My bottom five: '11 Browns starters.
by DawgsNHawgs on Feb 2, 2012 1:03 AM EST
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PrintThese are the first 5 starters I want to see an upgrade over. I view them as top priority but not quite in the same order. Offense first. (Assuming the Browns can re-sign Hillis and DQ.)
22. Scott Fujita (WLB): Somebody has to be at the bottom. Nothing personal Fuj. It's "Strictly Business". He looked quite slow to me in '11. Maybe the 3-4 is better for him. Seemed more interested in shaking the hands of tacklers, rather than making tackles. I'm undecided, leaning towards not, on Kaluka Maiava as a replacement.
21. Shawn Lauvao (OL): Failed to meet, already low, expectations. With a healthy Steinbach, his replacement is already on the roster. However, I am interested in adding another pro-bowl potential lineman to the right side. Adding another lineman also acts as a back up plan, in case Steiny is a 'no-go'. I like Glenn and Decastro a lot in the draft. But if an equal caliber lineman can be obtained else where, I'm fine with that. If Pinkstons expectations were the lowest of the lineman, that would be highly-impressive. (Then, if McCoy fails in '12, we won't need 3 years to evaluate the next QB. If he succeeds, expectations for the offense go way up.)
20. Mike Adams (FS): Not a great tackler and doesn't appear to have a 'strong' nose for the ball. I thought he was in the wrong place at the wrong time more often than the other starting DBs. His replacement may already be on the team. There's a couple decent prospects in the draft. Worse case scenario, let him go and bring Elam back. Otherwise, re-sign him to a 1 year deal.
19. Mohamed Massaquoi (1WR)**: Also failed to meet expectations, again. His replacement MUST be a true #1 with all-pro caliber potential.
18. Sheldon Brown (RCB): I like him but there is quite a bit of talent coming out at his position. An young equally talented CB to play opposite of Lil' Joe could only be seen as a good thing.
Notable mentions: 17. Jayme Mitchell (RDE): Expecting Marcus Benard to, at the very least, compete for 'chunks' of playing time. 16. Depth (Everywhere). 15. Colt McCoy (QB): I have depth before McCoy because if we need to draft a QB next year, it may be expensive to turn a top 10 into a top 3.
I don't know if they can upgrade all 5, plus depth, for the '12 season, but I see no reason why H&H can't address most of them. I'm fine with retaining any of these guys for depth (not so much for Lauvao). They would be an improvement there. (MoMass for R.Windsor anyone?)
**My #1 priority.
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i mean, i want to see improvements at all these positions but your priorities seem off to me.
"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"
Ugh.
Jayme Mitchell is a bigger priority for replacement than every single one of the others mentioned here.
Once you start comparing a QB to Drew Brees, you've lost the argument.
by TheDriveStillHurts on Feb 2, 2012 2:05 AM EST reply actions
Ugh? It’s a top 5 list of my worst current starters up. Not an order of positional needs. For example: I think Fujita is the Browns’ worst starter but a WLB is more like 3rd or 4th in order of priority, IMO. I gave Mitchell serious consideration and probably should have flip flopped him with S.Brown. (Then you could ‘go to work’ finding his replacement 2nd if you like.) Hence, the notable mention. Thinking and hoping M.Benard can replace him, lowers the priority, just a little, of finding a replacement for RDE. Again, I only gave 1 order of priority. 1WR. I’m totally fine with whatever order the other positions get addressed. So long as they eventually get addressed.
Well see now I really disagree. Mitchell is easily our worst starter, probably followed by Luvao. Colt and massaquai are probably worse than fujita as well cus at least fujita understands what’s happening and helps make those around a little better. He just is crud in coverage.
"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"
you easily should have flip flopped him with Brown. Brown wasn’t too bad this year overall.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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by bross09 on Feb 2, 2012 5:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No effin doubt
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 2, 2012 2:35 AM EST up reply actions
Also, and people may disagree, MoMass is currently our best WR.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 2, 2012 2:38 AM EST reply actions
Not saying you’re right or wrong but how do you figure
"It is unlikely that anyone has ever read Nietzsche or Derrida and has been inspired to open a soup kitchen"
He gets about as much separation as Little with fewer drops. Neither were very good this year. I know he had less catches but he had way more YPR.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 2, 2012 2:59 AM EST up reply actions
sadly, he doesn’t have fewer drops.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
Wow, I thought he did. I stand corrected.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 2, 2012 9:01 AM EST up reply actions
im fairly certain that you were sitting down when you typed that.
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
fairly hog certain
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
by Kimble_79 on Feb 2, 2012 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well, when I got up to use the john, that was when I stood corrected and erected. As of now I sit corrected with no erection.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 2, 2012 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe that would have sounded less weird if I used “upright”
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 2, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
maybe he did have fewer, but I was also thinking as a % of total targets. momass wasn’t much better and his catch rate was in fact lower, I believe right around 46%.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
Follow @BRoss2013
I could see him in the slot with Little and whoever’s new being 1-2.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 2, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
Carlton Mitchell can only hang around so long.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
It’d be cool if at least one of them did.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 3, 2012 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
I would change your order considerably. As the bottom 5 starters I say it ranks like this (in your ranking system):
22. Colt- QB needs to make other offensive players better, Colt does not. Higher expectations for QBs because of their premier position.
21. MoMass/Little- Agree starting WR was abysmal.
20. Mitchell- I think he was a huge problem in run D, and didnt show his “best pass rusher” claim at all.
19. Lauvao- No complaints, he was pretty bad got beat consistently. But as you say Steinbach will probably take over, maybe Greco (I saw overall OL improvement with Greco in breifly over an injured Lauvao).
18. Hillis/OBGYN- Hillis partially due to injury, but starting RB was down this year. I do not think this means it is a position of need since we hopefully add a healthier Hillis and BJackson next year.
Now, if I rank positions of need top 5, I think my list looks different. Heres my top 5 position list of need-
1. QB
2. WR (ya no difference there)
3. RT- Pashos is too slow to block the run. RG may be replaced on the roster, but RT cannot. we need someone else here.
4. RDE- Mitchell is gone IMO. Bernard/Stephens (?) will not get it done consistently. Improving RDE will improve the whole run D.
5. OLB- I think Fujita has another year here, but it would be nice to get his replacement to learn form him for a year.
I do not endorse this list – more players need to be on it.
It wasnt a list in order of who sucked the most. It’s a list of what we should be looking at to fix. DE & LB play on the D needs to improve, as does the CB/S play. Our O line/WR/RB/QB play all stunk too, and there are good prospects in the draft for us to grab a hold of, but we need a few more “Quality” picks to get them.
A bargain is something you don't need at a price you can't resist....
If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong!
My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch!
Thats where you have to use FA better and the Browns do not.
by kamasutraman_007 on Feb 4, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
If there were more players on the list, then it wouldn’t be a “bottom 5”
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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by bross09 on Feb 5, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I disagree across the board. I’m with you on the upgrades, but feel completely different on priority. I’ve been back and forth with the idea of go all out for a QB this year, but I think I’ve settled that it is the biggest priority for us. Do what we have to in order to land our QBOTF. Things seem to turning around for Cleveland. We drafted heavily on the defensive side of the ball and you could see a marked improvement this year. We did little to add to the offense. Should we ignore our QB situation and go another year with McCoy, add talent to the offense around him and go 8-8 next year. How hard will it then be, or what will be the price to move high enough up in the draft to get our QBOTF when/if McCoy isn’t the guy? We have so many picks in this years draft that it is probably our best opportunity to make a move on a starting QB.
Beyond that rant, I would put them in this order…QB, WR, DE, LB, OL, S
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
Things are definitely turning for the Browns. We’ve had fewer players to complain about the last couple of offseasons. If McCoy goes 8-8, does that prove we will need a QB in ‘13? If so, and a “move” has to be made to obtain a QB, how is trading multiple picks in the current draft ’better than’ trading future picks?
Because to me a giving up multiple #1 picks over a 2yr period hurts more than giving up 2 #1 picks in one year, IMO.
"They kept throwing it at me. I don’t know why. They just kept trying, and I just kept knocking it down." -- Joe Haden
Turning? How do you figure that? What record are you looking at? Come to reality… we’re in the seller and we’re not getting out of it until we start doing some smart gambling as an organization. “Filler” players from the draft will not get us anywhere, but where we’ve been. Picking early in the draft.
by kamasutraman_007 on Feb 4, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
How do I figure that? That was the basis of my comment: “We have fewer players to complain about”. LOL There’s no such thing as “Smart gambling”. There is however, ‘smart investing’. Gambling is a form of entertainment. I don’t want my GM ‘entertaining himself’ at the expense of the fans. We’ve had ‘gamblers’ running the personnel before. They’re the ones that put the Browns in the hole that H&H are trying to dig us out of. Nowhere did I mention “filler” players. I thought my comment implied that, we had fewer of these.
I agree with the sentiment that building through the draft is the way to go, but your distinction between gambling and investing is a semantics argument that isn’t even necessarily correct. Investing is just what wealthy people call gambling.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
I’m pretty sure, you got it backwards. Obviously, any investment is a gamble. The wealthy ‘invest’ their savings because they can afford to hire the ‘experts’ to handle their investments. For the upper-middle class this reduces the risk/gamble. For the Uber-wealthy, this practically erases the gamble because their ‘experts’ are the ones controlling the markets, with their $$$. (The ‘house’ always’ wins.)
The 401k crowd (blue collar America) which I am a part of, ‘gamble’ with their investment savings because we’re usually on the wrong side of the trade.
Wealthy Gamblers ‘place their bets’ in/on the same games as the ‘non-wealthy gamblers’. They only place larger bets.
Actually you can control your 401k investments to the point where there is literally no gamble involved all. You can target your funds to a market which is guaranteed to not lose money at all, you just won’t get a lot of return. Like NTN said, a lot of wealthy people gamble their discretionary funds on more high risk investments with promises of high returns. Where I disagree is that they don’t call it gambling. They see it as investment with guaranteed returns. A lot of them will get suckered into promises of high returns with no real understanding that they are in fact gambling. When they lose, they cry bloody murder and expect everyone else to feel sorry for them and even bail them out. Most investors, 401K or otherwise, try to mitigate their risk by diversifying. In terms of drafting, gambling on a blue chip prospect like Luck or Griffin is worth the investment while gambling on Tannehill or Weeden has a higher bust rate, which is why you mitigate total failure by not betting next years returns on them. Of course if you take no chances then you’re going to be stuck living of SSI. Have fun with that.
unless you are talking a CD, bonds, or a couple other things, all investments are essentially legalized gambling.
they can afford to hire the ‘experts’
the fact that they are experts means generally their portfolios they manage make money for the investors, but a significant amount of the time they don’t. Their “expertise” just means it’s better odds than chance.
Really, I’d say counting cards in blackjack is less of gambling than even “high roller” portfolios…
But this is getting way too off topic.
The draft is a gamble, but since these guys are “experts” like the people managing those portfolios, they have a better chance at doing well than you or me…but they still screw up a lot (even the most skilled of gms)
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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The wealthy ‘invest’ their savings because they can afford to hire the ‘experts’ to handle their investments.
All those experts do is make the odds better. It’s still a gamble.
That wasn’t really my point though. My point was that “investing” is just another type of gambling, no matter what you’re investing in.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
That’s why I first said,
Obviously, any investment is a gamble.
"...and Dawggone it, people like me".
I agree with this. I study the stock market, it’s just gambling. my grandma does that and plays bridge for money.
I teach good life choices. That's why I almost didn't graduate high school.
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Worst starters:
22: Lauvao easily tops the list because he cost us yards with a plethora of penalties, screwed up the run game by blocking poorly, and miserably failed to give McCoy any time in the pocket. IMO any 5th round OG could do what he does and be potentially better at it. I suggest we draft an OG in later rounds to compete to start.
21: Massaquoi had no where near enough catches to be a No. 1 and yet there he is sitting high upon the pile of crap that is our WRs. The only person threatening his position as starter is Little, WR must be addressed this year… hopefully twice, draft and FA.
20: Adams is just not up to par at safety.
19: Brown should probably take Adams job. He is a fine player with experience but could be replaced with a younger, quicker CB.
18: Phasos’s injuries cannot be overlooked. If your starter is consistently missing time due to injury at one of the least injury prone positions in the game he needs to be replaced or moved down the depth chart.
17: Fujita has huge value on this team. He has the most experience of all our LBs and he’s probably willing to be the No. 2 WLB. I think his biggest down side is that he’s used to the 3-4 and doesn’t look as good in coverage. Fujita should stay on the team but needs to be demoted.
I think Mike Adams isn’t as bad as you say, and I also think he has a pretty good nose for the ball. He did lead the team in interceptions last season. I think his problem is that he just doesn’t have the athletic ability that we would like to see in a starter. I’d love to keep him as depth.
Also, I see this a lot around here and I don’t like it. This isn’t a video game. We can’t sign every FA we want. We can’t just say “Let’s get Abe Elam back” as if we just have to snap our fingers and he’ll come running.
Elam is also an FA and he will go where the best offer comes from. Which, IMO, won’t be too great of a cost to top.
FYI: I haven’t played a Madden game since the original. lol
Considering that he followed Rob Ryan to Dallas, why would he want to return to Cleveland? I know that money talks, but I think we’d have to pay significantly more than another team to get him.
Why? Because it’s Cleveland? That can be said about all FAs. lol It’s sad but true.
Or, because he didn’t get an offer last year? Players shouldn’t be begrudging over that. In the NFL that’s just business as usual.
He’s much better suited to strong safety, and we have one of those.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
This, and the fact that we didn’t do enough to retain him the first time, and he has no ties whatsoever to any of our coaches.
by Legoman0721 on Feb 2, 2012 11:05 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Elam is also an FA and he will go where the best offer comes from. Which, IMO, won’t be too great of a cost to top.
FYI: I haven’t played a Madden game since the original. lol
Elam is also an FA and he will go where the best offer comes from. Which, IMO, won’t be too great of a cost to top.
FYI: I haven’t played a Madden game since the original. lol
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
Elam is also an FA and he will go where the best offer comes from. Which, IMO, won’t be too great of a cost to top.
FYI: I haven’t played a Madden game since the original. lol
Dawgs by Nature -- where Montario Hardesty, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by North Coast Flea on Feb 2, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Did I?
Dawgs by Nature -- where Montario Hardesty, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by North Coast Flea on Feb 2, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
I was only doing the DBN “repeat a double post” meme; but then you replied to it. Kinda funny.
Resident Tim Couch Apologist.
Yeah, I was keeping the chain going. Since yours was a reply to his I made mine a reply to yours.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Montario Hardesty, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by North Coast Flea on Feb 3, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I was keeping the chain going. Since yours was a reply to his I made mine a reply to yours.
We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 3, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
20. Mike Adams (FS): Not a great tackler and doesn’t appear to have a ‘strong’ nose for the ball. I thought he was in the wrong place at the wrong time more often than the other starting DBs.
This just isn’t right at all. Mike Adams is a great depth guy and a career backup, only thrust into a starting role by injuries for one thing. Another is that for a career backup, Mike Adams had a really good season. If anything, it should be Usama Young on the list.
Dawgs by Nature -- where Montario Hardesty, apparently, 'did some good things'.
by North Coast Flea on Feb 2, 2012 12:02 PM EST reply actions
Usama wasn’t the starter for most of the season. Adams made the list of worst starters because he is a backup, at best.
I have to disagree here. 1 in general, I do not think you can say S was in the bottom 5 of starters at all to begin with, because from every stat and metric out there they were top notch tackling and one of the pass D was top 5 (albeit debatable if its deserved). Also, Young started half of the games.. and played a decent amount over that.
Usama wasn’t the starter for most of the season. Adams made the list of worst starters because he is a backup, at best.
Sheldon Brown is a good corner still. He obviously doesn’t have a lot left, but I don’t think it’s necessary we replace him right away.
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway
I agree with you completely. I see my error in having J.Mitchell ahead of him. It was close for me to decide my 18th best starter. I changed my mind within minutes of posting my list. The only reason Brown was part of the discussion is because I like 16 other starters ahead of him. That goes a long way in saying how much I like this team. If we can improve the 5 starters worse than Sheldon, so he becomes the 22nd best, I’ll have nothing to complain about, when it comes to the roster. Except maybe if McCoy isn’t to far ahead of him.
I was wondering if I was the only person who is totally cool with Sheldon as a starter next season.
If he gets replaced, I’m cool, but the guy can still play.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
I’m willing to settle with Brown starting another year if we means we’re not picking a CB at 4th overall.
He’s decent now, but another staple of successful teams is not waiting until a guy’s tank is empty to find his replacement. I’d like another CB in the fold by the end of the draft.
Steel Nick
I’m high on Iloka. Plays CB and FS.
When you consider more things from all angles, you'll get more things from all angles. We'll be kicking ourselves if we don't get Burflict.
by The New Kardiac Kids on Feb 5, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think that’s what we did with Patterson and Skrine last season.
By the time Brown’s wheels come off (which happens in a hurry with CB’s) we have to young guys that have been in the system for a few seasons. I really like Patterson.
I wouldn’t hate adding another CB in this draft, but I see many more positions we need to worry about more than Sheldon Brown.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
I agree completely with your last sentence, and although I’m not completely sold on our young DBs’ futures, I do recognize the potential depth.
Steel Nick
I’m much higher on Patterson than others around here.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 5, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
They’re both pretty cool. Don’t forget about Dockery. That kid battled injuries but came back to make some nice plays at the end of the year.
He looked very good in the preseason if I am remembering correctly.
by Bernie19Kosar on Feb 7, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
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