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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Roster Eradicated of Mangini's Former Players, Replaced With New Talent

When team president Mike Holmgren and general manager Tom Heckert arrived in Cleveland last year, they gave  Eric Mangini the opportunity to coach the Browns for at least one more season. He would have his players, his schemes, his coaches, and his way of running the team. For as much improvement as we saw in Mangini last year, ultimately, the team failed to improve upon their win total in 2009 and Mangini was given the boot.

What has been interesting since Mangini's departure is the sheer amount of roster turnover their has been. There was a group of players who I felt were clearly "Mangini's players." They were brought in under his watch, and most of them had previous affiliations with Mangini. They were also put in position to contribute regularly. Take a look at this list:

Star-divide

  • QB Brett Ratliff - Signed by the Tennessee Titans. Although he was waived in November last year, there was no desire to bring him back after being with the club off-and-on for two years.
  • FB Lawrence Vickers - Signed by the Houston Texans. He's really the only non-Mangini-Mangini (intentional double name there) player to be on this list. He was with the team before him, but he is also one of the players who really stuck up for Mangini the past two seasons because the coach grew on him. He was repaid by the new front office by watching the team draft a fullback and show no interest in retaining him.
  • WR Chansi Stuckey - Signed by the Arizona Cardinals. No interest was shown in keeping one of the team's leading receivers last year (not saying much). Was the team's slot receiver.
  • OG Floyd Womack - Signed by the Arizona Cardinals. May not have been so much a "Mangini" guy, but he was here for two years under him. Was the team's starting right guard.
  • OT John St. Clair - Currently a free agent. Hard to sign a guy who gives up sacks regularly, but he was basically our starting right tackle the past two years.
  • DE Kenyon Coleman - Signed by the Dallas Cowboys. Was regularly one of the team's starting 3-4 defensive ends.
  • ILB Eric Barton - Currently a free agent. Contributed regularly last year with 66 tackles.
  • ILB David Bowens - Currently a free agent. Reduced to a backup role last year, but still had some big plays against New Orleans.
  • OLB Matt Roth - Currently a free agent, but teams are interested in him. Another guy who wouldn't have benefited from our scheme change, and probably Mangini's best pickup.
  • OLB Jason Trusnik - Signed by the Miami Dolphins. Despite being a regular special teams contributor, no thought of bringing him back, apparently.
  • OLB Blake Costanzo - Signed by the San Francisco 49ers. He played a little for Mangini with the Jets, and then was with Dick Jauron in Buffalo. His Jauron affiliation made me surprised he wasn't retained, but hey, he let him go once, why not again?
  • SS Abram Elam - Signed by the Dallas Cowboys. The Browns had to fill a void at safety, and they chose to go with players with minimal experience.

Those were the roster casualties who really seemed to characterize Mangini. A few of his players did survive, at least to this year's training camp:

  • TE Evan Moore - Even though he didn't play much the past two years, he's still young and happens to be an ideal fit for the new West Coast Offense.
  • OG Billy Yates - Signed during the Mangini era, he was one of the few free agents the new regime decided to bring back. Steinbach being hurt probably helped that decision.
  • LB Marcus Benard - With the team's lack of depth at defensive end and Benard's youth, this was a no-brainer to keep him. He needs to do a lot of work to undergo a change in position though.
  • S Ray Ventrone - He was already under contract, but at least he wasn't one of the players cut pre-lockout. Still, he's nothing more than a special teams guy.
  • P Reggie Hodges - A no-brainer to keep after last season, but ouch.

A few players go unmentioned, such as cornerback Coye Francies, defensive end Brian Schaefering, and tight end Robert Royal. I'm not so sure they were strongly affiliated with Mangini, and two of the three are back. Young draft picks, such as Brian Robiskie and Mohamed Massaquoi, weren't listed either because they weren't free agents, and it'd be foolish to throw away those investments so soon. Also, players like Peyton Hillis and Ben Watson, among others, are not mentioned because I don't know if it is fair to give credit for those moves to Mangini, the new regime, or both.

With that many players taken away, they needed to be replaced. Not including the draft, the new coaching staff and regime have used some of their past affiliations to recruit talent:

  • QB Seneca Wallace - When he retires, he'll be known as the backup quarterback who always followed Mike Holmgren.
  • RB Brandon Jackson - If there's one thing Mangini seemed to fail to do, it was acquire a young running back they he really liked for depth. Jackson isn't necessarily a spring chicken, but the new front office made sure everyone on their depth chart can fit the West Coast Offense.
  • OG John Greco - He was reportedly a solid backup offensive lineman with versatility in St. Louis under Pat Shurmur. With Womack elsewhere, Greco fills his void and is much younger.
  • OG Shawn Lauvao - I broke my rule of not putting recent draft picks on this list, but I think it applies here. Lauvao, despite having very little NFL experience, is being given the confidence by the front office of being our starting right guard. Remember, he was a third-round pick...under Heckert.
  • DE Jayme Mitchell - If there is one player who signifies the major difference in opinion between Mangini and Holmgren/Heckert, it is Mitchell. Mitchell did not sniff the field after Heckert acquired him, but Heckert insists that he's the team's best pass rusher and will probably start.
  • LB Scott Fujita - Brought in last season to be the stabilizing force in the group of linebackers. He's a tad younger, but much better than Barton and Bowers were at this point in their careers.
  • LB Chris Gocong - There are mixed reviews about how good Gocong is, but Heckert is really high on him after bringing him over in a trade with Philly last season.
  • S Usama Young - He might not be directly tied to our coaching staff, but I believe the team deferred to Fujita when asking about this prospect. This sounds like another "Abe Elam" experiment -- an unknown coming in to start -- so hopefully he pays off with better results.
  • CB Sheldon Brown - The other part of Heckert's trade with Philadelphia, Brown is going to start at cornerback again this year and hold the position down until another youngster can be paired with Haden.

There's no doubt that new staffs will want to bring in players that epitomize their style. Mangini wanted to bring in two types of players: past-their-prime veterans, and backup players who weren't terrible but didn't make a big impact. Heckert and Holmgren have taken a slightly different approach.

For the veterans who were brought (Brown, Gocong, Fujita, and to an extent, Watson), those are the type of players who can make a significant difference for a couple of years instead of just being labeled as serviceable. The front office has also made more of a commitment at the same time to get younger players into the lineup. At safety, they declined to sign a veteran and are probably going with Young. On the offensive line, Lauvao and Greco will have opportunities to contribute. Mitchell is going to see a lot of playing time. The team's top two draft picks are being thrown into the starting defensive tackle and defensive end positions. Buster Skrine could be a third- or fourth-cornerback since the team didn't sign a proven free agent cornerback. Others like Nick Sorensen and Robaire Smith, who were good at what they did, probably weren't re-signed because of their age.

It might have been frustrating to see Holmgren and Heckert be so quiet in free agency this year, but remember the splash they made last year and the amount of faith they have in their young talent. Maybe it will blow up in their face, who knows. When it comes down to it though, I'd rather take that risk/opportunity and see which of these young players can shine in starting roles. "Mangini's players" did the best they could, but for the most part, they weren't good enough. Let's hope this year's staff and front office are taking the right approach to ensure this team can get back into contention.

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Great summary, but one line stuck out to me:

If there’s one thing Mangini seemed to fail to do, it was acquire a young running back they he really liked for depth.
This is Heckert’s fault.

Other than that, I really like that the new guys are going young, for better or worse. There will be some major growing pains, and some of these young guys will suck, but at least we’ll know who’s good too.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 11:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, I didn’t mean acquire as in a trade. I was thinking more along the lines of him having Jerome Harrison, James Davis, and Chris Jennings to work with, but he basically ditched all of them and was left with Mike Bell.

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Aug 4, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

*trade or free agent signing

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Aug 4, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is a good point. I was pretty disappointed with the way they handled James Davis.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

same here. i thought Davis had a lot of potential.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know about that, but he was a serviceable backup.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s what i thought we were talking about…

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn’t have much potential. He was a backup, and was probably never going to be anything more than that.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any one of those 3 would be more productive then Mike Bell

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Believe me I know. Davis was a backup, Bell was a scrub.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

again, that’s what i was talking about too.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is picking nits, but I don’t think Davis had any potential to be better than he already was. You said Davis had potential.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah potential to be a backup which is what we were talking about: backup RBs like Harrison and Jennings.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought Hillis and Hardesty were the young depth brought in behind Jerome Harrison?

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 11:43 AM EDT reply actions  

I should have clarified that I was referring to after Hardesty’s injury, when all we had was Hillis.

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Aug 4, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s short notice to bring in somebody.

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I can’t believe there isn’t more FA acquisitions along the DL- teams need depth there due to common injuries and constant rotation of bodies. FO must really hate Robaire Smith. Funny to still see Gerard Warren on the FA list- emphasizes how many high draft choices this franchise wasted since 1999. If he signs for the league minimum, would he be “small money” or “loose change”?

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 11:51 AM EDT reply actions  

We’ve been pretty busy in trying to shore up the DL this offseason IMO.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree. using our first 2 draft picks on the DL seems to be smart. and we shouldnt need FA acquisitions, we still have guys like Schaefering on the team who can rotate in. I cant wait to see what they have in store for our 2 1st round picks next year. they have to go skill player w/ atleast one of the picks

by Stan Wizz - Go Browns on Aug 4, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

They really need to draft a corner.

by Bumblyjack on Aug 4, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’d like to think we’d draft either the best rb or wr w/ the first 1st rnd pick, then grab the best available rt w/ the second 1st rnd pick. a corner can be grabbed in the 2nd round

by Stan Wizz - Go Browns on Aug 4, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why in the world would we draft a running back high? Especially the first round, that’s a waste.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

A RT in the 1st round is a bit of a stretch too, generally if you draft a tackle that high it’s to protect the blind side.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah i’d look for the biggest playmakers in the first: S, CB, DE, WR, or MLB. look in the 2nd round for a RT or RB. or maybe trade down that second 1st rounder for a couple more 2nd rounders.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

the WCO works around the run game and short quick passes. well if hillis goes down and we dont have a rb to continue the productivity, teams will sit back and be ready for those passes. and RT’s, are just as important as the LT wen u run a balanced offense.

by Stan Wizz - Go Browns on Aug 4, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

A WCO doesn’t even require a good running back, just a RB that can catch. Many WCO teams barely run at all. Also, the RT is not as important as the LT. If you don’t believe me, just compare salaries and draft position.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

1. i said in a balanced offense like the WCO offense both tackles are equally important. if ur running an offense like the Colts, then ofcourse ur LT is gna be wayyy more important. regardless of our argument, do we or do we not need a RT??
2. what kind of offense did the Seahawks run wen they went to the playoffs yr after yr w/ Shaun Alexander? the WCO. i dont remember Shaun as being much of a pass catcher, actually he played a style similar to Hillis’

by Stan Wizz - Go Browns on Aug 4, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alexander and the Seahawks are the exception to the rule. Even though the WCO is very versatile (as are all offenses in today’s NFL) it is primarily thought of as a pass-first offense.

Why would what type of offense you run make a difference in whether left or right tackle is more important? Like I told you, look at where the two are drafted and how they’re paid. Those numbers don’t lie. We need a RT, but you can find great ones in the second or even third round.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

u can find anything great in the draft. Tom brady? great players will be great no matter where they’re taken. the only reason i say there is a difference because, manning is ofter in shotgun, the WCO deals with a lot of under center forms

by Stan Wizz - Go Browns on Aug 4, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

And what does that have to do with whether or not the LT is more important that the RT?

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

its watever man. we need a rt. and thats a fact. im sick of seeing guys like st. clair and pashos.

by Stan Wizz - Go Browns on Aug 4, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pashos is servicable. If he doesn’t get injured, he’s fine.

Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.

by SpecialBrownie on Aug 4, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed, but that’s a big if at this point.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never disagreed with that. But taking one in the first round is a waste.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

O-Line only as good as weakest link?

The left side of the line was good, but in pass protection, there were times that St. Clair watched defenders go by without so much as lifting a finger to stop them. I mean that literally too, because I remember seeing a play where the only thing moving on his were his eyes as they followed the defender on his way to sacking the QB.

The Lions are a good example of a team that spend a high draft pick on a QB, then failed to provide a good enough O-Line to keep Stafford healthy. Same thing can be said about the Browns with Couch, and then some! Butch should have gotten linemen in FA, rather than Jeff Garcia.

by micronot on Aug 4, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do we or don’t we need a punter? Sould we spend a 1st round pick on one? No, of course not. You can get quality at the RT position in the second round.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t be over dramatic. RT’s play every single offensive play.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 4, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not over dramatic. The ability to play every play wasn’t the point he raised. You’re bringing up an entirely different point altogether. I’m not saying it’s wrong, but it wasn’t whT he said.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you were Al Davis you’d consider it if that punter ran a 4 flat forty!

by BallStateBrownie on Aug 4, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Saying Alexander wasn’t a pass catcher Nd then comparing him to Hillis is weak. Hillis IS a pass catcher.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I predict we draft in the lower 20s. We could get the best RT available.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t mind drafting a RT high if he is the BPA.

Never draft a RB or LB in the first round are my only rules.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 4, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would take an elite LB, especially running the 4-3 you have to have a guy who can go sideline to sideline. Definitely no RBs.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Completely agree. LB can be totally justifiable in the first IMO, much moreso than RT.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely not.

LB’s that do not rush the passer are rarely ever impact defenders.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 4, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

We need better LBs. From somewhere. There are a few I would think about in the first round, but at this point only with the Falcons’ pick.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 4, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now that we are in a 4-3, I guarantee you there will be a better defensive or offensive lineman available with that pick.

Look at the guys that were drafted into a 4-3 in the first round since 2003.

Take away the pass rushers (Ware, Matthews, Suggs, etc.). To me, there is only one guy on there who I would say is a “impact” LB. I would love to have Willis, but I’m not willing to roll the dice on a 1 in 22 odds of the past 8 drafts.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 4, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Mitchell is as bad as Mangini thought, and Bernard can’t play DE, we’ll need a lineman too.

Either way there is a lot left to happen between now and next April, the only difference between what we are saying is that you have already crossed LB off of your list and I am open to drafting one.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 4, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Mitchell is as bad as Mangini everyone not named Heckert thought,

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

No one thought he could add something for us in passing situations last year? Not enough to put him on the field once?

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know, but he hasn’t played his entire career. It’s not like last year was an aberration.

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 7, 2011 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

if you want a 4-3 LB, go into the 2nd round.

Rocky mcintosh
DQ
David Harris
Demeco Ryans
Paul Posluszny
Tatupu
Laurinitis

RT in the first, LB in the 2nd

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was shocked when Demeco didn’t go first. I think he was projected first. I was a big Bama fan at the time. Little undersized I guess.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly. Kinda like DQ (who was i think projected as a 1st/2nd round guy). Thats what you get a lot of in the 2nd. an elite LB who has one thing off. A little short (demeco), a little slow (laurinitis), limited experience in college due to injuries (david harris).

2nd round always has some great values

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

but isnt that true at every position?

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

2nd round having great values? you find a lot more at LB for some reason. probably because the difference between a 1st round and 2nd round LB is often very marginal taking them in the first is overpaying

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ray Lewis, Patrick Willis.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

A.J. Hawk, Keith Rivers, Bobby Carpenter, Derrick Johnson.

For every 4-3 LB that it taken in the first, it seems like there are two that are nowhere near worth the pick.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 5, 2011 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Define “impact defender” and then define “impact right tackle.”

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think using a first round pick on any lineman is acceptable.

Under the old system, I wouldn’t have used a top 10 pick on a RT, but with this rookie pay scale, I have no qualms using a first rounder on a Guard or a RT if they are legit.

Sure they are “easier” to find than LT’s, but that doesn’t mean they are easy to find. As we have seen over the past two years, if you right side of the line is porous, it doesn’t matter how air tight the left is. If a RT is there and the FO thinks he is a 10 year starter, run the card up.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 4, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t mind a first round RT I guess, especially later in the round. But I think it’s highly unlikely there isn’t a more valuable player on the board during the early parts of the round.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Besides QB and the 1 or 2 top receivers in each years draft, I can’t think of any position besides OL (every position) that would help an offense more so why not?

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you’re hungry for a cheeseburger, that doesn’t mean you don’t still look for the cheapest cheeseburger you can find. You don’t just pay $20 for the first cheeseburger that walks your way. You know you can get a cheeseburger that will satisfy your craving for $5, so why spend 15 more than is necessary? Especially when you could’ve spent that 15 on the steak you’re really gonna want tomorrow night.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

A $20 cheeseburger would be awesome (I would assume). I had Kobe beef blue chz burger for about $12 that was pretty damn good too. John St. Clair was a $5 cheeseburger. I’ll spend the extra $10.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Point = missed.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

More like point ignored

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

If youre cheeseburger ignores your stomach its the same as it missing it. :)

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

YOU ARE CHEESEBURGER

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not if you try to introduce it to your stomach through your nose. Then the fault lies with you. Wait, what? Nevermind, I just wanted to stick a cheeseburger up your nose. By nose I mean.

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would prefer a 5 dollar shake than a 20 dollar cheeseburger

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

is there bourbon in it?

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 4, 2011 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to Pulp Fiction you should but that was like 17 years ago. Due to inflation your shake should be at least $8

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think using a first round pick on any lineman is acceptable.

i agree 100%. either side of the ball.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think well go defense with both picks. Maaaaaybe a WR? I have to admit i don’t really know what’s going t be up for the taking in next seasons draft. How many second round picks will we have? Wouldn’t be surprised to see us trade away one of our first round picks.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

as of now, i believe we only have our 1st rounder. i think we have the falcons’ 1st and 4th.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Think we may be able to trade away one of our 1s for a couple of 2s?

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

i should have said out 2nd rounder above, but it seems you got my point. sorry about that.

i think you can probably move the falcons’ first out, but i wonder if 2 2nds are better than a late 1st? guess it depends on who is available at the falcons’ pick.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

in most cases i would say so, but yeah it really just depends.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends who’s second you’re getting back.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m thinking top OT and a saftey or corner

by lightninmcqueen on Aug 4, 2011 2:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I liked the draft for DL- but since then. We were willing to give up a #5 for Bunkley- since he left for Denver have we picked up another DT or DE who can step in and contribute? I was in Dallas for 10 years, starting with Landry’s last year. Depth and constant rotation (v. big name big $ guys) is how JJ built that Cowboy’s defense. Charles Haley for the second half of that run was the biggest exception.
Since OL are not on rotation, you can do a lot of damage rotating 8 solid (but not spectacular) DL in there all game.
I am not ready to speculate on the 2012 draft yet! I know there are DL out there who can help us this year more than Schaefering and a couple others. FO must agree, or they wouldn’t have tried to use one of those coveted draft picks on that pile of BUNK!

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

well in most cases a 5th round draft pick doesn’t really mean a whole lot. the only difference from trying to get Bunkley and using it on a rookie next season is that Bunkley is still a young vet who could’ve contributed to our rotation right away. whatever rookie we get next season with that pick will likely get limited time and may never make an impact.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Going young for this season should bode well for the Browns. Who knows, maybe we can pencil in Young at FS, Mitchell at DE, and Skrine as the nickelback at season’s end as the starters for next yr. Then we have a better defense, w/ players at all positions, and we can then switch our focus to…lets say draft a WR! Which a lot of ppl want around here. Or maybe a RB. In next’s years draft we should be taking a RB or WR, and a RT in the first round

by Stan Wizz - Go Browns on Aug 4, 2011 11:59 AM EDT reply actions  

like others have stated, it’s not worth using a 1st round pick on a RT or a RB these days. maybe if Atlanta goes pretty far in the playoffs again and we end up getting a 25-30 pick we could use it on a RT, but RB should definitely wait until 2nd or 3rd round. the Emmitt Smiths, Barry Sanders, and Adrian Petersons of the world aren’t as common as they used to be

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

im pretty sure the consensus is that the falcons will make the playoffs. which puts there pick anywhere from 20-32. and i said to use the ‘second’ of the 1st rnd picks on a RT. so exactly wat u said, is wat i said. lol. we just differ on the rb opinion

by Stan Wizz - Go Browns on Aug 4, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

well you didn’t really specify where you wanted the RT. at the most i would maybe take one at 20 if he’s the next Ryan Tucker, but even Tucker wasn’t taken until the 4th round which helps prove that it’s not necessary to take one so high.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would definitely use it on a RT, not an RB though. Why would you not want the best Tackle you can get at RT?

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because is dumb to overspend?

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rookie pay scale

"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden

by Kimble_79 on Aug 4, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Monet is not the only rEsource that is spent.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 4, 2011 4:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah, I heard he was tapped out by the end of his career.

"... you slay the chicken and you crack the egg ..." - Moon

by JustBob on Aug 4, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Money is not the only resource that is spent.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 4, 2011 4:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I he’s the best player on your board you take him every time. You cannot have enough good OLs

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

The best player on your board could be a punter. Value matters.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 4, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey the punt is the most important play in football, as someone once said.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh… Debatable.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but one NFL punter won’t punt the ball all that much better than the next guy. Value matters.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 4, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was only joking, obviously the value of punter doesn’t compare to well, any other person on the team.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, but if a stud right tackle is there in the bottom half of the 1st round, I would probably take him if he is your BPA. I would not take one in the first half of the 1st round though just to clarify.

"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden

by Kimble_79 on Aug 5, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

RB and WR are terrible decisions. Absolutely terrible. RB’s in the first round are waste picks.

Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.

by SpecialBrownie on Aug 4, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

And WR in the 1st is a luxury pick that we can’t afford at the moment.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the veterans who were brought (Brown, Gocong, Fujita, and to an extent, Watson), those are the type of players who can make a significant difference for a couple of years instead of just being labeled as serviceable.

Every team needs to round out their roster with serviceable players. The difference now is we’re doing this with young players that may have some upside. You won’t have young guys emerge as difference makers unless you have them on your team and put them on the field. At our stage in the building process, we might as well give them a chance.

by Bumblyjack on Aug 4, 2011 12:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Greco is supposedly a life long Browns fan. I like that.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

I like that too, but do you sometimes think that the Browns acquire players solely on the fact that they have local connections or are Browns fans? Maybe that is what we need to od to get players to play in Cleveland.

by SBP on Aug 4, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

that doesn’t really happen all that often. the only guy i can think of out of recent history is Charlie Frye.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joe J.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jason Trus.

Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.

by SpecialBrownie on Aug 4, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

LeCharles Bentley

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

i know Zastudil went to school at OU also, but that’s just barely a handful out of how many players we’ve acquired over the past 5 years? i don’t think there’s any real initiative for our front office to grab Ohio-based players. the better strategy is finding guys that are used to working hard and are super motivated. the northern parts of America tend to have those kind of players like the Big 10 (Joe Thomas), but it would only hurt is in the long run if that’s all we focus on.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cribbs, U. Young, Zastidul was from Westlake, Robiskie as well as the players below.

I think this notion with this FO will decline and I don’t think Greco (played at Toledo) was added becuase he was a Brown’s fan.

It just always seemed like we had a handful of guys from local schools or grew up here or something. Probably becuase we had some guy hurt and needed someone to fill in.

by SBP on Aug 4, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think we do it enough. We have elite college players in the state and we don’t seem to take advantage of that enough but I’m definitely being a homer now

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

don’t take my earlier comment the wrong way. i’d love to have Ohio-based players on our team to give us more of a sense of pride, but that’s just icing on the cake. we need playmakers and contenders.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I read it from the pov that we need to be able to “attract” free agents. Super Bowl caliber in next couple years? NO. Great weather? No. Intangibles of a New York, LA, or Chicago? No. Willing to overspend? No.
If a good player grew up a Browns fan or has some Ohio connection, it would be stoopid not to pay special attention to them. btw, ef south beach…

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

If a good player grew up a Browns fan or has some Ohio connection, is available it would be stoopid not to pay special attention to them.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

my thoughts exactly. rec.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not from Ohio, and neither are many others on this site. The Browns winning will give us all the pride we need. Get players who will help us do that, regardless of where they’re from.

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 4, 2011 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is an Ohio?

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

if we’re talking about ships i know there’s a Navy submarine in commission today called the USS Ohio.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

There have been 5 USS Ohios. Your sub being the newest.

*DNHs' disclaimer: The above comments are not necessarily representative of the opinions of other DBN members (In fact, they are probably the exact opposite). Also let it be known, that IMO applies to all comments posted by this member.

by DawgsNHawgs on Aug 5, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s good to know. thank you.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

First, was the one used during the war of 1812.

*DNHs' disclaimer: The above comments are not necessarily representative of the opinions of other DBN members (In fact, they are probably the exact opposite). Also let it be known, that IMO applies to all comments posted by this member.

by DawgsNHawgs on Aug 5, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

just take the best players available. i don’t care where they went to college.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

How would you sell the organization and the city to a prospective free agent? The big names are not coming here under these conditions. Having an Ohio tie is one of the few things we could possibly have going for us, b/c we won’t overpay, the weather sucks 9 months a year, the team is not about to be contending…
“Don’t you want to play with Joe Thomas?” Okay, we have that going for us…

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha that was awesome. gotta love a good roast.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 4, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does every third one of those dollar signs look weird to you?

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m on Safari on iPad … Look fine to me.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 5, 2011 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

looks fine on Chrome.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

How would you sell the organization and the city to a prospective free agent?

Hookers and blow.

"... you slay the chicken and you crack the egg ..." - Moon

by JustBob on Aug 5, 2011 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

where they go to college does matter…only to decide how good of a player they are by determining level of competition. I am not saying like the difference between the Big 10 and the Big East, but more like Big 10 vs. the UAC (or the egghead eight)

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thiz-is.

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 4, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

For as much improvement as we saw in Mangini last year

like what?

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Personality wise. He became much more likable. He stopped trying to be Bill Bellichick and started being Eric Mangini.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I started reading upwards and felt the same thing and noted it below. Good point!

by SBP on Aug 4, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

so what? he became more likeable. big whoop. that sounds a lot like accepting a loss as an accomplishment. Mangini never gave us a contender. we’re still considered a joke in the league. i have high expectations with Shurmur not so much because i think he can do it but because he better do it. we need to bring a winning culture back to Cleveland and Mangini wasn’t getting it done. oh but he was likeable right?

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

in the time that he was at cleveland, he was a total dickbutt until he indeed started to become “ERIC MANGINI.” No, he didn’t have a winning season last year. Did we start to see things pick up though? small things at first from the team starting to act like an actual TEAM to players trying harder for him. i think if he was given one more year, we wouldve starting a winning trend.

the thing is, you never know, right?

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 4, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

you’re right that we don’t know what the future would’ve been with him here next season, but personally i saw enough out of Mangini that it wasn’t worth the experiment, and Holmgren obviously did to. there may have been some positive moments at times like against New Orleans and New England, but there wasn’t consistent enough evidence proving he was going to lead us to the playoffs anytime soon.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don;t get me wrong… He needed to be fired, no question… He was not going to succeed. Shumur can be more successful becuase he has the full support of the FO behind him. Mangini never had it. Not to beat this more, but Lerner put way to much confidence in Mangini to run the show way too early. No use arguing now.

You are right Shumur has high expectations and Homlgren and Heckert have alot on the line by picking him as head coach. ALOT!

by SBP on Aug 4, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Daboll was the problem IMO

The Browns had a very tough schedule last year and played against many playoff bound teams. This year, they have a very easy schedule, and that alone likely would have resulted in the team going 9-7 this year.

When Holmgren came in, I wish he would have told Mangini “I know you are a defensive minded coach, so you need a really good offensive coordinator. If you want to stick around as head coach, you need to let me find you the best OC available and give him free reign of the offense”. If they had gotten a good OC at the start of last year, and installed the WCO, they could of had Seneca Wallace start at QB, because he knows the WCO, had McCoy as the backup, and never had bothered with Delhome. The team would be so much further ahead this year had the done that. And again, with the easy schedule, why not 10 wins this year.

But changing to new HC, DC, OC, new offensive and defensive systems, plus a lockout shortened preseason, due to all that we will be lucky to get 5 wins this year.

by micronot on Aug 4, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree with you for the most part, but the simple matter is that Mangini didn’t want to get rid of Daboll and he’s held accountable for Daboll’s lack of production. thats just the simple chain of command.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, NTN touched on it. Personality wise, and for our hot stretch of the season, a willingness to pull out more tricks in the playbooks.

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Aug 4, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chris, that hot stretch was only 2 games. a 2 game hot streak won’t get you in the playoffs. we need to be better than that.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea and that debacle in the last game of the season showed that the players gave up on Mangini

by Granville74 on Aug 4, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

after that i knew Mangini was gone no matter what. getting blown out by Pittsburgh like that completely negated whatever progress we made after beating the Saints, the Patriots, and competing until the end of overtime against the Jets. i’m just hoping the same doesn’t happen to this new regime because every time i saw it happen with Crennel and Burch Davis too it just ruined all hope i had in them.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was done after the Bills game

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

yeah anytime you lose to the Bills you know it’s time for a change.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats why i left at halftime during that game to tailgate some more

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 4, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

What happened after that 2 game stretch?

First, Fujita was injured, then Womak, and Cribbs were injured, and Hillis was playing with broken ribs. Plus Daboll was still the OC, and an injured St. Clair had to step in at RT.

by micronot on Aug 4, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

and an injured St. Clair had to step in at RT

This was the nail in the coffin.
BTW – you’ll hear it from the mods eventually so I guess I’ll mention it. We generally don’t use the subject line here at DBN unless you post a very long comment (multi-paragraph, etc.) or a large photo, in which case it serves as a “collapse” mechanism. Otherwise it is just considered annoying and distracting when reading the threads.

Go, I say go away boy, you bother me.

by burntorangeandbrown on Aug 4, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also we barely lost many many games.The year before we were usually out of it before halftime.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was fine with those answers a couple years ago – for us to at least contend in a football game. but i’m tired of it now. there comes a point where enough is enough and we need to win. period.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t worry nobody was more happy to see him go. I like Shurmur a lot, he seems a lot more natural and comfortable. Mangini always felt like he was struggling to be something he wasn’t and people usually don’t have lot of confidence following people like that even if some of his players liked him.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

he seems a lot more natural and comfortable

what in the world does this mean? And whatever it does mean, how did you come to this conclusion after he’s done so little of his job?

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 5, 2011 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know, maybe from watching and interacting with other people?

by HenryDawg on Aug 5, 2011 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree- but you are in for a long season if “a better 5-11 team than last year’s 5-11 team” is unacceptable.

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’m well aware we’re going through yet another rebuild but at least we’re actually headed into a real direction. can anyone actually define the direction Mangini was leading us into? there was no real formula or strategy to our offense. could you possibly imagine how terrible our offense would’ve been if we didn’t strike gold with Hillis? and Ryan’s defense was great, but that’s not because of Mangini’s influence. that’s something Rob has in his DNA since he was little.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’m tired of it now. there comes a point where enough is enough and we need to win. period.
I took that to mean we need to win this year. You’re right, Mangini’s regime used up their grace period. Bringing in Shurmur brings with it yet another grace period. It’s just hard to get excited about another losing season, grasping at things to be hopeful about.

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

many of us share different opinions, but i’m among one of those that i wouldn’t have expected a winning season regardless if Mangini stayed or got canned. so i’m at least excited that we’re headed toward a more proven and worth while direction than Mangini was leading us toward even if it means yet another losing season.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

what “more proven and worthwhile direction”? shurmur is a rookie and jauron is a career joke. holmgren isn’t coaching.

mangini deserved more than he got from us. either holmgren should have shitcanned mangini right when holmgren arrived, or he should have given him a full 2-3 years to let his program play out. maybe daboll needed replacing, but mangini had the team playing disciplined, tough, fundamentally sound football. w/ talent infused from heckert, this organization was headed the right way.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree with this. Mangini got more than they wanted to give. He got an extra year on th “promise” of improved results. The test was when Heckert infused some talent in, Mangini “refused” to use the talent and that is whta did him in. I gather that from interviews this year with Heckert. It is clear they were not happy about Mangini not using Mitchell.

by SBP on Aug 4, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

i mention this below, but mitchell literally had no place in a 3-4. heckert gave mangini and round peg for a square hole on that one.

aside from mitchell, though, what impact talent did heckert get for mangini? jake delhomme?

and we also don’t know what mangini said to keep his job. whether it was improved results, improved team cohesiveness, improved discipline, willingness to try some WCO concepts … it’s all speculation.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I commented below, but it had to be a tough spot for Mangini.

by SBP on Aug 4, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed.

my other question was serious: what other impact talent would you say h&h handed mangini? i think we have to assume that the draft was a collaboration, so i don’t think haden/ward count on that ledger. plus, if you’re handing a guy rookies and expecting him to make the team better immediately, that’s a bit of a stacked deck.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fujita, Sheldon Brown, Hillis (I know he was probably a Mangini guy but they still made it happen)

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t call Sheldon Brown impact talent, but I’ll give you Fujita.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

if he is talented, he can find a place (even as a situational player). Whether or not he is talented remains to be seen but Heckert does have extensive experience when it comes to talent evaluation

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

JakeDelhommeIsBeast

"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden

by Kimble_79 on Aug 5, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

honestly, you are getting annoying with calling Jauron a career joke. the numbers his Ds put up aren’t that much worse (and are at times better) than the ones Rob Ryan put up.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

he took an expansion D in Jacksonville (with no more talent than Rob Ryan ever had) and turned it into at least a middle of the road D for multiple seasons. He also did solid (considering the circumstances) in Detroit.

His downfall was when he was HC and calling plays. when he had success, it was more consistent than Rob Ryan ever had.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who said Ryan was great? Jauron has had so little success as a defensive coach as to be laughable. I hope he proves me wrong, but theres no reason to think he’s got the talent on this team (or the sophisticated system) to improve on Ryan’s results last year.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 5, 2011 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t he win a Super Bowl as a DC?

by HenryDawg on Aug 5, 2011 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

that statement is completely false.

but theres no reason to think he’s got the talent on this team (or the sophisticated system) to improve on Ryan’s results last year.

actually there is. His track record as a DC is much better than Ryan’s.

Here is where Ryan’s Ds ranked in terms of yards allowed.

31, 25, 18, 26. 24. 21, 13

And here is Jauron in years where he was primarily the DC (not really fair to judge years where he was DC and HC)
28, 19, 15, 17, 18, 21.

I’d also say Ryan had more talent in his time in Oakland than Jauron did during most of his time as a DC.

I get Jauron is nothing amazing, but he did a good job with very poor talents on D.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 5, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Grasping at straws, dude…

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 5, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would say trying to say that Ryan’s resume is so much better than Jauron’s is grasping at straws, mostly at one outlier year where he was in the top half.

What you don’t see with Ryan in those #s that you do with Jauron is at least some consistency. Jauron’s #s are a very tight grouping whereas Ryan’s are all over the place.

Please explain why Jauron is worse? I go by evidence and there is no evidence to your ridiculous point that he is just so godawful

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 6, 2011 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Firstly, YOU are the one who said Jauron’s #s “aren’t that much worse” than Ryan’s, and now you’re (shocking) moving your goalposts and saying that Jauron is better numbers-wise. I never made any comparison b/w the two except to say that there’s no reason to believe that this year’s D is set up to be better than last year’s.

I do want to get your point straight, though … Jauron’s 15-28 spread is more tightly grouped than Ryan’s 13-31 spread, and therefore Jauron’s more consistent shittiness (1 year in the top half of the league, according to your numbers) makes it more likely that this year’s defense is better than last year’s, even though we switched systems, cut the entire DL, added 2 rookies to the DL, lost E. Wright and Abe Elam, and Jauron hasn’t run a defense in a couple of years.

Rob Ryan is totally incidental to the point, really: Jauron has never coached a good defense ( as your numbers prove). I see no reason why he is likely to start this year.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 6, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I never made any comparison b/w the two except to say that there’s no reason to believe that this year’s D is set up to be better than last year’s

not specifically in this thread but you have several comments talking about how much Jauron sucks and also liking Rob Ryan. Going on your history here.

He has coached solid defenses for a while in places without a ton of defensive talent. I am never sure if he ever coached a “good” defense but its not like we replaced a guy who ever coached a “good” defense. To me, at worst this is a lateral move at DC.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 6, 2011 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wish I could edit that post…

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

edit button please

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 4, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude he had The Process. What that involved I have no idea but he sure talked about it a lot

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

so does every other coach out there. they are trained to use non-committal speech and use ambiguous verbage so as not to make anything set in stone.

Smile big, hug bigger. Talk big, act bigger. Stop judging do something, shut the fck up do something.

by pwndabear on Aug 4, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

The fumble, The Drive, The Decision, The Process….

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

this is ridiculous.

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 4, 2011 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alabama football has “The Process” and its workin awesome for them.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

last years 5-11 team also faced the 2nd toughest SoS by football outsiders and even with that, lost quite a few close games. Not ever 5-11 season is the same.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Holmgren disagrees. I trust him over you.

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 4, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

he wanted to see improvement on record. Even if it was a tougher SoS, I am not surprised he made a firing when there was no improvement in the record.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

mangini had 2 years to clean up the shit show that he inherited from romeo/savage. that’s not exactly a lot of time to “get tired of it”.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was applying that to all our season since 99 when we came back.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was fine with those answers a couple years ago – for us to at least contend in a football game. but i’m tired of it now. there comes a point where enough is enough and we need to win. period.

Just remember that this season.

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

the defense improved a great deal, but that was with Holmgren and Heckert leading the draft with Haden and Ward as well as Rob Ryan’s amazing defensive schemes. how much credit can we truly give to Mangini for those accomplishments? our offense was still a joke with Hillis being the only bright spot that NO ONE expected. without him those PPG averages could have been worse than the year before.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Mangini was a defensive HC, I think he had more to do with our D than our O.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you aren’t giving him credit for the defense, but you’re going to blame him for the offense? gotcha.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

how many defensive coordinators are as great as Rob Ryan? even Mangini isn’t as good of a DC as Ryan is.

Mangini should’ve known our offensive schemes were junk, so why didn’t he use his executive power to find a better OC than Brian Daboll?

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or find a QB better than Delhomme? Oh wait that was the infallible Holmgren/Heckert.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does Wallace count?

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seneca Wallace should have been our starer last season.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 4, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

staring at the ground after an INT?

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 5, 2011 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe if he could keep passes over 15 yards in bounds.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rob Ryan’s defense ranked by points:
2004→31
2005→25
2006→18
2007→26
2008→24
2009→21
2010→13

So obviously quite a few DCs are as great as Rob Ryan. The guy had personality and he did interesting stuff, but the results speak for themselves.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most of the time, our offense has been such garbage that it ruins the defense’s numbers. I don’t know how to account for that- maybe number of TD drives over 60 yards given up?

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or you can just take the numbers at face value and not try to make excuses?

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 4, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Many other teams in the league go through just as many problems and issues as the browns

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 4, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

First, a primer: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods

These statistics are adjusted to account for things like down and distance, time on the clock, etc. They provide a way of comparing players and teams relative to an equal baseline. For defenses, higher percentages are bad. Here are Rob Ryan’s rankings, in the same order:

26
20
8 (!)
22
19
30
17

Slightly better in Oakland, worse in Cleveland. The guy is not a great (or even good) coordinator.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

In contrast, in his 4 years as DC for the Patriots, Romeo Crennel had rankings of 13, 14, 2, and 6

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Under Butch Davis the Browns were never worse than #14 in the league in defense, peaking at #3 in 2001.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s cool! Kind of like the new QB rankings. I notice the last 2 years Rob Ryan’s adjusted numbers are actually worse than the “face value” numbers. I’ll miss his character, but we can obviously do a lot better…

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you like that, spend some time poking around the site. They’ve got values for everything.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also a disclaimer: those stats and ratings aren’t close to perfect, and the authors admit as much. But they are another tool to use in evaluating teams and players.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Saving the site. Curious if it will add anything to my fantasy football over-analysis?

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

you know what, those #s look a lot like Jaurons…probably not even as good.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Especially finishing games. We gave so many away at the end. Even the Saints game got tense for a bit.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

all this proves is that we needed a change then.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

No it doesn’t. The defense improved from #30 in Ryan’s first year to #17 in his second. What my post proves is that you can’t give all the credit to Ryan. You have to let Mangini share that credit if you’re going to blame him for Daboll.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

okay, sure Mangini had an average defense and one of the worst offenses in the NFL the past two seasons. that’s still not proof enough that we needed to keep Mangini around.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I never said it was.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

how many defensive coordinators are as great as Rob Ryan?

Many. Many, many.

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 4, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great in what way?

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great buffet destroyer.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

He may be the greatest DC in the league at providing the media with a quote. Otherwise, he’s average.

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 5, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

alright alright, so maybe i exaggerated the term great for Ryan.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

thats stilly. He’s definitely a good DC, definitely above average.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 5, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d like to direct you to the rankings above. Rob Ryan is average at best.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

If things were as simple as looking at rankings than no one would bother to scout. Theyd just look at rankings tables.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 5, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

We aren’t talking about a player here. What in the world makes you think Rob Ryan is an above average coordinator? Every single number says otherwise.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

The exact same can (and should) bebsaid about Jauron, which really grinds my gears.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 5, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know what really grinds my gears? You America. F*%$ you!

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 6, 2011 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Believe me I know it.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 6, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mangini wanted to bring in two types of players: past-their-prime veterans, and backup players who weren’t terrible but didn’t make a big impact.

I have always stuck up for Mangini and think he did a better job than most in the Cleveland and national media give him credit for. However, the above statement is very true, and was very much a problem with Mangini’s approach.

2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion

by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 4, 2011 1:04 PM EDT reply actions  

He was trying so hard to be “Bill” instead of himself. It was only after awhile he started to be Eric and by thta time it was too late.

by SBP on Aug 4, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

He had two seasons! Scratch that 1 season!. Last year was what they call playing out the string.

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, i’d have to agree. which is why i thought the combo of mangini and heckert could have been really exciting. mangini was establishing a culture and identity in the building that hadn’t been there in a long time. w/ some real talent, as provided by heckert, mangini was going places.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Osi U.

Off topic (hence the subject line), but how much do you want to bet that Phil Savage would have already given the Giants a first round pick for the guy, along with a huge contract?

2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion

by TheDriveStillHurts on Aug 4, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Savage would’ve been groveling on his nuts by this point. i would like Osi, but not under those conditions. i respect Heckert a great deal for not being as pig-headed as Savage. Heckert trusts his gut.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heckert trusts his gut because it’s growing so rapidly that it’s beginning to intimidate him.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

The splash was during the draft. Some say the trade down in the draft for picks was the biggest story. If they can convert on those draft picks acquired from Atlanta then the story is bigger.

by SBP on Aug 4, 2011 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Clearly Jaymie Mitchell is absolutely the most celebrated pass rusher in the history of the NFL that had only 5 sacks in 5 years. Heckert can zap Mangini all he wants – he was the one who traded for a 4-3 DE while we were playing a 3-4.

Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen

by realmccoy on Aug 4, 2011 1:56 PM EDT reply actions  

he probably did so with the intention that we were switching defenses by the end of the year. and there was no reason we couldn’t have used Mitchell at least on small occasions on situational pass-rushes as an OLB.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Mitchell was a free agent this year. If it was a move for the future giving up the pick was totally unnecessary.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

there’s no guarantee we would’ve had him if he’s as good as Heckert believes he is.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think you get it. He was a free agent as soon as the season ended. Every other team had the chance to sign him and didn’t.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 4, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

We kept his production down so we could get him on the cheap!

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 4, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Apparently that’s his career plan. To continue to do nothing so that he can continue to sign cheap contracts. It’s so crazy it just might work!

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

mooncamping?

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

mooncamping should definitely be a verb

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 7, 2011 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

good point. do you think its possible then it was a guy Heckert liked and wanted to find a spot for but mangini didn’t see a place for in his scheme?

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

definitely. i spoke to a guy who was in the building all year last year in berea (he’s since moved on), and i’m told that jayme is a talented guy (also a very nice guy, for what that’s worth), but a guy with literally no place on a 3-4 team. he’s not an OLB, he can’t play special teams, and benard could do those things.

this person told me he thought mitchell would be successful in the 4-3.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

This burned Heckert though right? It was probably a lose/lose for Mangini with Mitchell. Play him, but where? Don;t play him and get canned. Tough spot to be in.

by SBP on Aug 4, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

He could have played where we were in 4 man fronts. Instead we moved Roth to DE and he sucked there.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 4, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

i guess we didn’t run enough 4-man fronts to warrant even a roster spot for mitchell, though. he didn’t even get to dress.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you can probably find a place for him in some packages, but it wouldn’t be the easiest thing to do. I think it would have also been more likely that they could find a place for him if he was with the team from the beginning rather than coming in halfway through the season.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s probably true about the whole season, but I would think there weren’t quite enough sets that needed a traditional DE to warrant a slot if he wasn’t contributing elsewhere (like special teams)

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 5, 2011 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

and you could find a place for him elsewhere possibly if he had been practicing with the team from the beginning.

We can try to say that mangini didn’t start him because he didn’t want to or because he had no place in that D, but neither are all that truthful. In truth, its hard for a rotational guy to find a spot halfway through the season on a D he is not the best suited for.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 5, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I refuse to believe that a team that dressed Robert Royal 16 weeks couldn’t find a spot for a situational pass rusher.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 5, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

how could that be the case if every other player had to wait until just a week ago to sign with teams?

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’ve got a bit of a point here. We did have the chance to sign him before anyone else, but are those three or four days of added negotiating time worth a draft pick? That’s the trade we made. A fifth round pick for the right to sign him early. For Jayme Mitchell, I say that’s a waste.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

not if he leads our team in sacks and QB pressures. we just gotta wait and see how he produces.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

But we could have waited a few days and signed him anyway, retaining our draft pick.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think him being around this team and teammates for a season helped us immensely.

Sure we could have signed him without the trade, but would he have wanted to come here? I’m not saying the lack of PT doesn’t make the trade look foolish, but I’m not going to lose sleep over a 6th (5th? 7th?) round pick in 2012.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 5, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well I think he had most of them his rookie year when he actually saw the field. After that he was pretty much on the bench the rest of the time.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

RE: Youth movement is here (at LAST)

It’s long overdue in Cleveland! Here’s a stat that should get folks’ attention: The average age of Pittsburgh defensive linemen is 34. The average age of the D linemen it looks like will start for the Browns is 24. That statistic says more about where this team is headed than any other. It should be interesting to watch the old (Pittsburgh and Baltimore) defenses late in games and late in the season versus the young studs Cleveland is going with. I’ll take ours at this point any day of the week. The future is right around the corner. Lean, mean machine in 2013.

by Wyoming Chas on Aug 4, 2011 2:36 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

this is the reason why im ok w/ saving money for a yr or 2

by Stan Wizz - Go Browns on Aug 4, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec except for the subject line

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mangini’s players" did the best they could, but for the most part, they weren’t good enough

Mangini wanted to bring in two types of players: past-their-prime veterans, and backup players who weren’t terrible but didn’t make a big impact.

It’s funny because two years ago everyone here was just as excited about Mangini’s players who weren’t good enough and past their prime.

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 4, 2011 2:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Not I. Would’ve rather kept Crennel than bring in Mangini. But then again, I wasn’t here.

*DNHs' disclaimer: The above comments are not necessarily representative of the opinions of other DBN members (In fact, they are probably the exact opposite). Also let it be known, that IMO applies to all comments posted by this member.

by DawgsNHawgs on Aug 4, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

ditto. i liked Crennel a lot but came to despise Savage as time went on.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is complete insanity.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 5, 2011 3:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

There were tons of people (maybe not here) who were less than thrilled that Lerner hired Mangini without even a glance at other coaches. We were also particularly annoyed that he traded our #5 pick for former backups who were “his guys” more than they were talented.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was the only one debating that those Jet players were worthless, and for the most part everyone was happy that we were getting “solid players/depth”. All you would need to do is go to the 2010 draft page and see.

What’s funny is that those same types of players are what we picked up this offseason, and once again everyone is satisfied until 3 years down the line when non of them are on the browns anymore and people have the same bitterness toward Shurmur as they have towards Mangini.

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 4, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t know if I commented here at that draft, I was at Rolex that weekend but I definitely complained about him later and got flamed like crazy. In any case, I think Shurmur is going to be a much better coach then EM. Just intuition at this point but I trust my own suspicions pretty well.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, what an accurate picture of what actually happened and how people actually felt.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do you even read the other comments on here?

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 5, 2011 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do you read the other comments on here?

game day thread

trade thread

Jets fans even had to express how ecstatic they were to give up aging players and backups for a huge jump.

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 5, 2011 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Both of those links go to the same article. The only person who posted there that is still a regular is Chris. Here is the highest praise offered in those threads:

I love it. More picks plus live bodies.

I would have taken it for just a 2nd rounder, but then throw in one starter and one possible starter WOOHOO

In contrast, here are some other comments:

We trade 3 times in the first round and basically got something we could have gotten in the 2nd round with all the extra picks we have, We could have had a WR here with the 1st rnd pick, browns fans i am one of you but face it its over before it gets started

you could have gotten a Center in the 2nd rnd with all those picks

we need a play maker and now we may not get one.

someone remind him hes not with the jets

I suggest next time you read you’re own link. This is trolling. Cut it out.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I didn’t see any comments from you “claiming” we were ripped off.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 5, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I was the only one debating that those Jet players were worthless

They weren’t worthless. They weren’t long term above average starters, but they had a purpose.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

less than thrilled that Lerner hired Mangini without even a glance at other coaches

this is what irked me about Mangini right from the get=go.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

bah get-go*

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s not Mangini’s fault. So why would that irk you about Mangini. That was the owner’s decision. Not the GM’s, because he hadn’t hired one yet, and definitely not Mangini’s.

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah Lerner made a mistake, but when Mangini got here he just got all Genghis Khan on the team treating everyone like his minions. repainting murals and fining a player a bunch of money for a bottle of water. there was no purpose to all that crap.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

repainting murals and fining a player a bunch of money for a bottle of water.

None of that actually happened. It was all sensationalized headlines and speculation.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

if you say so, i never heard that part of the story.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

The mural was moved to a place where the team could see it better as opposed to anyone who had entrance to the facility. Most if not all of those reports were overblown.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 5, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

You could say they were Grossi overstated.

"... you slay the chicken and you crack the egg ..." - Moon

by JustBob on Aug 5, 2011 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

In addition to what NCF said, the water bottle fine wasn’t just for a water bottle, it was for repeated bad behavior.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

we didn’t need a 5th overall pick, we needed as many picks as possible. are you seriously saying we should have drafted Sanchez over mack?

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, we should have gotten more than 3 backups in exchange for that pick

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Umm… he did get more than three backups, he got 2 backups and a starter, and stockpiled on picks.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

we got more than 3 backups, we also got Alex mack and a 2nd round pick (which mangini squandered on veikunage). And when here, Coleman and Elam were starters here, though average at best for their position. We also got Coye Francies who will probably play nickel for us.

Actually (to your comment below), when you are in the first year of taking over a rebuilding team, sometimes a 5th overall pick is not very useful. This was also a very poor draft to begin with (Donald Brown was a 1st round RB). Before this new CBA, spending a ton on a bad draft pick in the top 5 could handcuff a team. Also, what turns around a rebuilding team, a top 5 pick or #21 and a mid-2nd rounder? Generally the latter if you can hit on both (and you have 1 more chance to hit)

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 4, 2011 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

and you always can use a 5th overall pick

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

How was your board set at the time?

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I have no idea now, I think maybe Orapko or Hawk? In any case I don’t mind the trade down, I just wanted more for it – like another 1st (which we got this year for 1 spot lower).

by HenryDawg on Aug 5, 2011 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hated the Mangini hire.

Love the trade. Still do. Getting out of that money slot was worth it alone.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 5, 2011 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why does the money for that slot even matter to you? It wouldn’t have affected our salary cap, so why is it relevant?

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 5, 2011 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah it would.

Alex mack: 5 years/12.20 million
mark Sanchez: 5 years/45 million (with easily obtainable incentives up to 50 million)
Andre Smith: 6 years/~42 million.

We would likely be paying him about 8 million a year, around the level of Andre Smith (who was drafted right after him). He is making less than 2.5 million a year under his current contract. Thats a whole solid player right there.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 5, 2011 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

I stated that confusingly. I meant that paying a player in that slot wouldn’t have hurt us or prevented us from making any personnel moves at all, as we were like $50 million under the cap.

I see so many people bringing up salaries as if it were there money. Prior to this year even big spending teams like Washington and Dallas NEVER had salary problems, so I don’t see why it would be a problem to a fan

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 5, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

So those teams never made any moves to help with their cap situation? Ever.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

just because we are in a good salary cap situation now doesn’t mean that we should have taken the hit in that spot. The decision to trade down was a good one imo. What he did with the 2nd round pick was an awful move and the whole thing would look so much better if that decision weren’t so poor.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 5, 2011 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

just because we are in a good salary cap situation now doesn’t mean that we should have taken the hit in that spot.

Yes. Yes it does. It makes absolutely no sense to claim that we needed to trade out of that spot because we needed to save money we weren’t going to use anyway. Where is the sense in that?

The decision to trade down was a good one imo.

Well why was it a good move? What good came about it? What did we use that extra 4 million on?

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 5, 2011 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

we should have taken Clay Matthews Jr….

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

so a team should stay there whether or not it is the pragmatic long-term economic move just because it wouldn’t hurt them in the short term?

Also, the Browns were not in the great salary cap situation that they are in now when mangini took over

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Intensive Purposes? I could care less...
your whole argument is a fallacy!

by bross09 on Aug 5, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

It makes absolutely no sense to claim that we needed to trade out of that spot because we needed to save money we weren’t going to use anyway. Where is the sense in that?

Just because you have the cap room to use, doesn’t mean you should use it. That is exactly how teams get into cap trouble.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 5, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you ignore the “money we aren’t going to use anyway” point?

How can the Browns get into cap trouble when they aren’t going to use the money they saved by moving out of that spot?

To make it simpler, what has that 4 million they saved been applied too for the last 2 year? If money is so important, why didn’t they move out of the 6 spot where they took Haden? Both years they were 50 million under the cap

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 5, 2011 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

To make it simpler, what has that 4 million they saved been applied too for the last 2 year?

Not a crappy run of the mill QB who the Jets paid through the nose for. Pretty simple.

If money is so important, why didn’t they move out of the 6 spot where they took Haden?

I’m guessing that no one else wanted to move up. Just because we want to move down doesn’t mean we can.

Guess why teams rarely move up? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ It’s that simple.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 6, 2011 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Prior to this year even big spending teams like Washington and Dallas NEVER had salary problems

The Cowboys are in tons of cap trouble right now. The fact that you don’t understand this, is the exact reason why you don’t understand that getting out of the #5 pick money slot was huge for the Browns.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 5, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’re in cap trouble because the salary cap decrease by around 30 million because of the new CBA. The fact that you don’t understand this is the exact reason you continue to make excuses.

Even paying money at that slot we’d still be 30 million under the cap

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 5, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

As long as you’ve proven you’re still paying attention to this thread, care to back up this statement?

I was the only one debating that those Jet players were worthless, and for the most part everyone was happy that we were getting "solid players/depth". All you would need to do is go to the 2010 draft page and see.
I’m not going to let you keep calling out everyone on the site and then ignoring everyone when you’re proven wrong.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 6, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hope you have a comfy chair.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 6, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’re in cap trouble because the salary cap decrease by around 30 million because of the new CBA.

A complete freaking lie.

It’s because the Cowboys have down a piss poor job of managing their cap. And guess what, their cap situation will be even WORSE next season. Quit spewing nonsense and acting like it’s fact.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 6, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you serious with this? Signing the 5th overall pick would not have affected our salary cap? The one that we had to get under by gutting the roster and filling it back up with the same “solid players/depth” you just complained about having to bring in?

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

The hell are you talking about? The Browns 09 payroll was $90, in 08 it was lower than that, and last year it was even lower, putting them under the cap for about 50-30 million each year.

do you seriously think by cutting Delhomme and Rogers they saved 40 million dollars?! lol

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 5, 2011 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

You’re not taking in account penalties we had for trading Winslow and Edwards.

That money just doesn’t ‘poof’ disappear.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 5, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree to that and I admit that I was excited about those players. Excited for what they were. Easily acquired to create depth at positions and not long term solutions. You different things when you expect to have time to build a team.

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

SS Abram Elam – Signed by the Dallas Cowboys.

I missed this.

by emily522 on Aug 4, 2011 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

I have the feeling in 3 years when there is another FO turnaround, people are going to look back at the moves this regime made with the same criticism as the type Mangini receives now.

by The Licensed Pessimist on Aug 4, 2011 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

the only reason why i’ll be critical is if we lose and i’ll be that way toward any coach that comes through here.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

San Fran shopping Taylor Mays already? Looks like we made the right pick in Ward.

"Call Kenny Loggins, cuz you're in the Danger Zone!!!"

by Gabe Durrant on Aug 4, 2011 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Shhh, you’ll make RealMcCoy cry.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mean RealSanchez? Because Mays is a USC product.

Pittsburgh is just jealous. We got Cudi and they have Wiz.

by SpecialBrownie on Aug 4, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

My bad, i don’t know why but I was thinking of Earl Thomas.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably because Mays through a hissy fit when Seattle took Thomas over him.

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Earl Thomas has Troy Polamalu potential. Taylor Mays kinda sucks…

by scrumm on Aug 4, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Earl Thomas has Troy Polamalu potential.

Please tell me you recognize how dripping with Texas homerism this sentence is.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

When I say “potential” I don’t mean he will reach it. Just that his instincts, capacity to understand the game, and athleticism give him that upside.

I may be a multi millionaire someday. Odds are fairly low, but with what I do for a living, I have that potential.

by scrumm on Aug 5, 2011 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, this bugged me on the way in to work. Yes, the comment came across as homeristic, but I normally make an effort to dehomerize my comments.

Would you pick a safety with a top-15 pick that you knew did not have at least the potential to become the next Troy Polamalu?

I wouldn’t.

by scrumm on Aug 5, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Troy is one of the greatest safeties of all time. If the requirement for a top 15 pick is knowing that the player has the potential to become an all time great there would be about 3 picks made in the top 15 each year.

Back it up a little.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 5, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 6, 2011 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’m willing to stand up and say i was furious that we took ward over mays at the time. i live in LA, and i watch a lot of usc, and i was convinced taylor mays was only slightly inferior to eric berry.

glad i’m not making any draft picks.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

the only knock i heard from Mays is that he’s too bulky. i didn’t pay attention to his season last year. was he really that bad?

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Too bulky?

Physically, the kid is all you could ask for and more. He just isn’t that good at football.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

i kept hearing his draft prospect as being to big for the position, like more of a LB build than a safety. idk, it’s no big deal really, that’s just what i remember. i think they were correlating it with how slow his movements were for that position.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

what does idk mean?

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 5, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 5, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

This could turn out funny

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Aug 5, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

IKR

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 5, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Could have- nobody seems to know…

The snozberries taste like snozberries!

by discgolfur on Aug 5, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would like Mays at OLB.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 5, 2011 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of all the young guys, having Sheard face off consistently against against JT is the worst thing that could happen IRT his development. The only thing he can do against JT is fail, so he’s never gonna know what moves would work against mortal LTs.

"... you slay the chicken and you crack the egg ..." - Moon

by JustBob on Aug 4, 2011 4:46 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s like when you run in 1000 lb. ankle weights, once they come off it feels like you can fly

by HenryDawg on Aug 4, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

This. I see it as the best possible way for him to learn.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 4, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed. i see it as a good thing.

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guess I should have added a /sarc tag.

"... you slay the chicken and you crack the egg ..." - Moon

by JustBob on Aug 5, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same with Little vs. Haden.

by Bernie19Kosar on Aug 4, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

holmgren’s a big dude, but who knew heckert was such a pudgy hobbit?

by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 4, 2011 6:35 PM EDT reply actions  

I thought Heckert was at least six inches taller.

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

While Holmkert has been a fantastic upgrade, the biggest mistake they made was the failure to whack Mangini and start fresh. This construction project should be in its 2nd year. While hindsight is 20-20, there were enough signs. The roster was bad and old – not a good combo. And despite the winning streak – the offense was literally unwatchable.

Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen

by realmccoy on Aug 4, 2011 8:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I watched it so nanny nanny boo boo.

"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"

by troy145 on Aug 4, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

even as a fan who didn’t agree with Mangini’s hire to begin with, i appreciate Holmgren giving a chance with Mangini. i was even curious to see what he could accomplish after that 4 game winning streak in 09. obviously it didn’t work out, but you just gotta accept it and move on.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 4, 2011 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

So is this pure hindsight or are you on record as having said this prior to last year?

"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein

by rufio on Aug 5, 2011 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

In all honesty, prolly more hindsight. I was intrigued that the team responded late to Mangini when they had nothing to play for. But clearly, we were running an offense more fit for Friday nights than Sundays.

Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen

by realmccoy on Aug 5, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

eh, if anything both regimes brought in players they were familiar with or who they thought with be able to assist in implementing “their” philosophy. On their own I don’t any of the players we have brought in on those lists are worth writing home about.

QB Seneca Wallace – When he retires, he’ll be known as the backup quarterback who always followed Mike Holmgren.

Mangini still had tweedle dumb and dumber and then had his hand forced to acquire Delhomme and Wallace. To bad players.

Mangini still had Harrison and he brought in Hillis. Jackson is meh. Why a Holmgren draft pick but not Mack for Mangini?

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 4, 2011 9:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Why a Holmgren draft pick but not Mack for Mangini?

I just felt Mangini stuck with the veteran guard/tackle for two losing seasons, while Lauvao is going to get in there right away and contribute. Also, first round picks don’t really need to be credited to a specific coach/regime — they are pretty much guaranteed to see the field.

Dawgs By Nature - Covering the Cleveland Browns on SB Nation.

by Chris Pokorny on Aug 4, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Delhomme and Wallace
To bad players.

Hear Hear !

Cheers!

by rebuilding year on Aug 5, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Flag for correct usage of: Hear Hear.

cautiously realistic

by North Coast Flea on Aug 5, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

yep, that was bullshit.

Resident Tim Couch Apologist.

by Dawg Nuts on Aug 5, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

And cheering the an incorrect use of To (2)

by HenryDawg on Aug 5, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

and critiquing bad grammar with more bad grammar.

Yvan Eht Nioj.

by Brownsbacker488 on Aug 5, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

nice

Mangini apologist by default.

by Villeslgr on Aug 7, 2011 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

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