Draft Talk Volume 1
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 25, 2012 1:56 PM EST
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PrintPlease REC this so it stays at the top.
Every year we see a huge spike in FanPosts. Please feel free to keep firing up FanPosts about all sorts of things, but if you have a short one on the draft, (1 or 2 paragraphs) this is the spot.
Not to say that this isn't great, but a lot of them are somewhat the same topic. So, a few seasons back, we decided to make a Draft Post.
Everything to do with the draft can be dumped in here.
You have a "dream draft" that you would like to show everyone? Plop it here. Like a player and want to tell everyone about? Yep, right here.
These will fill up quick, but don't worry, one of the mods will create another one when needed.
So go ahead and fire away. Draft Talk it up people.
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Nobody is talking about MIN getting in on the RG3 raffle. Say STL does take Blackmon, and MIN sells RG3…would we even be interested in Kalil? Thomas/Steinbach/Mack/RG platoon/Kalil sounds pretty solid no? i know jack about OL, so go easy on me :)
I'll gladly pay you Tuesday, for an MDP today.
Minnesota is set with Ponder they have already claimed that. Also you are right St Louis and Minnesota can make so many deals to teams that want RGIII. I dont think they will select Kalil. Kalili playes LT and we have Thomas so to move him somewhere else on the line is doubtful. Plus we have other major needs.
by champion64 on Jan 25, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Maylock actually has Riley Reiff ahead of Kalil
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 25, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting. I don’t agree, but I generally like mayock’s analysis on these things. I think Reiff has great potential though.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
- is too high to take RT.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 26, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
That was supposed to be #4 is too high to take RT. Don’t Know how 1. got in there.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 26, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
That’s because it Rt right? What I mean is, if we didn’t JT forbid, we didn’t have Him, 4 wouldn’t be too high for an Lt, because we have right handed QBs?
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Jan 28, 2012 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
If for some reason Joe Thomas erased himself from history and we never drafted him and we were playing someone who wasn’t pro bowl caliber there, yes we should have Kalil high on our draft board.
LT is like QB with less of an impact on your W-L record. They are both very valuable pieces and there aren’t many human beings alive who can play those positions. If you don’t have one, you need one.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yep pretty much. An LT is worth drafting at 4 because he protects the QB’s blind side. A RT, while still important, is considered less crucial and will be available with a lower pick. Thank Joe Thomas we have Joe Thomas.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 28, 2012 8:18 AM EST up reply actions
I wish everyday that my wife had given birth to twin boys so I could have named them Joe and Thomas.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Jan 28, 2012 9:39 AM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Rec….Recwhore
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 28, 2012 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been wondering for a while now why a team would trade to 2 instead of 3. Heck, I’ve been wondering why they wouldn’t trade into #4. I would definitely be interested in Kalil at #4. I’ve said it before, it would be like having God and Jesus Christ both on our O-Line.
It’s not that a team would trade to 2 instead of 3, it’s that the Rams might be more willing to part with their pick than the Vikings.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
DrewBuck
I like your thinking, though I have concerns about Steinbach being able to play a complete season since he is supposedly still healing from back surgery. I don’t even mind if the Browns plan to move Pinkston to RT. The Browns need to address to weak offensive line before they get passionate for a new QB or RB. I’d give you Luck, Blackmon, and Richardson together in one package – and with the offensive line we just played with, they would not get in the playoffs either. We need two new guards. And at least one new OT at least as a passable back-up. Some of this may be addressed with free agency, but there are no tackles worth taking in FA and the only OG’s worth taking are on winning teams – Ravens, Saints, and Giants. Are they willing to play for the Browns? H and H know how badly we need guards – days after the season ended the first move they made was signing 3 UFA guards (though that is putting a bandade on a spurting artery). One FA WR would be great – Jackson (Phil) / Bowe (KC) ?
My best hope for the draft is influenced by how well we can get any quality FA first in need areas – OG,WR,RB,TE,DT. THE man for me in the draft is Kendall Wright. Trade down if possible and take him 10th – 15th, switch to defense and take the best DE available at 22nd. I have hope/concern about DT – somebody isn’t stuffing the run somewhere, no matter how many tackles anybody makes. If we do successfully trade down, 36th take highest rated OG or OLB, and second 2nd rounder the highest rated player of the other position. The Browns have 2 fourth round and 2 sixth round picks. I’d like them to pool some of the late round picks to move up into the 3rd round for another quality OG, and use the two 4th round picks on another WR and either a DB or DT. My preference for the offensive line would be Thomas/Steinbach if available/Mack/Osemele or Zeitler in draft/Pinkston/Davis (TE FA Redskins). Defense I’d love to get DE Mercilus, OLB Irvin, DB Tandy. Gotta get quality FA’s first.
If we were somehow gifted with those 3 rookies, I would say this team is absolutely in contention for the playoffs. Our line really isn’t that bad, especially considering the development of Pinkston towards the end of last season.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 1, 2012 11:09 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I think we stay where we are at #4 unless we somehow some way pry Andrew Luck from the Colts. I dont see the Browns moving anywhere to select Robert Griffin III. If he is picked by the Browns it will be in the 4th over all selection. I actually dont see them picking him. On this I could be wrong. I think if Robert Griffin comes to us at the #4 pick overall we can use this as leverage against a team that wants him like a Washington or Miami. We can make a deal that we draft him and immediately trade him for their pick in the first round and other compensation (future picks), which will be cheaper for Washington or Miami than trading up to get the 2nd or 3rd pick overall. This would only happen if Griffin is not who we really want and they believe there is no one else worth a top 4 pick. This draft is going to be an organizational changer for the Browns and it ought to be a good one.
Explain why you wouldn’t go after a franchise QB? We don’t have one now! You need a QB more than any other position in the NFL today, because of the rules. A Qb with touch and accuracy, can throw deep and can evade the rush and make positive plays out of negative ones. The only way I wuld not draft him was if we get Jason Campbell. Then select Richardson at 4 or 6. Then Kendall Wright at 26. You have improved all three of the offensive skilled positions in one round.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
Campbell sucks and is probably afraid of the Browns now. And if we wanted Richardson, we could trade down.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Jan 29, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
I voted for Ratty.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Montario Hardesty, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 25, 2012 2:41 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
OK, I think I made up my mind. Trade whatever it takes to get RG3. But DO NOT give up next year’s first.
That would be ideal. But the Skins and Seabirds scare me.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 25, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely, the Skins would give away Shanahan, and their whole draft, and their top 3 player for Griffin. That begs the question, do we toy with them if Griffin falls to four if the Rams and Vikings refuse to trade?
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Jan 25, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I’d still mess with them. Get an offer, say no, make them offer more, say no, then just take Griffin.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Jan 25, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that’s really the type of front office I want. They waste their time pissing off other teams’ front office just for fun. That’s the way to build a long-term success in this league!
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 26, 2012 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
hilarious….somebody post that Heckert Hamburgler photo here
I'll gladly pay you Tuesday, for an MDP today.
Hamburglar Heckert (altermate version)
(view while making “hyuck! hyuck! hyuck!” sounds)
by mister serious on Jan 26, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
only in exchange for RG3. They’ll even steal and throw in John Harbaugh
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Jan 25, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
I think either one of these teams ends up with Flynn. Outside chance of the Raiders going after him.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 25, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
What could the Raiders even give up? They’ve got nothing left.
But there are also Flynn, possibly Kolb and Jason Campbell all out there for these teams as well.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Flynn won’t be franchised, I think they announced already they are using it on Finley. Cash is all they need.
Right. With former Packers in the front offices and coaching staffs of Oakland, Miami and Seattle, I think Flynn makes his way to one of those spots.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 25, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
Miami is gunna stick with Moore. They’re out of the discussion.
Seattle is going to play a role in this mess.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 26, 2012 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
I mean, he played alright last season. I wouldn’t hold my breath, but you never know.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
They wouldn’t be the first team to think they’ve found treasure in another team’s trash.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I don’t see how a new coaching staff would pass on a chance of bringing in one of “their” guys and rolling with Matt Moore.
But I guess I would have said the same thing about Harbaugh and Smith last season.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
I was unaware of this. You’d figure Green Bay would try to hold on to him and flip him for picks. Finley on the other hand would seem like he should get a long term deal.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Maybe the team doesn’t think Finley will agree on how much that deal should be worth.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Jason’s going to get released. SO wait only if you’re thinking about not getting RG3.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
Even better. I bet we can get him cheap also.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t want Campbell. Am I alone in this?
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 29, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Nope. I’m with you here. I don’t want some other team’s rejects at QB like we’ve had for large parts of the last 10 years.
by Legoman0721 on Jan 29, 2012 11:37 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
That would be fair if we weren’t talking about a Raiders team that handed the Bengals a fortune for a washed up crap QB after their starter went down with injury. The guy was really playing at a pretty high level before we took him out.
He was playing well, but he wasn’t playing at an elite level. He was playing well as a game manager with a very strong running game and a good defense.
by Legoman0721 on Jan 30, 2012 9:46 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Thing is, Campbells an upgrade over Seneca, So sign him for the back up spot.
"Excuse me while I ride my unicorn over to the gentleman’s club my wife doesn’t mind me visiting and doing coke off a hooker’s ass." - Henry Dawg , DBN - Dec 2011
Would rather have Colt McCoy as the back-up.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 30, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Barely and because he’s barley an upgrade, it’s a waste to bring him in
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 30, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see much to like in him.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
This. Don’t mortgage the future, but do what you can now for the best QB we can get so he can start developing.
I can’t believe so many people wouldn’t give a 3rd and 4th for RG3. That’s like saying we’re better off with Shawn Luvao and Owen Marecic than RG3.
Yeah, even with our #22 we’re not gunna find a player that is overwhelmingly better than what we could get with our #37. It’s only a couple hundred value points. Our two firsts with a third and fourth. If the Rams bite we’re golden.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 25, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
And it’s all just gambling that he MAY be a franchise QB. Luck is the only one that EVERyONE agrees is a franchise QB. So, is it worth it??? I say emphatically, no!!
No there is some consensus that they are 1 and 1A. Thats like saying Peyton Manning should be the only one to take with Steve Young available.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Totally agree. Unless you’re Mel Kiper.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Too much, much too much.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 26, 2012 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
I would like to keep those picks for some right side help for our offensive line or some help on the defensive line…then again you do have a good point….What if RG3 goes #1? I like him better than Luck….mobile throwing quarterbacks are the future of football in my opinion.. :)
I’m all for RG3 because he’s a great talent, but the rules now favor pocket QBs so much more than mobile QBs. I don’t think there’s going to be any great shift towards mobile QBs.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 8, 2012 11:57 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
yes. If we can get him for just giving up a 3rd and 4th, I would do it. I would be even happier with a 4th this year and next, but either way I would do it in a heartbeat.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Wow, surprised there are so many “no” votes on this. I’d say deal.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
Same here, I actually thought that was waaaaay to low of a price.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 25, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Me three.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 26, 2012 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
Seriously, how do people not think that would be a great trade for us?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
But he’d throw in Steven Jackson and Robert Quinn.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
He would probably want Jayme Mitchell back. No deal.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know, I would include him if we could get Vickers back in a 3-way deal.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
There is no price high enough to bring back Vickers.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 28, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Took the yes option as well of course. But it won’t happen, too low a price. More realistic #4, #37 and round 4, maybe?
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 26, 2012 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t get people either. We do know that QB is the most important position on the field, right? And RG3 is a legit franchise QB prospect, right? Wake up"no" voters. Giving up a 3rd and 4th rounder is like finding a 50% off sale at the hardware store! You don’t think. You buy!
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I’m trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Ricky Henderson
I cast a Ghostrider vote, but seriously I’ve gone back and forth on this. I think in the end I am content to go with the judgement of the FO on this. If they think RGIII is over-hyped or wouldn’t fit what they want to do, fine. If they think he’s worth trading up for, fine. The only thing that will disappoint me will be if we trade down to get a bunch of picks for so-so players.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
I am shocked Ghostrider didn’t get more votes. maybe no enough people remember him.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Unfortunately, alot of Browns fans and posters here, think we build a winner by trading our top picks for more picks of lower ranked players. So we build a scrub team that loses close games and ends up drafting in the top 8 every year. If I can only fill 2 holes with blue- chip, 5-star athletes, every year, I ’d rather do that then fill all needs with 3-star players.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
High picks are over rated and inflated. Middle to Low round picks can be underrated. If you have a competent GM scouting and running the draft you can get a lot of value by giving up high picks for lower picks.
If Greg Little can be taught to catch a ball he will be what Julio Jones was for the Falcons this year. Heckert knows what he’s doing, and he’s making the right decisions.
They’ll use a high pick if there is a glaring weakness. 2 years ago our secondary was getting torched, they picked Haden and Ward and its on its way to being a strength. Last year they thought they had a QB, they no longer think that, therefore they’ll probably fix it. I’m pretty sure they aren’t the type to reach on a pick and most thought Julio at 6 was a reach. You can get pro bowl WRs anywhere in the first round or later, like you alluded to.
I agree. I was getting at the fact that trading down can (under the right circumstances) be better than taking the higher rated player.
I hope that before the draft is over we have acquired some more picks for next years draft… I want the FO to keep thinking long term because even if we get 2 pro-bowlers in this draft we still won’t get to the SB.
If we get a QB in FA (and I’m slowly talking myself into Campbell after someone brought him up), I would love a trade down for more firsts and seconds.
Thanks….Then I would love to trade down only if Blackmon is gone.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
How about just getting to the playoffs? Get there and you can build to the SB. WE aren’t building for anything but last place in our division. You have to build to beat those teams to get anywhere. Long term? If we were in a static environment, you might be right. The Steelers aren’t staying put, neither are the Ravens or the Bengals who just drafted and made fools of H&H.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t our glaring weakness WR last year and it is still our glaring weakness. Was Julio a “reach” looking back. Heck no. He was, who they that thought he was and here we are picking around the same spot we have the last two years. Haden and Ward are classic examples of staying put and drafting the best available.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Bringing up Jones ignores the massive value we got in the trade. We partially helped our receiver problem with Little, and filled two big needs on the D-line with Taylor and Sheard. We also have another pick this year to add to that.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah we’re drafting in the same place we were last year…except now we’re also drafting with the Falcons’ picks. We have yet to even cash in on the value of that trade.
You can’t buy a bond that matures in 5 years and then complain that you just gave your money away.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
We are drafting in the same spot, but so are the Falcons…I think they are in fact drafting earlier this year IIRC
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
In that same sense how dumb to you have to be to buy a 5 year bond when you have obligations due the following year?
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 29, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Was Julio a "reach" looking back. Heck no.
Disagree, 100%
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
Really? That gets the “C’mon Man” award. You think who we got last year was better than the impact Julio Jones gave his team? Thats the thinking we’ve had since we came back. We got serviceable, not impact! You don’t get to the top or playoffs or SB with serviceable.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
What impact did Julio have on that team? Getting absolutely destroyed in the first round of the playoffs?
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
They did score 2 points in that playoff game. Without Julio Jones, that doesn’t happen.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 29, 2012 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
So with a Pro Bowl QB, RB, WR and TE, Julio Jones put up damn near the same numbers as Greg Little.
Oh, and he’s still injury prone! Plus he helped his offense to get shutout in the playoffs!
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
I missed the scoreboard again. THEY were in the playoffs and we had 5 wins. (Can you give me the last time we were IN the playoffs?) Right…He impacted the team so you could have a probowl WR, TE and RB spliting the options. You couldn’t double Roddy, if Julio is on the other side. Greg Little became one of the only options, we couldn’t run the ball.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Had no clue Julio made Ryan, Gonzalez, Turner and White who they are. Crazy. Also had no clue Julio put the team on his back and took them to losing in the first round of the playoffs. I did however, know that his stats were just basically as good as Little’s.
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 29, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
But dude, Julio Jones is a winner.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Jan 29, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
they were in the playoffs the year before. They went from 13-3 to 10-6 after getting Julio. If anything, maybe he hurt them/? obviously he didn’t, but arguing they were in the playoffs is just a stupid.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Julio would have looked like Roddy White without his teammates
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 29, 2012 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
Good to see we got the most outlandish comment of the thread out of the way.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Little only had 2 touchdowns that is not damn near the same
And that make Julio the Falcons third option and he put up better numbers in 3 less games 54 catches for like 979 and 8 touchdowns. Little was the Browns best Wr and did not get 5 Td passes.
Colt McCoy also isn’t a pro-bowl QB.
TDs are a terrible stat to judge skill players by for the most part. They’re a result of happenstance.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
how about:
Over 1000 all-purpose yds;17 more yards after the catch and almost 30 yds per game more with 7 less (3 yard) catches.
Stats are a terrible thing, since providing your team with 48 points is just happenstance.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Colt McCoy also isn’t a pro-bowl QB.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
17 more yards after the catch in a 16 game season? Are you serious with this?
Touchdowns by skill players are largely meaningless unless you are playing fantasy football. And honestly I am not sure if you are right now or not.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I think you misread my comment. Nowhere did I say Little had a better year or is a better player. All I said was TDs are a stupid stat to use to prove it.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Two words for this entire argument…supporting cast. You are the guy that screams and yells about turning the damn franchise around in one year. If you want to build a team from scratch (which is what we were) you do it through the draft. Especially now that their is a rookie cap. You only use FA to fill needs or get a guy to take you over the hump. It takes time to do this. You can’t “polish a turd” in one year.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
Great point and supports my view for a new QB in Cleveland.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
And also destroys your view that we got the short end of the Atlanta deal.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Jan 29, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As NTN mentions below, using TD catches is a horrible way to judge skill players.
Matt Forte was one of the best RB’s in the league this season, and he only had 4 TD’s. John Kuhn had 6. See the problem with that?
As for the rest of your numbers, I alluded to the fact that Julio Jones never, ever, ever saw a double team. He was never the “guy” the other team set out to stop. Sadly that was Little’s job the second half of the season.
Have to keep a semblance of context when we are doing this.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
but he is their 3rd option
and really 4th option cause they want to run the ball with turner first, get Roddy white the ball second and Ryan look to Gonzalez third.
Roddy white caught 100 balls for 1,296 yds 8 tds all them double teams aint stop them from throwing his way the most.
Gonzalez had 80 catches for 875 yds and 7 tds.
So if Jones was the #1 target he would have have greater numbers maybe like 80 catches for 1100 yds instead of just 54 balls
…exactly, he’s their 4th option. If he was better, wouldn’t they move him up the pecking order?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Abso-freaking-lutely.
Randy Moss joined a football team that had two 1,000 yard WR’s the previous season. Randy Moss went out and became the #1 WR.
Game breakers aren’t #4 options.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
exactly. Being the 4th option both helps and hurts his point. Yeah, he put up a good amount of stats for being the 4th option but he also got a lot of open looks.
Teams have to double Roddy and respect Gonzalez. They also have to respect the run in a way teams didn’t last year. He clearly faced easier coverages than Little.
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this is great. Because if Julio Jones is the #1 option, he will just put up #1 stats? he put up good stats for a 4th option, but that’s because of the match-ups he faced.
you are forgetting that as a 4th option, defenses won’t gameplan for him and double cover him like they would if he was the #1 option. If he was that as a rookie, he might put up 60 catches and 800 yards, but that would also bee because of his Pro-Bowl caliber QB.
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Good point..
Julio-56rec, 959yds, 8tds
Little-61rec, 709yds, 2tds
With the cast of having Ryan, White, Turner, and Gonzalez.
Little doesn’t have anything close to that supporting cast and came close all while we got tons of picks from ATL and 2 key DL. How is that not the better value?
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
Don’t know that the comparison is valid. The fact is Julio also had more options on his side of the ball to diminish his totals, in addition to his injury. Little was the sole focus of our offense, and his stats could have been elevated as a result.
no comparison of stats is valid. Julio had a better QB play in a more high powered offense, and the D didn’t focus him much. Little had worse QB play in an anemic offense and was the #1 target, but teams focused him.
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We got the better value in the trade because we gave away Julio Jones and got that bevy of picks.
Because of the unknowns involved we were trading likelihoods. And the likelihoods of all those picks turning into good players was better than the likelihood of Jones becoming the next Calvin Johnson or Jerry Rice. You would never know what specific players you are going to get and for future years you don’t even know what position in the draft you are getting.
Specific comparisons based on yardage, catches, and scoring aside, I think at least for the time being we know that Jones is not the next Jerry Rice and Little isn’t completely without promise. We also know Phil Taylor is a pretty good player with a lot of potential and we still have another first round pick to use. So even if you refuse my “Reggie Miller at the line” analysis based on possibility of success, we’ve already seen some of those percentages work out the way we’ve expected.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
You are out of your mind.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Jan 29, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, I missed massive value, since the Browns defense was run on at will. They were not a “terror” to anyone, we were not feared at all. We had minimal sacks. How again do you get massive value? WE got fillers. Dummerville and Von MIller was massive value. I think I said that this year would determine whether it was good or not. I don’t think I need 5 years to determine.I just look at how many ProBowls Julio is in and how many ANY other Brown beside Thomas is selected for.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Ask Rothlissberger, Pouncy and Mendenhall’s ankles if they want to play us again.
Pro Bowls means
1. You’re really good
2. You were really good
3. You’re average but play for a good team.
I’m talking about the ALL PRO first team. Not the all-pro game itself
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
please show me where he has actually been voted All-Pro.
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I just look at how many ProBowls Julio is in
As many as me?
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Jan 29, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
Atlanta gave us the farm for that pick. It was a no-brainer for any WR picked that high. If Little continues to develop he will be just as good or better than Julio. WR’s typically don’t hit their stride their first year.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
We get RG3 and keep the 22? I’m in.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
Definitely!
I’m in too. Unfortunately, you’re on mind-altering drugs if you think the 4th overall, 3rd round pick and 4th round pick is all it would take to move up.
We’re talking both 1st rounders and the second rounder…plus more possibly. The Rams can get a ton for that pick. We’re only moving up two spots, but a lot of teams may be selling the farm for RG3
I dunno, the Rams can still get either Kalil or Blackmon and teams don’t use the trade value chart. The trade value chart values higher picks way too much, especially top 3 and top 5. There is no way the difference between 2 and 4 is worth the 20th overall pick, which is what it is on the chart.
gms know this, and they don’t use it. It’s not going to take those picks at all. The Trade Value chart says at the worst, it would be both firsts.
The more risk the team takes and the farther they have to move, the more value the pick needs to be pried away. This is low movement, low value.
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If we trade up to the Rams’ spot, it’s like free money for them. They can still get a guy they want, and gain picks. I doubt the price for us to move up will be all that steep.
by Legoman0721 on Jan 26, 2012 11:38 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I’d rather trade RGIII at the #4 spot move back to no farther than the 6-12 area. Get the extra impact players we need and if McCoy still can’t get it done with “REAL” weapons added to the offense, go with Murray (Georgia QB) in next years draft.
"Excuse me while I ride my unicorn over to the gentleman’s club my wife doesn’t mind me visiting and doing coke off a hooker’s ass." - Henry Dawg , DBN - Dec 2011
It’s an awfully big assumption you’re making that we would be in position to get any QB in next year’s draft.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
And that Murray would be worth getting.
by Legoman0721 on Jan 30, 2012 11:03 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Yeah, I haven’t seen anything that make me believe that Murray will be legit.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 30, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
same can be said for RGIII
"Excuse me while I ride my unicorn over to the gentleman’s club my wife doesn’t mind me visiting and doing coke off a hooker’s ass." - Henry Dawg , DBN - Dec 2011
Murray has talent, but watching him, leaves me wanting more.
I see the tools, but I don’t see domination against good competition that I see against the Middle Tennessee’s.
RG3 played well against good teams (even though his first half against Okie State was probably his worst).
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 31, 2012 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
That Oklahoma defense is going to have a few NFL players on it.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
That throw to beat Oklahoma, was one of the best throws I have seen from a college QB.
And for all the people that continue to claim that RG3 is a “runner”, watch the play. He starts rolling to his left and looks to have plenty of room to pick up the first down and stop the clock. The first down would have put them in FG range, in a game in which a FG would have won it.
Instead, he stops, throws a rocket across his body. The throw is great in it’s own right. It’s right over the top of the CB and away from the Safety, leading the WR to the only corner of the endzone that was left open.
I don’t see how someone can watch this kid and not get excited.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 31, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
I mean Baylor definitely set a lot of his highlights up with PA, specifically that inverted veer fake—which involves him running.
But you can’t watch him throw a few of those balls and now just say “wow”. And if you want to watch big plays set up off of play action, you can also put on Luck’s film.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
That vid you posted got me watching all the other vids that I’ve seen before. Dude is amazing.
by Brownie's Year on Feb 1, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
I love everything about him. He could potentially be a franchise changing player and just what the Browns need to end this depressing misery.
The thing I really like about him is that he really seems to bring everyone around him to his level.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
I’m tired of moving back for more players. We would be particularly negligent to move away from impact players like Griffin or Blackmon if either are available at #4. Impact players come from the first 5. Only trade down if both are gone and we can move Kalil or Richardson.
I’m also tired of saying the same darn thing on here. I think I’ll copy the above into a Word document and just paste from now on.
/Rant off
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 31, 2012 5:14 AM EST up reply actions
I’m down for anything that makes this team better without mortgaging much. Last year we were nine positions from being “decent”. This year we are 5 positions from being “good”.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 25, 2012 6:42 PM EST reply actions
I think that the hype is true on RGIII but then i dont think that drafting him and not having play makers around him is going to help or make the Browns anymore productive then last year. My so called “dream draft” is the Rams trading with Washington and Blackmon falling in the Browns lap. My first 4 round picks: Blackmon at #4, trade up with next years 2nd round pick with Dallas to #14 draft Richardson, #37 NICK FOLES QB Arizona, 3rd round Ricky Wagner OT Wisconson, 4th round(two picks) Nico Johnson OLB Alabama and Devin Taylor DE South Carolina. Another option in round 3 would to grabe a DB to put across from Haden.
Hate it, love it, or whatever you want
Hate isn’t a strong enough word to express my hate for giving up a 2nd rounder to move up for Richardson.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Jan 25, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I said no, mainly b/c I’d like us to sit and get blackmon to fall to us. If blackmon is gone (I think STL takes him) that means Minny is the only team that will trade, and honestly, unless someone makes a stupid trade and gives them two firsts or something ( in which case I don’t want the browns to trump it) They should take Kalil (new QB- plus really shaky O-line screams “hey, lets get our franchise Left Tackle”) Therefore, Browns get RGIII at four anyways. If someone trades w/ STL, then Blackmon falls to us at 4. I’m not in the Colt McCoy camp, but we need offensive playmakers, so either Blackmon or RGIII would be great for us. If someone does give up the house for Griffin, then trade back again (someone will want Kalil if we don’t) and get Reiff, MArtin, or Coples (A RT to continue solidfying the line, or more D-line help and another rusher across from Sheard)
Just say NOOOO! to Kalil or Richardson at pick 4. To high for a RT or RB. I’ve said this ad nauseum but it’s so important I’m going to say it again.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
Don’t worry, most of us agree with you 100%. I don’t think you’ll have to worry about Holmkertmur picking either of those two.
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
That’s the point. I am very worried about H&H picking one of those two.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 26, 2012 5:31 AM EST up reply actions
Trade Kalil for more first rounders.
"The tragedy of life is not that man loses, but that he almost wins."
Do you mean trade down? We should not select him @4 and subsequently expect to trade him for extra picks. I doubt that would work for us.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 27, 2012 8:20 AM EST up reply actions
Someone with two SBN identities could easily support a third, couldn’t they Golan?
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Jan 27, 2012 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
So, here’s a subject we haven’t really touched between all the lively debate about RG3: who do you want with our second rounder? I’d be pumped for either Mohamed Sanu or Andre Branch, depending on who we’ve already taken.
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
Depends on what we do with #22. 22 and 37 should be a combination of a WR and a DE or LB.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I’m trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Ricky Henderson
I may be alone in this but I think we need a pass rushing OLB even more than a DE @37. Number. 22 should be the fastest WR left, to take advantage of the big arm we would now have. Don’t know of specific players though.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 26, 2012 5:39 AM EST up reply actions
Our defense isn’t built on pass rushing LBs, we use our line to get to the QB.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
Still, wouldn’t it be nive to have Von Miller?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
YES
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 27, 2012 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
That’s kind of what I was thinking. Any front 7 can use a great pass rushing OLB. Besides, how long do we stay in the base 4-3?
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 27, 2012 8:24 AM EST up reply actions
I think any front 7 can use a pass rushing OLB. How long do we spend in the base 4-3 anyway? Weird triple post, sorry.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 27, 2012 8:33 AM EST up reply actions
Really??!!!…How many sacks did we have last year? They are not getting to anyone. The top teams have a pass rushing LB. Are you okay with mediocrity? I’m not.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
They have pass rushing LBs because they run 3-4. Most 4-3 schemes count on the DEs to rush the passer exclusively and then you can blitz with a LB, S or CB.
I’m okay with a DE, athletic enough to be able to play olb. Gives the defense alot more options.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
You completely missed my point. My point wasn’t that the Browns do a great job getting to the QB, it was that in this scheme the linemen are supposed to be the ones doing it.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with this assessment. WR/RB at 22. I’d rather get my receiver in FA with Desean Jackson available to be a deep threat. Bowe and Meachum (great around the red zone)could be had at less, but get Desean, who is young and fast. Opens options for DE/OLB at 22 and OT at 37. Now we’ve improved WR corp,defensive and pass rush and taken care of OL with topline players.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
That would be awsome, but its also hard to do.
1) Let’s face it, Cleveland isn’t the nicest city to live in compared to other NFL teams locale
2) We are not a playoff contender year in and year out. These guys will want that
3) You have to overcompensate for 1 & 2 above by throwing more $ their direction
Its nice to think that we could land any of these guys. I would be ecstatic, but it comes with a price until we can start getting more competitive.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
It’s the lame answer but BPA. Would love for it to be DLine.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
We saw how second round Clemson DL did in last years draft…
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 27, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
So by that logic we shouldn’t take Barkley next year because Sanchez sucks.
Clemson Tigers 2011 ACC Champions
And Leinart and Cassel…
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 28, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
Note: It was a joke in the first place Em.
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 28, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
I think there should be a sort of unwritten preface to all draft pick related questions that states “Of course we all would like the BPA, but just for the hell of it…” or maybe something at the end like “…assuming that the aforementioned players are the BPA.” Because we all obviously hope that the GM just picks whoever he thinks is the best, but it’s not very fun to talk about.
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
Well, if you take away my crutch.
I would love a WR to stretch the field. I would love an OLB that could match up with TE’s and could cut off the corners on running plays, but a first round pick on an OLB is a waste.
My dream choice would be a pass rushing defensive end. I think Ingram goes way before we pick, and I don’t see many other DE’s that I would use a first rounder on.
So, if I had to list in order of my positions of want/need: DE, WR, OT, FS, CB and DT (Yes DT, you can never have enough defensive lineman).
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 28, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
mercilus
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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What about Quinton Coples with our 4th?
That would be a line to talk about. And a change from the RG3/ Blackmon debate.
....just need a guy called Byner to play RT...
I’d take him in the right situation. Also want to see his combine numbers. I want that guy we pick to be a freak of nature.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
As in if we trade down down a bit. Top 15 sure, but not at #4.
by Brownie's Year on Feb 5, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
We wouldn’t be able to move far and still get him. If Kalil is on the board for some reason, people would want to trade up. But it would have to be one of 1-3 teams to think we’ll be able to get Coples and also trade down.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Coples could be a freak or quite a bust depending on what caused his senior year slowdown.
Then again we havent landed one of my draft crushes since JT. Ive wanted Eric Berry, Aaron Curry (oops) and AJ Green since then.
....just need a guy called Byner to play RT...
At #4 the ideal situation is Skins jump to #2 and take RG3 leaving Blackmon for the Browns. At #22 grab OLB or DE. With 2nd round pick would be nice if Tannihill falls that far, if not take a RB.
If we don’t get RG3 or Luck, I don’t want a QB. I’m tired of projects, and Tannehill seems like more of a project than the other two.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
Absolutely. We already have a “project”.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 27, 2012 8:27 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm. posting went a little haywire. Just wanted to agree with this and say we already have a “project”.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 27, 2012 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
tannehill has a much higher ceiling than McCoy. He is Big, Strong, athletic, tough, ingtelligent, with good arm. I agree he is a project, but so are the browns
Some people believe that Tannehill will be a top 10 pick.
I don’t think he will get that high, but I think he will be an easy first rounder. Keep an eye on Miami if they lose out on Flynn.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
We all saw what happened to Ponder last year.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I guess Ponder went up because he was really good during Senior Bowl practices. Tannehill may not even make the combine with a busted foot. I think he will be first rnd because of need but he’s going to have a hard time proving he’s worth it.
You never know, it could benefit him. How many times have we seen a QB get some steam as a prospect, then completely skunk a workout and tumble back down.
Just from watching his college tape, I don’t want Tannehill, I don’t care how his workouts go.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 28, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
No Colt. You have to bring in a better QB. Not Flynn either. Jason Campbell will be available…Kyle Orton too…lol
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
No on Orton, Yes on Campbell, I liked him out of college and think he’s on the rise now. I think he’s had a new OC every year in the pros so he’s seen a lot.
I was just joking on Orton…Jason makes sense, even with our no FA policy.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Yes on Campbell
We weren’t interested in Campbell two years ago when we were in a way worse QB situation so I doubt we’d be interested in him today.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 29, 2012 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt Mangini was the guy who made the decision to pursue Jake Delhomme.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 29, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
Why is everybody against Colt. He took Texas to #1 in ‘08 and ’09 but couldn’t win due to injury in the final game. Holds record in total TD’s thrown by a quarterback. I think he’ll do just fine with weapons around him and good offensive line.
I am pretty sure he broke the record of Colt Brennan.
I also posted something recently of how college success winning-wise does not translate at all. manning’s did, but he is an outlier.
Here are some of the other winningest QBs.
Dan Lefevour
Leinart
David Greene
John Rauch
Rick Leach
Eric Crouch
Ken Dorsey
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I haven’t been on the Tannehill train at all. I like his skills, but he didn’t look that good in college and his rising only started when Barkley and Jones stayed in school. I just think he is a de facto 1st rounder because more than 2 teams will take a QB in the 1st round and he is the next best prospect.
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Follow @BRoss2013
@Sims. Heckart didnt stockpile picks just to give them away by trading up 2 spots on a gamble. No way this happens. The Browns have way too many needs.
Heckart didnt stockpile picks just to give them away by trading up 2 spots
This is false, he absolutely may have traded exactly for that reason for all we know. They’re picks, they’ll use them the best way possible.
by HenryDawg on Jan 26, 2012 8:19 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
He traded down for picks because he is trying to build a team with quality depth at all positions. The browns were a complete mess when Heckart took over the draft. The Browns went from the oldest and one of the worst teams to one of the younger teams in the NFL, and the growing pains show, but the lack of depth shows. He has done a remarkable job in a short period of time. Within a couple of years they will be solid for years to come, but they still need more quality depth and this is done by holding on to your picks and not shooting your load on one player.
by 27BUCKEYE27 on Jan 26, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
That’s fine, you get depth by drafting well throughout the whole draft and using FA smartly. One or two picks is not going to make that much of a difference in the long run vs. a career franchise QB.
Its alot easier to hit on first and second round choices than 5th and 6th rd choices. Those one or two picks are way more vauable and Those one or two picks early picks equal at least a half dozen of late round choices if not more depending on position of the round.
I said this in another thread already. But, Heckert traded down to acquire extra picks this year to improve our team. If he thinks that trading that extra first rounder to move up to draft a guy that will immensely improve our team, then mission accomplished.
What you just said is so obvious, it’s amazing it needs to be said. But it did.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 29, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I feel like I have to copy and paste this in almost every thread up until the draft is over. People think we got this extra first rounder so we can add some more depth, or an extra player this year. This could be true, but the point is, we made the trade with the overall idea that it would help to improve our team in this years draft.
Franchise QB>>Quality depth and Heckert knows this.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Heckert traded those picks last year for a shot at Luck this year. If Griffen falls to us at 4, Heckert will take him. I don’t think they are going to move up unless it is for Andrew Luck.
Yes im a troll. Yes I hate everyone. Yes I like Colt McCoy. Yes Im 4 years old. Yes I get butt hurt. Deal with it.
thats total bs. Heckart was expecting a lot better record which would not have
by 27BUCKEYE27 on Jan 26, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
H&H were primed and ready to fire on Luck this year. The Colts completely messed up any plans H&H would have had to grab Luck. I can’t prove that was going to happen, but you cannot disprove it either. Even with a better record, H&H would still have a lot of firepower to pull off a trade for Luck.
Yes im a troll. Yes I hate everyone. Yes I like Colt McCoy. Yes Im 4 years old. Yes I get butt hurt. Deal with it.
How can you possibly say they were primed to take Luck this year when at the start they didnt know much about what McCoy could do? With a better record they would have to give sell the farm to move to the #1 slot. No way Heckart was thinking about Luck when he traded down last year. He was thinking about how many different positions the Browns needed help at and couldnt pass up the deal because of the # of Quality picks they got for the spot.
Clearly you are Heckert/mooncamping and are saying Heckart to throw everyone off. It’s only a matter of time before you advocate using all those picks on fullbacks.
I thought Steinbach was a FB. Mack too, or was he a NT?
I should have made my screen name DerekAndersonIsMyBrother
Steinbach was a C, Mack was a NT
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 27, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
Everyone is a fullback.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 27, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Needs picture of all fullback offense.
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 28, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We’ll have to see who we draft this year to see if it was a good deal. Right now, to me we’re 50/50 on the deal. Especially if Julio gets even better and we get the output we got last year for our top two picks.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Especially if Julio gets even better and we get the output we got last year for our top two picks.
I don’t see why you would assume Julio gets better but not our guys.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Because Julio is better than our guys?
As evident by being top 10, and flat out dominating in games.
While Little has one of the target/catch ratios in the league, all while compiling garbage time stats off cheap crossing routes
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 29, 2012 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
You are always crapping on McCoy because his accuracy sucks, then turn around and crap on Little because his catch rate was low.
Which one is it?
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it’s both and they are independent of each other, OBVIOUSLY!
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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What is your excuse for Little gonna be when he improves and looks really good when having a competent QB throwing him the ball? “oh, he sucks, but the QB makes him good and they just let him get yards”.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Because Julio is better than our guys?
How good they are now has nothing to do with their ability to improve.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
No, you don’t.
When you trade for picks, you are trading for a % chance of a guy being good.
That chance could be as high as Mark Price’s free throw percentage, but Mark Price still missed sometimes. That doesn’t mean putting him on the line was a bad idea. First round picks work out at a really good rate, so getting extra ones is a good idea. Just because you miss sometimes doesn’t mean you made the wrong choice.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Jan 29, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think they are going to move up unless it is for Andrew Luck.
So they would take Griffin at 4, trade up for Luck at 1, but they wouldn’t even consider trading up for RG3 at 2 if it took it? I just don’t see it.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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A team that’s comprised of only depth players will be consistently 7-9 or 8-8. Teams with a superstar QB go 12-4 or 13-3 and win Super Bowls. I’m not saying depth isn’t important, it certainly is, but at some point you have to add difference makers. With this many picks to work with, now is the time to do it.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
One Question for you all, was RG3 on your top 2012 QB Draft list after the 2011 NFL Draft? Where you convinced that RG3 was a franchise QB back in April of 2011? We all know Andrew Luck was being highly touted back then. RG3 was spoken about, but definitely wasn’t considered a top 10 pick. RG3 is getting serious hype after his heisman winning year. Back in April 2011, do you think the H&H were considering RG3 or much less heard of him? H&H moved down for value last year, but you can’t convince me they were not licking their chops for a shot at Luck in the 2012 NFL draft when Atlanta called. They knew what they were doing. They will stand pat at pick 4. If RG3 falls to them, they grab him or trade the pick. I have serious doubts that H&H will give up 2 first rounders + additional picks to move up and grab RG3.
Yes im a troll. Yes I hate everyone. Yes I like Colt McCoy. Yes Im 4 years old. Yes I get butt hurt. Deal with it.
First of all, I’m not a draftnik, so I don’t really keep up with who the big prospects will be for the next season. I just don’t give a shit. Once a player is drafted by the Browns, he’s a Brownie and I love him. But based on the fact that most experts consider RG3 a top 5 pick, why shouldn’t I also consider him one?
We need a QB, that much is clear. We have an opportunity to get one of the 2 best coming out this year, so we should go for it.
Also, why does it even matter if RG3 wasn’t at the top of draft lists last year? He had a fantastic season, won the Heisman, and has shown the experts enough to fall in love with him. Where is the sense in ignoring his most recent season? John Travolta was a B-list actor that was best known as Vinnie Barbarino; then he was cast in Pulp Fiction. Should producers/directors have ignored his performance in Pulp Fiction and refused to cast him in any further movies? (Some of his roles may suggest they should have, but you get my point).
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
He had decent stats in his other 2 starting seasons (his 1st and 3rd years in college). The fact that none of us heard of him means absolutely nothing. If you read draft guys they projected him as 2nd rounded last year so his eye popping numbers, plus all we know about his intelligence, work ethic and incredible athletic talent are more than enough to move him up. The guy went 5 weeks and threw more TDs than incompletes. You can say whatever you want about systems and shotguns but you just can’t do that if you’re not accurate and confident.
Whether or not he was on the top is irrelevant. Not ever elite QB prospect is projected top 5 overall before the year starts. I still thought he was very possibly a first rounder. Cam Newton is an example of a guy who flew up draft boards and there is nothing inherently wrong with drafting that guy. Newton looked great last year.
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You guys misinterpret what I am saying. I didn’t say RG3 shouldn’t be the Browns pick and that he was not a franchise QB. I am stating that H&H traded the Brown’s picks last year with an eye on Andrew Luck this year. RG3 was never in the plans and in my opinion the Browns will not trade up to grab him. I did read an article in the Canton (Repository?) paper today that inside sources (no names given of course) state the Browns are not looking to move up to grab RG3 and want to stay put at #4. Another question for you all, if it takes our 2 first rounders to move up to #2, why not put our 2013 1st with it and try to move to the #1 pick? Who would you rather have behind center, Andrew Luck or RG3? My opinion doesn’t mean squat here on DBN, but I would hands down without question want Andrew Luck with that pick instead of RG3
Yes im a troll. Yes I hate everyone. Yes I like Colt McCoy. Yes Im 4 years old. Yes I get butt hurt. Deal with it.
I am stating that H&H traded the Brown’s picks last year with an eye on Andrew Luck this year. RG3 was never in the plans and in my opinion the Browns will not trade up to grab him.
I agree with your point of H&H not targeting RG3 last April. But I do think they were gathering ammo in case they needed a QB, whether it was Luck, Barkley, Jones, etc, doesn’t matter.
I did read an article in the Canton (Repository?) paper today that inside sources (no names given of course) state the Browns are not looking to move up to grab RG3 and want to stay put at #4.
Good. I can guarantee you that source was from the Browns. The team uses the media to get out what they want, when they want. Trust me, at some point in time, you will read an article about the Browns loving/liking a certain prospect that we have no intention of drafting. The more crap that is out there, the better off we are.
Who would you rather have behind center, Andrew Luck or RG3? My opinion doesn’t mean squat here on DBN, but I would hands down without question want Andrew Luck with that pick instead of RG3
Myself? All things being equal, I would take RG3. I think he has a higher ceiling, but a much, much lower floor. Luck will be better right away, but I like to gamble.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 28, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Why does everyone keep forgetting that he was in the spread and a light clicked on in college? McCoy had that light click on earlier in college (set records) and as of yet it hasn’t translated to the NFL. Where’s the guarantee? What do we know the FO doesn’t know? Is it possible that the experts have no one else to serve up on a platter this year? I can’t buy this much hype and I would be unhappy at anything taking away picks.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 28, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
there are a lot of things RG3 can do I have seen that Colt doesn’t do anywhere as well (escape the pocket, get the ball out fairly quick, touch on his throws, accuracy deep, etc…)
I also think for all the “leader” and “tough” talks about Colt, RG3 has the same things in that category going for him.
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That’s a solid case….except for escaping the pocket…he did this all year.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 28, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
he did, but only because he was holding on to the ball 5+ seconds. His actual ability of escaping is much better.
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Where’s the guaranteeeee? No extra picks….
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 28, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
This is no guarantee with anything. But I have already seen Colt not be able to do these things.
So if your question is what lottery ticket do I want, the one I know is a loser or the one who could be a winner, I take the unknown.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 28, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
I love your stuff (I agree with some things you say, rec others) and i’m not going to jeopardize our already fragile relationship. And, your post just there was pretty awesome from a depth standpoint. But we know where each other stand on QB. I like them both…you only like one.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 28, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t realize our relationship was shaky.
Just when I finally open my heart….
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 28, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You know it was from the start…..;-)
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 28, 2012 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Where’s the guaranteeeee?
Death and taxes. You don’t draft guarantees because they don’t exist.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 29, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Buuuuuuuhhh
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 29, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting comment golan.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 30, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
lol
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 30, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
Ask Phil Taylor what he thought of Griffin as a freshman, he knew he would be a star. Griffin had good stats his prior 2 years starting and incredible stats his last year. He played at Baylor which is why you never heard of him.
I know bud, just saying there is no guarantee. I would like to see if he’s the real deal. I have been with this majority since the start though. We need 5 positions up front and depth….I just don’t want to sacrifice picks.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 28, 2012 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Depth is what you use FA for. Lets not make it a dirty word. Drew Brees was a FA once. Good management does their homework and get the right pieces. see former Browns coach…Belichek
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
Drew Brees was a FA once.
I propose we ban any further comparisons of any player not named Drew Brees to Drew Brees. Drew Brees is awesome and is my favorite QB in the league who I would take over any other QB, but Drew Brees is the exception to just about every rule when it comes to QBs.
Most people compare other QBs to Brees to show that some defect in that player’s profile is not a big deal, not that that player is, you know, as good as Drew Brees. It’s really just insulting to Brees in the end.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 29, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Umm, he was just using Drew Brees as an example that free agency can be a force for good if used properly. He wasn’t trying to compare Brees to Coly/Flynn or anything.
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
he was just using Drew Brees as an example that free agency can be a force for good if used properly.
Once again, Drew Brees is the exception to this rule. Off the top of my head I can’t think of another good team who’s QB was ever a free agent.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
He wasn’t trying to prove Jason Campbell was the next Drew Brees, either. I know we have an intense hatred of people mentioning Brees due to the constant Colt comparisons, but he was only trying to say this:
Depth is what you use FA for. Lets not make it a dirty word.
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
But the line about Drew Brees is totally irrelevant to that point, that’s what we’re saying.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with this about Brees. I’d also include Brady in any talk about QBs (late round gems, guys who succeeded while not starting until their senior year, etc…)
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Ask Phil Taylor what he thought of Griffin as a freshman
Yeah, nothing against the guy, but I could give two sh*ts what Phil Taylor thinks — we don’t pay him to scout players.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 29, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
The only thing I would be interested in hearing from Taylor is how RG3 acted in the locker room, around team mates, etc.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
I think its a valuable perspective to have on any player. A guy might be able to fake his way through interviews, but he’s going to have a harder time fooling his teammates about his true character.
by Legoman0721 on Jan 30, 2012 1:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
There is never a guarantee. Your draft pick never gets returned if you don’t like a guy 3 years into his career. “Played in a spread” doesn’t mean jack shit. I’ve been saying it over and over. Players from “the” spread offense (which doesn’t exist, by the way) become good NFL players all the time.
You draft the player based on the skills that you see on film and you take his stats in context. Throwing for 5,000 yards in and of itself doesn’t make a good NFL prospect. You want to see accuracy, you want to see “NFL throws”, you want to see arm strength. Measurables help. “Intangible” things help. In the end, the guy might work out and he might not. Even Luck isn’t a sure thing.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
But you have to risk something, sometime.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
You are risking something every time.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
That is my point exactly. Besides Luck, I do not see a QB in “this upcoming draft” that has all of the immeasurables that were mentioned. I do like what I see from the QB’s coming up next year from the SEC and a couple other conferences. I’m not that big on Landry Jones either. I’ve watched a ton of Big 12 football and its just some nagging thing that says to me theres something about these QB’s That I’m not sold on…
SEC QB’s see very strong defenses on a consistant basis, so these QB’s stats are more believable.
"Excuse me while I ride my unicorn over to the gentleman’s club my wife doesn’t mind me visiting and doing coke off a hooker’s ass." - Henry Dawg , DBN - Dec 2011
What immeasurables does Griffin not have?
Also, once again, you should never, ever, assume that what you think about next year’s draft will be true in 12 months.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
I am stating that H&H traded the Brown’s picks last year with an eye on Andrew Luck this year.
I don’t think they traded down with the falcons with any thoughts about 2012.
and how is it misinterpreting your point when you say
One Question for you all, was RG3 on your top 2012 QB Draft list after the 2011 NFL Draft? Where you convinced that RG3 was a franchise QB back in April of 2011? We all know Andrew Luck was being highly touted back then. RG3 was spoken about, but definitely wasn’t considered a top 10 pick. RG3 is getting serious hype after his heisman winning year. Back in April 2011, do you think the H&H were considering RG3 or much less heard of him?
which is 90% questioning why they would want RG3 that high.
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You can’t tell me it did not cross the H&H teams mind in the 2011 draft when the Falcons came calling (or soon after the deal was made) that they now had ammo to pursue a QB (aka Luck) in this years draft.
Yes im a troll. Yes I hate everyone. Yes I like Colt McCoy. Yes Im 4 years old. Yes I get butt hurt. Deal with it.
I think that is exactly what they were thinking.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 28, 2012 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
they certainly had getting the possibility of getting a QB with extra picks in mind when he made the trade. I just don’t think he was definitively thinking about Luck
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I still don’t think they have the ammo to pursue Luck.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Probably not now. The Colts losing Peyton for the year really messed up any strategy the Browns would have had at grabbing Luck. It just sucks that Indy will end up having a shot at possibly the next Peyton Manning/John Elway when they have had a decade plus success with a 1st ballot HOFer in Peyton Manning.
Yes im a troll. Yes I hate everyone. Yes I like Colt McCoy. Yes Im 4 years old. Yes I get butt hurt. Deal with it.
Why do the same folks who lament not getting Luck also not want to get Griffin, either at 4 or trade a couple of picks? Griffin has all the tangibles and intangibles of Luck, he just played in a spread and as Rufio has pointed out, that’s not as big of a deal as people make it.
My new official line is “whatever makes this team better”. Sticking by that premise, I don’t think anyone here won’t be happy about something on draft day. The problem is giving away picks when we aren’t deep enough to be competitive.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 29, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Why do you put depth in front of talent? What’s the point of having 53 average, interchangeable players (e.g. Colt McCoy and Seneca Wallace). How do you know giving up picks won’t make us better, like maybe by getting us a better QB?
I don’t know anything for sure about what the FO will do. They are building through the draft. I’m not with the pundits that think the McCoy era is over. I can be the world’s biggest dick sometimes but I can also eat my crow when it’s served up to me. I think they will stick with McCoy for now if i’m wrong, well, then i’m wrong.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 29, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
QB makes your offensive depth look better…and then you can fill the D for depth.
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I would say Luck has slightly better tangibles and intangibles. He’s slower (but just about everyone is slower than RG) but bigger, thicker, probably stronger, and he’s very accurate. Luck has already demonstrated the ability to change plays at the line, to read defenses, and to read the kinds of defenses he’ll see against pro-style sets.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I agree, but is it a big enough spread to that you would instantly trade potentially 3 1s and 2 2s for Luck vs. trading our 2 1s and a 2 this year alone?
I’m just throwing out the least attractive trade scenarios.
No, I wouldn’t trade our first two rounds for the next two years for Luck. I also wouldn’t trade this year’s first two rounds for RG3 at #2 overall. I don’t think. I would maybe do both firsts and next year’s second.
Regardless, I would definitely trade more picks for Luck than for RG3.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Luck is a consensus among scouts, regarded as one of the best bets to be a great QB coming out of college in awhile.
That’s fine, agreed, but I’m talking about the difference in what it would take to trade up to get either. Is the difference worth selling out 2 drafts worth? I doubt it.
The most sure-fire QB since Manning. That is an impressive accolade.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 30, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
That kind of thing is exactly why you don’t try to plan a year out for one player.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
exactly
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It will probably take at least our first 3 rounds this year, plus a 2013 pick
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Your opinion is no less valid than ours, all of us whose opinions don’t mean squat to what the FO decides to do.
I wouldn’t have a problem with throwing in an extra #1 next year for Luck or trading both firsts this year for Griffin. As long as we’re trying to get a top 10 QB I don’t care what we do (and if they think Colt can be one, then I’m fine with that too).
Maybe the following can lend some insights?
*Side note, my laziness and busyness have been utterly pushed aside and the belief that sleeping soundly for 3 months really isn’t all THAT important has set in.
Team Defense rankings (Total D) Baylor opponents in 2011:
TCU- 32nd
S. Austin- FCS (not ranked)
Rice- #111
Kansas St.- #74
Iowa St.- #99
Texas A&M- #66
Oklahoma St.- #107
Missouri- #61
Kansas- #120
Oklahoma- #62
Texas Tech- #115
Texas- #14 (Only Big 12 team in top 30)
Washington- #94
By comparison, here’s how a few other conferences stacked up in total defenses ranked 1-30.
SEC- 8 teams
ACC- 3
Big East- 3
Big Ten- 6
PAC 12- 3
I also looked quickly (at just CBS sports) for the draft prospect player rankings by defensive position. These are position rankings, not overall rankings. I looked for Baylor opponents’ players who ranked inside the top 10 at their position or, if none, the nearest available. Obviously different sites will rank players differently so it’d be more thorough to look at an average ranking across several, but, the operative word here is l-a-z-y.
Player draft rankings at position, Baylor opponents:
CB- #10 (L. Johnson, Iowa St)
DE- #21 (S. Solomon, Rice)
DT- #11 (K. Randall, Texas)
FS- #1 (M. Martin, OK St), #8 (T. Hartman, KSU), #13 (B. Gideon, Texas)
ILB- #14 (G. Williams, Texas A&M)
OLB- #6, (R. Lewis, OU), #10 (T. Lewis, OU), #13 (K. Robinson Texas)
SS- #11 (J. Thomas, OK St)
Exactly zero of these players is considered 1st round talent and only a few are 2nd rounders.
In and of itself, this info is not that revealing or definitive. While it’s obvious RGIII is an excellent football player; I have to say that when I asked these two questions and got these results it brought a little reality crashing in. This year he didn’t face any Joe Haden type corners, nor Von Miller type LBs, or Eric Berry type safeties, or Suh caliber DLs.
He probably would still have had a fantastic year in 2011, even if every team he played against had an elite talent such as these, but Heisman trophy? Maybe he got a little bit of a bump from a weak defensive opposition? Has his mettle really been tested by other, equally freakazoid talent?
The next questions I want to answer are how he’s performed in various situations and coverages… press man, zone, blitzes, etc. but that’s going to take some time… hint hint.
by Mal Reynolds on Jan 28, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
I actually looked some of this up too when I made a devil’s advocate post for Keenum over Luck for the Heisman on a different site.
You can’t look at RG3s opponents and then go and say ‘oh, well the PAC-10 had 3 opponents in the top 30’. I 99.99% sure that Luck only played 2 of those at the most.
Luck’s SoS based on total D and passing was not significantly better than Keenums and I am guessing it was not significantly better than RG3s because his looks about as difficult as Keenum’s, maybe slightly harder.
You also can’t look at individual players…especially since you don’t include players that Luck faced where you probably wouldn’t find a ton of first round defenders. most of those guys are from the SEC this year or the ACC (in the case of Chase minnifield) or the Big 10 (like the DT from msu)
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Why does everyone think Chase Minnifield is some lockdown, first round CB?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
It’s the unreasonable fantasy of having generations of players play in Cleveland.
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 29, 2012 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
COMe on,, WE NEed MENNiFeLD, We NEEEED MaTThuws, THIER dadDies werE BroWns, TherE WINNNNNNNNURS!!!!!!!1
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
I mean Matthews was at least a first round talent for sure. I didn’t think he would be as good as he was at first, but everyone thought he’d be first-round-good.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
In terms of being durable? I don’t know just because he has the name doesn’t mean he even has half the genes, and its a different game today.
Plus I wouldn’t be surprised if the younger Matthews was juicing, which would shorten his career.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I thought he was going to be a damn good LB in the NFL, and I did want him on the Browns, though not the reason cuz his daddy was, that just made an interesting sidenote. Chase is a high 2nd round CB – will he do well in the NFL? Yes I think so, and I think he will be a a top 10-15 CB, but not a top 5. He’s worth a 2nd round pick.
"Excuse me while I ride my unicorn over to the gentleman’s club my wife doesn’t mind me visiting and doing coke off a hooker’s ass." - Henry Dawg , DBN - Dec 2011
You may think he’ll do well, and I don’t think many people would disagree. top 10-15 is a pretty big stretch in my opinion.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 31, 2012 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
You think Chase Minnefield is going to be one of the top 15 corners in the NFL?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Yeah, not in the first 2 years mind you. I do believe that a combination of Minnefield and Haden would be a really great combination.
"Excuse me while I ride my unicorn over to the gentleman’s club my wife doesn’t mind me visiting and doing coke off a hooker’s ass." - Henry Dawg , DBN - Dec 2011
I mean if you end up being correct he would be a great value, I just think the odds of him being that good are very very low.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I think he was good and I have seen him projected near the end of the first. I was just trying to think of the better prospects and I just can’t think of any (outside of Bufict who disappointed this year) elite prospects on D that are from some of the more western conferences.
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Doesn’t Minnefield play for Virginia?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Jan 29, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, which was ACC last I checked. The point I was trying to make was that SEC, ACC, and Big-10 combined had most of the good defensive prospects.
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Luck wasn’t really in my mind while looking this stuff up, I think he’s out of our reach and therefore not the one who’s keeping me up at night. I could sing Andrew Luck lullabys and be asleep inside of 5 min. Less than a month ago I was fine with the idea of giving Colt another year to develop. I’ve been convinced at least of the idea if a star QB is to be had in this draft, no matter what the odds are for McCoy, you take him. Ok. So now my mind is bent figuring ways of “knowing” that RGIII is, as the cool kids say these days, “for realsies.”
So, what I am trying to figure now is how to “know” that Griffin isn’t the next Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Vince Young, JeMarcus Russell, Alex Smith (7 more years anybody?) etc. And, know is too strong a word, I just have to be able to convince myself it’s worth believing, and when questions such as “how good were the defenses he played against” come to mind… there go a few hours of sleep.
Not even SEC quarterbacks consistently see the kind of talent they will see in the NFL.
Exactly. All QBs get a steaming cup of “Welcome to the f@!#’in NFL!” but without facing any 1st round talent I wonder if RGIII’s is just a bit taller.
I mean, if the logic of the exercise is false, then we’d have to conclude that the Browns would have ranked offensively where they did regardless of their opponents in 2011. To me, there’s a correlation between offensive production and defensive match ups. Kendall Wright is expected to be a 1st round or near first round WR who didn’t have to match up against any corner who could reasonably be expected to take him out of the game plan. His best weapon was always available to him.
If looking at the opponents’ defenses is a waste of time than what isn’t? How do you know, or more accurately, what do you look for to believe a guy won’t bust? All of those guys listed above could/can “make the NFL throws,” I might vomit if I hear that too many more times. There’s got to be something more convincing. Namely, does he “make the NFL throws” [/barf] in the various pressure situations (blitzes, press, etc.). What are the other key indicators? What are you seeing that I need to look for?
by Mal Reynolds on Jan 29, 2012 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
must have hit the wrong reply button… I thought this would insert above rufio’s post beginning “I would rather…”
Still getting the hang of this… too accustomed to bb forums.
by Mal Reynolds on Jan 29, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
I got a good way for you to convince yourself: stop being a wuss. It’s just a goddam draft pick. Take the guy and if he busts then get another one. If he doesn’t, none of us will care about the draft this time next year.
I got a good way for you to convince yourself: stop being a wuss. It’s just a goddam draft pick. Take the guy and if he busts then get another one.
Exactly. Grow a pair and don’t be scared.
If he doesn’t, none of us will care about the draft this time next year.
I am pretty sure this is false.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 29, 2012 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Lol.
The insomnia/sanity stuff is a rhetorical device aimed at keeping things lighthearted. I can do bitchy sarcasm coupled with arrogant, pedantic declarative sentences but prefer not to as a courtesy. There’s plenty of internet talkers who get their kicks knocking others down and playing an infinite one-ups game; I’d rather ask people what they think than constantly tell them what I think is right.
If we must do this the traditional asshat way, then so be it:
Rules for for making claims about the #4 draft spot and RGIII
1. If you think his Heisman, stats, and guys like McShay, Kiper and their ilk are enough to comment on this player… stfu or at least insert the disclaimer that you can’t avoid hearing yourself speak out of ignorance.
1a Corollary: The defenses Baylor faced this year were bad, really bad, even by FBS standards. Half, HALF, of the teams he faced this year wound up in the bottom quartile. This really doesn’t need to sliced and diced as attempted below. It’s just a point that calls for cautious optimism (or mild pessimism depending on your personality type). And, there’s a running back from Wisconsin on the phone calling anyone an idiot who thinks the strength of Big Ten defenses should be discredited because none of the Big Ten QBs are projecting in the 1st round this year.
1b Corollary: Stating the obvious; we can move on from all comments related to any QB can bust, because duh, any QB can. What can be done is to consider and decide upon which indicators can influence that bust potential. Could it all be wrong? Sure, but it sounds a lot more fun and informative than shouting the same superficial “he’s great! give away all our picks to get him” vs. “we need skill players, don’t mortgage the farm,” rinse and repeat. 3 more months of this and someone on this blog will go insane.
2. If you’ve watched Baylor games this season (and/or last season), identify what aspects of his play make you most optimistic or pessimistic but consider the following:
The next questions I want to answer are how he’s performed in various situations and coverages… press man, zone, blitzes, etc. but that’s going to take some time… hint hint.
Exactly zero of these players is considered 1st round talent and only a few are 2nd rounders.
In and of itself, this info is not that revealing or definitive.
I enjoy reading subsequent comments that suggest they contradict what was already stated at the outset but merely repeat it. I didn’t think it would be asking too much in a written discussion for folks to read what has actually been written. I will admit that the overall point in the first two posts was too subtle, i.e. to get a better read on Griffin, looking at his opponents would help narrow down which games are worth looking at first and which plays are most revealing.
2a Corollary: A very good point was made that yds per play would be a better judge of Baylor’s opponents than total D. I would add that 1st down yds per play and 3rd down conversion % against could narrow that further. The sub-point being made here is that when thinking of what you’ve seen of RGIII’s play, put less stock on the throws he made to his first read, against single coverage, when ahead of down and distance or other examples where a defense is very unlikely to create pressure situations that he will routinely face at the NFL level. All the yds, comp %, and TDs in these plays roughly equate to pros practicing in shorts.
2b Corollary: None of us will have a real opportunity to get a sense of his leadership qualities, attitude, and character. On those points, we are forced to rely on journalism and trust in the Browns’ process, which to date I think we can do. As painful as it was to watch this season circle the drain, the team did not quit and if I may coin a term, our young guys especially continued to “battle.” So what we’re really looking at is whether or not RGIII not only has the physical skills but has them when they count most: 3rd and long, uncovered blitzes, tight zones, and sight adjustments, etc.
Frankly, if you’re not willing to tunnel down to this level, I cannot be bothered with you. [/asshat]
This past week has been ridiculous for me, coupled with the exciting conclusion to season two of Warehouse 13 on netflix, I’ve only managed to work my way about a 1/3 through some bad footage of the Texas game and the first half against A&M.
That being said, here’s a play worth discussing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT57THwIZwg
Go to 2:40-2:47. What I don’t like about this play is that it’s an easy pre-snap read with both safeties playing shallow and he’s really only working one side of the formation. Generally it’s the type of play I’m less interested in but it’s a start. What I do like, if you stop at 2:43, you can see he’s already made his decision even though the corner has good position. He throws a great ball, in stride, with little separation. My question is, do you think it’s the right placement? I think most NFL corners would make a play on that ball unless he puts it over the shoulder and leads him down the sideline rather than to the inside. I think this is one play that chalks one up for anticipation and decision-making as well as arm strength and setting his feet. I do think the next level will test him on this sort of throw.
Another general observation from what I’ve watched so far is that his O-line, especially at the tackle position, is definitely subpar. A&M was able to get edge pressure on quite a few plays. If that’s any indication of their play through the season, RGIII put up some freakish numbers without a whole lot of help.
Now here’s one really bad play that I show only because I hope someone else can figure out why he makes this throw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOZuD4crhno
Go to 28:35-28:49. Fresh off a turnover deep in Texas territory, it’s third down, he gets quick pressure from the left side (thanks to his dormat of an LT; won’t have to worry about that in a Brown’s uniform). He gives himself time with his feet… and while in field goal range, with an outlet on the sideline throws an INT into bracket coverage. One bad play is just one bad play but in an otherwise statistically flawless game this seems like a pretty bad mental lapse and a needless one.
I’m proposing that this be a collective effort. Time consuming? Yes. But, it strikes me as a more palatable alternative than incessant yammering back and forth without much substance.
I read it.To (over)simplify, he’s calling for people to stop generalizing when arguing whether or not we should get Griffin. He’d like for people to be specific when discussing his perceived strengths and faults, and to list empirical evidence to back up our claims (such as video of specific plays). And when I say specific I mean specific:
The next questions I want to answer are how he’s performed in various situations and coverages… press man, zone, blitzes, etc
3rd and long, uncovered blitzes, tight zones, and sight adjustments, etc
He basically would like us to treat an internet forum like a term paper. Or LGT. I can tell you right now I’d have nothing to post if this happened. Actually, no one really would except for Bernie and Rufio.
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
Also I think RG3’s strengths and weaknesses have been discussed ad nauseum. I personally don’t feel like it needs to be discussed anymore, especially not based on what he did in college against “the weakest defenses ever.” Until there is more information, its pretty much whether you want him or not at a personal level.
“I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [”A QB bust"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and Robert Griffin III is not that. [Emphasis added.]" – Justice Potter Stewart
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Feb 6, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I have zero film on RG3 that youtube doesn’t have. I couldn’t do any of this sort of analysis.
And really it wouldn’t matter a whole lot because football stats are reactive, not proactive.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
You call that a term paper? Does your diploma have a Caribbean postal code? (j/k). In my defense that’s two posts put together. In a busy week I spent a little of the free time I had watching the kid play football. I put together some thoughts and links to share (the second part). If that’s absurd sign me up for a dozen boxes of wacko and change my name to crazy Mal. Come along to the weekend to put them up and there’s a couple dudes telling me to “man up.” and a couple more putting me down with comments that did little more than paraphrase what I already said, to which I responded (first part). Smash those two together and a long post is born.
I don’t think people need to write term papers over a draft pick. If you have a gut feeling about a player or liked what some guy on ESPN said about him then say so; or more importantly ASK QUESTIONS. If you’ve watched him play point out something liked or not liked. If someone said “I watched the TCU game and he was lights out with the deep ball,” great. A weirdo like me will probably try to dig up some clips from that game. If someone does and puts them up here, cool, people can talk apples to apples, if not, then not.
People reply to comments of their own accord, there’s plenty of conversations going on. If there’s people who haven’t made up their minds about what he’s worth and should we draft him, maybe this is the place to be, or maybe it’s not, up to them.
Two questions. What’s LGT? And, did someone just equate a football player to porn?
LGT is the Cleveland Indians forum on this blogging network. It has very high standards for its commenters and features very in-depth analysis.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 8, 2012 9:44 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
…it stands for “Let’s Go Tribe,” I should add.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 8, 2012 9:45 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I mean, if the logic of the exercise is false, then we’d have to conclude that the Browns would have ranked offensively where they did regardless of their opponents in 2011.
That’s not entirely true. Projecting talent to the NFL is much different than an exercise purely situated in the pros.
If looking at the opponents’ defenses is a waste of time than what isn’t? How do you know, or more accurately, what do you look for to believe a guy won’t bust?
You look at the damn tape. You see if he can make “NFL throws.” The cliché is that in high school receivers are wide open, in college receivers get open, and in the NFL you have to throw them open. You look to see if the QB threw difficult balls into tight coverage just like he’ll have to do in the pros (“NFL throws”).
You look to see if he could beat coverages that were designed to stop his favorite plays. You look to see what his weaknesses are on film and you get him in the building and ask him to throw 10 outs to the left if that’s what you think he needs work on.
You meet with him and do a Gruden QB camp type thing, you work him out. You get a feel for how his protections and reads worked in college and how smart he is and whether he’ll be able to succeed pre-snap in the NFL. You look at the tape to see if he can get through reads quickly when he’s under pressure, just like he’ll see in the NFL. You watch in person and on tape to see if the ball “jumps” from his hands, how it spins, and how far the guy can throw it.
There aren’t “key indicators” that give you any sort of guarantee that you are drafting the next Vick, Manning, Rodgers, etc. Even Luck could bust. Parcells has listed the characteristics that he likes to see from his QBs in college, and those are probably some of the strongest correlators to NFL QBs, but even that system isn’t perfect.
If this was science, every team would be using the formula.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
So, what I am trying to figure now is how to "know" that Griffin isn’t the next Ryan Leaf, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Vince Young, JeMarcus Russell, Alex Smith
How do we know Luck isn’t? We can’t even for the “safe” guys like BQ was supposed to be in 2007. Drafting QBs is a crapshoot, but you gotta do it.
If looking at the opponents’ defenses is a waste of time than what isn’t?
you completely missed the point. Looking at individual defensive players is a waste, but how a D performs overall is good.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
The Pac 12’s defenses suck too, and Luck is still a lock to go #1. Little ben played for Miami of Ohio. Bert played for Delaware. Rivers played in the ACC. Rodgers played at Cal when the Pac 10’s defenses weren’t particularly good outside of USC.
Not even SEC quarterbacks consistently see the kind of talent they will see in the NFL.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Just looking at Walterfootball’s latest mock draft on D, about 9 of the players in the first are from the SEC in the first, 2 from the Big 10, 2 from the ACC, 1 from the big 12 and 2 from the Pac-10.
Go to round 2 and 2 from the SEC 7 from the ACC, 2 from C-USA, 3 from the Big-12, 1 from the WAC, 2 from the Big-10 1 FCS, and 1 from the Pac-10, and 1 from the big east.
more prospects from the big-12 are projected in the first 2 rounds than from the Pac-10.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
To reiterate what bross said, this means little without a comparison to other top college QBs.
In addition, you have to consider the talent on the offensive side of the ball at Baylor. He isn’t playing with other offensive players ranked any higher than these defenses.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
I think there is a reason for the skewed defensive stats.
The SEC didn’t have a decent Quarterback in the entire freaking conference. Same could be said for the Big10.
So when you take away those two “defensive” rankings, it starts to make a little more sense. Plus when Big12 teams have to face the offenses of Baylor, Okie State and Oklahoma, the numbers are going to be ugly. Can’t rely on those numbers.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Not to mention total defense doesn’t adjust for pace, and isn’t a good measure of defense in general.
If Oregon runs one play every 5 seconds, and Alabama is trying to bleed the clock once they kick a FG in the second quarter, you could have a much better per-play average against Oregon and still look terrible in total D.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I would rather take Luck. But its absurd to trade one year ahead of time to gather resources to trade up for a guy. Especially because of the hope surrounding Colt last year. I believe Holmgren wanted to give Mangini a real chance just like I believe Holmgren wanted to give Colt a real chance.
Was RG3 the target last April? Almost absolutely not. Was Luck? Also probably not.
Additionally, the phenomenon you seemed to note earlier works both ways: just as Griffin skyrocketed this year, Luck could have plummeted. Hell, Landry Jones already did and returned to school.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
In 2010, nobody had Cam Newton on their list either.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
I’m looking scoreboard. How has any of that translated to the field where it counts? You use the draft but you have to use FA better and smartly. I just point out that Jared Allen was a FA last year and how he could have helped transformed the Cleveland defense with the addition on the drafted rookies.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Shanahan on NFLN last night:
“Unless you have one of the top 5 QBs in the NFL, you’re always looking for a QB”
Meaning he’s looking for a QB but doesn’t want to say he is going to try to trade up and draft one. But he’s right; unless you have “the guy” you need “the guy.”
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Manning?
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
Manning??
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
Manning???
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
menning????
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Mocking?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I’m trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Ricky Henderson
Mooncamping?
Where taking the BROWNS to the SUPERBOWL is not a joke,but a life's passion!
by ctowndawgpound on Jan 28, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
mooncamping?
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Someone is going to move up to take RG3 with the second or third pick, probably Washington. We need Blackmon if he falls to 4 and hopefully Reiff is there at 22. By no means do we trade draft picks. Heckert and Homgren both have said from day one that we build from the draft, then why would you trade draft picks to move up two spots when there is so many holes to fill. Also, just sign Hillis, there’s no one in this draft, including Richardson, that’s better. Give McCoy some time and some weapons and see what he can do. There’s some very good QB,s comming out next year.
First of all, as stated above, Heckert acquired those picks to improve the team the best he could. If packaging a few of them to get a potential franchise QB is an option, why wouldn’t he explore that? That would improve the team at the most important position.
Second, as has been stated 1000 times before, you have no idea what will happen between now and the 2013 draft. There may not be any top QB prospects by that time.
Finally, other QBs have succeeded in the NFL with as much or less talent at WR/OL as the Browns have; Colt isn’t the answer for this team.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
Colt isn’t the answer for this team.
We’ve all taken a hard line here out of necessity, but I’m going to take a second to soften it. Colt McCoy could still potentially be a good NFL QB. I just don’t want to waste the next three years finding out.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
This is what I think too. I don’t think we need Blackmon as much as some people have stated, we just need 1 more receiving threat and a RT and its possible Colt develops some more in the system, but I’m tired of waiting. Go get RG3 or Luck (never know) and lets see what happens. I don’t want to wait until 2013 to maybe get Barkley/Jones and then wait another year for them to learn, etc. etc. The time to get a QB is now.
We have the worst receiving corp in the NFL. I hope the Browns are not in position to get Barkley. That would mean that we finish in the bottom tier of the league. If that happens Shurmur is gone.
by 27BUCKEYE27 on Jan 26, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Our receivers are bad, but they aren’t that bad.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
…and adding Blackmon/Jeffery/Wright/Sanu and/or RG3 is gonna make things much much better!
I'll gladly pay you Tuesday, for an MDP today.
Well, yeah.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yes they are. Only receiving corp worst are in Denver. And they are better!
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
I would trade our WR’s for Denver’s in a heartbeat.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Really? Eddie Royal and two guys who can’t say on the field?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I could see Royal and Decker in place of MoMass and Cribbs.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 29, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I love Demaryius Thomas. Loved him coming out of the draft, think he is Greg Little on steroids.
Plus I like Decker.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 29, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Little is stronger, Thomas is faster, especially deep. I like Decker too, but neither of them can stay on the field. Thomas’ knees are going to be done not too long from now.
I’d trade either for Massaquoi easily but not Little.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Since when did WR’s have to be strong?
by The Licensed Pessimist on Jan 29, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, really. Being strong has nothing to do with this game.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 29, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
are you serious?
Besides the fact that it helps him break tackles and block better, being stronger means you can easier shed press coverage. Little is much less susceptible to bump and runs because of it.
It’s also great for shielding defenders from the ball and catching the ball over the middle and taking a hit.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Since they started playing at a level above middle school?
You know, getting off of a jam, being strong with the ball, having strong hands, taking a hit, breaking tackles, going up strong to meet the ball at your highest point, fighting for yardage…all that stuff. Not that any of those are qualities you’d want in a guy that catches the ball.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Incidentally, I was reading Bill Walsh’s book today and found this:
FWIW, its the second trait Walsh touches on after what he defines as agility.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Jan 30, 2012 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Good thing SOPA is not in effect.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 30, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Bill Walsh is a Piker compared to TheLicensedPessimist, one of the great football gurus of our generation.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 30, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald—who isn’t even overwhelmingly fast or that good of a leaper, etc. People even talk about Moss as being deceptively strong. Steve Smith…
You can get away with being DeSean Jackson but you have to bring something really special to the table.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
The Bears best receiver is a corner.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 29, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Even with bad WR’s, a QB should still show something. Outside of a few moments, Colt didn’t do that.
In fact, I think he looked worse this season than last.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2012 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
Colt made some good throws early on. What really turned me off was that he looked worse from the Texans game on—and thats right around the time I would think he’d get his brain around the offense.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
This is absolutely correct. There are a few reasons to be optimistic about Colt still, but we can’t pin all of our hopes and plans on Colt becoming the guy. If you think an available QB has a better chance to be a franchise QB, take him.
by Legoman0721 on Jan 26, 2012 11:47 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Heckart has never taken a QB that high. Its not the way he does things thats why.
by 27BUCKEYE27 on Jan 26, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
He never needed to, he had McNabb in Philly almost his whole career (and I think he was the 2nd or 3rd overall pick). Closer to the end of it he took Kolb in the 2nd, but at a time when McNabb was still playing well.
If you remember the Browns had the No 1 that yr.
by kamasutraman_007 on Jan 29, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
Couch would be tearing it up with the team we have right now.
by HenryDawg on Jan 29, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Some people are scared of drafting a QB high. What they really should be worried about is a one game wonder like Holcomb derailing your plan. Even a one year wonder like Anderson getting you to half ass the development of Quinn. I’m glad this FO is taking the long way, if Cleveland fans and media can just shut up for a couple of years we might actually be good one day.
Quinn and Couch weren’t failures because of development issues. Quinn especially you can basically point to the fact that he has not sniffed the field for his next team.
Couch never sniffed the field again because he was broken in half fifteen times. Quinn has not seen the field again because he sucked when he played here and he sucks worse in Denver.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 30, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Couch had irreparable damage on his shoulder when he left the Browns, IIRC. Gotta consider that when making this comparison, regardless of whether you think he sucked or not.
by BuenosAires_Dawg on Jan 30, 2012 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
Do you have an issue with football players crying?
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 30, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Its not the way he does things thats why.
This is a completely disproven point by now, come on. Homgren traded away a 1st round pick for Favre so that must be “the way he does things”.
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
OH MY GOD – Holmgren, Holmgren, Holmgren…..one of my pet peeves around here and I go and do it.
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
Holmgren stepped in and took McCoy he wont make same decision on next QB it will have to be group decision
by 27BUCKEYE27 on Jan 26, 2012 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
At the end of the third round! It was hardly some crazy decision with a high draft pick.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 29, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
Read my words!!! I said its not Heckarts way!!! I didnt say anything about Holmgren!!!! Holmgren stepped in and grabbed McCoy and it wont happen again!! Not this soon anyway. Heckart is the man that needs to be making the final decisions on draft day
by 27BUCKEYE27 on Jan 26, 2012 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Heckert was part of the braintrust that drafted Kevin Kolb in the 2nd round even though they had a QB who put up good numbers the previous season.
He won’t hesitate to address the most important position on the field.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions
Really? He has never taken a QB that high because he has never needed to. In Philly, he came in when they had mcnabb and he STILL took Kolb in the 2nd when mcnabb was good.
Also, if you look a little harder, he was Director of Pro Personnel in miami when they took…Chad Pennington.
So he HAS drafted a QB in the first.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Just how many super bowls did McNabb win? Its all about getting a QB that can win a super bowl right? Thought so!
by 27BUCKEYE27 on Jan 26, 2012 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
that isn’t the point.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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McNabb clearly had the skills to win a SB, but just never did. You can say the same for Marino, Bernie and plenty of others. Sometimes the chips don’t fall your way. Therefore, do not draft a good QB?
I think he had the skills but just wasn’t that elite leader. He is kind of on that level below the elite SB winning QBs.
I looked this up recently and mcnabb has been very inconsistent and average in the playoffs. That’s one of those cases (like with Rivers) where the team will go as far as the QB will take them.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
McNabb made four Championship games and One Superbowl, and with one drive he would have beaten a good Patriots team in the Superbowl. His career was a good one. He was a very good quarterback. He was big, and could avoid being sacked, and ran if necessary. At 250 lbs he was hard to bring down by blitzing DB’s or even most linebackers. That being said I think Andy Reid got the most out of McNabb’s abilities. I would take him over Rivers in a second
I disagree on Rivers, but I really like mcnabb. He was really good, but just under that level I believe is “HOF Contention”
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Yeah I agree I dont think McNabb is a Hall of Fame quarterback, but he was definetly the best pick of that 1999 draft. I hate the way Rivers deleivers the ball, and San Diego screwed up , when they let go of Brees (in favor of Rivers) and Schottenheimer. I dont know where Rivers would be now if Schottenheimer would have gotten his way in San Diego, He loved Brees
Eli might be said to be on that level too, Eli might be said to not be the greatest leader, Eli got it done.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I agree, but he got it don whereas mcnabb was somewhat inconsistent in the playoffs, especially his early years.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
What I am saying is that if McNabb gets a little luckier and wins that super bowl or gets a better defense around him or better wideouts, people would be singing a much different tune. He was very, very good for a long time.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I agree with everything you said. Sometimes the difference between being winning a SB and not is a little luck. I think he is an incredible playayer anyways.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Chad Pennington is enough reason to scare any team that is building from taking a chance on a QB that high in the first round. Talk about a QB with a weak arm!!!!
by 27BUCKEYE27 on Jan 26, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
Chad Pennington was still a pretty good quarterback that got at least one team to the playoffs. I’d take that right now.
by Legoman0721 on Jan 27, 2012 9:52 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
If your goal was to find a QB that is the polar opposite of RG3, well done.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
Chris Polk
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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I was debating making a fanpost, but this seems more suited to what I wanted to ask.
Why aren’t more of us talking about Courtney Upshaw? Assuming the guys on offense that we want are gone before our first pick, why not fill a need with a guy that could be a terrific pass rusher?
by Legoman0721 on Jan 26, 2012 11:27 AM EST via Android app reply actions
To clarify, I meant using him as our RDE, not as an OLB. He has the size to hold up as a RE, and he seems to be a great pass rushing prospect.
by Legoman0721 on Jan 26, 2012 11:29 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
He would be a good pick but seems to project better as a 3-4 OLB and I don’t think he’ll be in the right spot for any of our picks. He’s a really good player, I just think he’ll be chosen after 4 and well before 22.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
If this is the case, rather have Hightower at 22. He is a hybrid guy.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 26, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
I like Upshaw, always seems to make plays. Reminds me of Lamarr Woodley, think he is better in a 3-4. Don’t think he would be a good fir for us in the first.
Would love to have him later in the draft, but he won’t fall that far. Seems like a nice fit for the Jets.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
Slightly OT, but it plays into this conversation – outside of Drew Brees, Flynn and maybe Jason Campbell, has anyone seen the full list of FA QB’s this year. It practically induces nasuea. RGIII – or the draft spot to get him are going to be pretty valuable commodoties.
Here they are – in order of horridness;
Chris Redman (ATL)
Derek Anderson (CAR)
Shaun Hill (DET)
Drew Stanton (DET)
Brady Quinn (DEN)
David Garrard (FA)
Luke McCown (JAC)
Chad Henne (MIA)
Sage Rosenfels (MIA)
David Carr (NYG)
Mark Brunell (NYJ)
Kevin O’Connell (NYJ)
Kyle Boller (OAK)
Vince Young (PHI)
Charlie Batch (PIT)
Dennis Dixon (PIT)
Byron Leftwich (PIT)
Charlie Whitehurst (SEA)
A.J. Feeley (STL)
Josh Johnson (TB)
Rex Grossman (WAS)
Richard Bartel (ARZ) – Restricted
Max Hall (ARZ) – Exclusive Rights
Tyler Palko (KC) – Restricted
Brian Hoyer (NE) – Restricted
Chase Daniel (NO) – Restricted
What does that MEAN - TO PLAY US OUT?!!?!?
Its sad that 3 of these players have started for the Browns….
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
You’re telling me we can have DA, Quinn, AND McCown all back on the roster?! Say goodbye to all of that cap room. SO MANY SUPER BOWLS (AND TRADE BAIT)
I should have made my screen name DerekAndersonIsMyBrother
by Doc's Kid on Jan 26, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Two of these guys I would work out…..not that they would be worth it…Vince Young and Charlie Whitehurst. Both know the WCO and potentially could be better than McCoy, or at least push him. This is only if Griffin hasn’t already got his $Browns4Eva’$ tattoo.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 26, 2012 4:19 PM EST reply actions
You’d think after posting on here for a couple years i’d figure out how to use the reply button.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 26, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
Could a Colts rebuild strategy shake up the draft? Now that they have hired Pagano as their HC, there is the question of whether they would keep with a 4-3 defense or switch to a 3-4. Not sure what they are going to do at DC, but if the decide to switch they are in a position to score a butt ton of picks if they want to trade away the #1 pick. I’m not saying it is a likely scenario, but it’s definitely possible and that could really change the complexion of the draft.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."
— Winston S. Churchill
I have the best wife - ever.
I think Robert Mathis is a free agent, if they did switch to a 3-4 there may be a chance that the Colts elect to not Franchise him.
by OSUMoneyball on Jan 26, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
There were too many choices, so I went with ghostrider.
I should have made my screen name DerekAndersonIsMyBrother
I’m going to guess that the odds of H&H trading up are probably something like 80/20 against. In that case if say we either choose Blackmon or RG3 at 4, who looks good at 22? Maybe Mike Adams, or possibly Whitney Mercilus?
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
Simple solution to that. Get rid of the Safety Mike Adams. If I was basing it in names though, a sack from a player named Mercilus sounds awesome.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 27, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Sign me up for DE Mercilus….
Pesky speed rusher…..2011 led nation in sacks (16) and forced fumbles (9)…finished second in tackles for a loss (22.5). If the role of a DE is to stop plays, this cat is one of the best. Plus he’s Haitian so his work ethic is solid.
I'll gladly pay you Tuesday, for an MDP today.
Plus he’s Haitian so his work ethic is solid.
Really?
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Jan 27, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Janoris Jenkins has been looking good at the Senior Bowl workouts. Might be nice to add to a pretty good secondary to possibly making it a great one.
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
Has a ton of talent. If he would/could have stayed at UF, he would be a top 10 pick.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 27, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
He still might be. If he runs well, he could be DRC again.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
If Claiborne can’t shake this “could be a better safety” label, he may be the 1st CB off the board.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 28, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Brock Osweiler is an interesting QB to maybe take in the 4th-5th round. Might be a good choice to keep around as a 3rd string developemental project. The guy is 6-8, 245 pounds, with a cannon of an arm. But very raw.
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
OT: I just got tickets for Van Halen and Kool and the Gang at the Bryce Jordan Center (Penn State) on March 26th. Super excited.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
by Dawg Nuts on Jan 28, 2012 10:57 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Mushroomhead is coming to my hometown March 30th. I know the bouncer so I get in free. Super pumped as well.
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 28, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
Anyone think the Bengals would give up both of their firsts to move up for Richardson? If RG3 is off the board, they might make us an offer for fear we would pick him. If they did and we accepted, how does this sound for the Browns first round haul: Jeffrey, Mercilus, Burfict.
by JohnW81 on Jan 28, 2012 5:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
If RG3 was off the board and the Bengals called to offer that, I wouldn’t be able to get ‘yes’ out of my mouth fast enough.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 28, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
See, I do care.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 28, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
4th overall, 3rd round pick and 4th round pick to move up to pick #2 to take RG3 and 71% say no? Cleveland please, if you want to stop being a joke stop giving people the opportunity to laugh at you.
Seriously, what are people thinking?! Are we gonna get some unstoppable superstar with them other picks?
We could miss out on the next Beau Bell. He as taken at just about that spot in 2008.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 30, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Just kicking ourselves….
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 30, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t believe people would walk away from that deal.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Because it would be like the Indians trading Alex White and Drew Pomeranz for a Ubaldo Jiminez. Oh wait………
BREAKING NEWS! Apple is releasing a special edition LeBron James iPhone. Problem is it only vibrates b/c it has no RING!...
It would not be like that at all. Those two guys were both top ten picks.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
And Ubaldo Jiminez has a major league track record of success.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t relish moving up for RG3 and even I would leap at that deal. Only really give up a 3rd and 4th? Sign me up. I just think it would take more.
I would be shocked if this is all it took.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 30, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Keep dreaming. That deal would never happen. Washington, and possible others, would outbid that by a mile.
Who says Washington doesn’t get Peyton? or Flynn? Heck, what if they get Alex Smith? Why would they trade up when they trade for a guy?
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Wouldn’t mind getting Osi Umenyiora. Probably wouldn’t happen though.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/06/osi-umenyiora-unsure-about-his-future-with-giants/
Its fun arguing about who we would pick and why, but the same thought keeps running in my mind as I’m reading all this. Not a chance in hell that any of us predicted H&H to get Phil Taylor in the 1st last year. April can’t get here fast enough.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
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