Mayock: Do whatever it takes to get RG3
by Jon @ DBN on Feb 16, 2012 12:09 AM EST
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PrintMike Mayock, draft analyst for the NFL Network, held a media conference call Wednesday. He spoke on a wide variety of topics, but the most interesting to Cleveland Browns fans were those regarding Robert Griffin III. Mary Kay Cabot of The Plain Dealer has all of the detail, and Mayock sure goes into some detail, in an article here.
"As much as I like Colt McCoy, I still think they have to look to upgrade that position and I think they have to do whatever it takes to get there,'' said Mayock of grabbing Griffin. "If it's me, yeah, I'm looking at that real hard. I want to go get RG3.''
Mayock had this to say about what it might cost for the Browns to draft RG3:
"If you're talking purely draft, I'm looking to move up to No. 2 as opposed to No. 3, because if I move to three what if the Redskins come up to two? Obviously I'd like to give less -- I'd rather not give up No. 22 also -- but I think that's shortsighted when you're talking about trying to secure your future at the most important position in all of sports.''
Over the past several months, the idea of the Browns drafting Griffin has been growing on me more and more. Since about halfway through the season of watching the mess that was the Browns' offense, I've thought we needed a new quarterback. But even then, I remained pretty firm in my belief that we should draft the best prospect available at a position we need while retaining our early round picks, such as No. 22 and No. 37. However, all of the RG3 coverage over the past few weeks has been chipping away at that. Mayock's comments here were the straw that broke the camel's back, but in a good way. Our very own Bernie19Kosar has been saying it for quite a long time, now I'm finally ready to agree, 100 percent: Do whatever it takes to get RG3, even if that means giving up No. 22. Quarterback is what the Browns have been missing for too long. We are finally in a position to get one.
Mayock touches on several other aspects of RG3 and what he could mean for the Browns. I highly recommend reading the whole thing whether you're an RG3 doubter or have believed all along.
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Hey look. It’s Andre 3000
by lightninmcqueen on Feb 16, 2012 12:26 AM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
my big thing that makes me want RG3 is the opportunity. I think the browns are better than the 4th worst team and its reasonable to assume they will improve next year. They were in almost every game and they were comming off no off season with a new offense a new defense and a new coaching staff. no team can succeed under those conditions. If we had an offseason and didnt get the awful injury bug the browns wouldnt have a pick in the top 5 or 7. so next year with H&H having another offseason and the team getting better… i think its ok to assume we wont have a top five pick. SO this year is (hopefully) the only year we can trade up / get a top notch QB with out giving up the farm. even if say matt barkley is better than RG3 it will be way way better for the team in the long run to go in for RG3 NOW.. ok back to chemistry
by nickmar19 on Feb 16, 2012 12:35 AM EST reply actions 9 recs
While I like all the pluses that keep getting said about RG3, there was two glaring issues pointed out that he shares with our current QB:
1) He takes a lot of hits
2) Issues anticipating an receiver getting open
I’ll admit I’m kinda coming around to like the choice if we take him though those 2 items kinda make me nervous. Sure he makes plays but another Harrison-esque hit and he’ll be on the bench fairly quick for a few games, especially if the league gets gunshy about possible concussions.
You could say that a Harrison-esque hit would put anybody on the bench. That’s why its illegal.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 16, 2012 10:43 AM EST via Android app up reply actions 5 recs
Well put. Not drafting a guy because we are afraid that if James Harrison launches his helmet into the guy’s helmet illegally may concuss our guy is not a good reason to not draft someone.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Baylor’s O Line is terrible, this article does a good job of showing how well he deals with pressure: http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2012/2/14/2798950/tale-of-the-tape-robert-griffin-iii-vs-oklahoma
I’m going to hope/assume our right side is fixed next year, but if not he handles pressure really well and is not afraid to take a hit if he needs to give the receiver an extra half second to come open.
The anticipation issue could be a problem if he doesn’t adapt. Colt is terrible at it and the main reason he’s failed so far. The way RG3 plays and his confidence in himself and teammates kind leads me to believe that he will adapt.
That is a fantastic article that should be a Fanshot.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 16, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
Eh, Y shallow cross refers to kind of a specific concept and I am not sure they are running it in that one play. Also, RG3 isn’t just faking a handoff, he’s faking the inverted veer. Lastly, “Y” refers to personnel, not a position if that makes sense. Y is the TE, not the slot receiver. You can move your “Y” around so that he becomes a slot receiver, but “Y” is Ben Watson, not Jordan Norwood.
On the play where he throws “behind” the WR, I would say that might actually be on the receiver. It looks a lot like zone coverage, or at least man with a robber. His receiver is open in the window between the two defenders and should “throttle down” between them to sit in the open spot against zone. RG’s throw is between the two defenders where it should be, but the receiver looks like he is trying to run into the coverage of one of those guys.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Also the footwork thing on the sluggo route…I don’t know it looks like pretty solid footwork to me. It looks like they picked one still out of a video where his foot is forward but before his momentum brings his body forward to match so it looks like he is throwing off his back foot.
He sometimes sinks down a little bit when he is moving in the pocket, which I don’t like. Its at those times when he is between being in the pocket and taking off. He’s making an athletic move and throwing at the same time. Got to get rid of that. Other times, the footwork looks really good. A few “rhythm” throws, a great look off/hitch on the ball where he makes the bad decision on that throw over the middle. He is particularly good at the one step rhythm throw off of the shotgun run action.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’ll believe you on all of that, but I think his article does do a good job showing him getting rid of the ball when under pressure. If it didn’t, my own eyeballs during the Alamo said he does.
BTW if you or anyone else finds “whole game” highlights of him I would love links.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
I’m not sure if it’s still up but ESPN3.com had a bunch of old games from this past season, including some Baylor games.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2012 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
Quarterback pressures, why RG3 is more advanced than Andrew Luck!!!.
RG3 reminds me of Rich Gannon or a young Mark Brunell
But the defining reason why i came to CSR and talked about Newton was because of his responds to pressure. I talked about in length. I must remind everyone that this is the most critcal aspect of quarterbacking. IF a quarterbacks ability to throw a football was the most important then this guy would be the number one draft pick. It is 100% withoout a doubt a quarterbacks ability to deal with bodies and a crowded pocket that gives them the edge.
I posted this on Mocking the draft
Defined reasons for failure or success in the NFL
Lack of pocket skills as defined in prior posts
1. ignore bodies around you and staying on balance remaining composed and calm even in a quarterbacks body langage while all heck is breaking lose around you
2. step up in the pocket and slide in the pocket maintaining focus down field
3. feel the rush and NOT look at the rush
4. (bonus) have the ability to extend the play
5. (bonus) have the ability to make plays with your legsThese are failed to under achieving to good quarterbacks drafted in the first round since 2001 and what i saw as their issues or strenghts after the snap from the pocket. This is only referencing pocket skills NOT what happens after the ball leaves their hands. Note the more issues they have the more tendency to be a bust. Note the less issues they have the better they tend to pan out as players. Again this is my opinion but some may find alot of truth in this.
Quarterback / had issues with (using pocket skills matrix above) I don’t consider fails with # 4 or 5 to be that big of a deal.. but failures in 1 2 or 3 to be critcal and flatout no recovery from these weaknesses in order to be great.
numbers indicate areas of weakness
David Carr / 1 2 3 4 5
Joey Harrington / 1 3 4 5
Alex Smith / 1 3
Patrick Ramsey / 3 4 5
Carson Palmer / 3 4 5
Byron Leftwich / 3 4 5
Eli Manning /
Philip Rivers / 4 5
Ben Roethlisberger /
J.P. Losman / 1 3
Jason Campbell /
Micheal Vick / 1
Vince Young / 1 2 3
JaMarcus Russell / 1 2 3 4 5
Brady Quinn / 1 3
Matt Ryan / 3 4 5
Joe Flacco / 3
Matthew Stafford / 4 5
Mark Sanchez / 1 3 4
Josh Freeman / 3
Sam Bradford / 3 4
Tim Tebow / 2 3
Cam Newton /
Jake Locker / not enough snaps to evaluate
Blaine Gabbert / 1 2 3 4
Christian Ponder / 3
Jay Cutler /Again this is just pocket skills NOT any evaluation of reading a defense or projecting the football. This is a theme that i am seeing. And this is just me trying to express that.
This concerns me because i see Andrew Luck as grading with 1 3. Again this is just my best shot at expressing what i am seeing and why i put so much emphsis on pocket skills and what happens between the snap and before the ball is even thrown.
Griffin grades out as / 0 … some say he has happy feet because of that patty pat motion he does with his feet. But Peyton Manning does the samething so just seems like a mannerism more than a responds or a some type of sign of panic.
I would note to everyone how Newton was sacked 23 times at Auburn. (As i noted last year at this time he dealt with pressure very well.) Andrew Luck was sacked 23 times in his career at Stanford. RG3 was sacked 79 times in his career. Yet Griffin makes less mistakes with the football while under alot more pressure and throwing the ball 128 more career passing attempts than Luck…. 17 int for RG3 and 22 for Luck…. how is this possible? How can you throw less int while under more pressure with more volume of attempts too make mistakes on…. everyone that is pretty desent at math think about that for a moment… RG3 under significantly MORE pressure yet makes less mistakes while throwing the ball more. And we aren’t talking about dinkin and dunking we are talking about alot of down field high degree of difficulty throws by RG3.
There where many stories detailing how Newtons stats improved while he was under pressure or while teams blitzed him in college. His completion % went to from 66% too 70% in those situations at Auburn. And there is even a story about his responds to pressure in the pros How he was number one in the NFL in total QBR vs pressure/blitz…. THINK about that for a moment… a rookie….number 1 in the LEAGUE vs pressure…no really let that sink in…………….. I talked about that over and over and over. And that drum is the one i am beating right now. That horse just isn’t dead enough because no one is talking about this undeniable trait that totally and complete dictates the success or failure rate of a quarterback!!!!!!
So i do believe RG3 could have a Cam Newton like Season production wise. But not as a runner. I think RG3 would have to go to Miami Seattle or if Cleveland spends money on free agent recievers in order for him to have that type of season. Because of his skill sets he is more likely to carry a team with less talent around him because he is more creative in the pocket to creat chances in the passing game…something i think he is better at than Newton at this stage (if we are talking about both of them prior to a NFL snap)
I don’t compare these players based on just about anything anyone in the media or blogs have done. I compare them on their pocket skills and in that department Cam Newton and Robert Griffin are similiar and that too me is where it ends.
It is my belief that Andrew Luck will infact have the bigger adjustment. Because pressure is what defines the difference between the pros and college. Never in the modern history of pro football has a quarterback failed and we look back and say the following…..“if only he played under center”…. “if only he called his own plays in college”…. “if only he ran a pro style system”.
The reason why quarterbacks fail is because they can’t deal with the speed of a NFL pocket. That they fail to adjust to how much time they have and the bodies in their face compared to college. Robert Griffin has had too deal with NFL pressure already based on the fact he has had to deal with pressure and displayed special abilities from the pocket. Andrew Luck hasn’t been pressured in college at all. He has been really mistake prone verse pressure… so what happens when that 23 career sacks turn into 35 sacks in one year behind a Colts OL?
Cam Newton is still real clueless about reading a defense. But he is able to excute what he does know because he is unphased by bodies around him or blitzers or any type of pressure . Robert Griffin dealt with more pressure than Luck and Newton combined and threw the ball more than both yet where are the errors?.. where are the mistakes?
It is based off of my evaluation of how they deal with pressure that i believe RG3 is more advanced and MORE nfl ready than Andrew Luck. And these traits will show when you play the Raven and the Steelers when pressure doesn’t impact your offense because your quarterback is use too it and pressure in his face is normal….infact it could be a case where he sees less pressure in the pros than he did in college…. but then again Baylor didn’t all of a sudden win a bunch of recruitment battles.. just one >> RG3.
Sorry this was a post i made on CSR and i wanted to share it here.
I added some too it and i guess i could have made a fan post but for some reason i can’t. If someone can do it for me i would be Thankful. This is just a copy of what i had plus some other comments
I would, but it wouldn’t include the links.
When your computer quits acting up, post it as a FanPost. Would be great.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 18, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I forgot to add McCoy too this to give my perspective on the Browns situation
But again i do agree that McCoy would fail 1 2 3.
The reason why this is so is because NFL pressure is so much more intense. We saw a snapshot of how he deals with NFL pressure when Texas played Nebraska. McCoy was sacked often and could not adjust too the fact that his time to pass was cut in half.
This is a hugh warning sign to any NFL team that drafts a quarterback that has a really good OL in college and doesnt face pressure. NFL teams better look at the tape of this player when on the rare moments they are pressured because it will give you a good indicator.
I am currently looking for this data on the top 3 quarterbacks and their career quarterback pressures in college. I am willing to bet that RG3’s quarterback rating and stats are signifcantly better than Lucks …..i seriously believe RG3’s rating dwarfs Lucks while both are under pressure. I am still looking for this data.
Issues anticipating an receiver getting open
No, this is not correct. As Mayock pointed out, he doesn’t have issues anticipating an open receiver, he simply hasn’t had to do it yet. So the WORST thing Mayock found in his game tapes was that his ability to do so is UNKNOWN. Not an issue.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2012/02/16/sports/doc4f3c5dab00058173406425.txt
Second paragraph
“He said the only question he has about Griffin is his ability to anticipate a receiver getting open.”
"He doesn’t throw with anticipation, mostly because he doesn’t have to," Mayock said of Baylor’s spread offense that didn’t require the complicated reads necessary to succeed in the NFL. "He’s got great touch and accuracy medium and deep. He’s got arm strength, he’s got athletic ability, he takes hits. But he doesn’t anticipate throws. He waits until they develop and then throws them.
"My only question is, will he develop it? Where I think you’ll find it is throughout the process when teams meet with this kid and they sit down and they put the tape on and they break it down with him and talk football and ask him what he sees or doesn’t see."
So, once again, Mayock is not saying he lacks that ability. He is saying that RG3 hasn’t needed to present that ability yet, and teams will have to find out.
Steel Nick
Mayock quote: “What I don’t like about him, is he waits for routes to develop before he throws the football," Mayock says. "In other words, he lacks anticipations, and because of that he throws late into coverage and makes mistakes.”
Sound familiar? Well, this is his take on Ryan Tannehill. Maybe “lacks anticipation” is his buzzword of the week.
This post has been previewed and approved by me.
Cry havoc and and let slip the dawgs of war
This is the glaring problem with an RG3 to Cleveland debate. Especially when you add in having to trade away picks to get him. He his only 6’2" 220-225 pnds. He tends to run upright and he also has some awkward footwork. I think the injury question has to be brought up. So far he’s played for Baylor in the Big 12 in mostly dome and turf games. Big difference from playing in Cleveland with grass.
by gentryholdem on Feb 17, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
I really don’t think it’s an issue. He missed one season in college with a knee injury, and obviously isn’t suffering any ill effects. He gets hit a lot, and he gets up.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2012 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
Aaron Rodgers: 6’2 225lbs.
Rodgers has run the ball 250 times over the past 4 years and has 16 TD’s. No one seems to be worried about him lasting.
Odd.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 17, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah really. Rodgers isn’t big at all. He just knows when he can run and avoids the big hits. Smart QBs tend to do that.
by Brownie's Year on Feb 18, 2012 2:14 AM EST up reply actions
scrambles ... taking off and running during a designed pass play. The truth
Aaron Rodgers: 6’2 225lbs.
Rodgers has run the ball 250 times over the past 4 years and has 16 TD’s. No one seems to be worried about him lasting.
Odd.
Aaron Rodgers during designed pass plays took off and ran 58 times.
Cam Newton during designd pass plays took off and ran 49 times
So under the context of what most say a quarterback is a “running quarterback”. That context being that if they don’t see what they want they take off and run. Aaron Rodgers is more of a scrambler than Cam Newton….
in 2010 Newton at Auburn through 14 games scrambled 43 times
in 2010 Aaron Rodgers took off and ran during designed pass plays 56
I don’t have the data on the amount of scrambles for RG3. But it appears that most of his rushes are designed rushes. This important to note because it dispells the notion of him being a “run first quarterback”… and infact defines him being a passing quarterback that just so happens can run.
Who doesn’t want more capabilities? IF you don’t then just go ahead and take your truck back that has 4 wheel drive … or your pocket knifts… or all the addons on your computer… or coats with extra pockets. Having more capabilities is a good thing.
And Newton actually had more designed pass plays run last year. Was surprised by that honestly.
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If they deal with Washington, they don’t get Blackmon/Kalil.
We have some leverage in that if they want their top guy, they can either:
1. draft him at No. 2 and we get RG3 at No. 4
2. deal with the Browns rather than Washington
If St. Louis wants their guy in this draft, we’ll get RG3. The team St. Louis can take to the woodshed is Washington, where they’d have to give up so much more.
Every pick you go down in the draft will cost you more to move up, so there’s that. I’m also not too worried about Miami because if they don’t get Flynn or Peyton they’re actually okay at QB. So between Seattle and Washington, I think Washington is the team most likely to pony up what the Rams will require.
Steel Nick
We have more ammo than anyone else. No one else can give them the number 4 pick and another pick in the first round THIS YEAR. A first round pick this year is worth more than a first next year.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
we are going to need to use the 22. and it’s worth it.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 16, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
I think we can get by with 4th overall, second rounder and 4th rounder.
Just a hunch though.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 16, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll believe it when I see it…I’ll eat my laptop if your right….as long as I have some ketsup handy….kinda hope your right…hmmmm deep fried laptop
by Poppawolf on Feb 16, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Except that’s giving up another starter for us. 22nd pick is at least a five year starter for more than half of the NFL. Why so quick to give it away? For a 6’2" 220 pnd QB who has never played in cold weather and has little experience on natural grass? What is it with Browns fans continually wanting to trade up or trade away for QBs? McCoy with no weapons last year except Little (league rookie leader receptions.)
If RG3 is available at 4. If not pick our BPA or trade down.
by gentryholdem on Feb 17, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
Do you think the Chiefs would trade Brandon Albert and Glen Dorsey for Matt Ryan?
Those were the Chiefs two first round picks.
Think the Dolphins would trade Jason Allen and Ted Ginn for a QB?
Damn the price when you need a QB.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 17, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
if st louis wants a top five talent, they will take our 4 with say our 22nd or 2nd round pick before they take everything from washington. because to them its like getting who they would pick at 2..plus an extra high round pick. with washington, they cant do that. fingers crossed.
Exactly correct.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Except for the fact that if the guy they want is Matt Kalil he’ll be a Viking by the time they’re on the clock at #4.
which would be great then because we’d only have to switch with minny or stay at 4 and get RG3. To flip flop the 3/4th what would it take… a 3rd rounder? maybe 2 low picks?
If we’re using the same chart that says 4+22 is roughly equal to the 2, our 4 would leave us about 400 points short of the 3. So our 4th, then the 3rd round pick and something later.
But based on how these trades usually work, the Vikings would probably rather have our 4 and a second next year. I know I’d rather have one high pick instead of two lower picks.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2012 5:04 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
if they really think Kalil is for sure their guy and that the Vikes will take him, they won’t trade down anyways.
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I will be seriously pissed if we give up 22. And I’ll sit behind my computer and fume aboutit all year watching RGIII run for his life with no weapons besides a 2nd or 3rd round receiver. And I wouldn’t expect RGIII to last long given his playstyle.
by gentryholdem on Feb 17, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
I will be seriously pissed if we don’t do everything we can with the extra ammo we have this year to get a franchise QB. And I’ll sit behind my computer and fume aboutit all year watching Colt stink again despite the fact that we used our first round picks on a WR and a RT. And I wouldn’t expect Colt to last long given his poor playstyle.
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by Dawg Nuts on Feb 17, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Absolutely NO on RGIII
This offense has far too many weaknesses that need to be addressed before we determine our current qb isn’t the answer. Case in point, look back at the season we had on 07. We went 10-6 with freaking Derrick Anderson as the starting qb, but what did he have that no other qb since him has had, answer, he had one of the best offensive lines in the league protecting him, a 1300 yard rusher and a true #1 WR with a couple other solid ball catchers. If they do not fix the rest of the offense first, it doesn’t matter who is under center, this team will never be successful.
by Steve n NC on Feb 16, 2012 11:13 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Not quit sure what you mean by that but at what price are you willing to pay for this guy. Every year it’s the same ol thing, change the qb and our offensive woes will go away. Forget the fact that the right side of the line is less than weak, we haven’t had a true #1 WR since 07 and we lucked out in 2010 with Hillis. I just feel that the cost for getting this guy is too high.
The problem is also that these QBs all suck, not because we keep changing them.
As Mayock said, “most important position in sports”
Right, we change QBs because the previous one is always bad. I don’t mind if we keep changing until we find a good one.
you gotta have an offensive line to give you time to make your reads and wide receivers who can not only get open but actually hang on to the freaking football
RT baby. You can’t win without 5 pro-bowl linemen. It’s been proven time and time again.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
That’s not true at all. David Diehl was brutal this year, one of the worst LTs in football.
Steel Nick
Phew, I’d much rather have read that wrong than get into a whole sub thread argument.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2012 4:44 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
David Diehl was brutal this year, one of the worst LTs in football.
And that just proves why we can’t judge Eli Manning yet — until he gets a good offensive line, it is just unfair to judge that guy. So Colt McCoy and Eli Manning are basically the same. All of you wanting to give up on Colt would therefore want to give up on Eli too. See, magic, you are crazy.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
What? Two things- Our OL is better then NYG. Eli is better then Colt. Much better. Not even a competition. Eli has established himself as an “elite” QB.
Exactly — Eli is proof why we should not give up on Colt.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 17, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
I think everyone needs to check their sarcasm detectors.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
But what has not yet been disproven is that you can win the Super Bowl – over and over – if you field an all FB offense. I’m just sayin’.
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Several playoff teams with great QBs had worse o-lines than the Browns. We need to fix the right side, but that shouldn’t be a higher priority than quarterback. And it’s not even close, really.
by Jon @ DBN on Feb 16, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn’t even say right side, I think Pinkston will be fine at RG. If Pashos wasn’t made out of glass we’ld be looking good there too. We need a RT, which shouldn’t be too hard to find, there are a bunch of them this year. One guy I saw mocked to us in the 3rd in several mocks wasn’t even invited to the combine (Levy Adock)
Cheaper maybe, but I prefer drugs.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
you can say that again.
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Our O-line is better than Pittsburgh’s, Green Bay’s, and probably several other good teams. No playoff team had a left tack that could share a city block with Joe Thomas. Is our O-line perfect? Hell no. Is it average? No doubt. It’s arguably above average.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
The Browns have 3/5 of a great offensive line. They have a couple nice young guards who can play solid. The only thing they need is a RT and they don’t need to get that guy in the 1st round at all.
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I just feel that the cost for getting this guy is too high.
Why? Say we give up the number 22 pick to move up to get him. You think that pick was going to turn our offense around? Insane.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I totally agree. And it’s trading a “free” pick anyway… So many picks after that too.
"A drug person can learn to cope with things like seeing their dead grandmother crawling up their leg with a knife in her teeth. But no one should be asked to handle this trip." Thompson
Put it into even simpler terms: Would anyone here say no to a Blackmon and Mercilius for RG3 trade?
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 16, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Every year it’s the same ol thing, change the qb and our offensive woes will go away
The fact is that it is true — QB is not a position that you just ignore or settle on. If you don’t have your QB, you better be looking for one. Look at the Colts prior to finding Peyton Manning. They were changing QBs every few years because they couldn’t find a QB who didn’t suck or who could play more than one or two season without regressing to suckitude (see DA). Should they have just stopped trying?
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
QB is not a position that you just ignore or settle on. If you don’t have your QB, you better be looking for one.
Let’s also not pretend we’ve made more than one significant investment in the QB position since the return. They’ve all been stop gaps and lottery tickets since Couch. RG3 would represent the first significant move for a QB in 13 years.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Brady Quinn was a significant investment — a first and second round pick to get him seems like a big investment. It was a bad investment, yes, but it was still significant.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t really like Quinn at ND but was excited for the pick. I still think he could have been pretty good if groomed properly and didn’t always have some little injury just when he was building up some steam.
i continue to believe that if quinn had not held out in ‘07 we’d be having a very different conversation about his professional career.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 16, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I’m gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Lumberg?! Their kids would have hooves…
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 16, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How do you have any clue who flagged it?
Did you rec it and see that it said “flag? 1”?
XBL - TheRabbit087. Get at me.
by SpecialBrownie on Feb 17, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
To be completely honest, I was petrified when we took Quinn. Then the 2007 Season of Dreams happened with DA and I thought we were saved. When Anderson collapsed in 2008, I was convinced we were doomed for some time.
Why the hell didn’t we get something for Anderson when we had the chance.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2012 11:13 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
That is on Savage.
He had offers for Quinn and passed. I like Phil but that was a bad non-move.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 17, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
i agree. but that’s still only 2 tries in 13 years, and none in the last 5.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 16, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Except all of these other people want to trade away 22 to move up two spots.
by gentryholdem on Feb 17, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
What about the people that think the #22 pick is worth passing on a impact QB?
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 17, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
This was stated somewhere else, but its worth repeating. Would you trade Justin Blackmon and Whitney Mercilus for RG3? I couldn’t say yes fast enough.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 19, 2012 6:05 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
i mean … how many times can i do that deal? is there a shorter way to say “yes”? b/c i want to do that deal 12,000 times.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 19, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
This is just wrong. The OL is better then a lot of other out there. I believe adding 1 starter makes it a top 10, possibly top 5 range. Your QB has a lot to do with perceived effectiveness of OL play and can also hide “holes” in the offense. We need a QB that can elevate the play of those around him. Its the most important position in the game just because of how often he touches the ball.
by -bobby- on Feb 16, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Using this thought, in 07 did DA elevate the play of those around him or did those around him elevate his play
It really doesn’t matter, football is symbiotic. All the pieces have to work together. The only thing that needs to be considered is that elite QBs are mostly found high in the draft. Wide Receivers, RTs and RGs can be found in other rounds and free agency every single year. Also, the placement of the ball in the NFL is far different than in college. In college WRs have all sorts of space to adjust to a catch. NFL dbs and even lbs are much better and the ball has to be in the right location on their body in relation to the defender to give the WR a decent chance to catch it.
DA played out of his mind for most of 2007. He definitely elevated the players around him (and vice versa). Neither Braylon Edwards nor K2 have had as good a season since then, and they have had better QBs than the DA of every year but 2007. Clearly, DA v.2007 was part of their phenomenal 2007 seasons.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
I would add Jamal Lewis into that. Do any of us think he’s half as productive without that passing game?
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 16, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
It’s a shame the 07 Browns didn’t get a playoff shot.
by gentryholdem on Feb 17, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
who cares about a single, flash-in-the-pan season? da sucks at professional football quarterback playing, even if you include 2007. what difference does it make whether he elevated others or others elevated him?
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 16, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting thing – if you look at DA, whose OC was I think Chudzinski and then look at Cam, also OC Chudzinskli and if you think about it they were both sort of running that deep ball, no touch throw offense. It was when DA was asked to throw to routes of differing levels that he struggled and I wonder if Cam will too.
interesting point. cam’s development is going to be very good watching.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 16, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been thinking this for a while. I would play Cam like I would play Tebow; lots of quarters, CBs off, safeties up and looking to play run. Take the deep ball and the run away, give them underneath passes. Then from time to time play some more confusing coverages and try to pressure them.
Cam is living and dying on the deep ball and his athleticism from what I’ve seen.
Always liked Chud.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
watch rodgers, eli, brees, or brady, they throw it places that colt cant even imagine because colt lacks the arm stregnth. the fact that i watch another team and go “wow i didnt know that pass was possible” is enough for me to want a new QB.
really, you’re naming guys who’ve been on the same team with the same players and the same coaching staff for years, so yes they will make those plays because they have all had time to not only gel with their receivers but to also TRUST their receivers. I’m not saying Colt can make those throws but lets at least give him or whomeever we have someone to throw the ball too and time to make the throw
And in our never-ending effort to finally find the answer at RT. Never forget that RT is the most important position evahzzz!!!
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
All Colt needs is a RT to take us to the playoffs? I’m sold. Why are we even talking about this RG3 kid then?
by Brownie's Year on Feb 16, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
I know Brees was with the Saints for several years before he had that great 2006 season. Oh wait . . .
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Colt will get better if he and his receivers get on the same page—because they weren’t in 2011. But get real, you think Colt is a franchise QB based on what you’ve seen?
And if not, what makes you think Colt is more likely to magically transform into one than all of the other late round QBs out there?
I mean even if our WRs had zero drops last year, are you really that impressed?
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
by rufio on Feb 16, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I mean even if our WRs had zero drops last year, are you really that impressed?
this is so awesome and on point. rec.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 16, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
he looked good in preseason and I was thinking, maybe this kid is the answer and then the season started…how many touch downs did we get in the 1st quarter? two, three…I just do not see McCoy more than a back up for awhile..maybe he will get better…I’m tired of waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting….bring back Kosar!
As much as I would love to see Bernie sipping some Scotch on the sidelines, I don’t think he’s coming back.
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." - Aaron Levenstein
Alex Smith made throws this year I have not seen Colt make and he had turnover in terms of his weapons, and a whole new offense.
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I mean, I dont want to play the arm strength game. I really just think he cannot “see” the whole field. I doubt his field vision skills.
I think you’re right on here. Arm strength can be worked around, a lack of seeing the field and ability to throw a receiver open really can’t be worked around.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 16, 2012 6:43 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Arm strength can be worked around
Depends on how define arm strength, but I don’t think it can be worked around.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
How many ways are there to define and strength?
My basic point is that Chad Pennington and other noodle arms have been successful, but you need to have a great grasp of the offense, great accuracy, and great anticipation.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 16, 2012 6:59 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I meant arm strength, not and strength. Fail.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 16, 2012 6:59 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
i guess the point is that you don’t need the quarterback with the strongest arm in order to have the best quarterback.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 16, 2012 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
No but they have to be able to make all the required throws with some velocity or the offense has to be adjusted for them.
no question. i still think colt has enough arm strength to be an nfl qb … he just appears not to be able to make the throws consistently or see the field well enough to throw w/ the appropriate timing to make up for his lack of elite arm strength.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 16, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
You made our argument for us. DA had a great year, so the team had a great year. But also, when DA melted down in the 2nd Cincy game and we lost, that kept us out of the playoffs.
Our current OL isn’t that much worse than the OL was in 2007, and with Alex Mack it may be better at center. Joe Thomas is obviously still dominant (predictable, as the one true God).
A team’s fortunes are made or broken by the QB.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
RG3 is too short to be a franchise QB. If he was in last year’s draft where would he have been drafted? Second round?
Please tell me you’re joking. He’s the same size as Rodgers, Favre, bigger than Vick… If we took RG3 right now and put him in that draft, he goes in the top 5 easily.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 16, 2012 6:46 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
@Legoman0721 – I did a little more checking on this. I checked the H/W of 34 starting or otherwise notable QBs on the NFL site and only 12 of those are 6’2" or less (Brees, Dalton, Fitzpatrick, Flynn, Locker, McCoy, Ponder, Rodgers, Romo, Sanchez, Stafford, and Vick). Only 3 are less than 6’2" (Brees, Vick and McCoy). There are two things that I worry about regarding RG3: is he really 6’2" or is he shorter? Should the Browns use such a high pick to get him when the only two QBs from the list above that were drafted as high or higher were Stafford and Vick. Both are good QBs but not great. Also, I didn’t include the QBs for Seattle or Washington. I don’t recall who they were. Maybe I’ll look them up later.
I forget where I saw it, but Griffin was listed at 6’ 1.5". His height doesn’t matter if you’ve seen what he can do on the field.
by Brownie's Year on Feb 17, 2012 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
6’2’’ is still an “acceptable” size for a QB. You don’t need a 6’8’’ Osweiller or a 6’6’’ Derek Anderson.
Both are good QBs but not great.
It’s not really fair to stay Stafford is not yet “great”. He has had a total of 3 seasons to prove himself and has suffered from injuries, but been good when he played. If he puts up another season of 5,000 yards and 40 TDs, he probably is great though.
The reason height is an issue is because the QB needs to be able to find windows between the O-Lineman. Griffin is very mobile and his pocket awareness is great so I am not worried about his ability to find windows.
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I’d agree Stafford is legit but he’d look terrible if he wasn’t tossing moonballs to Megatron.
by gentryholdem on Feb 17, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
you realize that doesn’t make any sense, right?
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 17, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
megatron looked amazing this year with Stafford as his QB.
megatron set career highs in Catches, Yards, TDs, yards per catch, YAC average, and catch rate.
It was clearly his best season as a WR and it was his first with a QB who was playing extremely well all season. His YAC average improved 1.2 yards this year and his catch rate improved 4%. Sure, he has been improving every year, but it would be ignoring the most logical explanation to say he all of a sudden broke out into an even more insane player in his 5th year.
WR play is very dependent on the QB.
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I agree after this season. I want to see another season, but I really think he could be really great. At the very least, he has a very great season.
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If he was in last year’s draft where would he have been drafted?
First overall. Knowing what I know now, I would take Cam, but there were enough questions about Cam that RG3 I am positive would have went above him. As for the rest of the guys, no way in hell that they would go ahead of RG3. Blaine Gabbert? Locker? No way.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 16, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
RG3 is an superior passer today. Cam hasn’t shown a lot of ability to throw with the same level of touch on short and intermediate passes and still has not show the accuracy. He’s played in a modified offense on most a 3/4 wide field. I would love to have him, but I think RG3 has much more upside as a pro QB.
Your argument to not draft RG3 is Derek Anderson?
Is that what it has come to for the Colt supporters?
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 16, 2012 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been trying to stay out of this thread but the term “Colt supporters” is getting kind of old. It has been proven by at least 2 polls that about 75-80 percent of us would be happy with RG3. Could you use a term like “non-picker-giver-upper-supporters?” Which according to polls is also about 75-80 percent of us. It would be more PC.
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 19, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
but there’s no way around the fact that those who don’t want to trade picks to get rg3 (assuming that’s what it takes) are inherently supporting colt. or seneca wallace. you pick.
the alternative to trading up to get rg3 is another year of colt/wallace … aka quarterback suck-itude. the longer we wait to address the qb situation the longer we have to wait to be good at football.
by DontCallMeJoey on Feb 19, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
This is perfect.
Why did the Steeler fan grow a mustache? So he could look like his mother.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 19, 2012 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
You guys look alike and the only thing perfect in this world is your new sig.
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 20, 2012 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
Brian Sipe isn’t ANYTHING how I remembered him.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2012 11:34 PM EST via Android app reply actions 2 recs
Did all his posts get deleted? That’s a shame as ther was some funny stuff in those threads. What happened?
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 17, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
It was all a dream. You used to read Word Up magazine.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 17, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
SaltnPeppa and Heavy D up in the limousine!
by Boston Browns on Feb 17, 2012 2:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
While I agree there was some good stuff there, we do have rules against calling other posters “dumbass.”
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
by notthatnoise on Feb 18, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
I’m on-board the RG3 train with most, but what if he dropped to 4th and the Brown’s were offered a king’s ransom for the pick?
Depending on the trade partner, we’re talking about gaining multiple picks in 2012 and 2013 similar to the Julius Jones package (but from a worse-off team than the Falcons and thusly resulting in better future picks for the Browns).
In this scenario, the Browns could capitize on hot-prospect hype 2 years in a row while giving more picks for Heck to continue finding quality AND quantity.
by Boston Browns on Feb 17, 2012 12:58 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I wouldn’t do it. None of those extra picks fill the gaping hole at our most important position. And you can’t build a team around a quarterback before you know who the quarterback is.
Steel Nick
If RGIII is available at 4 I think we have to take him. But that locks us into WR at 22. And btw, we keep McCoy on roster to compete or backup.
by gentryholdem on Feb 17, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t agree that it locks us into WR at 22. It depends on who looks like they’ll be available at 37 and what we did in free agency. I’d be hard-pressed to pass on some of those mid-first DEs if they’re sitting at that pick.
I think my preference for the 22 goes Wright, BPA DE/LB, any other WR that isn’t Jeffery.
Steel Nick
I agree, just devil’s advocating again: Could the opportunity next year be better though? Did half of us even know RG3 until this past year played-out?
by Boston Browns on Feb 17, 2012 2:03 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Do you want to suck another season?Not that RG3 will fix it immediately, but Id rather show an attempt to get better and not draft in the top 10.
We might suck giving up our opportunity to draft some real talent twice in the first round. Which I beleive would be a real attempt at getting better. I will leave that decision to the men who know talent far more than we do.
"There's a gleem"
by ol skol dawg on Feb 17, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Sigh, hate this talk. So we’re going to draft RGIII and suddenly become good? NFL doesn’t work that way. Look up P Manning And Aikman’s rookie seasons.
by gentryholdem on Feb 17, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think most of us know better than to think just getting RGIII is going to turn this team around. Obviously we need to add lots of pieces before we even become a .500 team. But when the guy who might be that quarterback of the future is within our reach, we grab him. Then add the pieces later. We will still have enough draft choices this year to strengthen the roster. The Browns are also in good shape to score in free agency. Then we build the team for the next few years while RGIII learns the offense and we learn what RGIII can bring to the table. It seems reasonable that a 5 year plan means just that. We’re not going to fill every hole on the team this year and probably not next year. But Griffin is one helluva building block.
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Cry havoc and let slip the dawgs of war
by Kaner on Feb 17, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
This. If you do not think McCoy can be elite, you guarantee that your rebuilding is 1 year longer then it would have been. Im not saying Griffin=SB. Im saying getting Griffin could very well mean in 2-3 years we are competing for an AFCN title/playoff spot, instead of drafting in the top 10 because we still dont have a QB.
So wouldn’t that want you to get a good QB in here quick as possible?
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 17, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
We have a better supporting cast for a rookie QB than either of those situations.
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