Do the Browns Go Up or Down in 2012? Like it or Not, We're Doing it With Pat Shurmur
by Chris Pokorny on Jan 2, 2012 4:12 PM EST
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PrintThe NFL is a funny business.
Last year, Steve Spagnuolo led his Rams into Week 17 with a chance to defeat the Seahawks to claim the NFC West title. The Rams failed to get the job done, but with Sam Bradford under center, expectations seemed high heading into the quarterback's second season.
Last year, Raheem Morris led his Buccaneers to a ten-win season with a group of players who were virtually unknown. It looked like they would get a playoff spot, but there just happened to be one-too-many wildcard teams who shared the same record and owned a tiebreaker over the Buccaneers.
Today, neither of them are head coaches anymore, having had their teams put on pitiful displays during the 2011 campaign. Spagnuolo's Rams finished the year with just two victories, one of which came against the Cleveland Browns. Morris' Buccaneers started the season shaky, and then completely gave up. The Buccaneers finished the season on a ten-game losing streak. In their final eight games, they gave up the following point totals: 37, 35, 23, 38, 41, 31, 48, and 45. Ouch.
One coaching change that won't be happening as the offseason begins involves the Cleveland Browns. Whether we like it or not, Pat Shurmur will 100 percent be the team's head coach heading into next season.
How do we evaluate the job Shurmur did in his first year? I like to ask myself if there are any redeeming qualities when it comes to keeping a head coach. In other words, "is there something I can look back at on this season and say, 'Shurmur did [this] well.'?"
The Browns played well defensively, but I don't see how you can directly attribute that to the "offensive-minded" Shurmur. Shurmur was brought here to install the West Coast Offense. After 16 games, I don't see how anyone can say they were encouraged by the offense this year. The Browns scored 218 points all season. The only two teams who scored less were the Chiefs and the Rams, and they are both undergoing coaching changes.
Shurmur came under fire during the 2011 season for play calls in short yardage situations, the team's clock management, the manner in which he spoke during press conferences, his utilization of guys like Evan Moore, Jordan Norwood, and Peyton Hillis, and more.
The one thing you can attribute in Shurmur's favor is that he was dealt a bad hand to begin with. Forget the fact that he took over a team that did some positive things under former head coach Eric Mangini. When the front office decided to move on from Mangini, they knew they would be losing Rob Ryan and Brad Seeley in the process. That means the continuity from the previous season would be pretty much nil. The NFL lockout was projected to have a negative impact on teams like the Browns, who would be forced to install a new West Coast Offense and a new 4-3 defense.
The special teams unit took an immediate hit this year without Seeley. "Aces" like Blake Costanzo and Nick Sorensen were gone. Joshua Cribbs was banged up most of the season. Ryan Pontbriand went from Pro Bowler to head case. Reggie Hodges suffered a season-ending injury in training camp.
Shurmur inherited a group of receivers that were not up-to-par for NFL standards. The team drafted Greg Little, but the front office made it clear they would not seek a veteran receiver to help strengthen the unit. Shurmur was forced to work with receivers who either couldn't get separation (Brian Robiskie), had terrible ball skills (Mohamed Massaquoi), were still raw (Greg Little), or were banged up / only average (Joshua Cribbs). The best weapons provided to him for the West Coast Offense were Peyton Hillis and Brandon Jackson. Shurmur couldn't control the Hillis fiasco (to no fault of his own), and Jackson, who I would've projected to be the offensive MVP, went on injured reserve in the preseason.
Are all of these things just convenient excuses for Shurmur? I'm not trying to turn a blind eye to the negatives and sugar coat the job Shurmur did, but he could have lost the locker room numerous times this season in a worst-case scenario, especially with the "Hillis" situation. Instead, even with a backup quarterback under center for the final three weeks, I saw a team that finished the season fighting. We shouldn't have to accept mediocrity and make "battling" the new standard for success as a Browns fan, but I also appreciate the fact that I never thought, "man, this team has mailed it in," during a game this season. Browns cornerback Sheldon Brown reflected on the season on Monday by offering his vote of confidence for Shurmur heading into next season:
"I think [Shurmur] did a tremendous job dealing with being a head coach for the first time," Brown said. "Everybody thinks it’s an easy job. Everybody wants to sit in a room and say, 'I can do this better. I can do that better.' He dealt with the situations to the best of my knowledge the best he could, and he kept this football team fighting. And for me, that's how I judge a head coach. If a football team goes out there and competes their tail off week in and week out through thick and thin, which it was very thick this year, but we didn’t quit. So that tells me the leader is in place, and the guys believe in him, and they will fight for him."
This will be Shurmur's second season coming up, but it will be his first true offseason. Maybe you don't believe offseason programs make a big difference, but they could. And while the defense was the focus of the draft and free agency this past season (Phil Taylor, Jabaal Sheard, and Dimitri Patterson), the offense will likely be the focal point this offseason. Let's see how Shurmur does with a couple of new playmakers, an offensive coordinator, and how else he improves upon his first season. If the offense looks just as bad a year from now, then we'll talk about a change at the head coaching position. Until then, we have to accept that Shurmur is "the guy" and hope for the best.
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For Holmgren and Shurmur, this is make or die. Another 4-6 win season and I bet Randy loses it and fires them all as Browns fans finally stop buying the product.
by Johnnypronto on Jan 2, 2012 4:20 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I sincerely hope this doesn’t happen. I don’t think I could deal with another regime change. I honestly can’t think of a different scenario which includes front office personnel that wants to be here and can be more successful than what we have. Maybe after another 3-4 years of mediocrity, but so soon? To me it would be a bigger blow to the gut to go through yet another rebuild. Ugh…Makes me nuasiated just thinking about it.
Honor. Courage. Commitment.
by Brownsbacker488 on Jan 2, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
same here and this is just consistency for consistencies sake but more like making rash decisions over second guessed clock management skills.
Also no matter who the QB is, everything I’ve heard it takes 3 years to master the WCO. Rodgers was decent his first year but he’s nothing like what he is now so pick a guy who has potential and give that QB a few years too.
Matt Flynn already knows the WCO so, the Browns will have to give him some serious consideration.
by Brocolis154033 on Jan 2, 2012 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
Is he tall enough? What round was he drafted in?
by SBP on Jan 2, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
He knows the offense, has a decent arm, and has thrown almost half as many TDs as Colt in 1/13 the playing time.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 2, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
I still think we should give Flynn some serious consideration.
Clemson Tigers 2011 ACC Champions!
"That's why Carolina's in Chapel Hill and USC's in California and the University in this state always has been and always will be Clemson . . . You can print that, tweet that, whatever." -Dabo Swinney
Huh? Huge difference between Green Bays weapons compared to the Browns. Thats like comparing a Ferrari to a Ford Focus. We would never see Flynn’s production in ONE GAME (or a fraction of it) in the Cleveland offense. Flynn comes here, be ready for disappointment.
"The rush of battle is a potent and almost lethal addiction, for war is a drug."
by dirtyjoe on Jan 3, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Huge difference between Green Bays weapons compared to the Browns.
Greg Jennings is the only thing better about there offense outside of the quarterback. Our line is much better than theirs as well.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 4, 2012 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
Greg Jennings is the only thing better about there offense outside of the quarterback
Seriously? Man, this is just crazy.
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 4, 2012 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
Our line is much better than theirs as well.
I forgot to comment on this too. Flynn looked really good in the pocket/getting the ball out. Yeah yeah yeah one game, but I couldn’t help but think how he’d look behind our line.
Clemson Tigers 2011 ACC Champions!
"That's why Carolina's in Chapel Hill and USC's in California and the University in this state always has been and always will be Clemson . . . You can print that, tweet that, whatever." -Dabo Swinney
They’re missing a lot of guys on that line. I think they might be down to their 3rd string at a couple of spots.
I think we’re all looking forward to your scouting report.
I still have to write that haha. I think I’m going to wait and see if the Browns hint at any interest first.
Clemson Tigers 2011 ACC Champions!
"That's why Carolina's in Chapel Hill and USC's in California and the University in this state always has been and always will be Clemson . . . You can print that, tweet that, whatever." -Dabo Swinney
Dear Mr. Heckert,
I think if you give Andy Reid some Applebee’s coupons, he’ll come coach here. I know that’s a tough trade, but I’m willing to pitch in and offer you coupons for every game he wins here. How’s that for a deal?
Thanks,
Doc
Even Doug Dieken admits Joe Thomas is the real #73
Are you serious???
You think Heckert’s going to share his Applebee’s coupons?
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
by Villeslgr on Jan 4, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He’s a 7th round draft pick. He’s 6’2" tall. He has two starts in his NFL career.
According to you and several other folks around here the chances that he is, or ever will be an elite QB is pretty much slim to none.
If anything, I’d say Flynn is exhibit A for the argument that having great weapons and playmakers surrounding a QB will make him (and the offense as a whole) look good. Much more so than the other way around.
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 3, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
Idk, a lot of people were saying that Green Bay’s WRs are average for the most part and that Rodgers makes them better. Plus GB lacks a strong running game as well.
Clemson Tigers 2011 ACC Champions!
"That's why Carolina's in Chapel Hill and USC's in California and the University in this state always has been and always will be Clemson . . . You can print that, tweet that, whatever." -Dabo Swinney
I’d say average is a good term to describe them. I really like Greg Jennings and Jordy Nelson, but if you take away the Rodgers factor they are probably an “average” #1 and #2 WR.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Well, they were prolific with Flynn in there too, so there goes that theory. Green Bay has put on a clinic in nearly every game this season and you guys are seriously calling their WRs pedestrian?? They have one of the deepest WR corps in the league. Does great QB play enhance it? Obviously, but it’s a marriage, and production like that can hardly be called average. I would say their line is just as capable as ours (minus 73) and all other position groups are stronger in GB than here. To even compare their WRs to ours is an absolute joke.
Well, they were prolific with Flynn in there too
pro·lif·ic/prəˈlifik/
Adjective:
(of a plant, animal, or person) Producing much fruit or foliage or many offspring.
(of an artist, author, or composer) Producing many works.
You can’t be prolific in one game.
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
According to you and several other folks around here the chances that he is, or ever will be an elite QB is pretty much slim to none.
And I stand by that. But he hasn’t shown us he can’t do it yet. Colt has. Flynn has thrown for over 300 yards in a game, he has shown a real flash of talent. Colt has shown poise a couple of times, but poise only helps you win games if it’s paired with talent.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 4, 2012 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
With a Superbowl winning/contending supporting cast. He did not make them better. They made him look better.
I’m just not in the “get the back-up” bandwagon.
Yeah seems like that plan fails more often than it succeeds. Hasselback and Schaub being a notable exceptions.
Any plan to get a QB fails more often than it succeeds. But Matt Flynn has not shown himself to be a bad NFL QB yet, and that alone makes him more attractive to me than Colt.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 4, 2012 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
So does Brett Favre, but we are not calling him. Just because they know it does not mean we should make them our starter.
So does Seneca Wallace if I’m not mistaken :-/
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 4, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
I completely agree with you Johnny. This team is no better then the team H&H inherited and yesterday all you heard was how close they were. I really hope that this is just the “Company Line” and the management knows better. Another off season of them sitting on their hands (especially when it comes to WR) in free agency and we are in the same boat next year.
You agree with johnny pronto? Flag.
by macdowellm03 on Jan 2, 2012 5:48 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I would contend that it is better – at least in terms of the roster. Early draft picks are mostly playing up to expectations. That couldn’t be said for many of the mangini picks. Let’s remember that we had all new coaches, new systems on all three sides of the ball, no one who could hold on to the ball, and our biggest offensive weapon was injured/holding out most of the year. I agree it was hard seeing them ignore F.A. WRs but who was really out there besides S. Rice who got a boatload of money (and had a poor to average season)?
Give it some time. At the very least Heckert seems good at what he does and the talent on our roster will keep improving – that’s at least 75% of the battle right there
No addition of playmakers on offense – no improvement.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
Browns are likely going DE/RT in the first round, you know it. I know it. Then we go WR/QB in rounds 2-3. Heckert has basically already said it except they may go CB instead of DE if they get the right guy.
I think Holmgren tried to tank for Luck and the Manning injury/fluke Dolphins win screwed everything up. .
That would seriously suck. Under that scenario – I would sign Desean Jackson. We got the cap room, Randy’s got the money, Shurmur’s got the connections.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
Really? We need another whiny Braylon Edwards type? Fail.
Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein - Joe Theismann
I really don’t think he is a BE type. These teams who break the bank for players who have never really won a thing in their lives should be more careful, it really pisses off the other players who are working their asses of just as much. You can pay a Brady or Manning, but Mike Vick had 1 good comeback here with the help of awesome receivers helping to make him look good, I don’t blame him for wanting part of that pie. Same thing with Buffalo.
We have to take a chance some time. We averaged less points than a Brian Daboll coached offense. We would be adding a dynamic playmaker for free. No trade, no draft choice – free. Randy just raises some bank fee to unsuspecting college kids and he is back to even in no time. These trade downs are not working for us. We cannot continue to have more talent leave in FA than we sign. We cannot let FAs walk and then spend DCs to replace them.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
I agree totally with that. You could lure Desean here with the selection of RG3. A powerful- armed quarterback who can throw deep and stretch the opponents defense.
Free agency happens before the draft. Desean isn’t waiting for the draft to make his choice, he is going with top dollar the first week of March.
Then spend the money and get him. He is a proven deep threat, no risking on a college player on this one. This allows up to use the 23rd pick for BPA at DE/LB/RB. First pick of second round can be a top line RT/OL.
You dont want Desean Jackson. Problems Problem Problems, If he were that great philly would have signed him for more than the 600,000 grand he was playing for. He is problem in the Locker room, and wont be in Cleveland.
I would agree with this most of the time but I’m pretty sure he got pissed that Vick got 100 million while he’s still on his rookie contract while making Vick look pretty good. Is it great that he acted like he did? Definitely not, and a player like him needs some handling but if you give him a decent contract I think he plays hard for you. He’s earned it.
you know it. I know it.
I don’t think anyone else in the universe “knows it”. Not even Heckert who likely already has a draft strategy laid out.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Heckert has basically already said it
WTF are you talking about?
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 2, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Browns are likely going DE/RT in the first round, you know it. I know it.
Based on…?
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 2, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
My money is that they hire Brad Childress. He is such a tool that everyone else in the organization immediately seems more charasmatic.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
by realmccoy on Jan 2, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree about Brad Childress. One big problem this year was the coaching, and a lot of that stemmed from a first year head coach doubling as offensive coordinator. Both are full time jobs, with the OC calling plays during the game. Last year, I thought hiring Dick Jauron to coach the defense was an excellent move, and that really payed off as the Browns’ defense finished in the top 10 in the league. Get us a guy like Brad Childress as OC, and a new special teams coach, and we will see improvement right there. Then the next step is getting us a couple of viable receivers.
That’s really not a bad idea, lots of x-head coaches do a helluva lot better as coordinators than as head coaches. Look at Dick LeBeau..
Childress was available last year. Why didn’t we make that choice then. If they really wanted him they already could have hired him.unless Childress said no or maybe nex year and that’s why they did not make the hire.
by SBP on Jan 2, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t the browns D the worst defense in the league against the run?
by Brocolis154033 on Jan 2, 2012 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
That’s stupid. Receivers are too volatile, you can’t waste both first rounders only hoping one will be a #1 if you’re lucky. Plus there isn’t an AJ Green can’t-miss WR prospect in this draft.
That’s fine, Mike Wallace and Antonio Brown are 3rd and 6th rounders and you can find speed later in the draft if you trust them to catch. Personally I would still like to see C. Mitchell on the field some more. I think his 3 catches on 4 targets with 2 first downs is pretty good for little playing time over 2 games. The fact that he actually runs a route past the sticks is encouraging.
Love Blackmon – one of the best college WRs I have ever seen. In college he can’t be covered, and really plays hard. Physical downfield blocker. Plays like he is 6-3. But then you get the actual measureables and you compare him to like a Megatron or Andre Johnson and he just doesn’t stack up physically. If he runs below a 4.5 – I am all in on this guy – if not – maybe grab the Baylor kid with the 2nd first rounder.
Change isn't good or bad it just "is". Don Draper of Madmen
one of the best college WRs I have ever seen
I am all in on this guy – if not – maybe grab the Baylor kid with the 2nd first rounder.
I probably haven’t seen as much of Blackmon as you, but if I think a college WR is that great, why should it matter what his 40 is if he is horrifically awful (mid 4.5s or higher) for his draft position. Does he look fast on tape? Does he get open downfield? these are more important imo than whether he runs a 4.49 compared to a 4.51.
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Exactly right. Also – had to chuckle when I read your comment…
A.J. Green ran the 40 twice in the combine – his times were 4.49 and 5.51 :-/
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 2, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t catch that. Right under and right over 4.5 flat. Just showing that whether a guy is “over 4.50” or “under 4.50” is pretty arbitrary and small factors and one misstep can create a .02 second difference in these players.
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You don’t consider Blackmon a can’t miss?
by macdowellm03 on Jan 2, 2012 5:47 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Hell no. I think he’s a shorter Dez Bryant.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 2, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
That’s not true. WR Performance isn’t contingent on size, but it helps. The same way it’s not contingent on speed, but it’s one the measuring tools.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 2, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Did you watch the sports science on Blackmon? He has a larger catch radius than Plaxico Burress.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Dude is good, no denying that. I wouldn’t mind having him.
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 2, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Calvin Johnson and Justin Blackmon are not the same person. Size means a different amount to different players. By the way Calvin Johnson is a physical freak.
by macdowellm03 on Jan 3, 2012 12:56 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Justin Blackmon at #4....Malcom Floyd at #24ish(from Falcons)
Major Upgrade to the position and would make a QB drool with anticipation in the offseason.
What you do is so loud no one hears what you say.
by far our greatest need. I don’t know if Floyd lasts that long, though. They both block very well, catch with their hands, break tackles, are physically ready for the NFL, and have more than one year of success at the collegiate level.
What you do is so loud no one hears what you say.
If we had 20 interceptions i might agree, but how about Tannehil in round two?
What you do is so loud no one hears what you say.
taking a guy in round 2 who was a RB/WR until this past year? No thanks. Take a QB high or don’t expect great things. The success rate for QBs drops exponentially the lower in the draft you go.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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taking a guy in round 2 who was a RB/WR until this past year? No thanks. Take a QB high or don’t expect great things. The success rate for QBs drops exponentially the lower in the draft you go.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
because they will end up being good? because they are completely different QBs. The guy I think could be this year’s Dalton (if there is a later round guy who does well) is Kirk Cousins. In the right system (with competent weapons and protection), he could be really good.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Yeah I’m not comparing styles but just unhyped guy who will go high first, early second who could have some first year success.
I just don’t see it with Tannehill. I don’t think he played in a pro style offense and this was really his first year full time at QB. He is a project guy I think. The guys who usually have early success are more polished.
I honestly don’t get exactly why Cousins is considered by some to be a mid-rounder. He doesn’t wow you, but outside of when you get a lot of pressure in his face (his glaring weakness), he doesn’t have huge holes in his game. He reminds me a lot in this way of maybe a better Sanchez who could do well with a great supporting cast.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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True. Colt is not getting the Browns to a Super Bowl. Lets end the line of crappy QBs and finally get one with an arm. Thinking back, who was the last strong armed qb we’ve had? Brian Sipe? Testeverde? There are two worthy picks to select in top 15-20. Lets get one.
I don’t think Floyd is that great. He is a nice player, but probably will never be a #1. he doesn’t have any glaring weaknesses, but he doesn’t really stand out honestly.
I really think that Little will end up being a better pro WR than Floyd…especially if he improves his drop problems.
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I was at game yesterday….and Cribbs as a WR looks flat out GOOD. Time to get him more involved…
Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein - Joe Theismann
the routes he is effective running though are somewhat limited and he can’t be used in every situation.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Well, he’s not supposed to be playing WR1.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
he isn’t though. He hasn’t really been the #1 for any significant point this season. Its always #2 or #3.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Thankfully this B1G figurehead is gone…Go Sparty…Eff that team up north…
Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein - Joe Theismann
If only Joe Pa and mcqueary were on the field for their loss to a C-USA squad
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
What a win for MSU. And OSU… I’m over it. The coaching staff from that game won’t even be here next season, aside from Fickell (and maybe some others?).
Clemson Tigers 2011 ACC Champions!
"That's why Carolina's in Chapel Hill and USC's in California and the University in this state always has been and always will be Clemson . . . You can print that, tweet that, whatever." -Dabo Swinney
That effort by OSU today was terrible.
I can’t put into words how excited I am to get rid of that offensive coaching staff.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 2, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
Clemson Tigers 2011 ACC Champions!
"That's why Carolina's in Chapel Hill and USC's in California and the University in this state always has been and always will be Clemson . . . You can print that, tweet that, whatever." -Dabo Swinney
The one bone I always had to pick with Tressel/Bollman was over the offensive play calling. They were always too conservative and predictable. I’ll never forget hearing the SoCal defensive players saying after they beat us that everything they saw on the field was what they saw on tape. There were no surprises. Nothing new and unexpected.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I’m trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Ricky Henderson
I’m watching the rose bowl to watch Three specific players, james, toon, and monte ball. Monte ball is impressing me so far.
by lightninmcqueen on Jan 2, 2012 5:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I would love to pick up toon in the third round, if he lasts that long. Probably gone in the second
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 2, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
I would wear one of those around the house.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 2, 2012 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
I’d love tohave either James or Ball in the second, both great runners. Toon is okay. I think that other number 4 guy was better
by lightninmcqueen on Jan 2, 2012 8:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ball is probably going to be early-mid 2nd unless he runs 4.5 or below (thinking he will run a bit slower than that) and shows more athleticism than advertised.
James is probably 2nd/3rd round. Not very big, but boy is he fast.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Talking about wide receivers, do you think there’s a chance the Browns sign Vincent Jackson next year?
Again…no need for douche bags in the Braylon mold…
Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein - Joe Theismann
Vincent Jackson is a hundred times the player that Braylon is. I also don’t see how he is a douche. He’s gotten in trouble with the law, but what has he done to call him a douche?
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 2, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
Really? Can it get any worse? No way to go but UP!
Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein - Joe Theismann
There are three teams that did worse than us this year, it is possible.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
Teams that committed to rookie QBs in preseason and started rookie QBs throughout the year in the last two season:
Rams 2010 — 7-9, a good season considering where they started from.
Bengals 2011 — 9-7 (and playoffs) a season beyond expectations for sure, and must be considered a success.
Newton 2011 — 6-10, a good season considering expectations and definitely better than us.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 2, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
I know, and that would be great, but I wouldn’t get upset if we started a rookie and only won 3 games (like Payton Manning) as long as they show something.
if we get that kind of rookie QB season, we would have to be extremely unlucky, extremely poorly coached, or seriously regress on D not to win 5+ games.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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I really think the biggest problem this team had was just learning a new system. Too many times they weren’t on the same page or they were over thinking decisions that needed to be made much more quickly. I don’t have a problem with this at all. I think once they all figure it out and get on the same page they’ll automatically be playing much faster. They’ll also be playing in a system where they can target specific players to plug and play, unlike Denver and Carolina where they’re making short term gains by adapting their schemes to their players. It’s easier at first but there’s no long term gain to simplifying an offense. You could see the defense start to figure it out near the end of the year and you would expect that they would learn the new system faster than the offense. They also have more talent. I think it will be another year or two but we’ll significantly better than where we started.
If you noticed. The times when our offense looked “better” was when we had an effective running game. The running game helped keep the defense from pinning their ears back and coming full force. Our Offensive line is not good enough to handle that type of pressure, and McCoy is not comfortable enough in the new offense to handle it either.
A healthy and sane Hillis would do wonders this next year. If he does not want to get his head on straight…Let him look for greener pastures and draft a RB and keep Jackson & Ogbonnaya.
PLUS…Lets shore up that O-Line. Poor McCoy looks like he’s tap dancing out there, ready to run for his life.
If H&H have lost faith in Colt….do what it takes to get Luck or RGIII….i think both may end up special.
This just says to me you’re okay with the Browns remaining mediocre. And in two or three years, if we make the playoffs and lose, at least we’re progressing, right? This mentality just has to go if the Browns will ever be anything. He said, Carolina adapting their schemes? Have you seen the Panthers play? Cam is the real deal, he can throw the football and make all the NFL throws, plus he is a run threat. Steve Smith, who was left for dead, had the best year of his career. And they can put up points, alot of them. Why do we have to wait another 2 yrs? Didn’t the Bengals pick before us last draft and they are in the playoffs THIS yr and with a rookie QB.
Don’t get me wrong. Just tired of rebuilding year after year. We need to make that jump this year if only to an 8-8 or 9-7 season. The Bengals just proved it can be done. To his credit, Shumur has the pass defense playing great, but the run defense is weak. I’m here in NC. Watching Cam make throws is mesmorizing at times. It comes out like a bullet. The elite teams have a QB who can throw a bullet. Thats all I want for us.RG3 is a great pick who I think can finally make the difference in the AFC North.
Too bad we don’t have Harry Potter as our QB. Although if we did I would probably stop rooting for the Browns.
Honor. Courage. Commitment.
by Brownsbacker488 on Jan 2, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
Are you more a fan of Malfoy’s play?
Dawgs By Nature: Holy Joe Thomas we suck
by Adrock2099 on Jan 2, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Honor. Courage. Commitment.
by Brownsbacker488 on Jan 2, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Because I don’t know about Harry Potter characters? I suppose.
Honor. Courage. Commitment.
by Brownsbacker488 on Jan 2, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Like it or Not, We’reDoing itgoing to battle With Pat Shurmur
by jonnyphoenix on Jan 2, 2012 8:55 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I can’t stay away from this site. I’m a DBN addict. Especially when Chris posts about my all-season favorite topic.
The idea that the team didn’t quit on the coach needs to be tempered, I think. The team has a good idea that he was coming back next year. Not until the players knew that our previous coach was out, did they quit.
Shurmur seemed very excited about his offseason plan on the radio yesterday.
I haven’t heard our previous coaches really mention it before.
Hopefully it will work out.
If the team can’t hit 6 wins or more next year, I still think that there is a 25-30% chance that Lerner flips a bit and demands somebody to be fired.
4-12, 5-11, 5-11, 4-12 isn’t pretty.
P.S. The flying plastic bags got some solid cheers yesterday. Not a half stadium cheer like Touchdown Squirrel, but multi-section attention.
by tribe71 on Jan 2, 2012 8:56 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Whats’s the record before the first 4-12? 10-6 i believe….. What if we did that next year! that’s be weird
by lightninmcqueen on Jan 2, 2012 9:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sorry, but what station was that interview on? I would like to listen to it if they have it archived.
Yep, says he has the offseason squared off by the day.
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 2, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
If the team can’t hit 6 wins or more next year, I still think that there is a 25-30% chance that Lerner flips a bit and demands somebody to be fired.
I would bet that Lerner doesn’t even know this season is over.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 2, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
And what I mean by it is that Lerner is about hands-off as an owner can be.
There is no way Shurmur is going to be fired next season. The is Holmgren’s operation now.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 2, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed. Barring some critical error on Shurmur’s part, I’d say he’s got two more years to show what he can do. At least, that’s the chance he should get.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I’m trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Ricky Henderson
Aston Lerner got their asses beat by Swansea yesterday. hahahaha
by Les Fleurs Du Mal on Jan 3, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
If the team can’t hit 6 wins or more next year, I still think that there is a 25-30% chance that Lerner flips a bit and demands somebody to be fired.
Not gonna argue that one. If we go 5-11 or 4-12 in 2012, Shurmur may be at least somewhat on the hotseat.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Aren’t we all? Welcome to DBN Anonymous.
Honor. Courage. Commitment.
by Brownsbacker488 on Jan 2, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
I see a lot of people saying “don’t sign (insert major talent), he’s got a bad attitude! We need character guys.”
“Character guys” are getting us 3-6 wins a year.
1 or 2 bad apples in a locker room full of good guys are not going to kill the team, but they might win us a game or two.
The caveat with this point is make sure a talented player’s issue really isn’t their character, per se, but rather their work ethic. No GM wants to sign the next Haynesworth, who completely mails it in after he gets paid. But I can deal with the prima donna types as long as they back it up. I don’t have a problem with a player who says, “I need the ball more because I’m the best weapon you have.”
I have a problem with it when it starts making the QB question his actions on the field, they have enough to deal with without having a whiny WR in his ear bugging him.
Prima donna or not, I’d love to see Colt with his first option open sometimes, rather than having to run the Sam Bradford Checkdown Offense every play. I still don’t think it’s time for a big-time WR, but a medium-time one would be great.
rather than having to run the Sam Bradford Checkdown Offense every play
Did you consider that the offense might be designed that way?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 4, 2012 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
The locals had that conversation last year when the Rams’ O was so stagnant. From watching Bradford as well as Colt and from my admittedly limited understanding of the WCO, it looked like receiver quality was part of the issue. When Bradford was able to get his guy deep he went deep. Separation was an issue in St Louis, just like in CLE.
yeah. his best weapon was Amendola who was a slot guy who rarely went deep. Danario Alexander was the only real deep threat they had (Laurent Robinson is also somewhat of a slot guy, though a speedier one like a mike Thomas).
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I seriously doubt that offenses are built specifically to checkdown to the RB. That seems very far fetched. What makes more sense is that younger QBs check down more often.
Roethlisberger had about 14 less completions to RBs/FBs in his 2nd year while completing the same amount of passes. Drew Brees cut his completions to RBs about in half from his 2nd year starting to his 3rd year.
The idea that QBs checkdown less the more experience they get isn’t foreign and is a more logical explanation that a “checkdown offense”
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Chilly is coming – book it. How sure are we it’s a good idea that Chilly work under his old subordinate? Will Shurmur then take more responsibility for Colt? His strength is definitely in coaching up QBs.
That’s an interesting question. I wasn’t aware that Shurmur worked under Childress. But I don’t think it would be an issue. A similar situation occured in Dallas where Wade Phillips hired former Cowboys coach Dave Campo as a DB coach. That had to be weird as some of the guys on the team were around when Campo was in charge. But they seemed to do alright. As long as the former boss knows his responsibilities and his boundaries, and doesn’t overstep either of them, I imagine coaches have no problem with that sort of situation.
How close is Childress to being a done deal, though? Is he gonna be in the running for any of the vacancies that are popping up these days?
I would give Shurmur 2 more years unless it just looks awful this year. He had no offensive talent to work with this year
And is everyone giving up Colt already?
Yes, that is Spike Lee.
by TheRealSlimShady on Jan 3, 2012 2:34 PM EST reply actions
A lot of people here are done with Colt.
And Brady Quinn still sucks.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 3, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
A few of us, myself included, think Colt needs some bigger playmakers around him. That said, I’m not against drafting a QB if he looks like a franchise guy for years to come. I just think Colt deserves a full offsesason and better talent around him before saying he’s not an NFL QB.
The main reason you don’t see too many of us commenting about this still is because there are less of us now than before and the whole discussion is incredibly played out by this point. It’s not worth retreading a whole debate.
Even Doug Dieken admits Joe Thomas is the real #73
Sorry, I like Colt too, but he is not the franchise guy. I’d trade him on draft day to see if we can get at least a 3rd round pick to add an offensive or defensive lineman.
I’m not saying he’s necessarily a franchise guy. I just think we have too many holes elsewhere for us to potentially repeat the whole QB reboot again. Like I said above, if it looks like a franchise QB is available, grab him. If not, I think Colt is fine as a stop-gap QB while we improve the rest of the team. If Colt improves, lucky us. If not, our team has still improved drastically elsewhere.
Even Doug Dieken admits Joe Thomas is the real #73
He’s had 21 starts. I am in favor of starting the season with him (if we don’t get Flynn in FA) and possibly drafting a QB high. Replace him maybe if he still sucks but give him another chance. I just don’t have much hope and don’t think the FO should put all their eggs in the Colt basket.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Flynn had one great game on a great team. Can’t see hoping Cassel, I mean Flynn, is not just that.. a great backup. Earl Morrell thinks Flynn could be a starting QB. You have a chance of getting a franchise guy in the draft if we don’t blow it again, Right Tim Couch?
I think Flynn can be Cassel. I just don’t think Cassel is anything more than an above average starting QB with the right supporting cast.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
A new coach always gets a free year. Having said that I don’t think there was much that Shumur could have done much worse in his first year. The buck stops pretty much at the head coach and the product on the field, especially the offense, was terrible. And this in a year where we played some of the worst teams in the NFL.
This is how I see it. I think Shurmur took the playbook he has been working on until he makes head coach down off the shelf and blew the dust off. “Now I can do it my way!” He thought.
He ran those plays without looking at all at the current players and their abilities to execute said plays. You aren’t going to be able to completely transform your team in one year—especially with little off-season. You have to employ some transition to a new system that accounts for your current player pool and their strengths and weakness. This is where I fault Shurmur. He knew that his off-season was short, that he had players picked for and used to another system. This would have been a time to maybe modify the current system… come up with a hybrid but he did not do this. We see other coaches do this kind of thing all the time. The good ones are able to tailor their systems to the talent on the field and bring out the best in players. Shurmur did not do this at all. He coached most of the players he was given down and the result of this was obvious to all who watched the games.
Myself, I don’t think guys should be given multiple years to prove they are bad. Good players and coaches make you believers out of the gate and you can’t wait to see what they’ll do next year.
Brownsyup
by Brownsyup on Jan 3, 2012 2:54 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Shurmur ran average plays at best this year. It’s not his fault no one on the field could read defenses or catch a ball.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 3, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Actually at the start of the shortened pre-season they said the playbook was modified since most of the starters didn’t know the system and they would expand the playbook as the players became more comfortable in it.
I think there are a couple of key things that hurt us to start the season – not having a punter in the first game set a bad tone for the year, and not having Tony Pashos and Eric Steibach had Colt running for his life the first few games. It doesn’t seem like he ever really recovered from that even when the line play improved.
The buck stops pretty much at the head coach and the product on the field, especially the offense, was terrible. And this in a year where we played some of the worst teams in the NFL.
10 of the games played this year were against top 10 defenses. Only two games were against bottom 10 defenses. The weak schedule argument just doesn’t fly. Not trying to argue our offense was good, just saying…
So why did I take so much shit when I said 6 games ago there is no way Shurmur and the front office aren’t looking for a quarterback and Colt McCoy isnt the answer? Why did I take so much crap?
Because you said that and Colt is short over and over. Different perspectives aren’t bad. Repetitive statements that don’t add anything after being said the first time get annoying. At least, that’s why I thought you got pounced on whenever you said it.
Even Doug Dieken admits Joe Thomas is the real #73
by Doc's Kid on Jan 3, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I look at it that no one wanted it to be true. Was anything I said wrong? As soon as I said it, it was pounced on, just like my take on RG3 and that the Browns will not select him. I got pounced on, so when I say why I feel that way to everyone that disagrees it seems repetitive. COLT MCCOY is as I said a Ty Detmer type of quarterback and wont take this team anywhere. MOST did not want to hear it. I was penalized for saying what no one wanted to admit. He is too short and too weak of an arm to win in the NFL.
MOST did not want to hear it. I was penalized for saying what no one wanted to admit.He is too short and too weak of an arm to win in the NFL.
Every single one of your post used to consist of this. It did get annoying and you pretty much slowed down on that.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 3, 2012 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
Initially I think people disagreed, then you beat them over the head with it, then you stepped back and left it alone for awhile, then people started to agree, then you started beating them over the head with it again. It’s the internet people have short tempers and short attention spans.
They aren’t going to want to hear the same thing over and over. That’s why you should just stick it in your sig and only comment on it every 2 to 3 weeks.
Mangini apologist by default.
I’m speaking about his innate accuracy, not how well that innate accuracy is translating on the field.
Someone could talk about the weather and you would turn it into Colt sucks. A lot of people said let’s see how the rest of the season plays out, and you would respond with Colt sucks. Now the rest of the season has played out and perspectives have changed. I used to skip reading your posts because they were repetative, but now since you have more than one point to make, people won’t ignore you, and you contribute to the discussion. (From a lurker who reads almost everything on this site.)
by VolkovNB on Jan 3, 2012 7:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I agree with you now that Colt is probably not the answer, but it’s more about the way you put your point and the frequency (or repetitiveness) of it.
I didn’t completely disagree with you then and am more towards that side now, but I was just annoyed that it was like the only thing we would hear from you. Glad to talk to you about other subjects.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
So why did I take so much shit when I said 6 games ago there is no way Shurmur and the front office aren’t looking for a quarterback and Colt McCoy isnt the answer?
First of all, you’re still wrong. A broken record is bad enough. When the recording continues stubbornly spouting nonsense and claiming it to be absolute fact it makes it becomes almost unbearable.
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 3, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
Ok so you think Colt McCoy is tall enough? Does he have a strong enough arm? Does he see the field well enough? Did he move this football team? What did I miss that you see? You just dont like hearing the obvious. People had no problem over and over saying Shurmur is an idiot, he is clueless, he should not be the coach of this team. I Heard that over and over and over and still hear it constantly, but no one bitches at that. Point is the bleeding heart fans that beleive the propaganda spewed about Colt McCoy and his heart is a feel good story, but the facts are he is NOT good enough to move this team. So control yourselves about Shurmur it gets repetitive and ridiculous. He is more competent at his job than McCoy, but oh wait Colt McCoy has passion and a heart. YOU SHOULD WANT A BETTER QUARTERBACK. I dont think I am wrong when the coach would not even name him the starting quarterback of the Browns for next year over a journeyman 5’8" quarterback Seneca Wallace. Wallace blows. He is not a competent starter and for McCoy not to be named as the quarterback the team will be built around says HE FRIGGIN BLOWS, which makes me right, not wrong.
People had no problem over and over saying Shurmur is an idiot, he is clueless, he should not be the coach of this team. I Heard that over and over and over and still hear it constantly, but no one bitches at that
Yes we do.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 4, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I bitch about that a lot actually.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Point is the bleeding heart fans that beleive the propaganda spewed about Colt McCoy and his heart is a feel good story,
Or most fans wanted to give the guy a decent shot to see what we have.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 4, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
why start this? Honestly, I think you were the only person who seemed to want to start an argument with what c64 said above. I don’t completely agree, but I am not gonna argue semantics of whether or not colt is definitively the answer.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Oh, I have no plans on starting any arguments. I’d say c64 has already received what he asked for.
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 4, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Hey we are good. We all like to mix it up a bit. I am still in the Trade all we got to get LUCK. Doesn’t mean it will happen or you have to agree, I just loathe the thought of struggling with McCoy.
No worries. I think most of us around here have had to change their tone or style a bit at some point along the way, myself included. In the end we’ll all be one big screaming mob on board the same train once the Browns win the AFC Championship on their way to the Super Bowl, which is going to happen one way or another, and sooner than later.
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 5, 2012 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
I’d say
First of all, you’re still wrong.is a bit incendiary, but you may have not meant that.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
a bit incendiary
His comments have been consistently and annoyingly incendiary. My response was a rebuke, not a provocation or argument. He needed to hear it, along with the rest of the criticisms he received. His opinions aren’t the definitive truths that he presents them as.
He is the one who started this little thread by reverting to his broken record routine, not me.
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 5, 2012 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
He needed to hear it,
that’s where you and I disagree. He had taken many comments like that and worked to change his tune recently.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Yes, he had changed his tune – up until this latest outburst.
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 5, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
he has had some outbursts since, but the one you are referencing isn’t even bad enough imo to be called an “outburst”.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Whatever. Just look at the litany of responses he’s gotten. Mine is the one you’ve chosen to pick on because I’m a McCoy supporter. Go find someone else to argue with. This is ridiculous.
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 5, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
you’ve chosen to pick on because I’m a McCoy supporter.
not at all. like I believe I said above, most people didn’t react as negatively as you did.
I really don’t feel like arguing it but you really feel like just taking potshots at c64. What’s ridiculous is that you couldn’t just help yourself and had to include comments like
up until this latest outburst.
multiple times I have had comments that I felt like would end this, but you kept continuing it…and you call this ridiculous?
I’m done.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I’m done
Music to my ears.
That was my understanding.
by burntorangeandbrown on Jan 6, 2012 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
You took so much crap because you wouldn’t shut up about it. I agree with you for crying out loud and I can’t wait until you shut up.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 4, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I literally laughed out loud at your lol…what have you started?!?!?!?!?
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
You know, I’ve never once seen you type the words “in my opinion.” That may help every once in awhile.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
I know I am not perfect. Honestly, I wish Colt McCoy would prove me wrong, I would have to eat crow and we would win.
I wouldn’t push the crow on you, but you got to at least eat a nasty raven.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 4, 2012 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
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