he is a bad fit there, I just think they will give him at least a year to try and figure out the 3-4. If not, he might be made available next offseason. While the Texans badly need secondary help, I doubt they’d want to trade for an older CB, you’d be more likely to get them to jump at one of our younger corners if any of them develop (would not include Haden obviously) along with that 1st round pick.
I wonder if a first, Benard, and Skrine gets it done.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 29, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
the texans improved their secondary alot this offseason.
the guy from chicago and somebody else decent.
"You are the worst villains in football, your evil plan never ceases."-Mooncamping
by discoinferno083 on Aug 31, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Except that the Eagles will probably get him.
by HenryDawg on Aug 29, 2011 3:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
Makes too much sense.
That right there is the reason it will absolutely not happen.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Aug 30, 2011 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m guessing they misunderstood your proposed trade, or maybe they were thinking about the gigantic contract he would require. The trade price tag that you have proposed is cheap compared to the impact that he would have on our team. On the trade market, I would imagine he would command more than what is likely to be a mid to late first round pick plus a few other players.
"There is a small, but important difference between peeing in the pool and peeing into the pool." - Demitri Martin
I voted for that because of the proposed trade. Trading Brown leaves us way too vulnerable at CB unless we have someone else coming in. Skrine and Dockery are clearly not ready to be starters.
Even Doug Dieken admits Joe Thomas is the real #73
I can live with a shaky secondary if we had a chance to get Mario Williams.
Sheldon Brown is no spring chicken, and probably isn’t in this teams five year plan anyways.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree. I would gladly suffer with a bad secondary this year if it gives up 5 or 6 years of Mario Williams. Our D-line would instantly be transformed from a possible weakness to a strength.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 29, 2011 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
This can’t be understated. A pass rush does much more for a good secondary than the other way around.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 29, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I am of the belief that you always go pass rush over pass coverage. That thinking really makes the deal a no brainer to me.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I am with you there.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I suppose all of you are right about the pass rush improving the coverage. It’s just been so long since I saw the Browns actually have one during the regular season. I also agree that Brown is clearly not in our 5 year plan. But as I said before, I’d be more comfortable trading away Brown with the ATL pick and Benard if we brought in another CB to start ahead of Skrine and Dockery.
Even Doug Dieken admits Joe Thomas is the real #73
We got after the passer pretty well last year. Especially considering our lack of a dominant one on one guy. Up until the last two games we were ranked pretty high against the pass and it wasn’t because of our DBs.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Actually it doesn’t sound to bad when I remember that we probably aren’t making the playoffs this year anyways. That would eave us with a solid D-line for next year and leave us in a position to get another good CB in the draft as well as a LB and WR in the first 3 rounds. However, I would not give up any more picks beyond the ATL 1st.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
Scary thing is, that if we somehow got Mario Williams, Williams would be our oldest defensive line starter at 26.
Rubin 25, Sheard 22, and Taylor 23.
We are talking about a nucleus that is young and talented.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I would make the trade, though I would like to get Williams and another 4-3 player, they get our #1 (atl pick), 4 & brown. Yes, williams is a great DE, but not on that team now. They would be smart to trade him.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." - Joe Haden, Cleveland Browns.
i prefer j.ws trade to the one originally proposed. Trade values baffle me, particularly when draft picks are involved.
why not simply offer a first? and maybe ONE other player or pick?
I was under the impresion that first round picks are extremly desirable.
when’s the last time a current player got traded for a 1st rounder? doesn’t happen a lot.
"You are the worst villains in football, your evil plan never ceases."-Mooncamping
by discoinferno083 on Aug 31, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I like the idea of getting Williams, but trading away Sheldon Brown doesn’t sit well with me given just how empty the bench already is for the secondary. Brown is by no means untouchable, but Joe Haden and TJ Ward can’t cover the whole field.
by ouched on Aug 29, 2011 4:43 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions
That’s what Mario Williams is for.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 29, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Like you say, Williams is the forth best LB on his team… Why would we pay so much for that? And, he’s 26. Doesn’t sound very enticing to me.
Hank Poteat owes me 60 bucks.
If he’s supposed to be the one of the best DEs in the league, why did the Texans change to a 4-3… something he’s not comfortable playing in? It seems as if they’re trying to cut ties w/ him because they don’t believe he can produce for much longer. Right?
Hank Poteat owes me 60 bucks.
No. They hired a new DC in Wade Phillips who has pretty much always run the 3-4. You don’t let the personnel dictate the scheme, you choose your scheme and you find your guys to fit it. Unfortunately, Williams talent is going to go wasted in their new scheme which is why B19K makes a great point when he says the Texans should get value for him while they can.
"There is a small, but important difference between peeing in the pool and peeing into the pool." - Demitri Martin
No way we make a trade for him. This build through the draft ideology that H&H are implementing is something I totally agree with. Build a solid nucleus through that process so we can build a dynasty toward multiple superbowls. F signing free agents for short-term gain, seriously. Historically it doesn’t work long-term, especially when you are talking about trading picks.
It works in certain instances. For instance, the Jets were built mostly through the draft but were heavily augmented through free agency.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 29, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I like the “draft ideology” as well, but “F signing free agents” — This guy is only 26 and is dominant. Bring him in and give a long term deal to solidfy that “nucleus” we are building. I honestly believe we are a few players and a little “gel time” short of battling for a playoff spot..(okay next year). Williams would make our young defensive line even better for years to come.
by BrownsFan@theBeach on Aug 29, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think trading for a 26 year old pro bowler would be against what H&H are trying to do.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
We have a lot of room.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
This is a very motivating concept.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice there is. -- Yogi Berra
by JustPlainBrowns on Aug 29, 2011 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Who do you think deserves a 20 mil/year increase?
Joe Thomas’ contract was only 4ish mil over what it used to be (average per year). Who on our team do you think demands that kind of money?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
you were the one saying they shouldn’t go after free agents so they can resign the current players, now you’re saying there is more than enough room to do both. Which one is it?
by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 30, 2011 3:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Was there a free agent like Mario Williams available this summer?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 30, 2011 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait, so originally we didn’t have enough money to resign our players and go after FA at the same time. Now you guys are saying that we in fact would have enough money to resign all of our players, but only to go after one of the players who will probably break DE contract records.?
Are you making this up as you go along?
by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 30, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you making this up as you go along?
That’s what we call pulling a TLP.
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 30, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No.
so originally we didn’t have enough money to resign our players and go after FA at the same timeI never said that. We could have gone after free agents, we had plenty of money. But FAs are always overpaid, and there wasn’t anyone available who was going to deserve the contract we would have given them. Mario would.
The argument was always about where it was wise to spend money. It wasn’t prudent to spend money in free agency this year outside of a few players. It is extremely prudent to spend money on Mario Williams.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 30, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
The logic makes complete sense, I’m just astonished by the hypocrisy and the flip flopping. How many free agents signed for the amount of money Williams would have gotten in FA? That’s right, none, so it would help the understanding if we stopped pretending that every FA commanded record amounts of money.
But considering the fact that three positions we could have used had great players go for 5m a season or less (clabo, Edwards, Barnett), its weird seeing the “save money for resigning our players” and “spend money wisely” go out the window considering you now wouldn’t mind seeing the FO pay 15+M for MW when we could have gotten those same players for around the same amount combined.
When it comes to Mario record amounts we have a lot of room to over spend. When it comes to paying FA’s reasonable amount we need to save.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 30, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
How many free agents signed for the amount of money Williams would have gotten in FA? That’s right, none,
not really true. Before the Charles Johnson contract (which sets a precedent), I would expect mario to get something in that realm and mario is worlds better of a player.
You are really calling nick barnett a great player now?
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I’m just astonished by the hypocrisy and the flip flopping.
I have been one of the loudest voices speaking of the overrated-ness of Ray Edwards
I’m not an Edwards fan in the LEAST
I think edwards is a little overrated
if he couldn’t do it next to Jarred Allen and the Williams wall, then there is no reason he could do it on any other team where he is the main focus.
…
three positions we could have used had great players go for 5m a season or less (clabo, Edwards, Barnett)
Could you explain these please? Do you mean he would have been a great deal at under 5mil/year? Because you yourself have stated he is certainly not a great player.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
There isn’t hypocrisy involved simply because we would be spending money: Spending money wisely is about just that, spending the money.
If there are $15M to spend on free agents, throwing 13 of those at Mario and the minimum (or none) to a LB and RT is a much better use of money than 5 each to Edwards, Clabo, and Barnett in my eyes, which is why I think a contract for Mario would be a no-brainer.
So three decent+ players are not worth as much as one All-Pro 4-3 DE in my eyes. It isn’t about “we should never spend” or “we should spend every time we can” so much as how and why we are spending and what we’d get for it. A proven all-pro player at a premium position in his prime is a great use of our money.
And furthermore, I don’t think it’s a given that we could have gotten all three of those guys for the contracts they signed. It would take more to pry them away from their old teams and put them on a team coming off of two 5-11 seasons in the Rust Belt.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
But considering the fact that three positions we could have used had great players go for 5m a season or less (clabo, Edwards, Barnett)
Those players are overpaid. This approach you are talking about is what the Redskins have been doing for years.
Paying mid-level guys more money then what they are worth. Ray Edwards contract is a complete turd. 30 million dollars for a guy who doesn’t even average 6 sacks a season.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 30, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Making Eric Weddle the highest paid safety ever ≠ making Mario Williams the highest paid DE ever.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Aug 30, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is a straw man if I have ever seen it. How does unwillingness to overplay players equate to people saying we couldn’t afford to?
by Roger Dorn on Aug 30, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This. It seems obvious their strategy is not to overpay for average players as that’s financially foolish and creates locker room animosity.
However, Mario Williams is not Ray Edwards. Most people would expect him to receive a big pay day, like Nnamdi, since they’ve earned it on the field and they are high character guys who won’t shut it down after getting paid.
no one ever said the team didn’t have enough money. this team is in one of the better cap situations in the league.
What rufio I think was getting at is not to overpay guys this year. For god sakes, a punter got 18 million, guys were getting massively overpaid.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
What I am getting at is we can overpay all the stars that play supremely important positions all we need to. If Phillip Rivers was hitting the market I’d be all for throwing a boatload of money at him. Patrick Willis? Definitely. Calvin Johnson? Yep.
Those kind of guys just don’t hit free agency though. If we got one in a trade, we should make sure he didn’t hit the market, just like we did with Joe.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
yeah, I can agree with that. If the elite guys at DE, QB, or LT, or WR hit the market, I pull the trigger no question. Even Patrick Willis who doesn’t play one of those positions.
I got what you were getting at, but I was just pointing out that teams were overpaying stupidly and there is no point in getting into a stupid bidding war
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
I’m sorry, what 26 year old who also happens to be among the best 4-3 DEs in the league was out there?
We shouldn’t go after Charles Johnson when we have to give him that kind of money. Mario Williams is worth it.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Someone like Mario Williams would be a player to spend money on.
Our front office will spend money (see Thomas, Joe) it just has to be smart. Mario would be smart.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
precisely. you trade for a dominant 26 year old pass rusher whom you can sign to a big, long-term deal pretty much everyday of the week. quite frankly — please, don’t shoot — i would think very seriously about moving haden out for this guy, and i love haden. 4-3 DE is arguably the 3rd most important position on the field (QB, LT … then the argument is probably DE/DB).
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 29, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t give up Haden. Haden and Thomas would be the two guys I would call off limits.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
as i said, i love haden. and i’m not positive i would move him for williams, but really haden’s given us 7 (7?) games of good play at the corner. he’s got star written all over him, but williams is already a star at a potentially more valuable position. i don’t think you can rule it out.
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 29, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I can understand why someone could be inclined to put Haden on the table, I just couldn’t do it.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I would definitely take the first rounder off the table if we entertained moving Haden.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Aug 30, 2011 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It would be tough to give up Haden, but I actually might consider it. I think pass rush has a bigger impact and Williams will unless Haden turns into Nnamdi or Revis and even then its close. Also, even though Williams is older, CBs deteriorate quicker so Haden probably isn’t dominant anymore at 30-31 while williams can possibly last till the mid-30s.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
For one thing, you’re talking about trading an extra 1st, not your only one. For another, Rubin, Taylor, Williams, Sheard, all young with plenty of talent – sounds like a pretty solid nucleus to me.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
i disagree with terby.
building through the draft is a good strategy, but to blindy assume you can’t supplement that with solid FA pickups is foolish.
"You are the worst villains in football, your evil plan never ceases."-Mooncamping
by discoinferno083 on Aug 31, 2011 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Howdy guys, Texans fan here living in Cleveland and rooting for the Browns 15 out of their 16 regular season games this year.
While this article mentions a post over at BattleRedBlog showing fan dissatisfaction with Mario at OLB, I just want to point out that it’s a fanpost, not one made by a BRB staff writer. And if you look through the comments on the couple of articles about Mario’s play recently, most people seem to think he’s doing alright considering he’s still in transition.
This article mentions the success of Brooks Reed, something us Texans fans are quite encouraged by, but you must remember that his success has primarily been against second and third string linemen. I look forward to seeing him in the rotation, but I really don’t think he’s been outplaying Mario.
Additionally, while Mario didn’t show up on the stat sheet, he did cause a good bit of havoc in the backfield on those 18 snaps he played last game. On one play in particular, he was only a fraction of a second behind Smith in sacking Brees.
Wade Phillips is also notorious for playing a very vanilla D for the preseason, and we haven’t seen any sort of special blitzing defensive snaps (aside from I think one safety blitz this past game) that could take pressure away from Mario.
And lastly, Mario will be playing as a 4-3 DE for nickle and dime scenarios, which should happen fairly often with the pass-heavy teams we’re playing this season, and our potential to take the lead early and force teams to stop the clock.
Add all that up and I just don’t see why it’d be worth our while to trade Mario. He’s been the absolute anchor of our D the past five years, and there’s no way the FO would give up on him without at least seeing if he can make the transition through the first half of the season.
I enjoy reading this blog, though, and I hope to make it to a Browns game or two this season.
by Calvinball on Aug 29, 2011 6:32 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
As a Texans fan, would you be opposed if the Texans did trade him?
If Williams doesn’t play at his normal level this season, something that is totally up in the air right now, do you expect Williams to return to the Texans, playing a defense that doesn’t suit him? That would be the dilemma for me, if I was in charge of the Texans. Then what do you do, let him walk for a practically nothing?
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d be opposed if they traded him before the end of this season. If he doesn’t seem able to adjust, and our D is sucking because we aren’t getting pressure on the QB, then I would probably start thinking that Wade should switch back to the 4-3 where Mario can get pressure.
If he seems unable to adjust but we are still getting as good pressure on the QB as we have been this preseason, then I wouldn’t be opposed to franchising him as a first rounder. Someone high up in the first round will bite so we’d get some good value for a player that isn’t the dominant force on the D anymore. It’d pain me to see him go because he’s been a loyal and valuable player, but it’d be the best move for both parties.
I might have my franchising rules mixed up, though. NFL’s free agency rules always manage to confuse me.
The franchise tag signs him to a 1 yr contract for the average pay of the top 5 players at his position. What you were thinking of is an RFA tender, which (I could be wrong) I think they may have done away with in the new CBA.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 30, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
No, the CBA still has RFA tenders, just like before. It is just that all players after 4 years are unrestricted free agents (not RFAs, so they cannot be tendered).
The only reason you saw a ton of RFA tenders last year is because, for one year only, that was changed to 6 years so there were a bunch of players who were set to be unrestricted free agents who were now RFAs and teams could then tender them, instead of franchise-tag them (which you only get one of per year and is, as you note, very, very expensive).
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 30, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The contract issue is quite valid.
But along the lines of what Calvin mentioned above, the supposed dissatisfaction with Mario’s OLB transition is coming from those who make their assumptions off of box scores alone (a habit quite common among our local newspaper writers and especially common in the national sports media).
I don’t think any knowledgeable Texans’ fan is concerned about Mario’s production this season; barring injuries, I’d bet the farm that he reaches double digit sacks with a few games to spare.
And while seeing him walk without any real compensation would sting, at the same time, the Texans can’t go into a must-win season relying on another rookie. Come 2012, they might know what they have in Brooks Reed and Barwin. But for now, even with the position change, Mario is one of the better-known commodities on the defense.
PS: no thanks on the Atlanta first-rounder. Make it Cleveland’s, though, and things get interesting.
Cleveland’s first rounder would be an easy call to give you (it will be 32nd). Seriously though I’d give you the higher first rounder and a 3rd and the players Bernie mentioned.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 29, 2011 9:09 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions 1 recs
If we’re giving up our own 1st and a 3rd, the best player I’d be willing to cough up would be Ventrone.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 30, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Also A texans fan.
The fan post that was referenced also pooped in our top 2 draft picks names. I’ll say with nearly absolute confidence that we will not trade Mario (but if we did I’d like to see him go to Cleveland over most teams in the league)
I also think Mario is being incredibly overlooked and underrated going into this season. he’s been effecting the game quite a bit in his limited play. Which includes multiple near sacks and swatting a pass (which was a cut block away from an INT) I do think he’ll be a destructive force on defense.
The contract issue does worry me some, while our front office is known for doing their players good come contracts I’m a tad bit worried he’ll jump ship. (although we’d probably end up franchising him then trading). Foster is a RFA if I remember correct, if we offer him the 3 years vet min. he can accept or leave the NFL. I see us paying him good money (not CJ money but good money)
Aswell I think we’ll end up rotating Williams and Reed and our other OLBs to keep them fresh come every play. We don’t have to pick 1 or the other. Well hope that gave some perspective from your average Texans fan.
I appreciate you guys all stopping by and giving your opinions.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
And we appreciate the respect y'all are showing Super Mario.
I can’t tell you how many people in Houston still crap all over him because the Texans passed on hometown hero Vince Young. Glad to see his talents are recognized around the league.
by Nashmeister on Aug 29, 2011 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
We understand — many Browns fans always want them to draft and sign former Buckeyes.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 29, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys clearly made the right pick.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 30, 2011 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I was a little surprised at the time because I was worried Mario was a “draft pre-season” product and his college film was a little hot and cold.
They were clearly right.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
You never know, I suppose.
The draft is a bit of a crap-shoot. When you take a one-year wonder, sometimes you get Mario, sometimes you get Vernon Gholston. Either way, in the case of 2006, you take the 285-pound sack machine over the 3rd-down back and running QB 100% of the time.
I would take some running QBs first. I was not high on VY.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I remember watching a special on ESPN about Mario before the draft. As a Longhorns fan I was curious about how the top picks would play out and also curious about where VY might end up.
They were doing interviews with Mario’s coaches, showing practice footage, etc. First time I’d ever really watched him. I was stunned. I thought he looked like one the most imposing and physically talented athletes I’d ever seen.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 30, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Fun fact. I was working for a radio station covering the Georgia Tech – North Carolina State game in 2005.
It was a national game on a Thursday night. At halftime I get line for Pizza, and in front of me in the line is Phil Savage. Almost worked up the courage to ask him who he was here to see (I assumed Mario Williams was the main target). Right before I was about to say something, Mike Tirico comes up and says hey to Savage (How they knew one another, I have no idea).
They made some small talk as I tried my best not to look like I was eavesdropping like a little girl. Tirico asked Savage who he thought was the best guy on the field, and Savage didn’t hesitate and said Calvin Johnson. Went on for a couple of minutes that Johnson was going to be the best WR in the NFL, no questions asked. (By the way, CJ dominated the game, and Mario Williams was a complete non-factor)
Then when Johnson came out a year later, there were some rumors that the Browns wanted to trade up in the 2007 draft. Many people think it was for Russell, but to this day, I think Savage really wanted CJ (The Browns were even rumored to have offered Braylon Edwards).
Sorry for that, just popped in my head.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 30, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Out of all the PS shit we say, you just now remembered this?
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 30, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
We talk about CJ more though
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 30, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Mario Williams always works wonders for us in my madden game. I’m down!
… but in all honesty, I don’t think there is a chance in the world that the Texans trade him, especially after 3 preseason games following the shortened preseason workouts due to the lockout. I’d love to have him, but I think the Texans would be really dumb to trade him. Or put it this way: I would never trade one of the best DEs in the league because he didnt transition to OLB soon enough.
by shep615 on Aug 29, 2011 7:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
i would trade almost anything on our roster for mario williams. the guy is a full-grown stud, and we are in desperate need of DE help (apologies to future HOF’er jayme mitchell).
but the texans are unlikely to do anything with him at this point. they’ll try like hell to make him fit in the 3-4 and/or figure out a way for him to exert his influence on the game w/ select 4-man fronts, etc. they love him in texas, with good reason, and are likely to try to make him stick.
the guy is a full-grown stud
The guy is an absolute physical freak of nature. I’d be shocked if the Texans traded him.
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 29, 2011 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see the texans parting with mario williams unless they really feel that they can’t re sign him… Moreover I think the browns need at least one more good draft next year (two first round picks helps) to build the core of the team upon which you can start thinking about sprinkling free agents…
"Smokescreen."
but williams isn’t a “sprinkle”. he turns into a core piece that you expect to be on the team and build around for the next 5-7 years.
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 29, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
7 years? I doubt we would be starting a 33 year old Mario Williams in the playoffs. I’d rather spend one of our first round picks on a younger version next year…at less cost.
Hank Poteat owes me 60 bucks.
7 years? I doubt we would be starting a 33 year old Mario Williams in the playoffs.
Why not? We aren’t talking about a RB. John Abraham is 33 years old and is still viable. Peppers and Freeney are both 31. Age isn’t a huge scare factor when talking about DE, especially when it’s a guy that has only missed 3 games in his career.
I’d rather spend one of our first round picks on a younger version next year…at less cost.
I’d take the sure thing.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be nice to see… Sheard developing into a quality starter on the opposite side of MW. Fast and strong, strong and relatively young on both ends.
Still not sure why Houston would change to a 3-4 when their center piece DE is so productive in the prior scheme. Besides that maybe they don’t want him around long term for some unknown reason.
Hank Poteat owes me 60 bucks.
Defensive lineman last a long time. Like B19K said, John Abraham is 33 and he made the pro bowl last year. Reggie White made 6 Pro Bowls after the age of 31.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
Good luck finding another Mario Williams. Don’t get me wrong, I hope we can, but that guy is a once in a decade talent.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
He and Suh. Can you imagine a d-line with both of those guys?
Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.
by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 30, 2011 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
We Texans fans thought of it all offseason before that draft
But we knew it was unrealistic for him to drop that far
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
by The Night Owl on Aug 30, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Only thing that could block them would be a line full of Joe Thomases.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
If there was ever a time for the browns to respond to one of your devil’s advocate posts (assuming this is one), this is it.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
This isn’t a “devil’s advocate post” for the Browns, it’s an “idiot’s advocate post” for the Texans. I honestly mean no disrespect to Bernie, but the Texans are not dumb enough to do that trade.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 29, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Think the Raiders wish they would have traded Nnamdi?
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes. But Nnamdi had a contractual clause that forbade the franchise tag — Williams doesn’t (I assume).
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 29, 2011 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he does, but do the Texans really want to bring back an unhappy player?
Even if they get by the position-franchise tag argument (see Suggs, Terrell) he would still be playing out of position, which will hurt his future pay day.
No offense to the Texan fans that stopped by and gave their opinions, but I don’t think this experiment will work out for the Texans, and I think they will be forced to let Williams walk, or get pennies on the dollar.
Even if they do tag him and trade him, we are talking about a minimal return.
by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 29, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Texans aren’t going to trade Williams any time soon. Just not going to happen. If they don’t think they can resign him, they will franchise him and trade him to a team that will. But there is no reason to do a trade now.
Relatedly, Gholston was cut today: over/under on the number of FanPosts advocating we sign him?
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 29, 2011 8:54 PM EDT reply actions
Wow, they canned his work back to a 4-3 DE pretty quick
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 29, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Bernie should be a lawyer. He can convince me of almost anything. (Jamarcus Russell makes it almost)
"buuuuuuuh!"--- Mooncamping
by Vezoma on Aug 29, 2011 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
By the way, I love the fact that there are 22 other Jayme Mitchell fans.
Cookies and punch on the left.
I thought about being a smart ass, but I just couldn’t do it.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 30, 2011 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
In this one isolated incidence. Normally, no problem.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 30, 2011 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Texans fan here, chiming in on this
There is no way in hell the Texans will trade Mario. Even in the event that he doesn’t work out at OLB, Wade Phillips won’t hesitate to move him back to DE. If he does that, we’d probably be looking at a D-Line of Mario & Antonio Smith at DE with J.J. Watt at NT
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
by The Night Owl on Aug 30, 2011 12:28 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think JJ Watt will fit really well for you at NT. Who knows though, Phillips used an undersized guy in Dallas. But I think JJ is just too much of a talent to waste at NT.
The good news is that Williams fits your 3-4 much better than any Bellichick/2-gapping defense. Wade will turn him loose and I think he’ll be great.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
The way he plays, he'd be an upgrade at NT over Shaun Cody or Earl Mitchell
He pretty much plays DT in the nickel, so it wouldn’t be too far of a stretch. Hell, Wade yanks the DTs on nickel downs & slides Barwin & Mario in to DE while Smith & Watt play DT.
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
by The Night Owl on Aug 30, 2011 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Even though Wade plays a 1-gapping 3-4, the personnel is still much different than that. Sub defenses and base defenses are much different than one another. Your DEs in base have to play like a 3-tech DT or a big, physical 4-3 SDE. Your nose man has to play like a stout, physical run-stuffing DT in a 4-3—like a 1-tech. He’s gotta be willing to stay at home and do the dirty work like Kelly Gregg or Pat Williams—he probably won’t make a lot of splash plays because his job is very blue-collar.
In base, one of your OLBs will play like a 4-3 WDE who occasionally drops into coverage (a Trent Coleish DL) This used to be Ware and it will be Mario for you guys—he’ll rush 80%+ of the time vs pass. The opposite OLB plays much more like a SAM in a 4-3, though he will blitz more than a guy in some 4-3 systems.
The reason things change when you go to nickel is that you are presented with different threats; you are either responding to personnel or D&D where that “blue collar” job of the NT isn’t really needed and you do need to crank up the heat on the passer, as well as to open up what you can do with coverages and blitzes. 4-3 teams do the same things, like the Giants who take their 1-tech off the field and move Justin Tuck (SDE) inside in passing situations.
But just like Tuck would never play inside in place of the 1-tech on 1st down vs. 2 TEs and 2 RBs, you guys would never play Watt at NT in base. It’s a waste of JJ’s talent for one, as it takes away his ability to get after the passer. It also is a bad fit for him just in terms of what the position would ask him to do.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
You’re willing to give up one of our two 1st round picks? But you need those to get Andrew Luck!! You changed your mind?
My dog is a badass. His name is Kosar.
by Brownie's Year on Aug 30, 2011 12:49 AM EDT reply actions
San Fran will be in position to get him
The Browns could use a shiny new WR though
Murphy’s 20th Military Law:
If it’s stupid, but it works, it ain’t stupid
by The Night Owl on Aug 30, 2011 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Unless he pulls an Eli or Elway Luck is probably going to be a Bengal.
Mangini apologist by default.
And why don´t we just snatch Joe Joseph, who in my mind is much more potent as an outside containment/pass rusher DE, off of the waiver wire? .Just not spectacular enough, eh? I endorse him for Pro Bowl over Jayme Mitchell. Why don´t we contest that the Colts will bench Ernie Sims, and get him into starting in a Browns uniform, with a true hall of fame trajectory. You see, it´s just a matter of selling what is the most possible.
do you think joe joseph would leave his current role as assistant to the regional manager at progressive insurance?
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 30, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If he has assurance, that he will play, I´d say yeah. It´s the frigging NFL, it´s an honor.
by mooncamping on Aug 31, 2011 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cleveland Browns Defense
This was an excellent article and read, especially since I am familiar with Wade Phillips, as a Denver Bronco Defensive Coordinator and Head Coach. The Houston Texans will probably not make any major moves especially with franchise players. The Cleveland Browns have an excellent chance of moving forward toward the playoffs this year. The defense last year was great, the offense just had problems generating points. I think the main focus of the Cleveland Browns this year should be finding ways to cash in in the red zone with touchdowns and not field goals. My point here is that yes maybe making some power moves on defense will improve their chances of making the playoffs, but lets makes some definite moves towards Offensively getting the ball into the endzone and outscoring the opponent on a regular basis. Behind the Browns all the way in 2011 Never too Late Get it Done.
http://djrandolphlucky7qb.blogspot.com/?spref=fb
lets makes some definite moves towards Offensively getting the ball into the endzone and outscoring the opponent on a regular basis
I am against making moves towards offensively getting the ball in the endzone; I’d like to be more polite about it.
But I strongly agree with your idea that we should be “outscoring the opponent on a regular basis”—why hadn’t anyone thought of this before? Outscoring opponents should be the top priority of the Browns organization!
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 30, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You have to score points to win a game of football.
cautiously realistic
by North Coast Flea on Aug 30, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
At least until next year when the rules committee introduces the -2 points rule for returning a kick off.
Keep Thomas, Hillis, Haden, Ward, Tuba, 1st round picks.
Everyone else on the table.
I’d be ok with it.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
All of them except Hillis, Tuba and Falcon’s pick. If we get Williams value out of any of these, they can have them. Especially Hillis. Let them waste talent on a RB.
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 30, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
With Foster and Tate on the team, I’m convinced there’s no way they’d add someone like Hillis.
But on second thought, you’re right, Mario Williams is totally worth losing Tuba if we had to.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
I’d trade Hillis and Tuba for Mario. Of course, as you noted, they wouldn’t really need Hillis.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Aug 30, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m kind of biased because I have a signed Hillis authentic jersey. I want him to retire as a Brown.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
Lol, I’m sorry but I highly doubt it’s going to happen.
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 30, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I know, but at the very least I’m hoping for a good career with Browns.
Even if he doesn’t retire as a Brown, I’d be happy if his years here are retired number worthy.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
I’m not trying to burst bubbles here but that is just as unlikely. I doubt he really ever hits what he hit last year. And I freaking love Hillis.
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 30, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he’s really good, fully capable (talent wise) of an even better year. That said, I don’t think there much of a shot of that in this offense.
"I want my unwarranted optimism back." -Dilbert
It won’t be the offense that kills him persay; it’ll be the fact that hardesty is back combined with the effective running of Jackson and our line’s poor ability to zone block. With Steinbach gone now, it’ll get even worse.
Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.
by SpecialBrownie on Aug 30, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
While Steinbach being gone does hurt our ability to get to the 2nd level, I think we’ll be a solid ZB team. I don’t think the Rams’ line is better than ours, and they did good enough to let SJax break some runs—and he was banged up a little bit last year.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I think he’s capable of doing it for at least another 3-4 years. Is that enough to retire his number? I have no idea.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I dunno, it also depends on how the team does during that time. If he has 4 more seasons like last season, he will be between greg and mike pruitt on the browns all-time rushing list. definitely possible
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!
call me crazy.
what if we offered both first round picks for Williams? (and maybe got a 3rd in return).
wouldn’t that be an offer too good for texas to refuse? and we wouldn’t be giving up any known quantities of talent that we currently have.
"You are the worst villains in football, your evil plan never ceases."-Mooncamping
by discoinferno083 on Aug 31, 2011 11:13 PM EDT reply actions
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