Draft question from a St. Louis Rams fan
by mcihaelT on Jan 25, 2012 2:16 PM EST
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PrintHello Dawgs By Nature. First, let me say that I have always respected the Browns fans, as you all seem to be as passionate and loyal as fans can be. In full disclosure, I am not a fan of the Browns, but will say that I often root for them, as I do like the Browns more than any other AFC North team. I sincerely hope for your future success, and I certainly wish the Rams had many of your key pieces on their team, particularly along the O-Line and in the secondary. Speaking of key pieces...
Obviously there has been much media chatter concerning RGIII, the Rams' 2nd pick, and potential trade partners. I am of the mind that CLE presents the best trade option, as there is talk that you may desire RGIII, and you have a haul of picks from that ATL trade in last year's draft. I am hoping the Rams do not try to get too greedy, and thus I am writing to you to get a sense of what "too greedy" might be.
I, for one, would be thrilled with your two 1st round picks and your 2nd and 4th in the 2012 draft. Asking for any more than that would qualify as greedy in my book, as you are only moving up 2 spots. However, it occurs to me that those 4 picks may qualify as greedy to you, the fans. There is of course, however, the matter of Shanahan and Snyder, who could offer the proverbial farm, thereby making the price very steep.
So, what say you, Dawgs By Nature? Do you even want RGIII? What would a fair asking price be for trading up to take RGIII--if you even want him?
Thank you in advance for any input you can give!
This is a fan-created post. Dawgs By Nature assumes no responsibility for the content listed.
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I am from the school of thought that we still have too many holes to fill to mortgage everything for RGlll. Sorry, but your proposal is way too much, imo. Thanks for the offer, but I am hoping we trade down for more picks this year and next. Then next year, if Mccoy continues to not progress, we pull the trigger for a QB. My opinion.
by OldTimeDawg on Jan 25, 2012 2:40 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
I really want Barkley. When we was a freshman and beat OSU, I hated him, but if we can get him. I’m thinking we actually might trade down, if the picks go, Luck, RG3, Blackmon.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Jan 25, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
That price is way too steep imo. Especially just to move up 2 slots.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Montario Hardesty, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 25, 2012 2:44 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the replies
I am just trying to get a gauge for the situation, from the people who know the team best. I thought that price might be too steep. Guess it is, as OldTimeDawg suggests, time to start talking to the Redskins. You are in an envious position, with all of those 2012 and 2013 picks to play with. Good luck!
The price isn’t as steep as some I have heard and seriously thought it may be worth it (such as both of our firsts). I guess the 5 people who recced that comment above don’t value a franchise QB as much as I do. That’s not an awful price and I think we could get RG3 for less as long as a bidding war doesn’t happen.
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IMO If we actually want RGIII I would offer the Rams both of this years #1’s but no more and I would think that they would jump at it. The Rams would still be able make a splash at #4 any lower and the big names are not going to be there.
You look like your fishing for Luck kinda picks with this question and that will not happen (with the Browns anyway). Don’t hold your breath for a trade at all H&H are not known for trading up.
H&H have traded up in each of the last two drafts.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Haven’t they also traded down, netting a result of not trading, lol.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." -Paul Brown
by macdowellm03 on Jan 25, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, I specifically meant these high picks. They like to parlay them into more if the guy they want is not there.
They’ve had two drafts. In one of them, they took a guy with a high pick. In the other, they first traded down in the first round, but then traded back up in the round.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 26, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with this thinking on the surface
But I suspect Fisher really wants Kalil and if the Rams trade down, MIN will seemingly be locked in on Kalil
I would say both #1s and a 4th round rounder would be more than fair and you would still get Blackmon or Kalil, plus an extra first rounder. Trade with Wash and you’re looking at the second best LT, which isn’t bad but you won’t get another first rounder this year either.
I don’t think we have as many holes as others do, and I think we have less holes than the Rams so I see it as a win/win.
I agree here. The key is, I think STL has Kalil or Blackmon on their list. If they trade with the browns, if that is even needed, then you get one of those 2 players still. If you trade with washington, you almost assure yourself of losing out on one of those players. So the package is one thing, but I think STL needs to take less from cleveland to still get who they want.
I agree with your 2nd point to. I think a QB fixes a lot of our holes, and if Heckert believes that RG3 is a top tier QB then we have to get him.
This is what I think as well.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 25, 2012 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
Totally disagree!!!!
Moving up two spots doesn’t and shouldn’t require adding a second 1st round pick plus a 2nd & 4th. At best I would offer the swap plus a third – thats it.. We need as many picks as we can get in the earlier rounds to add more talented players, not leverage what is amounting to a great build up of talent. The Browns are on the correct path to having a very strong team and do not need to overpay for any player.
"Excuse me while I ride my unicorn over to the gentleman’s club my wife doesn’t mind me visiting and doing coke off a hooker’s ass." - Henry Dawg , DBN - Dec 2011
I would be happy with the two 1st rd picks
as GrillGuy suggests, but be even happier if a 4th rd pick were thrown in as well. As you suggest, trading down to the 4th pick would still probably net Blackmon, and I think anything else would be a bonus.
While trading with WAS, as HenryDawg suggests, would net Reiff—I think LT is more important to Fisher than WR—it wouldn’t include a 2nd 1st rd pick this year. However, if WAS threw in it’s 2nd this year and a 2013 1st rd pick, that might seem more attractive than only 2 1st rd picks this year.
If Holmgren and Heckert want RGIII, I believe it will take the 2 1st rd picks, and the 4th. In the end, CLE would get its QB, and you would still have the 2013 picks from the ATL trade.
It’s all speculation, of course, so thanks for playing along.
How about you don’t trade with anyone and let us take RG3 at #4.
But if the Skins try to get bold, our two firsts and two fourths would be fine.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 25, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
That would be ideal, wouldn't it?
But it seems to me that there will eventually be a team wanting to move up for RGIII, and with the numerous holes the Rams have to fill, they would be wise to trade down.
I’m sort of wondering whats to stop them from calling the Browns and saying “they’re giving us all their picks to drop 6 spots – you want to match it?”
For some reason they’ve been acting too interested in RG3, I smell smoke.
For the record
Nobody at Turf Show Times, or nearly nobody, is really giving the drafting of RGIII for the Rams any traction. If the FO is doing it, I believe it is only a bluff to drive up the price.
I know, I don’t think we are worried about the Rams taking him, but what stops them from calling the Browns and saying the Redskins are on the phone and offering 2 firsts and 2 seconds. Do you want to beat it? But really the Redskins just offered a 1st and a 3rd rounder.
Because if the Browns find out it was a lie no one will ever trade with the Rams again.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 27, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Has this ever happened?
I suspect if a team did that news would get out VERY fast. As far as I know, there are no rules prohibiting execs from discussing those matters.
Feel like nobody wants to trade with the Bears again…
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Jan 28, 2012 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
This might be helpful to you:
http://www.sportznutz.com/nfl/draft/draft_point_value_chart.htm
This is the point value chart (or the first version of it to pop up on google) assigned to draft picks. Our two first round picks alone would put us just about even in value points, anything beyond that is a loss in value for the Browns and thus pretty unlikely.
My faith in our FO executing drafts is high right now which tempers my schizoid behavior when it comes to 1st round QBs. If they really think RGIII is the next Brown’s hall of fame quarterback then going in the red a bit with a 4th rounder or something in 2013 would be great but it’s not in the track record.
I hope to see the Rams do well… after all, they got their start in Cleveland.
Thanks for the link and the well-wishes
Your reasoning makes perfect sense, and kicking in the 4th shouldn’t be too far out of the comfort zone, even if history so far has proven otherwise. I guess it all hinges on RGIII and his pro day and combine showings. Go Browns!
Can you imagine if Griffin flat out rips up the combine and Irsay takes him over Luck? It would be pandemonium.
by Brownie's Year on Jan 25, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
the draft value chart is outdated and I don’t think a lot of gms use it. To put it this way, the #6 pick is worth 1600 points and we got maybe 1700-1800 points. Teams almost never give up as much as the “value” of the top 10 pick to move up there. By those stats, the trade would be kinda even for the teams but even right after the trade everyone was talking about how the Browns fleeced them.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
The chart was intended to help the author frame his thinking. But since you brought it up I would have to think your line of thought would lead to the opposite conclusion. The comments made that the Browns took Atlanta to the cleaners were made by media analysts and fans, not by GMs. If it were truly a lopsided trade by whatever assessment method teams do use there would probably have been a whole lot more crumpled up pink slips laying about the Atlanta Falcons parking lot. They got the player they wanted and got very good production from him. Had he been a bust his rookie season their failure would have been on the evaluation side rather than trade value side.
I do think we got more value in the trade but the trade off was the higher degree of risk to hit big on prospects picked further down the board. Atlanta was obviously confident their team would make the playoffs and I think the Browns showed confidence in their scouting department and draft prep.
by Mal Reynolds on Jan 27, 2012 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
They got the player they wanted
well, yeah. That doesn’t mean that from an outside perspective we fleeced them. They gave up a lot to move up and it was kinda a “win now” move because I believe (considering their play in 2010 and the move) they really thought they were a piece or two away.
That’s just the only trade I can think of offhand, but generally when the “draft value” is even, it tends to seem to favor (in the short run and the long run if the team hits) the team that traded out of the top 5.
Check out the fanshot about how the draft value chart severely overvalues top 5 picks. That’s the point.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I think that’s a good point that is generally true. The team that is trading up would logically have to sweeten the pot at least some. I am struggling to think of a team trading out of top ten that really got screwed…
by Mal Reynolds on Jan 28, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
But we got Ratty in that trade.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 28, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah… maybe. Taking players in trade makes it a bit harder to judge, Coleman and Elam were starters both years they were with us. I think if they hadn’t whiffed so badly with Veikune it could be us having the last laugh on that trade. Can you believe Philly took LeSean McCoy right after Veikune… imagine a McCoy/Hillis tandem.
by Mal Reynolds on Jan 28, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
If I were you guys I’d rather have the best left tackle since Joe Thomas than pretty much any package another team puts together.
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
This also makes sense, and Fisher has stated that O-Line will be a priority
But Mike Mayock of NFL network—for whatever his opinion is worth—actually has Reiff rated higher than Kalil. That is, of course, the minority opinion, but getting Reiff plus some additional picks might make sense.
As a Browns fan, this what I’m hoping for. If Kalil goes 2nd to Luck, the Vikes can only take one of, Claiborne, RG3 or Blackmon. Having 3 different skill sets as choices puts a premium on the #4 pick, making it ‘more’ appealing to ‘more’ teams to trade up. If Blackmon is there, IMO, there’s no question, Browns should take him.
the best left tackle since Joe Thomas
Flag. Comparisons to Joe Thomas are not acceptable. Please compare him to a non-deity left tackle. Another statement like this and you are looking at being banned. Thanks.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 26, 2012 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Stating that the referenced player (one Matthew Kalil) would be the best offensive tackle since Joseph"The Almighty" Thomas only implies that he would be better than any other tackle taken between 2007 and this (2012) draft. The statement was not meant to be a direct comparison between the two players. Any other inquiries should be directed at the law offices of please Joe Thomas don’t kill me I didn’t know what I was SAYING I REPENT I REPENT
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
by Adrock2099 on Jan 26, 2012 2:34 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The only pick i would offer to move up two spots would be the swap plus a 3rd. Anything else is too expensive for what we need to do in Cleveland.
"Excuse me while I ride my unicorn over to the gentleman’s club my wife doesn’t mind me visiting and doing coke off a hooker’s ass." - Henry Dawg , DBN - Dec 2011
The way I see it, the Rams don’t need/want a QB. The vikes most likely, don’t go after another QB so soon either. That makes the Browns’ #4 pick the earliest a bottom 15 team would need to trade up to, as long as the Browns’ show strong interest. Heckert said last year (paraphrasing, of course), “we wanted J.Jones. That’s why we got what we got for him”. IMO, RG3 is being over-hyped.
I would trade up but that asking price is ridiculous. I would walk away from the table instantly if they made that offer.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Agree with B19K and Rufio here. Your asking price is an ambit claim that we should absolutely not accept. If our FO did it my brain would explode. In my book a first round swap and the #37 pick is all I would give up.
I'm entitled to my opinion. Especially if I'm wrong.
by Aussie Brown on Jan 26, 2012 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
I would offer the 3rd round pick along with the 1st round only, if the Fo thought RGIII was a real good deal. If we were to give up two first rounders, well that would only be to move into the first pick.
"Excuse me while I ride my unicorn over to the gentleman’s club my wife doesn’t mind me visiting and doing coke off a hooker’s ass." - Henry Dawg , DBN - Dec 2011
agreed. this is a two position swap, where Rams still get there guy (Kalil or Blackmon). We would be addressing the most important position on the team, but youre asking price is way to high. We have exceptional fall back options if youre too greedy….Rams need to play play this right, not us.
I'll gladly pay you Tuesday, for an MDP today.
I think Manning will end up in Washington, Dan Snyder will jump at it and offer the world, when the Colts cut him. And with Philbin going to Miami, I think Flynn ends up there. That will knock the two biggest competitors out. Seattle may jump in, but I think Carroll will want to wait for Barkley next year. That being said if the Browns HAD to trade up, I think it would be along the lines of a 1st and 4th in 2012, then a 3rd or 4th next year.
I don’t think the Colts have any reason to cut Manning. He is the mentor to end all mentors…..that’s how I would look at it as someone evaluating the state of the team. Big cost….Big Reward.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 25, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
I know their situation. I thought it was 28 million reasons. Taking Luck number one overall and getting Manning to mentor him for a couple seasons isn’t worth it?
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 25, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
Manning doesn’t want to be there.
They are going in a whole new direction.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jan 25, 2012 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
According to Rob Lowe he is retiring too.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 25, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Manning will be in INDY and we won’t take RG3…..Bold prediction.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 25, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure if I was smoking crack with Luck here or not.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 28, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think the Colts have any reason to cut Manning. He is the mentor to end all mentors
Curtis Painter and Jim Sorgi called — they disagree.
2010 Official DBN League Fantasy Football Champion
"Can you imagine the nightmare scenario if Brady Quinn slides all the way into the 20s, Baltimore jumps up and gets the guy . . . ?" Savage said. "I'd get killed."
by TheDriveStillHurts on Jan 26, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
Also Andrew Luck left a message and said that if he had to sit for two years he’d pull an Elway until you trade him somewhere that would start him immediately.
"We just lost to the Steelers 20 hours ago and that still hurts. I need to get home and eat a burrito." -Phil Dawson
Oh yeah…Rec
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Jan 26, 2012 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks again for all the input
This has all been very informative and your insights have been great. And because the Browns and Rams don’t meet in 2012—unless we both make it to the SB— GO BROWNS!!!
Much appreciated, we always like when fans of other teams drop by with interesting discussion.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Jan 27, 2012 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
Not a chance the Rams need RG3more than the Browns do… look at the stats McCoy is better than Bradford
They are pretty much a wash at the moment. It’s generally accepted that Bradford has a way higher ceiling though. You generally don’t give up on a #1 overall after only 2 seasons.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Montario Hardesty, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by North Coast Flea on Jan 31, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
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